Manned Missions To Callisto and Titan - Looking Beyond Manned Missions To Mars

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-08-16 17:44:02

Going to Pluto, Uranus, Neptune the Moon of Saturn Titan or Europa a Moon of Jupiter will take time.

More than 2 years to Mars, the Mars oppositions happen about every 26 months.

These NASA technologies will deliver us to Mars
https://insights.globalspec.com/article … us-to-mars
From powerful rockets to nanotechnology

The US government is taking a serious step toward space-based nuclear propulsion
https://arstechnica.com/space/2023/07/n … our-years/
"NASA is looking to go to Mars with this system."

Four years from now, if all goes well, a nuclear-powered rocket engine will launch into space for the first time. The rocket itself will be conventional, but the payload boosted into orbit will be a different matter.

Is THIS the key to getting to Mars quicker?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech … lanet.html
NASA and DARPA are working on a nuclear rocket that could take humans to Mars much faster - dramatically reducing the current seven-month journey

DARPA and NASA had first hoped to launch the NTR by 2027, but have since moved that target launch window forward to as early as 2025.

Nasa gives update on first crewed moon mission in more than 50 years
https://www.independent.co.uk/space/nas … 89738.html

New Class of Bimodal NTP/NEP with a Wave Rotor Topping Cycle Enabling Fast Transit to Mars
https://www.nasa.gov/directorates/space … f_Bimodal/

'China is considering a nuclear-powered mission to Neptune'
https://phys.org/news/2022-07-china-nuc … ptune.html

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-08-17 06:45:00)

Oldfart1939 · 2023-08-19 09:53:46

One other possibility for the Jovian moon missions is a departure from a Mars colony. In that case, the total travel time to Callisto would be reduced to a more reasonable level. Nuclear Thermal propulsion departing from Mars orbit coupled with nuclear electric thrusters could conceivably reduce the travel time to maybe a 2 year journey there and a similar return voyage? This would necessitate a very large spacecraft to bring along enough food, water, and oxygen. A larger crew would be required in order to maintain something of a social network for combatting psychological issues.

tahanson43206 · 2023-08-19 16:12:31

For Oldfart1939 re #27

First, nice to see you back after the recent unscheduled outage!

Second, your post is a nice segway to RobertDyck's "Large Ship"

It is possible you've looked at some of the posts in that topic, but I'm guessing not because otherwise you would have mentioned it.

The ship RobertDyck is designing has a nominal capacity of 1060 for a two year flight. It does not have to carry that many people and for an expedition of five years I would expect it to have a few hundred folks at most. It provides Mars gravity and Mars standard atmosphere, and numerous amenities for a comfortable stay in a mobile hotel.

(th)

Void · 2023-08-19 21:23:14

Oldfart1939,

Quote:

One other possibility for the Jovian moon missions is a departure from a Mars colony. In that case, the total travel time to Callisto would be reduced to a more reasonable level. Nuclear Thermal propulsion departing from Mars orbit coupled with nuclear electric thrusters could conceivably reduce the travel time to maybe a 2 year journey there and a similar return voyage? This would necessitate a very large spacecraft to bring along enough food, water, and oxygen. A larger crew would be required in order to maintain something of a social network for combatting psychological issues.

I am also glad to see you here again.

That makes sense to me having a similar capability could also get us to larger Outer Asteroid Belt objects.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-19 21:25:23)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-08-20 03:59:40

Setting up a supply route with departure Asteroids or from a Mars colony seems like a very logical step. Also perhaps nations or space agency would consider use of the Lagrange points and to set up a solar system wide communication system could be done during a study of Jupiter Trojans. Perhaps a reactor would be parked on an Asteroid or Satellite in Orbit of an Asteroid or maybe as a spot to relay communication, setting up an interconnected e-mail and radio as Jupiter is on the opposite side of the Sun. It is thought you can make plastics at these Asteroids, rich in Tholins or Hydrocarbons as speculated when New Horizons studied another body 'Arrokoth'. The Trojan Asteroids might be more Comet like than Irony Asteroids, they are in orbit at Jupiter's stable Lagrange points: either L4, existing 60° ahead of the planet in its orbit, or L5, 60° behind. I know JWST makes great pretty pictures that show it can to more stunning images than Hubble but perhaps using JWST Spectroscopy to study these Asteroids would be of great help to future colonization of the Solar system, some of the Trojans families were found in the early 1900s from telescope on Earth and somehow JWST even managed to study Jupiter even though it was thought to be 'Too Bright' so the Torjans should be well within the abilities of JWST, the Asteroid 'Hektor' is the largest 225 km or 139.8 miles in Diameter, the Asteroids might contain anhydrous silicates, or possibly compositions with water ice, there is speculation of the presence of organics in these Asteroids, they might be closer to the composition to Comets or they may have magnesium-rich silicates, they are an unknown as of today but the Trojans could help support the Jupiter system.

There was a 'madness' Ballistic Trajectory of 840 days

https://web.archive.org/web/20211009031 … ectory.pdf

'Juno' is currently in orbit and soon there will be both a ESA and NASA mission en-route, both dedicated to study of the Moons. We have a number of Jupiter/Galilean-satellite threads on newmars

Spacedaily had an interesting article

The Road to Jupiter: Two decades of trajectory optimization
https://www.spacedaily.com/reports/The_ … n_999.html

The intricate multi-body dynamic environment stemming from Jupiter and its four prominent Galilean moons complicates trajectory design and optimization. Coupled with the formidable radiation surrounding Jupiter and spacecraft's limited fuel, these challenges necessitate advanced and intricate design solutions.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-08-21 19:14:51)

Void · 2023-08-20 11:51:01

I don't want to offend the "Old Guard" by taking over this thread. I kind of am thinking of Pykrete for places 3 AU or more.

I may discuss that more in Terraforming.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-20 12:34:01)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-10-07 06:10:14

Mars, Moon, Callisto or Jupiter?

China's three streams of lunar and deep space exploration programs in the next 3 decades.

https://twitter.com/CNSpaceflight/statu … 9942866019

Also 'Mars Research Station' and Tianwen-X for Uranus or Neptune?

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-11-27 07:42:27

Flying in Titan's atmosphere and Landing Truck sized payloads on worlds like Titan or Europa?

Watch this Jupiter moon lander handle harsh terrain it may face on Europa
https://news.yahoo.com/watch-jupiter-mo … 01436.html

NASA Tests a Prototype Europa Lander
https://www.viva.co.id/english/1659877- … opa-lander

Dragonfly Team Debuts Johns Hopkins APL’s Newest Environmental Test Chamber
https://www.jhuapl.edu/news/news-releas … an-chamber

'Our Moon Isn't The Only Moon'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o33NZIlfKys

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-11-27 07:44:55)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-11-28 14:34:56

At the OPAG meeting just now, NASA's Lori Glaze confirms that ongoing budget uncertainty has pushed back the confirmation of the Dragonfly mission to Titan until after the release of the FY25 President's Budget Request in mid-2024.
https://twitter.com/theplanetaryguy/sta … 8821562565
NASA estimates a new launch date of July 2028.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-12-01 13:54:28

it could go in one of the Oceans Explored - but why not colonized topics

'Should We Send Humans to Europa?'
https://www.universetoday.com/164586/sh … to-europa/

Universe Today recently examined the potential for sending humans to the planet Venus despite its extremely harsh surface conditions. But while a human mission to the clouds of Venus could be feasible given the environmental conditions are much more Earth-like, a human mission to the second planet from the Sun could be (at minimum) decades away. With NASA sending humans back to the Moon in the next few years, and hopefully to Mars, what if we could send humans to another planetary body worth exploring, though it could have its own harsh environmental conditions, as well? What about Jupiter’s icy moon, Europa? It has a massive interior liquid ocean that could harbor life, and NASA is currently scheduled to launch its Europa Clipper spacecraft to this small moon in October 2024, arriving at Jupiter in April 2030. Therefore, given the exploration potential, should we send humans to Europa?

Europa Clipper: NASA’s Incredible Hunt for Alien Life, Simon Whistler an English social media science and history personality who currently resides in Prague in the Czech Republic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV0oX49guT4

Titan Touchdown
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msiLWxDayuA
NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory

It is now reported a China Callisto orbiter might be called Tianwen-4 formerly known as Gan De, a planned interplanetary mission by China to study the Jovian system but it might be two spacecraft one which will make a flyby of a planet of the outer Solar System

Gan De: Science Objectives and Mission Scenarios For China’s Mission to the Jupiter System
https://meetingorganizer.copernicus.org … 20179.html

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-12-01 14:11:33)

Calliban · 2023-12-13 19:09:06

Human cold tolerance. Something to think about as we head out towards the colder parts of the solar system.
https://maoi.org/blog/whats-the-coldest … n-survive/

With proper clothing and preparedness, human beings can survive temperatures as low as -50°C for limited periods. This assumes exposure to Earth's atmosphere with an indeterminate amount of wind chill. The key word is 'survive'. Expecting people to work in those conditions without heated garments is expecting too much.

It may one day be possible to terraform Jupiter's large icy moons. But even if given a breathable oxygen atmosphere, they would remain deathly cold, in the region of -100°C. A dry and thinner atmosphere would assist heat retention. Aerogel insulated clothing would help as well. But heated clothing would be needed if humans are to work in those temperatures. We need suits that can generate heat through chemical reactions. Maybe a radiothermal generator would help as well.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-12-13 19:16:42)

Oldfart1939 · 2023-12-23 20:42:30

Calliban wrote:

Human cold tolerance. Something to think about as we head out towards the colder parts of the solar system.
https://maoi.org/blog/whats-the-coldest … n-survive/
With proper clothing and preparedness, human beings can survive temperatures as low as -50°C for limited periods. This assumes exposure to Earth's atmosphere with an indeterminate amount of wind chill. The key word is 'survive'. Expecting people to work in those conditions without heated garments is expecting too much.
.

I wouldn't expect anyone to be doing "grunt labor" on Callisto, but operating a climate controlled vehicle with robotics capability on the surface would seem possible. This is simply too far out from the Sun to even consider using solar power, so some form of nuclear is going to take center stage. It would seem to me that this could be a great base for a deep space optical telescope for study of the outer planets of Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, and yes, Pluto. The moon is tidally locked, so the glare from Jupiter would be minimal and a permanent observatory would be a great way to spend 4 years of graduate study in planetary astronomy.

Last edited by Oldfart1939 (2023-12-23 20:43:40)

Oldfart1939 · 2023-12-23 22:53:00

I found this video on YouTube about Callisto; I don't agree with it 100%, but it's dated and was posted 3 years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddMiC2lY-OM

RGClark · 2023-12-24 00:24:26

Manned missions to Callisto at less than 2 year travel time using chemical propulsion only are explored by this author:

https://x.com/bellikozan/status/1718725 … 48101?s=61

Bob Clark

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-12-25 11:04:19

Jupiter capture 2035 & a Uranus flyby in March 2045, the mission perhaps includes 2 probes flying together at first, one at Jupiter seems to shoot something
天问四 - Taiwen-4 or it would literally translate as 'Heavenly Questions Four'
it seems to be two missions, one mission will be firing some type of penetration missile at a Moon maybe Ganymede, the text mentions the orbit of Ganymede but other news articles said they would target maybe Callisto

The Mars Rover which seems to have fallen to dust was part of China's 'Tianwen-1' mission

'年' is the symbol they use for 'year' and 月 means Moon/Month

I assume they are using Nuclear Power

https://m.weibo.cn/detail/4981873545839714

They have also posted images and videos in the past of a Lunar mission, the Moon orbiter shooting something at a hidden lava tube to then expose a hole / cave with its impact, its not the first time they considered crashing something into another body.

This is an article from 2022

China's Tianwen 4 to target Jupiter and Uranus with two spacecraft on one rocket
https://interestingengineering.com/inno … one-rocket

There are reports 'Tianwen-3' will probably come before this Tianwen 4 mission, and be part of a planned Mars sample-return mission

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-12-25 11:08:23)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-12-30 14:13:57

Astrobiology eXploration at Enceladus (AXE): A New Frontiers Mission Concept Study

https://astrobiology.com/2023/12/astrob … study.html

Oldfart1939 · 2024-02-05 01:00:36

IMHO, Callisto will possible be the first deep space mission goal for missions departing from Mars; possibly concurrent with a mission to Ceres, or another large asteroid or "dwarf planet." One large spacecraft could "do" both Ganymede AND Callisto in a single mission?

Void · 2024-02-05 10:46:05

Hi OF. Callisto might be a good source of Ammonia, I hope, that of course having Nitrogen in it.

Done

Oldfart1939 · 2024-02-05 10:52:43

Callisto and Ganymede both have very tenuous atmospheres, and Ganymede has a magnetosphere. The atmospheres are both thought to be primarily CO2, and are also thought to have a subsurface ocean of water. These features are helpful for any long-term visits to these bodies. They are tidally locked to Jupiter.

Last edited by Oldfart1939 (2024-02-05 10:54:40)

Void · 2024-02-05 20:53:50

It is so good to see you back here again OF.

I agree those worlds are of interest. The radiation problem is not beyond considering for either of them. The magnetic field of Jupiter is both a Deamon and perhaps an Angel. We might consider supplemental magnetic fields for each to improve things eventually.

Callisto may have Carbonaceous materials on or near it surface so there is some hope of Nitrogen. Both moons may have Nitrogen compounds lower down in its ice layers as well.

Frankly I am just now contemplating extraction of matter from these moons to also build habitats with synthetic gravity. They have a lot of water, and that is very good for dealing with radiation.

I am wondering if the magnetic field of Jupiter and Saturn have a sweet spot where synthetic gravity habitats may have protection from the sun and GCR and not be subjected to the harsh side of Jupiter's magnetic field.

I am tempted to be bold and ponder a situation where somehow IO is worked with. It could be a giant power supply. Could such power be directed to a protective magnetic field for IO? It would have to be something really fabulously strong.

Ice could be delivered from the other moons to give it water. It is a very unfriendly place but so much power! This is how a human became more than an animal, to cross the boundary, and make a vast power possible to harness. It would be like finding a way to ride a horse, rather than to just kill and eat it. Maybe much more than that.

If successful, then power could be beamed to the other moons and also free floating created habitats.

Well, yes, I don't mind a bit of struggle for a good cause.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-02-05 21:04:24)

Oldfart1939 · 2024-03-18 22:29:11

I'm gonna set up a new Callisto thread for updates on the most distant from the host planet of the 4 Galilean satellites. It's the only practical place from a radiation survivability standpoint.

Last edited by Oldfart1939 (2024-03-19 21:45:59)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-03-31 02:50:59

Saturn's moon Enceladus top target for ESA

https://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration … et_for_ESA

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-04-14 02:20:35

a question asked on stackexchange

'Are there any known atmospheres that would support traditional combustion engines'?

https://space.stackexchange.com/questio … ion-engine

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#26 2023-08-16 17:44:02

Re: Manned Missions To Callisto and Titan - Looking Beyond Manned Missions To Mars

#27 2023-08-19 09:53:46

Re: Manned Missions To Callisto and Titan - Looking Beyond Manned Missions To Mars

#28 2023-08-19 16:12:31

Re: Manned Missions To Callisto and Titan - Looking Beyond Manned Missions To Mars

#29 2023-08-19 21:23:14

Re: Manned Missions To Callisto and Titan - Looking Beyond Manned Missions To Mars

#30 2023-08-20 03:59:40

Re: Manned Missions To Callisto and Titan - Looking Beyond Manned Missions To Mars

#31 2023-08-20 11:51:01

Re: Manned Missions To Callisto and Titan - Looking Beyond Manned Missions To Mars

#32 2023-10-07 06:10:14

Re: Manned Missions To Callisto and Titan - Looking Beyond Manned Missions To Mars

#33 2023-11-27 07:42:27

Re: Manned Missions To Callisto and Titan - Looking Beyond Manned Missions To Mars

#34 2023-11-28 14:34:56

Re: Manned Missions To Callisto and Titan - Looking Beyond Manned Missions To Mars

#35 2023-12-01 13:54:28

Re: Manned Missions To Callisto and Titan - Looking Beyond Manned Missions To Mars

#36 2023-12-13 19:09:06

Re: Manned Missions To Callisto and Titan - Looking Beyond Manned Missions To Mars

#37 2023-12-23 20:42:30

Re: Manned Missions To Callisto and Titan - Looking Beyond Manned Missions To Mars

#38 2023-12-23 22:53:00

Re: Manned Missions To Callisto and Titan - Looking Beyond Manned Missions To Mars

#39 2023-12-24 00:24:26

Re: Manned Missions To Callisto and Titan - Looking Beyond Manned Missions To Mars

#40 2023-12-25 11:04:19

Re: Manned Missions To Callisto and Titan - Looking Beyond Manned Missions To Mars

#41 2023-12-30 14:13:57

Re: Manned Missions To Callisto and Titan - Looking Beyond Manned Missions To Mars

#42 2024-02-05 01:00:36

Re: Manned Missions To Callisto and Titan - Looking Beyond Manned Missions To Mars

#43 2024-02-05 10:46:05

Re: Manned Missions To Callisto and Titan - Looking Beyond Manned Missions To Mars

#44 2024-02-05 10:52:43

Re: Manned Missions To Callisto and Titan - Looking Beyond Manned Missions To Mars

#45 2024-02-05 20:53:50

Re: Manned Missions To Callisto and Titan - Looking Beyond Manned Missions To Mars

#46 2024-03-18 22:29:11

Re: Manned Missions To Callisto and Titan - Looking Beyond Manned Missions To Mars

#47 2024-03-31 02:50:59

Re: Manned Missions To Callisto and Titan - Looking Beyond Manned Missions To Mars

#48 2024-04-14 02:20:35

Re: Manned Missions To Callisto and Titan - Looking Beyond Manned Missions To Mars

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