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#1576 2024-01-11 13:37:59

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,291

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I am rather happy to suggest a mimic of Arctic Tundra Ponds as possibility of a basic place to grow things.

The Martian North Ice Slabs, perhaps have 3 categories.  South, where the danger is that if not handled properly, they may evaporate off.
Middle would be more stable and not have CO2 ice in the winter.  North would have CO2 Ice in the winter extremes.

Post #1563 gives some hope to make greenhouse enclosures: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 08#p218208

But solar equipment such as Heliostats may allow more light for such things.  Solar of various types could be used on the tops of these ice sheets.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-11 13:44:58)


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#1577 2024-01-11 19:23:11

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

What my hope for the materials under the ice sheets may be is something like this: https://phys.org/news/2021-11-analysis- … lanet.html  Image Quote: analysis-of-marss-wind.jpg

The possibility of hard layers and softer layers of rock.  If you could punch though a hard layer then you might create living spaces in the softer rock, well below the ice layer.

So, then it could be more easily warm, and the warmth might persist through a dust storm of 6 months or so.

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#1578 2024-01-13 13:30:38

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

This board has been quiet, that is not all bad.

I have problems with binary thinkers.  The "You've got to be a football hero type thinking".

The Romans use it against the naive quite successfully.  The Celts in France would buy their wine and take the members of other tribes captive to pay the Romas with slaves.  We should not be foolish like that.

I have thought in numbers like 3 and 6 but also 4.  Tesla supposedly liked 3, 6, and 9.

There is a good "West" and a bad "West".  The good west tries to invent new sources of wealth.  The bad west, can only feel rich if it make poor people to surround them.  I am not a fan of that game.

In my version of reality their are 6 realms, and of these 6, 4 have 6 flavors.  But each of the 4 regular realms are different from each other,  And the other two realms are different in yet another way.  Different from the 4, and also different from each other.

This then allows many realities to exist, each with potentials.

I am not a fan of binary thinking.

My doctor has advised me to consider meditation for my Blood Pressure problems.  I found this, which is meditative.  Many here will not like it for religious reasons.  But if we are going to find our proper way in western thinking, then I do not think that that is so likely to be found in eastern thinking, so maybe this can give a glimpse.

Obviously, we have problems in the west.  We seem to return again and again to the same mistakes.  So, try something.  Mediate, and maybe something will arrive inside of us.

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE

Perhaps imagine such chanting in the deep catacombs of Mars.

Little creatures in the North are benefited by the snow.  It can be a protection from the cruel reality of the deep winter.

This may be evident for ice shell moons also, it is speculated that such a shell may protect life.  That remains to be discovered, maybe.

And so if we see a partial ice shell on Mars, why do we want to shun it?

Mars does not generally have water at the base of this ice shell, and that is good, as we can make it be there if we might want to but we may very well choose not to do that in many cases.

Do you think of someone who works to make the world better, and yet the principalities of power seek to harm that one?

But I am not binary.  I am not against other things to do on Mars.  Those may be of value as well.

There are many more things also so possible on under and over Mars.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-13 17:36:33)


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#1579 2024-01-13 15:35:45

Void
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I have not particularly been a fan of Hyperloop, but consider that the circumference of Mars is ~1/2 that of Earth, and that A latitude location about that of Kansas is similar to that of Spain.

So, perhaps at maximum we may be thinking of a path that would be about 1/2 the length from Spain to the Arctic Ocean, maybe just a bit more.  And of course, such a thing does not need building in a single day.

Elon Musk has said that Hyperloop could be possible on Mars without a tunnel.  Hers is an article with some mention of it.
https://www.mapfre.com/en/insights/inno … nize-mars/

On Mars passages beneath ice and regolith could accommodate some type of transport method.  Many may be possible.  I am not sure that 1200 kph is needed though but it might become desired eventually.

So, you might connect a solar climate somewhat resembling Spain with one somewhat resembling the Northern Nordic areas with the midnight sun and (Midday night).

If I am to understand Hyperloop on Earth, then it is to have some liners, perhaps a bit like concrete.

And you must in many cases tunnel though solid rock.  But on Mars where ice sheets at least 40 meters deep with some regolith over them exist then you might simply drill through the ice, or melt though the ice or evaporate though the ice.  Then you could lay your tubing down for such a pathway, and then backfill, over the tube with regolith perhaps, the materials that you might get if you carve vaults from soft sedimentary rock or the regolith available around you.

There are many who think I am crazy to suggest canals also, but they should be possible on the grounding line, you may likely want a sort of arched covering over them.

You could in fact have parallel passageways not too far from each other.  A Hyperloop (In the far future), a water canal, a iceway where sleds might work or even carts, provided the ice was of a good surface.  You could resurface the ice relatively easy with water from the canal.  And then perhaps even walking and bikeways.

Those would be of a narrow circumference, and I suppose might have breathing gasses in them.

I imagine most find the notion silly, but if you have cities underground in the softer stones then pathways between them may be desired.

While solar power and space based solar power may well be desired, I would think that most major cities would have nuclear hearts.

As pathways are hollowed out under the ice water canals can make it possible to extend the ice sheets towards the equator.  Surely our technology could invent ways to create and protect from evaporation extensions of ice sheets.  Those extensions could then also have passageways inside of them.

Eventually the ice sheets of the North could have connections to those of the south.  And pathways might go down into Hellas and into the Mariner Rift Valley.  Mars is cold enough for this.  There would be ice deposits over the entire surface, if snow was possible at the Equator at a sufficient rate.

If the pessimists are right then the most average pressure that can be given to Mars with Terraforming is 11.5 mbar.

As far as greenhouses go, that is equivalent to approximately 23 mbar of warming from a Nitrogen/Oxygen mix.

It is said that it would take 1 bar of CO2 or 2 bar of N2/O2 mix to warm Mars as much as Earth is warm.  So, good luck getting that amount onto Mars any time soon.  What that means is that we need to figure out how to work with a cold Mars.

I think I have given some good suggestions.  I feel that it also will be come possible to build very big greenhouses that people could live in on the surface, eventually, but it would be good to have means to evacuate to locations below, when trouble shows up with that.

Given those options Mars may well be worth the effort.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-13 16:07:12)


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#1580 2024-01-13 17:09:14

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Some Bolonium included, but an interesting article: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=SH … ORM=WRVORC  Quote:

SHOCKING! Mars Curiosity Rover Just Spotted GOLD ON MARS!

But it seems that many believe that a large ocean existed once or maybe even twice on Mars.  Mars was probably still geothermally active then so there could have been minerals deposited by hydrothermal vents and other processes.  Much of these would be covered in ice slabs at this time.

While it might be good to make underground cities in soft rocks, I would also think that mineral deposits' mined would also create underground spaces for habitations.

So pathways might exist on the groundling line between mineral centers.  Craters are also cited as possible mineral builders and there could be some of those under the ices.  And of course volcano's.

But the thing about Mars is we don't think that water erosion continued at a early pace in later times, and there was no Plate Tectonics to reabsorb mineral deposits into the mantle and core.

And I will also suggest that many metal cores from broken planetesimals may have stayed near the surface of Mars because of a lack of Plate Tectonics.  But wind and water and volcanic sediments may have buried some of them.

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Last edited by Void (2024-01-13 17:17:56)


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#1581 2024-01-13 17:20:55

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

To make Mars very much more valuable it would be fantastic to have orbital infrastructure.  The planet is well suited to it as .38 g means that lifting from Mars to orbit should be relatively favored.  And then there is Phobos and Deimos.

Some interaction with the asteroid belt is probably practical.

And as for inner system asteroids, I really do think that using magnetic sailing they could be captured to Mars using Ballistic Capture.

I have enjoyed notions of orbital infrastructure including space elevators which Calliban has recently posted about.

But I wonder about something that may orbit under the path of Phobos, and yet may have a tether that could reach down into the Martian upper atmosphere. 

If you could siphon Mars atmosphere then you could have Nitrogen, Argon, Oxygen, and Carbon.  And of course materials from Martian moons, existing or created.

Beaming energy down to the surface of Mars could make it quite an industrial planet, and a platform for expanding into the solar system.

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#1582 2024-01-14 13:59:46

Void
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I have created this topic which could be of value here: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 12#p218412
Quote:

Biologically Cemented Bricks

The first instance I was aware of was bricks made using urea.

I have also found a company called Biomason

Here is a general response to the query of the topic: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Biologica … &form=QBRE 
Creating artificial sandstone is mentioned.

(If you query for Biobricks you will get bricks of compressed organic matter.)

I will want to suggest a possible recipe for use on Mars.

Biomason is interesting: https://biomason.com/
Video: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=VRDGAR
https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=VRDGAR
I am very impressed with Biomasons work.

But I think I need to mention the Urea bricks also to be more complete:
Video: https://www.facebook.com/NowThisFuture/ … 220704450/

Some of the biobricks I have read of need gelatin to hole the aggregate together.  I don't want that.

We do seem to have this advantage from the start: https://www.popsci.com/mars-soil-bricks/
Quote:

Bricks made from fake Martian soil are surprisingly strong
But can they build our future outpost on the red planet?

BY SARAH FECHT | PUBLISHED APR 27, 2017 5:00 PM EDT

Image Quote: ZSKFUAWWFOEFRHPL6VP76UABWA.jpg?auto=webp&optimize=high&width=1440
Martian soils seem to have some Perchlorate in them, some of that is Calcium Perchlorate.
So, what if something like sugar or even better Carbon is mixed into the soil before compressing.  Then you have a fuel and an Oxidizer.  Maybe some Nitrogen source such as a bit of Urea.

I suppose you could add moisture to the mix and maybe it would be done.

But what if you immersed the compressed bricks into a thick Hydrogen atmosphere?  Perhaps a mix of Nitrogen and Hydrogen, if the microbes can fix their own Nitrogen.

Some microbes can eat/breath perchlorate, here is one: https://www.livescience.com/28444-ancie … -fuel.html

While Sugar or Carbon could be in the mix as fuel, the Hydrogen in the atmosphere of the treatment chamber may intrude into the compressed bricks, Hydrogen being very small it should do so.

Some organisms can eat Hydrogen from the Earth's atmosphere, and so get energy to grow, but they also get water that way by Oxidizing the Hydrogen into H20.  Such organisms live all over the world, even in the most harsh parts of Antarctica, as they can get energy and water from the atmosphere.  Her is mention of such a thing: https://news.mit.edu/2020/study-life-hy … %20methane.  Antarctica: https://theconversation.com/antarctic-b … uel-171808

So, that would be the hope.  You could cast compressed bricks of some shape and then use biology to make the bricks much more durable.

Since it would not be a hot process, it may be possible to add fibers to this process, things like Hemp, Bamboo, plastics, metals.  This might give even more desired properties.

Done

So, one hope for this process if some form of it can be made to work would be to make big pipes under the ice, mostly on the grounding line, and to allow transport of vehicles, people, water, air and other things by such a method.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-14 14:02:06)


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#1583 2024-01-14 22:46:33

Void
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Posts: 7,291

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I think that it may turn out that "Civilizations" of the future will not turn down possible power sources.  Nuclear or Solar or space based or geothermal.

Where I have been strongly dealing with what would be under the ice and even under the regolith under the ice, I am also increasing interest in devices which could be above the regolith that covers the ice, and these devices may interact with sunlight.

Solar power and greenhouses.

In any case it probably will pay to have diversified sources of energy.  Not to be too specialized.  Generalization travels around with adaptability and capability, even if it is not always at peek efficiency.

As the environment above the ice slabs will have seasonal energy sometimes interrupted by dust storms, then a plan may be to store thermal energy underground, among other tricks.

I would guess that the bulk of "Greenhouses" will be low pressure, but also there may indeed be something resembling a glass dome, but really more like Dr. Johnsons Mushroom Houses.  In my case I would be looking to push photons into such through side windows of the structures using Heliostats.

These probably can be reasonably radiation protected.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-14 22:53:40)


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#1584 2024-01-15 10:37:25

Void
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Here is something in part derived from Dr. Johnsons Mushroom House: dYUQlA5.png

In the basic instance, I have water inside the enclosure (Darker Blue) which is at the melting point of water.

A block of protected ice or water (Spacenut) is on top to help hold pressure and to provide some radiation shielding.

A system of mirrors conveys photons into the interior and into the water.

The pressurization of "Air" above the water can be rather low, even approaching Martian ambient pressure.  But it could be higher as well if it was desired to make that effort and bear the costs.

Low Latitude sheets of ice at a latitude similar to Kansas or Spain, are said to have up to 40 Meters of ice.  Higher Latitude ice sheets have been named as 300 Meters deep.

I like to use a Martian foot of water as it equals about 10 mbar.

So, the 40>131 feet>1300 mbar
300>984 feet>9840 mbar

We probably want t6o work with 1/3 bar and 2/3 bar, really, so modifications of the diagram can be in order.

These are intended to be coarse calculation; precision is a handicap in preliminary works.

This is of course along with other functions a partial liquid airlock.

As the cost/benefits might determine other features and alterations can be added.

For instance curtains on the outside to cover the windows when not in use.

A transparent water containment may allow a warmer water temperature within it.  Such a bag may allow a layer of air above its water on the inside facilitating the farming of Duckweed perhaps.

I have suggested water at the triple point but just liquid.  Air compressors can pull water vapor out of the "Air" at the top, and make distilled water, and also heat pump heat into a warm to hot water container.  This of course requires a power source for the pumps of the heat pumps.  I also favor the farming of Hydrilla, in plastic bags that float in the water column.

Not shown are connections to ice tunnels on the grounding line, and regolith/rock tunnels and vaults further down.

Not shown are nuclear reactors, and/or solar panels or solar thermal methods on the surface.

Not solved is how to mothball this during dust storms and hard winters, in order to minimize damage.

But the design may be tolerant of CO2 ice, I think.  Heliostat/robots might be brought in side of it for instance to protect them from the harsh conditions, or they might be put into ice tunnels connecting to the surface.

Anyway it is a possible method.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-15 10:59:21)


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#1585 2024-01-15 12:24:40

Void
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Some have considered working with the albedo of Mars to alter its climate, and to terraform it.

I consider a system of mirrors that direct the light into collectors, to be in that family of scheme.

So, for one collector, perhaps you want many times the intensity of normal light going into the windows, perhaps to the tolerance level of the windows materials.

If you were on the geographical north or south pole, you might then have mirrors all the way around the receiver.  These could be animated robots that could walk around the receiver.  Or you would have a stationary or planted method.

For "Temperate" latitudes similar to that of Kansas or Spain then for the northern hemisphere you might do similar but would not deploy robot mirrors to the south as it likely would do little good.  I know that walking or rolling mirror robots seems a strange idea, but on Mars there will be no high wind force.

However, a platform more to the north might be made of ice and/or regolith that the robots could climb on or be postured /positioned on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colosseum
Image Quote: 405px-Colosseo_2020.jpg

Blood thirsty Deamon spawn.  But clever ones.

So, sort of a curved wall(s) on the north of the collector that mirror robots can cling to.

Keeping in mind that you could use chemical agriculture in the water as well, and possibly keep the water liquid in all conditions using nuclear of some kind, then it becomes a bit more sensible to me.

As I have indicated before I think an energy grid for Mars could include many energy sources, and if exercised each of those could become well discovered to produce wealth.

While this would work with albedo, then also greenhouse gasses, and also cloud formation methods could be used to advantage to bring the planet a bit closer to useful for humans.

One possible method would be to eject water vapor into the upper Martian atmosphere, using microwave beams to keep it flowing upwards from the ground.  Perhaps expensive, but maybe useful. 

If the bag of tricks could cause more of the CO2 to persist as vapor and not permanent or seasonal ice, then the radiation and pressure conditions of the general surface of the planet would be improved. 

It may even be possible to get it to snow at the equator.  Some may not like that but snow at the equator equals water and water is very useful where it is the warmest on the planet.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-15 12:43:36)


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#1586 2024-01-16 10:17:36

Void
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

c8HHXYj.png

I have done modifications to post #1584 drawing: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 41#p218441

A=Counterweight and Radiation Shield.
B=Vapor Chamber.
C=Is water that with the addition of an antifreeze such as salt can be of a subzero temperature.  I suppose maybe -2 C.

Returning to B, the vapor pressure of the water or ice exposed will be rather low: https://endmemo.com/chem/vaporpressurewater.php
@-2C then ~5.2256 mbar.

Heating the water of B above that likely will cause evaporation and so then you may want compressors to draw the excess vapors off and compress them into liquid distilled water.  This also could feed heat into a heat pump method to obtain useful heated water or another fluid.

D=Transparent cone shaped bag that aquatic and other plants might grow in.  To grow other plants then you need air filled terrariums.  The water inside might be a bit warmer than that of B.
E=Cone shaped shell inside of which warmer water may host chemical agriculture to grow Algae and Yeast perhaps.

Below that is a system of air filled habs.

The use of cone shapes allows weights to be attached to the projection of the cones surface to weight it down against the force of rising fluids.

The windows of B do not have to be very strong as per differential pressure as long as active methods do not allow a buildup of pressure.  If the system would go out of control, then a venting method would be used to reduce an overpressure in B.

Many ideas fostered by other people are shown in this, but I have added things as well.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-16 10:32:18)


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#1587 2024-01-16 15:43:16

Void
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Seeking input I make a query: "utube, These Underground People Could Show Us How to Survive On Mars"

A specific response: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI342B0rJT8
No desire to be rude, but the understand underground, domes, but do not seem to have a notion of life support, other than radiation controls.
But I appreciate that anyone tries at all.  But there is merit in their efforts.

I may rummage though this list to see if there is another similar, perhaps later.
A general response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=utube%2C+ … 85&pc=U531

Water has already been determined to be essential, and so if the bulk of water is at higher latitudes than the equator, that is a place to lean to adapt to in order to utilize its water resources.

One paragraph of this article says a lot: https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne … 943832.cms Quote:

WASHINGTON: Researchers have discovered an enormous slab of water ice just beneath the surface of Mars, measuring 130 feet thick and covering an area equivalent to that of California and Texas combined.


Read more at:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne … aign=cppst

In our dreams we might convert that area the size of two large USA states into a forest, or grassland, or sea.

But out life forms cannot make it there without mechanical assistance.  So, then I think my notion are a sort of Cyborg Biome.

But if you can capture the greater part of the light that falls on these slabs, it could be a very large biome, and cover large parts of the Planet Mars.

The method also might cause springs to be early on Mars, as the robots with mirrors could rise above the reflective CO2 ice and capture the light into these "Bottles" and so then some energy which would otherwise be lost to space would be captured to Mars, perhaps resulting in an early spring.

Done

So then the phrase "Cyber Biome"  smile

Last edited by Void (2024-01-16 15:59:17)


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#1588 2024-01-16 20:37:59

Void
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I feel that the best use of a planet is to use its photons for something.  Just now from a human point of view Mars photons don't profit humans much.  Mars does not care most likely it cannot care.  But we might care.

To start with the photons most in reach will be those where ice>water is convenient.

Later on water can be moved to where energy is, and vice versa.

That, from a human point of vies is the best use of Mars, in the case where humans feel that it is good for humans to exist and for humans to have means to happiness.

That of course does not include the doomsters.  The doomsters are royals, and feel that the role of a surf is to please them and then not exist.

So, don't follow them to the Slauter house.  Your future is poo if you do.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-16 20:41:23)


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#1589 2024-01-17 08:21:06

Void
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I recall a notion to export power from Iceland using microwaves.  A satellite would be needed to send it to another location.  I think it is more likely that they would use undersea cables.

But looking at Mars, joining energy to water while having minerals seems a good plan.

I have been in favor of orbital power satellites for Mars and still am, but I wonder about simply an orbital repeater?

It seems to me now that Mars can be divided into Icy Lands and Dry Lands.  Icy Lands are more towards higher latitudes but there are strong hints of exceptions of ice near the equator in some places.

I have suggested canals to bring water to lower latitudes but could it be more profitable to capture power in the Dry Lands and export it to the Icy Lands?

I see solar power on Mars as most likely being more robotic in nature, with lots of moving pieces.

This is because Mars has a lesser gravity field than Earth, and the storms of Mars do not produce that much force against machinery as on Earth.  Dust is the main problem and that may be overcome to a reasonable extent using robotics.

Off to an appointment now.

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Last edited by Void (2024-01-17 08:26:08)


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#1590 2024-01-17 10:58:02

Void
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Having another look at this now: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 83#p218483
c8HHXYj.png

Something like this could be done on Earth of course.  You actually could have hot water on top, and water cool enough for vegetation on the bottom.  Possibly you could even manage to pull a greater partial vacuum on 'B' and 'C' (Surface).

But back to Mars, and for now presuming the latitude approximately of Kansas or Spain and the Northern Hemisphere.

This then suggests an array of heliostats to the north of the receiver.

I have had training in process control and also worked with it in industrial situations, so I understand some of the problems of using actuators to redirect photons.  You could overheat a receiver and damage it.  You could damage things like glass panes with sudden thermal shock.

But in addition to the receiver I have shown, you could have alternate targets that the heliostats could focus on if desired.

Other targets could be alongside of the one I have shown.  Here are two possible.  If we call the evaporator/greenhouse receiver 1), then we could consider alternate receivers for the heliostats.
2) -Solar Thermal Boiler.
3) -Solar Panel with thermal extraction with cooling fluids.

Solar Thermal Boiler would be if you want to high temperature fluids.
Solar panels can perhaps handle 4 times as much as normal light of Mars, I am guessing.  But you might want to cool them with fluids.

And in fact if you had a dome greenhouse somewhere not too far away, you might use the same heliostats to send light to it. 

The process would be determined by the best gains of resources produced.

Done


But continuing....

https://www.space.com/30502-mars-giant- … y-mro.html
Image Quote: y8wdkgyDUgZPW7grfHTgZQ-650-80.jpg.webp

On a larger scale you can see that this giant crater in a slab of ice could have heliostats put on its inner rim, it looks like on the left side.

In this case: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korolev_(Martian_crater)
Image Quote: 250px-Perspective_view_of_Korolev_crater.jpg

The left side looks frosty, so I expect that the right side is the sunward side.  But also, I suppose the target could be on the inside north rim, and the heliostats could be on the layer of ice in the center of the crater.

But huge installations like this would come later and likely these could become some of the big city type situations.  Earlier on the ground around an energy site might be contoured to be higher in the north side and lower at the receiver.  It is possible that scaffolding of some kind could host heliostats to the north.

Done

And no, I am not at all against nuclear, rather I want to promote it.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-17 11:29:19)


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#1591 2024-01-18 09:08:55

Void
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I have this this morning, inspired by Korolev Crater: xkm02Xm.png

Korolev Crater naturally has these components.

Near the equator on Martian nights, high humidities occur.  If a surface was shaded well enough, then it might get cool enough.  Perhaps this would be done in the warmer parts of the temperate zone. 

And it is worth noting that not only would we hope to gather water frost, but to concentrate energy to the target.

There may be many existing craters where this might be tried.

At the very least you might get a collection of cold humid air in the bottom of the crater and then compress it to collect the water in it as vapors.

This last version might work in equatorial craters.

Here is a reference: https://www.space.com/16907-what-is-the … mperatures.  Quote:

According to Rummel, the humidity of Mars is tied to temperature fluctuations. At night, relative humidity levels can rise to 80 to 100 percent, with the air sometimes reaching atmospheric saturation. The daytime air is far drier, due to warmer temperatures.

So, that sounds possible to accomplish, to me.

Gale Crater: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gale_(crater)
Image Quote: 200px-Topographic_Map_of_Gale_Crater.jpg  Quote:

Colorized shaded relief map of the crater Gale. The general landing area for Curiosity on the northwestern crater floor, named Aeolis Palus, is circled. (HRSC data)

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-18 09:19:40)


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#1592 2024-01-18 12:37:06

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,291

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Well, this is a heck of a discovery!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … c4fec&ei=2
Quote:

Water ice buried at Mars' equator is over 2 miles thick
Story by Keith Cooper • 4h

A European Space Agency (ESA) probe has found enough water to cover Mars in an ocean between 4.9 and 8.9 feet (1.5 and 2.7 meters) deep, buried in the form of dusty ice beneath the planet's equator.

The finding was made by ESA's Mars Express mission, a veteran spacecraft that has been engaged in science operations around Mars for 20 years now. While it's not the first time that evidence for ice has been found near the Red Planet's equator, this new discovery is by far the largest amount of water ice detected there so far and appears to match previous discoveries of frozen water on Mars.

"Excitingly, the radar signals match what we expect to see from layered ice and are similar to the signals we see from Mars' polar caps, which we know to be very ice rich," said lead researcher Thomas Watters of the Smithsonian Institution in the United States in an ESA statement.
The deposits are thick, extended 3.7km (2.3) miles underground, and topped by a crust of hardened ash and dry dust hundreds of meters thick. The ice is not a pure block but is heavily contaminated by dust. While its presence near the equator is a location more easily accessible to future crewed missions, being buried so deep means that accessing the water-ice would be difficult.

Related: Mars Express orbiter suggests evidence of ancient microbial life, water and volcanism on Red Planet

Some 15 years ago, Mars Express detected deposits beneath a geological formation called the Medusae Fossae Formation (MFF), but scientists were not sure what those deposits consisted of. Mars' geography is split between northern highlands and southern lowlands, and the huge 5,000-km-long MMF is situated near the boundary between the two.

It is suspected that the MMF itself formed within the past 3 billion years from lava flows and was covered in volcanic ash during an era long ago when Mars was volcanically active. Today, the MMF is covered in heaps of dust towering several kilometers high — it's actually the most plentiful source of dust on the entire planet, fuel for the giant dust storms that can engulf Mars on a seasonal basis. Were the deposits just dust, perhaps filling a deep valley?   


Image Quote: AA1nbxLM.img?w=534&h=281&m=6
This perspective view shows Eumenides Dorsum, part of Mars’s Medusae Fossae Formation (MFF). The MFF consists of a series of wind-sculpted deposits measuring hundreds of kilometers across and several kilometers high. Found at the boundary between Mars' highlands and lowlands, the deposits are possibly the biggest single source of dust on Mars, and one of the most extensive deposits on the planet. (Image credit: Caltech/JPL Global CTX Mosaic of Mars/Smithsonian Institution)
© Provided by Space

New observations by MARSIS, which is a subsurface radar on board Mars Express, now have the answer — and it's not dust.

"Given how deep it is, if the MFF was simply a giant pile of dust, we'd expect it to become compacted under its own weight," said Andrea Cicchetti of the National Institute for Astrophysics in Italy in a press statement. "This would create something far denser than what we actually see with MARSIS."

Instead, the deposits are low in density and fairly transparent to MARSIS' radar, which is exactly how one would expect water ice to appear in the data.

Image Quote: AA1nbNqS.img?w=534&h=532&m=6
Quote:

In this image, the white line on Mars' surface (top) shows a stretch of land that was scanned by MARSIS. The graph below shows the shape of the land and the structure of the subsurface, with the layer of dry sediments (likely dust or volcanic ash) in brown and the layer of suspected ice-rich deposits in blue. The graph shows that the ice deposit is thousands of meters high and hundreds of kilometers wide. (Image credit: CReSIS/KU/Smithsonian Institution)
© Provided by Space

More pertinent is the question of how the water ice ended up buried at the equator. Sub-surface ice has been found in plentiful quantities on Mars before; NASA's Phoenix mission dug up ice just beneath the dusty surface at the lander's polar landing site in 2008. Meanwhile, early in its mission, Mars Express detected abundant water-ice extending down into the mid-latitudes, and NASA's Mars Odyssey even found clues to the presence of water in the MMF in 2009.

More recently, ESA's Trace Gas Orbiter detected hydrogen from water ice just beneath the surface of Candor Chaos, which is a segment of the immense rip in the surface of Mars that we call Vallis Marineris. Additionally, the remains of ancient glaciers, called relict glaciers, have been spotted in Eastern Noctis Labyrinthus, which is just 7.3 degrees south of the equator.

The presence of subsurface water-ice at low and equatorial latitudes hints at how Mars' climate was very different in the distant past.

"This latest analysis challenges our understanding of the MFF and raises as many questions as answers," said Colin Wilson, who is an ESA Project Scientist for Mars Express and the Trace Gas Orbiter, in the statement. "How long did these ice deposits form, and what was Mars like at the time?"

The ice's existence could be the result of Mars' wandering axis. Across the Red Planet's history, the axial tilt of the planet's poles is understood to have varied quite chaotically. Currently Mars' poles are tilted to the ecliptic by 25 degrees (compared to Earth, which has a tilt of 23 degrees) but in the past this could have ranged from as shallow an angle as 10 degrees, to as extreme an angle as 60 degrees.

During the periods of high obliquity, when the poles are pointing closer to the sun than the equator, water-ice could form in large quantities on the surface at the equator. That ice could then be buried by ash and dust falls, to remain covered to this day.

The changing obliquity could also explain 400,000-year-old features discovered on Mars by the Chinese Zhurong rover, as well as the existence of gullies formed by liquid water where no such water should have existed.

The new discovery is described in a paper published in Geophysical Research Letters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medusae_Fossae_Formation

https://www.space.com/mars-water-ice-eq … ozen-ocean

https://www.newscientist.com/article/24 … mp-of-ice/

https://english.elpais.com/science-tech … -mars.html
Quote:

SPACE EXPLORATION
Massive deposits of water ice discovered on the equator of Mars
These deposits, which would be enough to fill the Red Sea, could be used by astronauts on exploration missions and to study the possible existence of life on the Red Planet

https://www.siliconrepublic.com/innovat … -formation
Quote:

Red Sea worth of water buried near Mars equator?
by Vish Gain

4 HOURS AGO

OK, this is what else I wanted: https://www.esa.int/ESA_Multimedia/Imag … _Formation
Quote: Location_of_Mars_s_Medusae_Fossae_Formation_pillars.png
Quote:

Location of Mars’s Medusae Fossae Formation
18/01/2024

493724 ID

Well, the air pressure should be favorable there.
Also, Calliban has suggested making basalt parts using that type of dust.

Could we sling ice chunks to the tops of the mountains with a mass driver?

Could a hopper ship like what Dr. Johnson has suggested land at the low elevation and then hop up to the tops of the mountains and then be refilled and then go to orbit?

Done

Under the circumstances, can we ask if there may be deeply buried clathrates on Mars.  Might the atmospheric collapse have resulted from that?

And on rare occasions did the atmospheric pressure rise up temporarily if some of them were gasified by some heat source?

And so maybe some brief wet periods later in the lifetime of Mars.  Enough to shift water vapor and ice around perhaps, but maybe not so much liquid water.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-18 13:36:13)


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#1593 2024-01-18 20:02:47

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,291

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I would like to go back 10 months or so.  The Angry Astronaut had still other notions about water near the equator of Mars.
https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE

All the time it seems that the question of water on Mars gets better and better answers.

I suppose it is almost guaranteed that the first settlement will be by a low latitude source of water.

But, in time I expect activities to spread to wherever there is ice even all the way to the poles.

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#1594 2024-01-23 10:45:22

Void
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Calliban has stimulated something in another location, and I want to work on it here.
His post: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 74#p218674
I have for some time had an eye on this sort of thing for Mushrooms: https://www.resilience.org/stories/2019 … ic-messes/
Growing Mushrooms on Petroleum spills.

But now I am interested in the possibility that Mushrooms could be grown on Carbon in a pseudo soil mixture.
If necessary then perhaps Carbon and acetate.

What I have in mind is destructive distillation of organic matter.  The source of the organic materials could be "Weeds and waste".  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destructive_distillation  I just noticed that this process could produce "Coke", which also could be useful in Metal processing.

Waste would be from "Crops" grown, the not edible, or useful parts.

In harsh environments weeds may grow well but likely are not suitable to food or other use.

In destructive distillation of these, chemicals like Hydrocarbons might be derived and then also leaving behind some COKE.  It is probably easier to produce "Harsh" environments in space than to produce gentile environments.  This will likely be true on Mars.

So, "Weeds and Waste">Hydrocarbons & Coke, may be a farming path which may give fuels and also Coke to use in metal working and also to grow Mushrooms.  The Coke would be sterile out of the oven, which can be important for Mushrooms.

It is possible that the heat for the Destructive Distillation would be from solar Heliostat concentrations.

For Cyanobacteria, this effort has been made: https://www.upi.com/Science_News/2021/0 … 613420292/  Quote:

"For example, the lower pressure means that we can develop a more lightweight structure that is more easily freighted, as it won't have to withstand great differences between inside and outside," Verseux said.

So, they created a "Harsh" environment and yet could grow the cyanobacteria.  I cannot say if these microbes could be good food, but they certainly could be a source of Hydrocarbons and Carbon for resources.

A "Weed" I am fond of is Hydrilla: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrilla
It is an invasive species in the USA, but is very tolerant of many conditions.

How I see it's use on Mars would be in a bag of water inside of a vat of water: OuUFAKW.png

The blue vat water can purposely lack nutrients for life to grow.  At low temperatures, the needed pressure for the protective transparency above this cold water can be very low.

But the Green bag will be pressurized by water column, and could be further pressurized, as it could have sufficient tensile strength.  Nutrients could be added.  Cyanobacteria, and Hydrilla may be possible to grow in it, and perhaps other things.  The green bag being heated and insulated still some heat will go from it into the blue water of the Vat.  This could cause low pressure boiling, but then a compressor could draw off the vapors to create a useful distilled water, and even a heat pump situation, as the Vat with Bag could be considered to be a solar thermal heat collector.

Heliostats could increase the photon flux to this collector, and so bring the temperature levels and lighting levels towards optimal.  It would be permissible to allow ice to form on top of the water of the vat at times though.

So, then Hydrilla is edible and could be ground up to help create 3D printed foods, perhaps Mushrooms in a like manner.

But you may be able to process much of it into Hydrocarbons and Coke.

I think Mushrooms may be able to at least in part digest Coke.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-23 11:34:16)


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#1595 2024-01-23 19:17:31

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,291

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Fungi as food: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9863462/

The scheme I showed in the previous post would work on synthetic gravity devices in orbits.  The windows would not need to deal with that much differential pressure, you could use the Vat & Bag method.

That would be a rather facilitated path to organic solar energy methods.

That does not stop humans from making very pleasant parks, the above would simply be a bulk method to manufacture resources such as Oxygen, Fuels, and foods.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-23 19:20:34)


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#1596 2024-01-24 09:21:42

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,291

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I want to attach this topic here as I hope to associate it with larger asteroids.  (So, far it is sort of about the Moon).
The topic is likely to sink in to the quicksand of forgetfulness so I will attach it here.
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=10675
Quote:

Index» Interplanetary transportation» Risky Speculations, (New Uses of modified existing abilities).

For asteroids, my interest is most on this: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 24#p218624
Quote: LjRE3wA.png

The method of having a unified engine/aeroshell seems interesting for asteroids, and perhaps sending materials to worlds with an atmosphere.

Doing this, much of the fuels are heated foam metals, with stimulation from an Oxygen/Hydrocarbon burn.  I guess I would say that turbo ejectors would send a highly oxidized hot gas flow into the engine bell to burn on the hot liquid metal foam.

This engine may or may not be strong and suitable enough for the Moon, but it might also be considered for some asteroids.

It might be acceptable to aero burn into the atmospheres of Venus, Earth, Mars, Titan.

Venus is full of organic chemicals, such as Nitrogen which has value.  So, if you could send these to aerobrake to orbit of Venus, then atmospheric mining may be facilitated.

You might also deliver desired materials to Earth orbit by this method, but of course you then have to avoid the consequences of a bad encounter where one of these may crash.

The device probably being robotic and not crewed, it may make many atmospheric passes before it is where it is desired to be.

Where Mars is concerned, the materials delivered might help in making orbital infrastructure.

For Titan, of course "Metals" delivered would likely be welcome.

Of course one concern about the process could be the ejection of particles that the solar wind would hot carry away.  So then collision hazards might be created.  So the burn process has to be perfected to avoid that.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-24 10:15:43)


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#1597 2024-01-24 10:16:59

Void
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Posts: 7,291

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I now wish to extend from a hot foam metal, to a sort of a wick method, which I think would allow higher temperatures and liquid phase metal fuels.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium
Quote:

Melting point    933.47 K (660.32 °C, 1220.58 °F)
Boiling point    2743 K (2470 °C, 4478 °F)

So, if there was a wick material that could withstand such a high temperature it might contain liquid Aluminum droplets in it.  My original thought was that the wick would burn with the Aluminum, but who knows maybe some day it might work like an oil lamp with a wick.

This system, maybe could heat the Aluminum to just below the boiling point of Aluminum, provided the wick could stand up to that.

This could allow a heating method such as inductive heating to prime the propulsion device with solar or nuclear energy, prior to launch.

A route from an asteroid or centaur, to Venus could allow the development of habitats composed of these perhaps: LjRE3wA.png

At Venus two of these bells could be joined to each other to make a prescribable space.  They also could be used as scrap to make power devices and other types of things.

I fear bombarding the Earth's atmosphere repeatedly with these, but materials of this kind collected at Venus by aerocapture, could be sent to Earth using a Ballistic Capture route, Venus>Earth.  This then would not require aerobraking or aerocapture.  The devices originating at Asteroids and Centaurs, may have a distribution of materials that would be wanted at the Earth/Moon.  This could include water, hydrocarbons, and Carbon, and from Venus Nitrogen, and perhaps the previously named items.  And of course, "Metals".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_capture
Venus>Earth/Moon
If desired propulsion from Venus to Earth/Moon could be provided by Solar Wind or Photon sails.  This may conserve mass so that it can be delivered to Earth/Moon orbits.

Done.

Of course, Mars/Phobos/Deimos could be involved as well.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-24 20:57:02)


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#1598 2024-01-24 10:41:23

Void
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Posts: 7,291

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

And gravitational passes may be able to help get these things to Venus.

That might involve, Jupiter, Ceres, Mars, Earth, and maybe Venus itself, and perhaps even Mercury.
Oberth burns might also be possible.

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#1599 2024-01-24 16:09:44

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,291

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

This may be of value: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-BB1hcJHr  Quote:

Scientists announce breakthrough in hypersonic heat shield
Story by Peter Grad • 2h

Another thing I will work on later is a in flight transformer method.  On launch many supporting items such as propellant tanks might be mounted outside of the shell, but prior to an aerobraking action those might be moved into the insides of the shell.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-24 16:11:49)


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#1600 2024-01-24 20:57:29

Void
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Posts: 7,291

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Picking up on this again: A route from an asteroid or centaur, to Venus could allow the development of habitats composed of these perhaps: LjRE3wA.png

I am very interested in the manufacture of something like this in the mid regions of the solar system.  Asteroids, and perhaps Centaurs.

Then to fly many of them to Venus.  Venus has lots of solar energy and also more Nitrogen than the Earth does.  Obviously, it also has a lot of CO2 and just a bit of Hydrogen, not very much though.

If preheated foam metal or wicked fuels, can help to push the devices off of an asteroid and on a path to a gravitational assist then I consider that to be a promising method.  Otherwise, we might resort to other types of propulsions.

A ceramic method appears to be available as a concept from China: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 32#p218732 

This may be of value: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-BB1hcJHr  Quote:

Scientists announce breakthrough in hypersonic heat shield
Story by Peter Grad • 2h

I am not sure I understand my apples to apples and Oranges to Oranges on this, but it sounds like a good sales pitch.

Anyway, I am thinking I want a ceramic shell fitted to be on top of a metal shell.  Probably with standoffs, as the two shells will have different expansion behaviors when subjected to heat.

The hope would be that you could launch such a device from a low gravity world.  It would have a Hydrogen or Hydrocarbon fuel to burn lean in an Oxygen stream.  The desire is to have lots of orphan Oxygen and also some Hydrogen atoms that are not firmly bonded to other molecules.  Then to send this to a preheated metal fuel method in the bell of the "Engine".

One metal fuel method could be a preheated form metal such as Aluminum.  A hotter method would be to have liquid Aluminum entrained into a wick of something that is fibrous and solid.

Then an interplanetary cruse would occur, where you might use the bell as a solar collector by a few methods.

The bell pointed at the sun would not be your optimal mirror shape, but still, it would create photon concentrations, and even heat.

This power could be used to trim the path of the device by various methods that may use electricity and heat.

Just prior to Venus encounter if the intention is to capture to the orbits of Venus, all vulnerable devices would be places inside of the bell for protection such things as propellant tanks, and thrusters, and solar equipment, nuclear reactors everything.

If the intent is to send the device on to Earth/Moon for a Ballistic capture, then no aero burn is needed.

So, really if you wanted to push this very far you could build up shade for Venus, and take Nitrogen and other materials from Venus.  You might choose to terraform Venus in this manner but the orbital habitats of Venus would be far more valuable far earlier than that.

As for life on Venus, I think it could even be intelligent as a sort of hive mind of microbes.  And if it exists we need to be very very propper in anything we may do. with Venus.

Having a sibling in the solar system would likely require that we change our plans as such a sibling would be far more valuable than the planet Venus to us in the long run, I feel.

So, it has to be checked for.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-24 21:31:55)


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