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It is more reliable to establish a government (with a constitution and laws), define it's territory, define it's resources, allow it to fund it's own expansion against that wealth by foreign debt financing corporate contracts and select the people suited to become it's citizens. This avoids the very unhealthy policy of shipping in religious nutters and serial killers (as has been the case for civilizations created in the last five hundred plus years) and having "sorted the wheat from the chaff" expect to build a civilization from that pool of useless degenerates that are left.
Most importantly, it can, with the sort of wealth that will never be pulled together by the private sector or nations of Earth, do what must be done. Colonize Mars and Even Space itself. After all, if you can establish a government over Mars, why not Declare a Space station to be a City-state and give it it's own economy?
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I still see no way how any country could be convinced to give out the loan.
It's also pretty sure that there will be several organizations with their own approach for colonization given all the different opinions on how it should be done. Just take this forum for an example. It doesn't mean only one particular way can lead to success, though.
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Just as long as you dont preach the values of a market economy. The last thing I need to do is spend my time pointing out how the pro-NAZI investment Bankers of Wallstreet having come to America's financial rescue with Saudi oil money were the only reason the USA has outlived the Soviet Communist planned Economy. Although not by much apparently.
I still see no way how any country could be convinced to give out the loan.
It's also pretty sure that there will be several organizations with their own approach for colonization given all the different opinions on how it should be done. Just take this forum for an example. It doesn't mean only one particular way can lead to success, though.
Only one point of view will be allowed to run it all. Mine has more appeal where it matters.
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While a very loose constitution guaranteeing basic human rights and perhaps republican government to all people on Mars might be a good thing, I do not think that a single Martian government would be a good thing. Different people will want different types of societies, and since the nations of Earth are already established, Mars offers various groups the chance to establish their own communities as they see fit. On a planet where people must live in enclosed settlements with artificial environments, a city-state system such as what existed in ancient Greece will probably develop. To me this seems like a good system. Individual communities will best be able to address their own concerns without interference from a planetwide government and without being forced to adhere to a single Martian ideology.
Just as long as you dont preach the values of a market economy. The last thing I need to do is spend my time pointing out how the pro-NAZI investment Bankers of Wallstreet having come to America's financial rescue with Saudi oil money were the only reason the USA has outlived the Soviet Communist planned Economy. Although not by much apparently.
Even if these outrageous claims were true they don't explain why the Soviet Union collapsed. U.S. pressure certainly helped, but the USSR collapsed from within because it was unworkable. It is not completely possible to judge the pros and cons of a planned economy from the Soviet Union because communist economics there was tied to a despotic regime that repressed it's people, which is also a recipe for failure. Nevertheless, the evidence seems to indicate that a planned economy, regardless of government, is less productive than a capitalist one and is probably unworkable in the long term. In light of how many people it has killed, communism is too dangerous an experiment to be tried again anywhere, even on Mars.
Only one point of view will be allowed to run it all.
Then your civilization shall stagnate. Innovation will cease. Corruption in government will be rampant. Learning shall be reserved to a privileged class. The civilization will enter a dark age. Probably someone will take advantage of the civilization to become a new dictator. In western Europe in the centuries following the demise of the Roman empire, the situation was more or less what I described, and the civilization was one in which only one point of view was tolerated.
Mine has more appeal where it matters.
More appeal with whom? If this forum is any guide, I don't think we'll see the people of the world rushing to embrace your plan.
Far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the Western Spiral arm of the Galaxy lies a small unregarded yellow sun.
-The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
by Douglas Adams
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The problem is reddragon, that neither the Communist or the market economy / Free trade function and both economic system must both collapse at some point in time because of there own corruption stealing from the physical economy. If there not a third type of economic system out there and if we don't know what that third economic system is, then we are in trouble.
But, as to there being more than one type of monetary policies in space, no there will be just one monetary policies in space. Neither Communism or Capitalism can servive in space or on Mars either. Matter of fact, Communism and Capitalism don't function very well down here either. No only did Communism collapse because it is dysfunctional, but, Capitalism is also in the process of collapsing, because it is dysfunctional also. The reason that these two system will not function at all in space at all, is because they do not have a self-sustaining ecological system to steal from to support there bankrupt economic system. Then these two economic system can only function for a relatively short period of time before they steal enough resources from the planet, from general population, before they cause a complete economic collapse and everything goes to pot.
Larry,
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Even if these outrageous claims were true they don't explain why the Soviet Union collapsed. U.S. pressure certainly helped, but the USSR collapsed from within because it was unworkable. It is not completely possible to judge the pros and cons of a planned economy from the Soviet Union because communist economics there was tied to a despotic regime that repressed it's people, which is also a recipe for failure. Nevertheless, the evidence seems to indicate that a planned economy, regardless of government, is less productive than a capitalist one and is probably unworkable in the long term. In light of how many people it has killed, communism is too dangerous an experiment to be tried again anywhere, even on Mars.
The USSR collapsed because it is hard to govern when foreign states are financing terrorism in your country while the beuracracy is turning into capitalists.
you might want to look closely at the current goings on in China. There is "a new and unexpected revolution" as previously exclusive party decisions are now being made at the local level by community governments to address the needs of the people in a given community. Perhaps this "Communist regieme" has learned the lessons of the fall of the Soviets?
Ps. Communism is not the dangerous experiment, beuracracy is. Or did you vote away your right to self government in favour of governance by the personnel department?
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That's a pessimistic view, Martian Republic, but I see your point. Capitalism certainly has a lot of flaws too. What third economic system are you thinking of? As long as a democratic or republican government is maintained, some changes to the economic system for Mars might be a good thing, depending on what the changes are.
Or did you vote away your right to self government in favour of governance by the personnel department?
I tend to like Locke's theories on government. In the state of nature we all have certain inalienable rights and the right to govern our own actions. But the state of nature is unsatisfactory.Therefore we establish governments. We entrust our natural power to the governments in order that they will protect our inalienable rights. The government rules by the grace of the people. If we decide to remove a government or government officials and replace it/them, we have that right. This is the basic idea behind a republic such as the United States. It is a type of indirect self government.
Far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the Western Spiral arm of the Galaxy lies a small unregarded yellow sun.
-The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
by Douglas Adams
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While a very loose constitution guaranteeing basic human rights and perhaps republican government to all people on Mars might be a good thing, I do not think that a single Martian government would be a good thing. Different people will want different types of societies, and since the nations of Earth are already established, Mars offers various groups the chance to establish their own communities as they see fit. On a planet where people must live in enclosed settlements with artificial environments, a city-state system such as what existed in ancient Greece will probably develop. To me this seems like a good system. Individual communities will best be able to address their own concerns without interference from a planetwide government and without being forced to adhere to a single Martian ideology.
I can agree with this in principle, but I wonder how best to implement this kind of system on a new land. Yeah, when some people decide to go to Mars and found a community, they can set their own rules that work within their society, but what if that rules condradict rules of a neighboring society? How are we going to define the border between such "states" or their spheres of influence?
F.e. if 10.000 Indians would set themselfs up next to a very small community of say 200 Finnish Laestidians, what would be the rights of those later mentioned? Would the Finnish eventually have to comply to the rules and customs of the Indians and their maybe Guru leader that led them to Mars? Or if it is a democracy, would the Finnish then only have 200 votes in this 10200 people community? What if the Finnish could keep their independence, whose rules should be complied to about acquiring ownership of the surrounding lands? If those two societies maybe have conflicting rules on how to acquire land, maybe both claiming the same good spot of land to terraform and make into a good place to feed their people?
It could let to conflicts, wich is something Mars, specially in the early days can not afford. So I beliewe there must be universal system of acquiring ownership on Mars, so if there are two communities that are close to each others, they would have to respect the ownership of each other, and become trading partners (and nothing hinders wars as much as trade) and respectful of each others.
But except from such a role for a unified Martian government, I beliewe it should not have any other responsibility, or at least as laisser faire as possible. Then such communities of different cultures could have their own systems of governance, but if aqcuiring ownership is based upon a universal (martian) system of say f.e. some radius around a settlement, or how much terraforming of their surrounding lands that community has been able to make, those communities would essentially compete with each others in terraforming as much land as possible, to get as much people as possible and so on and so forth.
And those societies would also cooperate in bigger projects of the terraforming process, f.e. when it comes to the athmosphere or heating the planet, maybe even buying services from each others, f.e. by paying other communities to drill for greenhouse gases in their vicinity if maybe sitting on a top of a huge such well and such.
When this will come to be, then those communities would all in all effects just work and intermingle as companies in a single economy. Why then not just go all the way, as there must of course be someone to pay for the travel and settling of each of those communities, and see those communities as the companies they essentially are. Some companies could then have some kind of commune system of joint ownerships, others would in all effects just be shareholding democracys and others would just put up representive democracies and so on an so forth all kinds of mixes of this all.
And then, when having a system of companies setting their own laws in regards of internal affairs, some of them will, like we know in our societies, outsource. They can maybe decide to buy a set of law system from a neighboring companie, for simplicity sake, or two or three colonization companies would jointly set up a special law, arbitration and protection company that from whom they would buy their system of laws, their judgements when legal conflicts arise and even policing. Then this companie can begin to expand and compete with others in providing laws for the citizens of the various companies, if that very company does not require people to adhere only to their own laws.
Laws, arbitrations (judgements) and even policing will then essentially just become a market commodity like any other, and that will ensure that people of different cultures can have their own legal systems, without interference from a centralized global Mars government, where a simple majority would supress the rest like we know to often can happen.
Leifur
Es. [url=http://www.newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2776]Private creation and enforcement of law on Mars
Old-Icelandic/ Anarco-Capitalistic system on Mars[/url]
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>>>That's a pessimistic view, Martian Republic, but I see your point. Capitalism certainly has a lot of flaws too.<<<
It not being pessimistic. I just stating a fact that neither Communism or Capitalism are functional economic system and are hopelessly flawed and can not function on Mars as planetary economic system. If there is no third option economic policy or one can't be created, then any serious colonization of Mars is a hopeless goal that can't be achieved.
>>>What third economic system are you thinking of? <<<
There is in fact a third economic system that has functioned in the past that could be resurrected that could fill the bill of basing Mars Colony around and could power that economy and make it a functional society.
>>>Quote
Or did you vote away your right to self government in favour of governance by the personnel department?<<<
They are governed by the consent of those that are being governed and they also have the right to remove that consent if they don't think there being governed properly. Then the have the right to setup a new government to serve there needs to have certain things done or not done and that will be by there consent too.
>>>I tend to like Locke's theories on government.<<<
John Locke's is agent of the same Capitalist System dysfunctional and is not the bases that the US Constitution or the principle written therein or has any bases for a third economic system either.
>>>In the state of nature we all have certain inalienable rights and the right to govern our own actions. But the state of nature is unsatisfactory. Therefore we establish governments. We entrust our natural power to the governments in order that they will protect our inalienable rights. The government rules by the grace of the people. If we decide to remove a government or government officials and replace it/them, we have that right. This is the basic idea behind a republic such as the United States. It is a type of indirect self government.<<<
The actual historical foundation for the US Constitution goes back to the Council of Florence where all the different Christian Religion meet during the middle of the Dark Ages for a conference. They basically compared note as to what Christian belief system should be. But, they also went over type of economic system that we put into place to get us out of this dark age that they were currently in. It later solidified as a Government owned and operated Central Banking system in America after the American Revelation. They also went over what type of government we want to develop, which was a sovereign nation state based on a common wealth system of government. They went over what they wanted to base science on also, which set the foundation of the European Renaissance that happened about forty or year or so later. They got most of there source material from Islam religion, because they were currently in there own Renaissance too. So they appealed to them to be at that Florence too, which they did. Since there Renaissance was based on the Greek Renaissance that had collapsed several centuries before Christ or the Christian Church. They showed up with Greek concepts of Republic Government base on a general welfare concept. They also showed up with Sphirics and Platonic solids, which became the foundation for true science Europe and which tip off the Renaissance in Europe too.
Then we have Liboniz who continued this tradition and it was the works of Liboniz that young Ben Franklin read when he was about 17 or 18 years old. He went to Germany and some of the followers of Liboniz were there and had his stuff, Ben was there for several days and that where Ben Franklin made his discussion as to what he was going to do life. Which ultimately lead to the American Revolution and the US Constitution which he was the guiding light of. The Puritan also were after this tradition too and they were the ones that setup Massachusetts and there leader was able to get there charter from the King of England with the right to generate credit internally inside the Massachusetts colony. I don't think the King of England fully understood what he was give away to what became the Massachusetts colony or the economic possibility of them being able to control the right to issue the own money and credit. After they had a sufficiently large enough population and with that right to generate money and credit, they had the right to finance there own internal improvement, which they did. They started the process of industrializing and generally building up there colony. The British withdraw the right to generate money and credit and bankrupted most of the factories, foundaries, such thing. That was forty year before the American Revolution War. Alexander Hamilton First National Bank was based on the Massachusetts colony banking system, Along with the Second National Banking System that came later. Under Lincoln, he used Treasure Notes called Green Backs. Under Lincoln and immediately following and the industrialization of the United States under this system, it became known as the "AMERICAN SYSTEM OF ECONOMICS". FDR went back to Lincoln’s Treasury Notes to finance the American recovery during the "GREAT DEPRESSION" of 1929 stock market crash. John Kennedy started in that direction with the Silver Certificate, which was based on Treasury Notes like FDR and Lincoln did. After John F. Kennedy was assinated, they were quietly withdrawn form circulation.
Your question was:
Is there a third Economic System around.
Yelp!
At least in the history books, that is.
Larry,
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Hey, srmeaney,
You seem to have this obsession with some un-named Space Common Wealth Country and being it leader.
Well, some time I have these fantasy of being President of the United States and what I would do to save the United States and even the rest of the world from there own distruction. In that fantasy roll I even imagine what it would take to build bases on the Moon and Cities on Mars in a forty to fifty year time frame.
Like I'm real aggressive with my plans and you seem to be real aggressive with your plans. So what about having dual between the American President and Space Common Wealth Leader. Do it in kind of mock face off and see what come out and do it just for fun.
Of course we are going to have to have some rules and maybe even a moderator to sound the buzzard when we go too far some crazy idea. If we want to challenge the moderator with the buzzard, then we have to prove that it can be done or we will have to withdraw our plan, because it wouldn’t work or we can’t prove that it would work.
“THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES CHALLENGES THE PRESIDENT OF THE SPACE COMMON WEALTH TO FACE OFF OR A DUAL”!
Larry,
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You seem to have this obsession with some un-named Space Common Wealth Country and being it leader.
You seem to have an obsession with not reading what I have actually said. If you had, you would have noticed the complete avoidance of the idea of "El Presidente du Mars". Commonwealth is an equal share of the responsibility of government, one of the many responsibilities that come with citizenship (like the responsibility of shooting elected leaders who turn out to be totally corrupt vermin).
“THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES CHALLENGES THE PRESIDENT OF THE SPACE COMMON WEALTH TO FACE OFF OR A DUAL”!
Yeah, right. You just want another Australian to stand outside the Whitehouse with his luggage and demand an appointment with the President because you cant get a clean shot through the bay window.
If we want to challenge the moderator with the buzzard, then we have to prove that it can be done or we will have to withdraw our plan, because it wouldn’t work or we can’t prove that it would work.
Now why would I want to withdraw the perfect plan? Mine has everything but flag waving nationalism and religious fanaticism. Two things we can all do without.
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“THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES CHALLENGES THE PRESIDENT OF THE SPACE COMMON WEALTH TO FACE OFF OR A DUAL”!
All right... post and we will run a no comment poll to which everyone votes. Try to restrict a fully developed concept to a single scrolling post (so you dont have to flip to the next page)... And Adrian will be irritated. Despite the concepts for colonizing mars, Were eating up NEW MARS server space.
Post yours as "The Martian Republic" any time you like. Then I will post mine. Then we can bully folks into a vote on the subject.
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“THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES CHALLENGES THE PRESIDENT OF THE SPACE COMMON WEALTH TO FACE OFF OR A DUAL”!
All right... post and we will run a no comment poll to which everyone votes. Try to restrict a fully developed concept to a single scrolling post (so you dont have to flip to the next page)... And Adrian will be irritated. Despite the concepts for colonizing mars, Were eating up NEW MARS server space.
Post yours as "The Martian Republic" any time you like. Then I will post mine. Then we can bully folks into a vote on the subject.
As President of the United States I make my acceptance speech and have taken the oath of office as President United States. I have received this challenge from this guy who claims to be the Space Common Wealth Government to a contest, to see who can build a city on Mars first. Since I think this would be worth while mission, so I have accepted that challenge. I believe that this is a worthwhile challenge, because I intend to rebuild America and set the economic policies to rebuild the rest of the world too and this Mars colony will only an extension of this new policy..
But, before I tell you what we intend to do in this space contest, I would like to go over some recent history with you know where we came from and where we want to go to. To save America, the American people had to demand that George Bush and Dick Cheney be impeached, because of war crimes, racketeering, treason and such high crimes against the America and the rest of the world too. There has also been a 30 or 40 years of shutting down of the US Economy even before George Bush came to office. The last major remnant of the once might US Industrial Economy is now on the verge of being shut down which are the Auto and Aero-space manufacturing industries. Before I came into office, the former President was deliberately shutting down the US Economy, which I'm going to have to reverse for the good of the American People and even for the good of people worldwide. Most of the laws that have been made in the United States over the last 30 to 40 years will have to be thrown out and we will go back to the old rule before this time.
What I'm going to do to salvage the US Economy is first have an economic conference with the rest of the world.
1. Have a worldwide economic conference with other major to deal with a worldwide economic collapse that was caused by these big banks and financial people in Wall Street and London and in other places. At this Conference I'm are going to put these items on the agenda and those other countries may put some thing else on the agenda too. But, here my list:
A. We put the worldwide private banking system into bankruptcy reorganization under individual government owned Central banking system. In other words the Central Governments of those individual countries will be the ones generating there own credit instead of a handful of private bankers.
B. We will setup a fix exchange rate and the value of each currency will be set up by the Central Governments of each nation and based on a Gold Reserve System. Not to be confused with Gold System. For when we do choose to trade with each other there will be a fix exchange on goods being sold in each country of what those goods are worth.
C. We will agree to setup limited trade bearer to protect our own and everybody else home industries in the different countries that are trading with each other.
D. We all agree, that a nation is sovereign and is the highest power within there own territory. There sovereignty supersedes all private interest, debts, by foreign or domestic lenders if it conflicts with the General Welfare of there own people. Then that government can choose to declare that debt void and non existent and all other government will recognize there authority in there own country and will not send out troops to invade that country or try to defend those creditor interest in that foreign country either. We also agree that we will not violate another sovereign nation for any other reason than for self-dense purposes only. The Iraq war, was a criminal act by the United States and any future such action are unacceptable.
E. We will build a worldwide infrastructure project for the good of all nations so everybody can participate and not be just for a few nations. So that every ones benefits assuming that they agree with these terms.
But, now let talk about the infrastructures that we are going to build in America. As I mentioned earlier both the Air Craft industries and the car industries are in trouble in our country, because of this collapsing economy. We currently have too many car manufacturing plants. Half the car manufacturing will stay where they are making car, but we are going to use the other half of the car manufacturing plants to build something else for us that we need built. We are going to use those other car factories to rebuild the rail roads, levitated trains, subway, trolleys, nuclear power plants, etc. We are going to go back to Hill Burtan Act for hospitals and we will be doing other internal infrastructural projects to rebuild America.
Now I know what I want to do, but now we have to have a way to pay for all this stuff or I'm just blowing smoke rings. It interesting, but pass you hand past it and it gone unless I have some way to pay for it. Which I do by the way. I can use what Alexander Hamilton used, which is a government own and operated Central Banking System for generating credit or use what Abraham Lincoln and FDR used which was US Treasury Department or Treasury Notes. I'm going to have to generate a trillion to two trillion dollars of long term credit for the first year to make any serious dent in trying to restart the US Economy. I will have to generate every year after that at least another one trillion dollars worth of long term credit to invest in need infrastructure that will power the US Economy. If we don’t this, we will have a collapsing US Economy which is useless when it comes to building a city on Mars. I need a growing economy and a collapsing economy would be useless to me if intend to do some major space project.
Now I'm ready take on that challenge by the Space Common Wealth Guy. What I would do is:
1. Follow John F. Kennedy lead in making a national goal to build a city of 100,000 people on Mars and do it in a forty to fifty year time frame. It would be a crash program to accomplish it within this set time frame or otherwise it would drift into the future and probably never get done.
It can't be done within our current technology or within the current infrastructure that we have to complete this project even if we wanted to. We are going to have to clime way out on a limb to develop new technologies and build the infrastructure to achieve our goal of 100,000 people on Mars in forty to fifty years and assuming that it possible even then. I'm going to dispense with the technical part of how to do this for right now, so may post doesn't get too long or longer than it needs to be for right now.
At this point I would give NASA a Charter to build a Base on the Moon and another Charter to build a City on Mars. They will also need a way to finance such a project too, so I would run them a line of credit of between 100 to 200 billion dollars of credit per year for fifty years or five to ten trillion dollars to fund the project. I would also have to setup other financial arangement to also promote this project and make it happen. I would also setup a constitution for that city to protect there citizens of Mars from either corporation or bankers or even from the United States and give them Constitutional rights for protect and to garantee home rule. Once that had an industrial base and a sufficiently large enough population, they wil thenl have the right to generate up to 7,000 of credit per person on Mars as long as they use it internally. They can not use there credit on earth with interfering with other countries on earth. The right to generate internal credit is for build there economy on Mars only. I’m going to stop here and add more detail later as to how I would build a city on Mars, President of the United States.
Larry,
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The Accelerated Mars Commonwealth Version
(timeframe: 100 Years)
Having established the Commonwealth of Mars (A member nation of the Commonwealth) as the recognized Government over the territory of Mars and the Mineral rights of Mars, and having gained the right to declare contracts against the mineral wealth of Mars in the area of fifty million billion a year, Begin by issuing contracts of economic and technological merit.
> Fifty contracts for the design, construction, maintenance, and operation of a Space plane designed to transport one hundred people from an airstrip take off, travel into space, transfer passengers to a space station and return to earth at an airport landing – with a monthly turn around (Something along the lines of a huge flying wing, possibly). They must provide a free aerospace transport service for a period of thirty years (over which the transport is to be maintained). A one million billion dollar Contract open to any nation or group of nations that desires to partake of the technological feat. The contract will be issued 2010AD and the craft must be finished by 2030AD.
> A set of three contracts for the design, construction and maintenance of space stations (possibly a very big space wheel-toroidal that must be able to sustain a permanent population of ten thousand people in some form of artificial gravity). One station will become the New United Nations Government facility. A Permanent Seat of governance for the UN. The second will be for non Commonwealth support colonists and companies whose personnel are going to focus on IT/Engineering in a low gravity environment (Open to all nations- This is effectively an independent city state that may be expanded beyond this population by the finances of those who are interested in relocating off world). The Third is for the use of the Commonwealth of Mars as a training facility and colonist transport for its Mars Colonist Program. These stations will be located between the earth and the Moon in a stable orbit and must be maintained fully functional for one hundred years and capable of propelling themselves through space as a space craft. Each contract is for five hundred million billion dollars (paid out at the rate of ten million billion a year) and they must be completed by 2030AD.
> Contracts for the design, construction and Heavy Lift forward deployment of ten thousand habitat modules to the planet Mars. These are exclusively for use by the Commonwealth of Mars Survey teams. Contract Value of around one hundred million billion dollars (paid out annually at the rate of ten million billion). These contracts will be open to corporations only. Completion date: They must be on Mars before 2030AD.
> Begin a contract for the training and education of Mars Commonwealth Colonists in the skills needed as astronauts and colonists. Deploy ten thousand to the Commonwealth of Mars Space station for their first colonization wave (2030AD, 10,000-Survey specialists).
> A Contract for the providing of Food and Equipment as required for the construction of a series of self sustained mining colonies on Mars (Basically the ten best sites, which will now be brought up to self sustained city states of the Commonwealth nation of Mars).
Contracts will be as needed and determined at the time. Populations of these city-states will be restricted to a million each. After this, the colonization of Mars will be closed. Self Sufficient Colonization Finalized by 2100AD.
outcomes:
*Commonwealth of Mars/ Population: 10,000,000
-Closed to fu
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The President of the United States,
After the United States regains it control over it own money supply so we don't have to cow to private bankers and we have regained our sovereignty again. After making my declaration of what the United States intends to do in space. I would open the project up to the rest of the individual government of world and ask them if they want to participate. They can either choose to participate or they could choose not to participate, but the United States intends to with or without you participation.
I have already gone over home rule and the right to generate credit and policy to industrialize Mars in the last post.
We looked into viability of large wheeled space station that would support hundreds or thousand of people, we choose not to. Because, we decided that we would have to send up too many resources from the earth to be able to put together a viable space station that could support thousands of people. We figured that we would have to send up maybe several thousand heavy booster costing maybe a billions dollars a piece.
We looked at our next generation shuttle and decided on a shuttle that could carry 20 to 30 people. The reason we choose that number was that we would have to build a two piece shuttle, because we don't currently have the technology in hand to build a one piece shuttle. If we try to put too many people into space at one time, the carrier jet would have to be the size of 747 or bigger. Beside we don't currently need that capacity and it would be over kill. However we did decide that we wanted to build three or four generation of shuttle as we develop new technology comes on line. As we begin to get more people into space and we develop the technology to build one piece shuttle, then we would increase the number of people that we could take into space.
Now that we got the Central Bank and the right to issue money back in the hands of the government or have the Treasury Department. We theoretically could generate all the credit that our little hearts could desire or virtually an unlimited supply of money credit. But, in practice there is a load limit that we could generate, before we would cause inflation and if you go point by a whole bunch, you would cause hyper inflation. At which point your currency would hyper inflate out of existence. We also determined that we also have generate a certain mount of credit or money too, because our economy would collapse if we don't a certain amount of credit. currently Alan Greenspan is generating between three to seven trillion dollars to keep the US Economy a load. But, we figure that boundaries of what we have generate and the point we should not go over by generating too much is somewhere in the neighborhood 2,500 to 7,000 thousand dollars per person. So we have to function within those boundaries.
We have also concluded that we could not do a Mars direct to build our city on Mars either, because it would take too many resource then we could possibly spare. Beside that we have a launch window to of twenty six month that we have to deal with along with various space sicknesses to deal with. We have about four and a half launch window in a ten year period or nine in about twenty years.
Although the capsule idea for going back to the moon will get a back and it may have more advance technology than Apollo, it basically a step backward from the current shuttle. I don't like the current generation shuttle and I think it a poorly designed space craft, but we need to be moving in that direction if we intend to build our city on Mars. So for the time being I would hang on to it until we get a new shuttle to replace it. Whether or not we go with a limited capsule idea or not, I would tend not to go with that idea, however I might consent to sending up 5 to 8 such craft. My first choice would be to go fission powered back to the Moon rather that going with chemical rocket. I would also want to develop lunar shuttle rather that going with the old lunar limbs.
Although we could not build big such space station in space because of the financial problems it would cause and resource issue also. We would still build a space station in space of twenty or thirty to maybe hundred people, but it would very limited and Spartan in nature. We may send up one or two Biggelo type habitats to ISS that can support 12 people per habitats. We may send up a few more Biggelo type habitats higher up in the orbit, but at some point we would have to stop because of the resource issue.
Up to this point I have been going over what we can do and what can't do and the limitation of current technologies and at the present time we can't do what we set as our goal that we wanted to achieve in forty to fifty years. Pure logic and reason would dictate, that we can't build a city of 100,000 people on Mars in forty or fifty years. Even in a crash program, it would not even appear to be achievable.
At this point, we are going to have to come up with a plan for Mars or run the risk of being the laughing stock of the world or generally back away from the idea of building a city on Mars.
So here the plan we came up with.
We are going to do a crash program of going back to the Moon with shuttle on both ends fission rockets between those shuttles. We want to send thousand or more people to the Moon and we want to establish an industrial park or skunk works on the moon. We want to put together a mining colony on the Moon and establish farming operation also. We would also like to build a ship yard on the Moon too. We would like to do this in twenty to twenty five years. This would be cheaper than trying to build a thousand to ten thousand man space station in orbit. We could also use resources on the Moon instead of having to send everything up from the Earth. But, we would still have to send a lot of stuff into space, until we get enough of an infrastructure on the Moon that we could process resources on the Moon. Also the Moon would be a good place to test new technologies being developed, bring resource from an asteroid that may pass by the Earth too. When we do get ready for Mars, most of the infrastructure for getting into orbit and on the Moon will already be in place and we could just upgrade it and/or use it for our Mars project.
While be are building up our infrastructure on the Moon and in space along with new generation shuttle and such. Which is the type of infrastructure we have to put together to have serious effort to get 100,000 off the planet Earth and in orbit and some even to the Moon. But, even assuming that we could get 100,000 in orbit, we still could not get them to Mars or into an orbit around Mars. Fission rocket, just won't make the trip for that many people going to Mars. We would have to have too many fission rockets for it to be practical to send 100,000 people to Mars. That Means were going to have to develop fusion rockets or other wise we will run out of time to get to Mars with 100,000 people. Then there is also the Mars Shuttle that we have to develop and build too.
We still are going to have to put down our city on Mars and we already know that it can't come from the Earth. So we will see if we can build our Mars City on the Moon and then ship it to Mars. Now this will be in the next 20 to 25 Years. Now on the return trip, they may be able to catch small asteroid or chip off a small piece of asteroids and bring them to the Moon for processing. So we would have to have all kinds of technologies being developed at the same time so we could hit our target. We also know that we have to have a functioning economy to base our efforts on, it not enough to just be able to generate credit.
Larry,
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Part 1: getting people into space
> Fifty contracts for the design, construction, maintenance, and operation of a Space plane designed to transport one hundred people from an airstrip take off, travel into space, transfer passengers to a space station and return to earth at an airport landing – with a monthly turn around (Something along the lines of a huge flying wing, possibly). They must provide a free aerospace transport service for a period of thirty years (over which the transport is to be maintained). A one million billion dollar Contract open to any nation or group of nations that desires to partake of the technological feat. The contract will be issued 2010AD and the craft must be finished by 2030AD.
A pre-established Mars economy, capable of issuing contracts of such wealth for the movement of people alone creates a unique situation. A free passenger service to a space station will destroy the economy of industries keyed to providing passenger transport into space for money. If you can send a hundred people into space free of charge on a Commonwealth of Mars Space Plane, You are not going to be interested in taking a ride on Space Travel incorporated for two million.
But providing a free passenger service to get people into space will be better for the private sector investment in the long run because all their money is going to be made on the Space station itself. A Commonwealth of Mars would eat the expense for it's own good. The cost of the service is little compared to the benifits of moving vast numbers of people into space.
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President of the United States,
We broke it down to two periods of 20 to 25 years, because it generally take about twenty years or so to do a major infrastructure project like a nationwide rail road system or highway system. We also know that we can't build that city under the present banking system or credit/deficit system or with the current physical structure or current space infrastructure at NASA and including the private sector too or even including the rest of the world governments and there space agencies. We also have to develop new technologies and ways of doing things as never for, for the second 20 to 25 years for us to complete our plan.
We are reasonably certain that we could do the first part of our plan with current technologies or things that we could bring on line in say 5 years or so. So we put the hammer down on what we want to do for the first 20 to 25 years with more or less present technology. So we invest in the following items:
1. Scram Jet/rocket shuttle.
2. Nuclear fission rocket.
3. First Generation Moon shuttles.
4. Upgrade the ISS space station and other temporary space station up in a higher orbit.
5. We may throw a few Biggelow habitats for 12 to 14 people on the Moon in one or more places. Temporary shelter until we can build the main shelter.
6. Buy special equipment for the moon for mining equipment, diggers, robotics, Pressurized rovers, over head cranes, elect.
7. We need to setup infrastructure to power our small base or town. So we put together nuclear power plants, water plants, sewers, air supply, and simple transportation system.
8. Manufacturing, we can run the foundries around those Nuclear power plants for the heat and power needed to setup a plasma steal refinery. Then of course the machines and tooling to make useable parts instead of importing those parts from earth at great expense and waist of resources.
9. Hydroponics Gardens to provide the food for the colonist or use lunar dirt that been transformed from lunar dust into dirt. It will be a tedious process.
10. Other extras like landing pad or run ways on the Moon, rail gun type configuration to throw things off the Moon and things like that.
The second twenty to twenty five year is more in question as to whether can do it. Beside rellying on the last 20 years or so,it is also more aggressive than the first 20 to 25 years and is still in question as to whether we could do it or not. At least we would have the momentum and the infrastructure in place to make a serious effort to complete our stated goal for the second period. At this point of nearing the end of the first 20 to 25, we will find out if we had developed the technology that we need to complete this mission. Technologies that we would have to develop are:
1. Fusion power, fusion engines and the ability to fly between Mars and Earth in a one weeks time frame.
2. Laser Welders and other new ways of doing things. Regular gas welders and electric welders are useless to us in space. So we need a new way to weld something so we don’t have to jerry rig something.
3. New types of Machine Process for manufacturing things that aren't labor intensive.
4. We are assuming that the first period will achieved there goal and built there infrastructure, which is now ready for build the Mars city. With proven technology that already tested on the Moon
5. Any other technologies that has to be invented or developed during the first period to make possible Mars colony possible or make it more likely to easier to do.
So we are going to be giving Government grants to Private business to develop most of the equipment or the new technologies that we have to have to complete our stated goal of building a city on Mars.
At this point, we would hand our stated goals and the commitment to finance it over to NASA to attempt to come up with a plan to make it happen. NASA would consult private industries and private individuals to try and come up with a workable plan. So NASA goes over everything that we would have to have to make it happen and then see if we can do it.
So I the President of the United States has authorized NASA to open it up to every one on this forum to help us come up with a plan and what we would have to make to cause this happen. Because, once we know what we want to accomplish, then we can figure out problem of what we need to do to accomplish our goals. So we need to know thes things.
1. We need to know what types of space, shuttles, mining, life supports, farming that we have to have and also how many of each type?
2. We need to know what kind of infrastructure we have to build to support something that big?
3. What kind of engineering problem are we going to run into along with current limitations and If you can offer any solution so suggestion or new technologies that can solve those problem?
4. We need some one who can think out side the box to solve problems that we are going to run into. Because we intend to do things that have never been done before and old ways of doing something aren't going to work. Even if we do all that, it is still questionable even then, if we can do it.
We already know how we intend to pay for it, but now we need the battle plan and technical expertise to do it.
Suggestion will now be entertained by the NASA and the President of the United States.
Larry,
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The Commonwealth of Mars offers the failing US economy (amongst many other nations of earth) access to contracts worth fifty million billion dollars a year to open up space travel as a free ride into Earth obit, and build our space stations, and our Colonies. And then we will invite your people to change citizenship and emmigrate to Mars that they may create a Civilization founded in ethics and the rule of law.
We put ten million on Mars by 2100AD in a Self sustaining economy where the currency is food, water, and shelter and the national debt is paid in mineral wealth.
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The Commonwealth of Mars offers the failing US economy (amongst many other nations of earth) access to contracts worth fifty million billion dollars a year to open up space travel as a free ride into Earth obit, and build our space stations, and our Colonies. And then we will invite your people to change citizenship and emmigrate to Mars that they may create a Civilization founded in ethics and the rule of law.
We put ten million on Mars by 2100AD in a Self sustaining economy where the currency is food, water, and shelter and the national debt is paid in mineral wealth.
This whole post is completely ridiculous. The United States problem as to production and down turn in the US Economy is caused by policies that are being put out in Washington D.C. and not by foreign competition. The only way these problems are going to be solved, is by replacing those clowns in Washington D.C. with new people that have sound economic policies. Somebody from outside the United States is not going to save the United States because they have these contracts to buy stuff from American factories. Then to add insult to injury, that foreign source doesn't even exit. You live in some fantasy land or something.
Larry,
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The United States problem as to production and down turn in the US Economy is caused by policies that are being put out in Washington D.C. and not by foreign competition. The only way these problems are going to be solved, is by replacing those clowns in Washington D.C. with new people that have sound economic policies.
http://www.google.com/search?q=greenspa … &sa=N]What happened ?
Per http://www.google.com/search?q=Ravi+Bat … utf-8]Ravi Batra, Greenspan (since 1981) and others have allowed easy flow of money into US to finance deficits. Manufacturing has left and real wages for ordinary US citizens gone down.
US does well in intellectual property, the average US person looses out when manufacturing leaves, manufacturers and workers outside US gain. Free flow of money, increased efficiency for the US Financial Empire. Good for the world.
After Greenspan retires, will US become protectionist ?
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The United States problem as to production and down turn in the US Economy is caused by policies that are being put out in Washington D.C. and not by foreign competition. The only way these problems are going to be solved, is by replacing those clowns in Washington D.C. with new people that have sound economic policies.
http://www.google.com/search?q=greenspa … &sa=N]What happened ?
Per http://www.google.com/search?q=Ravi+Bat … utf-8]Ravi Batra, Greenspan (since 1981) and others have allowed easy flow of money into US to finance deficits. Manufacturing has left and real wages for ordinary US citizens gone down.
US does well in intellectual property, the average US person looses out when manufacturing leaves, manufacturers and workers outside US gain. Free flow of money, increased efficiency for the US Financial Empire. Good for the world.
After Greenspan retires, will US become protectionist ?
With agreements like NAFTA which open the US Manufactures to foreign competition using slave labor while penalizing domestic manufactures, it the primary cause of economic collapse inside the United States. The second part of this problem is the control over our money supply by private bankers that have no loyalty to the United States or the welfare of the American at large.
You correct the first problem by getting out of NAFTA and setting up limited trade barriers to protect you home industries from both dumping and/or products being soled too cheaply. Because, it more important to have an economy that function, than being able to buy things at the cheapest price out there. We still want to trade with other countries, because they have thing that we need and we have stuff they need, but we don't want an unregulated trading system that will destroys both of our economies while we are trading them. We want a fair equitable trading system for all the countries that are on the world market trading to get what they need to run there own economy at a fair price and necessarily at the cheapest price. If the trading system that we currently have doesn't do that, then it needs to be overhauled or replaced with a new system that will do that.
The United States has to control it own credit, because who ever controls the right to generate credit has the right to make to rules over how that credit is used. It called right of issue. The one having the power to generate credit inside the United States, has to generate hundreds of billions to maybe a trillion of dollars worth of credit per year to keep the US Economy from imploding. The US Constitution give that right to coin, set tariff, set the value of money and generate credit to the US Congress.
Then we need to do an FDR New Deal of building infrastructures of massive projects to complete that deal. So home industries can sell there products to a buyer or bid on contracts, in this case it will be the US Government.
Larry,
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US could draw borders of its empire around North and South America, perhaps Australia might want to join; Making it a low population density, self sufficient Utopia. US military could self blockade, prevent all from entering, jam all external communication. Terrorist threat would cease to exist. All would live happily.
Could a US voting worker ask for more ?
(The present empire is too costly, cutting back is necessary to keep control)
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Isolationism never works. Someone always gets ahead of you while you're busy pretending they don't exist and then comes in to take advantage of you. Consider the Chinese who could have started exploration and colonization centuries before the Europeans did but decided that the rest of the world wasn't worth exploring. Then the Europeans became the dominant force in the world. Besides, an isolationist North and South American entity would not be likely to go into space.
Far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the Western Spiral arm of the Galaxy lies a small unregarded yellow sun.
-The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
by Douglas Adams
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US could draw borders of its empire around North and South America, perhaps Australia might want to join; Making it a low population density, self sufficient Utopia. US military could self blockade, prevent all from entering, jam all external communication. Terrorist threat would cease to exist. All would live happily.
Could a US voting worker ask for more ?
(The present empire is too costly, cutting back is necessary to keep control)
I’m not interested in the United States being the Tyrant Earth that reserve the right to attack other nation and bomb other countries and killing million of people, just because we feel like killing millions of people and to serve some evil interest. I'm not interested in the United States being an Empire. Empires are disgusting and are an immoral form of government that destroys the quality of life on Planet Earth and Empires are responsible for murdering millions of people as a population control measure. If the United States will destroy the entire planet if we continue with George Bushes plans of conquest of the rest of the world. I'm saying that George Bush will transform the entire planet into hell hole where over five billion people will die and the population of this planet will drop to one billion people or less on the entire planet. If we don’t stop, the entire planet will look like the Sehara desert and mass starvation that going on in Africa. There will be no Utopia and there will not be a happy ending if George Bush continues his policies. Empires are a disgusting piece of thilth that only serve to oppress people of other nation and they even oppress there own people in there own nation. When the world fall into a new dark age, it will delay any colonization of space for centuries also. I will have nothing to do with the United States Being an Empire.
I want the United States to go back to being a Constitutional Republic based on the General Welfare and being a sovereign nation state that recognizes other nations as sovereign state too of a co-equal nations to the United States. Where the United States deals with other nation as equals and looking for what best for all nation that choose to participate in this new treaty where ever nation can exist in peace. That what I want and nothing less will be acceptable to me.
Larry,
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I want the United States to go back to being a Constitutional Republic based on the General Welfare and being a sovereign nation state that recognizes other nations as sovereign state too of a co-equal nations to the United States. Where the United States deals with other nation as equals and looking for what best for all nation that choose to participate in this new treaty where ever nation can exist in peace. That what I want and nothing less will be acceptable to me.
Sorry Martian Republic,
Its a nice ethical dream but there are too many vested interests in gunship economics. Kinda went bad back when the arms industry offed JFK and arranged the vietnam war.
US could draw borders of its empire around North and South America, perhaps Australia might want to join; Making it a low population density, self sufficient Utopia. US military could self blockade, prevent all from entering, jam all external communication. Terrorist threat would cease to exist. All would live happily.
Australia is too busy building a world spanning Commonwealth under the noses of everyone to go off and join in Isolationism.
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