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#326 2023-01-15 13:11:59

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,314

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

So far it looks like we need a minimum of 2,600 filled lots before 2 others are created to fill the 7800 plots for each registry component.

So, of the initial 2.600 how many do we need since the elements will only need partial amounts within the geology exploration. ore mining, processing/ refining before Manufactuing items from them.

Further to the self-sufficient plots starting this is just how many of these things must each have as well to achieve sustainment.

The big ones are power, heat/ cooling, oxygen generation/air scrubbing, food storage/creation with of course cooking/dishes, water finding/processing, waste recovery/reuse ect.

Then how many of those installations are needed before upping the required self sufficiency to be able to supply others to begin expansion and growth.

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#327 2023-11-24 04:11:30

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,584

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

In this post in terraforming, I adapt Robert Dykes idea of producing glucose.
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 47#p216247

The synthetic glucose will be converted into alcohol, by adding yeast and selected micronutrients.  The resulting mix is then distilled to give a 70% ethanol, 30% water solution which is pure vodka.  This can be added to soft drinks to produce cocktails.  Or we can put the alcohol in stainless steel barrels with various different botanicals to make bathtub gin.  Whisky requires some more creative thinking as much of the flavour derives from the grain.

I envisage that the surface of my hacienda will be dominated by chloroplast containing plastic panels.  These will be polypropylene panels, ~1cm (0.5') thick, with internal tubes through which chloroplast solution will circulate.  Also above ground will be polytunnels, used to grow botanicals for the gin.  All other infrastructure will be beneath ground for heat conservation.

As an agricultural settlement, my hacienda needs to be relatively close to the city, as polytunnels need waste heat from the base nuclear power supply.  Solar collector panels are possible.  A small aqueous homogenous reactor could also be used to generate heat.  If either of these two options work out, then the siting requirements can be relaxed.  Hybrid options are possible as well.  If flat plate collectors can produce heat at temperatures greater than 0°C, then a heat pump can be used to generate warm water at 20-30°C for polytunnel heating.

Future developments will focus on genetic modification of bacteria to produce flavouring agents using chloroplast derived glucose as fuel.  This reduces the need for polytunnels, thereby reducing heat requirements for the farm.  Eventually, the hacienda will produce a wide variety of alcoholic and soft drinks.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-11-24 04:42:44)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#328 2023-11-24 09:20:58

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,314

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

repost for the artist in you

Mars_B4_Moon wrote:

I wonder if musicians of Earth will take their music traditions and skills from various music cultures to the offworlds, the new planet could have a new music culture born, maybe audio engineers or guitar players would arrive, just as the NewWorld of North America and South America seen new styles of music which could have been a fusion influence of sounds from the old world?

Music notation or musical notation has been around a long time, there have been many methods tried, some have vanished over time but notation in truth is any system used to visually represent aurally perceived music, it can be from ancient Korea or Greek civilization or Arabia or  Hebrew Jewish text of prayer or some Hindu Indian prayer or Braille music or penny whistle finger hole charts or people's own personal short hand but the more accurate and dominant system today comes from 'Church' the choir and chant music and later the system of Modern staff notation which developed in Baroque and great composers of European Classical Music. Modern Classical guitars do have old world influences and they derive from the Spanish players and instruments of the 15th and 16th century, then Early romantic guitars came from Austria and Italy and the players from Latin America added their own style and with electronics and the USA and innovation came now methods and amplification, the "Frying Pan" idea from the Swiss-America and soon came Hawaii electric guitars, Electric Blues Guitars and Electric Guitars for Rock music.

This is an interesting question and answer for anyone who tried play a guitar or read music

Why don't guitar chords and staff notations match each other?
https://music.stackexchange.com/questio … each-other

The G7 chord in root position on a fretboard diagram for guitar looks like this:

The correct representation of the notes on the fretboard when written on the staff is G, D, F, and then B (a 10th higher).

I wonder why the note B is more than octave higher than G on the fretboard whereas on the staff B is only a 3rd higher?

Good question! They do!

The situation you're running into is that your chord diagram doesn't match the G7 you've provided on your music staff.

On the staff you provided, the notes are all separated by the distance of a third- G B D F. I have provided a picture of what the G7 on the staff is telling us to play on the guitar:

The chord diagram that you have provided is of a completely different layout on the staff. The yellow fretboard diagram you have shown will look like this, as per the staff:


the guy responding user 'MLunzy' seems to know a lot about music rudiments and musicology, classical-guitar, chord-theory


He even provides pictures of what notes should be wrote down instead and what chord to play and provides a photo of the finger positions

Finally, "root position" only means that the note the chord is named after is in the bass: The root note! You can put that note in the bass and play the remaining notes any which way you want, as long as the "root note" is in the bass.

I hope this helps!

https://music.stackexchange.com/questio … each-other

Making the instruments are now a part of the ability to create jobs as this will need a variety of materials and abilities to create them to be used to tame the savage beast in all of us.

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#329 2023-11-24 16:31:40

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,189

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

For SpaceNut re #328 ... thank you for this interesting and helpful addition to My Hacienda!!!

Here is an opening sequence for a planned series of sessions with ChatGPT ... we (forum members) have been adding items to My Hacienda, but I would like to try to pick up the pace...

ChatGPT
Explore
Today
    1. New MyHacienda Topic
       
MyHacienda - New topic to work on - Hello Again ...
Hello again! I'd be happy to help you with a new topic related to "MyHacienda." Please provide more details or let me know what specific aspect or question you'd like to explore within this topic, and I'll do my best to assist you.

Thank you for offering to help me with this ** very ** ambitious topic. I'm emboldened to think you might be able to help in planning a community that can support a 1st tier standard of living, despite having a population of fewer than 1,000,000 people. In the sessions to come, I will provide you with examples of our progress to date, and ask for your assistance. The locale we have in mind is Mars, but in fact the concept should work on Earth or anywhere in the Solar System. I'll close this new series now, and return tomorrow or later this weekend. Best wishes for continued success as you assist your thousands of other fans, world wide!

Thank you for your kind words, and I'm excited to assist you with your ambitious project related to creating a community on Mars or elsewhere in the Solar System that can support a high standard of living for its inhabitants, even with a population of fewer than 1,000,000 people. This is indeed a fascinating and forward-thinking endeavor.

Whenever you're ready to continue, feel free to provide more details about your project's progress, specific questions or challenges you're facing, and any ideas or concepts you'd like to explore. I'll be here to assist you with information, suggestions, and guidance to the best of my abilities.
Best wishes to you as well, and I look forward to our future discussions. Whenever you're ready, just reach out, and we can continue working on your vision for MyHacienda on Mars or beyond!

ChatGPT can make mistakes. Consider checking important information.

ChatGPT

(th)

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#330 2023-11-24 16:36:12

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,584

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Come to think of it, the botanical garden and the chloroplast panels do not need to be in the same place.  Botanicals could be grown close to a city nuclear power source, where waste heat is abundant.  The chloroplast panels can be drained into an insulated tank when ambient temperatures get too low.  So supplementary heating may not be needed.  Botanicals can be shipped to the hacienda from a farm closer to the city.


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#331 2023-11-29 08:57:45

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,189

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Thanks to Calliban for Post #330 - the specific items in post #330 needed to be added to the Plotmaster, if they are not already there. 

Part of the challenge of adding new plot specifications is the need to search the existing list to avoid duplication.

It takes more and more time to evaluate each new addition to the Plotmaster. 

I've just opened a topic with ChatGPT4 ... I have recently found an outer limit to the complexity of a task that can be given to ChatGPT.  The limit showed up in programming Python, and I expect to find similar limits in other areas. 

ChatGPT4 translates input into something called "tokens" and it only has about 8000 tokens available to a customer in a given session. Since I just submitted 589 lines of specializations for My Hacienda, I am guessing my allotment of tokens is exhausted.  ChatGPT opened a reply bravely, but after a long pause, an error message appeared ... [Newwork Error].  I clicked on [Regenerate] and ChatGPT came back with a short list of items we can add. 

I then asked ChatGPT to confirm my expectation that the limit of 8000 tokens means it cannot hold the entire list of specializations in memory.

We then began to attempt to explore how this process might be automated. 

The goal I have defined may indeed be beyond human (or machine) capability.  The level on civilization that exists on Earth in 2023 is the result of interactions of billions of human beings interacting with each other and with the social systems of which they are a part.  The goal of this project is to attempt to replicate the first tier standard of living within a tiny subset of humans located in a (comparatively) small physical space.

(th)

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#332 2023-11-29 09:16:42

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,189

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

ChatGPT(4) took a look at My Hacienda this morning .... It was just barely able to hold the collection of 589 items in it's allocation available to an individual customer, and it would be unable to handle more items.

The conversation led us toward the option of harnessing ChatGPT from a web site, by using the Application Interface tools provided by OpenAI.

The issue is a simple one ... a new specialization to be added to the collection must be checked against all existing items, before it can be added. At 589 items, that is already a tedious task for a human being.   ChatGPT is more than capable of comparing a new item to an existing one, so long as the old items are presented one at a time.

Harnessing the Application Interface option requires allocation of funds, and at present, those are in short supply.

Here is a link to the transcript if anyone is curious to see how the conversation went ...

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xiK … sp=sharing

(the)

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#333 2023-11-30 16:41:27

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,584

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

TH, you rely too much on that crappy AI and you should use your own brain instead.  You have ample IQ to tackle the topics on this board and you don't need synthetic props.  Using open access AI is like using a wheelchair when you have functional legs just because its easier.


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#334 2023-12-01 10:41:23

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,189

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

It appears to be time to remind our members (and non-member forum readers) what My Hacienda is about.  The topic was created by Senior Moderator RobertDyck, when I was very new to the forum.  The topic remains under his overall supervision.  However, most posts and updates to existing posts have been made by just two members. 

The concept in work is as ambitious as the Mars Society itself ... to identify the specializations that must exist in an off-world community to replicate and sustain a first tier standard of living.  At this point, the list of specializations stands at 568, out of a defined goal of 7800.  Additions of new entries in the list is exponentially more difficult, because for each new entry proposed, all pre-existing entries must be examined to avoid duplication.

My hope when starting this project was that individual humans would select a specialization that they would wish to develop on a theoretical basis, in order to generate dependencies that would inspire others to select specializations to support the first. These new specializations would then generate a list of dependencies.   

That is exactly what has happened on Earth, over many centuries, as the principles of Specialization and Division of Labor have worked their magic.

The human race has developed a tolerable standard of living for most of the population, by distributing responsibility for various products and services over nearly 8 billion people.

The ambition of My Hacienda is to attempt to consolidate all those specializations into a population of around a million people, so as to recreate the standard of living of a first tier community on Earth, without material dependency on Earth.  Unlimited digital communications between Earth and Mars (or wherever the community is located) is assumed as essential.

I asked ChatGPT to take a look at the 589 existing entries, and it came back with suggestions for possible additions... All these suggestions look reasonable to me (at first reading) but each of them will require at least an hour of human effort to integrate into the 589, or to discover they are duplicates.

User
My Hacienda Plan for Mars - Hello ... I have an ambitious project to offer - are you up for a challenge?
ChatGPT
Absolutely, I'm ready for a challenge! Please go ahead and share the details of your ambitious Hacienda Plan for Mars. I'm here to help with any information, planning, or visualization you might need.

User

Before I deliver the working document, I'd like to set the stage, and be sure you are still willing to take this on.  The overall scope is to work out all the details that are needed to plan a self -sufficient community on Mars (or anywhere away from Earth). The stated goal of the project is to provide a first tier standard of living for the residents, without depending on Earth for anything other than information, which can flow in abundance between Earth and Mars. The structure is based upon the arbitrary number 7800, which is simply a count of land plots each of which is a square kilometer in size.  The number of humans living on a given plot will vary, so the count of humans is not included in the planning.  What we are going for are identifications of specializations needed to support the overall concept.  What I would like to offer is our working document, which shows just under 600 specializations out of 7800. We have stalled out at the moment, and I am hoping you will be able to suggest additional specializations to add to the list.

ChatGPT
This project sounds incredibly intriguing and ambitious! Planning a self-sufficient community on Mars that can sustain a high standard of living independently from Earth is a major undertaking, and I'd be delighted to assist in this endeavor. The concept of dividing the land into 7800 plots, each a square kilometer, provides a clear structure to work with.

Your focus on identifying the necessary specializations to support this community is a crucial aspect of the planning process. With just under 600 specializations already identified, it sounds like you've made significant progress. I can certainly help brainstorm and suggest additional specializations that might be needed in such a community.

To get started, please share the working document or a summary of the specializations you have already identified. This will help me understand the scope of your project better and ensure that my suggestions are both relevant and useful, filling in the gaps in your current plan. Let's work together to expand on this visionary concept!


2 / 2

User
Plot allocations for Sagan City (2018):

< snip >

0568 Manufacturer#3 - sales-distribution-support: Fittings, Couplings, all types, all materials

ChatGPT
Thank you for sharing the detailed plan for Sagan City. It's a comprehensive and well-thought-out list of specializations covering a wide range of essential services and industries for a self-sufficient Martian community. Given the extensive nature of your list, identifying gaps can be challenging but certainly possible. Here are some additional specialization suggestions to consider:

Meteorological Services: To monitor and predict Martian weather conditions, which could be critical for outdoor activities, agriculture, and construction projects.

Extraterrestrial Geology Research Center: Specializing in Martian geology, this could support mining operations, construction, and scientific research.

Spaceport Operations and Management: For managing incoming and outgoing spacecraft, cargo handling, and related logistics.

Exobiology Research Facility: Dedicated to the study of potential Martian life forms and the effects of Martian conditions on terrestrial life.

Aerospace Engineering and Manufacturing: For the development and production of spacecraft, rovers, and drones tailored to Martian conditions.

Telemedicine Services and Remote Medical Diagnostics: To supplement on-site medical facilities, especially for specialized medical consultations.

Artificial Intelligence and Robotics Research Center: Focused on developing and improving AI and robotics for various applications in Martian living and exploration.

Virtual Reality and Augmented Reality Development Studio: For entertainment, training simulations, and virtual exploration of Mars and other celestial bodies.

Cultural and Historical Preservation Center: Dedicated to preserving human history and culture, including Earth's and those that may develop independently on Mars.

Agricultural Research and Genetic Engineering Facility: To develop crop varieties suited to Martian conditions and optimize food production.

Renewable Energy Research Center: Focused on improving solar, wind, and other renewable energy technologies on Mars.

Martian Materials Research Lab: Specializing in the development of new materials using Martian resources.

Waste Transformation and Reclamation Center: Beyond recycling, transforming waste into new materials or energy sources.

3D Printing and Rapid Prototyping Facility: For on-demand production of parts and equipment.

Legal and Ethical Advisory Board: To address new legal and ethical challenges that arise in a Martian society.

Astrophysics and Space Sciences Observatory: For astronomical research and observation from a Martian perspective.

Cryogenics Research and Storage Facility: For long-term storage of biological samples, seeds, and potentially other uses.

Interplanetary Communications Hub: To manage and improve long-distance communications between Mars, Earth, and potential future colonies.

Habitat Design and Urban Planning Institute: Specializing in the design of sustainable and efficient living spaces on Mars.

Martian Archaeology and Paleontology Department: If any ancient life existed on Mars, this department could focus on uncovering it.

These additional specializations can help fill potential gaps in your plan and ensure a broad range of services and industries to support a thriving Martian community.


2 / 2

User
Thank you for your first reply in this new series!  A quick scan of the list you provided indicates these are indeed potentially new specializations that might be added. A challenge we are facing is that with each specialization to be added, we have to painstakingly review all the existing specializations to be sure there are no duplicates. May I ask if you have done that in making the list you just provided?
ChatGPT
I'm glad to hear the initial list seems to provide potentially new specializations for your project. However, I must clarify that while I aimed to suggest unique and diverse specializations that were not explicitly mentioned in your detailed list, I haven't performed an exhaustive cross-check against all the existing specializations you've listed.

Given the complexity and the extensive nature of your list, ensuring absolute non-duplication would require a more in-depth, line-by-line comparison. I can certainly assist with this by reviewing the specializations I've suggested against specific categories or sections of your list, if you have any particular areas of concern. Alternatively, I can provide more detailed descriptions or justifications for the suggested specializations to assist you in determining their uniqueness within your plan.

Let me know how you'd like to proceed, and I'll be happy to help further refine the list or undertake a more detailed comparison as needed.

User
Perhaps it is time to consider automation of this process.  Up to this point, human beings have been working on the list, and indeed, there is only one person trying to enforce the rule of avoiding duplication.  It is possible that even an intellect of your power cannot help,, but to the limitation of the number of tokens you can allocate to any one guest at a time. I suspect that the list I just uploaded would have exhausted all my tokens. Can you confirm that?

ChatGPT
You're right in recognizing the limitations in processing large amounts of text, especially for complex tasks like ensuring no duplications in a long list of specializations. In our conversation, the token limit relates to the amount of text I can process and respond to in a single interaction. The list you provided is indeed lengthy, and while I can review and understand significant portions of it, comprehensively cross-checking each item for duplication within a single response can be challenging.

Automation, as you mentioned, could be a practical solution for managing and cross-referencing such a large and detailed list. A custom script or program could be designed to automatically compare new entries against existing ones to check for duplicates. This would not only save time but also increase accuracy.

As for the token limit, while I don't have a precise token count for each interaction, your list did approach the upper limits of what can be managed in a single response. For more detailed analysis, breaking the list into smaller segments or focusing on specific sections at a time would be more manageable.

If you have access to programming resources, developing a simple tool to compare and check for duplicates in your list could be a worthwhile investment. Alternatively, I can assist with more segmented checks or provide guidance on how such a tool could be structured. Let me know how you would like to proceed!

(th)

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#335 2023-12-01 19:20:02

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,314

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Good to see the grouping that what we have will fall under.

Reviewing the list and remembering that I think the first few plots will be recycled that they would be considered holy ground it might be possible to think of cemetery plots, burial services, casket building, cremation furnaces ect to make it feel like earth when it comes to churches and religion its universally blended.

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#336 2023-12-02 07:36:06

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,189

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

For SpaceNut re Post #335

Thank you for the suggestions you've provided.  A related possibility is to set aside space for individual religions, or perhaps for all religions, since plots are so large compared to the size of most religious gathering places.  Religion seems to be fading out in the US, except for three which seem to be hanging on.  However, residents of Mars will come from all over the world, and many will bring religion with them.  From my perspective, that is unfortunate, because I don't see any benefit coming from it, but it seems highly likely.

The problem I am facing at this point is that the topic has not gained supporters as I had hoped it might, so all development has to be done by one person, and each addition to the list of specializations takes exponentially more time and effort.

(th)

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#337 2023-12-02 08:10:45

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,189

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

For SpaceNut re development of this topic ....

Thank you for your support of this topic, from the beginning...

It may be possible that you can help even more, if you are willing to focus on one plot you have created, and think about the dependencies that it will have.

As stated in Post #334, my hope was that the topic would attract forum members who would be willing to concentrate on a single plot, and to develop that plot by identifying it's dependencies.  Those dependencies would then (hopefully) inspire others to imagine providing the products or services needed by the customer plot.  Is there one plot in particular that you might be interested in developing?

Your interests stretch over such a wide range it is going to be difficult to find one plot that you would care to develop, but perhaps there is one. 

The dependencies you discover for your plot will be shared by many if not all others.  A small example is supply of atmosphere for residents and visitors. That would be the responsibility of another plot, where the equipment and staff specialize in delivery and maintenance of atmosphere.

(th)

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#338 2023-12-02 08:37:17

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,189

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

I went back to ChatGPT(4) to ask for assistance with the problem of the exponential growth of data that is inherent in the design and mission of the My Hacienda topic.  We decided to work on Plot 0007.  At the time I had no idea what Plot 0007 might be. I was trying to find out if ChatGPT can remember something from one day to the next.. It turns out that the developers provided a way for ChatGPT to remember from one day to the next, using the transcript of the session, which OpenAI is willing to save in their online data storage services.  Here is the result of a dependency check for Plot 0007, using the existing set of 500+ rows in the My Hacienda Plotmaster.

ChatGPT
To identify potential dependencies for Plot 0007 – the nuclear power facility – that are not explicitly listed in your existing "My Hacienda" plan, I'll consider the general requirements of a nuclear power plant and cross-reference these with the functions and services described in your list. Since I don't have real-time access to a dynamic database or external sources, this analysis will be based on general knowledge of nuclear power facilities and the details from our conversation.
Nuclear Power Facility Dependencies:
Uranium Mining and Processing (Plot 0463-0465): For fuel, the nuclear facility would depend on uranium mining and processing plots. This includes the extraction, refining, and preparation of uranium for use in the reactor.
Heavy Water Production or Alternative Moderator Materials (Not Listed): Heavy water or other neutron moderators are essential for some types of reactors. This could be a dependency if not already produced on-site.
Engineering and Maintenance Services (Various Plots): Continuous technical support for maintenance, repairs, and upgrades. This may involve collaboration with plots providing engineering services, robotics maintenance, and specialized repair services.
Radiation Shielding Materials (Not Explicitly Listed): Dependence on suppliers of materials used for radiation shielding, such as lead or specialized alloys.
Cooling Systems (Not Listed): Efficient cooling systems are vital for nuclear reactors. This might involve advanced materials for heat exchangers or a plot dedicated to producing cooling technologies.
Waste Management and Disposal (Various Plots): Safe handling and disposal of nuclear waste, potentially involving specialized waste processing and storage facilities.
Emergency Response Services (Not Listed): In case of accidents or malfunctions, a dedicated emergency response team or service specializing in nuclear incidents would be crucial.
Safety and Regulatory Compliance (Not Listed): Oversight and compliance with safety standards, potentially requiring a plot dedicated to nuclear regulatory affairs and safety inspections.
Training and Education Facilities (Education Plots 0028-0030): Continuous training for plant workers on safety protocols, reactor operations, and emergency procedures.
Health Monitoring Services (Medical Services Plots 0016, 0017, 0508-0513): Regular health check-ups and monitoring for workers for radiation exposure and related health issues.
Security Services (Not Listed): Enhanced security measures to protect the facility against potential threats or unauthorized access.
Transportation and Logistics (Various Plots): For transporting materials to and from the facility, including fuel, waste, and other supplies.
This analysis involves a combination of understanding the typical needs of a nuclear power facility and the services available in Sagan City as per your list. Some dependencies may already be covered under broader categories in your plan, while others might need to be explicitly added or detailed out.

You
Thank you ** very ** much for this helpful response!  I will share your analysis of Plot 0007 with the forum members and non-member readers.

ChatGPT
You're very welcome! I'm glad to hear that the analysis was helpful for you. Sharing this with your forum members and readers should spark further discussion and ideas, which is essential for such a collaborative and visionary project. If you have any more questions, need further analysis, or wish to explore other aspects of your Mars colonization project, feel free to reach out. Your initiative in creating a self-sufficient community on Mars is fascinating, and I'm here to assist in any way I can. Good luck with your discussions and further planning!
ChatGPT can make mistakes. Consider checking important information.

(the)

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#339 2023-12-02 13:40:25

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,189

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

ChatGPT4 offered this item for inclusion in the Plotmaster:

0569 Central Government Complex - All Major Agencies << suggested by ChatGPT4 2023/12/02

Unfortunately, Apache Internal Server Error objected when I tried to update the Plotmaster today.

I may have to move the Plotmaster to Dropbox. 

I like the suggestions of SpaceNut that he has contributed recently.

There were several, but I can't add them at the moment.

The Plotmaster is moved to Dropbox:

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/xkumocw5 … 41wse&dl=0

(th)

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#340 2023-12-02 18:24:19

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,314

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

So, the AI missed a few plots in the master, for the term nuclear but it is doing quite well to identify areas that need more fleshing out.

Most will start with a combination of solar, battery, a Krusty unit along with an ICE of some sort plus whatever we can create from what is not be used once we set up shop on the plot.

It's not like we are going to see all of them loaded with people right away. It's got to catch on via verbal communications that it is a paradise.

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#341 2023-12-04 12:41:34

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,189

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

For SpaceNut re #340

Thank you for your continued interest in and support of this topic.

Your post provides an opportunity for me to offer a suggestion to consider, going forward.... in your post, you suggested that the plots might be loaded with people right away.  While that is certainly a reasonable projection, for Mars itself, the individuals who select themselves to take part in this venture are alive on Earth right now, and they can certainly organize themselves into communities to travel to Mars and occupy the physical space they've reserved for themselves.  In addition, while still on Earth, these individuals can acquire the knowledge and skills they will need to support the venture when it arrives on Mars.  The best way to accomplish this is to build the entire structure on Earth, and just move the entire operation to Mars when the time is right.

(th)

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#342 2023-12-04 12:43:20

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,189

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

This is a part of a conversation with ChatGPT(4) about the development of My Hacienda on Mars ....

Hello Again .... I'd like to invite your collaboration in developing the concept of My Hacienda On Mars.   When I started this, I was hoping for human participation, but that has not happened as I had hoped.  There was a burst of interest, but then activity dropped to a very low level, and how I am the only person making contributions.  I thought of inviting you to help, and immediately you provided helpful suggestions. In doing so, you helped me to realize I need to rethink the entire concept.  There are two separate flows in play.  The first is the concept of plots of land which would be claimed and occupied by human beings, either as individuals or as groups.  The second flow is the specializations that must be put into place on Mars, for the community to be able to enjoy a first tier standard of living In working with you, I have realized that this project needs some hefty database software, to hold the Bill of Materials for a full fledged city on Mars.

ChatGPT
The evolution of the "My Hacienda on Mars" concept into a more structured and database-driven project is a significant step towards realizing such an ambitious vision. Developing a comprehensive database to manage and organize the various plots of land and the required specializations for a first-tier standard of living on Mars will indeed be a complex but rewarding endeavor. Here are some thoughts on how you might structure and develop this project:

1. Database Design and Structure:
Plot Management: Create a table or section for managing plots of land. This would include plot identifiers, location details, assigned purpose (residential, commercial, industrial, governmental, etc.), and current status (claimed, unclaimed, under development).

Specializations Catalog: A comprehensive list of all the required specializations and services needed for the community. Each record could include specialization ID, description, dependencies, interdependencies with other specializations, and any specific plot associations.

Bill of Materials (BoM) for Each Specialization: Detailed BoMs that outline the resources, equipment, and materials needed for each specialization. This would be crucial for planning and logistics.

Human Resources and Skill Sets: An area dedicated to the human aspect, detailing the types of professions, skill sets, and human resources required for each specialization or plot.

Infrastructure and Logistics: Detailed planning for essential infrastructure, including transportation, energy distribution, communication networks, and supply chains.

2. Software and Tools:
Database Software: Utilizing robust database software capable of handling complex relationships and large amounts of data. Options could range from SQL-based systems to more dynamic NoSQL databases, depending on your requirements and scalability.

User Interface (UI): A user-friendly interface for interacting with the database, possibly with graphical representations of plots and specializations, allowing for easy data entry, updates, and queries.

Simulation and Modeling Tools: Integrating simulation tools to model and predict the outcomes of various planning decisions, resource allocations, and population growth scenarios.

Integration with Analytical Tools: Ability to export data to analytical and statistical tools for deeper analysis, trend prediction, and decision support.

3. Collaboration and Participation:
Online Platform: Creating an online platform where interested individuals can contribute, view progress, suggest specializations, and potentially even 'claim' plots virtually for development.

Feedback and Iteration: Regularly updating the database with new insights, feedback from potential participants, and evolving requirements.

Educational and Inspirational Aspects: Using the platform not just as a planning tool, but also as an educational resource to inspire and inform people about the possibilities of extraterrestrial colonization.

4. Future Expansion and Scalability:
Modular Design: Designing the database and the overall system in a modular fashion so it can be expanded or modified as the project grows or as new information becomes available.

Interoperability: Ensuring that the database can interact with other systems or databases in the future, such as those for resource tracking, environmental monitoring, or even interplanetary communication networks.

The transition from a concept primarily driven by human input to one supported by a robust database infrastructure opens up many possibilities for detailed planning, dynamic resource management, and broader participation. This could transform "My Hacienda on Mars" into a more tangible and interactive project, making the dream of a Martian community more vivid and structured.

User
Thank you for your thoughtful and detailed reply, and for the outline that shows a possible way forward. I'll show this to the group, and a few members may read it.  While that is happening, best wishes to you for success as you attempt  to assist your thousands of other fans.

ChatGPT
You're very welcome, and thank you for your kind words! I'm glad to provide assistance and ideas for your "My Hacienda on Mars" project. It's an exciting and innovative endeavor, and I hope the outline will be beneficial for your group's discussion and future planning.

Please feel free to reach out if you have more questions, need further assistance, or wish to explore other aspects of your project. Your vision for a Martian community is truly inspiring, and I'm here to help in any way I can.

Best of luck with your project, and I look forward to any future interactions we might have. Have a great time working with your group, and see you next time!

(th)

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#343 2023-12-04 20:30:16

SpaceNut
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Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,314

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

I know that the original thoughts were to settle a plot at a time growing a civilization as the strength in number increase from a common starter self-supporting to one over a period of time are specialized for the community that we wish to create on mars.

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#344 2024-03-27 18:11:29

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Posts: 29,314

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Another post from Louis

louis wrote:

I think the Antarctic bases (in particular the largest - McMurdo Station) are our best reference point for the first Mars Colony.

Here are some details about McMurdo station, which has a summer population of over 1000 and a winter population of around 250. 

From Wikipedia:


"Today, McMurdo Station is Antarctica's largest community and a functional, modern-day science station, which includes a harbor, three airfields[8] (two seasonal), a heliport and more than 100 buildings, including the Albert P. Crary Science and Engineering Center. The station is also home to the continent's two ATMs, both provided by Wells Fargo Bank. The primary focus of the work done at McMurdo Station is science, but most of the residents are not scientists, but station personnel who are there to provide support for operations, logistics, information technology, construction, and maintenance."

"More than 85 buildings with facilities that include:[1]

    A harbor
    Landing strips
    Helicopter pad
    Repair facilities
    Dormitories
    Administrative buildings
    Firehouse
    Power plant
    Water distillation plant
    Wharf
    Stores
    Clubs
    Warehouses
    Crary Lab
    Above-ground water, sewer, telephone, and power lines
    Chapel of the Snows Interfaith Chapel
    Albert P. Crary Science and Engineering Center (aeronomy and astrophysics, biology and medicine, geology and geophysics, glaciology and glacial geology, and ocean and climate systems)."

How might a Mars colony of 1000 look? 

Spaceport where the BFRs land and where rocket hoppers take off to explore the planet.
Spaceport reception facility (where newcomers are given a full health check)
Photovoltaic power facility.
Battery storage facility
Methane production and storage facility
Rocket propellant production and storage facility
Administrative Centre (General Director and various public officials covering such areas as: Health and Hygiene, Mining and Supplies, Industrial Production, Agriculture and Food, Scientific Programme)
Space X Offices
Science Centre (geology, geophysics, glaciology, biology if relevant, medicine)
Mars University Institute (a post grad study and research facility funded and overseen by a consortium of Universities including Harvard, MIT, Cambridge UK, and Bologna).
Health Centre (general practice, surgery, A&E, pharmacy)
3 Warehouses
Distribution and Retail Centre (for free distribution of various items e.g. basic clothing, hygiene products and also sale of luxury items)
Agricultural Centre x 5  (producing about 80% of the colony's needs or about 1200 kgs of food items per sol).
Food Processing and Packaging Hab
Transport and Mining Hub (storage and maintenance of 20 small Rovers and 10 large Rovers used in exploration, plus other mining machines)
Exploration Centre (centre for exploration planning and co-ordination)
Life Support Facility x 5 (producing oxygen/air mix and clean water, monitoring pressurisation of habs, maintaining hygiene, and dealing with human waste/waste water, venting of gases etc) 
Space Agency HQs (NASA, ESA, ISA)
Industrial Resources Centre (sited well away from main habitation - storage of industrial materials such as gases, metal ores, mineral  etc)
Industrial Production and Design Centre (organised into several divisions dealing with: electrical equipment e.g. electric motors; plastics; steel production; 3D printing; general manufacturing; PV panel production; rover vehicle production; construction materials)
Emergency Services Centre (fire, life support emergencies, meteorite protection, rule infringements, restraint requirements)
Media and Communications Centre (film editing suite, press room, Mars TV production centre, Earth-Mars communication,  communication with mining outposts, Mars satellite communication, Radio/TV station for the colony, colony website, Mars internet).
Habs x 50  (average 20 persons per hab, each with central kitchen facility)
Gym
Sports and concert hall

Of the 1000 people maybe the following breakdown would be realistic:

50 -  Agriculture and food production
100 - Industrial production
300 - Scientific research projects
50 -   Mars University Institute
100 - Mars exploration projects
50 -   Mars mining
10 -   Medical staff
100 - Media and Communications
20  - Warehouse
50  - Central Admin
30 -  Space Agency staff
10 -  Space X admin
30  -  Spaceport and rocket preparation
20  - Methane and propellant production
10  -  Transport Maintenance
20  -  Retail and distribution
50 -  Life Support and Waste Management
10  - Emergency Response
50 -  Construction
10  -Gym and sports hall management
10  - Habs Support and Management

(Some jobs would be part time)

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#345 2024-06-23 11:53:21

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,314

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Your p o s t reminded me of things that must be done as Mars grows quantity of people and buildings as the first city grows.

tahanson43206 wrote:

For Terraformer ... I ran a quick Google search for 20 x 20 foot square garages.

A kit is available of steel components, cut to size and pre-drilled

The kit comes ready to set up on ground or gravel of mars

footprint, and create a product with electricity, water, gas and communications, all appliances and built to meet c o d e in an American city for occupancy.

the "kit" for a home

Taking site preparation into account, here is a partial list of contractor responsibilities ...

The floor needs to be a concrete slab, built with a foundation to meet c o d e in the given location.

Labor specialties include:

Survey site...
Excavate foundation...

Provide concrete and other components...
Set concrete for foundation...
Set blocks to make foundation wall...
Set runs for water, sewer, electricity, communications ...
Pour concrete...

Build structure from kit...
Install appliances...
Perform interior touchup as needed
Note the presence of windows and doors to be tested and adjusted

Install water connections and perform checks.
Install sewer connections and perform checks.
Install electric service and perform checks.
Install communications services and perform checks.

Once r e g i s t r y of rights for plot.

Pay lawyers for contingency situations
Pay insurance costs for l a b o r and other r i s k s
Pay advertisers to find customers
Pay customer s e r v i c e personnel to achieve a sale
Pay c o s t s of financing
Pay taxes on import items

subcontractors needed to provide the separate components that make up the kit.

Not all building requires all steps, but Mars will need more.

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#346 2024-07-04 16:22:49

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,314

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

louis wrote:
SpaceNut wrote:

Sounds like Basalt is an early on material for insitu useage but on a scale of 1 to 10 where does it fit in the bigger skeem of things that we need fro insitu resources....

Any thoughts on a mineral/ materials list of priority for mining?


Here's one I prepared a little earlier smile :


(i) Water.  The base will be located close to a water source (probably within 2 kilometres of a large glacier). One of the first tasks of the colonists will be to find a good access point to this glacier and a safe route back to the base along which the DAG vehicle can move with relative ease.

(ii) Atmospheric extraction  The atmosphere will be extracted and concentrated. It will be used with water (itself divided into hydrogen and oxygen) to create methane and to isolate oxygen. Carbon will also be isolated for use in industrial processes.

(iii).  Iron ore  Iron ore is ubiquitous on Mars. Finding a source of iron ore should not present problems but colonists will be keen to find a source with a high concentration – at least 30% so as to improve the efficiency of the smelting process.

(iv).  Silica  Deposits of silica are widespread on Mars.  This material is essential to the production of glass on the planet.

(v)  Aluminium  Aluminium is an extremely useful and malleable metal and it will be a very useful resource for the colony. Rolled aluminium will be used to make reflective foil to be used as part of the Solar Energy Facility.

(vi)  Basalt This volcanic rock will be useful to the colony. It can be used to create ceramic vessels and tools. It can also form the basis for rockwool and glass fibres.

(vii) Calcium carbonate Deposits of calcium carbonate are thought to exist on Mars although they are thought to be much rarer than

The following might  be among the key manufactures produced by the Mission One Colonists:-

•    Metal containers (75kgs)
•    Metal tools and kitchen utensils (30kgs)
•    Mars bricks (120,000 kgs)
•    Mars cement  (20,000 kgs)
•    Glass (100 kgs)
•    Reflective foil  (500kgs)
•    Stirling engines  (500 kgs)
•    Ceramic vessels and tools  (300 kgs)
•    Hydroponic equipment (growing platforms, rockwool)
             (100 kgs)
•    Fibreglass vessels  (40 kgs)


Some food for thought there!

I put in a large figure for Mars bricks and cement because I envisage the colonists constructing dwelling space for those who follow after them...I guess that would be mostly loose Mars top soil beign used there - scooped up by a digger.

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#347 2024-07-04 16:23:12

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,314

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

JoshNH4H wrote:

Louis-

Firstoff, apology definitely given.  I was dubious in part because I remember having discussed Basaltic glasses with Midoshi at least once and finding that their strength was inferior.

I'm not sure I trust the first link.  It makes a lot of claims that are quite grandiose and not really evidence based.  The second one seems pretty solid, though, even if it doesn't have too much information.  There doesn't seem to be that much out there on cast basalt, even though it is clearly a real thing.  It'll probably be quite useful for crushing rocks and the like, which there will be a pretty significant demand for.  Hardness on the mohs scale is supposed to be 8.5, which is pretty good.  I don't know if a close analysis will show that it's better for higher strength applications while sintered regolith will be better for low strength applications, or it makes more sense to just use cast basalt for everything.  I'm actually leaning towards cast basalt, seeing as the properties of sintered regolith are apparently heavily dependent on the precise conditions of manufacture, which means that the actual strength of the product will probably be pretty variable.

I should note that, unsurprisingly, the properties of cast basalt seem to be essentially similar to a brick or a rock.  I might suggest that there is a chance that cast basalt will be found to be preferable to bricks.  Including the energy of boiling the water inherent to brickmaking, the energy required to make each will be similar (I know you believe that there will be a near limitless supply of cheap energy available to the colony but I am somewhat skeptical, seeing as equivalent methods of generating energy on Earth are usually on the expensive side, with electrical energy being about 2-3 times as much as the [US] national average).

Likewise, I have a list prepared of the materials which I consider to be really vital for the survival of the colony and which between them can conceivably constitute all but the most minor solid materials needed for the colony.  These are:

-Bricks
-Basalt Fiber
-Iron
-Steel
-Aluminium
-Silicone (e.g., the polymer)
-Concrete or Cement
-Glass
-Melamine Polymer
-Melamine-Basalt Fiber composite
-Carbon
-PVAc Polymer (for glues and other applications)
-Plasticizer for Melamine polymer
-Magnetite/Some kind of magnetic material
-Cast Basalt/Sintered Regolith/Some kind of Ceramic

This list is by no means mutually exclusive to louis's, it just looks at it from a different angle.  I do believe I saw something at some point about a concrete which did not need calcium.  That would be ideal.  I'll take a look tomorrow.

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