The Moon

Void · 2024-05-01 08:52:00

Well, I think that this is very good: https://phys.org/news/2024-05-horizonta … sical.html
Quote:

MAY 1, 2024 REPORT
Editors' notes
Horizontal running could help lunar astronauts retain physical conditioning
by Bob Yirka , Phys.org

Quote:

The research team noted that the forces exerted by the volunteers against the walls of the cylinder were similar to those of a runner under normal conditions on Earth—more than enough to keep their muscles and bones from atrophying if they ran in the cylinder every day on the moon.

This may also indicate that an orbital slow spin habitat may permit this method to conserve heath.

And of course this should work on Mars.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-05-01 09:12:02)

Void · 2024-06-13 18:53:57

I did this post today: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 44#p224444
And this one as a follow up: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 45#p224445

(th) offered assistance to my request here: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 46#p224446
Quote:

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,831
Email
For Void re heat shields...
You idea of making heat shields on the Moon, for use at Earth orbit, seems quite interesting and worth considering for a business.
You mentioned the question of whether we might have a topic for heat shields. I found three, but perhaps we need a new one to cover the idea you have suggested.
Heat Shield Design Manufacture Application Maintenance by tahanson43206 [ 1 2 ]
Science, Technology, and Astronomy 29 2024-03-23 10:51:57 by Void
Tutorial on the Nature of Heat as Applied to a Heat Shield by tahanson43206
Science, Technology, and Astronomy 5 2023-01-21 13:54:17 by tahanson43206
Companion: Tutorial on the Nature of Heat as Applied to a Heat Shield by tahanson43206
Science, Technology, and Astronomy 5 2021-04-30 17:20:18 by SpaceNut
Pages:1
(th)

So, thankyou for those references.

But I think I will work here as I am specifically about getting components for a heat shield from the Moon, including LOX, and LOX would also have many more uses that just to cool a heat shield.

This seems like it might be a professional reference about LOX, but I know members here could also advise: https://www.airproducts.com/gases/liqui … age%20tank.

This image is simply to imply potential methods to deal with atmospheric heating on aerobraking, using Oxygen as a coolant:

Using similar principals then something like this might be possible:

The intent would be to skip off of the Earth's atmosphere to get to an Earth orbit from the Moon.

The spaceship itself refilled would likely then be refilled and return to the Moon, leaving the one-time heat shield behind. The remnants of the heat shield would be refabricated into useful orbital structures.

Oxygen then could be a coolant, and also can be breathed of course, and is an Oxidizer, and Could be ejected from a mass driver to produce thrust.

Most of the work to mass produce the heat shields could be done by robots on the Moon with some control from Earth.

That's all I have for now.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-06-13 19:34:17)

Void · 2024-06-14 21:08:21

As far as I know we have one professional person active today, and the rest of us are rather less so. So, the board being quiet, I guess I will do some speculative wishing, but at least about actual hardware's that are in development.

Hardwares I am aware of in the "West" are:
1) Starship.
2) Blue Origins proposed ship.
3) Stoke Space.
4) Rocket Lab's Neutron.
5) Relativity Spaces Terran-R.

1 and 5 are going to be similar in shape per 2nd stage but 5 is going to be expendable, but could be used for the Moon, perhaps.
4) Is going to be modest, but unique in its methods for the 2nd Stage.
3 and 2 are going to have a sort of active cooling, which may not be good enough for returns from the Moon as proposed.

In addition, Dragon, Starliner, and Dream Chaser have some real or future potentials (I hope).

Borrowing from SpaceX's latest heat shield innovation, I am wondering if Stoke Space could make their ship Moon worthy by doing a triple heat shield method.

That is do the active cooling but also put a double layer heat shield on the device, Ablative as emergency, and Tiles over that.

But that does leave the many engine nozzles exposed, it seems.

So, a partial fix.

But I wonder if for that version an Aerocapture would be more gentile as per heating.

Another thing as per Starship, might be to have a sprinkler that would distribute a cooling fluid to the interior of the propellant tanks to help them stay cool. Then of course you would have to vent the produced gasses either as thrusters, or just a venting.

But then this leaves the cabin area including the nose section without that method of cooling, unless it is modified in some way to support it.

Such a method might be considered for the Terran-R, should they ever decide to use the SpaceX double layer method.

The reason I like the Stoke Ship and the Terran-R is size. I would like to see a mini ship at least for the Moon maybe even without a heat shield, but preferably with one. The reason is such could be refilled with much less effort than to fill a full Starship.

Done

Of course, rather than going to bed I would do this:

I don't know if the "Half-Beak" thing could tolerate re-entry, but who knows maybe. This also would be a way you could make Starship 3 Stage, if the "Half-Beak" cradle; could hold a conical device to orbit, then that device could have its own propulsion.

And if you wanted to then that could go to the Moon or do other things. It may or may not have its own heat shield method and might even ride the Starship down from orbit if reseated and fastened into the "Half-Beak".

Maybe some of this may have a form to be developed that might be useful.

Comments are welcome.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-06-14 21:48:22)

Void · 2024-06-15 09:06:54

The materials in the just previous post are sort of "Half Baked", but I don't consider that to be a put down, it simply indicates that more or better baking may bring useful results over time.

The materials of the previous post to a large degree involve Aquisitioners, (Industry), but also involve government agencies, even to some degree the military. I don't consider that bad, just notable.

But it goes the other way as well, things emerge from the military. It seems nuclear technologies are emerging finally, after our anti-human left's anti-technological molestations have begun to subside.

Jetson, it seems may emerge from Kilo power.

https://www.space.com/space-nuclear-pow … n-contract
Quote:

US military gives Lockheed Martin $33.7 million to develop nuclear spacecraft
News
By Andrew Jones published November 10, 2023
The aerospace giant will develop power and propulsion systems under its JETSON project.

I think in the ideas of moving materials Earth Orbit <> Moon, Jetson can be of importance, particularly if Argon can be had from the Moon as well as Earth. But electric propulsions that expel Lunar Mass Products might also eventually fit in. This might be the Neumann Drive, or Mass Drivers. Metals and Oxygen are potential propellants.

The technology might not have to be only devoted to nuclear, solar might work rather well for Earth LEO <> Geosynchronous Cyclers to promote a safer human travel though the Van Allen Belts.

So, then in this set of notions, a ship launched from LEO or even the surface of the Earth, might link onto a cycler, which would be comprised of a radiation shield, and power supply with perhaps some emergency supplies. Then perhaps an orbital high point Geosynchronous and maybe a station there or a jump to another platform that might travel to a proximity of the Moon.

But for the Moon, what I seem to see in popular literature is the notion of a base with 100 people, and how do you do life support for them?

I guess that allows an estimate of the level of struggle needed, but I would not put anyone on the Moon anywhere unless they were doing some needed tasks. In reality most work would be done by robots on the Moon with interconnection with humans, where many of the humans would be on Earth.

In the short-term HLS makes sense, where Starship and perhaps Jarvis (Of BO), may be large transports. But once industry is firmly established on the Moon with robotics as the primary method of manipulation, the need to send materials to the Moon may be somewhat limited. That is not absolute over time though. Eventually it may become possible to move materials from the outer solar system to the Moon in bulk, but that is quite far off from the now.

So, after establishment of a Lunar industrial complex, then it may be that electric propulsion could be used to transport materials to the Moons orbits and perhaps from it to other orbits, including those of Mars.

As I recall, we have four main types:
1) Aqisitioners (Business Types).
2) Priests (Often regulating sexual permissions, sometimes elevating the human race, sometimes being glorified pimps).
3) Warlords (Military activities).
4) Intellectuals (Not librarian priests).

I got that from a book authored by a person from India. Sadly, I don't remember the title.

An acquaintance also offered "The 5th Estate" which is supposedly from the French. The mouth of the devil as far as I am concerned. (Often).

It is true, communication is necessary. But what is a problem with it is when manipulators of words, are facilitated to short circuit reality by shunting rewards/consequences from the proper dispensations of results of actions from the correct destination to an incorrect destination.

This can occur wherever communication occurs between individuals.

A resource that space may offer is "Time Latency". This may allow minds to consider the flow of words in such a way as to thwart tyrants rising to positions of unearned power.

In my opinion Intellectuals derive from Warlords. The tools of killing are also the tools of the manipulation of objects in reality.
But you may be deceived by Priests who tend to maintain the libraries. Libraries do have something to do with intellect. But we already know that libraries are often filled with words, and those may be words of manipulation to bend the progression of reality from a clean path.

In our media today we see lots of uses of words, for money and power. And lots of unworthy people acting as priests and librarians, causing havoc.

Done

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fifth_Estate_(film)

I regard public school for children as a necessary evil. As an adult now, I feel that I been put into a world where devil words put us again into chains. I don't like those people very much, perhaps you can tell.

I want good things for the human race.

Those nasty other people simply want to milk the efforts of the human race as if we were their livestock. Don't like those kinds of farmers very much. Don't like people farmers. Not good people at all!

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-06-15 10:38:28)

Void · 2024-06-15 17:42:40

I queried the Internet for this phrase: "Robot City on the Moon".

I haven't seen much, but notions of a railroad on the Moon is of interest: https://www.space.com/nasa-levitating-r … moon-train

Here is another notion of a railroad on the Moon: https://www.fastcompany.com/91066646/th … n-the-moon

I am thinking about humanoid and other robots on the Moon.

I think it would be helpful to think of the Earth-Moon as a binary world. The Moon as no longer an alien place.

But the development of A.I., Humanoid Robots, and Neuralink suggest that people could have minds that exist on both worlds in part.

I have an idea of what I would favor, but of course we have terrible problems with people who just cannot understand the importance of individuality and privacy. So, yes how would we keep the devils' children from misusing the path or intrusion? They always make promises, and they always lie. I guess in some parts of the planet they are kept partially at bay, by things like our constitution when it is possible to get them somewhat obedient to it.

That of course will be a hard problem to solve. When organized crime tries to disguise itself as legitimate government. Vigilance, I guess.

But the hardware and software problems might be solvable soon.

One possible situation would be a computer on Earth that could be in communication with a robot mind on the Moon. Perhaps many of these. And then individual humans on the Earth could review records of activities on the Moon. Perhaps Neuralink could be involved to make a greater experience.

The "Review" mode might be more common, but perhaps there could also be an Avatar Mode. And of course, this is where jackasses will think it is OK to intrude into a human mind. But they would have the record of what the Avatar did so maybe they can be kept away from the humans own personal brain/mind.

But then about the robots themselves. They would likely be based on Earthly ones, such as Optimus perhaps. But they would need alterations for the Lunar environment. I think that the raw surface of the Moon would require a robot so hardened that it may limit its capabilities and endurance of such an environment.

So, I wondered about a "Robot City on the Moon". Such a city might offer some protection but perhaps not nearly what a human would need. Perhaps simply a roof of solar panels with insulation that keeps the dust out and equilibrates the heat fluctuations a bit.

But the radiation may be a problem for electronics. Maybe the main robot brains would be in trucks which had radiation protection, and then the humanoid robots would drive the trucks to their work location.

Another alternative for robots on the Moon would be hiding in "Foxholes" to avoid adverse conditions like radiation storms and the deep cold of night. But eventually a power system may be ablet to provide around the clock power on the parts of the Moon where it mattered.

Anyway, what I am after is productivity on the Moon to produce material goods to facilitate expansion into the solar system.

Those could Pay for various kinds of people to prance around on the surface of the Moon in balloon suits if that is a psychological need.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-06-15 18:11:56)

Void · 2024-06-16 09:50:24

I have recently done a few posts, which include ideas about heat shields, hardware mostly under development, and a robot city(s) on the Moon. I feel that those can tie together for a projection which may to a degree show a probable future.

Posts #77 https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 50#p224450 to this current one would be some of the reference materials.

Additional Reference Materials:
A Mini Starship has also been mentioned from time to time, even perhaps from Dr. Zubrin as I recall it being the first I know of.
Some other persons have also had some thoughts of the use of such machines: https://www.reddit.com/r/MarsSociety/co … rship_and/

I think it is understood why SpaceX is not making a Mini Starship at this time. They have a great deal of giant hurdles to overcome just to get a LEO Starship running, and also an HLS Starship.

But from post #78 I mention contending hardware which have chances of being in existence in reasonable time. Quote:

Hardwares I am aware of in the "West" are:
1) Starship.
2) Blue Origins proposed ship.
3) Stoke Space.
4) Rocket Lab's Neutron.
5) Relativity Spaces Terran-R.
1 and 5 are going to be similar in shape per 2nd stage but 5 is going to be expendable, but could be used for the Moon, perhaps.
4) Is going to be modest, but unique in its methods for the 2nd Stage.
3 and 2 are going to have a sort of active cooling, which may not be good enough for returns from the Moon as proposed.

If you wanted to make a Mini Ship various parts such as engines from these various machines might be of use.

So, I think that a Mini Ship for the Moon could point the way to a Mini Ship for Mars, eventually.

The logic of Stainless Steel may or may not apply. For the moment I will entertain "Not". This is not a putdown for Starships stainless steel construction, rather it is to recognize inertia for a ship that may operate on the Moon and perhaps be for interchange between Earth orbits and the Moon. Rocket Lab may offer the material of choice and perhaps some other on the list may offer the engines. It would probably be a sized-up Neutron 2nd stage, if that is possible.

Rocket Lab says they have a fast "Make" process for the materials of this rocket: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_Lab_Neutron
https://www.space.com/rocket-lab-unveil … ing-public
https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/2/2281 … tellations
Image Quote:
Quote:

An animation of Neutron’s “Hungry Hippo” fairing design. Image: Rocket Lab

So, I believe that the four "Petal" "Hippo" has become a 2 "Petal" Hippo".

And I think that the resemblance to some renders of LEO Starship is apparent. But of course, Starship would have a 1st Stage Super Heavy, and then Starship, and then an enlarged Neutron 2nd Stage. This might allow a sub-orbital Starship to stage the 3rd stage to orbit.

For the Starship, this could have advantages. Slightly less fuel needed, and a natural return to atmosphere. But if the heat shield is compromised, then you miss an "Abort to Orbit" mode. However, if you used your landing propellants to "Abort to Orbit, then you might save the Starship. That might allow orbital repairs and refilling to allow it to land safely. There will likely be space stations where some ability to patch a heat shield may be available.

So, then you might get a Mini derived from an expanded Neutron 2nd Stage.

This begins to expand flexibility. There could be several directions to go. As a Moon ship the Mini would be light weight. If you positioned a Starship in orbit of the Moon, then it could serve as a propellant's depot. Allowing the Mini to make many trips perhaps to the surface from the depot. Over time, Lunar Oxygen would be developed, so the depot(s) would only be for fuel in orbit.

There is the entire question of heat shields for ships returning from the Moon to Earth orbits or even landing on the Earth. For Starship this may be easy. The "Jetson" propulsion system may do. Although slow, it would bring the Starship to Lanar orbit with Methane and perhaps Hydrogen and would also have Argon for the propulsion. In a similar way it would bring empty Starships to a refilling orbit of Earth.

Jetson: https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/ne … power.html

Humans would not be likely to ride on it. Just propellants and robots and a few other things.

But other than Oxygen, other things may come from the Moon. An Aluminum LOX mix apparently can serve as a propellant system of sorts, not too great in ability compared to Hydrocarbon fuels but of some value anyway. It is also possible that the Moon can give Argon.
And then Heat Shields.

If you attached a heat shield made of Lunar materials to the Mini, it might be able to brake to orbit of Earth. It even might land on Earth, if it could drop the heat shield once though the heating. But why land, if things like Dream Chaser come into completion?

If you want high art then go to an artist. This is what I have:

The heat shield may allow the Mini to safely get into an Earth orbit. After that the heat shield would be recycled to make orbital infrastructure. The device may by preference be made of Oxides of Lunar materials, but could include metals, and also might be cooled by a liquid such as Argon or even Oxygen, but if ablative, then perhaps liquid cooling is not needed.

Here is some support for such heat shields: https://www.nasa.gov/wp-content/uploads … 0materials.
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/201 … 023114.pdf

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/201 … 023114.pdf
Image Quote:

Just by accident the NASA image sort of matches my image.

I could make the argument that such heat shields may be useful to get stuff to Mars as well.

The future that appears to be coming may involve many robots on the Moon that could manufacture Oxygen, Heat Sheids, and Metal products, also glass products, and so on. This is beginning to seem like a path that may be able to also support further expansion into the solar system.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-06-16 11:15:28)

Void · 2024-06-16 12:06:59

I think that an important point of the previous post could be the movement of Oxygen locked into Oxides of a heat shield migrating to Lower Earth Orbits. When then repurposed, you may then have Oxygen for propellants, and then metals and glasses to make things of.

As for Starship as a launcher for a Mini, it may be that Starship could become a 1st stage for it, without the Super Heavy. This may seem like going backwards, but the locations for a full stack Stage 0/Super Heavy/Starship/Mini, may be in short supply. So, it may be safer to launch Stage 0/Starship/Mini in many locations.

So, in the case of Stage 0/Starship/Mini Mini has to carry more load, and Starship might not has quite as much of a heating load as it would be more sub-orbital in its path. But for propellants to orbit, I expect that Stage 0/Super Heavy/Starship/Mini would be used. Other than that, perhaps Hydrogen/Methane/Argon to orbit most materials will not come from Earth in that case.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-06-16 12:27:23)

Void · 2024-06-16 12:43:27

I have been trying to think of an explosive mass driver for the Moon. The explosive or propellant I am thinking of is a paste of LOX and Fine Dust Aluminum. OK my first thinking was a gel of LOX and Aluminum powder. But we also might say solid rocket fuel.

A typical cannon concept has a load in front of a charge, and a confining barrel to make the results linear to some extent.

But I am thinking of a pipe barrel of significant length where the propellant mix is deployed to the floor of it as a gel or powder, whichever is possible to make on the Moon. So, moving from point A to point B, you have a linear accumulating explosion.

So, then a rocket fired at point A would not only propel itself but would ignite the propellants it was passing by. The barrel being long may go on a bit of an incline of a rather natural surface. Probably the end of the barrel needs a door which can open appropriately as the load approaches it.

Then the door closes, and the barrel needs to cool down a bit.

If it were done with gunpowder, you would pour the gunpowder in a line on the bottom of the barrel.

The ignition needs to start at A, and progress towards B. The rocket inside has to position itself in the best manner and not let the burn line get ahead of it too much.

Anyway, when cool enough, a sort of truck might pour a new line of propellants into the barrel, and then a new load, and repeat.

I give it a "Maybe", but I think it is potentially better than an electromagnetic mass driver. You would already have a rocket engine firing inside the barrel, so on exit it could finish itself to an orbit.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-06-16 13:01:47)

Void · 2024-06-17 07:41:19

While I was expressing interest in a sort of upsize of the Neutron Rocket 2nd stage in posts prior to this, I also could say that I think that the methods of Relativity Space may also be considered per Terran-R 2nd stage.

I am referring to post #81, more or less. Relativity Space is doing large things with 3D printing and might be able to make a lighter weight metals dominated structure.

So, they also could create a "3rd" stage for a stack of Stage 0/Super Heavy/Starship/Terran-R 2nd stage. So, the entire concept of having to refuel Starship to get beyond LEO, is an option not a mandate of dogma already imposed by the dogma imposers.

I would think that two Starship Flights to set up a mission to the Moon based on a modified 2nd stage from Neutron or Terran-R could be options.

There could be other combinations that might be considered over time as well.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-06-17 07:49:25)

Void · 2024-06-24 10:36:38

A discussion of rail gun mass drivers for the Moon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdVMfmf5AbM
Quote:

Why Rail Guns Make For Better Lunar Mass Drivers
AnthroFuturism
4.57K subscribers

I don't have much understanding of rail guns. They are electric, which may be good for the Moon.

Done
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRMkYy … feDtrQgcTA
I have not watched any of these other video's but perhaps will.
Done

Last edited by Void (2024-06-24 11:02:04)

Void · 2024-06-25 11:43:53

Here are some materials about building on the Moon, perhaps making bricks for that construction:

"Joe Tegtmeyer, Utube, Astroport Space Technologies Development Laboratory Tour Part 1"
https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … 640A7CB61A
Quote:

Astrroport Space Technologies Development Laboratory Tour Part 1
YouTube
Joe Tegtmeyer
3 hours ago

I think that they are trying to get practical, which I appreciate.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-06-25 11:46:30)

Void · 2024-06-27 11:14:06

I feel that this presentation has value: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL6aqcDrGus
Quote:

How Will We Land Starship... On The Moon?!
Ellie in Space
110K subscribers

Gasses bubbling out of the Lunar simulant when it is melted in a vacuum, is interesting. I wonder if real regolith will do that. If so, then do the gasses have a value?

I think they might consider combining this process with extraction processes, where perhaps not only gasses are extracted but perhaps some special chemicals. And then to use the "Slag" to make the bricks.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-06-27 11:17:06)

Void · 2024-06-30 11:59:30

The Angry Astronaut has a video out that says that China may have made a discovery about Carbon on the Moon, that could be very important: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBonANnmks8 Quote:

We were wrong about the Moon! China's discovery could change everything for SpaceX and NASA!
The Angry Astronaut

Here is another article about it: https://interestingengineering.com/spac … l-graphene Quote:

China’s graphene find in 2 billion-year-old moon soil defies origin theory
Raman spectroscopy confirmed natural graphene in moon soil, revealing insights into volcanic processes and carbon accumulation.
Updated: Jun 26, 2024 06:56 AM EST

I guess it is too early to say how this changes the story we have about the Moon, and how widespread the Carbon is.

It is thought that the Moon had "Fire Fountain" volcanism, expelling CO.

This other article mentions Water: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … 298d&ei=18
Quote:

Moon Samples Collected By China Show Evidence Of Water

The notion of a Moon atmosphere: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospher … ears%20ago. Quote:

Ancient atmosphere
In October 2017, NASA scientists at the Marshall Space Flight Center and the Lunar and Planetary Institute in Houston announced their finding, based on studies of Moon magma samples retrieved by the Apollo missions, that the Moon had once possessed a relatively thick atmosphere for a period of 70 million years between 3 and 4 billion years ago. This atmosphere, sourced from gases ejected from lunar volcanic eruptions, was twice the thickness of that of present-day Mars. It has been theorized that this ancient atmosphere could have supported life, though no evidence of life has been found.[13] The ancient lunar atmosphere was eventually stripped away by solar winds and dissipated into space.[14]

I would think that it would be no surprise that high latitude rocks may contain reactions to that atmosphere the Carbon and Water it held. Further, if a large comet hit the Moon, I might expect a very temporary atmosphere from that from time to time.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-06-30 12:13:32)

Terraformer · 2024-07-03 09:36:14

If the goal is ecopoiesis -- creating a place that can sustain life, even if not human life -- the requirements will be far lower than for full terraforming. What sort of atmosphere will we need for this?

At 40mb, water boils at 30c. Is this a high enough temperature that pools of water could be stable/soil remain damp? Of course, if we're using polytunnels this will be less of a problem, since the water will be recycled back through the system.

One possibility would be a very thin atmosphere of a few millibars (areoforming) that protects against micrometeorites and provides some UV protection. Then underneath this, an expanding low pressure worldhouse for ecopoiesis. Finally, within the worldhouse, human settlements with breathable air.

The benefit to humans of ecopoiesis terraforming is that it creates a vast life support system that we can tap into. If the air outside contains oxygen, pressurising it will be far easier than maintaining tanks or electrolysing water to make up any shortfall. Likewise for dumping CO2. If we can grow grass outside, then we don't need to construct vast areas of pasture for animals; we just need enough for their basic roaming needs and harvest their feed from the fields. Aquaculture too, as we've talked about before. Life support becomes open loop. I think far more worlds are amenable to ecopoiesis than full terraforming; Mars can probably be done without needing a worldhouse or volatile imports, and maybe some of the Jovians too.

Calliban · 2024-07-03 10:41:36

On the moon, a limited atmosphere could become a severe problem. It would fill with dust and winds would drive that dust into everything. Regular rocket traffic will build up an atmosphere there whether we want it or not.

That being said, maybe a limited atmosphere would be valuable on some of the icy outer solar system bodies. Without it, warm ice will gradually sublime into space.

For an atmosphere to be stable over geological timescales, mean molecular speed of individual gas particles at the exobase must be <1/6th escape velocity. For oxygen molecules at 100K, escape velocity at the exobase must exceed 1.5km/s for the atmosphere to be stable over geologic timescales.

One way of adding an atmosphere to a smaller body would be to make use of a magnetic field to trap a magnetosphere of oxygen ions. The plasma in the magnetosphere will be impermeable to neutral molecules, holding the atmosphere in. Creating the magnetosphere would require a superconducting magnetic loop wrapped around the body. If kept beneath the critical temperature, the loop will carry a current indefinitely without any additional energy.

Creating the atmosphere would be relatively easy. Waste heat from surface habitations will cause sublimation of water ice. Ultraviolet light from the sun, solar wind particles and cosmic rays will break the H2O molecules apart into H+ and OH-. The hydrogen ions will escape into space. The hydroxyl ions will react to form O2 and H20. Over time, an atmosphere of neutral O2 will accumulate under between the surface and the magnetosphere.

A thin pure O2 atmosphere would protect surface dwellers from heavy ion cosmic rays, but not protons. It coukd also be used as a gas exchange medium as Terraformer suggests. Beyond the asteroid belt, sunlight gets too weak to support plant growth without concentration. But greenhouses in orbit can use solar concentrators. With gravity so weak, liquified CO2 can be piped up to the them.

Last edited by Calliban (2024-07-03 11:42:46)

Terraformer · 2024-07-03 12:27:11

If you're concentrating solar light, why would the greenhouses have to be in orbit? Not super tricky to direct the sunlight down at surface greenhouses, surely?

Re. dust storms, a very thin atmosphere shouldn't have that much power behind it. We're going to have to deal with the dust anyway. If we can wet it and bind it, that's an improvement...

Void · 2024-07-18 10:27:09

I think that our Moon could be a good place to develop some sort of Mini-Starship sort of thing.

I think that this could be a contributing factor for that: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 98#p225198
Quote:

This could be moved or removed per the desires of higher powers: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … 1be6&ei=89
Quote:
SpaceX is building a superpowered spaceship to scrap the International Space Station for NASA
Story by mmcfalljohnsen@businessinsider.com (Morgan McFall-Johnsen,Jessica Orwig) • 3h • 3 min read
Image Quote:
Well, my question is what else could you do with a "Super Dragon" assembly like that?
Keeping in mind that Starship might be able to carry it up in its cargo compartment, (Or down), and that the Starship system could also refill it in orbit.
I know that the Merlin Engines "Coke" up, but still the vehicle is made light unlike Starships Stainless Steel. (Not knocking SS for Superheavy or Starship).
But if you could get it up to LEO in a Starship system, you might have an interesting new animal in space that may have a special set of abilities.
And if not on Starship, then apparently, they can send this hardware up fully filled, presumably on a Falcon Heavy.
Well, it excites me.
Done

This extremely speculative. I am supposing that RP-1 is the fuel. Having developed this vehicle for some uses, eventually a version with Methane as the fuel might be considered. The Merlin based system only allows so many burns of the engines before coking then requires extensive service. At least that is my impression. In my thinking, eventually Oxygen will be produced from the Moon.

LEO Starship should be able to lift Starship propellants, RP-1, Argon, and the booster and capsule for the ship to LEO.

A "Jetson" electric rocket that may use Argon should be able to bring a depot of RP-1 to Lunar proximity.
https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/ne … power.html
That depot when empty might be filled with Oxygen from the Moon and brought back to a lower Earth orbit.
The Jetson might also bring the enlarged Falcon 2nd Stage with capsule to Lunar proximity.
Refilling fuel in Lunar proximity and Oxygen on the Moon the ship may pass up and down Orbit<>Lunar Orbit.

At the very least such a system might be able to drop robots down to the surface of the Moon in various locations.

Robots that could be linked to human minds on the Earth.

Well, it is a maybe at most.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2024-07-18 10:44:26)

Void · 2024-07-18 11:22:41

OK, maybe they are going to use Draco Engines: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpaceX_Draco

Still intersting.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-07-18 11:24:27)

Void · 2024-07-25 21:53:17

We are just going to have to honor China for this: "Hydrated Minerals on the Moon, China"
General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Hydrated+ … 1E&pc=U531
https://www.independent.co.uk/space/chi … 84846.html

https://www.independent.co.uk/space/chi … 84846.html
Quote:

Space
Chinese Moon probe finds water in lunar soil samples
Water molecules make up more than 40 per cent of mineral samples brought from the Moon, scientists say
Vishwam Sankaran
1 day ago

Quote:

The latest study of samples collected during this mission found an unidentified mineral crystal dubbed “unknown lunar mineral (ULM-1)” to be rich in water and ammonia molecules.

I am not sure how that can be. Maybe it is from volcanos, or maybe when a comet of size hits, a temporary atmosphere sufficient for cold salt water exists long enough to bond these things to minerals.

I guess then that this can be explained as to why at a high latitude as the water and ammonia might be quickly driven to higher latitudes.

But maybe it is something else.

Done

Perhaps the shadowed craters will also hold hydrated minerals.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-07-25 22:23:38)

Void · 2024-07-26 09:40:52

(th) requested more on the previous post: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 84#p225384
This showed up this morning: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … i-BB1l45nY
Quote:

placeholder
Space
3mo
Moon Samples Collected By China Show Evidence Of Water
Analysis of moon samples collected and returned to Earth by China's Chang'e 5 mission shows "at least one hydrous mineral, hydroxyapatite, proving the existence of "water" from the magmatic crystallization process," according to China Central Television (CCTV). Credit: Space.com | footage courtesy: China Central Television (CCTV) | edited by Steve Spaleta

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxyapatite

I think that there are other minerals they discovered as well.

My opinions very easily may make me appear stupid.

OK, if you have salts on the back side of the Moon, at sufficiently high latitudes you may have a sponge for water.

It is thought that water vapor moves about the Moon, that and Hydroxyl. So, perhaps that is the source of water now and before.

But there was a time when the Moon had an atmosphere twice as thick as what Mars has now. This would allow liquid water, and especially briny cold liquid water.

https://spacenews.com/the-moon-once-had-an-atmosphere/
Quote:

A new study shows that an atmosphere was produced around the ancient Moon, 3 to 4 billion years ago, when intense volcanic eruptions spewed gases above the surface faster than they could escape to space.

Quote:

When the Moon had that atmosphere, it was nearly three times closer to Earth than it is today and would have appeared nearly three times larger in the sky.

Although Earthshine is a feeble source of heat, 3 to 4 billion years ago it would have been more than it is now, due to leftover heat and closer proximity of the Earth to the Moon. So, that could have been a tiny bias to force vapors from the "Front Side" to the "Back Side" of the Moon. Also, high latitudes would be a magnet for vapors and liquids. So, perhaps some patches at high latitudes and more so the "Back Side" of the Moon could have developed minerals that could hold water as "Hydrated Minerals".

That is a guess. This may be ancient water but might also be updated water coming from an undefined source.

This is what I have so far for guesses.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-07-26 10:02:54)

Void · 2024-07-26 22:51:42

Here is an interesting article which attempts to explain a possible history of the Moon, and why it is as it is: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … 8fcf7&ei=8
Quote:

How a cataclysmic collision turned the moon inside out
Story by Andrei Ionescu • 3mo

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-07-26 22:52:43)

Void · 2024-07-31 12:29:04

I have a desire to chase this around a bit more here: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 87#p225487
Quote:

This would not be limited to tanks 1-5 but could have many more. They are more or less drop tanks, if it is desired to drop them.
However, they can be retrained if desired.
Done
The tanks might be lifted to LEO by Falcon 9 or Falcon Heavy, or Starship. They might be lifted filled or not, if not then the stack might be filled prior to launch from LEO to the Moon.
Looking for advice on improvements or flaws I have not understood.
Done
Landing Basket B is for Cargo. Cargo would need reasonable balancing by Propper distribution in the Landing Basket.
Done

I am interested in blending normal staging with inverse tank staging.

Also, Starship, Falcon, Jetson, and Nuclear Thermal. (Jetson is nuclear electric).

But the day needs my attention so I ell pause here.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-07-31 12:31:42)

tahanson43206 · 2024-07-31 13:46:43

Void, you are creative and imaginative and bold in both...

You are obviously NOT a rocket scientist.

You have a ** real ** rocket scientist/engineer in the forum.

Are you willing to accept the roll of student?

Your imaginings have recently explored rocket configurations.

Are you willing to learn a bit about how a rocket might be configured to meet your goals?

I am hopeful this might be of interest to you.

All the course material is available to you at NO charge. What is required is a willingness to become a student again.

(th)

Void · 2024-07-31 21:00:59

Good that I took some time to reply.

I did consult Dr. Johnson, and he was good enough to render an opinion that the upsized Falcon 2nd stage might be able to "Reprise" Apollo, if it had a lander: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 53#p225453
Quote:

GW Johnson
Member
From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 5,635
Email Website
If this souped-up Dragon could be launched by Falcon-Heavy, then it provides a way to use an existing rocket to send a manned capsule to low lunar orbit and back. Something SLS/Orion cannot do. Just substitute a crewed Dragon for the cargo Dragon, and use the same oversize service module. Add a small lander, and you could quickly reprise Apollo.
GW
GW Johnson
McGregor, Texas
"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew, especially one dead from a bad management decision"

The things that I have recorded in my memory about Apollo, (Right or to be corrected), is that the Command Module Engine was about twice as big as it needed to be, as in original intentions it was itself to land on the Moon. But then had to cut corners and make the LEM instead, as they did not have the resources to land such a structure on the Moon. True or False, I think it could be possible to not only do a orbit around the Moon, but to use the engines to land also. You would only need the resources.

So, I am trying to go a bit beyond what Dr. Johnson has appeared to tentatively given some favor to.

Evidence says that there are limits to my abilities. I branch in many directions; some you may know. For the moment this is simply low-level mechanic work with a bit of kluging in hopes of this blind pig finding an acorn. I would not place myself in my opinion above that picture, at least for this endeavor. But I think that sometimes I see something from another angle as the more professional minds, are formed for what is true and trusted. Here I am goofing around. I see little harm in it unless I get into the way of some professional activity.

We can discuss these things. I would be curious what you feel is unworthy about what I presented. Perhaps I did not explain well or well enough. Perhaps I need to have my mistakes shown to me so that I can improve if someone has time for it.

In this case I see an entire tree of possibilities where I think new abilities could emerge.

But then we also take the risk of being wrong. More often than not.

What might you like to say to me?

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-07-31 21:24:47)

tahanson43206 · 2024-08-01 05:55:56

For Void re #99

Thank you for taking time to reply, because I had time to revise my post....

What I see here is an opportunity for you to add details to what looked to me like a very interesting application of a rocket, to deliver tanks to orbit, or wherever needed. Perhaps a collaboration is possible? If Dr. Johnson were to configure a spreadsheet to compute the mass and other characteristics for the purpose you have in mind, would you use it? At this point, despite many months of advertising, we have yet to find a customer for all the work he has done.

The idea of boosting empty tanks to orbit would fit nicely into GW's vision of an orbital refueling station. Your sketch of what a rocket to perform that function seemed to show something like that.

(th)

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