A Colonization solution?

MarsDog · 2005-05-14 12:29:21

http://www.parapundit.com/archives/002567.html]Toyota Opts For Robots As Japan Rejects Unskilled Immigrants

North and South America could eliminate need to import from China, Japan,
and other parts of the world by the use of advanced robotic technology.

Unionized automakers could still be part of the social fabric,
a subsidy to keep Union, Mafia, Military, Industrial alliance culture.

Would they benefit, as the http://gurukul.ucc.american.edu/ted/jap … m]Japanese Rice Farmers ?

= =

Advanced robotics would be a priority, enabling space capabilities.

Martian Republic · 2005-05-14 22:47:42

http://www.parapundit.com/archives/002567.html]Toyota Opts For Robots As Japan Rejects Unskilled Immigrants
North and South America could eliminate need to import from China, Japan,
and other parts of the world by the use of advanced robotic technology.
Unionized automakers could still be part of the social fabric,
a subsidy to keep Union, Mafia, Military, Industrial alliance culture.
Would they benefit, as the http://gurukul.ucc.american.edu/ted/jap … m]Japanese Rice Farmers ?
= =
Advanced robotics would be a priority, enabling space capabilities.

You can do the same thing by putting together a fair trade system that works for everybody if we choose to. But, going the Empire rout, works for nobody and that excludes the nation that is being the Empire.

Empire by there vary nature are thief on a national scale of holding everybody up at gun point and threatening them to give them money, resources or work for starvation wages or we will kill you. Empires primarily obtain wealth, by stealing it and not by making it. That why an Empire could never servive in space, they could never steal enough to make a space colony viable for mankind. We colonize Mars and Empires will become obsolete and totally non funtional.

Larry,

MarsDog · 2005-05-15 10:31:04

You can do the same thing by putting together a fair trade system that works for everybody if we choose to.

Difficulty is agreeing on what is fair. Best that could be implemented is equally applied rules. But "gunboat economics" and self serving policies ensure continuation of inequalities.

Currencies are manipulated to increase trade. And some national industries loose in the competition. When you add it up, there is an overall gain for the Empire.

The Empire is structured on inequality of rules, favoring the rulers.

Watched a recent interview of Kissinger. He thought it was enough to get sufficient numbers to agree to US policy (to rule the world ?).

==============

The coming quantum leap is in http://www.google.com/search?q=self+ass … 8]robotics, which will sepercede present methods.

Martian Republic · 2005-05-15 12:36:46

You can do the same thing by putting together a fair trade system that works for everybody if we choose to.
Difficulty is agreeing on what is fair. Best that could be implemented is equally applied rules. But "gunboat economics" and self serving policies ensure continuation of inequalities.
Currencies are manipulated to increase trade. And some national industries loose in the competition. When you add it up, there is an overall gain for the Empire.
The Empire is structured on inequality of rules, favoring the rulers.
Watched a recent interview of Kissinger. He thought it was enough to get sufficient numbers to agree to US policy (to rule the world ?).
==============
The coming quantum leap is in http://www.google.com/search?q=self+ass … 8]robotics, which will sepercede present methods.

Your right that with gun boat diplomacy will make these inequalities to continue.

Although there may be a net increase for the very wealthy people in an Empire for a short time, which is true. But, all Empires collapse, because of there own corruption, as they loot system until it collapses and then you have the end of the Empire. It is not a pretty picture and we don’t want to go there.

Larry,

MarsDog · 2005-05-15 23:05:27

US Empire has a chance - if it acts on ideals of honesty, fair play, equality.

It expouses democracy but supports dictators of convenience.

Sells out its friends, such as the http://www.google.com/search?q=kurds+ab … tf-8]Kurds.

US voters are in a very special position, collectively able to change history. But lack of self regulation, extravagent consumption, excluding others, lead to international conflicts.

The Empire will not have an abrupt collapse.
But it will be owned less and less by US voters and citizens.

Grypd · 2005-05-16 09:48:06

As technology advances what we call Empire changes and how our society changes too. The Empires of the 19th century where driven by mass industries like ship building and in mass production goods. The Empire was a place for these goods to be sold and for resources to be garnered. What we have seen is that with technology the efficiency gains has destroyed these type of Empires and what we have now is Empires of information and commercial control and of ideas.

The USA dominates the world not because it has a massive military or even in items produced but in its control of technology and in the idea that it is the superpower.

It seems with the invention of 3D printers and closer internet ties and E commerce that it will make the world more and more a place of information flow. How that will effect the USA I dont know.

Martian Republic · 2005-05-16 15:33:13

As technology advances what we call Empire changes and how our society changes too. The Empires of the 19th century where driven by mass industries like ship building and in mass production goods. The Empire was a place for these goods to be sold and for resources to be garnered. What we have seen is that with technology the efficiency gains has destroyed these type of Empires and what we have now is Empires of information and commercial control and of ideas.
The USA dominates the world not because it has a massive military or even in items produced but in its control of technology and in the idea that it is the superpower.
It seems with the invention of 3D printers and closer internet ties and E commerce that it will make the world more and more a place of information flow. How that will effect the USA I dont know.

You are right that things change with technology in relationship to governments, the citizens and the corporations or the way that commerce’s functions. That is definitely true.

But, what most people on this board fail to understand is, there is a philosophical and mental or conceptual difference between someone’s that adopts a Imperial concept of government and someone that has adopts a Republican concept of government. Your dealing with two different world views and your dealing with two different kinds of monetary policies and your dealing with two different concept of what wealth is too. You will also get two different results from the one with the Imperial Mind and the one the with the Republican Mind, not to be confused with the Republican Party, which is something that is entirely different.

The Imperial mind or Empires are so corrupt or mentally deficient, that it would be impossible for those people to build a space based society even if they wanted to. They don’t have the mental capability even if they wanted to do it, they can’t. Just for sake the argument, let say everybody here has an Imperial mind and we believe in Empires as the only way go and with all deficiencies that go with it. But, we are still the Martian Society and we are still fanatics about colonizing Mars, but some how we whined up taking over the United States Central Government. We still could not build that colony on Mars even controlling the Central Government of the United States and use it to do our bidding. We could still build those ships, habitats, those mining vehicles, etc., but we lack the mental capacity to be able to establish an economic system on Mars, because of our Imperial mind. Matter of fact, our Imperial mind would squelch any plan we choose to come up with to colonize Mars and it wouldn’t matter how much technology we had either and this would even include Star Trek type technology too. We still may be able to do some things in space, but our mental condition would make colonizing space impossible and that would include Mars too. Matter of fact, the reason that we don’t have a permanent base on the Moon and have a permanent base on Mars by now, is because of that mental condition that the United States is suffering from as a Nation and as a result of having that Imperial Mind problem.

But, if everybody had a Republican Government concept instead and we got control over the United States, we would be able to build that colony in space or Mars or both, because we are not having to deal with that mental problem that handicapping us from achieving our goals to Colonize Mars.

I have dropped the idea that we should build a City on Mars in other space forums too. Several of them told me that it couldn’t be done. My response was, if I intend to do it with the economic concept that most people on this board have on how it can be done, then I would agree with you, it can’t be done. As a matter of fact, it is physically impossible to build a city on Mars, if I’m relying on the economic concepts that most people think are the economic principle that make things function down here. Unless we do a major restructuring of the economic system and thought processes down here on economics, it will make any possibility of colonizing Mars impossible.

Having the right kind of idea’s or concepts can have and does have a bigger impact on our space effort, than technology, funding, etc. Most people will yell at you and say no it doesn’t. Because if they can’t taste is, touch it, smell it, see it, hear it or it doesn’t come out in print form from the stock market, then it not real to them and they reject even if it is real, because they just can’t see it. You can’t touch an idea or physically handle it like you would a physical object.

Larry,

MarsDog · 2005-05-16 17:45:48

The Imperial mind or Empires are so corrupt or mentally deficient

Big that Eat the Small
Fast that Eat the Slow
Strong Kill the Weak
Golden Rule: Those who Rule get the Gold

The Empire is of information exploitation, assymetrical access.
US predator drone plane can track and kill a terrorist suspect, undetected.

Might is right, the needs of the Empire have to be satisfied.

Martian Republic · 2005-05-17 07:48:00

The Imperial mind or Empires are so corrupt or mentally deficient
Big that Eat the Small
Fast that Eat the Slow
Strong Kill the Weak
Golden Rule: Those who Rule get the Gold
The Empire is of information exploitation, assymetrical access.
US predator drone plane can track and kill a terrorist suspect, undetected.
Might is right, the needs of the Empire have to be satisfied.

What your suggesting is a recipe for mass murder through starvation and the reduction of 80% of the US population who will be forced into slave labor with no healthcare and/or in shanty towns across America with no sewers or running water or electricity either. That those 80% of the American Population will have absolutely no hope to elevate themselves out of this poverty, nor will there children have that option either. This is the kind of America that you suggest that we embrace. But unless I miss my guess, most of the people on this board will be in that lower 80% of the American population that will get marginalized when your idea of Empire comes to pass.

I'm old enough that I remember an American where over 80% was doing very well and there were policies that would have help the remaining 20% or given them the option to elevate themselves out of poverty and into the middle class. You defend elimination the middle class America and further oppressing the poor in America which represent 80% of our population and you see nothing wrong with that. You try and act like your defending the minimum wage person from high prices, because of those unions manufactured goods and services. But, where are those minimum wage job at, any way? There at restaurants, hotel, grocery store and department stores, etc. But, who will be the people who will have the money to go to those restaurants, hotel, department stores or car dealership? It will obviously be somebody that has some extra money to spend so they can eat out, go on vacation, or buy something they need or want like a car. So you wipe out those union jobs and the high wages that go with them, you also wipe out most of those minimum wage jobs too, because those union wages represent majority of the people that are going to be using those goods and services or have the money to use them. Beside, if there are manufacturing with union wages, you can work your way up from a minimum wage job to a better life in the future, because of those jobs. But, if there is no jobs to get and expecially good jobs to get out there, then there no hope you at all for.

Larry,

Grypd · 2005-05-17 18:14:31

Empire as a mindset only has as an opposite Anarchy. There have been many republics that became empires and even more democracies. As an example Rome was a republic that eventually had to change its political structure as a result of becoming an empire and being unable to deal with the growth strains. Athens the first republic and possibly the truest form (as long as you were not a woman or a slave) where everyone was in the goverment it formed a strong empire. Buts its republicanism was its actual downfall when it came into conflict with a very efficient focused state(Sparta). It shows that though democracies and republics form strong empires they can be very slow to react to events. It takes time to get consensus.

And many Empires have actually resulted in a greater enfranchisement of there populations as the Empire grows. Britain and France both being a good example.

Still all these Empires have one difference than what we are talking about here they mostly went to other countries and took them over as well as form there own colony clients. When we go to space there is no other countries there so it will be colonisationary Empires only.

SpaceNut · 2005-05-18 05:32:35

I pose the question what makes or is a city?

You say Martian Republic that you had to drop the idea to build a City on Mars in other space forums and that Several of them told you that it couldn’t be done.

One do not give up that dream for only time can deny or give the answer to it.

To answer the posed question of a city is that once we have gone to explore with the first mission, the second and so on. Then what? The formation of a city occurs when a population grows within a given location.

If with each mission that we were to land on mars and we were to leave behind a chosen first mars resident from each crew then slowly this increase with each mission these numbers eventually with in a small number of miles do grow into a city without realizing it over time. It is the size of the population that defines it as a city or a town, village or other.

Martian Republic · 2005-05-18 12:13:19

I pose the question what makes or is a city?
You say Martian Republic that you had to drop the idea to build a City on Mars in other space forums and that Several of them told you that it couldn’t be done.
One do not give up that dream for only time can deny or give the answer to it.
To answer the posed question of a city is that once we have gone to explore with the first mission, the second and so on. Then what? The formation of a city occurs when a population grows within a given location.
If with each mission that we were to land on mars and we were to leave behind a chosen first mars resident from each crew then slowly this increase with each mission these numbers eventually with in a small number of miles do grow into a city without realizing it over time. It is the size of the population that defines it as a city or a town, village or other.

My point is, a city on Mars is not going to just happen and it not going grow up from a few colonist on the planet Mars. The economic system that we need to put into place to run that city is not going to just happen either, because of the market forces or some other crazy idea you might have out there. We are also not going to use some failed economic system like Communism or Capitalism, because they don't work either. The concept of what wealth is and how to generate it along with the tool principle of manufacturing and how it apply to space or Mars of to build that city by most of the people on this forum, will be dead on launch pad too. When it come to how to put together the technical capabilities to do it, we have a lot of engineers on this board and they can build the individual pieces with no problem. But, when it comes to putting everything together into a functional economic system and funding it, they are mentally deficient and they fall down on the job when it come to building a city on Mars.

What I'm saying is, most people on this forum when it comes to ideas of how to build that city on Mars, have ideas that have inherent flaws in them that make building a city on Mars impossible. Nor could they run that city if one were already on Mars with all the infrastructure in place to do it. Nor do they have a viable strategy to pay for the building that city on Mars either.

Now back to those two people that challenged my claim that we could build that city on Mars. They even used logic to show my why it couldn't be done. One said, just look at what it takes to just make a pencil and you will understand why it can't be done. Look at everything that it take to make just a pencil, then consider everything else you have to have to have a functional society on Mars. The other person got with a group of other people and to tried to figure out at what point they should expect a break even point for having to invest in a Mars colony and/or be able to have a farming, mining, manufacturing system that would be self-sustaining and they could find point no matter what they did. I basically said, if I'm bound by the same rules economic by which you made your judgment on, that we can't build that city on Mars or run that City on Mars, then I will agree with you that we can't do it. Not only that, I also know why we can't build that city on Mars by using those principle too and I won't dispute you claim under the economic rules that you think you know to be true and I will not challenge you claim that we can't build that city on Mars. I will agree with you, building city on Mars is impossible

If I'm stuck with the same mindset they you have, then it is absolutely true, we can't build a city on Mars. But, fortunately I'm not bound by the same mindset that you two are bound by, but have a different mindset which does not limit or restrict my plans to build a city on Mars, then I'm not limited like you are by not being able to build that city on Mars. So if I'm serious about building a city on Mars, then I have to have a solution to the problem that you two people mention or I don't have a valid plan for building that city on Mars. The second guy said, OK how were you planning on doing it. This is a guy in his mid fifties who obviously has worked with NASA late sixties and early seventies time frame. I recalled the Apollo program and he said, boy that when we were really going like gang buster into space and things really went fast and we did a lot of things to promote and advance going into space. He said, I wish we could go back to that period and do some more of that. I said, that is basically where I was going with my plan. To return an FDR/JFK major infrastructural project based on government generated credit to finance it. He said, Oh, OK. I think I understand where your coming from. I said, otherwise your right, it can't be done.

I suppose to some up everything that I’m trying to say in just a few words is:

If they can keep there flawed mindset of economics and we may not go to Mars or build a city there. Or they can give up there flawed mindset of economic and maybe have a change to go to Mars and build a city there. But, if they are the ones making the economic policies and they refuse to give up there flawed economic policies and are the ones making the plans for colonization of Mars. They will consistently make the wrong choices, because of there flawed mindset. They will consistently sabotage the Mars colonization program, because it goes contrary to there flawed mindset as to who they are or how they think reality really is and they won’t or can’t understand why there plans don’t work. They will make the same mistake over and over again and they can’t figure out why everything keeps going wrong on them. It never occurs to them that they have a flawed concept that doesn’t work. So they will consistently use there flawed concept no matter how many times it doesn’t work and expecting a different result from the last time used there flawed plan to accomplish there mission.

I hope you don’t think that I’m being proud about it. But, I originally started off with the same flawed mindset myself, but once I figured out these flawed plans didn’t work, I stop using those flawed plans. Don’t take my word for it, TEST OUT YOUR IDEAS AND SEE IF THEY WORK. Create a laboratory experiment and see if they work. If they don’t work, give them up and try new ideas until you find ideas that do work. But, don’t keep throwing the same flawed policies there that don’t work and then expect a different result from the last time you threw that flawed policies out there. That is silly, to expect a different result with known flawed policies that has a track record of not working.

Larry,

srmeaney · 2005-07-02 07:33:58

We must ultimatly agree that Colonizing Mars in any acceptable way is going to cost a fortune and take global resources. You cant come waltzing up and declare that the USA will accept support of it's Space Colonization policies as though there were no other option or need, as GWB has done. Frankly it scares people especially when the PENTAGON is wispering loudly that the USA 'must control access to Space'. The time is rapidly past when the Super powers should have come together as one and declared Space will be it's own Nation and the scientific and economic advances to be found there will be the property of that Nation.

Unlike the Current move to forgive the debts of impoverished nations, there can be no such debt forgiveness for a new civilization in Space such as Mars because the commitment to finance it comes from the inherent wealth of that new nation and the willingness to recognise that state and it's wealth before it even has a single citizen.

Mars will have a wealth that exceeds the way we value things in the current economy. Mars will have a value based on it's ability to provide a place for life to flourish. One billion people could be supported by a terraformed Mars. At the cost of twenty billion to get each person there with the food they will need in the first year of agricultural tooling up, Mars has an inherent value of twenty billion billion dollars. This is far in excess of the fifty million billion that must be spent to send ten million colonists for Mars colonization here and now.
This economic value system is how we must think about Earth.
The Earth has the ability to support fifty billion people but only if it is done right. Mars, only one billion, but our eggs will no longer be in the same basket, So it will be worth it.

Palomar · 2005-07-02 10:44:44

Big that Eat the Small
Fast that Eat the Slow
Strong Kill the Weak
Golden Rule: Those who Rule get the Gold
The Empire is of information exploitation, assymetrical access.
US predator drone plane can track and kill a terrorist suspect, undetected.
Might is right, the needs of the Empire have to be satisfied.

*You forgot one:

The Pride that goeth before the Fall.

--Cindy

Grypd · 2005-07-02 10:50:34

Mars has zero value to the majority of the Human race right now it may have great potential but no one will spend money on potential they cannot use. Mars will only have a value when there is a very significant population there and there is either a miraculous discovery and or flight costs reduce incredibly beyond what is current or even planned.

Unfortunatly right now this is not the case. So the big guestion is why go to Mars if it as stated worthless though with great potential. Well there is the Human drive to colonize but it would need a lot of resources from a host nation to manage to send the small amounts of people possible. Certain groups (religous, oppressed in some way) who have the financial capacity could do it to gain the freedom.

So how can we get to send people to Mars. I dont know.

But I do know that the only way is to be able to reduce the cost to send a person and that means to be able to manufacture, fuel and stock larger vessels out of the Earths pull. In that way costs can be brought down to a point where it may be feasible to go for colonisation rather than just exploration. And with national pride possibly involved then there may be a race with some unknown nation to send and start the colonisation of Mars.

C M Edwards · 2005-07-21 15:03:15

Hmm... Australia and Georgia didn't turn out too bad in the end. Perhaps we could send the dregs of society to Mars.

That could be my ticket...

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-03-02 07:00:05

an old thread worth reading again maybe

Sometimes the expanding was brutal in the past to acquire wealth, gold and also slaves. Going back to ancient times Egypt, China, the Greeks, the ancient cultures of Arabia and Mesopotamians there was expansion into other lands, maritime nations such as the city-states of Greece and Phoenicia often established colonies to farm what they believed was uninhabited land there might have been wandering nomads or barbarians. Expanding has existed since ancient times to far off sand, soil and rock, establishing control over territories or sometimes a King said he was picked by 'God' or backed by gods, an imperial fascist communist angle with peoples for but also peaceful farming the purpose of cultivation, possibly involving settling, history of mankind shows it has an imperial history with the establishment of colonialism, there are also colonies and protectorates, islands controlled by French, British or Dutch, designated territories – in the world, including Puerto Rico, Guam, and Bermuda, sometimes locals might consider outsiders in the Capital Cities 'Colonizers' for example Okinawan attitude and Hokkaido attitudes to Tokyo or independence movements in Alaska, Texas, California or Scotland attitudes to English London British culture.

17th-century Dutch who swindled and violently pushed Native Americans out

Aurora Theatre’s ‘Manahatta’ links 17th century’s rapacious capitalists to those who caused the ’08 financial crisis
https://www.berkeleyside.org/2024/02/20 … -manahatta

SNP considers 'disengagement' protest in Commons over Gaza debate
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- … s-68417105

Vladimir Putin justifies his imperial aims in Tucker Carlson interview
https://theconversation.com/vladimir-pu … iew-223395

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