Rotating Alternative Energy Devices, floating, rails, or hovercraft.

Void · 2024-02-20 11:08:02

I request permission to have this topic.

I have pondered these matters for a long time and think I have things to add. I will add some and retain some.

I will start with this: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 66#p219566
Quote:

So, someone finally figured out that you can float an object on water and use that as a bearing to do sun following solar collections.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets … 5d16&ei=12
Quote:
Company designs genius ‘island’ of floating solar panels that maximize energy by following the sun — here’s how it works
Story by Wes Stenzel • 5d
Now add wind and wave power. With the wave power protect the devices perimeters with wave power collection devices.
Grow Seaweed, collect nutrients from the ocean depths with the seaweed method.
Populate the device.
Make hydrocarbon fuels by baking organic materials, pyrolysis. Use Char to entomb Carbon from the atmosphere.
Tell Greta that she does not need to cry.

Done

Reservoirs that don't freeze over can host these.

Large ice flows that get pushed by currents of water or wind, could be a big problem.

There are ways to work with lakes that do freeze over.
Bubbler systems that melt ice will allow it.

The bottom of lakes say in the Midwest as an example is a few degrees above freezing even in the winter, if the lake/pond is over 6 feet deep. (Typically).

People can have the flavors they want of this. I favor static vertical one-sided solar panels, that will be on a floating rotator. This is probably sun following enough to be worth it in some cases.

A small instance could be on a farm pond, which I think environmentalists will have a harder time interfering with.

We will need to be aware of the difference between true environmentalists, and those who are anti-human, and anti-industrial. The later are subject to influences from foreign powers and cultures who very likely want to diminish our success. Or in some cases they are simply mentally ill by my evaluations.

While keeping a cut circle in lake ice will expend energy, and to a degree cause the lake to lose heat to the air, heat can be added by the method as well, or some other method. It probably does not matter.

In the case of a desert installation, a vapor shield might be put under the solar panels. But the solar panels will shade the water below anyway, so maybe not needed.

You could have this over a solar thermal pond where heat is stored in gradients of brines. This would not heat the water below with sunlight so much but you would actively heat the water perhaps with heat pumps run when convenient. Of course you could use resistance heating.

But in a desert of you suck the heat out of the top layer of brine, less evaporation will happen. Then you can push the heat into the bottom of the pond, for thermal storage. We can look at this again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_pond

In reality if you can get the temperature of the brine on top of the pond cold enough you may suck moisture out of the air into it if the humidity is high enough. The Great Salt Lake gets a lot of moisture into it that way. If you want to increase thermal storage in the bottom waters you might consider canisters of Parafin Wax to do a phase change. I think that the bottom waters could be pushed up high enough for that to work.

I believe that the solar pond goes up to 90 degC, and Paraffin Wax? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraffin_wax
Quote:

Properties
Paraffin wax is mostly found as a white, odorless, tasteless, waxy solid, with a typical melting point between about 46 and 68 °C (115 and 154 °F),[7] and a density of around 900 kg/m3.[8] It is insoluble in water, but soluble in ether, benzene, and certain esters. Paraffin is unaffected by most common chemical reagents but burns readily.[9] Its heat of combustion is 42 MJ/kg.[10]

So, that may be workable, and getting fossil fuel companies to convert to making Paraffin Wax, may smooth the way towards a different energy procurement method(s).

It is obvious that you could use rails on Mars, although a very cold brine lake might be workable.

But you might also use hovercraft methods, perhaps bumping the structure to a different aim direction every few minutes.

That's enough for now.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-02-20 11:32:14)

tahanson43206 · 2024-02-20 11:11:54

This post is reserved for an index to posts NewMars members may contribute over time.

(th)

Void · 2024-02-20 11:37:27

Thanks (th).

I need to add that a solar heat pump pond with floating rotor, could facilitate the distillation of water which could be of value. So, it may be able to suck water from the air into a pond, it may also then reject the brine and extract water as well into a more usable form.

Done

Void · 2024-02-20 14:11:54

So, the method can go from deserts to oceans, with modifications to methods and results.

While it might be possible to pull moisture out of the air, imagine if you could create a null situation, where on average water enters the water leaves the water over time and gain and loss = zero.

We, irrigate crops with river and aquifer water, thinking of it as a one time use. In some cases some of it will return as dew, rain, or snow. But more or less call it a consumption of water.

If you have a pond in the desert and make the loss/gain of moisture rate null, then the water stays there until the machine is broken, unless it would sink into the ground.

A floating solar rotor could have a vapor barrier below the panels, if you would want, and this might modify the gain/loss rate, for a price.

If the rotor has parallel vertical solar panels, at times the pointing can be canted away from maximum absorption of sunlight into the solar panels. This would regulate the amount of sunlight that could go into the pond. You might grow things in the pond.

So, I have shown a possible baffle between hot and cold water as a dotted line. I have shown a terrarium of sorts which could be a thing to do. You could grow algae in the surface cold water, and maybe even some plants, depending on the temperature, saltiness, and other factors for the surface water.

The chilled water on top would prevent the terrariums from overheating.

Heat pumps in this system could move heat from the upper water to the lower water. It also could pull heat off of the solar panels in warmth and sunlight. They could also be used to expel heat from the solar panels at night, or if you twist the rotor 90 degrees so that sunlight does not impinge on the solar panels. This rejection of heat would be dry, not wet, but I guess in the correct situation you would use evaporative cooling.

The solar panels being one faced, the back face could have heat exchanger methods on it, either circulated fluids and dry cooling or evaporative cooling in places where water if plentiful.

Cooling the solar panels can increase the efficiency and lifetime of the solar panels.

Done

So, the point is a river like the Colorado river could fill an infinite number of these, provided you could maintain a null loss of water vapor.

But in some cases, the device may suck water out of the air.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-02-20 14:39:36)

Calliban · 2024-02-20 14:41:36

Void, another interesting thing to toy with is a solar downdraft tower. Rather like a cooling tower in reverse. At the top of the tower, water is sprayed into the air. Evaporation causes cooling, which increases air density, causing the air to flow down the inside of the tower. At the bottom of the tower, you have a hole containing an air turbine. Cold dense air flows out through the hole, turning the turbine and generating power. This only works in deserts, where there is a high ambient air temperature and dry air. But the tower itself can be a static masonry structure that should last for centuries if properly constructed. The pumps and nozzles must be replace every few decades. But overall, this is a build once, use forever kind of device.

Void · 2024-02-20 14:46:53

There will be many places and situations. In some cases that might be the lower cost method for cooling method Calliban.

Another case can be on a sea. You could have such if you built is strong enough. You might have wave power on the perimeter. You might even have some kind of wind power.

One may make a solar pond that floats on the ocean with wave power on its perimeter, and you might float a rotor of solar panels inside of that.

Of course, all of this requires materials for structure at a reasonable price. It is possible that it would be imported from the solar system someday.

Moon metals, glasses?

Going back to the desert, if you pump ocean water into these things in the deserts, and have null water loss, then there would not be a salt buildup problem.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-02-20 14:52:01)

Calliban · 2024-02-20 15:07:01

Salt buildup would be a problem using ocean water, because salt would form micro particles in the air. These would be carried away by winds and could end up deposited on the land. If the land surrounding is low value desert, i.e Saharra, then salt buildup matters little. We could potentially desalinate water for this purpose or use other non-potable river water. As you say, it is situation specific. The wiki article suggests that salt water may be acceptable. Corrosion is a problem though.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_ … downdraft)

Costs could be reduced by taking advantage of mountains. No energy is free of course, because we have to build the machines that harvest it. Even a genuine perpetual motion machine would not be free energy.

If we are prepared to make long term investments in energy harvesting devices, the greatest energy return on investment can be gained by building for longevity. The longest lived human creations up to now (and probably in the future) have been static masonry structures. We still have windmill towers that are 300 years old. There are Persian ice houses that are even older than this. There is a lesson in this I think.

Last edited by Calliban (2024-02-20 15:19:59)

Void · 2024-02-20 15:42:02

I suppose you are correct for all the mentions of salt.

But most of what we call deserts does have some rains, so that would tend to dilute salt buildup.

The devices I am considering would have high salt gradients in them as a general factor, but I think it may be appropriate in some situations to have cold distilled water on top. For instance water at say 1 deg C being fresh, might be supported by warmer saltier water. I guess we could have to study that. Salt gradients and temperature can change the weight of water.

However, if you had a brinier surface water you might drop the temperature below the freezing point of water. Salty cold water could absorb moisture from cool night air.

If you could build a machine that can absorb water from the air, then really all you would be doing is importing the salt from the ocean.

The option to put a vapor barrier above the water and below the solar panels would exist as well, but you would then have to use a blower to push night air though the device under the vapor barrier and above the cold water.

There would be many situations and versions of the devices.

Done

Relative Humidity of Saharah at night: https://travelasker.com/does-the-sahara … at%20night. Quote:

Humidity levels in the Sahara desert vary widely depending on the location and time of day. However, statistical analysis has shown that the average RH levels range from 10% to 25% during the day and 25% to 40% at night.

I recall that RH% doubles for every 20 degF drop in temperature.

To convert, 20/9 = 2.2222
Then 2.2222 * 5 = 11.1111 degC

I think that is correct. So, if you have a night where RH% is 40%, and can drop the temperature by that amount you might get close to condensation, say about 80% RH. But the nights in the Sahara can also approach freezing. So, if the top water is fresh, it seems hard to get condensation. But if you could drop the value of the surface water down by double that amount, then you would be traveling towards 160% RH, which you cannot reach as you would have condensation.

So, it seems hard to do it in the Sahara at night using fresh surface water. But if the surface water were brine, you might get perhaps a 30 degF or 16.6666 degC drop. It is a big ask, I am not sure it can be done.

But in slightly more humid environments, forced condensation at night may be possible.

And semiarid areas will have some rain, so really you don't' so much have to condense water as to reduce evaporation if you have storage methods such as the Colorado River.

Done

If you have brine gradients with differential temperature and also electric energy from something like solar, then you can distill water. Perhaps grey water can go back into the tank. Of course, that will have needs to be done correctly.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-02-20 16:00:38)

Void · 2024-02-22 08:44:44

While I have proposed salt gradient thermal storage ponds, this device might also be partnered with some forms of the devices of the topic here: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 43#p219643 Quote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwDly9pjSJg
Quote:
Why Solid Carbon Batteries Are Taking Over
Ziroth
On Mars and Earth, it may be good to have energy available to run processes at night, so this one looks like it would be able to provide that energy.
Done

Such a device might be hosted on a device like this:

The particular device is intended to condense water and collect rain, in a rather humid environment.

Being a platform for solar panels, and having a concave solid surface above 'B'.

Unfortunately, bird droppings will likely be included. The concave surface is intended to catch rain, but even more important to condense dew our of humid air. A heat pump method makes the water at 'B' quite cold. The heat could be dumped into the sea or lake. But I have allowed that the lower water 'C' could hold heat. Perhaps a salt water solar pond method. It is not mandated; I have simply allowed it.

Here is a top view:

So, then the thing can rotate in horizontal circular fashion to point the solar panels at the sun in the daytime or to let sunlight fall on the concave surface instead. But the concave surface is not intended to be a solar device. You may put potted plants on it with standoffs, and it can then still condense water from the air.

At night the presentation of the solar panels can be as to provide wind dry cooling as the solar panels are also heat exchangers, should it be desired to reject heat to the atmosphere.

The vertical solar panels will have solar surfaces on one side and a heat exchanger method on the other side.

On a small scale these want to be in sheltered waters. But I suppose the bigger you made it, the more rugged it would be with waves.

So, on a large scale you could also put wave energy collectors on it. And on a large scale you might even add windmills on it.

Sheltered places might be https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intracoastal_Waterway

It would also work well with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endorheic … tlands.%20

Image Quote, Endorheic basins:

We have the Great Salt Lake and the Salton Sea and some others in the USA

You could cause these bodies of water to expand perhaps, by covering them with such structures, but of course to do that you need way more in the way of construction materials than we can get on this Earth. But if the value of the devices is good enough, let's get stuff from the Moon and Asteroids, make shapes that can survive entry to the atmosphere, and splash them into an ocean. Ridiculous? Probably now it is. But then calculate the value of the machines you could make. Their output could be very long lasting.

And humans may come up with clever ways to transport such materials in the future.

For now, however the devices done as a pilot program do not have to be made of materials from outer space.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-02-22 09:36:26)

Calliban · 2024-02-22 10:01:06

Void, some interesting ideas. Something I have never understood about solar ponds is how the fresh water and brine layers avoid mixing. Initial seperation will occur because the brine is denser. But this results in a sharp ion concentration gradient between the brine and fresh water. One would expect there to be rapid diffusion of ions from the brine into the fresh water along the concentration gradient, until ion concentration is uniform throughout the liquid. This results in an increase in entropy and is therefore a favoured state. But this obviously does not occur quickly, as solar ponds are useful as water heaters. Any thoughts as to what is going on?

Calliban · 2024-02-22 10:10:40

On Mars, brine filled ponds may be useful for gathering solar heat, providing heat sources for heat pumps. Both layers of the pond will need to be salted, in order to depress freezing point. But the lower layer would be denser with a higher ion concentration. This concentration gradient could be maintained using ion exchange membranes. These would replenish the lightly salted upper layer and heavily salted lower layer. The brine pond would not need to be pressurised, as Mars atmospheric pressure is above boiling point at 0°C. But a glass cover would be needed to suppress evaporation and prevent dust contamination. I wonder if mixing between the two layers could be prevented using a thin polymer film of some kind?

The advantage of a pond over a flat plate heating panel is simplicity. You don't need engineered plates with internal plumbing and pipework. You just pump water out of the warm lower layer of the pond and straight into a heat exchanger. The downside is you need substantially more water. Which is more difficult to find on Mars than it is on Earth.

Last edited by Calliban (2024-02-22 10:13:46)

Void · 2024-02-22 10:33:54

I think you are on to something, keep in mind that the water near the ice which is relatively cold, could be perhaps 2x the saltiness of sea water. Deeper water which would be warm would be much saltier, perhaps 10x the saltiness of sea water.

As your top water may be as salty as 2x that of sea water, you may cool it well below the freezing point of fresh water. As you have pointed out, you still need to protect from evaporation.

https://endmemo.com/chem/vaporpressurewater.php
But sea water at about -2 degC, will have a vapor pressure of about 5.2256 mbar, which is close to Martian average surface pressure.

So, if you have a bubble to prohibit evaporation, it does not need to hold much pressure.

Sea Water at about -2 degC could likely support some forms of Algae/Cyanobacteria.

Mars does have more water to build with than easily produced standard construction materials. The atmosphere suggests that you can have a plastics industry to make bubbles with if you also have water.

While I might want to be able to have open water over such a reservoir, ice is also an option that reduces the vapor pressure even more. If it can be replenished from time to time it can be quite clear.

You may see how this can be so: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 14#p205814
https://www.yahoo.com/now/crystal-clear … 22735.html
Here is another: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ut … &FORM=VIRE
If that is the desire that could be done.

If you wanted to put a rotor into a dome, you may, and you might keep the water melted on the surface, or use bubblers to only melt a circle in the ice to allow the platform to rotate.

The value of the water deposits thought to be at the equator of Mars suggests that it may be worthwhile to dig them out.

The one in the Mariner Rift Valley appears to be the size of the Netherlands, and the other more deeply buried one is thought to have enough water to fill the Red Sea. https://www.space.com/mars-water-ice-eq … ears%20now.
Quote:

A European Space Agency (ESA) probe has found enough water to cover Mars in an ocean between 4.9 and 8.9 feet (1.5 and 2.7 meters) deep, buried in the form of dusty ice beneath the planet's equator.
The finding was made by ESA's Mars Express mission, a veteran spacecraft that has been engaged in science operations around Mars for 20 years now.

I think that a very advanced Mars society may be able to bubble over craters and fill them with water extracted from underground and make places to grow things, and also perhaps solar rotors that float on water, using the water as a bearing.

Isaac Arthur goes even further than I do in many ways. Here again may be the question of mining the Moon, and I say even bringing common construction materials from the Moon to the surface of Earth: https://www.reddit.com/r/IsaacArthur/co … _the_moon/

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-02-22 10:54:58)

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#1 2024-02-20 11:08:02

Rotating Alternative Energy Devices, floating, rails, or hovercraft.

#2 2024-02-20 11:11:54

Re: Rotating Alternative Energy Devices, floating, rails, or hovercraft.

#3 2024-02-20 11:37:27

Re: Rotating Alternative Energy Devices, floating, rails, or hovercraft.

#4 2024-02-20 14:11:54

Re: Rotating Alternative Energy Devices, floating, rails, or hovercraft.

#5 2024-02-20 14:41:36

Re: Rotating Alternative Energy Devices, floating, rails, or hovercraft.

#6 2024-02-20 14:46:53

Re: Rotating Alternative Energy Devices, floating, rails, or hovercraft.

#7 2024-02-20 15:07:01

Re: Rotating Alternative Energy Devices, floating, rails, or hovercraft.

#8 2024-02-20 15:42:02

Re: Rotating Alternative Energy Devices, floating, rails, or hovercraft.

#9 2024-02-22 08:44:44

Re: Rotating Alternative Energy Devices, floating, rails, or hovercraft.

#10 2024-02-22 10:01:06

Re: Rotating Alternative Energy Devices, floating, rails, or hovercraft.

#11 2024-02-22 10:10:40

Re: Rotating Alternative Energy Devices, floating, rails, or hovercraft.

#12 2024-02-22 10:33:54

Re: Rotating Alternative Energy Devices, floating, rails, or hovercraft.

Board footer