Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Void · 2023-12-16 09:30:04

I want to express gratitude to RGClark for this post: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 24#p217224 Quote:

RGClark
Member
From: Philadelphia, PA
Registered: 2006-07-05
Posts: 669
Email Website
This is essentially the idea being proposed by Jeff Greason and collaborators building on ideas of John Slough:
NSS Space Forum - July 14, 2022 - Fast Solar Wind Sailing with Jeff Greason.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00xyBT70sB4
Bob Clark
Old Space rule of acquisition (with a nod to Star Trek - the Next Generation):
“Anything worth doing is worth doing for a billion dollars.”

The post had this link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00xyBT70sB4
Quote:

NSS Space Forum - July 14, 2022 - Fast Solar Wind Sailing with Jeff Greason
National Space Society
12.3K subscribers

I reviewed the materials yesterday and feel that I have a partial understanding of the methods and objectives contained.

So, my conversation in relationship to it may be partially correct, at best, I expect.

So, as I often am willing to take chances as I am not a professional or at risk of losing something, I want to see if the above work can be related to our Moon and to robots, such as Optimus, the Tesla Bot or other robotics. I would also like to seek to associate it with matter projectors such as mass drivers and Neumann Drives as mass drivers.

I will need to review the materials again, but for now I wonder if our wheel of spinning electrons can work in Moon orbits. It apparently has electron flow and so then a magnetic field.

So, an objective would be to achieve orbital changes of mass loads, in part utilizing a version of the solar sailing method. A concern would be the interaction of such a electron flow and magnetic field with the Moon itself, if the device comes to a low orbit. And if you project matter from the Moon to the device, can there be some propulsive result, and even a possible capture of mass to orbit?

It is hard to know how conductive the Moon would be to the electrons, if they impinge on it's regolith. Would then travel over the surface or could they travel in the pore space of the regolith? Also there may be a degree of inductive reactance of the magnetic field to the relative motion of the field and the materials of the Moon. This would perhaps involve orbital motion but also electron flow around the "Stator" which spins a flow of electrons around.

That is as much as I have for now, but I do wonder if fines projected from surface based Neumann Drives can have and effect, maybe even projectiles from mass drivers?

While I feel I have asked some useful questions, I will set that part down for now and talk a bit about Optimus and other robots on the Moon.

My last mention of Optimus on the Moon, had it spending some daytime hours under a sort of a tent with variable albedo. This tent might be more open bottom, and rather light and might spin occasionally to present an appropriate average albedo to the sun and universe to make the temperature under the tent relatively temperate to the degree that it would be protective to the robot.

But we have some other needs:
-Dust protection.
-Energy Needs.
-Surviving the Night.

One basic solution to dust could be to sinter roads for robots to travel on. Also, sideways sweepers could periodically sweep dust accumulations off of these roads. I believe that roads were supposed to be a Roman technology of value to that empire. So, the roads could also be made to suit the needs of the robots.

For power, the roads could have electric rails, and solar panels associated.

For survival in the cold of night and perhaps protection from radiation storms, perhaps bunkers with an energy storage device might be built. They would be heated up but might also have some kind of electric energy to keep robots alive inside of them at night.

I would like to conserve organic chemicals that exist on the Moon and use other methods to support the manipulation of objects than those requiring the consumption of those organic chemicals in ways where the chemicals are lost to further usage.

The bunkers for the robots might also allow visits or even stays by humans, but we might hope to have gainful economic activities on the Moon, and generally I thin humans would not be economic as a rule. They might participate as an exception, here and there however. But the purpose of this would be to obtain economic gain for the humans and their machine helpers.

I will attempt to provide supporting links of various kinds now:
https://cybernews.com/news/moon-explora … s%20needed. Quote:

Scientists find a way to make roads on the Moon – and it’s simple
Updated on: November 20, 2023 2:50 PM
Gintaras Radauskas
Senior journalist

https://www.blueorigin.com/news/blue-al … nar-future
Quote:

Blue Alchemist Technology Powers Our Lunar Future

https://www.space.com/esa-oxygen-from-l … ation.html
Quote:

European startup builds oxygen-making machine for 2025 moon mission
News
By Tereza Pultarova published May 17, 2021
An oxygen-making machine could be processing regolith on the moon by 2025.

I think that it is fairly reasonable to suppose that if you have power grids on the surface of the Moon they could send power to orbiting spacecraft ty Laser or Microwaves. So, this might power the orbiting devices that would have the magnetic fields. I might even be possible that the electrical grids on the Moon could have their own magnetic fields which could interact with the orbiting devices magnetic fields.

A big win would be if those orbiting magnetic fields could catch the output of Neumann drives on the surface of the Moon, maybe even output from mass drivers.

And this might allow for rings of such orbital devices which could pass mass upwards in the Lunar gravity well. The activity of catching mass and passing it upward might serve to help propel the devices as well.

Materials then in orbit might be used to construct resources that may benefit the Earth and also activities in Space.

Done.

The tents I spoke of might be attached to a car that could ride on the rails that might be on the roads sintered. Robots could ride on these. The cars would have dust sweepers to keep the roads clean.

The tents might be like umbrellas, and would have a mast that would allow the spinning of it to present a desirable albedo. Maybe there could be some "On-Board" power devices such as solar cells as well.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-16 10:28:03)

Void · 2023-12-16 12:42:52

There is the question of where would the brains for these robots be. Radiation is a problem. The "Car" traveling on the road might be reliably shielded. Also perhaps somewhere in an orbit. And then an easily replaceable module in the robot itself.

This then may allow for smaller versions of the robot. Robots the size of a child? Our living spaces are quite a lot compatible with children at least.

This person is quite small, intelligent, and reasonably functional: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyoti_Amge

Quote:

Jyoti Kishanji Amge (born 16 December 1993)[1] is an Indian actress notable for being the world's shortest living woman according to the Guinness World Records.[3][4][5]
Image Quote:
Following Amge's 18th birthday on 16 December 2011, she was officially declared the world's shortest woman by Guinness World Records with a height of 62.8 centimetres (2 ft 3⁄4 in).[6][7] Her restricted height is due to a genetic disorder called primordial dwarfism.[8][1]

So, a smaller version of the Tesla Bot might bring its brains with it in a wagon for instance.

So, the point is small hands with a good mind, might do some special types or work.

Remember, it would be a robot, not an actual human woman.

Electric work such as solar panel construction and fine mechanics come to mind.

Done

This video mentions robot versions larger than human: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQwltHhVVJc
Quote:

Tesla’s Billion-Dollar Bot Business w/ Cern Basher
Brighter with Herbert
57.8K subscribers

So, imagine what versions might be useful in space. Small, of course reduces dry mass. Big gives some capabilities that may be desired.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-16 12:55:20)

Void · 2023-12-16 21:43:40

The title on this is a bit odd, but the video contains several interesting claims.
https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE Quote:

China's record-breaking new solar panels will be made by robotic humans
YouTube
The Electric Viking
129.2K views
1 month ago

Items of interest are efficiency, robots to do the making, and also self healing solar panels that can last hundreds of years.

Roman Concrete is self healing apparently so maybe solar panels can be made so also.

So, of course per the 2 last posts, I think that various versions of Tesla Bot may be helpful to make solar panels.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-16 21:46:19)

Void · 2023-12-17 09:41:04

I ran into a valuable video this morning, so I want to explore it. I will put it in my "Library" in post #1 of this topic, also.

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=VRDGAR Quote:

Environmental Control Systems and Food Production for Space Travel
YouTube
Terran Space Academy
2.5K views
1 week ago

I think the idea of a large ship might benefit from the materials in this video.

I still prefer a robotic dominated Moon concept, but that is best used to support human expansion into space.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-12-17 09:43:23)

Void · 2023-12-19 08:35:18

Some of the readers should like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6L-dP8amzk
Quote:

Let's talk about a future on Mars with Dr. Zubrin
Ellie in Space
79.8K subscribers

I think Ellie interviews Dr. Zubrin very well.

I especially liked Dr. Zubrin's mention of chemical food production, but also many other items as well.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-19 08:37:16)

Void · 2023-12-19 09:26:32

I ran into this this morning: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE
Quote:

Aussie farmers learn to harvest hemp, 'toughest plant on the planet' ? | Landline | ABC Australia
YouTube
ABC Australia
194.4K views
1 month ago

In the article is some mention of Hempcrete, which interests me a great deal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hempcrete
Quote:

Hempcrete or hemplime is biocomposite material, a mixture of hemp hurds (shives) and lime,[1] sand, or pozzolans, which is used as a material for construction and insulation.[2] It is marketed under names like Hempcrete, Canobiote, Canosmose, Isochanvre and IsoHemp.[3] Hempcrete is easier to work with than traditional lime mixes and acts as an insulator and moisture regulator. It lacks the brittleness of concrete and consequently does not need expansion joints.[3]
Typically, hempcrete has good thermal and acoustic insulation capabilities, but low mechanical performance, specifically compressive strength.[4] Hempcrete's mechanical properties, when used in prefabricated blocks specifically, act as a carbon sink throughout its lifetime.[5] The result is a lightweight insulating material, finishing plaster, or a non-load bearing wall, ideal for most climates as it combines insulation and thermal mass while providing a positive impact on the environment.

I have no such plants or do intend to be a farmer of such, but for space and maybe Mars, this looks very interesting.

So, now, I think that for the Calcium needed I have a pretty good possibility, and a food chain which should be useful to people on Mars and perhaps also in space also.

I have often promoted ice covered bodies of water on Mars for a very long time. In this case I am not going to bother you with notions of salt gradients, just a ice covered body of water, perhaps a sea water simulant with some calcium salts in it. Then an ecology powered by acetate and Oxygen.

And next we have filter feeder animals on the bottom of this, maybe even swimming things, but the less active the animal, the less calories consumed. Shelled animals then might yield food and various shell materials, which may include a sort of "Lime" I hope.

While the bulk of the water might be at approximately -2 degC, enclosures on the bottom could be much warmer.

Filter feeders might feed on algae, but maybe they could feed on yeast, as that is reported to be very productive. In any case microbes could be consumed by filter feeders.

Hemp probably cannot grow on acetate and Oxygen, alone, but might benefit from it??? At any rate then an efficient way to grow hemp would be wanted. Some amount of light is likely required, at least to signal the plants what time of day or the season it is growing in. Maybe a combination of chemical and photo energy sources for the Hemp.

In this prior post, Dr. Zubrin mentions chemical driven agriculture: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 32#p217332

In this other prior post, a suggestion of organic waste to insects/worms to Chickens is suggested: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 58#p217258
Algae, Yeast, and Mushrooms might also be inserted into the waste stream to a similar result, I expect.

Mushrooms themselves may be a crop using acetate and Oxygen, and Algae, and Yeast might be converted into 3D printed foods as well, I would hope.

You could very likely grow Mushrooms inside of diving bells filled with air on the bottom of the ice-covered lakes and seas.

So, really a vast amount of Martian surface might be occupied by such ice-covered bodies of water.

I would not rule out having hemp farms in the orbits of Mars, as the spectrum of materials available from Mars/Phobos/Deimos, may support it.

Done

Calcium Salts on Mars? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composition_of_Mars
Quote:

Based on these data sources, scientists think that the most abundant chemical elements in the Martian crust are silicon, oxygen, iron, magnesium, aluminium, calcium, and potassium. These elements are major components of the minerals comprising igneous rocks

Also in the bottoms of lakes and seas on Mars, we should expect a bit of radiolysis, to promote microbes in the sediments.

If something similar to salty waters on the Earth could be created, then some life forms might do OK if other needs for them are satisfied.

I wanted to know what the specific gravity of sea water is. So far this is a bit useful: https://www.britannica.com/science/seaw … d-pressure
Quote:

The relationship between pressure and density is demonstrated by observing the effect of pressure on the density of seawater at 35 psu and 0 °C. Because a one-metre (three-foot) column of seawater produces a pressure of about one decibar (0.1 atmosphere), the pressure in decibars is approximately equal to the depth in metres. (One decibar is one-tenth of a bar, which in turn is equal to 105 newtons per square metre.)

So, it is a little better than fresh water to pressurize the lake/sea floors. So, on Earth 10 Meters will give one bar, I think? On Mars, I guess that would be about 380 mbar, which is compatible with human life, but approaching the minimum pressure limits.

Fishes struggle to adapt to water twice as salty as the oceans waters, but you could make the water a bit saltier than our sea water to get more pressurization. But in realty there is like the option to simply make the body of water deeper.

A method to store energy might be geothermal fracking, below the lake/sea floor, to store heat in the rocks of Mars, if those rocks are suitable.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti … eothermal/
So, now even if geothermal is not practical on Mars, at least in some locations, you might push very hot fluids into such wells to store the energy of polar summers, or the summers of mid-latitudes.

This would be good enough for year around storage. And you could quench your steam from electric generation into the water of the lakes/seas.

And to be sure I do not have a problem with including nuclear power into such a power grid.

Done

We should be asking if we could do something like this on Earth. For instance, the Great Salt Lake, if covered in solar panels and a vapor barrier could support lots of productive agriculture based on Chemicals. But the ecology of the bigger part of the lake could be kept intact. Just remove excess salts from the lake into the enclosures and pipe the river water into such enclosures.

This could make much more sense than irrigating land crops, to feed livestock, perhaps.

And such a solution would work for other salty inland bodies of water in desert lands.

Actually, huge parts of the great basin might be made productive, if you had an enclosure which would not leak water vapor excusably to the atmosphere.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-19 10:23:36)

Calliban · 2023-12-19 10:26:08

Void wrote:

Some of the readers should like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6L-dP8amzk
Quote:
Let's talk about a future on Mars with Dr. Zubrin
Ellie in Space
79.8K subscribers
I think Ellie interviews Dr. Zubrin very well.
I especially liked Dr. Zubrin's mention of chemical food production, but also many other items as well.
Done

Good video. I agree with Zubrin that breeder reactors are the way forward on Mars and that natural photosynthesis will not be the way we produce staple foods. It is just too poorly efficient on a world where everything would need to be grown in a pressurised, heated greenhouse. That is going to cost a lot to set up even for one person. If there are ways of producing calories with much lower capital cost, it will be an immiediate priority.

On the topic of fusion reactors, I think the fusion-fission hybrid will come first. The fusion reactor itself doesn't need to reach breakeven, because the valuable thing it produces are the neutrons. Each of those neutrons will produce several fission events, each of which produces 15x more useful energy than the fast neutron carries. A hybrid is something that could probably be built today. On Mars, it would allow us to extract about 20% of the energy content of uranium without reprocessing. We just put natural U into the blanket region and bombard it with neutrons until a fifth of the atoms have fissioned. Then we remove it and store it as waste. If we wanted to reprocess, then a single hybrid reactor could produce enough MOX fuel for several downstream fission reactors. So the first thing fusion allows us to do, is build a better fission reactor system.

I don't really agree with what he says about Musk or Ukraine. I think what Musk has done with Twitter as a free speech platform, is noble and selfless. He is not taking sides in a political spatt by failing to censor, because free speech applies to all opinions equally. But given Zubrin's family history, I am not surprised to see him speak in favour of the censorship industrial complex. I think Musk is at risk of failing due to his ownership of Tesla, not Twitter. If electric cars fail to displace ICE cars as he is predicting, and ultimately flop and disappear, he has invested a lot in what will turn out to be the wrong technology. If he does ultimately go bankrupt, my money is on Tesla not Twitter, as his weakest link.

As an aside and given that we are posting this on the terraforming board, the above conclusions have interesting implications for terraforming. What Zubrin (and I) are proposing for food production, is not chemical food. Food is still produced by biological organisms. But those organisms get their energy from a chemical energy precursor like acetate, rather than photosynthesis. This is far more efficient way of converting primary energy into food energy. But the point is that if food can be cheaply produced using a fission or fusion energy source in compact spaces, we no longer need an extensive biosphere to support human life. We may still have green spaces, but they will serve different functions. We won't need acres of fields just to grow enough food to live.

This removes a lot of the requirement for terraforming, because humans no longer need land in order to survive. The land is something that provides us with raw materials that we use to build stuff. Those raw materials are still there regardless of whether there is air above them or not, whether the air is breathable or not and whether temperatures are comfortable or -250°C. A more comfortable environment may make mining easier, but as most mining is underground and will probably be carried out by robots, that isn't a big concern there either. This shifts the debate on terraforming away from 'how' we might do it, to a more fundamental question of 'why'. If we don't need the land on Mars to provide us with food, then turning it into an Earth analogue habitable environment is less of a priority. We need warm, breathable air in the habitats we want to live in. But for the planet outside of habitats, the benefits of terraforming are less likely to be worth the cost.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-12-19 10:43:00)

Void · 2023-12-19 11:34:05

A good post Calliban, and I like your description of hybrid reactors, I presume that this may be good for Mars as we think deuterium can be gotten relatively easy.

I like the accumulation of many skills, so I don't rule out solar, or mandate it. I will likely be a practical and economic decision(s), and I suspect that the practices will vary over different parts of Mars.

While I have suggested diving bells on the bottom of lakes and Seas, I also will suggest that tunnels and vaults could be excavated into the rock under the lakes/seas. Much rock on Mars is volcanic and hard, but I believe that there are sediments, including sandstone.

Microwave method might dig vaults even in hard rock though. Perhaps this is adaptable to such an intention.
Then also from the vaults, drilling geo-wells might be done to store or even extract energy. https://spectrum.ieee.org/altarock-ener … rmal-wells
Quote:

Instead of grinding away with mechanical drills, scientists use a gyrotron—a specialized high-frequency microwave-beam generator—to open holes in slabs of hard rock. The goal is to penetrate rock at faster speeds, to greater depths, and at a lower cost than conventional drills do.

So, then to make living spaces, you do not have to make lots of special materials, perhaps.

The living spaces will be rather well protected from the harsh surface environment of Mars.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-19 11:42:37)

Calliban · 2023-12-19 12:13:43

Interesting re the microwave drilling idea. It isn't entirely clear how this technology works. If they are talking about vaporising the rock, then this will be quite a slow and energy intensive process. They are aiming at a different application to what you are discussing here. Their ambition is deep drilling at depths of 10-20km, in semi-plastic rocks, needed to access deep geothermal resources. There aren't too many options for drilling at those depths and at the sort of temperatures that prevail.

If the rocks contain trapped moisture even in small amounts, then microwaves of the right frequency could be used to generate pore pressure by heating the moisture above boiling point. This would crack the rock, reducing it to loosely aggregated rubble. A mechanical jack hammer can then be used to dislodge it from the surface. Other methods of breaking a rock face include:

1. Hydraulic fracturing - we drill a hole and force water into it with a ram, causing the rock to crack.
2. Steam fracturing. Much as with hydraulic fracturing, but using steam.
3. Mechanical jack hammer, usually pneumatic, but sometimes hydraulic.
4. Explosives. On Mars, we could inject liquid oxygen and methane and detonate to mixture with a spark plug.

Musk has put a lot of money into boring machines. But from what I have seen, these are all far too heavy to ship to Mars. Sedimentry rocks on Mars appear to be sandstone, which is very soft. The planet lacks the techtonic processes that usually give rise to metamorphic rocks and has a shallower geothermal gradient. Sonif we can find a region filled with sedimentry rocks, the digging process could be as simple as carving out the rock with a mechanical shovel.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-12-19 12:19:02)

tahanson43206 · 2023-12-19 12:27:33

For Calliban re #1534

Thanks for inviting the readers to think about how a microwave drill works ... I asked Google, and it's first response was this paper from 2002.

I have ** no ** idea if this paper is describing what we now understand is a drilling method that is replacing conventional rotary bits.

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio … wave_Drill

Abstract and Figures
We present a drilling method that is based on the phenomenon of local hot spot generation by near-field microwave radiation. The microwave drill is implemented by a coaxial near-field radiator fed by a conventional microwave source. The near-field radiator induces the microwave energy into a small volume in the drilled material under its surface, and a hot spot evolves in a rapid thermal-runaway process. The center electrode of the coaxial radiator itself is then inserted into the softened material to form the hole. The method is applicable for drilling a variety of nonconductive materials. It does not require fast rotating parts, and its operation makes no dust or noise.
Scheme illustrating the principle under- lying the operation of a microwave drill, includ- ing a transition from a rectangular to a coaxial waveguide, a tuning mirror, and a movable center electrode. The electrode functions as both a monopole antenna and a drilling bit. The hot spot generated by the near-field micro- waves softens the material and enables the drilling bit penetration into it.

(th)

Void · 2023-12-21 21:26:41

Well.........Hmmmm...........I think no has been my best friend. As I get older it is so much easier. A pleasure even.

Void · 2023-12-24 12:27:12

This is of some interest to me: https://www.reddit.com/r/IsaacArthur/co … _elevator/
Quote:

Go to IsaacArthur
r/IsaacArthur
•
4 yr. ago
tomkalbfus
Ceres Space Elevator
I think this would be the most feasible body on which we could build a space elevator. Ceres rotates once every 9 hours. If we can make this elevator long enough, it can fling material back toward Earth or the Moon. Ceres contains a lot of rotational energy, if we can tap it, we can send payloads toward the inner solar system, supplying volitiles where they are needed. We can hit the Moon with them.

Share

I think Calliban has expressed some similar notions.

Exceptional Asteroids again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e … _asteroids
Image Quote:

There is often more to learn.

Some of the larger outer belt objects will be icy and have spin, so a need trick to send volatiles to dryer inner belt objects, to Mars/Phobos/Deimos, and to our Moon, The Moon with sufficient volatiles would be the biggest treasure of all, after Earth of course.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-25 08:59:53)

Void · 2023-12-25 09:00:33

A quote from the just previous post:

Exceptional Asteroids again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e … _asteroids
Image Quote:
There is often more to learn.
Some of the larger outer belt objects will be icy and have spin, so a need trick to send volatiles to dryer inner belt objects, to Mars/Phobos/Deimos, and to our Moon, The Moon with sufficient volatiles would be the biggest treasure of all, after Earth of course.

Vesta is mostly dry and volcanic it appears.

2 Pallas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_Pallas
Similar to Ceres, but less water it seems.

10 Hygiea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_Hygiea
Quote:

However, observations in 2019 suggest Hygiea had suffered a head-on collision which had disrupted it, with its re-accretion resulting in its present spherical shape. No deep basins are visible in the VLT images, indicating that any large craters must have flat floors, consistent with an icy C-type

My hope for this one is that the disruptive impact may have mixed the materials so that a distribution is accessible on and near the surface.

704 Interamnia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/704_Interamnia
Quote:

the resulting density calculation (1.98 ± 0.68 g·cm−3) is not precise enough to definitely infer Interamnia's composition, but the presence of hydrated materials at the surface and its overall spectral similarities to Ceres suggest that it is likely an icy body. The absence of an affiliated asteroid family implies that Interamnia has not suffered a giant impact within the past 3 billion years,[7] in contrast to 4 Vesta and 10 Hygeia.[8][9]

87 Sylvia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/87_Sylvia
Quote:

Physical characteristics
Sylvia is very dark in color and probably has a primitive composition, though with some internal differentiation. The discovery of its moons made possible an accurate measurement of the asteroid's mass, density and mass distribution. Its density is low (around 1.4 times the density of water), indicating that the asteroid is porous; best-fit models estimate it had an original composition by volume of 35% rock, 13% ice and 52% internal voids, and that today it consists of a pristine anhydrous outer layer, and a differentiated interior, with meltwater having percolated inward so that the porosity of the rock is filled with ice out to a radius of about 46 km, then ice-free porous rock out to about 104 km.[3]
Sylvia is a fairly fast rotator, turning about its axis every 5.2 hours, giving it an equatorial rotation velocity of about 65 m/s, almost half the escape velocity.
Sylvia's shape is flattened and elongated (a/b ≈ 1.45 ; a/c ≈ 1.84) and somewhat irregular. However, its surface has not been imaged well enough for individual features to be resolved.

So, my observation are that the Sub-Dwarf-Planet objects are diverse in history and qualities which suggests that trade between them and other worlds may make sense.

While some think that Space Elevators may be good for Ceres, I wonder if one or two of these may be even more convenient.

Isaac Arthurs notion of utilizing the objects spin to fling payload to a destination may apply to these as well.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-26 20:37:05)

Void · 2023-12-25 16:10:17

I have this notion for some of the asteroids in the image in the previous post:

The magnetic sail turned on and off could spin up the asteroid and then that stored spin may be used to toss stuff into the inner or outer solar system, to some degree.

Done

Void · 2023-12-26 20:23:55

This from the previous post:

Well, it is rather primitive, but a sort of a start.

The two cylinders on the poles North and South will allow interception of sunlight, expanding the area of reception.

The disk which may be part disk and part space elevators, may serve as to counterweight the cylinders. Also they may allow for spin games of capturing spin from the solar wind and to then fling payloads.

At each pole would be a shady spot that leaked volatile molecules could condense to solids at.

This is a nice article: https://space-travel.blog/megasat-ba7ff8486bdd
Quote:

Ceres megasatellite settlement that could grow bigger than Earth
Pekka Janhunen
Space Travel Blog
Pekka Janhunen
·
Follow
Published in
Space Travel Blog
·
9 min read
·
Jul 7, 2021

I suppose I am suggesting that the structures I suggest can be associated with the concepts in the article, maybe.

Quote:

Ceres has so many potential building materials that the megasatellite could eventually have more living area than Earth. For example, a 10¹⁸ kg megasatellite would be able to host 100 billion people and, in material terms, only 0.1% of Ceres’ mass would be utilised in order to build it.

I am seeing numbers like 750 km to 1000 km for the space elevator length. That could be in error. But I think that if Ceres might do, other smaller asteroid may do very well better.

The critical material seems to be Nitrogen. I am thinking that there are ways to stretch it. I wond go into the tedium of that just now. But maybe a double cylinder with a low pressure Low N2 content in the upper or center parts and higher Nitrogen levels in the parts between the double cylinders.

These are again some of the candidates: A quote from the just previous post:

Exceptional Asteroids again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e … _asteroids

It is hard to say if some of these smaller asteroids will provide the Nitrogen and other materials wanted, but Ceres and the outer solar system may.

So, you might over time spin an asteroid up to its limits of breaking apart, using the solar wind and magnetic sails.

And then they could spin launch materials to various other worlds.

Yes, I have used many ideas from others. I think I seldom if ever original ideas have, but sometime try to get something by mixing ideas together.

The worst that can happen is someone finds serious flaws. But if they find some flaws that may lead to further solutions.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-27 10:34:26)

Void · 2023-12-27 10:37:17

In the previous post, I supposed magnetic sails for the spin devices, but I guess photon sails might work as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_sai … e%20thrust.

In any case rather than to propel a spacecraft in a rather linear fashion you could spin a flywheel up, and then use the flywheel to help launch payloads. Some asteroids may make good components for such flywheels. And not all asteroids are in the asteroid belt, which may be of some value.

This would upgrade the value of a "Stony" asteroid. I am aware that asteroids may very likely fly apart if you spin them up too much, but we have the work of some others to suggest how to combat that.

This then could be your flywheel: https://phys.org/news/2022-12-rubble-pi … itats.html
Image Quote:

The sun has an output of inertia, as photons and also the solar wind. If that could be harvested with sails then the device could store spin inertia.

You could perhaps "Nest" more protective habitation inside of this, but this "Flywheel" would also provide some significant buffering of the harsh space environments.

So, provided you could import some of the structure such as Carbon based materials you could turn these potential hazards to Earth into useful machines. While you could influence spin, you could also influence orbits to keep the Earth safe.

I would think that the biggest hazards to Earth might justify being altered first.

Any "Sails" would depend from the outsides of the "Flywheel" and would be modulated/articulated to selectively react to the solar output so as to provide a motive force appropriate to desirers of spin and orbit alterations.

And then we may consider adding some kind of catapults to this system such as mass drivers, and tether methods to in part project payloads to a destination.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-27 10:51:42)

Void · 2023-12-27 17:56:06

We know that there is likely to be small objects here and there in most parts of the solar system, so developing a game plan for this may extend outward and inward from the asteroid belts objects.

Some additional machine methods to consider in dealing with large spin objects would be Casting as in fly fishing, and perhaps a sling as in killing giants in the bible.

As for hooking objects from flight into the spinning objects, for now I consider that to be too ambitious. But maybe someday.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-27 17:57:41)

Void · 2023-12-28 15:42:12

I intend to move onto canals, but first want to think a bit more about the materials of the previous posts. I want to think about how to do a startup for a Carbon net plan for rubble pile asteroids. How you may start with the least amount of expenditure of effort, to get useful results and if you could develop the device into a habitable structure that also can spin launch payloads.

From post #1451:

This then could be your flywheel: https://phys.org/news/2022-12-rubble-pi … itats.html
Image Quote:
The sun has an output of inertia, as photons and also the solar wind. If that could be harvested with sails then the device could store spin inertia.
You could perhaps "Nest" more protective habitation inside of this, but this "Flywheel" would also provide some significant buffering of the harsh space environments.

I am thinking that you might reduce the rigor applied to the Carbon Net by only spinning up to about 1/5 g.
What I have read is that for adults using bedrest simulations a period of time in a centrifuge each day may allow fairly good health.

You could have centrifuges in a spacecraft that had been "Landed" inside of the rubble cylinder.

But I am also considering the building of a ring around the outside of the rubble cylinder, as to have a greater g force, maybe even up to 1 g. But prior to that you could start with some sort of gondola's hung on elevator cables that could move inward and outward to achieve a needed g force. These may need heavy radiation shielding and may have relatively small gym spaces inside of them. Ideally, they might have water in the walls of them. Over time, you could eventually make "Baton" Extensions so that you would be a bit like the notions of GW Johnson and Vast Space. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vast_(company) Image Quote:

The above is a picture of a very modest start for a spin gravity device. My impression is that it will spin end over end to experiment with some low level of spin gravity.

So, the rubble cylinder would be a very large hub, and you would then put in the spokes for a classical toroidal space station. The question is would you put in the ring of the space station? I guess that would be according to desires and abilities.

I am going to deviate from the original intent of the Carbon Net spin gravity device with rubble fill. I will use Phobos and Deimos as examples as the at least resemble rubble asteroids, even if they may or may not be such.

Rubble objects will come in many sizes, and the contents of them are likely to range from dust to big chunks. I think that it would be far too ambitious to try to do a whole moon. Instead, you might find a way to screen what you get from such a moon to sizes desired, and to the place that material into the Carbon Net. So, you would need an extraction and transfer method of mining the materials.

If you, over time took all the fines away from a Martian moon you might be left with big chunks with caves between them. So, in that case anchor the big chunks together and modify the caves to be useful. But probably no spin gravity.

But you would have spin gravity on the station(s) that you built, starting with a Carbon Net structure. The interior of the rubble cylinder at 1/5th g may be a good place to process the mined materials. In the case of some of these you might want to use them as spin launch devices. As long as Mars does not have a magnetic field you could harness the solar wind to spin them up, and to modify orbits. You could try to use light sails instead, but the nature of the solar wind with magnetic sails is probably the sail will simply expend in size as you get into more outer portions of the solar wind.

So, it is thought so far, that a magnetic sail that would work near Earth would work as well near Mars, or Ceres and the Asteroid Belt.

So, anyway next post is likely to be about canals.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-28 16:11:17)

Void · 2023-12-28 20:20:54

It turns out I want to post about Tesla Bot:

https://www.reddit.com/r/singularity/co … ays_tesla/
Quote:

Tesla Optimus Bot Update: Sandy Munro Says Tesla Bot Can Do Anything Workers Can Do
Robotics

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZ8S4N1kBhU
Quote:

Tesla Optimus Bot Can Do Any Job In Tesla Factory - Sandy Munro; 2024 Hopes?
Randy Kirk
18.7K subscribers

I watched the first one but will watch the 2nd one now.

I think the use of robotics should be very productive for asteroid facilities, especially earlier on when life support will be scant and minimal.

For a Carbon net filled with regolith from an asteroid, robots might be able to convert such raw materials into processed resources, so that such a station, maybe a spin station could be upgraded from rustic to fantastic over time.

And of course canals and everything else. Snow removal? Manipulating multiple elements in a solar concentration device?

Well, it appears that if I live 5 - 20 more years I am going to see some stuff.

Done

Well, this may have stronger accuracy and is still encouraging: https://www.torquenews.com/14335/sandy- … man-can-do Quote:

Sandy Munro Says the Tesla Optimus Bot "Can Do Anything On a Tesla Assembly Line That a Man Can Do"
Sandy Munro was seen recently talking about the Tesla humanoid robot and said that it will be able to do anything on a Tesla assembly line that a man can do. This has big implications for Tesla.
Profile picture for user Jeremy JohnsonPosted: December 28, 2023 - 1:13PM
Author: Jeremy Johnson

For some reason the 1st video was pulled. These days it is hard to know why something like that happens. But it seems that Sandy Monroe does not claim to have extra information, but a good reputation and is trusted when he says Optimus can do a lot or may be able to do a lot.

Of course, I have an interest in the Tesla Bot to work in space. I think Lunar Gravity and perhaps Artificial Gravity at perhaps 1/5 g might be good environments for it. After all it may be able to lift 6 to 5 times more weight in those situations and would not be encumbered by a balloon suit.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-29 09:22:54)

Void · 2023-12-29 09:35:13

Canals continuing from another topic posts #24 through #28 http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 38#p217638 (Index» Science, Technology, and Astronomy» Technological Cumulativeness, (Accumulation).)

Previously Earth was the only focus, now I want to add Mars, Ceres, Callisto, Titan, and Pluto. They have various characteristics, and I want to try them out further.

Because of historical claims of canals on Mars, many people will reject the notion, but that is their problem. If they do not have the ability to think past that then they do not have much in my opinion.

The go to structure usually mentioned for Mars is Domes. It seems futuristic, but in my opinion a Canal Segment makes more sense. On Mars Permafrost is one reason why. If you are going to live on Mars, you will want water. Water will either be from ice or possibly from a drilled well. In reality every part of Mars has permafrost in its subsurface unless geothermal is strong somewhere. Some permafrost will be icy, and some will not be icy.

In my notions, I tend to favor the retention of liquid water in the bottoms of canal segments. To hold water, then icy permafrost can make the bottom non-permeable.

Places where ice is likely to exist are high latitudes presumed to be more capable of being replenished, and mid latitudes, thought to be a fossil presence from another era's climate. It seems possible now that there is some of the mid latitude ice extending down almost to the equator.

A possible exception to this is: https://earthsky.org/space/scientists-f … 25%20water. Quote:

Scientists find water in Mars’ Grand Canyon
Posted by
Paul Scott Anderson
December 24, 2021

We do not have a strong definition of what sort of water this could be and how it is there. It may be a good place for a first settlement or not, we do not know.

There is a greater certainty towards the mid latitude ices so I will work with that as readers will be less rebellious about it.

So, a little about this ice: https://time.com/5100356/mars-water-ice-sheets/
Quote:

Researchers discovered massive ice sheets in the planet’s mid-latitudes that are believed to extend up to 100 meters deep and contain distinguishable layers that, “could preserve a record of Mars’ past climate,” the report says. “They might even be a useful source of water for future human exploration of the red planet.”

In this post #1, you will find various materials including information on ice on Mars: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 13#p190313

This is an old reference: https://www.space.com/30502-mars-giant- … y-mro.html
Image Quote: y8wdkgyDUgZPW7grfHTgZQ-650-80.jpg.webp
Quote:

The ice the scientists found measures 130 feet (40 m) thick and lies just beneath the dirt, or regolith, or Mars.
"It extends down to latitudes of 38 degrees. This would be like someone in Kansas digging in their backyard and finding ice as thick as a 13-story building that covers an area the size of Texas and California combined," Bramson said.

I think that much deeper ice deposits exist, but this one could work.

I can think of two types of canals:
1) Surface Canals. (These would need a covering of some type)
2) Subsurface Canals. (These would actually be tunnels that would have a regolith floor)

Obviously, all of them need protections from the normal Martian environment if they are to host liquid water.

They will not have to host liquid water but probably will in many cases.

I need a break....

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-29 10:40:37)

Void · 2023-12-29 11:24:35

Subsurface Canals, mentioned in the previous post, might be maintained near the melting point of water, with an accumulation of melt water possible.

They would simply be tunnels, ice tubes well under the surface of the ice deposit. They would not require very much pressurization above Martian ambient air pressure of the surface. This would probably work better at low altitudes than high, so maybe better in the Northern hemisphere.

This would be a means to extract water without removing the overlying dry regolith. These tunnels may be sort of temporary as the ice may sag over time, I am not sure. They would provide makeup water, and also allow some study of the minerals below the ice sheets. The chemistry of the water may reveal minerals desired. If a hint of such might show up, then perhaps test drilling may confirm such.

I think that a great amount of minerals on Mars are likely obscured from view by ice and regolith deposits.

The tubes may be passable by robots, even floating robots. The power source, I think is preferred to be solar. Melting ice to water should not be a critical need in the short term, so if a winter or a dust storm happen then you just mothball the process for a while. During operations chemical farming in the water of the tubes would not be out of the question.

Surfacing canals would likely melt all the way down to the regolith and would need coverings of some kind. They could use solar, but it would be great to have nuclear fission as well.

They may have an air space above covered by a Quonset hut like arch protection or may simply be covered with ice with a surface protection. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quonset_hut

I would like to look towards a Pykrete element for the structure of the arch coverings.

In some cases, the air space above may allow watercraft to pass though the canal, surface and subsurface. In the case of a ice covered segment only subsurface traffic.

On occasion a lake might be created, perhaps with a protected ice covering. Salts from the water of the canal system could be rejected into these and these might become thermal storage sites, using salt gradients as to prohibit water convection by heat.

Attempts at storage of heat in the ground might also be included. Maybe even geothermal is possible if drilling can go deep enough.

This topic may cover some of that possibility: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=10388
"Index» Science, Technology, and Astronomy» Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)"

I think it would be nice if solar panels could flip over so as to present their faces to the ground when it is not a time to collect solar energy such as night, winter, and dust storms.

Chemical farming may be possible in any melted water. I have not mentioned transparent greenhouses but of course those could be tried as well to make things nicer.

Another break...........

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-29 11:48:02)

Void · 2023-12-29 12:06:14

I would like to deal with other worlds in this regard.

Ceres might have deep ice layers that could be tunneled though, but for the surface due to low gravity I think a lid on a canal would need to be anchored somehow into the surface or have big weights for it to anchor to.

Callisto. A bit like Mars, but of course no atmosphere. One thing I have been interested in for both Ceres and Callisto is a half trough solar collector:

This may work well enough for Ceres and Callisto, as they have very small axis tilts. The hope is that the vertical wall, being of ice or icy regolith, could be strong enough. I make note of cold temperatures and low gravity on those worlds.

A certain amount of movable structure may be required at the focal point. Possibly just a cart that can travel left and right, but not over the edge. The troughs would run east to west, I think, and perhaps most ideal near the equator.

So, this may allow useful solar power on those worlds. Photovoltaic, or thermal.

The trough made of frozen regolith may have an aluminum foil placed over it to provide the reflector.

For our Moon or Mercury, you probably need a full trough, and a mechanical tower to push up to the focus.

Nuclear to power a world with canals is not prohibited, I just like to see if solar can be of use as well.

For Titan, huge canals could be made with part pykrete coverings. And so, for titan you need nuclear of some kind or beamed power from orbit. Solar with mirrors is not out of the question at Saturn.

For Pluto, I guess solar is probably futile. I suppose the hope would be to make Pluto resemble Titan. Give it a magnetic field and add heat using nuclear I am guessing, but it is a different animal than Titan, so it will need its own variations of solutions.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-29 12:32:51)

Void · 2023-12-29 12:34:27

Back to Earth next, I guess, I am thinking about the wind belt insider of North America.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File … es_map.jpg

Not sure I understand these very well: (Image Quote):

Thats a start. Break time!

Well, if I am to believe that map, then Minnesota is much better for wind than I thought.

That and east/west double-sided solar panels may work well for Minnesota in the winter. That and rooftop installations of solar panels.

I am really thinking about air batteries and variable thermal pools as major energy storage methods.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryogenic_energy_storage Quote:

Cryogenic energy storage

Quote:

Grid energy storage
Process
When it is cheaper (usually at night), electricity is used to cool air from the atmosphere to -195 °C using the Claude Cycle to the point where it liquefies. The liquid air, which takes up one-thousandth of the volume of the gas, can be kept for a long time in a large vacuum flask at atmospheric pressure. At times of high demand for electricity, the liquid air is pumped at high pressure into a heat exchanger, which acts as a boiler. Air from the atmosphere at ambient temperature, or hot water from an industrial heat source, is used to heat the liquid and turn it back into a gas. The massive increase in volume and pressure from this is used to drive a turbine to generate electricity.[3]
Efficiency
In isolation the process is only 25% efficient, but this is increased to around 50% when used with a low-grade cold store, such as a large gravel bed, to capture the cold generated by evaporating the cryogen.[4] The cold is re-used during the next refrigeration cycle.[3]
Efficiency is further increased when used in conjunction with a power plant or other source of low-grade heat that would otherwise be lost to the atmosphere. Highview Power claims an AC to AC round-trip efficiency of 70%, by using an otherwise waste heat source at 115 °C.[5] The IMechE (Institution of Mechanical Engineers) agrees that these estimates for a commercial-scale plant are realistic.[6] However this number was not checked or confirmed by independent professional institutions.

So, wind at night and solar in winter may be effective at generating liquid air, I am guessing.

I am wondering if a fracked well could be good at storing the cold in some way. If not then gravel beds I guess.

Now then for low grade heat to do a phase transition from liquid to gas, I am considering pools of water with roofs and perhaps solar panels over the roof. A sort of floating solar.

I have previously considered the water to be heated as high as 90 degF or 33 degC. Ideally the surface water would remain warm even if the heat is taken out of the lower water to vaporize liquid air. I wanted to limit the water to temperatures where chemical farming might be possible. An additional and possibly valuable feature would be to use the solar roof as a condenser to condense vapors that leave the surface of the water into a water condensate of reasonably purity.

If water and energy storage were the only issues, then you might heat the water to almost the boiling point of water.

A problem that exists is that the best wind and solar may be in places with insufficient water to support a population that could use that power..

So, I am hoping for a scheme that can provide a better recycle of water available at an energetic location.

Pipelines and even better canals could move some water to those locations as well.

Before people with water get scared, I am more thinking that chemical farming in these solar cisterns would allow a pretty good recycling of the water, and chemical farming, so the need to dump irrigation water onto dry land crops would be reduced.

I think that can be coming.

Finally canals even if covered by water recycle covers might even become a form of water transportation. I don't think the idea of the canals would be to move masses of water, but just make-up water for what is lost. Recycling will not be 100%.

I don't intend to convert existing rivers into such canals, rather to dig them across relatively flat lands, in general. If the productivity of the canals is enough, then the cost would be justified. Maybe this can happen somewhere on our planet, if not in the USA. The USA is currently under the occupation of an elite that uses environmentalism to enforce an economic hierarchy, I think. But they, just like us will take a dirt nap someday. They are not eternal either.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-29 14:37:17)

Void · 2023-12-30 10:07:54

I have a number of notions on my mind, but just now I want to think about animated solar power equipment.

The word planted is different than the word animated. And so, then Plants and Animals.

We have power plants. Maybe we should have power animals.

Tesla Bot and other humanoid robots are machine animals, I might suppose. Most of our machine animals so far involve the large use of wheels, these new machine animals are different.

A Venus Flytrap is a plant that has some animation. A sponge is an animal that is planted. Really there is some animation in any organism, and organisms have boundaries of where they go, so they are to a degree planted. The Earth has been the boundary of even the most mobile organisms that we know of.

Anyway, for the moment thinking of sun seeking machine animals, we do have both photovoltaic and photothermal devices that can track the sun.

That is a machine animal seeking nutrition. But what about a machine animal that avoids danger. What about one that provides nurturing of another organism?

I read recently of a solar farm that was wrecked in a hailstorm. I think it was in Nebraska. It would have been nice if it could have taken measures to protect itself. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/nextdoor … h549mKmh4s

As for solar machine animals protecting another organism, "Agrivoltaics": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrivoltaics

Something more popped into my head, where maybe these machines could capture rainfall and store it in small cisterns, when convenient.

As it happens, I worked with balances both electronic and mechanical. Mechanical uses counterweights, so I think that technology might be employed in such machine animals.

So, the machine animals may be able to bend and fold to respond to weather conditions, and also to nurture crops grown below them.

I am going to start with the German created bifacial vertical east/west solar panels. It may or may not be the best first try, we can see.
https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2022/07/11/ … v-systems/
Image Quote:

A relatively easy way to animate these would be to have a pivot and be able to roll the panels, and in that manner only need one face of the solar panels. It would be east/west sun following.

But such a device could respond to weather conditions.

High Winds may likely involve storm conditions: So, roll to a flat position with the solar cells either facing the sky or the ground.

Hail: We might say we would have one face of the panels that would be the solar cells and the other as the shield face. Orientation with cells on the leeward of the impacts of hail, and also somewhat of a vertical profile.

Snow: Vertical with the cells facing either east or west. Possibly able to dump snow off of the cells by rolling for cells face down. So, facilitating cleaning.

Dust Storm: Cells facing down.

Rain: Shield Face up, and collecting rain water into a cistern.

Germany is a low light environment and humid. For Semi-Arid, you might value the shade and the water collection so much that you would put these things much closer to each other. Less Spacing. In such a case you might protect the crops below by creating a canopy of flat presented panels that come close to each other. This might protect from frosts. You might even have anti-solar cells on the shield and rain collecting side, to get just a bit of electricity at night.

You might also use a similar trick to protect the crops from excessive sunlight.

This of course will cool the ground by shading.

This is a more wheel oriented machine animal that is planted, I guess. But actuators may be similar to those for Tesla Bot as you don't need to spin the things over and over like a motor, Just have almost 360 degrees of roll.

Bearings will not need to be dealing with high spin.

And then we get to Teala Bot itself. We probably face a good deflation of manufactured products such as such as the Tesla Bot itself, and also the solar machine animals.

Machines probably do not require exotic substances for the motors.

Here might be a partial terraform solution for Mars: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=9563

Such machine animals would need to be able to walk. I almost only did that topic for fun. It is amusing.

People have suggested putting dust onto the polar caps of Mas, I thought instead that you could put solar machine animals there. And then they could shelter themselves from the harsh winter or just walk towards the equator

But that will require a very high level of the art, I guess.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-30 11:01:49)

Void · 2023-12-30 12:08:39

Well, there may be yet something more to append to the last post. Fog Deserts. https://www.dw.com/en/why-life-thrives- … r%20beetle.

https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/article … c9nr10808d

So maybe the shield side could be water collecting at night.

So, i guess the fog collector provides assistance for condensation and collection of the tiny droplets: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=VRDGAR

So, where appropriate solar machine animals might include something like this on their shield sides, opposite of the solar cell sides.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-30 12:22:59)

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