Balloon (balloons) on Mars - Facts vs Fantastic vision

tahanson43206 · 2024-05-18 07:40:08

This topic is offered for hard science to answer the question if balloon flight is possible on Mars.

Balloon flight on Mars is a popular concept, and much of the discussion in the forum archives is the result of our members starting out with the assumption that balloon flight on Mars is possible.

Balloon flight on the Earth is not only possible, it has been going on for hundreds of years.

The purpose of this topic is to set up some facts, so that folks venturing into the balloon flight speculation arena will be able to know what they have to overcome.

Post #3 of this topic (along with #4 and #5) will provide a framework for evaluation of the potential of various ideas for balloon flight on Mars.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-05-18 07:40:48

This post is reserved for an index to posts that may be contributed by NewMars members over time.

Post #5 shows that a balloon made of Mylar would weigh more on Mars than the lift provided by hydrogen gas inside.

Please note that this is a very SPECIFIC design! The balloon holds exactly one mole of hydrogen gas.

In order for such a balloon to lift itself, the material of which the envelope is made must weigh less than 15.87 grams.

quote from #5: 15.87 grams-force

Because surface area increases as the square of an increase in dimension, while volume increases as the cube, there should be a point at which lift matches weight of the envelope.

Update: Post 13 will provide a link to a spreadsheet created by GW Johnson to show lift capability for various balloon designs at Mars.
Update: Post 18 shows a plot of lift vs radius for a balloon at Mars using density of Mylar of 1350 and thickness of .000012.
Post #26 by SpaceNut shows a plot from a study of balloon flight at Mars
Post #28 shows a plol from a Python program that appears to match the plot from the study shown in #26
This suggests (to me at least) that the methodology applied in the Python program is similar to whatever produced the plot in #26

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-05-18 07:41:45

This post opens a three post series prepared by ChatGPT4o, to try to help us humans understand the facts about balloon flight at Mars.

tahanson43206 wrote:

For PhotonBytes...
Here is a version of the report formatted in bbcode, as used by the forum software:
Balloon Lift on Mars
1. Initial Thought Experiment
We are considering the lift of 1 mole (MOL) of hydrogen gas enclosed in an envelope with no mass.
- Molar Masses:
- Carbon dioxide (CO₂): 44 grams/mol
- Hydrogen (H₂): 2 grams/mol
- Net Lift Calculation:
- Mass of CO₂ displaced: 44 grams
- Mass of H₂: 2 grams
- Net Lift: 44 grams - 2 grams = 42 grams
2. Impact of Altitude and Temperature
The lift of 1 mole of hydrogen in a CO₂ atmosphere is independent of altitude and temperature.
- Ideal Gas Law:
- Lift is determined by the difference in molar masses, not by volumes.
- The ideal gas law (PV = nRT) indicates that pressure, volume, and temperature changes affect both gases equally, keeping the net lift per mole constant.
- Density and Buoyancy:
- Buoyant force depends on the density of the displaced gas (CO₂) and the volume of the balloon.
- Temperature and pressure affect the density of gases proportionally, keeping the lift per mole constant.
3. Effect of Gravitational Force
Lift is influenced by gravitational force. Let's compare lift on Earth and Mars:
- Lift on Earth:
- Gravity: 9.81 m/s²
- Net Lift: 42 grams-force
- Lift on Mars:
- Gravity: 3.71 m/s² (38% of Earth's gravity)
- Adjusted Weights on Mars:
- Weight of CO₂: 44 grams × 3.71/9.81 ≈ 16.63 grams-force
- Weight of H₂: 2 grams × 3.71/9.81 ≈ 0.76 grams-force
- Net Lift on Mars:
- 16.63 grams-force - 0.76 grams-force = 15.87 grams-force
Conclusion
On Mars, the lift provided by 1 mole of hydrogen gas in a CO₂ atmosphere would be approximately 15.87 grams-force, due to the lower gravitational force compared to Earth.
[/bbcode]

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-05-18 07:41:59

This is the second of three posts

As a follow up, I asked ChatGPT4o to show us the volume of our imaginary balloon at Mars. We chose to site the balloon at the Equator on a warm Zero degree Celsius day, at the mean elevation of Mars.

This post contains latex formatting which is to be converted to bbcode at the first opportunity.

Volume of Hydrogen Gas on Mars
1. Calculation of Volume for 1 Mole of Hydrogen
We need to compute the volume of 1 mole (MOL) of hydrogen gas on Mars at mean surface pressure and a temperature of 0 degrees Celsius.
Given Conditions:
- Mean surface pressure on Mars: 610 Pa (0.610 kPa)
- Temperature: 0°C (273.15 K)
- Number of moles: 1
Ideal Gas Law:
PV = nRT
- Rearrange for volume (V):
V = \frac{nRT}{P}
- Convert temperature to Kelvin:
\[ T = 0^\circ \text{C} + 273.15 = 273.15 \, \text{K} \]
Calculation Steps:
- Plug in the values:
\[ V = \frac{1 \, \text{mol} \times 8.314 \, \text{J/(mol·K)} \times 273.15 \, \text{K}}{610 \, \text{Pa}} \]
- Compute the volume:
\[ V = \frac{1 \times 8.314 \times 273.15}{610} \]
\[ V \approx \frac{2271.45}{610} \]
\[ V \approx 3.72 \, \text{m}^3 \]
Summary:
The volume of one mole of hydrogen gas at the mean surface pressure of Mars (610 Pa) and a temperature of 0 degrees Celsius (273.15 K) is approximately 3.72 cubic meters.
Lift Calculation:
- The lift provided by this volume of hydrogen gas on Mars, excluding the envelope weight, is 15.87 grams-force.
Conclusion:
Our 3.72 cubic meter volume of hydrogen will have a lift of 15.87 grams-force on Mars, not including the envelope.
[/bbcode]

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-05-18 07:42:20

This is the third of three posts

tahanson43206 wrote:

We conclude with this:
Balloon Envelope for Hydrogen on Mars
1. Choosing the Envelope Material
For a Martian balloon, we need a lightweight, durable material that can effectively contain hydrogen without leaks. Common materials include:
- Mylar (Polyester Film)
- Polyethylene
- Polyimide Films (e.g., Kapton)
We will use Mylar for our calculation.
Properties of Mylar:
- Density: Approximately 1.39 g/cm³
- Thickness: 12 micrometers (12 µm or 0.012 mm)
2. Surface Area and Mass of the Envelope
Assuming the balloon is spherical with a volume of 3.72 cubic meters:
- Radius (r):
V = (4/3) * pi * r^3
r = ((3 * 3.72) / (4 * pi))^(1/3) ≈ 0.947 m
- Surface Area (A):
A = 4 * pi * r^2
A ≈ 4 * pi * (0.947)^2 ≈ 11.27 m^2
- Volume of Mylar:
Thickness = 0.012 mm = 0.012 * 10^-3 m
Volume of Mylar ≈ 11.27 m^2 * 0.012 * 10^-3 m ≈ 1.35 * 10^-4 m^3
- Mass of the Mylar Envelope:
Density of Mylar = 1.39 g/cm³ = 1390 kg/m³
Mass ≈ 1.35 * 10^-4 m^3 * 1390 kg/m³ ≈ 0.188 kg ≈ 188 grams
3. Weight on Mars:
Weight on Mars = Mass * Martian Gravity
Martian Gravity = 3.71 m/s²
Weight on Mars ≈ 0.188 kg * 3.71 m/s² ≈ 0.697 N ≈ 70.97 grams-force
Summary:
The Mylar envelope to contain 3.72 cubic meters of hydrogen on Mars would have a mass of approximately 188 grams and a weight of about 70.97 grams-force on Mars.
Important Note:
The lift available (15.87 grams-force) is less than the weight of the envelope (70.97 grams-force), indicating that the balloon would not be able to lift its own envelope.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-05-18 08:18:28

This is an attempt by Gemini to find the volume of a sphere able to hold 1 mole of hydrogen gas at Mars.
The specification for this attempt called for mean surface altitude at Mars, and a temperature of zero degrees Celsius.

Volume of a Balloon on Mars

1. Sphere for Containing the Gas
We can calculate the volume of a sphere needed to hold 1 mole of hydrogen gas on Mars using the ideal gas law and the formula for the volume of a sphere.
2. Ideal Gas Law
The ideal gas law relates pressure (P), volume (V), number of moles (n), gas constant (R), and temperature (T):
Ideal Gas Law Equation: [ PV = nRT ]

Known Values on Mars:

Number of moles (n): 1 mol (given)
Gas constant (R): 8.314 J/(mol·K) (assumed constant)
Pressure (P): 610 Pa (mean surface pressure on Mars)
Temperature (T): 273.15 K (0°C)
3. Solving for Volume (V):
We need to rearrange the ideal gas law equation to solve for the volume (V):
Rearranged Equation: [ V = \frac{nRT}{P} ]
4. Calculation Steps
Volume using Ideal Gas Law: Plug in the known values: [ V = \frac{1 , \text{mol} \times 8.314 , \text{J/(mol·K)} \times 273.15 , \text{K}}{610 , \text{Pa}} ] [ V \approx \frac{2271.45}{610} \approx 3.72 , \text{m}^3 ]
5. Volume of a Sphere
The volume of a sphere is calculated using the formula:
Sphere Volume Formula: [ V_s = \frac{4}{3} \pi r^3 ]
V_s: Volume of the sphere (m³)
r: Radius of the sphere (m)
π (pi): Constant value (approximately 3.14)
We now know the volume (V) from the ideal gas law (approximately 3.72 m³). We can use this value to find the radius (r) of the sphere.
Finding the Radius: Set the volume obtained from the ideal gas law equal to the volume of the sphere and solve for the radius: [ V = V_s ] [ 3.72 , \text{m}^3 = \frac{4}{3} \pi r^3 ]

Isolate r by dividing both sides by (4/3)π and then taking the cube root: [ r^3 = \frac{3.72 , \text{m}^3} {\frac{4}{3} \pi} ] [ r = \sqrt[3]{ \frac{3.72 , \text{m}^3} {\frac{4}{3} \pi}} \approx 1.53 , \text{m} ]

6. Conclusion
The volume of a sphere required to hold 1 mole of hydrogen gas at the mean surface pressure (610 Pa) and temperature (0°C) on Mars is approximately 3.72 cubic meters. The corresponding radius of the sphere is approximately 1.53 meters.

(th)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-05-18 09:09:50

Yes its possible a Balloon will fly, is it done correct the question still is what is the design, from where, at what height and what useful payload

in the other thread I feel there might be an element that is perhaps incorrect in some of our recent posters, PhotonBytes seems to have an element of Art or AI visual illustrated fantasy I am not sure what the conversation between the Chatbots were. I don't know how PhotonBytes put questions to the AI and what mathematics was used by the Artifical Intelligence.

I still say possible but it depends on the design and location, possible but difficult, I know other people like Caliban have made criticism saying use of Hydrogen or Helium will be a rare thing on Mars. I am not going to say GW Johnson is 'Dead Wrong' the Balloon will have difficulty but when one group of engineers says it can fly and another engineer says nothing can fly or lift a payload I go with the majority not the minority, materials science is constantly evolving and people who for example said a Helicopter can not fly on Mars have been proven wrong. I do not fly balloons I have never designed a Balloon I am just going with a little logic and maybe a gut instinct and a lot of what I have read from respectable people with a science background. GW Johnson would later admit balloons fly up there, but they don't carry enough payload ... the debate might have been more about the site or location or how many kg is a 'useful' payload.

sharing some of my previous posts

I posted this in a discussion with PhotonBytes

JPL paper quote

a pdf paper here
http://web.archive.org/web/202102202209 … 3-1370.pdf
' Because of low pressure even small payloads require large balloons: to carry even 2 kg payload on Mars would need balloon of 10 meters diameter.'

an archive from JPL

A third type of Martian balloon is known as a solar Montgolfiere, or a solar-heated hot air balloon. This simple, lightweight balloon system shows great promise for long-duration balloon flights over Mar's polar regions during summer, as well as for soft-landing payloads on the Martian surface.

https://web.archive.org/web/20210411032 … erview.htm

a claim 'the Balloon will float at 6.5 km and Traverse the Majority of Mars Landscapes'

https://www.slideshare.net/JohnVistica/ … sited-2016

the name of the author is 'John Vistica' who may be the same John Vistica' who worked at NASA, was a Nuclear Engineer and Aerospace Consultant

Robert Zubrin
has also supported using Balloons to explore Mars, he words are in news articles

Japan has new Balloon feats every year, NASA and JAXA are investing in balloons again their Observatory balloon mission have broken previous records and fly in conditions comparable to Mars atmosphere.
I have posted too many of this to search and copy/paste at the moment.

Ingenuity is stated to fly roughly equivalent to a helicopter on Earth flying at 34,000 m or 34 km or 112,000 ft altitude in the atmosphere of Earth

Ingenuity is not fly in dense atmosphere compared to the rest of Mars, the Syrtis Major quadrangle is a somewhat elevated position not truly highlands but there are regions on Mars where the 'Air' is much more dense and flying conditions more favorable

These days on Earth 36.5 km or 120,000 feet is becoming a common height as new records are broken, for a reference Everest is about 8.8 Kilometers or a little over 29,000 feet
Some Balloons are traveling around the Earth for days.
I believe one of the last feats was 125,000 feet or 38.1 km but I'm not sure by who maybe the USA or Japanese?

High altitude jumpers are now jumping from record jumps of 135,890 feet 41.42 km

In recent news there have been articles on Balloon Telescopes, new 'Spy Balloons' and Space Balloon Lifting Tourism Trip Lifting 'Many Passengers' 100,000 Feet and higher Above Earth’s Surface
and since the topic of Airplanes has come up there might be some 'out there' ideas old Soviet statements, von Braun plans for Mars, Spaceplanes, James Wallace Harris, Austin Meyer an old site Flying Simulated in X-Plane

the material science for Balloons keeps getting smaller, almost nano-scale, they will probably be at 1500 nanometers soon or 1.5 Mircons or 1.5 micrometers

and higher again

53.7 km 176,000 ft

https://web.archive.org/web/20131110061 … s0913e.htm

I have wrote

Hellas Crater is the deeper crater to test your Airship or Balloon on Mars a depth of 7,152 m (23,465 ft) below the topography of Mars, the atmospheric pressure at the bottom of the crater is 12.4 mbar or 1240 Pa or 0.18 psi during Winter.

some numbers in relation to Earth

Everest 29,000 - 30,000 Feet or 8.8 km
Hellas variable
Aircraft? Lockheed Martin SR-71 would go above 85,000 ft
McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom 98,557 ft
Ingenuity Mars Helicopter 112,000 ft Earth atmosphere or 34 km
Some old Soviet Migs can reach 120,000 ft
Modern Weather Balloons or Science Balloons, College University or National experiments 35.5 km 116,470 feet
Balloons for example by NASA or the Japanese 36.5 km or 120,000 feet
High altitude jumpers 135,890 feet 41.42 km
the latest Japan JAXA feat 53.7 km 176,000 ft

This article claims '14 mbar' or 1.4 Kilopascal at the deep Hellas Basin
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 3317300934

Low lying Carters or Basin like Hellas Planitia have a much higher reading than the rest of normal standard Mars atmosphere

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2024-05-18 11:25:23)

tahanson43206 · 2024-05-18 09:18:44

For Mars_B4_Moon...

I have tried to show that a balloon filled with hydrogen provides 15.87 grams of lift per mol.

The envelope to hold the gas must weigh less than 15.87 grams for each mole of hydrogen gas.

2024/05/18 - to clarify, the example chosen was a sphere to hold one mole of Hydrogen. The envelope to hold that volume of gas weighs more than the lift provided by the gas.

Please note that this topic is open to FACTS that show that a balloon can fly at Mars.

At present, we have FACTS that show that a balloon made of Mylar and filled with hydrogen cannot lift itself at the surface of Mars on a warm summer day at the Equator. However, the conditions applied to ** that ** balloon do not apply to larger balloons, so future posts may well provide examples of balloons that can lift themselves.

(th)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-05-18 10:52:25

You want a Balloon to fly on Mars, ask Japanese to make you a Balloon then you get JPL / NASA or China to drop a functional lander on Mars and on top of it you get the Japanese to Origami up some design that unfold and then pops out one of their super impressive Balloons, NASA or whomever can sick cameras on it put a USA flag on its side, give the Japanese a pat on the back, they in Japan will probably politically bow down and say thank you and you get to take most of the credit.

Tahanson you say this thread is open to ideas but from your writing you seem sure designs will fail and are these also not fantasy and you don't seem very open minded to facts on previous Balloon achievements. It from my perspective you have proven nothing, in previous discussions you guys must have missed some number and made a very basic fundamental mistake somewhere. That's fine we are not perfect machines, we do not know everything and everyone makes mistakes even genius, we are all human but that's my non-Ballooner 'uneducated' non Balloon flying opinion and if you hate it so be it. The Balloon if it flies it might be a hybrid of designs d overpressure zero pressure or OZP,, the designs of SP Japan, follow some of design goals of NASA’s Super Pressure Balloon (SPB) or the latest OZP balloons will require high strength designs and new ways to manage the tremendous forces. OZP may be more mass efficient but OZP balloons are heavier than the SP in terms of both gas and envelope masses. We have seen from well respected educated people who work in the industry that Balloons can fly on Mars the question is how well, from where and does the challenges need to over come justify the risks for example a limited lifetime or the high risks and high cost of the mission.
If you want to you can even pick up the telephone and ring NASA and the Japanese and tell them 'No Balloon can fly on Mars' if that is your wish go ahead and tell them you did the numbers and you have 'FACTS' as you claim.
You can ring up 'Mars Society Deutschland' and tell them a Balloon can not fly?
https://www.esa.int/Enabling_Support/Sp … atmosphere
the Japanese may no longer be using 'Mylar' but a new material science of 'ultra thin film of new design' maybe a new nanotech a polyester 3d printed micron polyethylene carbon substance,
if they are using a new material would you admit this is making your present calculation irrelevant?

How are they flying so high and destroying feats by NASA maybe the Japanese might have come across some super strong, super light, super flexible flying material which they have not shared with us.
I do not know how they fly so high but the 'FACTS' show us they can, maybe they have some type of heating or fuel onboard that shed's as a 'ballast' is cast from a balloon making it lighter, I will not pretend to understand everything the Japanese are doing but something is going on that makes their achievements even better than NASA's balloons.

Sweden are also doing feats
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio … est_Flight
A 532,200 m3 18.8-MCF pumpkin shaped Super Pressure Balloon test flight was launched from the Swedish Space Corporation’s Esrange Balloon Launch Facilities near Kiruna

a suspended load of ~2,270 kg (~5,000 lbs)

I do not know what Balloon you are talking of but to say a Balloon will never fly on Mars your design or numbers are simply wrong Tahanson not a 'fantasy' as you accuse me of doing. We know from respectable studies and proven engineering feats as plain as the nose on your face that something can fly but if you want to say JPL, Robert Zubrin, John Vistica and the entire Japanese space agency are all wrong then fine go ahead. The idea has been to take an already existing design on Earth such as a weather Balloon or a Japanese Balloon or Google Loon already in operation at comparable Mars condition on Earth and modify it for Mars. Net buoyancy force or gross inflation GI written as GI = g.V (Pa-Pg)
the ideal gas law Density Pa = paRa / Ta
Martian atmosphere is thin but the mean atmospheric average molar weight (gram/mole) is larger on Mars than at
Earth’s because the dominant gas, CO2, has a larger mass than the averages gasses on our Planet CO2 is larger than N2 at Earth.
CO2 Not at Hellas btw -63.15 Celsius -81.67 F, Mole weight 44.02 mix ratio by volume on Mars 95% βι fraction in mass fraction in mass CO2 96.77% ρi mass density 20.3 g/m3 20.32 ni number density cm-3 2.8x10^17
the same is done for
Nitrogen, Argon other gases however the majority of Mars air 95% + of it is CO2
solar absorptive property of the envelope is Alpha*e calculated using Alpha*e = alpha*e {1+ [Tau*e(1−alpha*g) ] / [ 1−?e(1−alpha*g)] I'm sure one of you guys have a science book somewhere with these formals, the mathematic shoudl describe how balloon flight and lift is affected by Solar thermal energy changing the gases within the Balloon.

Also people have discussed how Balloon will most likely be heated by Solar warming and Mars has radically different atmosphere and calculations. Some old posters made calculations to say a Helicopter would never fly on Mars only to be proven wrong, the Mean molecular weight 43.34 g/mole. Atmospheric composition by volume the Major component carbon dioxide (CO2) 95 + % the Earth’s atmosphere consists of N2, O2, and several minor gases. Even though the Mars atmosphere is very thin using just CO2 you will find that on Mars CO2 actually has a higher mass density g/m3 than Earth the number on Mars should read at least double while on Earth 0.8 at 26.85 Celsius or 80.33 Fahrenheit
the same is done for Nitrogen or N2 at 28.0 Mol
Ar at 39.96 Moles Gaseous Composition Weight

Some Facts reported in our respected news bulletins, today balloons today fly much higher and carry larger payloads than anything Ingenuity can do in Earth atmosphere and on these very forums we had educated people with experience in engineering tell us a Helicopter would NEVER fly on Mars

tahanson43206 wrote:

.
At present, we have FACTS
(th)

Where are these 'FACTS' because I've never seen them, something is very wrong with these numbers or are you talking about the incorrect calculation used by GW Johnson that refused to use low lying regions such as Hellas as a base? or facts that refuse to acknowledge new developments in material science Japanese now designing craft 'Microns' thin maybe in the Nanometer soon by JAXA and flying at 53.7 km 176,000 ft in Earth atmosphere by Japan?
It is a Fact that Balloons today fly much higher than Mars Helicopter Ingenuity ever fly can in Earth equivalent Martian atmosphere and these Balloons they can fly for much longer and lift much larger payloads, especially the Balloons of the Japanese.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2024-05-18 11:16:17)

tahanson43206 · 2024-05-18 12:05:08

For Mars_B4_Moon re #9

Thank you for an impassioned defense of the idea of balloon flight on Mars.

Your post provides examples of human success in high altitude balloon flight as evidence that balloon flight at Mars may be possible. This topic is NOT about whether balloon flight at Mars is or is not possible. This topic is offered to show what conditions or design elements would insure success.

What this topic clearly shows is that a balloon made of Mylar with a hydrogen capacity of one mole will NOT fly.

In another topic, PhotonBytes has argued that a larger balloon might fly on Mars.

PhotonBytes has an excellent point. For our readers who are interested in the math, the surface area of a sphere increases more slowly than the volume.

Per Google, here is a description of the relationship.

People also ask
What is the ratio of surface area of sphere to volume of sphere?
What happens to the surface area to volume ratio as the sphere increases in size?
When the size of a sphere increases, does its surface area ...
If you increase one dimension of surface by one unit - the area will increase by that unit squared, while the volume will increase by that unit cubed. So, volume of sphere increase at a higher rate than surface area. As volume increases - the surface area to volume ratio decreases.Jun 27, 2021

The prediction we can make from the relationship, is that if the mass of the Mylar per unit of surface area remains constant, while the number of moles of hydrogen gas inside the envelope increases, eventually a point will occur when the lift matches the weight of the Mylar.

Mars_B4_Moon, you are just as capable as anyone else of figuring out where that magic point may be. Instead of going on a rant about what other human beings are doing on Earth, please focus on solving the problem at Mars.

All you have to work with is the lift of hydrogen gas on Mars, and the mass of the Mylar envelope chosen by ChatGPT4o, in the third post of the three part series that leads off this topic.

To repeat ... this topic is NOT about showing that balloon flight on Mars is not possible. All we have shown so far is that a particular balloon made of Mylar and of a particular size, filled with hydrogen gas, will NOT fly on Mars at the equator on a sunny day.

I fully expect that the members of this forum will contribute posts that show that a different choice of envelope material, combined with a greater volume of lift, will eventually show that a flight is possible.

What we do NOT need is more passion about the value of balloons in the Universe.

Simple facts (ie, NUMBERS) will reveal the outcome of a particular design.

To keep all experiments aligned, please use hydrogen to lift, CO2 as atmosphere, Mean elevation and Zero degrees Celsius.

We should see a successful design within days.

(th)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-05-18 12:15:51

I think the Japanese may be using a new material, Mylar is often measured in millimeters. To prevent stress and escape of gas they seem to encourage flying where there is no fluctuation between day and night so the balloon flight is less stressed and they hint the Balloon craft is pressurized from inside so there might be some thermal or warming or solar science going on. The Japanaese might have produced a new type of polyethylene different to the size, weight, strength and dimensional stability of the trade names 'Mylar' we do not know what this new material is the new unobtainable 'Ja-mylar-nese'.
I honestly don't know how the Japanese Ballons are doing it but they are successful, can they launch something Stadium-Sized Hellas? without heating the gas and without new advances in Japanese micrometer or Micron or nano technology, a big radius so we go with the sphere 4 π r 2
carrying a small payload of 3 kgs but 53.7 km 176,000 ft
B = ρ (Density) × V × g (Gravitational acceleration in m/s²)
How could the Japanese do this lifting feat on Mars, if they heat up gas in a very durable but flexible material some gas which normally don't work can become even more appropriate than Hydrogen gas for lifting we have hints they may be heating their Balloons, Helium is non combustible but leaks and is rare on Earth, carbon monoxide is hated and used, Water has a low molar mass but you will have condensation, Diborane is a hazard, Ammonia is heavy-ish it has been used however it is unlikely they are using Ammonia it is an irritant, and can damage some metals and plastics.
Hydrogen posses risks with static and electronics, Helium has Molar heat capacity 20.78 J/ mol K by heating a type of partial "vacuum balloon" they may be getting a percentage % more net lifting force than a hydrogen-filled balloon so they might be using Helium, doing something unknown to us, for example absorbing solar energy or the Rozière balloon has a core of helium with an outer shell of hot air. We do not know exactly what the Japanese are doing but it must be something different because they are getting much better results. The design of the super-pressure balloon maintains pressures much greater inside the balloon than the external ambient pressure, calculations would be different but the same principle would apply to Mars balloon.
perhaps there have been advances in micron or nano or micrometer µm polyethylene skin plastic films, ultra-mega-super-ultra-thin from Japan?
John Hopkins also has interesting results, news news articles say 36 km (22 mi) above Antarctica,
pdf says 75 days or more at 110 kft (33.5 km) altitude
https://soma.larc.nasa.gov/pi-masters-f … Walker.pdf
GUSTO Mission Breaks NASA Record
https://www.jhuapl.edu/news/news-releas … oon-record
ULDB Spectroscopic Terahertz Observatory (GUSTO)
a lot of early developments seem linked to the 'Sanriku Balloon Center' situated North of Tokyo, Yomohama, Fukushima and South of Aomori Hokkaido on the Japanese East Coast.

https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2002A … Y/abstract

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Fli … 1_50401975

However a Micron is a thousand times multiplied by one nanometer also called micrometer symbolized as ‘μm’ it is one thousand times less than a milimeter and is equal to 0.001 mm or about 0.000039 inch, human hair is 40 to 100 μm – diameter of human hairs

I would argue post # 4 is incorrect because you will use a special type of Balloon like the Japanaese do and you will start in a Low Lying Crater or Basin like Hellas

tahanson43206 wrote:

- Mean surface pressure on Mars: 610 Pa (0.610 kPa)
- Temperature: 0°C (273.15 K)
(th)

if we start in a low lying Crater or Basin like Hellas Planitia your pressure will be much higher
the Japanese might have figured out how to warm their Balloon by some power source maybe a Solar device so lets consider a Greenhouse effect inside the Balloon or some Heat Transfer Sources on 'Solar Balloon' some Direct Solar radiation warming the Balloon, while in the sky it absorbs Martian IR radiation from the Surface of Mars there is some small but somewhat significant reflected Solar radiation bouncing from the surface back underneath the Balloon let's call it Reflected Albedo Flux there will be a change in some available Radiation as a function of Elevation on Mars

if we build a boat you don't bring it to the top of mount Everest to prove it can not sail the seas, likewise to keep a Balloon flying we will try flying in the lower more buoyant altitude regions, stay in the Lowlands or Basin, Hellas will have much higher density so a Balloon here is more float-able than an area of 'Mean surface pressure'

Let me quote part of post #7 which gives a number more than double your average pressure figure

the reading claims 1400 Pa or 1.400 kPa not 0.610 kPa

This article claims '14 mbar' or 1.400 Kilopascal at the deep Hellas Basin
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 3317300934

as regions go Hellas is huge it can be compared to the size of the USA, China, Brazil, Greenland governed by Denmark the largest non-continental island and compared with the size of Canada or Australia, the crater of Hellas it extends about 2,300 km (1,400 mi) east to west

the link also gives wild temperature swings at Hellas 150 K or -123.15 Celsius or -189.6 F and a reading of 307 K or 33.8 Celsius which seems an unusually high reading even for a Mars summer

they write 'manufactured by JAXA using a ultra thin film of new design'
https://web.archive.org/web/20131110061 … s0913e.htm

it would be thinner than a single droplet in fog or mist, maybe length of a typical bacterium or even less than your width of strand of spider web silk

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2024-05-18 16:51:49)

tahanson43206 · 2024-05-18 12:41:46

For Mars_B4_Moon re #11

Thanks for providing more information about the Japanese balloon design!

I just heard from GW Johnson. He completed a detailed analysis of balloon flight on Mars 6 years ago. He found the spreadsheet and pdf document and sent them by email. I am planning to have the links to both available some time this weekend.

I am hoping the spreadsheet will show the breakeven point where the lift capacity of hydrogen exceeds the weight of the envelope needed to hold the gas.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-05-18 12:43:20

This post is reserved for a set of files created by GW Johnson (about) six years ago, when balloons were a subject of interest in the forum.

There will be a link to a spreadsheet that anyone can download and run:
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/5iqfchni … a9o6o&dl=0

And there will be a pdf file with documentation.
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/qlmxo99o … 2li30&dl=0

Here's a quote from the pdf:

Even with hydrogen, the balloon can lift nothing but itself at some 150 m
diameter. Carrying capacity only exists in sizes larger than that.

For Mars_B4_Moon ... If you have a friend who can help you with the math, please ask that person to carefully review Dr. Johnson's work. It appears that a balloon made of the right material that is 150 meters in diameter might lift off from the surface, with no payload.

You have a real scientist trying to help you with your vision. We've had this conversation before. It just seems to be coming back up again now that PhotonBytes has launched his ambitious topic.

Here is another quote from the pdf.... the pdf shows the graphs for Earth and Mars, and for several lifting gases.

The envelope material for all the studies is Mylar.

,,,Mylar, although probably not of material this thin.
On Mars, the carrying capacity is zero with hydrogen at 150 m diameter! At 200 m diameter, it is about
50 KN (corresponding to about 13 metric tons mass on Mars at the reduced gravity). The capacity at 200
m diameter with helium is about 40 KN (about 10 metric tons mass). The carrying capacity at 200 m
diameter with methane is still negative. There is no hope of a Martian “hot air” balloon, as the plot
indicates. No Mylar balloons have ever been made at this size.
Comparing these numbers with the Earth numbers, and considering that Mylar balloons over 150 m
diameter have never been made, much less with Mylar this thin, one must conclude the potential for
“lighter than air” on Mars is very low indeed.

(th)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-05-18 14:36:20

Tahansona from the post you gave me from six years ago, it writes 'minimum credible thickness near 0.010 inches = 0.25 mm' here perhaps lies one of the errors because
that is not small when compared to the new Japan Balloons today.
although this figure must have seemed incredible and very thin for its time only 6 years ago however the Japanese today are building credible and far thinner balloons 125 times thinner again. A size of 0.10 might have seemed like a very fine narrow thread like skin but today it is not thin.

Your own post # 5 also contradicts the number 0.01 inches or 0.25 mm, instead you or ChatGPT writes 12 micrometers (12 µm or 0.012 mm)

some how you have concluded the balloon would not be able to lift its own envelope, while GW Johnson concluded 6 years ago with a thicker heavier design the Balloon maybe can lift itself

all different answers, who is wrong and who is correct?

while

tahanson43206 wrote:

- Thickness: 12 micrometers (12 µm or 0.012 mm)
(th)

The Japanese have gone smaller again

at 2 Microns or 0.002 mm or 0.0000787 inches because material science advances so fast as each year passes by and because a micrometer is so much smaller again they might soon be building lighter Balloons once again, maybe one day on the Nano scale for example 250 Nano meters is 0 . 0 0 0 0 0 9 8 4 of an inch. Let's assume we still have the same NASA camera on the Balloon the same upward buoyant force, but now it is not equal to the weight because Japan has figured out how to make the balloon and the basket hundreds of times thinner while keeping the same durability, the Japanese may have also figured out how to pump hot Air mixed Helium in other others gases use solar absorbtion giving the property of an ultra light hot air balloon hybrid with a very very thin skin approaching nano sacle.
I have no idea what prevents such a thin Balloon from ripping and how it can be so durable to stress and temperatures, I do not make the new type of polyethylene carbon nano polyester Mylar unobtainable film biosilk thing whatever its called the 'Ja-mylar-nese' or make these balloons the Japanese do.

Innovative techniques super-pressure or heating is not really examined looked at casually

again the higher pressure and increased buoyancy of lower lying Basin or Carter areas like Hellas ignored

When I look at discussion of old Micron and Nanotech topics a lot of people thought they were a world of science fiction but this super tiny and durable, robust material science has now become a reality.

if you can ask Japan to start building something 125 times thinner again you are saving a lot of weight or mass

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2024-05-18 16:29:29)

tahanson43206 · 2024-05-18 18:43:06

For Mars_B4_Moon re balloon discussion...

Thank you for your persistence and for your faith that balloons might have a future on Mars.

Dr. Johnson's analysis showed that break even might occur as far out as 150 meters diameter.

That analysis is a benchmark that can be used for comparison with later attempts.

I just finished a long session with ChatGPT4o, and while I am not sure how confident I should be, what I can report is that the method of analysis I chose provided a break-even much earlier .... I'm planning to post the plot of radius vs lift shortly, and the Python source code that gave the result.

The plot starts out negative, as I had already reported it would, at the top of this topic. However, thanks to the power of the cube vs square relationship between volume and surface area, the lift turned positive at around radius 5 meters, and climbed rapidly for a while. Eventually, as the power of volume overtook the square surface area increase, the curve evened out to a steady value.

If the plot is accurate, we can expect to see 100 kilograms of science payload at radius of 15 meters, and 200 kilograms of payload at 20 meters radius, or 40 meters diameter. Scientists at Mars (or even on Earth) would be able to accomplish a ** lot ** with 200 kilograms. A good portion of that mass would have to be allocated to navigation, and there isn't a lot of leeway for change of altitude.

I note your detailed reporting of Japanese advances in envelope technology, and given that we are using Mylar to compute the results I'll be showing, we can expect that a lighter weight envelope would allow even greater science payload.

There is a ** really ** big caveat to this ... I am not overly confident in the method used for the analysis, or in the software created.

It will be necessary and appropriate for others to perform the needed critical review.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-05-18 18:46:21

Summary of Work session to plot Lift vs Radius at Mars, using hydrogen as gas and Mylar as envelope:

Summary of Balloon Lift Project Efforts
Objective: The objective of the project was to determine the lift capability of a balloon on Mars, with a focus on finding the crossover point where the balloon can lift its own weight.
Approach: The project used Python programming to model the lift capability of a balloon by considering factors such as the volume of hydrogen gas, the surface area of the balloon, the mass of the Mylar envelope, and the gravitational conditions on Mars.
Key Findings:
- The project found that the lift capability of the balloon is influenced by the volume of hydrogen gas, the radius of the balloon, and the mass of the Mylar envelope.
- By systematically increasing the number of moles of hydrogen gas and calculating the corresponding lift, radius, and envelope mass, the project identified a crossover point where the lift becomes positive.
- Surprisingly, the crossover point occurred at a much smaller radius (around 20 meters) than initially anticipated (150 meters), indicating a potentially more efficient design for Mars balloons.
Conclusion: The project's findings suggest that a balloon with a 40-meter diameter made of Mylar could potentially lift up to 200 kilograms of scientific equipment on Mars, a result that exceeded expectations and could have significant implications for future Mars exploration missions.
Future Directions: Further validation and refinement of the model, as well as experimental testing, could provide additional insights into the lift capability of balloons on Mars and inform the design of future missions.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-05-18 18:48:22

Here is the Python code that produced the plot that will be published after it is saved at imgur.com:

import numpy as np
import matplotlib.pyplot as plt
# Constants
density_mylar = 1390 # kg/m³
thickness_mylar = 0.000012 # meters (12 micrometers)
gravity_mars = 3.71 # m/s²
molar_mass_hydrogen = 0.002 # kg/mol
molar_mass_co2 = 0.044 # kg/mol
R = 8.314 # J/(mol·K)
pressure_mars = 610 # Pa
temperature_mars = 273.15 # K
density_co2 = 0.0198 # kg/m³ on Mars
newton_to_gram_force = 101.97 # Conversion factor
def calculate_volume(n_moles):
# Calculate volume of hydrogen gas
volume_hydrogen = (n_moles * R * temperature_mars) / pressure_mars
return volume_hydrogen
def calculate_radius(n_moles):
# Calculate volume of hydrogen gas
volume_hydrogen = calculate_volume(n_moles)
# Calculate radius of the balloon
radius = (3 * volume_hydrogen / (4 * np.pi)) ** (1/3)
return radius
def calculate_lift(n_moles):
# Calculate volume of hydrogen gas
volume_hydrogen = calculate_volume(n_moles)
# Calculate radius of the balloon
radius = calculate_radius(n_moles)
# Calculate mass of the Mylar envelope
surface_area = 4 * np.pi * radius**2
mass_envelope = surface_area * thickness_mylar * density_mylar
weight_envelope_mars = mass_envelope * gravity_mars
# Calculate the lift force provided by the hydrogen gas
lift_force = (volume_hydrogen * density_co2 * gravity_mars) - (n_moles * molar_mass_hydrogen * gravity_mars)
# Calculate net lift force by subtracting the weight of the envelope
net_lift_force = lift_force - weight_envelope_mars
return net_lift_force, radius, mass_envelope
# Generate data for the plot
moles_range = np.arange(1, 10000) # Start from 1 mole
# Calculate lift, radius, and mass for each mole count
lift_data = []
radius_data = []
mass_envelope_data = []
for moles in moles_range:
lift, radius, mass_envelope = calculate_lift(moles)
lift_data.append(lift)
radius_data.append(radius)
mass_envelope_data.append(mass_envelope)
# Plot the data
plt.plot(lift_data, radius_data)
plt.xlabel('Lift (N)')
plt.ylabel('Radius (m)')
plt.title('Balloon Lift vs. Radius')
plt.grid(True)
plt.show()

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-05-18 18:59:37

Plot of Balloon Lift in Newtons vs Radius in meters

A Newton is about a 10th of a Kilogram

SearchTerm:Plot of lift vs radius at Mars using Hydrogen with Mylar envelope.
SearchTerm:Balloon plot lift vs radius at Mars

(th)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-05-19 05:14:04

Thanks for the Summary, Numbers, Code and Group, Tahanson

here is a picture link of the Balloon equations from the 'John Vistica' slides, Red Loon pressure for Altitude and Ambient Conditions gas mixtures and planetary air

https://pic8.co/sh/QFWy66.png
,
https://pic8.co/sh/aOYLyz.png
,
https://pic8.co/sh/r50dq7.png
,
https://pic8.co/sh/bT4DjN.png

I think it might be wise to ask someone with Balloon experiences also there are a whole worlds experienced people and groups out, there are people in federal groups nation weather organizations, groups there where balloonists and pilots meet up, Weather Science and Meteorological Society, the Japanese Aerospace Technology Society Japan linking to home Colleges, Tech Schools and University there are Private groups offering to lift experiments. I will assume for now none of us have designed a Balloon but maybe some people in these groups are involved in some kind of space group or maybe a balloon group already links with a Mars Society and would be able to see something overlooked, the sometimes use the term stratostats to refer to high altitude and usually uncrewed balloons, the communications platforms or fake-satellite Balloons are sometimes called HAPS or ULDB

PDF with pictures and illustration and a Block diagram of the telemeter and Graphical User Interface, the talk of airspace restriction and altitude that ranged between 33541.6 and 33577.3 m.
https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/ta … k_103/_pdf

http://web.archive.org/web/201811031515 … k_103/_pdf

and

https://bbac.org/aerostat-magazine/
https://stratostar.com/
https://today.emich.edu/story/story/12664
https://journals.ametsoc.org/view/journ … 0042.1.xml
https://canadianballoonassociation.ca/b … in-canada/
https://arizonaballoonclub.org/about/
https://www.abf.net.au/aboutus
https://aviation-ranch.com/about-the-ranch/

a website questforstars.com they work with schools and have been to space Tupelo Mississippi

https://questforstars.com/service/

the British group makes money selling a 'Aerostat Magazine'

there are also a bunch of science teams constantly launching from the North Pole and South Pole, some of the Japanese feats seem most impressive

on Earth Cars are a relatively dangerous way to travel, will AI taxis make it all safer? the World Health Organization says that 1.2 million people die each year in road traffic accidents, Motorcycle worse again people having serious injury or death after accidents, a Light Truck is also dangerous.

You could also reexamine statistic on Earth Number of People + Vehicles miles = Sum of all miles traveled by all vehicles or Vehicle miles x Passengers per vehicle and then compare with injuries and death. Train and bus carry people on Earth they are similarly safe as commercial flights and a train on Earth can cover large distances

if we put a machine Artificial Intelligence to fly craft and drive on Mars or Titan or drive a sub on Europa then no human colonist is lost, no human would ever die by Balloon off world.

Large Commercial Aircraft are safe but small private planes are very dangerous according to stats

the data on Earth

'Crash Epidemiology in the United States, 2000-2011'
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4888601/

91% of crashes occurred during the 3 h after sunrise or the 3 h prior to sunset. No crashes occurred in Alaska or Hawaii during this time period

The incidence of morbidity and mortality is high among hot-air balloon tour crashes, and the proportion of balloon crashes attributed to paid rides appears to have increased over time. In addition to examining the role of restraint systems, personal protective equipment, and power line emergency procedures in ballooning, injury prevention efforts should target factors such hard landings, object strikes, gondola instability, and occupant ejections, which are associated with balloon injuries and deaths. Crash outcomes may also improve with vehicle engineering that enables balloons themselves to absorb impact forces.

a 2013 video on Earth with humans a possibility of risks and deaths

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obq5gJrO3z0

Risks will already be taken with rockets and building a colony for people but one of the reasons I think small AI robots will be better pilots and its best not to put humans at risk

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2024-05-19 06:12:50)

tahanson43206 · 2024-05-19 06:12:29

For Mars_B4_Moon re topic in general...

It is possible you might be able to harness your enthusiasm for balloons on Mars ....

The information posted in #18 should be regarded as encouraging but not definitive.

SpaceNut is right now, at this very minute (I hope) mulling the possibility of creating a new Category for this forum.

The new category would be Projects.

If SpaceNut decides to create this new category, it will NOT be for discussion.

This forum has 20+ years of experience doing discussion, and your contributions of links and comments have helped to build a massive collection.

It is possible, if SpaceNut decides to proceed, for this forum to transition from all discussion to a combination of discussion and actual accomplishment.

In the context of ** this ** topic, accomplishment would be leading an effort that results in the flight of a scientific package using balloon transport.

If you think this is a good idea, please consider writing to SpaceNut in the Housekeeping topic, to encourage him to proceed.

We have a potential Forum on Large Ship, that would be managed by RobertDyck.

We have a potential Forum on SSTO Passenger Transport that would be managed by kbd512.

There are other members who have shown long term interest in specific technologies that might be interested in this new option.

(th)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-05-19 06:19:18

I encourage SpaceNut to do as he wishes with info posted while being respectful to users, I have no artistic copyright on material and I respect a discussion of ideas, privacy and I like to see a forward motion in space, civilization and forward movement in science. I simply discuss stuff on these forums or take part in debate here or read news articles on the net and take part in 'thought experiment' the info I read is already out there in public news article.

tahanson43206 · 2024-05-19 19:34:00

For Mars_B4_Moon ....

This post is about your enthusiasm for balloons on Mars.

As you've noted, I've been skeptical that balloons would ever amount to anything on Mars, but the recent initiative by PhotonBytes got me back thinking about the possibility.

The chart in Post #18 was created by ChatGPT4o with a bit of coaching from me. It appears to show that a 20 meter diameter balloon could lift a respectable science package, and one of 40 meters diameter could lift about 200 kilograms. In this evening's Google Meeting, kbd512 pointed out that the 200 kilogram lift balloon could carry a person with equipment to survey an area.

I asked Google about hot air balloons on Earth, and got this reply:

Sensors Technology used at air sports like in hot-air ...
The most common size of a hot. air balloon is a 3- to 4-seater that is approximately 20 meters tall and 15 meters in diameter. It can be generally classified into three parts: the envelope, the burner and the basket, in addition to the ropes and panels necessary for maneuvering.

On Mars a 15 meter diameter balloon could lift only a few kilograms, but if balloons can be made larger on Mars, then they'll be able to lift much more mass than I had been expecting.

I asked Google about large balloons, and it came up with the Chinese balloon that caused so much consternation in the US recently...

How big in diameter was the Chinese balloon?
The balloon was 200 feet (61 m) tall according to U.S. General Glen D. VanHerck. AI startup Synthetaic, using image data from Planet Labs spacecraft, reported the balloon's diameter as 148 feet (45 m). USNORTHCOM and NORAD Commander, General Glen VanHerck, estimated the payload weighed more than 2,000 pounds (910 kg).

On Mars, according to the chart in Post #18, a 45 meter balloon would be able to lift over 200 kilograms.

While that is not much compared to the 910 kg lift of the Chinese balloon (as reported) it is definitely enough to carry a person with equipment and supplies.

I'm encouraged to think your vision might come to pass after all, or at least some of it.

Caveat! The plot in Post #18 has NOT passed review by GW Johnson (or anyone else) so it may have to be revised.

However, a quick check by kbd512 (our webmaster) did not reveal any major obvious flaws, so we'll see.

To all... If anyone has the ability to run Python, please download the program ahead of Post #18, and see what results you get.

If anyone has questions about the design of the program, please ask!

(th)

SpaceNut · 2024-05-20 14:08:46

Good question China weather balloon or spy craft but we are not mars for what PhotonBytes is looking to do.

Balloon Tourist Flights on Earth by tahanson43206

Balloon or dirigible for Mars "hot air" or gas filled by tahanson43206

Automotive industry, Martian Balloons, automobile manufacture on Mars. by Mars_B4_Moon

Balloon Landing System for Mars: Phobos Station by tahanson43206

I know that we have others.

topic that wants to land Mega Igloo ice cavity in Korolev Crater by PhotonBytes

tahanson43206 · 2024-05-20 14:52:09

For SpaceNut re #23...

When you are looking for items to add to this topic, please be sure to scrub carefully to keep fantasy out of this topic.

It is not helpful for our readers if our members contribute links to fantasy in a topic that is intended to report on factual possibilities.

You, as administrator, have many many topics where you can encourage fantasy to our members' hearts' content.

The intent of this topic was defined in the opening post, as an attempt to collect the most accurate possible factual information we can find, so that our readers can make informed decisions about how to design a robotic balloon science package for use on Mars.

I am hoping this topic will attract contributions that show exactly what it will take for a science exploration balloon to perform a useful service on Mars.

GW Johnson sent me another copy of his spreadsheet to compute the flight characteristics of balloons on Mars, and I am planning to attempt to reconcile the computations performed by the spreadsheet with the results produced by the Python program shown earlier in this topic.

I expect the two computations to converge at some point but at the moment they do not because GW is looking at larger balloons than I did. Since the facts on the ground are the same, and since the formulae are the same, the two programs should produce similar or identical results.

I have invited careful study of the Python program by anyone, to confirm that it is performing it's calculations correctly. So far, as often happens in the NewMars community, we have no one who admits to having studied the program.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2024-05-20 16:32:46

tahanson43206 wrote:

For GW Johnson re reconciliation of two different computations....
Here is a sequence that I found for computation of a volume: =4*$K$5*B11^3/3
Here is another sequence prepared by ChatGPT4o for a Python computation:
5. Volume of a Sphere
The volume of a sphere is calculated using the formula:
Sphere Volume Formula: [ V_s = \frac{4}{3} \pi r^3 ]
V_s: Volume of the sphere (m³)
r: Radius of the sphere (m)
π (pi): Constant value (approximately 3.14)
We now know the volume (V) from the ideal gas law (approximately 3.72 m³). We can use this value to find the radius (r) of the sphere.
Finding the Radius: Set the volume obtained from the ideal gas law equal to the volume of the sphere and solve for the radius: [ V = V_s ] [ 3.72 , \text{m}^3 = \frac{4}{3} \pi r^3 ]
Isolate r by dividing both sides by (4/3)π and then taking the cube root: [ r^3 = \frac{3.72 , \text{m}^3} {\frac{4}{3} \pi} ] [ r = \sqrt[3]{ \frac{3.72 , \text{m}^3} {\frac{4}{3} \pi}} \approx 1.53 , \text{m} ]
6. Conclusion
The volume of a sphere required to hold 1 mole of hydrogen gas at the mean surface pressure (610 Pa) and temperature (0°C) on Mars is approximately 3.72 cubic meters. The corresponding radius of the sphere is approximately 1.53 meters.
What I'm hoping is that my spreadsheet attempt will deliver the same result as the Python attempt.
For a balloon of diameter 1.53*2 (3.06) meters, the volume should be 3.72 cubic meters.
I'd be interested in seeing results that our members might contribute, using a hand calculator or even pencil and paper.
(th)

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#1 2024-05-18 07:40:08

Balloon (balloons) on Mars - Facts vs Fantastic vision

#2 2024-05-18 07:40:48

Re: Balloon (balloons) on Mars - Facts vs Fantastic vision

#3 2024-05-18 07:41:45

Re: Balloon (balloons) on Mars - Facts vs Fantastic vision

Balloon Lift on Mars

#4 2024-05-18 07:41:59

Re: Balloon (balloons) on Mars - Facts vs Fantastic vision

Volume of Hydrogen Gas on Mars

#5 2024-05-18 07:42:20

Re: Balloon (balloons) on Mars - Facts vs Fantastic vision

Balloon Envelope for Hydrogen on Mars

#6 2024-05-18 08:18:28

Re: Balloon (balloons) on Mars - Facts vs Fantastic vision

Volume of a Balloon on Mars

#7 2024-05-18 09:09:50

Re: Balloon (balloons) on Mars - Facts vs Fantastic vision

#8 2024-05-18 09:18:44

Re: Balloon (balloons) on Mars - Facts vs Fantastic vision

#9 2024-05-18 10:52:25

Re: Balloon (balloons) on Mars - Facts vs Fantastic vision

#10 2024-05-18 12:05:08

Re: Balloon (balloons) on Mars - Facts vs Fantastic vision

#11 2024-05-18 12:15:51

Re: Balloon (balloons) on Mars - Facts vs Fantastic vision

#12 2024-05-18 12:41:46

Re: Balloon (balloons) on Mars - Facts vs Fantastic vision

#13 2024-05-18 12:43:20

Re: Balloon (balloons) on Mars - Facts vs Fantastic vision

#14 2024-05-18 14:36:20

Re: Balloon (balloons) on Mars - Facts vs Fantastic vision

#15 2024-05-18 18:43:06

Re: Balloon (balloons) on Mars - Facts vs Fantastic vision

#16 2024-05-18 18:46:21

Re: Balloon (balloons) on Mars - Facts vs Fantastic vision

Summary of Balloon Lift Project Efforts

#17 2024-05-18 18:48:22

Re: Balloon (balloons) on Mars - Facts vs Fantastic vision

#18 2024-05-18 18:59:37

Re: Balloon (balloons) on Mars - Facts vs Fantastic vision

#19 2024-05-19 05:14:04

Re: Balloon (balloons) on Mars - Facts vs Fantastic vision

#20 2024-05-19 06:12:29

Re: Balloon (balloons) on Mars - Facts vs Fantastic vision

#21 2024-05-19 06:19:18

Re: Balloon (balloons) on Mars - Facts vs Fantastic vision

#22 2024-05-19 19:34:00

Re: Balloon (balloons) on Mars - Facts vs Fantastic vision

#23 2024-05-20 14:08:46

Re: Balloon (balloons) on Mars - Facts vs Fantastic vision

#24 2024-05-20 14:52:09

Re: Balloon (balloons) on Mars - Facts vs Fantastic vision

#25 2024-05-20 16:32:46

Re: Balloon (balloons) on Mars - Facts vs Fantastic vision

Board footer