Minimal Martian Terraformed Atmospheres

Void · 2024-01-08 09:45:26

No one else has ventured to respond so far, so I will. That is interesting. I see Mars as eventually being better than Earth in many ways because it can be controlled, throttled. Earth is covered with open water in a major way, which is good in its way, but Mars can be good in a different way.

Towards the equator we generally have dry wastelands, and at higher latitudes generally dirt covered icy wastelands. (From a certain point of view, wastelands).

I was happy to see that in their thinking they have considered water vapor and clouds effects.

But I think that their calculations may only include natural sunlight as an input of energy. Of course, various types of nuclear may become major additional inputs, and I am going to suggest that orbital energy may also become an input.

Something I would like to promote is orbital "Greenhouses" where the buildup of heat is radiated to the universe, creating electrical energy somehow. An obvious but not yet very efficient method would be to line part of the exterior of such greenhouses with Anti-Solar Cells. Then the greenhouses might export microwave energy to Mars.

Doing this may alter the solar input of energy to Mars to include natural + unnatural inputs.

Greenhouses will leak, so I am concerned about those losses. Special methods might reduce the rate of loss, but I feel that a strong magnetic field created for Mars that extends far out may help to reduce them, that and the gravitational field of Mars. The hope would be that the magnetic field would keep the solar wind out and that the gravitational field of Mars would recapture leakage to the Martian atmosphere.

But for Mars, I think ice melting would be desired to be controlled. it is quite possible to have vegetation and crops that can grow on top of permafrost. And then for the low latitudes it should be reasonable to have aqueducts/canals to move water down to them for use.

A honeycomb of tunnels in the permafrost at high latitudes could be reasonable places to do some types of robotic industrial activities.

Anyway I suggest what I have suggested. Those who will be there may do as they like.

But I think the amount of greenhouse gasses needed will be reduced if the energy inputs to Mars are increased.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-08 09:58:12)

Calliban · 2024-01-08 11:30:44

Orbital energy is in many ways more promissing on Mars than on Earth. A Martian space elevator can be made from conventional carbon fibre ropes. This means that a Martian SPS can transmit power to the surface using HV DC cables. No need for microwaves. Cables would have to be angled such that they miss the orbit of Phobos.

Ultimately, a heavily developed Mars could construct a complete orbital ring structure at geostationary point, some 17,038km above the equatorial surface. Solar powerplants could be tethered to the ring, allowing them to generate power 90% of the time and send that power to Mars surface by cable. Human habitats could also be tethered to the ring. Eventually, Mars orbital space would become one of the best locations in the solar system.

The circumference of aerostationary orbit is 128,350km. The mass of Phobos is 1.07E16kg. If Phobos is fully deconstructed, it will provide some 83 million tonnes of construction material per kilometre of ring circumference. That is more than enough to build an extensive ring structure all around Mars, with enough SPS infrastructure to power the planet many times over. I think the population of Mars could ultimately greatly exceed that of Earth. Many of those people would no doubt live in orbit. But getting between the ring and the surface of Mars would be much easier than attempting the same thing on Earth.

Last edited by Calliban (2024-01-08 11:40:22)

Void · 2024-01-08 12:23:48

That is an exciting vision of a Future Mars.

I am following some apparent robot experts on Utube. They seem to think that Humanoid Robots are having their I-Phone moment, where everything needed is emerging.

I do not think it would be inhuman to make robot quarters underground in ice tubes. They may even have infrared vision. The point is we may see serious deflation in the cost of manufactured goods, on Earth and Mars.

Even with rockets, before space elevators, there could be a lot done in orbits of Mars.

An interesting additional note to using Phobos to make structure is the inventory of Mars Crossing asteroids: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_M … or_planets

It does not matter if they are stony, as Mars has plenty of what they lack.

Solar propulsion methods might be used to move payloads from these to orbits of Mars. In some cases Ballistic Capture would allow arrival without aerocapture, but also for Mars although said to be difficult payloads might also be aero captured to orbit.

Some of these might be converted to some kind of cycler as well, and in some cases asteroids that endanger an inhabited planet could be put into control.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-08 12:43:19)

Calliban · 2024-01-19 08:45:53

Most super greenhouse gases are based on flourine. But not this one. Carbon tetrachloride is listed as greenhouse gas with a GWP of 1730.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_gas

This is somewhat lower than SF6. But chlorine is an abundant compound, whereas flourine is rare in the solar system. So carbon tetrachloride is something that could be made from basic regolith on Mars, without the need to locate concentrated flourite minerals which may not exist.

Void · 2024-01-19 10:07:01

Tell me if you don't want this intrusion please:

Thanks for bringing this up Calliban.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_tetrachloride
Quote:

Carbon tetrachloride, also known by many other names (such as carbon tet for short and tetrachloromethane, also recognised by the IUPAC) is a chemical compound with the chemical formula CCl4. It is a non-flammable, dense, colourless liquid with a "sweet" chloroform-like odour that can be detected at low levels.

Concerns I have for many super greenhouse gasses is that they may condense out on the ice caps. But like water vapor the atmosphere will allow some dissolved content of the gas, like water provides some relative humidity to the Martian atmosphere even when cold.

I recall Carl Sagan saying that the reason that the Venus greenhouse works so well is that there are a combination of substances that hold in various wavelengths. So, I am likely to think that if we can get a combination it may deliver more results for the efforts expended.

CO2 is already covered of course and maybe Nitrogen and Argon of course.

Other possibilities are Methane, Nitrous Oxide, and water Vapor. Water vapor of course would need to be injected into the higher atmosphere to prevent it from condensing out. Also nucleation dust in that higher atmosphere would help regulate the condensation process of it. UV light would break it down.

But a combination of methods along with your Carbon tetrachloride might achieve some results.

One result I am concerned with is dust storms. Do we stimulate them or suppress them by injecting greenhouse gasses to the atmosphere.
Two factors I can think of are air pressure needed to carry the dust, and differential planetary temperatures needed to drive the winds that would drive the dust.

I believe that on Earth, the poles are heated more by greenhouse gasses than the equator, but I suspect that low altitudes are also heated more than higher altitudes, as per thickness of the greenhouse gases. That altitude speculation I am not sure of.

Hellas seems to be the culprit in initiating big dust storms about every 3 years on Mars.

Query: "Hallas depression on Mars and dust storms"
Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Hallas+de … 1C&pc=U531

https://www.nasa.gov/solar-system/the-f … st-storms/
Quote:

Larger storms typically only happen during summer in Mars’ southern hemisphere. Seasons on Mars are caused by the tilt of the planet, like on Earth. But Mars’ orbit is less circular than Earth’s; for part of a Martian year, the planet is closer to the sun and therefore significantly hotter. This warmer time is during the southern hemisphere’s summer, so radiative heat forces are strongest then. Once started, bigger storms can last weeks to months.

So, this suggests that the Northern Hemisphere may have less dust storm trouble.

https://airandspace.si.edu/air-and-spac … ust-storms
Image Quote: 21H_SPRING2022_SightingsMartianBowl-MFF1_LIVE.jpg?itok=CIP8QCu5
Quote:

The sand looks like an ocean in this contrasted infrared-color image of the Medusa Fossae Formation, which is believed to be the largest source of dust on Mars.

When this formation erupted, it may have changed the Martian climate path, I think by distributing dust that might have covered up ice. (Maybe).

Calliban, if you dislike this, or feel that I have hijacked your activities please indicate so. I will behave differently if you like.

One thing I have read about dusty planets is that they might be a little warmer, as the halo of atmosphere on the terminator of sunlight would then present a larger surface area of absorption of sunlight. So some dust may help keep Mars warm. Too much would then block light from reaching the lower atmosphere.

So, I recall (th) thinking about capturing dust.

Pause.................

I propose mechanical Greek warrior robots to deal with dust and also albedo.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedes%27_heat_ray
Quote:

Archimedes' heat ray
Archimedes' heat ray is a device that Archimedes is purported to have used to burn attacking Roman ships during the Siege of Syracuse (c. 213–212 BC). It does not appear in the surviving works of Archimedes and is described by historians writing many years after the siege.

Image Quote:
Quote:

Archimedes may have used mirrors acting collectively as a parabolic reflector to burn ships attacking Syracuse.

Quote:

A test of the Archimedes heat ray was carried out in 1973 by the Greek scientist Ioannis Sakkas. The experiment took place at the Skaramagas naval base outside Athens. On this occasion, 70 mirrors were held up by Greek sailors, each with a copper coating and a size of around five by three feet (1.5 by 1 m). The mirrors were pointed at a plywood mock-up of a Roman warship at a distance of around 160 feet (50 m). When the mirrors were focused accurately, the ship burst into flames within a few seconds. The plywood ship had a coating of tar paint. Sakkas said after the experiment there was no doubt in his mind the great inventor could have used bronze mirrors to scuttle the Romans.[4][5]

Some may think it a myth, but it does not matter the method may well be suitable.

But to pay for a hoard of robotic Greek warriors, they will have to do productive labor.
Activities they may do is to help collect useful energy from solar and the cold of night.
Also, maybe help collect water to lower latitudes.

Also, at times they may disengage from holding shield mirrors and may do other work.

A very big task would be to regulate dust distribution into the atmosphere.

Without vegetation, dust is not very well opposed from distributing into the atmosphere.

So, if the robots are busy modifying a local climate such as Hellas, they may also help to make dust collect into dunes that are stabilized.

Wind fences: https://www.epa.gov/system/files/docume … fences.pdf
Quote:

Description
Wind fences (also called sand fences) are barriers made
of permeable fabric or small, evenly spaced wooden
slats. Construction staff erect wind fences to reduce
wind velocity and to trap blowing sand. Wind fences can
also serve as perimeter controls around open
construction sites to keep the wind from blowing
sediments off-site. In doing so, they prevent off-site
damage to roads, streams and adjacent properties. The
spaces between the fence slats allow wind to pass
through but reduce its speed, causing sediment to
deposit along the fence.

So, if we are to capture lots of solar energy with our Greek Robots, then we may want radiators. Perhaps our fences can double as radiators.

This may relate to what I have in mind: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 25#p218525
Quote:

I have this this morning, inspired by Korolev Crater:
Korolev Crater naturally has these components.
Near the equator on Martian nights, high humidities occur. If a surface was shaded well enough, then it might get cool enough. Perhaps this would be done in the warmer parts of the temperate zone.
And it is worth noting that not only would we hope to gather water frost, but to concentrate energy to the target.
There may be many existing craters where this might be tried.
At the very least you might get a collection of cold humid air in the bottom of the crater and then compress it to collect the water in it as vapors.
This last version might work in equatorial craters.
Here is a reference: https://www.space.com/16907-what-is-the … mperatures. Quote:
According to Rummel, the humidity of Mars is tied to temperature fluctuations. At night, relative humidity levels can rise to 80 to 100 percent, with the air sometimes reaching atmospheric saturation. The daytime air is far drier, due to warmer temperatures.
So, that sounds possible to accomplish, to me.
Gale Crater: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gale_(crater)
Image Quote: Quote:
Colorized shaded relief map of the crater Gale. The general landing area for Curiosity on the northwestern crater floor, named Aeolis Palus, is circled. (HRSC data)
Done

Hellas would not be the only place to do this, but it is a rather good one.

Probably in winter the robots would position their heliostat shields vertical and go into protected locations to do other work.
In other seasons they may assist in the collection of energy by repositioning their heliostat shields to assist in the collection of energy.

The hazards of winter CO2 accumulation may be tolerable if the shields are strait up. Also, that may reduce the accumulation of dust.
As dust is accumulated the robots may have to jack the mirror shields up to a new position(s).

Energy might be stored seasonally and for shorter durations using various means, perhaps including fracked wells.
Cleaning mirrors may involve CO2 as per concepts related from kdb512. Also other methods may be needed.

The interception of sunlight into energy storage systems should shade the ground in the warm seasons and reduce warming. The shields pointed up in the cold season should open the ground to the cold of the universe. This may make the ground at the bottom of Hellas competitive with the polar ice caps to accumulate water frost and perhaps CO2 frost. Such frost may help stabilize the dunes as well, and of course water is wanted.

Hang Ten Greek Robots!
https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE

Walk, don't run!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/w … r-AA1lpYPI

Done

And then this might be done: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 77#p218577
Quote:

Here is this again, a very good achievement, it seems: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/news/ne … i-BB1gX5W0
Quote:
New Material Harnesses Wasted Light to Make Solar Panels More Efficient
Scientists have developed a glass-ceramic material that can convert ultraviolet light
Done

The mirrors may be pointed to solar panels and both electricity and heat drawn from them, or you may have just thermal collectors, maybe turbines and so on.

Carbon tetrachloride may damage Ozone, which it seems now might be a good thing on Mars.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-19 11:36:21)

SpaceNut · 2024-01-20 08:05:26

Just how much atmosphere is required to be produced is the question as we know that the current level is a barren surfaced world.

One method for getting complex materials to build an atmosphere is to use electrical voltage Experimental investigation of Breakdown voltage of CO2, N2 and SF6 gases, and CO2-SF6 and N2–SF6 mixtures under different voltage waveforms

But a world that is bare of a thick magnetic field and thin atmosphere means the high intensity ogf UV will cause what we build to breakdown.

Calculate the carbon dioxide equivalent quantity of an F gas

Greenhouse Gas Equivalencies Calculator

As noted by Th that the drill we wanted to send w2ould be able to quantify the levels of water in the crator and would lead to a manned site capable of surviving on less energy required.

Void · 2024-01-20 09:10:44

Well, there will probably be a segmented Terra formation.
1) Learn to live in the existing environment. Profit from the UV if possible. UV holds significant energy.
2) If it is desired find methods to evaporate all of the CO2 that is in ice form, and to keep it evaporated. This would give a average pressure of somewhere around 11.5 mbar, which is about double what it is now. But that may cause climate changes on Mars, so the inhabitants would need to cope with that.

As for coping with the breakdown of greenhouse gasses, if you have enough robots and industrial and agricultural processes, some greenhouse gasses will occur as leakage or emissions from those processes, for instance Methane perhaps.

But with an almost infinite supply of robots, I think it will turn out to be possible to economically generate a lot of greenhouse gasses at a rate high enough to do the trick for #2.

3) Supposes some other method to increase the atmospheric pressure which is not confirmed to be possible/practical.

But then the title here is "Minimal Martian Terraformed Atmospheres".

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-20 09:15:12)

Calliban · 2024-01-26 20:55:53

Nanorods could warm Mars thousands of times more effectively than flourocarbons.
https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2024/01/w … -2050.html

This aerosol would result in an insane amount of radiative forcing. Putting 10 millions tonnes of this material into the Martian atmosphere, would warm the planet by 50-70K! What is more, the nanorods can be made from iron or aluminium. Abundant materials on Mars.

I wonder if this could be made to work in other places. The Jovian satellites? Titan?

Last edited by Calliban (2024-01-26 20:57:24)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-04-05 16:30:35

stack exchange discussion

'On what calculations is Robert Zubrin's assertion that Mars could be warmed by 10 ⁰ C in 50 years with fluorocarbon gases based?'

https://space.stackexchange.com/questio … armed-by-1

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#126 2024-01-08 09:45:26

Re: Minimal Martian Terraformed Atmospheres

#127 2024-01-08 11:30:44

Re: Minimal Martian Terraformed Atmospheres

#128 2024-01-08 12:23:48

Re: Minimal Martian Terraformed Atmospheres

#129 2024-01-19 08:45:53

Re: Minimal Martian Terraformed Atmospheres

#130 2024-01-19 10:07:01

Re: Minimal Martian Terraformed Atmospheres

#131 2024-01-20 08:05:26

Re: Minimal Martian Terraformed Atmospheres

#132 2024-01-20 09:10:44

Re: Minimal Martian Terraformed Atmospheres

#133 2024-01-26 20:55:53

Re: Minimal Martian Terraformed Atmospheres

#134 2024-04-05 16:30:35

Re: Minimal Martian Terraformed Atmospheres

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