Mars Balloon stratospheric research station analogs, HAPS or ULDB

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-12-24 18:43:41

Thales Group a French multinational company with aerospace, transportation equipment has a page called MARSBalloon 2024, its some kind of outreach for students and kids but if it could stay in the sky for longer or it was a little more complex and flew a little higher say 34 km or 112,000 ft altitude then it makes perfect sense and is a match for conditions transmitted by Perseverance from Jezero

MARSBalloon is an exciting project for school students and science clubs to carry out Mars-analogue science experiments without having to put on a spacesuit!
https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/futuremartians
Our balloon will carry over 150 student experiments to an altitude of 30km, more than twice the height of commercial airliners, where they will be above 99% of Earth’s atmosphere. Along the way they will experience conditions very similar to the surface of Mars including temperatures of -50°C, pressures 1/100th that of sea level and an increased radiation dose.

January 2024: Announcement of 2024 launch opportunity
29th February 2024: registration deadline

HAPS can also be described as high-altitude pseudo-satellites offering a different service to a Terrestrial Radio station transmitting from the ground.

The troposphere is the lowest layer of the atmosphere of Earth, this is too low to fly and a Balloon needs to go above this, the 'Troposphere' It contains most of the total mass of the planetary atmosphere. Weather readings can be strange once you enter the Stratosphere and there is a temperature inversion is in contrast to the troposphere, winds can get fast near 60 m/s or 220 km/h; 130 mph. Lockheed produced a of solar powered craft as long endurance flight could be compared to the feats of suborbital spacecraft
This is a 200 page read
https://web.archive.org/web/20230320161 … 005126.pdf
A Mars Analogue station inside a high altitude Balloon will be reasonably accessed for maintenance and easily accessed for new experiments and upgrades compared with building a Space Station around the Moon or building super expensive manned villages on the Lunar surface and trying to use them as a 'Mars Analogue'

Geostationary balloon satellites are an idea to use high-altitude balloons that would float in the mid-stratosphere or maybe even higher at a fixed point over the Earth's surface and thereby also act as an atmospheric satellite. World View Enterprisesis a private American near space exploration and technology company working on Balloons, Taber MacCallum, Alan Stern, and former NASA astronaut Mark Kelly worked with the company. Poynter and MacCallum left World View and founded their space-balloon-tourism company company Space Perspective, there is also a Japanese Space-Balloon company, another Balloon space tourist company Deimos-One and a company called Zero 2 Infinity from Spain. With aircraft it has been very expensive to fly high altitude Aircraft turbojet, X-planes or Migs from this height and aircraft stay in the sky for less time than a long duration balloon. A height of 29km to 41 km altitude on Earth, a measurement of 95,144 feet or 134,514 feet can be somewhat similar to the conditions at the Mars surface. HAPS which are floating radio stations in the upper atmosphere, from the upper Troposphere through the tropopause border and into the Stratosphere can fly at an altitude of 20 to 50 km above waypoints, for weeks. These HAPS radio relay station and cameras can be used disaster response, for oceanography, border security, maritime patrol disaster management and rescue or agricultural observation. NASA Pathfinder, Airbus Zephyr, NASA Helios, BAE Systems PHASA-35 are advanced platforms that can sometimes match the conditions of Balloons but most Aircraft will not fly as high as a 'Weather Balloon'. The Long duration flight of the Chinese balloon incident flew at 60,000–65,000 feet 18–20 km, a long duration Mars Analogue Balloon would need to fly higher again.

On Earth we have
Very interesting 'Balloon' and Submarine developments as we don't have many true "space analogues" on Earth with assumed conditions of a celestial body such as the Titan, Europa, Moon or Mars.

An environment can be set up inside the Balloon to be the coldest and driest areas in the world, inside one ball there could be a smaller biosphere keep some plant or animals alive. Some claim they will soon fly Balloons for an entire year in an environment with radiation similar to Mars conditions, dirt and ice might be put inside a Balloon to match conditions of a subglacial pool, you might monitor microbes that live with almost no oxygen. You might put dirt in the Balloon with extremophiles, basic organism, microbial life, spores, fungus, complex organisms within the soils, perchlorates, sulphides, jarosite, hematite, and see what goo and what Crystals grow and how long term radiation changes them. The project would not be as ambitious as the 'Mars Gravity Biosatellite' but if they can keep Balloons up for an entire year, maybe you could put some type of Mice or Guinea pig up there in the Balloon with water and food supply and monitor any biological changes in real time, the Balloon would be subject to large temperature swings from day to night as you have on Martian regions. Mars radiation is similar to the interior of the International Space Station (ISS), which is far higher than surface Earth levels however Mars has gravity while the ISS Astronauts suffer other conditions in zero-G which they might not suffer in Mars Gravity. On a Balloon a Mouse might be exposed to slightly higher levels of toxic salts as a safety experiment for astronauts and add slight higher level of hydrogen peroxide throughout the atmosphere, this will be cheaper than an ISS analogue and Millions upon Millions of Dollars cheaper than building an Analogue on the Moon which has little or no relation to conditions on Mars, on the Balloon one could also do a study of algae, plants, flowers, microbes, lichens etc and other material which could be used as future Biofuel. You might even test conditions of radiation exposure on the Balloon to troglophiles like a Bat or a Spider because if humans send animals to Mars it is possible they might not be outdoor animals but go in and out of caves to shelter from radiation. The Balloon might contain a tiny biosphere a bowl within a bowl, the outer bowl or sphere could have very fine dust put inside or try to match the dryness of Mars and Hyper arid conditions of Mars. the Balloon could try match conditions measured by Curiosity which had measured Mars water content and relative humidity.
https://mars.nasa.gov/resources/20296/c … er-report/

It could lead to more scientific theory about what possible type of Microbe is possibly making Methane.

We already have lists of plant and animal creatures that resist cancers radiation or are more resistant to cold and toxins, cosmic rays, UV radiation etc Spores and Germ and Fungus we normally consider toxic on Earth but be used to generate useful chemistry. Some plant and animals might be selected on long duration 'Balloon' flight with a natural radiation “Damage suppressor”
It is possible Caves would also be used as shelter, out in the Sun of a Mars Biosphere the Scorpions, Fruit flies, Mummichog and microscopic bacteria can resist high level of radiation.
I know I can be accused of maybe obsessing over the Lowlands, but if we avoid the High Plateau, the Mountains, the Highlands, and go to spots like Hellas Basin we will have a thicker denser atmosphere, more minerals, protection against radiation and possible access to water. Mars might one day have small Aquafarms and artificial made biosphere ponds creating chemistry and food stuff, some small fish, zooplankton are radiation resistant and a major foodsource of other fish, and meat eating plant, and with many species like bdelloids. However certain ultraviolet rays are less abundant in the Martian atmosphere

only one solar energetic particle measured
https://mars.nasa.gov/resources/5770/ra … s-on-mars/

Only one solar particle event has been observed by RAD on the surface of Mars, and it was rather weak. Researchers had expected to see more solar particle events, but for unknown reasons, the sun is currently much less active than during recent peaks in the solar-activity cycle.

'Radiation on Mars Lower than Expected'
https://www.spacesafetymagazine.com/spa … s-suggest/

Hassler was reluctant to reveal further details as he believes additional verification of the data needs to be carried out. As the first radiation measurements ever carried out on the surface of another celestial body suggest, the radiation levels Curiosity detected on Mars are about the same as those experienced by crews aboard the International Space Station.

Anything grown at the conditions of ISS could probably grown on a farm inside an artificial Biosphere on planet Mars.

Ultraviolet Radiation From a Plant Perspective: The Plant-Microorganism Context
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7769811/

Ecology and resistance to UV light and antibiotics of microbial communities on UV cabins in the dermatology service of a Spanish hospital
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-40996-8

Near Space Labs, a company that does Earth observation and stratosphere images
https://nearspacelabs.com/blog/ai-power … in-forces/
a provider of high-resolution, high-frequency earth imagery is proud to announce its latest partnership with Coldpress AI, the largest marketplace of curated machine learning datasets for computer vision applications. Near Space Labs is adding an additional layer of data to Coldpress AI’s dataset marketplace, enabling a smoother, more intuitive exploration of geospatial imagery across more locations than ever before.

Columbia Scientific Balloon Facility
http://www.csbf.nasa.gov/balloons.html
development of an Ultra Long Duration Balloon (ULDB)

another one here -

The Mars Environment Analogue Platform long duration balloon flight
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 7709001987
MEAP/P-BACE is a joint project between the Esrange Space Center, Sweden, the University of Bern, Switzerland and the Swedish Institute of Space Physics (IRF), Kiruna, Sweden.

'mission was to fly a stratospheric balloon on a semicircular trajectory around the North Pole in summer 2008.'

Summary and outlook
The MEAP (Mars Environment Analogue Platform) mission successfully qualified platform systems for future long duration balloon flights around the North Pole during summer. The scientific payload P-BACE also fulfilled all of its objectives.

HAPS or ULDB might be used on Mars to reflect to repeat radio signals from a ground colony, it could help long distance colonies remain in constant radio communication with each other.

Instead of using the Moon as a Mars Analogue experiments platform and then filling a Moon biosphere with another sphere of 'Mars Pressures' it could be done on HAPS or ULDB platforms while exposing organics and chemistry to radiation.
Argon at Earth Atmosphere has Freezing or Melting Point at 1 atm -308.5 F , -189.2 C
On Earth, Formic acid Boiling point 101 C or 213.8 F and a Freezing point 8.0 C or 46.4 F, Water in Sea freezes -2.4, Carbon tetrachloride Boiling point 76.8 Freezing point –29.8 C
50% vacuum = 380 torr = 50.8 kPa abs 99.9% vacuum = 1 torr = 1.3 kPa abs
CO2 a Boiling Point the sublimation point 194.6 K or -78 °C or -109.24 °F
At 119,500 feet or 36.4 km Earth has a pressure 0.01178 kPa and Water will have a boiling point -147 C or -232.6 F, but it sublimates not boils
At a higher thinner end of 42 km or 137,795.2 feet the pressure is 0.000019 kPa or 1.9233e-7 bars or 0.0000027 C and Water boils at near zero K as soon as sun hits water it will boil like a comet, there no air pressure to prevent the water molecules from turning into vapor.
Below 1 atm Water sublimates or 101.3 kPa
At a lower end 25 km or approx 82,000 feet pressure is 1.29 Kpa or 0.0129 bars or 0.1874 psi Water will maybe just maybe boil at -19 C or -2.4 F if its salty and stick it might be a liquid or exist frozen with just the right conditions, episodes of liquid water can appear up to 11 mbar? Use of spacecraft data to derive regions on Mars where liquid water would be stable https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.031581098

We find that liquid water would be stable within the Hellas and Argyre basin and over the northern lowlands equatorward of about 40°. The location with the maximum period of stable conditions for liquid water is in the southeastern portion of Utopia Planitia, where 34% of the year liquid water would be stable if it were present. Locations of stability appear to correlate with the distribution of valley networks.

Craters within the Hellas Basin
' The morphology of many features in the Hellas Basin and its surroundings strongly suggests the presence of ice and glaciers.
For example, in the foreground and around the crater rim, polygons of patterned ground are visible which indicates the presence of water – this pattern occurs when fine grained and porous wet soil freezes.'
https://sci.esa.int/web/mars-express/-/ … llas-basin
NASA Discovers Salty Liquid Water Flows Intermittently on Mars Today, Bolstering Chance for Life
https://www.universetoday.com/122522/na … -for-life/
Utilizing spectroscopic measurements and imaging gathered by NASA’s Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter (MRO), researchers found the first strong evidence confirming that briny water flows on the Red Planet today along dark streaks moving downhill on crater slopes and mountain sides, during warmer seasons.

Celsius to Fahrenheit TF=9/5TC+32
Fahrenheit to Celsius TC=5/9(TF−32)

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-12-28 15:42:55)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-12-24 19:05:16

You would have a big Balloon structure on the outside lifting your experiment, then Biosphere inside another Martian like enclosure and maybe other Snow globe sized experiment or Biopods within.

To be a good Mars Analogue matching conditions Perseverance faces from Jezero the Balloon would stay flying at 34,000 m or 21.21 miles altitude in the atmosphere of Earth, I don't know how you can beat an Artificial Gravity Satellite/Station with centrifuge wheel but maybe a small shrub or animal could be lifted up by a harness string or magnetic levitation based low-gravity simulator to simulate Mars pulling upward with 38% of Earth's plants might be grown inside a bowl with dust on the outside and inside the larger Bowl of the Balloon a "wind-wall" of fine red dust consisting of tiny computer sized fans is used to provide wind inside the floating Balloon biosphere. Animal species are already launched to space investigate various biological processes through the Bioastronautics area of study, there might be a ways to deal with waste an examination of astronautical hygiene and recycling, freeze dried food type mixes, food of intermediate moisture or long term food of longer shelf life product or dehydrated food and the food conditions can be tested and used on animal feed in a Balloon before going to Mars, methods of Astrobotany and Space-Farm design can be tested.

Credit goes to Space-Nut for the 'Spaceship Neptune Capsule' topic which provided inspiration for this thread and for me to search on Mars Balloon Analogues.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MilcjB6uNlU

maybe you could test the artificial animal family, making artificial chirping sounds and also see what its like for an animal to have an 'Artificial Mother' perhaps an artificial Boston Dynamics little Mouse or Gerbil could teach others born without mothers, seeing how they respond to an artificial parent while living inside a Mars Colony condition. Many animals work by instinct but more complex mammals have learned behavior from the parents.

Another here

MARSBOx: Fungal and Bacterial Endurance From a Balloon-Flown Analog Mission in the Stratosphere
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33692763/

Whether terrestrial life can withstand the martian environment is of paramount interest for planetary protection measures and space exploration. To understand microbial survival potential in Mars-like conditions, several fungal and bacterial samples were launched in September 2019 on a large NASA scientific balloon flight to the middle stratosphere (∼38 km altitude) where radiation levels resembled values at the equatorial Mars surface. Fungal spores of Aspergillus niger and bacterial cells of Salinisphaera shabanensis, Staphylococcus capitis subsp. capitis, and Buttiauxella sp. MASE-IM-9 were launched inside the MARSBOx (Microbes in Atmosphere for Radiation, Survival, and Biological Outcomes Experiment) payload filled with an artificial martian atmosphere and pressure throughout the mission profile. The dried microorganisms were either exposed to full UV-VIS radiation (UV dose = 1148 kJ m-2) or were shielded from radiation. After the 5-h stratospheric exposure, samples were assayed for survival and metabolic changes. Spores from the fungus A. niger and cells from the Gram-(-) bacterium S. shabanensis were the most resistant with a 2- and 4-log reduction, respectively. Exposed Buttiauxella sp. MASE-IM-9 was completely inactivated (both with and without UV exposure) and S. capitis subsp. capitis only survived the UV shielded experimental condition (3-log reduction). Our results underscore a wide variation in survival phenotypes of spacecraft associated microorganisms and support the hypothesis that pigmented fungi may be resistant to the martian surface if inadvertently delivered by spacecraft missions.

Stem outreach / Thales seems to have been doing its student Balloons since 2018 or longer, Sterm is a general science term used by people in Australia, the USA, Canada, French and British to class together Science, technology, engineering, and mathematics (STEM) is an umbrella term used to group together various 'sciences' but there is no universal agreement on which disciplines are included in STEM.

https://www.allaboutstem.co.uk/2018/04/ … m-project/

other topics

'Womb, Artificial'
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=10396

Very interesting Biopod post by Tahanson
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=10623

Indoor farming 2014 post by Louis
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7099

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-12-25 06:31:06)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-12-26 06:17:59

A Balloon-Borne Mars Analog Platform for 'Field' Tests of In Situ Instruments
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/241554276_A_Balloon-Borne_Mars_Analog_Platform_for_'Field'_Tests_of_In_Situ_Instruments

A Remote “Field” Site: Field testing of instruments in Mars analogs such as deserts and the Antarctic dry valleys can demonstrate their robustness and autonomy. These sites may approximate temperature and humidity conditions, but are wetter, warmer and (always) at higher pressure than Mars’ surface.

NASA Gusto
https://science.nasa.gov/mission/gusto/
'expected to stay in the air 55+ days, depending on weather conditions.'

Japan working with the French in Australia
2018 article
We're going sky-high with Japan’s space agency, JAXA, as they become one of our latest partners in space, launching high-altitude balloons in our unique Alice Springs facility.
https://blog.csiro.au/japans-space-agen … -and-away/
'Building on the success of earlier ballooning campaigns with Japanese and French scientists iour new agreement with JAXA will make use of the Alice Springs’ facility for a multi-flight campaign starting in the first half of 2018.'
JAXA planned to fly three space observatories:
https://blog.csiro.au/japans-space-agen … -and-away/
FITE (Far-Infrared Interferometric Telescope Experiment) that will study red giant stars and star-forming nebulae, and
SMILE-2+ (Sub-MeV/MeV gamma-way Imaging Loaded-on-balloon Experiment) and GRAINE (Gamma-ray Astro-Imager with Nuclear Emulsion), both gamma ray telescopes.
Using balloons to fly these observatories to the edge of space is less costly than launching by rockets and also provides a flexible way to develop and improve the instrument technologies with each flight rather than putting something into orbit which cannot be upgraded or serviced.

Eclipse balloons to study effect of Mars-like environment on life
https://phys.org/news/2017-07-eclipse-b … nment.html

NASA will provide each team with two small metal cards, each the size of a dog tag. The cards have harmless, yet environmentally resilient bacteria dried onto their surface. One card will fly up with the balloon while the other remains on the ground. A comparison of the two will show the consequences of the exposure to Mars-like conditions, such as bacterial survival and any genetic changes.

Eclipse Balloons to Study Effect of Mars-Like Environment on Life
https://mars.nasa.gov/news/2910/eclipse … t-on-life/
A research group at NASA's Ames Research Center, in California's Silicon Valley, is seizing the opportunity to conduct a low-cost experiment on 34 of the balloons. This experiment, called MicroStrat, will simulate life's ability to survive beyond Earth -- and maybe even on Mars.
"The August solar eclipse gives us a rare opportunity to study the stratosphere when it's even more Mars-like than usual," said Jim Green, director of planetary science at NASA Headquarters in Washington. "With student teams flying balloon payloads from dozens of points along the path of totality, we'll study effects on microorganisms that are coming along for the ride."

Jaxa website

'Scientific Balloon Testing'
https://global.jaxa.jp/projects/sas/balloon/topics.html

Concerning the flight test for a Mars probe airplane, we missed data for some part of the flight, but we will analyze the acquired data in detail for our future research.
With the test this time, we completed the first scientific balloon experiment. We would like to express our deep appreciation to all pertinent people and organizations for their cooperation.
To achieve a Mars probe airplane, it is imperative to perform aerodynamic design of the plane to fit it for flight in the very thin atmosphere of one hundredth compared to that on the Earth. We conducted the test this time at a high altitude where we can simulate the Mars’ atmospheric density to acquire aerodynamic data for the plane. We will further analyze various data acquired from the test to incorporate the analysis results into future Mars probe airplane designs.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-12-26 11:35:03)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-12-26 09:12:34

2015 article on Leonard David's blog website, Leonard David former NASA consultant and science author

'Watch: Scientific Balloon Experiment Tests Bacterial Survival in a Mars Analog'
https://www.leonarddavid.com/watch-scie … rs-analog/

Field astrobiology research in Moon-Mars analogue environments: Instruments and methods
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio … nd_methods

Felix Baumgartner performed a stunt where he jumped from 39 km (24 mi) Felix still holds a number of records but Alan Eustace broke his height record jumped from 135,890 feet (41.42 km; 25.74 mi) a Swiss scientists Auguste Piccard had also used Balloons to study upper atmosphere was measurements of cosmic radiation. Major David G. Simons in the Manhigh II gondola had a total mass of 748 kg (1,649 lb) Soviet Yevgeny Nikolayevich Andreyev and Joseph Kittinger also held records for highest free fall skydive, Nicholas John Piantanida was an American amateur parachute jumper who reached 123,500 feet (37,600 meters; 23.39 miles) Project Manhigh was a pre-Space Age military project that took men in balloons to the middle layers of the stratosphere.

Switzerland 2019
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y75lwIYc-CM
High-altitude balloon flight to 38.5 km msl with a 2-axis gimbal

Keith Cowing is an American astrobiologist, former NASA employee and science journalist

Balloon Experiment Reveals Earth Microbes' Likely Fate on Mars
https://astrobiology.com/2017/04/balloo … -mars.html
By Keith Cowing

Led by David J. Smith of NASA’s Ames Research Center in Silicon Valley, the Exposing Microorganisms in the Stratosphere, or E-MIST, experiment carried samples of a very hardy microbe in a protective, dormant state, called an endospore, that some bacteria adopt when environments are unfavorable. Exposing them to the harsh conditions of Earth’s stratosphere offers a good simulation of the surface of Mars, since both locations are similarly stressful for life as we know it: extremely cold and dry, with low air pressure and fierce radiation.
Once the bacterial samples were parachuted back to Earth for analysis, Smith’s team found that after just eight hours of exposure, 99.999% of the bacteria were dead. The researchers checked the genes of the few that had survived the onslaught of UV rays above the protective layers of Earth’s atmosphere, and found several small differences in their DNA compared to a population of the same bacteria kept on the ground. This result suggests that if any microbes hitching a ride on a spacecraft to Mars did manage to survive the journey, they could potentially experience genetic changes. However, more studies will be needed to determine if those mutations would have any consequences for the bacteria or their ability to survive.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-12-27 13:16:56

Test flights of the NASA ultra-long duration balloon
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 7703011360
a 2800 kg suspended load or 6172.9 lbs

From SpaceNut's topic, it includes comfortable seats, food a bathroom and a relaxed journey and a Bar

Spaceship Neptune offers comfortable, more affordable trip 'to space'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KIdyFduDws

Japan balloon altitude at 53.7 kms or 176,181.102 feet

The previous record of 53 km 32.9 mi achieved by the Institute of Space and Astronautical Science (now part of JAXA)

https://www.blimpinfo.com/uncategorized … de-record/

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-12-27 13:20:24)

tahanson43206 · 2023-12-27 13:32:57

For Mars_B4_Moon re #5

Thank you for the link to the report of the Japanese balloon flight ... the height achieved would equate (roughly) to four miles of elevation on Mars, with a small payload that might include an observation device and electronics, plus a power supply.

The single-capped balloon was manufactured by JAXA using an ultra thin film of new design that measured only 2.8 micrometers (0.11 mils) thick. The previous record of 53 km (32.9 mi), had been achieved by the Institute of Space and Astronautical Science (now part of JAXA) using a balloon with a film thickness of 3.4 micrometers (0.13 mils) thick, on May 23, 2002 at the now closed Sanriku Balloon Center, near Iwate.

This example seems to me, to show what you can expect a balloon that would actually fly on Mars to look like, and what performance you can expect.

(th)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-12-28 12:51:04

Tahanson, the feats of the Japanese are great but I fear they are hitting the law of diminishing marginal returns.

If we split height/pressures into 3 parts, our first Third might be 'Everest' on Earth, lets call this zone 1 so the next 2nd zone third might be 'Armstrong pressure' and our final third zone would be the pressure at Hellas Basin So we have Everest as our first step, Armstrong's line as the second step and Hellas as the third step

26 km / 8.8 (Everest) = approx 3

19.2 km Armstrong / 8.8 = 2.18 or close to the number '2' Everest heights

You could think of it all rather than 6.3 kPa, 47 mmHg, or about 1 psi but think instead of heights of Everest peak, 'Armstrong-Lines' and Hellas, this allows us to easily estimate a difference of km or miles between Mars and Earth in our minds

When skydiver 'Felix Baumgartner' jumped out of his Balloon he jumped at 39 km (24 mi) he jumps out at 4.43 times the height of Everest
or compared to lines on Earth he is 1.5 times the height of one of the readings at Hellas Basin

I think maybe I am in two minds about the whole 'flying thing' Tahanson, but perhaps it has its usefulness. flying beyond heights of 53 km only has so many science returns and you are more or less in a vacuum here, because the atmosphere of Mars is so much thinner than Earth's it is often compared to a vacuum anyways. On Earth the air is more useful an Aircraft can lift 210,500 Kg or 464073.1 lbs , the Antonov, Boeing 747, Lockheed C-5 Galaxy, Airbus BelugaXL all lift very large payloads on Earth, some considered the Shuttle to be an 'Aircraft' it was manned and could deliver 25,060 kg or 55,247 lbs to LEO, in our discussion in Balloon threads it was said a very large Airship delivered 7000? Kg or 15,432 lbs across Earth? an experimental aircraft helicopter hybrid could lift (VTOL) 42,500 lb (19,278 kg); (STOL) 44,500 lb (20.185 kg) the LTV XC-142 https://web.archive.org/web/20031005140 … C-142A.php
tested extensively by the U.S. Army, U.S. Navy, U.S. Air Force and NASA
https://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/Visit … v-xc-142a/
a Soviet era helicopter once lifted 6,768 + Kg or 125,000 lb on a flight,
the Sikorsky S-64 Skycrane used to fight wildfires in the USA, South Korea and Italy it lifts 42,000 lb (19,051 kg)
even if a Mars helicopter or Aicraft only lifts a small payload, that small payload could be important for example a fire suppressant against something dangerous like a Chemical oxygen generator going out of control or a Class-A oxygen-candle self-sustaining fire.
in our discussion in Balloon threads it was said a very large Airship delivered 7000? Kg or 15,432 lbs across Earth? There is a general consensus the payloads will be small but it would perhaps deliver something small but useful, even if it only delivers a small briefcase or school bag of material that might be a useful delivery, it might be a vaccine you replicate, a species of Moss to breed during the summers and winters, maybe you deliver vitamins to people living inside a Bidome or it delivers Bee Larvae to Farms inside an artificial Biosphere, even a small package the size of a Cat delivered a distance of hundreds of miles or hundreds upon hundreds of km could be very important to help a Mars colony get through its long summer and long winter. People might use innovations in communication, they may even bounce signals off the Moons of Mars and if you land a series of mirrors to reflect lasers you also maybe better use Moons Phobos or Deimos as a passive satellite to improve long-distance communication, 60 years ago NASA were launching Balloons some from the ground and some on Scout launch vehicles, they transmitted tv pictures across America and across the Atlantic Ocean to Europe, missions such as Echo 1, now the US Navy's historical dirigible hangar in North Carolina. If each Mars-base had its own Aircraft or Balloon it might raise this craft high into the sky when conditions were good to use as a reflector or a repeater in beyond the horizon radio communication, it might also be used in navigation or Air Traffic Management in a beyond the horizon radar system on Mars.

When mankind builds real runways and airports and airstrips on Mars flying will improve but for now there has been no natural 'Runway' spotted on Mars that would be safe enough for a high speed aircraft to land. The land mass of Mars is huge, it is comparable to the land mass of our Earth. In our human recorded history we have spent 4,000 years + writing down our findings in ancient languages, even today on Earth after thousands of years on horse and ship and airplane and satellite there are still some rocky ledge, some jungle or some cave entrance on Earth that remains unexplored, even on our Earth today there are still many parts Undiscovered & Unexplored on Mars you will want to 'scout' everything as quickly as possible. We know how fast Rovers are moving, there are now many unmanned Rovers on the Moon and Mars, Rovers will get better at 'Driving' with improvements in AI but there is only so far and so fast a Car will travel even the manned Apollo Lunar Roving Vehicle had limits on its feats. The Aircraft or Balloon or Helicopter will probably fly a much further distance, at a higher speed and achieve better feats over a shorter period of time. The flying craft could be successful as a scout mission, looking at Lava tubes, checking for spots with possible 'life' doing examination of an unexplored cave.

The satellite as an orbiting platform can deliver a message at certain times without weather issues faced by Aircraft and the Train is clearly the best way of transporting stuff between two colonies or two towns, but we have no train tracks on Mars so another method might be used to connect distant colonies such as flying. Rockets can do it but even with Musk's cheap rockets it still will be expensive to launch a rocket from planet Earth and even on Mars having rockets hopping across the surface always on stand-by might not be possible. As soon as you land a Balloon device or Balloon craft it is in danger of ripping, AI Robots on Earth are starting to to cook and handle eggs but the robots might be needed to aid the Balloon and would need to be 'strong' like a human but also have a light touch with very delicate fingers.

Although the Everest Death Zone seems high, comparing it as 'Mars-like' is still not possible Earth's highest points are 8.8 km 28,871 feet the low Basins of Mars like areas of Hellas might compare with 26 km on Earth or 85,301 feet
the pressure would be 0.97 kPa or 0.141 psi and Water would boil at -26.7 C or -16.156 F or 246 K
U.S. Standard Atmospheric model sets 'Armstrong pressure' at an altitude of 63,000 feet 19.2 km

The Inflatable Satellite
https://www.inventionandtech.com/conten … atellite-0
'To build a communications satellite, NASA engineers fell back on humanity’s oldest flight technology'

There would be times of the Mars year when conditions are much better for flying.

This article claims '14 mbar' or 1.4 Kilopascal at the deep Hellas Basin, this is higher than other readings which were already very high readings.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 3317300934

P = P0e * −gM(h−h0) / RT on Earth g=9.8 and on Earth the Molar Mass for Air Mol = 0.0289644 kg/mol and h is the altitude

29 km in Earth atmosphere is -47.5 C or -53.5 F and sonic speed is 301 m/s or 673.62 mph, the pressure would be 0.0136 bar

'Air and surface temperatures vary by season'

This reading would mean the Balloon to match the pressure at the deep Basin would fly at a much lower height of 24.7 km on Earth,

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-12-29 12:39:08)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-03-02 15:04:09

Steward Observatory balloon mission breaks NASA record 22 miles above Antarctica

https://phys.org/news/2024-02-steward-o … -nasa.html

GUSTO—short for the Galactic / Extragalactic ULDB Spectroscopic Terahertz Observatory—has now broken the record as NASA's longest-flying heavy-lift balloon mission, which previously stood at 55 days, 1 hour and 34 minutes. Currently, the enormous zero-pressure balloon is riding stratospheric air currents 120,000 feet above the Antarctic continent, collecting far infrared radio emissions from the matter between stars. GUSTO surpassed the previous record at 10:22 a.m. Saturday Tucson time.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-03-03 08:46:42

WindBorne Systems Breaks World Record for Most Accurate Global Weather Forecasts with New AI Forecast Offering, “WeatherMesh”
https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/ … h%E2%80%9D

City with a dirty image wanted to beat a record set by Disney.

A festival which became something of a disaster, balloons drifted back over the city and Lake Erie and landed in the surrounding area, spooked wild animals farm animals, started causing problems for traffic and an airport. The mass release of balloons interfered with a United States Coast Guard search for two boaters who were later found drowned, the fundraiser lost money, possibly helped kill people. The Guinness Book of World Records recognizes the event as a world record "largest ever mass balloon release" after the event it refused to measure balloon release feat records ever again.

Ohio's 1986 Balloon Disaster
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XV6Jz3Xg18

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-04-13 02:32:24

Hundreds of balloons go airborne to witness the eclipse from the edge of space
https://www.npr.org/sections/solar-ecli … ns-project
The high-altitude balloons are traveling at altitudes anywhere between 70,000 and 115,000 feet. Those altitudes are more than twice that of commercial airlines and far above the cloud tops. (The balloons are also made of biodegradable latex, so they won't harm the environment).

GUSTO the Galactic / Extragalactic ULDB Spectroscopic Terahertz Observatory mission, high-altitude balloon mission that carries an infrared telescope to measure fine-structure line emission from the interstellar medium. The gondola and instruments carried by the balloon have an approximate mass of 2,000 kg (4,400 lb) and measures about 6 m wide by 6 m height (20 ft × 20 ft). The wind vortex will take the balloon on a circular flight trajectory over Antarctica for 55 to 120 days. The telescope has a 90 cm (35 in) mirror,which will direct light to a series of superconducting detectors contained inside a cryostat that will keep them at −269 °C (−452 °F). https://www.spaceflightinsider.com/orga … milky-way/

P791
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElRkr1dVjro

big flying ships on Earth

'This is Airlander, the world's largest aircraft'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpQnZu6p8v8

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-04-20 04:45:26

Connecting the Dots | Avoiding HAPS mishaps
https://spacenews.com/connecting-the-do … s-mishaps/

As low-orbiting broadband constellations become an increasingly dominant force in the satellite industry, stratospheric high-altitude platform stations (HAPS) are closing in on commercializing connectivity from altitudes much closer to Earth.
After being spun out of European aerospace giant Airbus last year, Aalto plans to set up its first permanent base for stratospheric aircraft in Kenya, promising to return the country to the forefront of HAPS commercialization after losing Google’s Loon balloon-based venture three years ago.
Kenya is where Loon first provided commercial connectivity in 2020 with dozens of balloons equipped with payloads mimicking cell towers, only for the plans to burst a year later because it couldn’t create a long-term, sustainable business.
HAPS are often described as pseudo satellites because they also seek to provide connectivity and remote sensing services from up high — around 20 kilometers, below space and above regulated airspace and, critically, still above the weather.
Loon’s early success underlines the demand for connectivity from the stratosphere that can be deployed over persistent coverage gaps or quickly to restore communications following a natural disaster, Aalto CEO Samer Halawi said, but their approach failed to align capability with economics.
Halawi joined Aalto in July 2022 after a long history in the commercial space industry, including chief commercial officer roles at LEO constellation provider OneWeb and geostationary fleet operator Intelsat, and as head of UAE-based regional satellite operator Thuraya.
He puts HAPS in development into two camps: those lighter than air like Loon and heavier platforms such as Aalto’s Zephyr, a fixed-winged drone stretching 25 meters across that is more than two decades in the making.
Loon’s balloons were not as stationary as the Zephyrs Aalto envisions, and Halawi says the venture’s business case fell apart because multiple balloons were ultimately needed to cover a specific area.
Still, Aalto requires reliable access to the stratosphere to get its lightweight glider off the ground, and while this isn’t guaranteed anywhere Halawi says Kenya just so happens to have one of the better climates for deploying HAPS.
The venture also plans to colocate a final assembly line with a Kenyan airport.
It would take 10 days at most for Zephyr to fly from Kenya to a point of service anywhere in the world, according to Halawi. Aalto hopes to have a network of airports, or Aaltoports, to ensure Zephyrs can keep a constant presence over mission areas. Brazil is next on the list.
According to Halawi, Zephyr has spent a record 64 days in the stratosphere during tests, which he says is longer than other heavier-than-air HAPS companies such as U.K.-based BAE Systems and Softbank of Japan are developing.
He says more capable batteries are one of the many elements only recently coming together to make HAPS a commercial reality.
Today’s batteries last 90 charge cycles but will extend next year to 200 cycles, putting the limit Zephyr can keep in the air at 200 days.
Ultimately, the aircraft would need to be swapped out with another Zephyr so it can land to replace batteries. This is also part of the advantage over space-based systems, Halawi says, because hardware can be easily upgraded, or a government payload could be quickly added for a responsive mission.
The company sees a lot of demand from governments and Airbus US Space and Defense based in Arlington, Virginia, is a partner and works directly with the Department of Defense and other U.S. government customers to help solve their network extension and deep sensing capability gaps.

How solar-powered airships could make air travel climate-friendly
https://www.fau.eu/2023/04/24/news/rese … -friendly/

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#1 2023-12-24 18:43:41

Mars Balloon stratospheric research station analogs, HAPS or ULDB

#2 2023-12-24 19:05:16

Re: Mars Balloon stratospheric research station analogs, HAPS or ULDB

#3 2023-12-26 06:17:59

Re: Mars Balloon stratospheric research station analogs, HAPS or ULDB

#4 2023-12-26 09:12:34

Re: Mars Balloon stratospheric research station analogs, HAPS or ULDB

#5 2023-12-27 13:16:56

Re: Mars Balloon stratospheric research station analogs, HAPS or ULDB

#6 2023-12-27 13:32:57

Re: Mars Balloon stratospheric research station analogs, HAPS or ULDB

#7 2023-12-28 12:51:04

Re: Mars Balloon stratospheric research station analogs, HAPS or ULDB

#8 2024-03-02 15:04:09

Re: Mars Balloon stratospheric research station analogs, HAPS or ULDB

#9 2024-03-03 08:46:42

Re: Mars Balloon stratospheric research station analogs, HAPS or ULDB

#10 2024-04-13 02:32:24

Re: Mars Balloon stratospheric research station analogs, HAPS or ULDB

#11 2024-04-20 04:45:26

Re: Mars Balloon stratospheric research station analogs, HAPS or ULDB

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