Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Void · 2024-07-06 05:54:47

If it proved sensible to burrow into the ice caps of Mars for various helpful effects, then at the boundary of the thicker ice caps, it may be possible to access the base rock of the planet under the ice. So then warmer habitats could be cut into the rock.

At this "Junction Ring" for each ice cap, also "Air-Loops" might be implemented. These could be "Greenhouse Plenums": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plenum_space

Greenhouses are usually considered to be like a building and not a pipeline. But these "Greenhouse Plenums" might be like a transparent pipeline. The primary loops would likely be low pressure relative to the ambient pressure of Mars at those locations. They would probably be in the form of a continuing arch. Martian Atmosphere could be humidified and pushed into one end of a loop. Then out of the outer end we should hope to get some Oxygen generated by extreme photo organisms. The average surface pressure of Mars is currently about 5.5 mbar. In time that might be doubled. A Greenhouse Loop might have an internal pressure a bit more than that.

Methods to handle the deterioration of Plastic Films will be desired. The Martian environment is harsh.
Quotes from post #1:

Dealing with UV light on Mars: (Post #1563)
This reference which discusses a 3 layer plastic inflatable dome method, includes materials from SeaDragon:
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 08#p218208
Another UV reference:
Dealing with UV light on Mars:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 06#p204806

Here we also have a method to convert UV light into visible light perhaps: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 45#p224845

So this Greenhouse Loop method may allow distribution of water vapor on Mars. The interior would be designed to support very extreme forms of Photo Life. Some of these organisms might be "Bio formed".

One such organism to seek to optimize would be this one: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … dd02&ei=11

Cyanobacteria may make the list and be more quickly altered to optimize adaptation to a Greenhouse Loop environment.

Some Antarctic Lichens may be suitable as well.

Some of these organisms can get moisture directly out of the air, without an apparent liquid phase.
https://www.antarctica.gov.au/about-ant … 0by%20snow. Quote:

Lichens have adaptations that enable them to survive in Antarctica. They are able to exhibit net photosynthesis while frozen at temperatures as low as −20 °C. They can absorb water from a saturated atmosphere when covered by snow.
Lichens – Australian Antarctic Program
www.antarctica.gov.au/about-antarctica/plants/lichens/
www.antarctica.gov.au/about-antarctica/plants/lichens/

The interior of a Greenhouse Loop could be improved by the injection of Moisture, and the supply of needed nutrients.
However most extreme organisms are slow growing. So, Bioforming might be used to try to both further adapt the life forms and to also promote a higher growth rate.

Bioforming: https://terraforming.fandom.com/wiki/Bioforming

A "Greenhouse Loop" might be expected to give a return of Oxygen and Biomass, for the investment of water vapor and nutrients and the protective structure.

The "Greenhouse Loops" might also convey water to locations where higher-pressure greenhouses to grow other plants could be implemented.

Oxygen and Organic materials collected to the ice cap tunnel system could be put into long term storage, so as to provide for a better long-term source of life support for humans and their machines on Mars.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-07-06 06:33:11)

Void · 2024-07-14 19:37:32

This article should be read in its entirety: https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medica … r-BB1jZzvi
Quote:

Mirror
256.6K Followers
Man who lived 100 days underwater claims he 'de-aged 10 years' — but suffered odd side effect
Story by Emilia Randall • 4mo • 3 min read

Well, it may be that there could be some benefits. Generally, we think of a lesser pressure in space, but maybe temporary or permanent higher pressure might be preferred in the future.

On Mars, you would need 200 to 300 feet of water above you. Or those numbers divided by .9 for water ice.

For Rock tunnels you could also go to higher pressures.

I don't know of course how this would really pay out in the stretch of time of the future, but it is interesting.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-07-14 19:39:29)

Void · 2024-07-19 11:40:30

The materials of these posts: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 13#p225213 https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 18#p225218

Are of future interest in this topic.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-07-19 11:41:50)

Void · 2024-07-26 15:03:26

I think that this could matter a lot in space, and on Mars: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtwY5mlSlHc
Quote:

China's Epic Uranium Breakthrough: Unlimited Oceanic Uranium Energy!
WealthScope
1.45K subscribers

For Mars, I have long suggested polar seas. The water may have Uranium to extract, and the Uranium may provide energy to keep the seas melted.

In this case we may not have to put coverings on the seas, as any evaporation from ice will lead to precipitation at the poles.

In reality I suggest multiple bodies of water, with the use of frozen permafrost partitions. So, if one small body of water gets contaminated, it can be allowed to freeze over until the radioactive decay reduces the threat. But actually, new reactor technology should be less prone to these concerns.

Uranium has been suggested in many ways to power spacecraft. It may be better than Fusion will ever be. But Fusion may ultimately be good on Mars in stationary power plants. In that case Uranium taken from the seas of Mars could be dedicated to spacecraft.

Access to the sea water of some small outer moons may also provide Uranium in a similar way.

Eventually I expect large asteroid cores to be mined to provide such fuels.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-07-26 15:12:01)

Void · 2024-07-26 22:10:46

In some weird old Sci Fi books, I recall mention of the ice caps being turned into a sort of dome. I want to head into a similar direction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martian_polar_ice_caps
Quote:

The caps at both poles consist primarily of water ice. Frozen carbon dioxide accumulates as a comparatively thin layer about one metre thick on the north cap in the northern winter, while the south cap has a permanent dry ice cover about 8 m thick.[2] The northern polar cap has a diameter of about 1000 km during the northern Mars summer,[3] and contains about 1.6 million cubic km of ice, which if spread evenly on the cap would be 2 km thick.[4] (This compares to a volume of 2.85 million cubic km (km3) for the Greenland ice sheet.) The southern polar cap has a diameter of 350 km and a thickness of 3 km.[5] The total volume of ice in the south polar cap plus the adjacent layered deposits has also been estimated at 1.6 million cubic km.[6] Both polar caps show spiral troughs, which recent analysis of SHARAD ice penetrating radar has shown are a result of roughly perpendicular katabatic winds that spiral due to the Coriolis Effect.[7][8]

Presuming water, 2 km = 6561.67979 feet. A foot of water on Mars has a water column pressure of about 10 mbar. 100 feet of water then has a water column pressure of about 1 bar. So, 6561 / 100 = 65.61 bars. But it is ice so 65.61 * .9 = 59 bars.

Thats a lot of pressure.

But if the troughs are not as thick, maybe 25 bars of pressure are available.

My notion is to carve vaults in the ice all the way down to bedrock. Strong supports would definitely be needed.

But you could have a vault almost 1 km in height.

Here then is such a notion:

Over time however continuing removal of ice to make vaults may cause Mars Quakes which may damage the structures. So, not a perfect plan, but an interesting one, I feel.

Maybe it is only Sci Fi level, maybe someone can do better?

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-07-26 22:49:01)

Void · 2024-07-27 10:49:15

In the previous post, it can be noted that rather than flashing heat to the universe directly, waste heat would be disposed of by sinking it into fossil cold ice of the ice caps. The liquid water would then be exported to create seas at somewhat lower latitudes.

Nuclear fission is attractive for this system.

However, other sources of energy might be very welcome. Local and periodic solar, space solar power beamed, and also nuclear fusion.

While the lakes and seas that could be created around the ice cap cities, might be ice open to evaporation, it may make sense to put protective cover on them of some type.

This then is a modification of the original:

The hope would be that the materials extracted to make the vaults in the crust of Mars, could be used to make structure in the ice vaults to keep them from collapsing and to make them more useful.

In the case of an "Interior Hill Cone Vault", imagine an Aztec Pyramid inside of an open cone vault.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerican_pyramids
Image Quote:

I suppose that sandstone might be preferred to build such vaults. It is possible that if the polar areas were wet at some time sandstone might have been deposited in some situations.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-07-27 11:14:05)

Void · 2024-07-28 13:37:46

The previous is sort of largely underground except for the lakes and seas, I suggest building. Some of those could have sunshine enter them by various means.

Here is something that emerged and is in the process of being forgotten: https://www.sciencealert.com/nasa-might … es-on-mars Image Quote:

So, in this way various transparent materials and also, I suppose opaque materials may be used to build surface structure. Using water ice of course may favor higher latitude places.

Last edited by Void (2024-07-28 13:43:37)

Void · 2024-07-28 14:18:51

This is not construction blueprints but may suggest some pathways to tilt towards:

A canal might receive makeup water from the polar ice caps, where ice is being melted to make ice vaults under the ice caps. Some of the methods of the previous post might be employed.

The Martian seasons being close to twice as long, then the Midnight Sun would be favorable to the operation of this sort of thing seasonally, perhaps.

Photosynthesis could be facilitated to some extent. However, in advance technology, probably chemical farming would produce most food.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-07-28 14:22:12)

Void · 2024-07-30 11:11:42

While I have pondered the direct habitation of the ice caps, glaciers and ice sheets at lower latitudes are also of interest.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glaciers_on_Mars
Quote:

Studies have shown that when the tilt of Mars reaches 45 degrees from its current 25 degrees, ice is no longer stable at the poles.[43] Furthermore, at this high tilt, stores of solid carbon dioxide (dry ice) sublimate, thereby increasing the atmospheric pressure. This increased pressure allows more dust to be held in the atmosphere. Moisture in the atmosphere will fall as snow or as ice frozen onto dust grains. Calculations suggest this material will concentrate in the mid-latitudes.[44][45] General circulation models of the Martian atmosphere predict accumulations of ice-rich dust in the same areas where ice-rich features are found.[42] When the tilt begins to return to lower values, the ice sublimates (turns directly to a gas) and leaves behind a lag of dust.[46][47] The lag deposit caps the underlying material so with each cycle of high tilt levels, some ice-rich mantle remains behind.[48] The smooth surface mantle layer probably represents only relative recent material.

The above may be significant to forecast early terraform potentials for Mars. Also to understand the history of ice on Mars and its current presence.

As an example, Hellas may have glaciers that could be habitable: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellas_Planitia
Quote:

Possible glaciers
Tongue-shaped glacier in Hellas Planitia. Ice may still exist there beneath an insulating layer of soil.
Close-up of glacier with a resolution of about 1 meter. The patterned ground is believed to be caused by the presence of ice.
Radar images by the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter (MRO) spacecraft's SHARAD radar sounder suggest that features called lobate debris aprons in three craters in the eastern region of Hellas Planitia are actually glaciers of water ice lying buried beneath layers of dirt and rock.[17] The buried ice in these craters as measured by SHARAD is about 250 m (820 ft) thick on the upper crater and about 300 m (980 ft) and 450 m (1,480 ft) on the middle and lower levels respectively. Scientists believe that snow and ice accumulated on higher topography, flowed downhill, and is now protected from sublimation by a layer of rock debris and dust. Furrows and ridges on the surface were caused by deforming ice.
Also, the shapes of many features in Hellas Planitia and other parts of Mars are strongly suggestive of glaciers, as the surface looks as if movement has taken place.

This article contains an interesting map: https://www.antarcticglaciers.org/glaci … s-on-mars/ Image Quote:
Finding Hellas on that map:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geology_of_Mars
Image Quote:
Quote:

40°S latitude
The Hellas Depression on Mars is an enormous, circular impact basin located in the southern hemisphere. It is the second largest confirmed impact structure on the planet, centered at about 64°E longitude and 40°S latitude1. The Hellas quadrangle covers the area from 30° to 65° south latitude and 240° to 300° west longitude2.

So, these two maps together help me understand much better. If I understand it, then Hellas may have glaciers within its depths, and around it's perimeter.

Here is a nice article about ice in Hellas: https://marspedia.org/Hellas_quadrangle
The seasonal ice caps in Hellas are a concern, this article gives a bit of understanding: https://www.psi.edu/blog/new-maps-of-se … te-models/

What I would find to be ideal would be a glacier deep down in Hellas where the winter accumulation of CO2 would be minimal. Hard to find a map for that so far.

This is useful stuff, but still not clear to me: https://tharsis.gsfc.nasa.gov/snow_paper.html

Well, so far unable to get the quality of information on the Hellas Depression as per CO2 precipitation. But I am happy to see that glaciers seem to be more to the North of the basin, and the North should be relatively sheltered from extensive CO2 ice in the winter.

So, when glacier dwelling methods might be developed it may start in the north of Hellas, at a favorable depth of atmosphere. This will favor the ability to land ships/cargo, and also radiation protection.

While piping liquid water and water vapor around could be options, the transport of Methane could also be favorable for distribution of Hydrogen to remote locations such as mineral deposits, where water is insufficient.

Of course, we also know that there is ice near the Martian equator as well. So, pipelines may be a thing. For instance, where I have suggested vaults in the ice, perhaps air could be stored in them and so then Methane and air would be piped around all over the planet, to support diverse economic activities.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-07-31 10:27:33)

Void · 2024-07-30 12:27:55

To build on the previous post, if an Oxidizer and Methane were piped to a location of economic activity, the results of combustion would include water. Even a truck's ice engine would have an output of water to capture for use.

For pipelines I suggest Basalt, as elsewhere suggested by Calliban. In laying the pipe, I suggest embedding the pipe in muddy ice to help seal the internal pressure. Vapor barriers on top of that, and then a dry fill on top of that.

Vaults in the ice could probably be used to store cryogenics fluids, including air and Oxygen and Methane of course. It may be economical to create these liquids and then to use the heat from the process of the creation of the liquids to heat something.

https://www.indiamart.com/proddetail/ca … 99091.html
Image Quote:

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-07-30 12:37:55)

Void · 2024-07-30 14:31:49

There are various ways to get the Methane and Oxygen/Air desired.

For the moment I might mention getting organic materials from photosynthesis. Perhaps water at -2 degrees C in covered ponds may do. This also would produce Oxygen/Air.

The organic materials could be stockpiled, and Perchlorate could be mined and stored as well, for a situation where new production of materials by photosynthesis was impeded, such as a major dust storm.

But Liquid Oxygen/Air could be stored longer term as well.

Organic materials could be processed to produce Mushrooms as food and also Methane in digesters.

Of course, non-organic methods to produce the gasses also would be an option.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-07-30 14:33:06)

Void · 2024-07-31 10:24:26

https://worldmapgeo.com/latitude-and-longitude-map/

The above article indicates that the map is free:
Image Quote:

From Post #1759, quote:

This article contains an interesting map: https://www.antarcticglaciers.org/glaci … s-on-mars/ Image Quote:
Finding Hellas on that map:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geology_of_Mars
Image Quote:
Quote:
40°S latitude
The Hellas Depression on Mars is an enormous, circular impact basin located in the southern hemisphere. It is the second largest confirmed impact structure on the planet, centered at about 64°E longitude and 40°S latitude1. The Hellas quadrangle covers the area from 30° to 65° south latitude and 240° to 300° west longitude2.
So, these two maps together help me understand much better. If I understand it, then Hellas may have glaciers within its depths, and around it's perimeter.
Here is a nice article about ice in Hellas: https://marspedia.org/Hellas_quadrangle
The seasonal ice caps in Hellas are a concern, this article gives a bit of understanding: https://www.psi.edu/blog/new-maps-of-se … te-models/
What I would find to be ideal would be a glacier deep down in Hellas where the winter accumulation of CO2 would be minimal. Hard to find a map for that so far.

The glacier belts are centered approximately to the + & - 45 degrees latitudes, with an approximate edge about + & - 30 degrees latitude.

Daylengths being nearly the same as Earth and the seasons almost double that of Earth. Ignoring weather sunlight over a year should be similar to Morocco, to Great Brittan more or less in the Hellas Basin. With Morocco being at the north edge of Hellas.

Of course, less sunlight because of distance from the sun. But the point is Hellas in the north parts may not be that bad in the winter, for solar energy.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-07-31 10:37:00)

Void · 2024-08-04 09:55:41

I don't want to stress on this today:

So, I will give the minimal for it today:

This again: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … f2e7&ei=62
Quote:

A Wonder Moss From Earth Can Legitimately Survive on Mars—and Colonize It
Story by Darren Orf • 1w • 3 min read

The point to start with is the above image is an option.

The critical issue is a wicker frame with two or more films on top of it. The intention is that water vapor inside the enclosure will tend to condense as an ice arch.

While you could have pools of water, you also could have moist land in other places. These could be like a canal. Not necessarily with flowing water, but perhaps pools of salty water which may tend to be cold.

My feeling is that this environment could be supportive of economic value per the growth of some extreme plants.

Some Lichens can do Photosynthesis at the minimum temperature of -17 Centigrade.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Low … _322142732 The table seems to suggest various things that can do low temperature photosynthesis.

It would be very hard to farm such lichens, the method to grow them seems like not productive, but the Algae or Cyanobacteria in the Lichen could be a source of DNA to alter free growing Algae or Cyanobacteria.

So, such would need tolerance to salt water as well. Actually we don't need to go all the way down to -17 C, as some algae and cyanobacteria can likely preform at -2 C and perhaps lower. Sea water might be as salty as needed.

Here is an article about photosynthesis under sea ice: https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com … 15MS000436

Anyway, these structures could perhaps produce Oxygen and biomass, and also help in the concentration of Argon and Nitrogen gasses. If you feed Mars atmosphere into these devices, then the CO2 being usef in Photosynthesis, what mostly will remain is a mix of Oxygen, Nitrogen, Argon.

The plastic films will be protected from Oxygen & UV deterioration to some extent by the accumulation of ice. Oxygen will not be able to freely contact the underside of the plastic films.

Enough for now.

Doen

Last edited by Void (2024-08-04 10:21:20)

Void · 2024-08-04 17:37:32

I have looked into "Deep Lake" Antarctica, and it is interesting.

The bottom waters are about -20 C and support very extreme organisms, but algae will grow in the surface waters which warm in the summer.

An argument about the flow of moisture could be set up where an ice "Dome" of freshwater ice, trades water with a salty cold open or frozen over body of water.

I have explained in recent previous posts about making vaults in ice masses to provide water for things like this. By putting plastic bags in the water, it may be possible to improve the living conditions for photo-organisms well enough so that they can be productive in producing resources mentioned in the just previous post.

Here then is a example similar to what I have in mind: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDrAY6c6-AU

So, a frame of metal, wicker?, and perhaps screens. Then two layers of some sort of fortified poly like web. The outer layer is to be like an epidermis in that it can be changed out relatively easy as it may age. The inner one is more a vapor barrier.

The intent is to encourage ice to form on the inside of the supporting frame.

I also think that mosses might be possible to grow in patches.

Keeping Oxygen away from the poly with ice may help it deteriorate more slowly.

From post #1 of this topic, I have this material which may explain to some extent:

Dealing with UV light on Mars: (Post #1563)
This reference which discusses a 3 layer plastic inflatable dome method, includes materials from SeaDragon:
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 08#p218208
Another UV reference:
Dealing with UV light on Mars:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 06#p204806

I guess the basic stuff from SeaDragon is there, that is what matters.

So, keep in mind the "Midnight Sun" effect which would exist at each pole alternately. So, you would only farm in the summer. You would mothball the system in the winters.

But this could be done in the temperate zones very likely and maybe in the equator zones as well. Not sure about that.

The water is expected to be sealed on the bottom primarily by permafrost. Too much salt in the water may make that harder. So, perhaps only as salty as is needed.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-04 17:59:48)

Void · 2024-08-06 20:32:14

While I am interested is surface methods for Mars, I want also to further consider orbital services.

In fact I am interested in an Orbital Service Station(s).

This could include disposable heat shields: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 56#p225556
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 56#p225556
quote:

The Heatshield could remain on the ship until after landing or might be ejected prior to landing.
Here is an attempt to further explain:
It is not a drawing of a Starship, but may illustrate what I am thinking.

I am thinking of using dry ice as a coolant.

Sources of raw materials for the "Service Station(s)" could be Mars/Phobos/Deimos, and perhaps Asteroids, and I suppose some things could come from the Earth/Moon.

This is not an attempt to replace what SpaceX is trying with Starship, but just a look at some other possible options.

I like that Starship is measured to be able to jump to Mars, at least in some of it's forms. And to refill on Mars and fly back. That is a good set of skills to have.

But what if you could use a Starship on Mars 10-20 times before retiring it? What if it had other means of tolerating atmospheric entry? It is already less heating just going down from Mars orbit rather than from the interplanetary mode.

While the tanks and shell of the Starship being Stainless Steel, But another layer of Stainless Steel, in front of the de-orbit path, could tolerate more heating as it would not be required to hold a stiffening pressure. The Ship itself as pressurized is then the spine, the Stainless Steel shield in front of it is required to do less, more heating is likely to be tolerated. I also suggest an ablative layer on its windward surface.

Upon nearing a landing the outer shield could be ejected to strike the surface of Mars, lightening the landing load. And then when pressing back into orbit the heat shield would not be a dry mass burden.

The dented and shattered heat shields could be recycled for the metals and perhaps even for the remnant materials of the ablative layer.

As for CO2 coolant, Mars could supply the CO2, but more ideally Mars would supply only Carbon, and the Oxygen for the Coolant would come from Phobos and/or Deimos.

Ideally the moons could supply Carbon and Hydrogen, but it is not at all assured that that is available.

As for the Heat Shields, I think that perhaps they could come from Earth/Moon at first and perhaps be delivered in mass by nuclear electric rockets.

Just some thinking maybe not what to do but maybe something to consider and try to develop in some way.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2024-08-06 21:00:28)

Void · 2024-08-07 12:56:29

I think that because of history, some people have become too locked into the idea of "Mars Direct", and then it becomes like being a heretic to look into other possibilities.

Robert has seemed to champion the "Large Ship" notions, which I believe is not Mars Direct.

That is not to say that "Mars Direct" has no value. Sometimes it does, sometimes it is not the best.

The idea of replaceable heat shields where the shield is ejected in flight may be a possibility, or perhaps it would land with the ship and then be removed before relaunch. If the shield can be recycled into useful purpose then it may be a good way to go.

I am just saying open the options in thinking. There may be many ways to obtain material goods to the Martian orbit, and then to move them down to the surface in steps. Sometimes this could be more sensible than the extreme athletic proficiency that the Starship, Mars Direct requires.

I also think that processing raw materials into propellants might in some cases make more sense in Mars orbit than on the surface of Mars.

It seems to me that space stations around the Earth are going to be a big thing, as it will be supported by ships currently under development, and the amount of propellants required will be rather small for that. So, it could make lots of sense to send some space stations to Mars. A likely method for that is a Nuclear Electric rocket.

The idea of lifting Dry Ice and Water to Mars orbit and then to process them to propellants, could be valid. Presuming a power supply of some kind in orbit it may make sense. A power supply from the Earth/Moon, does not then have to be landed on Mars, which is a major effort. Instead, it could support Mars activities by creating propellants in orbit.

And then there is the issue of Phobos and Deimos. Can some of the materials for that come from them?

While the idea of cooking propellants up on the surface of Mars will continue to be valid, so might be valid also the idea of storing the Materials CO2 and H20 in orbit, and to make propellants from them. The solar flux is much better, and you could use concentrating mirrors more easily in orbit. If you went the nuclear route, still you then do not have to land the nuclear power supply.

For instance, you could have a nuclear power plant fly itself to Mars orbit, using electric propulsion. Once in orbit, then it would be converted to process raw materials into propellants.

Anyway, I do not consider it proper to dismiss such possibilities at this time.

Need to rest.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-07 13:14:54)

Void · 2024-08-07 19:12:50

So, I think that this could be like a child that grows in abilities as time passes. Heat Shield and active cooling technologies in this case might be attainable as a local capability before the ability to manufacture a full Starship.

In the beginning the Heat Shields would come from Earth/Moon, but over time manufacture of them locally might be possible. A heat shield for Starship now has to be of the most excellent qualities possible, because it has to be lifted from the Earth and has to protect a ship from entry to the Earth's atmosphere. If I am not mistaken, the rigors of entry of the Martian atmosphere is considerably less than to enter the Earth's atmosphere, (In both cases from a low orbit), because the orbital speed is less for the Martian orbit. Although I do not consider the numbers to be true now, previously I called the relative numbers as Earth LEO>Earth=8.0, Earth LEO>Mars=6.5, Mars LMO>Mars=4.0. But I am no longer sure that that relates to heat stress, but relative speeds.

The situation of Mars is not as stressful per entry, I believe. So, possibly a lower technology might be tolerated to achieve sufficient results.

A possible desire would be to eventually bring Charcoal produced on Mars to mix with regolith from Phobos or Deimos. Then to use solar concentrated heat to react those to produce CO2 and reduced regolith. Possibly metalysis would be used instead. https://www.factoriesinspace.com/metalysis
Relativity Space is working on 3D printing rockets. A heat shield may be relatively easy: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE

If the quality of the metal is not excellent, perhaps it would be sufficient at a certain thickness.

As far as an ablative to put on the windward surface of that heat shield, I suppose that is not beyond to do using materials from Mars, Phobos, Deimos.

Then about the CO2 produced. If the Carbon comes from Mars, then the Oxygen comes from the regolith of Phobos or Deimos. And the CO2 might be used as a coolant, perhaps in the ways mentioned in the previous postings.

I have already argued that the orbits of Mars may be a better place to have energy to process metals from regolith than the surface of Mars.

So, now if you are manufacturing one-time heat shields, you do not have to lift them to orbit, but you can ride them down with the ship. It is debatable if the heat shield could be unhooked in flight, perhaps that is not practical. But even then if the ship lands with the heat shield, then it can be unhooked before launch.

Then the metals and perhaps ablatives remnants from the heat shield can be recycled/repurposed.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2024-08-07 19:33:49)

Void · 2024-08-09 08:25:36

An alternative to bringing CO2 and Water to orbit of Mars from Mars itself would be to bring Methane up, that has been found by drilling or has been manufactured on the surface of Mars from Water and CO2, as is already planned for Starship.

The bypasses the impediment that the nature of Phobos and Deimos have had attached to them. It is a similar game as water on the Moon and indeed resources on Mars. Having a need for Carbon and Hydrogen on Phobos and Deimos otherwise holds things up. Which from some departments of reality is always the plan. To siphon momentum from the effort to advance the human race and divert it to other desires, which commonly are claimed to be needs.

Moving Liquid Methane to Martian orbit and using it to extract Oxygen from regolith in orbit, (Phobos and Deimos), is then not dependent on the finding of Carbon and Hydrogen on those moons. This removes a tool that the succubus and incubus might use to drag things out for decades while they siphon energy from the human space effort. If it turns out that there is Carbon and Hydrogen on or in those moons, then that is simply a welcome plus.

I think it is a good description to say that we expect to find a variety of elemental solids in the moons Phobos and Deimos. I think it is possible that there could be a very tenuous cloud of Hydrogen inside of the pore space of those moons.

So, while I previously mentioned hot processes, we also could consider biomining.

So, such a biomining process could involve a tank where you had water and regolith and introduced Methane with a pinch of needed Nitrogen from Mars. This could double as good shielding in orbit, shielding from radiation.

There has been some work done on biomining regolith, in this case for the Moon: https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio … plications.

Of course we would be giving a fuel, Methane to organisms, which might extract Oxygen from the regolith, to create water and CO2. In the process we might hope to extract minority substances of value from the regolith.

Then perhaps a next process might extract bulk substances.

Then finally the remainder might be sintered into useful objects.

Unlike for our Moon, Mars is quite near to Phobos and Deimos to provide a source of Methane and Nitrogen.

This then also might pioneer a method to process asteroids as well.

As I have said before the availability of energy in Mars orbit may be favorable relative to that of the surface of Mars itself. Again, some manufacture of propellants on the surface of Mars is still desirable, but an ability to have such in the orbits of Mars as well is also favored.

The mixture that a raptor burns: https://inphoenixaviation.com/raptor-en … production. Quote:

Ratios and Mixtures
The Raptor engine's exceptional performance hinges on the precise mixing of LOX and CH4 at the right ratios. While specific ratios may vary based on mission requirements, the Raptor engine typically operates at a mixture ratio of around 3.8:1, meaning 3.8 parts of LOX for every 1 part of CH4. This ensures efficient combustion, resulting in high thrust and energy production.

So, presuming that the Oxygen would come from the regolith of Phobos and/or Deimos, then you only have to lift a smaller percentage of mass to Mars orbits, the Methane. And you have the potential to extract minority minerals with biomining, and then major materials by other processes perhaps.

In the case where maximum efficiency could exist then you would only lift 20.83 % or the propellants then available in orbit from the surface of Mars. Ideally the other part of the propellants would come from moon regolith.

I have already talked about building one time use heat shields in orbit, and that could be compatible with the processes already mentioned in this post.

So, a specially adapted version of Starship could bring down heat shield materials to feed manufacturing on the surface of Mars and bring up Methane. Such heat shield technology could involve metals and ablatives and also could use some forms of active cooling perhaps with CO2.

While the propellants then available in orbit would be good for returns to Earth, and access to asteroids, also a ship moving up from the surface to orbit with a load of Methane could arrive into orbit without enough Oxygen to land again, as it could be refilled with Oxygen from that extracted from regolith.

This then creates a situation where you do not lift a heat shield to orbit of the Oxygen to use in orbit, (most of the Oxygen you use in orbit).

If you can find a way to disconnect the heat shield from the ship at an appropriate altitude, then the heat shield can be stupid heavy, and could include channels to flow CO2 through, and ablative features as well.

I will then confess that the flap methods then need special treatments. That should be possible to do.

And with this method a byproduct of such orbital activities could be spin gravity worlds in orbit of Mars, with suffient radiation protection.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-09 09:11:26)

Void · 2024-08-09 09:23:21

Building on the previous post, now we can think about landing legs, for rough field landing. If you can have a stupid massive heat shield that you can drop just prior to landing, then that heat shield could protect robust landing legs.

This could be another case of mass brought from orbit to serve the surface community. The legs could be one time use and could be manufactured in orbit similar to the methods for the heat shield. The Legs then would be recycled/repurposed to manufacture needed things on the surface of Mars.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-09 09:25:20)

Void · 2024-08-09 10:28:29

I feel that this runs fairly parallel to my recent postings: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ajaxserp=0 Quote:

Settling Mars: Phobos & Deimos
YouTube
Isaac Arthur
58.3K views
4 months ago

I generally agree which much that he has to say.

Done

Lets call it what it is, a machine to protect operations on a small world such as Phobos, and it will do surface mining.

The cone structure can be expanded in the "Build Areas" like a snail shell more or less.

While it is difficult to conceive of a human standing on Phobos with a shovel to do useful work, if that human were harnessed under such a structure, then it may be possible if the shovel is properly constructed, perhaps a clam shell sort of design.

If the weight of the structure is 10,000 times that of a human, then a human under it could likely do materials extraction as I have described, but of course it would not be a human but robotic methods.

The grey areas in side of the cones would be compartments where regolith could be mixed with water, a pinch of Nitrogen, and some kind of fuel like Methane or Ammonia, this then might be suitable to do bio extraction of desired materials from the regolith.

Isaac Arthurs mention of Aluminum Powder as a fuel, and LOX, is I good notion for boosters to send things to other worlds in the solar system.

I will have a tendency to value low grades of Steel as a major part of the one-time heat shields, I have been talking about.

Anyway it looks rather good.

If it turns out that these moons do have significant Carbon, then perhaps the ships would more likley lift Ammonia from the Martian surface than so much Methane.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-09 11:15:35)

Void · 2024-08-09 13:50:00

I think that this article may be an optimistic look at how the Mars moons originated. I am admitting that I want there to be more than just stupid Mars crust in those moons and this would satisfy my wants. Maybe it will prove to be somewhat true: https://skyandtelescope.org/astronomy-n … been%20icy. Quote:

Solar System
Icy Impactor Might Explain the Formation of Mars’s Moons
By: Javier Barbuzano March 12, 2024 0

Quote:

A large amount of water in the disk would also alter the chemical composition of the rocks, Rosenblatt says. This would likely result in the formation of hydrated minerals called phyllosilicates. The European Space Agency’s Mars Express spacecraft has previously found hints of such rocks.

So, that would be a good thing. No need to lift Hydrogen from Mars then.

As for CO2 as a coolant for heat shielding, that would be an option and I feel now that a thick metal shield with an ablative layer might work perfectly well, and be less complicated after all.

So, activity for the moons of Mars could include various things and perhaps also this item which I believe Calliban has reviewed previously: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … a790&ei=16
Quote:

Nanoparticles could warm Mars by 50°Fahrenheit, make planet habitable
Story by Mrigakshi Dixit • 1d • 3 min read

It would only make sense to make multiple products from the materials of these moons.

There is some news about: perovskite solar: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/p … 007c&ei=16
Quote:

‘Printable’ perovskite solar cells achieve 26% efficiency, 20-year lifespan
Story by Abhishek Bhardwaj • 5h • 3 min read

I read that these may be suitable to space. At least maybe.

And of course there is the notion of a creation of a magnetic torus for Mars from dust.

But what has very recently popped into my head is boulders on the surface of Phobos and Deimos.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobos_monolith
Image Quote:
This may be of a different composition than the powder of the surface.
Also, I think it could be used as a weight, and incorporated into a slow moving mobile shelter.

It would be something to anchor to at first, perhaps with a nail gun. Then to build a lean-to shelter. At that point you already have some considerable radiation protection, but if you attach bags filled with fine regolith to the lean-to then you have even better protection. Images: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Le … 513&ch=748
OK, start simple: https://it.pinterest.com/pin/324751823120106702/
Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lean-to
Image Quote:

Of course, the majority of the structure would likely be metal. Anchor it to a big boulder, and then you have an anchor point to land a ship on, and you could fill bags of materials with regolith and attach them appropriately to improve radiation protection.

From post #1770, quote:

Lets call it what it is, a machine to protect operations on a small world such as Phobos, and it will do surface mining.
The cone structure can be expanded in the "Build Areas" like a snail shell more or less.
While it is difficult to conceive of a human standing on Phobos with a shovel to do useful work, if that human were harnessed under such a structure, then it may be possible if the shovel is properly constructed, perhaps a clam shell sort of design.
If the weight of the structure is 10,000 times that of a human, then a human under it could likely do materials extraction as I have described, but of course it would not be a human but a robotic method.
The grey areas in side of the cones would be compartments where regolith could be mixed with water, a pinch of Nitrogen, and some kind of fuel like Methane or Ammonia, this then might be suitable to do bio extraction of desired materials from the regolith.

So, you could start from a boulder with a lean-to, and then build into a huge shell shaped mobile mining device with incorporated habitats/life support.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-09 15:08:22)

Void · 2024-08-09 17:18:08

OK, perhaps a modified recipe for incorporating a large boulder into a habitat/robot on the surface of a rubble pile moon/asteroid.

Start with a Lasso to attach tentatively to the boulder, then using that anchor to drill anchors into the rock around the perimeter of the boulder, then attach a sort of lean-to platform.

Then start fortifying it.

While the boulder may be stationary for a while it may be that a long robotic arm projecting from that assembly could collect regolith to the build site of the Boulder.

And then expand to the point where you could put Leggs/Wheels on the device so that it could travel over the surface of the rubble pile moon/asteroid.

While some type of aerobraking to orbit might be done to get the equipment to Phobos, I would imagine that nuclear electric might be a good way to go.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-09 17:30:36)

Void · 2024-08-10 10:21:08

I suppose there is another potential for arriving at Phobos, a Mars direct, refilling on the surface of Mars and then launching to Phobos. If possible though I think a method involving the skimming of the Martian atmosphere may be of value. Dr. Johnson has mentioned some of the problems with that.

And then there is that method which must not be named, Ballistic Capture. Oops!

Well anyway it may be that multiple products could be obtained from the materials of Phobos.

I have suggested heat shields, which is not my invention of thought: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/201 … 016723.pdf
So, it is not my idea, but I do modify it to involve the delivery of useful metals to Mars surface efforts. My thinking as stated before is that it could be easier to do metal work from Phobos than on the surface of Mars for various reasons. Such heat shield technology would perhaps involve a metal frame with windward side protective materials of some kind.

I can think of 3 flavors. For the moment I am imagining using them with a ship resembling a Starship with minor modifications.

1) Shield rides down with the Starship, and then is disconnected to be scrap prior to a relaunch.
2) Shield rides down with the Starship, and then is ejected to impact the surface of Mars at destructive speed, prior to the landing of Starship.
3) Shield rides down with Starship and is ejected but has some one-time rocket braking method that modifies it's impact speed and impact path, to provide a better potential of useful salvage. The impact would still be high speed.

But then if you are going to extract materials to make those shields, then you might seek to extract useful materials of other sorts and use them for alternate purposes.

So, if you are going to reduce metals to make structures like heat shields and base structure on Phobos you are going to end up with a byproduct of Oxygen. So, that has various uses.

The production of engineered dust has several possible uses.
1) Thermal Terraforming, (Not greenhouse gasses): https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … 31a1&ei=12
2) But if you had catalytic properties in the dust, you might cause the creation of greenhouse gasses when sunlight would hit the dust. Gasses to react with would be Carbon-Oxides, Hydrogen-Oxides, Nitrogen.
3) But dust may be used to alter the nucleation of condensation of water into snow. The warming of Mars would lead to more moisture in the atmosphere, so dust for nucleation might alter where snow deposits may fall to.
5) Also, it may be that high altitude clouds would warm the planet. (Perhaps this is contained in #1 though).https://www.lpi.usra.edu/planetary_news … #gsc.tab=0
6) Some people think that a magnetic field could be generated for Mars with torus of dust from Phobos. https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists … etic-field

And then beyond those 1-6 options, and making Heat Shields and Habitats, there is the potential to make propellants from the materials of Phobos.

So, a mining operation on Phobos would likely have no tailings. Every part of extracted materials would likely be put to a useful purpose. For instance, Aluminum, could be propellants, and likely some to be in the heat shield to provide for electrical wiring for the surface communities. Low grade steels might be the backbones of the heat shields, (Beyond the stiffness of the ships they would protect), and would also be of value on the surface.

And it is not beyond possible that power methods at Phobos could be used to beam microwaves to Mars as power for settlements, and also perhaps as a terraforming tool, which might interact with the atmosphere and introduced dust.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2024-08-10 11:45:03)

Void · 2024-08-10 11:44:30

I have refrained from inserting myself into this conversation, as I do not want to divert it at its location, and I can run a parallel here while risking less damage: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 73#p225673

My feeling at this point is that Starship could be developed into two complementary paths. And as it happens, I think this could fit well into the notion of the involvement of Phobos into the development path.

A) A conventional method would be close to "As currently advertised".

B) A complementary method would be "Falconization +". (Using Starship like Falcon 9, with added features).

"B" would involve the recovery of the 1st Stage, and the repurposing of the 2nd Stage away from the Earth's surface.

Some form of "B" could involve at sea landing pads, and the conversion of a starship 2nd stage to electric rocket mode, after the engines were removed and brought back to Earth in a type "A" Starship.

So, then Autonomous spaceport drone ship could be a path for the Super Heavy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomou … drone_ship
You would have to upscale quite a bit though.

So, from my point of view, once a type "B" Starship would be in orbit you might often choose to convert it to an electric propulsion system. This of course will require enhanced abilities in that field of propulsion. The chemical engines would be removed and perhaps returned to Earth in a type "A" starship.

The power system could be solar or nuclear. No particular reason do dismiss either as a potential option.
While Argon as propellant is a notion I favor, of course other options may exist.

Such ships would then probably be fit to fly to distant location such as Phobos and perhaps Deimos.

The Cabin/Cargo sections might be removed to make a base on Phobos, the Locomotion sections may be used to move things around in the future.

But eventually a Phobos base may be strong enough to support local Starship flights Phobos<>Mars.

Variations are possible of course, but this sort of indicates how a type "A" and "B" Starship method might be of some value.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2024-08-10 12:24:27)

Void · 2024-08-10 17:00:46

As it happens Anton Petrov has a new video out on the terraform method of dust rods, he says Aluminum: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfnaYRyoxMY
Quote:

Study Proposes Cheap Effective Way to Terraform Mars...Kind of
Anton Petrov
1.34M subscribers

I am going to listen again and then add some of my own comments...............

So, he gave a balanced evaluation, I think.

However, I think that there can be more to think about. I have read articles about high clouds on Mars that indicate that a certain pattern of exposed ice or water on the surface of Mars could promote the existence of such clouds that would warm the planet.

Here is such an article: https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2101959118
Quote:

Research Article
Earth, Atmospheric, and Planetary Sciences
Free access
Share on
Warm early Mars surface enabled by high-altitude water ice clouds
Edwin S. Kite https://orcid.org/0000-0002-1426-1186 kite@uchicago.edu, Liam J. Steele https://orcid.org/0000-0002-6611-0179, Michael A. Mischna https://orcid.org/0000-0002-8022-5319, and Mark I. Richardson https://orcid.org/0000-0001-9633-4141Authors Info & Affiliations
Edited by Mark Thiemens, University of California San Diego, La Jolla, CA, and approved March 10, 2021 (received for review February 4, 2021)
April 26, 2021
118 (18) e2101959118
https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.2101959118

I feel that the current climate of Mars may be influenced by the amount of exposed ice surface relative to the amount of ice surfaces covered by dust and regolith that inhibit evaporation.

I think it is possible that if you could get a larger amount of ice on top of the regolith, the planet may stay warm for a time, without such a strong stimulation with the tiny particles that would be manufactured.

And any warming such as tiny rod particles or the greenhouse clouds, would tend to warm the poles proportionally more than the lower latitudes.

I do not favor melting the Mars polar caps, but I think that evaporating CO2 and some H2O off of them would be helpful to cause continued climate moderation and the possibilities of lower latitude snowfall.

Using dust to nucleate precipitation where desired may be of help, if it can be an actual achievement. In general, it might be most desired in the Hellas Depression and the Mariner Rift Valley.

And of course I favor building Phobos into a world of its own, of major proportions.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-10 17:24:17)

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