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#1601 2024-01-25 09:47:51

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,389

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Major Asteroids again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e … _asteroids

While many of this are thought to have lots of organics, Vesta and 16 Psyche may not.

Most people are excited by 16 Psyche, the Metal world, but Vesta may be somewhat useful.  Of course, Ceres and some others have lots of organics.

I may be more interested in Vesta than 16 Psyche.  Organics are thought to exist on Vesta, haven't been described for 16 Psyche yet.
file:///C:/Users/Owner/Downloads/2013-01-vesta-large-impacts-asteroids-carbonaceous.pdf
Quote:

Vesta: Large impacts of asteroids may have
transferred carbonaceous material to the
protoplanet and inner solar system
January 3 2013

https://www.mpg.de/6771105/carbon-vesta
Quote:

JANUARY 03, 2013
The protoplanet Vesta has been witness to an eventful past: images taken by the framing camera onboard NASA's space probe Dawn show two enormous craters in the southern hemisphere. The images were obtained during Dawn's year-long visit to Vesta that ended in September 2012. These huge impacts not only altered Vesta's shape, but also its surface composition. Scientists under the lead of the Max Planck Institute for Solar System Research in Katlenburg-Lindau in Germany have shown that impacting small asteroids delivered dark, carbonaceous material to the protoplanet. In the early days of our solar system, similar events may have provided the inner planets such as Earth with carbon, an essential building block for organic molecules.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4_Vesta
Quote:

Aphelion    2.57 AU (384 million km)
Perihelion    2.15 AU (322 million km)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceres_(dwarf_planet)
Quote:

Aphelion    2.98 AU (446 million km)
Perihelion    2.55 AU (381 million km)

So, like most people I have been more interested in Ceres as it is supposed to have lots of water.
But Vesta may have enough Carbon and Hydrogen in the deposited materials on its surface.

This article talks about how Vesta had water flowing on its surface a long time ago, and that a surprising amount of Hydrogen has been detected there: https://www.space.com/12097-vesta-aster … ystem.html
Quote:

NASA's Dawn spacecraft, which visited the asteroid in 2012, discovered that the rocky body had a surprising amount of hydrogen on its surface. It also found bright, reflective regions that may have been left over from its birth.

Quote:

Liquid water once flowed across the asteroid. Images captured by the Dawn spacecraft revealed curved gullies and fan-shaped deposits within eight different Vesta impact craters. All eight of the craters are thought to have formed within the last few hundred million years, fairly recent in the lifetime of the 4.5-billion-year-old asteroid.

So, I am interested in the minerals of Vesta.  It was particularly volcanic and some ores can be created with that.  Here is a article about Copper: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 … 113220.htm

So, Vesta may have sufficient organic chemistry for what humans may need, but also may have valuable ores.  Also, not all impacts of Vesta would have been very fast.  In fact I have read that some of the Carbonaceous materials may have impacted slow enough to not lose their volatile materials.

So, I am going to suppose that some iron/nickel impactors may have survived impact without complete vaporization.

The orbital inclination of Vesta is less than that of Ceres.  7.14079 degrees / 10.59 degrees.  So, maybe a bit more compatible with Earth.

So, Vesta will have better sunlight as being closer in towards the sun than Ceres.
It may have a better distribution of materials/ores.
Both worlds may be suitable for Space Elevators.
I suppose that mass drivers may work OK for both of them.

So, I am inclined to think that both of them may have brine down deep, and those may have Sodium in them.
Aluminum and other comestible metals may be available.
In some efforts to process Ores, the target metal may not be the only thing that could be recovered, perhaps combustible metals would be in the results as well as a byproduct.

And now I will risk making a fool of myself with Steam Powered Rockets.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_rocket
https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/ … pacecraft/

Interesting.  I have read that a water steam nuclear rocket would have approximately the performance of a chemical rocket.

But I don't want to use water steam, rather I want to use Oxygen Steam.

For this device or devices like it I have suggested heated foam metal as a fuel, or a wick method with entrained liquid metals as fuels: LjRE3wA.png

I want to avoid consuming Hydrogen so want to avoid using water.  But Oxygen is a very common substance in the inner asteroid belt as are metals.

Electric power can put heat into a metal foam or wick method, by the use of magnetic induction heating, eddy currents induced.  And the metals could be of a combustible type as well.

The power to induce the heat can be nuclear or solar at Vesta solar would not be that bad.

So, this would be an Oxygen steam resulting from stored heat in the metals, and also combustion.  If you oversupply the Oxygen, then not all of it is combusted but is a propulsion from steam.  Extremely corrosive, but if you line the bell of the engine with combustible materials, this might be handled well enough.  You just stop the burn before you start eating into the engine bell itself.

And the power of the engine may be sufficient to launch from Vesta, and I hope to be able to at least in part enter a path to one of the worlds that has an atmosphere.  The stimulation for this would include burning some Hydrogen or Hydrocarbon in Oxygen, where the proportion of Oxygen was very high, similar to how it is done in a raptor engine.  But I hope to keep the consumption of Hydrogen low, relative to the propulsion created.  Having some Hydrogen in the final exhaust gasses along with metal Oxides may provide a fairly good propulsion, I suspect.

A catapult method might also assist the launch.  Of course, a space elevator method or mass driver method might bypass the need to launch from Vesta at all, provided the device could be constructed in microgravity.

The primary target worlds could be Mars, Venus, and Titan.  For the Earth/Moon, I would consider a non-aerobraking method, where the device might do a gravity assist from Venus or perhaps even Mercury, and then do a Ballistic Capture to the Earth/Moon.

If Vesta were the main creation place for such machines to go to diverse locations, then it would not be impossible to import more Hydrogen bearing materials to Vesta from asteroids like Ceres.

This method might make orbital Venus quite a productive place, I feel.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-25 11:26:50)


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#1602 2024-01-25 11:54:09

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,389

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

In previous posts I have mentioned transformer method that could be implemented in flight.  This block diagram shows two objects being "On Top" of the thrust and aerobraking bell: LjRE3wA.png

But for aerobraking they could be removed to be inside of the bell.  (The green and the blue objects).

I have mentioned using the bell itself as a solar collector in flight by pointing it's opening towards the sun.

But a folded mirror could be loaded on top of the assembly for launch and then deployed in flight to then focus light on the bell in some way to capture solar energy.  Prior to aerobraking it would be folded and inserted into the interior of the bell.

Here is an actual example of possibility: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne … 180957894/  Quote:

Cool Finds

How a Russian Space Mirror Briefly Lit Up the Night
In 1993, the 65-foot-diameter satellite, called Znamya, briefly lit the Earth like a giant orbiting night light

Danny Lewis

January 21, 2016

Image Quote: isslight.jpg

Metal coated Mylar, I believe.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BoPET

So, the assembly could then transform into a solar orbiting solar power station and might use the energy to drive some sort of propulsion.
Various propulsions might be considered including perhaps the Neumann drive: https://neumannspace.com/

Upon arrival at a world like Venus the materials may be of some further use.  Possibly useful for Mars as well.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-25 12:11:50)


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#1603 2024-01-25 18:51:55

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,389

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I am not at this time ready for much to say here, but I am wondering about table salt.

Sodium and Chlorine.

Sodium of course is a combustible metal.  Chlorine is a nasty stuff, but in outer space, in the kind of propulsion I have been thinking of maybe it could be used instead of Oxygen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorine
Unless I am missing something it can be stored as a liquid at reasonable temperatures in space.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium
May be a suitable metal fuel, in the vacuum of space.

Of course, both of these chemicals are lots of trouble on the surface of the Earth.  But my plans would be in a space vacuum.

Maybe someone will straiten me out on this or not.

We can get table salt on Earth and Mars, other places as well, perhaps.

Am I right in thinking that Chlorine is more reactive than Oxygen?

Table Salt would be easy to bring to orbit from a worlds surface with a rocket.  No refrigeration or pressurization needed; I think.

Any notions out there?

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-25 19:00:34)


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#1604 2024-01-25 20:56:51

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,124

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

For Void re Interesting Question in Post #1603

No human is going to attempt to answer your question.

However, BARD was willing to take it on, and I have prepared a file showing our discussion of your question.

I take NO responsibility for anything BARD said ....

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wXl … sp=sharing

(th)

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#1605 2024-01-26 02:54:16

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,389

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Well, you are right, I don't like it.

It practically said I was a stupid kid for asking the question.

It fails in several ways.  When it talks about separating Sodium and Chlorine out of salt, it assumes that the intention is to have that process on the ship that would burn the materials for thrust.

I have no intention to flow Sodium through pipes.  Instead, I have been supposing that there would be a hybrid method where the sodium was a stationary solid or entrained liquid droplets in a wick material.  No pipes or pumps for that.

I was aware that Chlorine is corrosive.  So is Oxygen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxidizing_agent
Quote:

Common oxidizing agents

Fluorine (F2), chlorine (Cl2), and other halogens

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorine
Quote:

It is an extremely reactive element and a strong oxidising agent: among the elements, it has the highest electron affinity and the third-highest electronegativity on the revised Pauling scale, behind only oxygen and fluorine.

OK, that is good to know.  It is less reactive than Oxygen and Fluorine.

But is liquid at a higher temperature than Oxygen.  I am willing to accept that tanks for it and piping may be some level of problems.
Storing it: https://diehardbackyard.com/how-to-prop … -chlorine/
Quote:

Other materials used to store liquid chlorine are:

Steel
Titanium
Polyethylene
Polyvinylidene fluoride
Aluminum
Silicone

So, not impossible.

I am quite aware that you would never want to build such a machine to use on or very near the Earth.  The results could be explosions, and poisons/toxins/pollution.  You most certainly would not want to have hot Sodium exposed to things like Oxygen or Water.

Some results from Bard are idiotic:

Operational and Practical concerns:
Handling difficulties: Salt melts at a high temperature (801°C), making it challenging to store and handle in a liquid form for rocket engines. Additionally, its solid form wouldn't provide continuous flow, further hindering engine operation.
Environmental impact: Large-scale use of salt for propellant could impact terrestrial and aquatic ecosystems, especially near launch sites. The potential contamination and salinity increase require careful consideration.
Availability limitations: While salt is abundant on Earth, retrieving and transporting it from other celestial bodies for space travel would be extremely expensive and energy-intensive.

I am not melting salt and expelling it from a rocket engine.
I am very aware of the environmental dangers of Sodium and Chlorine.  It seems to think I am going  to pollute the environment with salinity increases.

Going further in the quote specifically:

Availability limitations: While salt is abundant on Earth, retrieving and transporting it from other celestial bodies for space travel would be extremely expensive and energy-intensive.

Sodium Chloride has been identified on Mars, and of course it is on Earth.  Mercury seems to have very large salt deposits, and salt is identified on Ceres and Europa.  Granted those may not be Sodium Chloride.

But salt brought up from Earth or Mars to orbit is a very safe substance to transport unlike Hydrogen, Methane, and some others.

Lifting Salt from a planet to orbit would be less energy intensive than lifting liquid propellants to orbit. You would not have the weight burden of cryogenic equipment's dry mass.  Salt could be stored without refrigeration to a very low temperature.

Once in orbit, the salt could be separated using solar energy.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am going thank you for trying (th).  But asking "Salt as Rocket Propellant: Drawbacks and Potential", seems like a bad start in the first place.

The answer you got was like a binary thinker.  In binary thinking you have a tribal sort of a game and try to decide which tribe will get killed and eaten.  Rather low brain.  There was some useful information included, but the method of answer was insulting from the start, like the worst types of instructors in schools.

This sort of a start to a reply is extremely wrong and pompous:

Salt as rocket propellant - Occasionally bright young people ask questions that we know ahead of time are terrible questions, because they will result in discouraging answers.  A wise human might hesitate to answer such a question, because no good can come of it.  However, if we ask BARD, then BARD can deliver the bad news. We have such a question at hand.  A bright young person has asked about using Sodium and Chlorine as rocket propellant. Salt (Sodium

It relies on its assumptions on the method of rocket that may be considered.  It stifles innovation.  Any instructor using such language should be fired from their position immediately.

But I accept that you were presenting materials, apparently from a non-human source, and I see that you do not have blame for the
answer itself (th).

Thank You for trying.

In a binary test, one answer is considered better than the other, so the loser is thrown out.

Using Sodium and Chlorine may or may not be a good option somewhere sometime, but it is an option..

Chlorine has the characteristic of being storable for a number of years at a moderately cold temperature.  But it would probably be a real mess to try to handle in a turbopump.

Thanks again (th).  It can be set aside as a potential option, but indeed other options may be easier, with similar or better results.

For instance, hot Aluminum in a vacuum would not have a combustion inhibiting Oxide layer in the vacuum of space so a foam of it might work well as a fuel, and Oxygen is very available all over the solar system and can be breathed as well in a sticky situation.

So perhaps Aluminum Oxide might be a better start than salt.

This consideration is given because I want propellant from Stony or metal asteroids.

But of course, a Neumann Drive can also use Aluminum as propellant.  But not Oxygen, and it does need an on board electrical power supply.  Chemical combustion has both mass and energy included.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-26 03:54:59)


Done.

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#1606 2024-01-26 04:44:40

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,568

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Ignoring for the time being the materials problems with a sodium chloride rocket, I would point out that the sodium chloride exhaust has a high molar mass of 58.4.  That is 14.4 units heavier than CO2, which would give the rocket a rather poor specific impulse.  There was some work early in the space race that examined using hydrogen and flourine as a bipropellant mix.  From memory, specific impulse exceeded 500s, making this a very high performance bipropellant.  But the toxicity of flourine and the hydrogen flouride combustion product was so extreme that no one even tried to build this as a prototype.


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#1607 2024-01-26 05:01:58

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,389

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Fair enough.

But in my scheme, an Oxidizer side turbo pump would burn a bit of Hydrogen or a Hydrocarbon, in the Oxygen to render a hot stream.  Doing that with Chlorine, is perhaps not having a good result.

But anyway, returning to Oxygen, the machine would have an Oxidizer turbo pump like a raptor engine, and the resulting heated Oxidizer would be passed into a nozzle lined with a preheated combustible metal foam.  Or liquid metals in a wick.  The small amount of Hydrogen and Hydrocarbons in the mix may change the expansion rate.

The idea of salt was just a passing idea.  The idea of preheated combustible metals and a hot Oxidizer came from a notion that there could be places where you do not want to use very much Hydrogen or Hydrocarbons, just a little of it.

An Alice rocket is something like that, except you have Aluminum powder mixed in ice.  The device I want would be preheated instead, and the Aluminum would not have an Oxidizing coating on it as it would have been made and kept in a vacuum in space.  So, the Aluminum would be very combustible if it is preheated.  The energy of the system would not only be chemical but also heated metal as well.

The performance may very well be poor, but if you were working with a stony asteroid or moon, or a metal asteroid, it may be a reasonable choice, particularly if the gravity well of the object is small.

For instance, asteroid Eros: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/433_Eros
Quote:

Data from the Near Earth Asteroid Rendezvous spacecraft collected on Eros in December 1998 suggests that it could contain 20 billion tonnes of aluminum and similar amounts of metals that are rare on Earth, such as gold and platinum.[24]

Here was a Japan sample return from another asteroid: https://www.space.com/8592-japanese-ast … earth.html
This asteroid has a small amount of water: https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/11 … 20asteroid.
Quote:

Based on the typical depth of the material that was transformed by the solar wind, the researchers could calculate the amount of water in particles of different sizes. And while there's very little here individually, Itokawa has a lot of small, dust-like particles, which have a high surface area relative to their volume. So it all adds up to an estimated 20 liters of water in every cubic meter of the powdery regolith on the asteroid.

This high fraction is possible because all of the dust on Itokawa has circulated into and out of space over the course of the rubble pile's collision-filled past. So even if something is now buried in the interior, it almost certainly was exposed to the solar wind in the past.

And there is Vesta which is a volcanic world that may have ore deposits, but just a bit of Carbonaceous materials strewn on its surface.
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature11561
Quote:

We argue that the dark material is mainly from infall of hydrated carbonaceous material (like that found in a major class of meteorites and some comet surfaces3,4,5), whereas the bright material is the uncontaminated indigenous Vesta basaltic soil. Dark material from low-albedo impactors is diffused over time through the Vestan regolith by impact mixing, creating broader, diffuse darker regions and finally Vesta’s background surface material. This is consistent with howardite–eucrite–diogenite meteorites coming from Vesta.

So, presuming preheated combustible metals, and a fuel lean Oxygen dominated mix I hope to have more thrust than simply chemical combustion.  A little Hydrogen also introduced into burn the Oxygen might help the metal oxides in the plume to expand better.

The facility to preheat the device would be stationary relative to Vesta more or less.

As I have said this is to conserve Hydrogen and utilize metals as a fuel.

I mentioned that I was pondering Sodium Chloride, and (th) saw it as on opportunity to test my patience.  But he and you did help to define what may be true, so thankyou both.

I think that in the case of Vesta, Aluminum might be the major metal and not sodium, and Oxygen would be the Oxidizer.

It is possible that the device might be run extremely Oxygen rich, so that not all Oxygen is combusted, in that case it would be a partial Oxygen Steam Rocket.

While it could be that a ship would have an on-board electric power supply and then eject metal matter in some way, this thing is primed with heat prior to launch to make a more vigorous chemical reaction.

It might be a bit more like a bomb than a rocket.  Perhaps too much g force for a human to ride, I don't know.

Perhaps it is not a winner, I just don't know, but you have to take a look at something in order to understand it well.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2024-01-26 05:34:24)


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#1608 2024-01-26 20:53:32

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,389

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

After Mars/Phobos/Deimos, I am very interested in Vesta.  Apparently, it once had streams of water running on its surface, for a short time a long time ago.  It is volcanic and is a terrestrial object by nature, resembling the terrestrial planets.  Ceres is valuable as well of course and may provide Nitrogen which I fear will be scarce for Vests.

If a method can be found to send material objects from the outer worlds to Venus, then Venus might fill them with Nitrogen and other things.
The solar wind then could propel these canisters back out to places like Vesta, and maybe Mars.

My guess is that biomes useful to humans, may be developed that only need a fraction of the Nitrogen that is available on Earth, and that genetics can make versions of humans that can live at fractional air pressure.  I would not take it too far, but we have people in the Andes and Tibet that are already partially adapted.

So, maybe people able to deal with say 33% air pressure with 10%of that as Nitrogen.  I don't have scientific numbers for that, but am suggesting that with some creativity it might be possible to have a population that can do OK with something near that.

So, it is possible that you would build "Metal" machines and give them some water in the asteroid belt, and then send those to Venus and fill them up with Oxygen and Nitrogen.

I won't push the envelope much further than that for now.  I would be good perhaps to have the human race adapt more to off Earth environments before trying to send our pattern replications to the stars.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-26 21:03:31)


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#1609 2024-01-27 17:22:40

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,389

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I think I may have something for Mars now.

I have previously pondered extracting water from ice masses on the grounding line.

I would like to use those then for some beneficial purpose.  I am looking to store compressed air, and also Liquid CO2.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_carbon_dioxide

So, you need 5.1 bars of pressure, and a temperature of?  Quote:

Properties

A container of liquid carbon dioxide behind a restaurant
Liquid carbon dioxide is a type of liquid which is formed from highly compressed and cooled gaseous carbon dioxide. It does not form under atmospheric conditions. It only exists when the pressure is above 5.1 atm and the temperature is under 31.1 °C (88.0 °F) (temperature of critical point) and above −56.6 °C (−69.9 °F) (temperature of triple point). The chemical symbol remains the same as gaseous carbon dioxide (CO
2).[3] It is transparent and odorless and the density of it is 1101 kg/m3 when the liquid is at full saturation at −37 °C (−35 °F).[4]

The solubility of water in liquid carbon dioxide is measured in a range of temperatures, ranging from −29 °C (−20 °F) to 22.6 °C (72.7 °F). At this temperature, the pressure is measured in a range from 15 to 60 atmospheres. The solubility turned out to be very low: from 0.02 to 0.10 %.[5]

As often happens when you query for something about CO2 you get climate things and other obstructions.

I think that water ice weighs about 9 mbar per foot, on Mars.  So, 5.1 bars = 5100 mbar.

5100 mbar / 9 = 566.6666666666667 feet.

One foot = 0.3048 meters.

So, 172.72 Meters if I have not screwed up.

This one in the "Temperate" zone is too shallow, I seems: https://www.space.com/30502-mars-giant- … y-mro.html

40 Meters or so.  Regolith could be heaped on top of it to provide the needed pressure, but I will look for thicker ice sheets.

https://www.astronomy.com/science/massi … d-on-mars/
Quote:

At each of these locations, they found thick shelves of relatively pure water ice located as little as 3.3 feet (1 meter) below the planet’s surface. Furthermore, some of these massive ice deposits were found to be more than 330 feet (100 meters) thick.

So, that comes up a bit short on average it looks like, but some spots may be deeper.

So that I can advance the idea, I will look at Korolev Crater: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korolev_(Martian_crater)

So, that would surely be deep enough, but I expect that other locations at a lower latitude will exist as well.

So, I am supposing that ice caves could be evaporated or melted to provide make-up water, and at sufficient depth, if you could line them with a suitable material, you might be able to store liquid CO2 in them.

At a shallower level it may be possible to make ice caves suitable to store air at pressures tolerable to humans.

On the surface we may indeed have ice covered lakes with portals, to let light in.  This could host photosynthesis in the more summer months.

The greater part of such lakes would perhaps be covered with ice and opaque materials over that, but the portals may have photons directed into them by a system of mirrors.

So, then this could be a system that would create and store air, and of course calories of organic matter.

I do think that there would be a place for nuclear, so that it could compress Martian air when the atmosphere is cooler, and divide in into liquid CO2, and a remnant with Nitrogen, Argon, and a small amount of CO2.  That could go into the photosynthesis systems.

While solar and nuclear could boil CO2 to generate electricity, I am wondering about geothermal with CO2.

But if the ground is too cold near the surface the CO2 may freeze.

Maybe Liquid Nitrogen, liquid Air?

It might be expensive, but perhaps you could put a double Eavor loop in were one handles liquid CO2 and the other handles compressed air.
The compressed air would be push into that well to heat up the ground a bit to prevent CO2 from freezing in the upper portions.

Not sure but maybe.  My thinking is that once you got the well deep enough and flowing, heat brought up from the depths would then perhaps warm the upper well enough that you would no longer have to use the compressed air.

That could be pretty deep though.  https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.10 … -5418-2_38

Quote:

Calculations based on the Viking Mission Data indicate that permafrost thicknesses range from about 3.5 km at the equator to approximately 8 km in the polar regions. The depths to the bottom of Martian permafrost are more than three times the depth characteristic of permafrost in terrestrial polar locations.

Perhaps another fluid could bring the heat up and then that heat to boil the CO2?  Perhaps an extreme brine.

I also know that a mixture of Hydrogen Peroxide and water?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_ … %20%C2%B0C.
Quote:

-56 °C

Not sure if adding salts would be tolerated or if it would lower the freezing point.  Not sure how dangerous the fluid would be when heated up.  Might not be stable.  Compression may stabilize it and also may lower the freezing point.



Perhaps if you could drill a deep enough hole and then flush it out with hot very dry air it could be primed.

Maybe geothermal with CO2 is not a good plan though.

I guess I will set that aside for later.

Done

I am very hopeful for the idea of building human houses in ice tubes.  Heat pumps could pull heat out of the tubes to put into the house.  If they both overheated, then you could dump heat into a nearby lake.

Anyway, I think that there could be some merit to the idea.

However, I think housing below that in the rock would be a thing to do as well.  Perhaps volcanic ash or sandstone.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2024-01-27 18:28:37)


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#1610 2024-01-28 08:58:13

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,389

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I think that in the last post I became a bit too obsessed with storing CO2 in ice caves lined with some sort of suitable materials.  It is perhaps not necessary to have too much of that.

The shallower ice at lower latitudes will be quite fine for getting water from the grounding line of the ice mass.  From that I think I am enthusiastic about the potential to use heat pumps to heat buildings inside of the ice tubes by drawing heat from various sources.  At the same time to cool the interior of the ice tunnels sufficiently to keep the ice stable.  I am thinking that the ice tubes may be pressurized in some cases, by lining them with some kind of a plastic film.  Keeping the air pressure inside balanced well enough so that the ice tubes will not tend to sag or blow out.  So, then perhaps these tubes can serve as air reserves for bad times such as global dust storms.

The buildings put inside of these, may also have some method of pressure retention in case of a leak in an ice tube.  Perhaps if it is not trusted people would travel though the ice tubes wearing something like the SpaceX flight suit which can give emergency life support.  Time will tell if that would be needed.

I mentioned heat pumps drawing heat from thermal reservoirs, and also the production of "Air" to fill the ice tubes.

Fresh water reservoirs can do that job.  They would be kept separate from the ice tubes to a degree that is safe.  Possibly berms of regolith would help with that.

These freshwater lakes would resemble a winter lake in high latitudes.  As I boy I learned that the water under the ice would be about 32 degrees F and, on the bottom, could be about 39 degrees F.  That is easier for me to work with but I will make the conversions now so that the others will not be confused.

About 0 degrees C of course and also on the bottom about 3.88888889 degrees C.

I know how to do the conversions manually, but the internet is easier.

The lakes will mostly be covered with ice which will be covered with opaque materials, but there will be portals that have windows that are vertical, and a system of mirrors to conduct light into these portals.  Heliostats outside on the ice will convey light into the portals.

Here we are then: OX9qvGE.png

The window on the portal is vertical to help keep it clean.  Obviously, this is schematic or block in diagram, not literally the build plan.

The bag can become warmer than 39 degF / 3.88888889 degC.  The bottom water is the heaviest state of fresh water in the lake.

As heat leaks out of the bag, it will warm the bottom water.  So, there is some stability.  If the lake gets warmer the ice layer may thin, and then it will radiate more heat to the outside environment.

During a winter at high latitudes such a lake can maintain the 39 degF / 3.88888889 degC water over the winter, as it is insulated by cooler lighter water above, and a layer of ice above that and typically snow as well.

We will not have snow but will need a vapor barrier so that the top of the ice does not sublimate into the air.

In a global dust storm on Mars, therefore there will be a thermal energy reservoir that can be tapped to heat buildings, provided you have energy for motors to drive a heat pump system to extract heat from the lake.  One such thing could be the air in the tubes, and fuels that you created from biomass during the good summer times.  Possibly you might have means to produce electricity from that.

And of course, as I have said, I also support nuclear power.  If the ice tunnels get too warm at times, then a heat pump system can extract heat and push it into the houses or the lake.

Now this does not stop people from making "Glass Domes".  In reality perhaps Dr. Johnsons Mushroom Houses.  So, you would not be locked forever away from sunshine.  But as much food would be grown in the bags in the lakes, those sunny places would be more as parks to help the psychology of humans.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-28 09:34:05)


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#1611 2024-01-29 11:27:07

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

In the above scheme, the greenhouse solar collector lake needs to have its water level kept relatively constant.

Makeup water will come from grounding line ice tunnels.  But a fluctuating reservoir would also be helpful.  Only ice over it, no sunlight going in.  But you might do some chemical farming in it.

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#1612 2024-02-02 11:14:11

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I am continuing here from a post from elsewhere "Index» Water on Mars» hidden-glaciers-mars", Post #20: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 61#p218961
Quote:

Callibans post: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 82#p218882
Includes this link: https://www.space.com/mars-water-ice-eq … ozen-ocean
I have seen report that the quantity of ice could fill the red sea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Sea
Image Quote: 256px-Red_Sea_topographic_map-en.jpg

So, over time quite valuable.  But also, the ash/dust sediments above it may be of significant value also if it is cemented together well enough to carve habitats in.

I am going to continue this in a terraforming section.

Done

There may also be other equatorial bodies of ice/brine.  Candor Chaos is one such possible: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne … 180979267/
Quote:

Beneath Canyons on Mars, Astronomers Find Potentially ‘Water-Rich Area the Size of the Netherlands’
A Martian orbiter located a large reserve of hydrogen in a mountainous area of the Red Planet

However, the situation in Candor Chaos may allow human settlements near melting permafrost.
In that case if the ice body is suitable then we might hope to melt a series of ice covered bodies of water which perhaps will have protection from evaporation.

But the big one can simply have a big cavity drilled into it, open to air.




Elizabeth Gamillo


Daily Correspondent

December 20, 2021

So, we have very big ice bodies near the equator, with Phobos and Deimos orbiting fairly much above them.

This indicates to me that we may want to get into orbital power satellites for Mars.  Unlike for Earth, we have Phobos and Deimos to build them out of.  And in fact, if we build them in Martian orbit, I will not rule out building some to ship back to Earth.

Pause..............

Unlike for most places on Earth, if we drill into a buried ice body, and extract water, we will get sink holes.

But as a terraforming tool this might be good.  For thick deposits, an initial melting will produce subsidence, and springs of water.

After that power from orbit can increase the melting.  Microwaves and also sunshine concentrations can do it.  Yes, there will be evaporation, but then that can be used to improve the conditions on Mars to be more to our liking.  The areas where this was done could be quite unstable so not a good place for humans and their structures.

The power satellites would not be only used for this purpose, but to also deliver power to the settlements.

It is possible that if enough evaporation occurred from it then a safe haven would exist in the center where the grounding line of the ice was exposed.  Then it would be surrounded by enormous scarps, perhaps 2 miles high, which could be dangerous.  But at the bottom of that hole the air pressure will be significantly higher, and water might be a bit more stable.

A terraforming tool we would be aiming for would be ice clouds: https://skyandtelescope.org/astronomy-n … arly-mars/  Quote:

SOLAR SYSTEM

WATER-ICE CLOUDS COULD HAVE WARMED EARLY MARS
BY: THEO NICITOPOULOS MAY 10, 2021

But of course, other terraforming methods might be used at the same time.  Greenhouse gasses, and albedo modification of the polar ice caps, perhaps.

At the point where CO2 no longer condenses in the Martian winter, it is said to be possible to have temporary streams due to higher atmospheric pressure and snowfalls.
.
It may be important then to throttle back on the heating.  This is to be a way to distribute water even to the dry spots of Mars.

But Mars at times has had raging rivers, and I don't think we want that.  https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne … 180971821/  Quote:

The results show that many of the rivers—most larger and wider than rivers found on Earth—still had a strong flow 3 billion years ago, well into the period when the planet had begun to dry up and even as recently as 1 billion years ago. The phenomenon wasn’t just restricted to one region; these rivers were found all over the surface of the planet.

The things I hear about Mars is that it periodically had short episodes of warming with rivers flowing. 

In the early times the crust would be warm, and the volcanism may have spewed out more atmosphere, and also there may have been some methane.  So, it might have been hard for large bodies of ice to be buried and not eventually melt and burst forth.

So, a Mars quake or Meteor strike might have released a large quantity of water, and then due to ice clouds a warming may have occurred, not allowing dry ice to form.  But the Methane is all but gone, and volcanism is much less, and the form of it may have spewed out volcanic sediments that buried the ice more permanently.

The crust is colder as well.

But we may be in possession of a method to impose a process control that would wind the clock back to a mild form of warming that used to exist perhaps even 1 billion years ago on occasion.

So, just speculating on some ideas, if a power satellite industry could be implemented in orbit of Mars, feeding primarily on Phobos and Deimos, then while many of those would be used for Mars, such a device could also be used to propel itself to an asteroid or to the Earth.  Probably both.

So, actually power satellites could be an export product from orbital Mars and Mars itself.

This would then link it to a solar economy that could be developed.

Method of propulsion may be something like a Neumann Drive, mass driver, solar propulsion of some kind, or other. https://neumannspace.com/
On the way to Earth or some other location, it might stop by an asteroid to pick up more propellants.

Stony or other asteroids would do just fine.  So, propellants from Phobos, Deimos, and Mars itself would only need to be enough to get to an appropriate asteroid to be refilled with propellants.

Some Mars crossing asteroids might do just fine.

Earth Crossers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_E … _asteroids

Mars Crossers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_M … or_planets

So, then this might pay the bills.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-02-02 12:09:18)


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#1613 2024-02-02 19:43:10

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Continuing from the previous post, I want to be sure that a reader will understand that I am seeking a way(s), and do not assert a lot of certainty at this time.  Very much is not proven.

It is possible that robotics will rise to a new level, to the point that they could do the bulk of the physical manipulations in construction of power satellites.  That is a hope, not a certainty.  But at this time it looks like a fair bet.

Also uncertain is if the Earth would need to get power satellites from Mars/Phobos/Deimos, or could get them from the materials of the Earth/Moon.  I do not know which would prove the best, but I want to make a good case for Mars/Phobos/Deimos.  And time will tell.

To build power satellites, the preferred materials will come from Phobos and Deimos, but, if necessary, some materials may come from Mars.

Later on, if the orbits of Mars are to be construction yards for power devices, ships, and habitats, a method to bring materials in from the asteroid belt may be possible.

In the case where a satellite is mirrors, then that might be able to sail on photons.  In the case where the satellite generates large amounts of electricity, then solar wind sailing might work out.

It is generally easier to go outward in the sun's gravity well to a higher orbit (Elevation).  But as these are orbiting Mars, they may do multiple swings, dipping into the solar propulsion method when the method is moving them to a higher Martian orbit.

Eventually if they exit the Martian gravity well going in the opposite of the sun orbit of Mars, then they will develop a perihelion that may move significantly down in the sun's gravity well.  I am not educated well in the field of such things, so I can only guess how effective that will be.  It is possible I suppose that auxiliary propulsion methods, perhaps including gravity assists would get it down to near the Earth's orbit.  Then it could use magnetic braking when traveling on the inward stroke of the orbit to quench the energy of the Aphelion of the orbit.

I think you would try to get the freebies that you might have available, but likely you would need some additional propulsion methods.  Maybe an electric rocket method like the Neumann Drive.

Since we would be hoping to inflate the Martian atmosphere further, it may be possible that loads from the asteroid belt could be aero braked into orbit of Mars to help supply materials to build things with.

I am just exploring if there could be an economic case for Mars being a hardware manufacturing center that would deliver made things to other places in the solar system.  The Earth and I would hope Venus.  Then Venus could become a source of Nitrogen.  If so, then each planet, Venus, Earth, and Mars would have their money-making potentials.  Of course, for Earth/Moon, the more energy, the bigger and wealthier the economy could be.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-02-02 20:03:25)


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#1614 2024-02-03 12:51:22

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Power beamed to the Earth would not heat the planet as much as greenhouse gasses do.  But I don't know what the limits could be for how much power could be beamed to the Moon for industrial processes there.

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#1615 2024-02-03 13:19:38

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I have been having another look at this: https://www.space.com/mars-water-ice-eq … ozen-ocean
Quote:

Water ice buried at Mars' equator is over 2 miles thick
News
By Keith Cooper published January 18, 2024

The Mars Express orbiter has detected enough water ice buried beneath the Red Planet's equator to cover the entire planet in a shallow ocean if melted.

Image Quote: EqtMyZH5SN8CxNSuVwJQ75-1024-80.jpg
Quote:

In this image, the white line on Mars' surface (top) shows a stretch of land that was scanned by MARSIS. The graph below shows the shape of the land and the structure of the subsurface, with the layer of dry sediments (likely dust or volcanic ash) in brown and the layer of suspected ice-rich deposits in blue. The graph shows that the ice deposit is thousands of meters high and hundreds of kilometers wide. (Image credit: CReSIS/KU/Smithsonian Institution)

While I am familiar with many metric measurements, it becomes a bit easier for me to visualize miles and feet sometimes.

Quote:

The deposits are thick, extended 3.7km (2.3) miles underground, and topped by a crust of hardened ash and dry dust hundreds of meters thick. The ice is not a pure block but is heavily contaminated by dust. While its presence near the equator is a location more easily accessible to future crewed missions, being buried so deep means that accessing the water-ice would be difficult.

You may frown at my method but measuring the vertical axis on the graph, I get 9/8 th inches for a km, and show half of that as maximum.
I show two spots that are less than 1/8th of an inch, so those may be 1/9 th of a km thick.

So a Kilometer is = 3280.8399 feet.  So then about

Going by their graph, the sediments as overburden are not more than 1/2 km deep at maximum.
And I think that the sediments are about 364.55 feet thick at minimum.

That may be reasonably accessible.

Using the Distance (km) index, then the valley to the right at about the 950 km location, the situation may be optimal.  If a cut were made going left into the sediments, then it would intercept the body of ice, much of which might be at a higher elevation than the tunnel.

On the Distance (km) index, a large portion of ice from about 700 to 950 km would be above the dig.  If we can hope that the bulk of the sediments are well cemented, then digging to the ice body may not be that hard.

So, this might be in reach: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 43#p218943
Quote:

The big question is can you dig good underground habitats in the dust/ash layer.

https://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient … cia-001394
Image Quote: Derinkuyu-1.jpg
Quote:

A visual depiction of Derinkuyu. Photo credit: Wikimedia

Most people didn’t live in the underground cities full time. Underneath the cities was a vast network of tunnels, connecting each home in the area to the city. When the area came under attack, families would flee to their basements, rush through the dark tunnels, and gather in the underground city.

Unwary soldiers could be caught in the many traps laid throughout the labyrinthine corridors, such as stones which could be rolled to block doorways, and holes in the ceiling through which spears could be dropped. Invaders were further outwitted by the Christian builders who made their tunnels narrow, forcing their enemies to fight, and be picked off, one by one.

Done

We need to consider that the gravity on Mars is about .38 g.

How deep is Derinkuyu?
Quote:

Global web icon
Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derinkuyu … round_city
Derinkuyu underground city - Wikipedia
Derinkuyu also known as Elengubu, Cappadocian Greek: Μαλακοπή Malakopi; Turkish: Derinkuyu Yeraltı Şehri) is an ancient multi-level underground city near the modern town of Derinkuyu in Nevşehir Province, Turkey, extending to a depth of approximately 85 metres (280 ft). It is large enough to have … See more

So, that looks possible.  To repeat myself: "And I think that the sediments are about 364.55 feet thick at minimum."

I guess the transition from dry sediments to icy sediments will be of a strange nature.  But if the bulk is cemented either by age or rock or by icy content it may not require too much bracing as the gravity is less on Mars.

It is a little hard to visualize as the graph compresses the horizontal km relative to the vertical meters.  But this could be really big stuff.

So, a large portion of the ice would not need to be lifted to a higher elevation.  I guess melting could be used, but I think evaporation might work better.  Not sure.

So, if a local group would be able to dig, and get enough water for survival off of the extracted materials, (Using tight recycling), then it should not be that hard to get to the ice, and they might be creating pressurized space while they would dig.

Another location with easier ice access might be the first base that could refill Starship with propellants.

Candor Chaos might be the place for that.  Once this one got up and running though it also could refill ships.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-02-03 14:13:42)


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#1616 2024-02-04 09:45:43

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I am fairly sure that a major key to Mars is the balance of (Ice/Soil / (Soil/Ice).  With tools we might influence that balance.

I think that Mars has mostly lost the ability to place ice over soil.  So, it is stuck in it's not quite habitable mode.

We have known that there was large amounts of ice at the poles of Mars.  Then we discovered ice sheets in the "Temperate Zones".

Now we seem to have evidence of ice in the "Equatorial Zones".

Some of the Equator ice seems to be accessible, but large amounts will need special methods to find a way to get them on top of the soil.
And we do not want to exhume all the ice as that may lead to a planet of raging rivers, and atmospheric losses into sediments of the rivers.
So, we want to have a process control with a set point.

For a time, it was felt that first settlements would need to be at mid latitudes where ice was accessible.  But now if it is true, that the ices can be found in great quantity around the equator, this does look like it may be a better location.

So, I am very interested in orbital Mars.  It has the two moons Phobos and Deimos, and also materials from asteroids may be possible to capture to Martian orbit, using Ballistic Capture, or using Aero-Capture.

Mars itself may be a doner of materials to orbit.  If we swell the atmosphere too much we may damage the potential to use Mass Drivers on the surface of Mars to deliver materials.  Calliban has given caution on that.  I think that it might still be possible to use the peaks of the volcanos on the Tharsis Bulge to mount mass drivers on though.  But I am not in a position to know that.

With power satellites in orbit of Mars, we may poke at the ice bodies and cause them to fountain up above the soils, altering the balance.

But now, I think we may want to do that to the higher latitude ones, and preserve the equatorial ice as a resource.

If we use mirrors then you have to heat the soil over the ice, but some scarps are exposed so that might work on those.

Here is an article about those scarps: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aao1619

But I think microwaves are interesting as they may heat the interior of an ice body and not so much the overlying soil or top layers of ice.
Of course little brine droplets might react to such microwaves.

Water released will eventually migrate to the poles, but over time it might be possible to maintain a high insulating cloud situation long enough.

My plans for the polar ice caps would involve Albedo changes.

In the summers you capture the sunlight at the poles with solar power equipment and inject the energy into the ice body.  This would at least be a way to thaw the CO2 ices, and to reduce the attractiveness of the polar ice caps to water vapor.  The polar ice caps have some altitude, which reduces their ability to condense water vapor to ice, but of course as they are very white, then the become very cold.

But Robots could tunnel into the ice, and have heated cities in them.  Heated does not generally mean melting, but rather warmer than normal.  If you have manufacturing in these tunnels and vaults, then the waste heat will go into the ice.  And the robots could take refuge in these in the vicious Martian winter.

Humans could live there as well.  I have already suggested that ice tunnels with houses in them might work.  The houses could be heated with heat pumps, perhaps drawing heat from the tunnels.  Of course, thermal reservoirs might also be possible.

Such a robot city on a polar ice cap may manufacture many things including greenhouse gasses.  But the major operation would likely be seasonal, and they might hibernate in the winter in the ice tunnels.  So, we may hope to dig out parts of the ice caps.  In the summers the water from the tunnels might be purposely pushed into the high atmosphere, to feed the high-altitude clouds.

I have suggested that Mars/Phobos/Deimos could feed an orbital community.  I have also suggested that materials from the asteroid belt could be aero braked to Martian orbit.

But I want to ponder using solar propulsions and Ballistic Capture to bring materials into orbit of Mars from the Mars crossing asteroids.

Here are some interesting references:
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/201 … 013420.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/433_Eros
We may want to "Eat" this one:

Mars-crosser
Eros is a Mars-crosser asteroid, the first known to come within the orbit of Mars. Objects in such an orbit can remain there for only a few hundred million years before the orbit is perturbed by gravitational interactions. Dynamical integrations suggest that Eros may evolve into an Earth-crosser within as short an interval as two million years, and has a roughly 50% chance of doing so over a time scale of 108~109 years.[18] It is a potential Earth impactor,[18] about five times larger than the impactor that created Chicxulub crater and led to the extinction of the non-avian dinosaurs.[a]

Image Quote: 233px-Animation_of_NEAR_Shoemaker_trajectory.gif
Quote:

Animation of NEAR Shoemaker trajectory from 19 February 1996 to 12 February 2001.
  NEAR Shoemaker  Eros-Green  Earth-Dark Blue  Mathilde  Sun-Yellow

So, if we mine an asteroid like Eros, we may use some type of solar propulsion to align the orbits of the goods for a Ballistic Capture to Mars.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_capture

Of course, modification of the orbit of the payloads, and the alignment of the timing of the orbit to be the proper conjunction with Mars would be needed.

Mars has limited Nitrogen so eventually it would be desirable to try to procure more from another source like Venus or the more outer solar system.

Using the solar moth method from Isaac Arthurs description might be one way.
https://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/4916f16658a9e
https://isaacarthur.net/video/solar-mot … lar-sails/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/25143_Itokawa

Having enough Nitrogen then you may do this thing around Mars:  https://www.sciencealert.com/could-huma … anet-ceres

Image Quote: satellite-1.jpg

At first the Nitrogen can come from Mars, but later from other sources.

A question exists.  What happens to the volatiles that escape from planets and also artificial habitats?  Do they eventually condense in the outer solar system?  In that case then it may be possible to "Irrigate" the inner solar system by bringing them back in.  So, then an almost eternal supply of such volatiles.

I think it would outlast the human race or whatever follows it.

Possibly using power from the sun or nuclear power of some kind to do it.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-02-04 11:44:52)


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#1617 2024-02-04 12:57:42

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Posts: 7,389

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I would like to see if robots and even humans could settle in the Martian ice caps.  I think it may be beneficial to do so, and may enhance terraforming.

The idea is to intercept sunlight before it is reflected into space by icy surfaces, and put it to use, storing heat in the interior of ice masses.

The method would probably have the intermediate step of running machinery and then storing the waste heat from that in the ice mass and even in ice water in a tunnel system.

On Earth, the polar sea of the North, keeps costal temperatures from getting as cold as Antarctica does in the winter.

I do not want to melt the ice caps into seas anymore.  Rather to carve tunnels in them, and store waste heat in those ice tunnels,  Perhaps even storing melt water in them.

So, this simple trick might work: 0Gj5sse.png

If the tunnels were not too big then the differential specific gravity of the ice water and ice would not cause the water to drain downward into a crack in the ice while the lower ice mass caved upwards.  But you could line the waters bottom also provide even better sureness about that.  The water at the bottom could even be a bit above freezing, but not necessary.

You could just warm up ice tunnels without water.

In any case you would be warming up the ice mass of the ice caps, without destroying the basic structure of them.

This would give you a place to shelter your equipment during the winters, your robots and Heliostats and other equipment.

This strategy could be extended to lower latitudes where significant ice masses existed.

This may reduce the ability of the CO2 of the atmosphere to condense in the areas so treated.

Early in the spring the equipment could emerge and intercept the sunlight, even before the seasonal ice caps would melt.  So, then you are capturing more heat to Mars.  You are altering the albedo.  The energy intercepted could go to the creation of greenhouse gasses for instance but the waste heat of that would be dumped into the tunnel system.

And of course, other manufacturing could occur.  And when possible the waste heat dumped into the ice tunnels underground.

And in making the tunnels extra water would be provided, and that could be used to help make greenhouse gasses, fuels, and perhaps to cause to go into the upper atmosphere to promote high level clouds.

If water were in the tunnels, then a layer of ice above it would be preferred as a place where robots could work and also take resort during the winter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martian_polar_ice_caps
Image Quote (North Ice Cap): 200px-Martian_north_polar_cap.jpg
Image Quote (South Ice Cap): 200px-South_Polar_Cap_of_Mars_during_Martian_South_summer_2000.jpg

The method could be done to the exposed ice and also extended to lower latitudes where the ice is covered by wind born sediments.

I believe that the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_(spacecraft) found ice under soil.

So this has a map of location: https://www.bbc.com/news/10151001
Image Quote: _44680846_landing_1_sites466.gif
It found water ice but I am not sure how deep that ice was at that location: https://www.kennedyspacecenter.com/blog … er-on-mars

https://www.space.com/5435-images-phoen … n-ice.html

So, instead of waiting for spring to evaporate the seasonal ice caps, the robotic equipment could deploy into the sunshine as soon as it was of benefit to cause an early spring.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-02-04 13:48:13)


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#1618 2024-02-04 13:56:25

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

It may seem quite ambitious, but if you do have almost infinite robot labor, it could be done I think.

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#1619 2024-02-04 14:27:01

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

So, using albedo manipulations, and greenhouse gasses, and forcing water above dirt to cause high clouds, then also there is the potential to beam energy down from orbit to Mars, maybe even to high latitudes, so the robots in the tunnels perhaps could keep working underground during the winter.

Energy used in the tunnels above the ice-covered water: 0Gj5sse.png , might start to overheat the ice, so then a heat pump method would push the heat into the water below.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-02-04 14:29:23)


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#1620 2024-02-04 17:20:02

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I want to talk about orbital habitat for Mars.  Bringing asteroid materials into Mars orbit using a solar propulsive method and Ballistic Capture, then this may be easier than bringing materials up from the Earth or the Earth's moon.  Of course, Phobos and Deimos already exist.

Mars can provide Hydrogen, Nitrogen and Carbon.  The two moons may have some Hydrogen and Carbon or not. 

So, if you are building orbital habitat in the Earth/Moon system, where are you to get the Hydrogen, Nitrogen, and Carbon?

Drawing materials off of Near Earth and Near Mars asteroids, may prevent collisions with Earth and Mars, while providing building materials for orbital habitat around Mars.  At first to build those around Mars you might draw resources such as Hydrogen, Carbon, and Nitrogen from Mars/Phobos/Deimos.  But eventually replacement materials from the more outer solar system could replace those.

Also, it may be possible to get Nitrogen and Carbon from Venus.  Mars would simply send power plants and habitats already filled with water, perhaps.  Orbiting Venus, they would get about 4 times as much energy.

So, rather than Mars being some place where you have to live underground you might also have the option to live in such orbital habitats.

Those then might send extra energy to the surface of Mars for use, and to help terraform the planet.

I am not much of an advocate of Space Elevators, but Mars would be easier than Earth.

We might take a page from Caliban's book where you could shoot ice chunks to intercept Mars and evaporate up in the atmosphere, but we could also send hydrocarbons perhaps with some Nitrogen, say from Ceres.  Then the stuff burning up in the atmosphere, you then could extract the atmospheric components and bring them up to the orbital location where habitat is constructed.

So, if they are small enough the hopefully burn up before striking the Martian surface.  And this sort of trick might work from other worlds, many of the outer belt and Greeks and Trojans may be Carbonaceous and perhaps icy.  You don't actually have to get the stuff into Martian orbit or to land it on Mars you just burn it into gasses and dust by entry to the atmosphere.

These things constricted could go to the three more inner planets to bask in the sun, but also the Sun-Planet L4 and L5 zones might host them as well.

It will be slow to get them to more inner places in the solar system using solar propulsion of some kind, but they will be habitable all the way, so if it takes 30 years, maybe that does not matter so much.

Done

So, that might be a way to generate greenhouse gasses.  A heavy Hydrocarbon burning up in the Martian atmosphere may produce gas type hydrocarbon vapors.

So, the energy you devoted in changing the inertia of the materials to intercept Mars may go into heat that may synthesize greenhouse gasses.

Then Hydrogen and Carbon extracted and brought to orbit could be used with solar heat to extract Oxygen from the Materials of Phobos Deimos and asteroid materials.

Done

One possible delivery option would be to have a tanker ship that would hold a whole load of this materials as grains, perhaps, carry it to intercept Mars, release it to disperse but collide with Mars, and then the ship may thrust a bit to miss Mars, and then orbit back out to the asteroid belt.  The grains dispersed enough perhaps to the size of the whole Martian atmosphere, or somewhat less. If it is small none should reach the ground.

A very efficient method of delivery to Mars and then brought up to the orbital construction area. 

Making lots and lots of "Land".

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-02-04 17:49:34)


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#1621 2024-02-05 09:15:39

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,389

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I wanted to develop this a bit further and point out a few things that are potential for it: zPufrNM.png

Some of the "Improvements" which may be implemented are shown.

One danger of having a body of water over pure ice is that the water will weigh more than the ice below it.  This could make for an unstable condition.  But if you made an ice cube that is dirty enough, then dropping it in water it would not float.  So, building these on a grounding line or in ice that is dirty to some extent can have value.

If we make the needed improvements such as insulation or building on the grounding line, then the water below may be just a bit warmer in the case of fresh water.  This can mimic a northern lake in the winter, where the water near the ice on top, may be near freezing, but the water deeper, say perhaps 6 feet or more could be just a bit warmer.  Numbers could be 39 degrees F, 3.89 degrees C.

I have shown a building on top of the ice on stilts.  While insulating it well is sensible. still the heat from the building and the heat from the water below might accumulate in the air space outside the building and above the ice.  A heat pump can correct that and dump the heat into the water or the building.  And of course, the heat in the water can be sent to the building using a heat pump method as well.

One thing to keep in mind is that there is a lot of fossils cold in the ice on Mars.  I expect that the permafrost is on average much colder than on Earth.

https://www.space.com/16907-what-is-the … -mars.html
Quote:

Mars's atmosphere is about 100 times thinner than Earth's. Without a "thermal blanket," Mars can't retain any heat energy. On average, the temperature on Mars is about minus 80 degrees F (minus 60 degrees Celsius) according to NASA. In winter, near the poles, temperatures can get down to minus 195 degrees F (minus 125 degrees C). A summer day on Mars may get up to 70 degrees F (20 degrees C) near the equator, but at night the temperature can plummet to about minus 100 degrees F (minus 73 degrees C).

This happens to be a good thing though as in ice building is favored by a greater stability than would be on Earth.

I have also showed a grey liner for the entire section of tube.  This could be some type of inflatable plastic balloon or such.

So, this one has been upgraded quite a bit.

A lot of tubes though could be more basic, if they are simply to get water or to house robots that do not need as much protection.

For energy these could have Aluminum or steel conductors from the surface into the tube.  I am sure some reliable fixtures could be invented that would make it very likely to work well and not leak air.  Such then would be connecting to a solar installation on the surface very likely.

But if you wanted a power system more like what we do on Earth, that is a potential also.

Greenhouses using natural sunlight or directed sunlight from Heliostats are likely on the surface, but the building and the water could host lighted or chemical agriculture.

Most buried ice can be considered for this but this old article has one of interest: https://www.space.com/30502-mars-giant- … y-mro.html

Quote:

A giant slab of ice as big as California and Texas combined lurks just beneath the surface of Mars between its equator and north pole, researchers say.

Quote:

The ice the scientists found measures 130 feet (40 m) thick and lies just beneath the dirt, or regolith, or Mars.

"It extends down to latitudes of 38 degrees. This would be like someone in Kansas digging in their backyard and finding ice as thick as a 13-story building that covers an area the size of Texas and California combined," Bramson said.

So, in Martian gravity the ice alone may exert a pressure at the grounding line of about 1170 mbar, if it is pure ice.  But then there is soil on top of the ice as well.  So, I am guessing that ice tubes on the grounding line could be pressurized to 2/3 of a bar safely which would be a Nitrogen/Oxygen mix.

Robot tunnels might not be pressurized that high, but only slightly perhaps.

So, for makeup water needed you would be able to construct an enormous number of tunnels all over much of Mars over a very long time period.



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Last edited by Void (2024-02-05 09:54:23)


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#1622 2024-02-05 10:15:06

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,389

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

So, based on the previous post and the fact that more water reserves keep being found on Mars, I think I can see, a case whereas ice tube habitat is manufactured, Hydrogen is extracted and sent to orbit, the Oxygen being released as a waste or used.

If it is Hydrogen being moved to orbit by tanker, boiloff will not be a problem if it is quickly reacted with regolith from Phobos and Deimos or also asteroid materials brought in.

A solar oven at a high temperature may allow the processing or regolith ores in this manner to produce water in orbit.  Carbon from the two moons may be sufficient to also do this sort of thing but even Carbon from Mars itself might be employed.

So, probably lots of Water and CO2 available in Martian orbits.  The process of making water and CO2 in orbit would also result in a lot of reduced regolith which may make it more magnetic, so that magnetic separations may be possible to create a beneficiated product that could be processed into metals.

I consider Nitrogen, Argon, and Oxygen to be "Carrier" gasses in the Martian atmosphere.  They are not likely to condense at surface conditions on Mars.  CO2 and H20 will however.  So, if you release a lot of Oxygen into the Martian atmosphere, perhaps you could greatly change the atmospheric dynamics, by increasing the amount of "Carrier" gasses.

Calliban has notions of how to deliver water to Mars which have merits, I might modify them.  The water would come from the outer solar system, perhaps Ceres, perhaps beyond that.

So, you would have a very large reservoir of source materials for Oxygen for Mars, and Hydrogen for Mars orbits.  Ballistic Capture of Stony Sourced asteroid materials from asteroids inner to Mars in the solar system would provide metals, silicates, and Oxygen to Martian orbits.

Water in Martian orbit in large quantity could allow the creation of "Aquatic." habitats/greenhouses/power plants.

A nice operating temperature inside of a liquid greenhouse would be 20 degrees C.

So here we go: https://endmemo.com/chem/vaporpressurewater.php
So, water may stay liquid at that temperature at 23.2977 degrees C.

So, if you have water in a spinning drum, then windows need only hold that minimum differential pressure.  The air inside would likely be Oxygen, which is not precious in that situation.  Nitrogen fertilizers might be brought up from Mars.

Plastic bags may allow the evasion of the problems of Henrys laws.  The interiors can be filled with dissolved CO2 and Oxygen.

So, you could grow things in that manner.  But you also could control how much sunlight was entering, to moderate overheating.  Another method to moderate overheating would be to siphon off heat with some type of power generating device, so that the waste heat would not be wasted, and the water would be kept cool.

The water itself would make very good radiation shielding, so human habitats might be included inside the water column.

While Nitrogen would be extracted as fertilizer from Mars, eventually a method to bring in more Nitrogen from Venus or the Outer Solar System might be implemented.  This could be similar as to how water would be sent to Mars, as a sort of impact of the atmosphere of Nitrogen containing compounds.

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Last edited by Void (2024-02-05 10:44:52)


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#1623 2024-02-05 11:42:01

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,389

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

So, a water filled device, perhaps a cylinder, could have anti-solar cells on its outside, as space can be cold in the shadows.

It may be possible to work with water vapor to turn a turbine, in various ways, but if you have a radiator with water in it you risk freeze damage.

Perhaps a Hydrocarbon fluid would do.  Eavor uses a mix.  But their temperatures are different.

This would be between 20 degrees C or so and the cold of the universe, radiative cooling.

If the air pressure on top of the water column was say 30 mbar, then it would be very easy to boil using a vacuum method and so then you would have lots of distilled water.

It may not be desirable to have nutrients in the main water as this might allow algae blooms that could interfere with farming.

Instead, you might have terrarium bags and pressure vessels.

These could be filled with water or Air.  Water is easier.  For Hydrilla, fresh water at 20 degrees C would be just fine as long as it gets the nutrients it needs.  For terrestrial garden crops, of course you would need an air filled device with windows and able to tolerate a differential pressure of some level.

But it should be workable. 

Humans would have some good protection as long as they stayed low in the water column.  If they has pressure suits then they would be able to go higher.

So, I think this could be a very productive method in orbits of Mars.

This is not to say you could not have something like an https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Neill_cylinder in orbit as well.
Image Quote: 220px-Spacecolony3edit.jpeg

But the water cylinders may be the gainers of profits more than those.

As I think that stony asteroid materials from orbits more inside of that of Mars could be brought into orbit of Mars, and that a very large volume of volatiles can be brought to Mars as well from Venus, and also the more outer solar system, I anticipate that Mars could have an export industry building power plants and habitats to sell to other places.

Done

Just with guesswork, I think that some organic chemicals with Nitrogen bonded to them could be synthesized in a more outer solar system location.  Ceres is a fair guess.  https://chem.libretexts.org/Courses/Sac … s%20amides.  Quote:

Compounds containing a nitrogen atom bonded in a hydrocarbon framework are classified as amines. Compounds that have a nitrogen atom bonded to one side of a carbonyl group are classified as amides.

So, as a modification of an idea that Calliban came up with I would imagine ships carrying this stuff, able to dispense this stuff into space so that it would collide with the Martian atmosphere, where the ships were able to avoid that collision, and use a relatively free return to the asteroid belt.  Perhaps the ships might engage in a gravity assist and maybe an Oberth burn.

The other objective is that the delivered materials do not reach the ground as an impact hazard.

Ceres might not be the only place where this sort of delivery could be generated from.

So, then if stony materials can be imported using Ballistic Capture, then a very long term ability to construct habitats and power stations would be maintained.  Almost indefinitely, I would think.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-02-05 12:01:39)


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#1624 2024-02-05 12:28:18

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,389

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Tholen's might be the trick.  But then you might be Titanforming Mars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tholin
Quote:

Tholins (after the Greek θολός (tholós) "hazy" or "muddy";[2] from the ancient Greek word meaning "sepia ink") are a wide variety of organic compounds formed by solar ultraviolet or cosmic ray irradiation of simple carbon-containing compounds such as carbon dioxide (CO
2), methane (CH
4) or ethane (C
2H
6), often in combination with nitrogen (N
2) or water (H
2O).[3][4] Tholins are disordered polymer-like materials made of repeating chains of linked subunits and complex combinations of functional groups, typically nitriles and hydrocarbons, and their degraded forms such as amines and phenyls. Tholins do not form naturally on modern-day Earth, but they are found in great abundance on the surfaces of icy bodies in the outer Solar System, and as reddish aerosols in the atmospheres of outer Solar System planets and moons.

Some of the trojans may have tholins on them: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE

Done
https://www.britannica.com/science/small-body


But tholin's could be manufactured perhaps.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-02-05 12:35:36)


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#1625 2024-02-06 09:19:25

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,389

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I am grafting a post from elsewhere into here, as it has importance for Mars Terraforming I feel: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 51#p219051
Quote:

This is pretty good for those who are interested in solar panel power: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqizLQDi9BM
Quote:

Have we been doing Solar wrong all along?

Undecided with Matt Ferrell
1.34M subscribers

He mentions albedo, both deserts and snow.  We would have those factors on Mars.

There are not much for clouds on Mars that would help, I believe.

Dust is an issue of course and especially dust storms.  But I anticipate that vertical would accumulate less dust, and perhaps be easier to clean.

I have my eyes on this for high latitudes.  You may be able to change the progression of fall and spring on Mars with these.  As they would not be covered by winter CO2 frost in the same way that the horizontal ground would, early sunshine would warm the springs early and help dissipate the frost both on the panels and the ground.  Similarly, it might delay the fall accumulations of frost.

I believe that on Earth the march of evergreen forests to the North, is likely a part of the passage away from ice age conditions for the same reason, but I do not deny the warming from greenhouse gasses as well.

In the video, vertical solar panels along railroad tracks are mentioned.  In the USA we would also have our freeway system, but car wrecks may damage them, so it may not be quite as good.  Also, the roads are not always snow covered but would reflect some light.

As this is a terraform method by albedo, I well remention it in the Terraform section.

Done


It may look like a daunting task to deploy so many solar panels, but if we are talking about an autonomous robotic construction method then it may actually be possible.

We may also perhaps consider it for dust control, as they may in part act like dust fences.
https://www.weathersolve.com/weathersolve-dust-fences/
https://www.epa.gov/system/files/docume … fences.pdf
Quote:

Wind Fences and Sand Fences

For dust to go airborne on Mars, of course wind is involved.  If you modify the wind, you may perhaps stifle dust storms.

https://www.nasa.gov/solar-system/the-f … 0with%20it.  Quote:

The Fact and Fiction of Martian Dust Storms

Quote:

The radiative heat of sunlight reaching the surface of the planet is what drives these dust storms. As sunlight hits the ground, it warms the air closest to the surface, leaving the upper air cooler. As in thunderstorms on Earth, the warm and cool air together become unstable, with warm air rising up and taking dust with it.

So, perhaps not only somewhat blocking the sideways path of wind, but also perhaps cooling the ground with shade, and if dust devils start they may not reach to the ground.  At least that is a hope.  It may depend on the structure of the solar panel wind fences.

The panels may also be used as radiators I think.  A working fluid may be suitable, perhaps a hydrocarbon.  Since the panels would generate electricity, I expect that "Thermal Batteries" of bricks might work pretty well for a hot side. Also, created simulations of Antarctic Dry Valley lakes could store very large amounts of energy over the winter.

Rolling back to this: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 32#p219032
zPufrNM.png
In many high latitude places this may work as well.

Solar panels will deteriorate over time but since they would be wind fences and radiators, I think they could be kept in service much longer than peak efficiency of power output might dictate.  I guess you might replace a certain percent of them each year.

The other weather condition that is of concern is CO2 frost in the winter, and how it might damage the exposed equipment.  Hopefully the things can be built to endure, but it may be that in some cases parts have to be moved underground for the winter into ice tunnels to protect.

The Phoenix Lander: https://mars.nasa.gov/resources/3147/ph … 29%20thick.  Quote:

With early spring at the Phoenix landing site comes progressive sublimation of carbon-dioxide frost that has blanketed the lander and surrounding terrain throughout the winter. During the long polar-winter night, atmospheric carbon dioxide freezes onto the surface, building up a layer of frost roughly 30 centimeters (about one foot) thick.

As the panels can be elevated from the ground, it may be that dust will not coat them as badly as the probes we have sent that are solar.  Also, they would be vertical, which may help.  But robotic cleaning equipment would be needed on a continuing basis, I am sure.

This robotic system could also generate greenhouse gasses.  The ice tunnels could be expanded to yield water for Methane, and other hydrocarbons.  Also, I think that Nitrous Oxide could be generated.

My understanding is that each greenhouse gas works with a spectrum of infrared light to block thermal losses to space, so a spectrum of gasses would be suitable.

I am an advocate of orbital habitations and power plants, mirrors about Mars, so actually various ways to transmit energy from orbit including mirrors may work with this sort of setup.  This can help to alter the nature of Martian climate and weather.

I earlier mentioned created versions of Antarctic Dry Valley Lakes to store thermal energy.  This would simply be ice covered solar ponds.

I have talked about them in the past and will again now, as they would fit in very well with this scheme.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 … 008-9052-1

Two lakes I am most familiar with are Lake Vida and Lake Vanda.

Lake Vida is very cold, but shows the extremes that life can endure:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Vida
Quote:

Lake Vida is one of the largest lakes in the McMurdo Dry Valley region and is a closed-basin endorheic lake. The permanent surface ice on the lake is the thickest non-glacial ice on earth, reaching a depth of at least 21 metres (69 ft). The ice at depth is saturated with brine that is seven times as saline as seawater.[1] The high salinity allows the brine to remain liquid at an average yearly water temperature of −13 °C (9 °F). The ice cap has sealed the saline brine from external air and water for thousands of years creating a time capsule for ancient DNA. This combination of lake features make Lake Vida a unique lacustrine ecosystem on Earth.[2]

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn … s%20Europa.
Quote:

Lake Vida in East Antarctica has been buried for 2800 years under 20 metres of ice, but teems with life. The discovery of strange, abundant bacteria in a completely sealed, icebound lake strengthens the possibility that extraterrestrial life might exist on planets such as Mars and moons such as Jupiter’s Europa.

Lake Vanda is somewhat a solar collector and is warmer on the bottom.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Vanda
Quote:

Lake Vanda is a lake in Wright Valley, Victoria Land, Ross Dependency, Antarctica. The lake is 5 km (3.1 mi) long and has a maximum depth of 69 m (226 ft). On its shore, New Zealand maintained Vanda Station from 1968 to 1995. At depths of greater than approximately 50 meters, Lake Vanda is a … See more

Quote:

Lake Vanda is a hypersaline lake with a salinity more than ten times that of seawater[4] and more than the salinity of the Dead Sea. Lake Vanda is also meromictic, which means that the deeper waters of the lake don't mix with the shallower waters.[5] There are three distinct layers of water ranging in temperature from 23 °C (73 °F) on the bottom to the middle layer of 7 °C (45 °F) and the upper layer ranges from 4–6 °C (39–43 °F).

Quote:

While no species of fish live in Lake Vanda or the Onyx River, microscopic life, such as cyanobacteria algal blooms, have been recorded. Due to the concerns over impact to the natural environment that may occur during research, scientific diving operations are limited to work in the upper layer (above 30 metres (98 ft)) and remotely operated underwater vehicle use is not allowed.[6]

I make note that if algae can grow in the water then perhaps adding Oxygen and Acetate to the water would support them even without light.  Here we go again with the growing plants in the dark discovery: https://www.nationalgeographic.co.uk/sc … lectricity.  Quote:

The research shows it is possible to grow algae, edible yeast, and mushroom-producing fungi in the dark by nourishing them with a carbon-based compound called acetate that didn’t originate from plants, but instead was manufactured using solar electricity.

 

I will say that I think that the metabolism of the algae or yeast will also release heat into the water.

I also recall Lake Bonney: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Bonney_(Antarctica)

Now, about solar ponds: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_pond
Quote:

A solar pond is a pool of saltwater which collects and stores solar thermal energy. The saltwater naturally forms a vertical salinity gradient also known as a "halocline", in which low-salinity water floats on top of high-salinity water. The layers of salt solutions increase in concentration (and therefore density) with depth. Below a certain depth, the solution has a uniformly high salt concentration.

Quote:

This greatly reduces heat loss, and allows for the high-salinity water to get up to 90 °C while maintaining 30 °C low-salinity water.[1] This hot, salty water can then be pumped away for use in electricity generation, through a turbine or as a source of thermal energy.

So, now I say that if you had an enclosure at the bottom of these ponds you could have energy storage in hot bricks, if it was air filled.

Leakage heat would go into the lower layers of water, and the water at the bottom might be as warm as 90 degrees C, but that how might not be desired if you want to allow divers to travel in the water.

As far as nuclear reactors go, I would say that you may only want hot water generators to help heat the water of the lake on the bottom.

Originally, I used to think of these lakes manufactured on Mars to be directly solar through the ice, but I think it would generally be easier to not do that, but to have an opaque cover over the ice of them which would not need much maintenance and would protect the ice from evaporation.

This is especially true as we now think that we could grow algae and yeast in the water, using Oxygen and Acetate.

While the lower water of Lake Vanda is anoxic, but warm, in our lakes that could be built the lower waters can be Oxygenated and warm.

The heat of the water persists though the winter in Lake Vanda, so we could expect the same on Mars, I think.

Using solar panels as radiators, would help ward off CO2 ice, and would allow access to the very deep cold of the Martian high latitude winters.

The bottom water of the lakes would be very salty, and I expect very corrosive, but I think that habitats could be built in the water, and also in rock below the lakes.

For instance, if the lake covered a patch of volcanic ash or sandstone that was well cemented, habitat could be carved into the rock below the Lake, and it would be about as warm as the bottom of the lake, year around.  Corrosion would not be as big a problem doing that.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-02-06 21:31:17)


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