Womb, Artificial

tahanson43206 · 2022-12-18 20:44:25

This technology is (apparently) under development for Earth, but it seems applicable to Mars.

Raising an embryo from conception to ready-to-breathe is only a very small part of raising a human being to join a going society.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/solu … 49721.html

A Solution To Musk's Fear Of Population Collapse? Artificial Womb Facility Could Grow 30,000 Babies A Year
Bibhu Pattnaik
Sun, December 18, 2022 at 10:36 AM EST
Billionaire Elon Musk has frequently spoken about his concerns about underpopulation. He has mentioned that people should focus on having more babies to resolve the problem of low birth rates and population collapse.
Stay ahead of the market
Earlier this year, Musk shared how the COVID-19 pandemic has resulted in a lower birth rate instead of the "baby boom" expected due to people being forced to stay indoors.
Now, a birthing facility could answer Musk's concerns about the world's low birth rates. The world's first artificial womb facility, EctoLife, promises to produce customized babies.
Film producer and biotechnologist Hashem Al-Ghaili have created the technology which would allow women who have had their uterus removed to procreate, while also reducing premature births, and combating population declines, reports the Daily Mail.

Running on renewable energy, the facility plans to house 75 labs, each equipped with up to 400 growth pods or artificial wombs, reports the media outlet.
The pods are designed to replicate the real-life conditions of the mother's womb and include sensors that monitor the baby's vitals, like a heartbeat, temperature, and oxygen saturation.
EctoLife aims to grow up to 30,000 babies a year inside its birthing pods.
Also Read: Musk Had Twins With Neuralink Executive Shivon Zilis Through IVF: Report
Al-Ghaili says the concept is based on "50 years of groundbreaking scientific research conducted by researchers worldwide," and such birthing pods could be widespread in "just decades" from now, the Daily Mail reports.
Al-Ghaili believes that artificial womb facilities could become a reality in 10 years if ethical restrictions are removed, reports the Mirror.
According to the report, an "Elite Package" would allow people to "genetically engineer the embryo before implanting it into the artificial womb."
Also, parents can select their baby's level of intelligence, height, hair, eye color, physical strength, and skin tone.
Al-Ghaili says, "Every single feature mentioned in the concept is 100 percent science-based and has already been achieved by scientists and engineers".
"The only thing left is building a prototype by combining all the features into a single device", he was quoted as saying by the Mirror.
Al-Ghaili claims the artificial womb facility can "help" countries facing the problem of a declining population, such as Japan, Bulgaria, and South Korea, among others.
"In terms of timeframe, it depends on the ethical guidelines. Right now, research on human embryos is not allowed beyond 14 days. After 14 days, embryos must be destroyed due to ethical concerns", he adds.
Photo: YouTube clip from Hashem Al-Ghaili

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tahanson43206 · 2022-12-29 12:11:56

This topic is likely to be important in the future, both on Earth and away from Earth.

This topic is a good place for members to record suggestions for successful raising of a child that might be borne in these circumstances.

There are already a few posts in the NewMars archive, where members have take the risk of recording suggestions for raising the next generation.

There are opportunities for those who might be interested in this topic, and who are not currently members, to apply via the Recruiting topic.

(th)

RobertDyck · 2022-12-30 17:16:27

Thank you for posting this. I heard about it, but haven't seen the video before. Flashy! Glitzy! Isn't it a great video? Of course they get some important technical aspects wrong.

The problem is they want to connect directly to the umbilical cord. That's the hard way of doing it, and only for hospitals that care for premature babies. An artificial womb that grows a baby from conception (in vitro fertilization) to birth will not do that. The baby grows the amniotic sack. The baby grows the amniotic fluid. The baby grows the umbilical cord. The baby grows the placenta... at least the baby's side of the placenta. An artificial womb for this purpose only requires technology to replace the mother's side of the placenta. That's the interface. This is important because any technology that touches human blood has the potential to rupture platelets. Rupturing platelets releases enzymes that create blood clots. Your body does this on purpose. When you have a cut, blood flowing through the cut will be ruptured by the rough edges of the ruptured blood vessels, releasing enzymes to create a blood clot that will seal the wound. But you don't want technology that could cause baby's blood to clot. There's a whole host of medical conditions caused by blood clots. This would damage baby's health, harming and potentially killing the baby.

The underside of the placenta is covered by villi. These are the same villi on the inside of your small intestines. For an adult, digested food washes over the villi of your intestines. Acid and enzymes in your stomach break down protein into amino acids. Villi have a semipermeable membrane that allows amino acids to pass through into your blood. I could go on, but digested food is absorbed through the membranes of the villi into your blood. In a mother's womb, mother's blood washes across the villi of the placenta. There is no direct contact between baby's blood and mother's blood. Instead food in mother's blood is absorbed through the membranes of the villi into baby's blood. Oxygen is also absorbed from mothers blood across the membranes of the villi into baby's blood. CO2 from baby's blood passes the reverse direction, across the membranes of the villi into mother's blood. An adult's liver breaks down various waste products, extracting as much energy as possible. The final waste product is urine, composed mostly of urea, creatinine, uric acid. Your kidneys filter these out, along with salts: sodium, chloride, potassium, sulphate, ammonium, phosphate and other ions and molecules in lesser amounts. Urine is stored in your bladder until you take a piss. Baby's kidneys do not start to function until the last weeks before birth, but baby's liver works as soon as other organs work. Villi of the pancreas pass baby's urine to mother's blood. So a mother does not only eat for two, she also breathes for two, exhales for two, and pisses for two. Ask any mother, she already knows this.

An artificial womb requires artificial blood to replace mother's blood, but since it will never contact baby's body, it doesn't have to be perfect. It will only wash across the villi of baby's pancreas. Medicine already has artificial blood. The artificial womb will require a heart-lung machine. But this heart-lung machine will be smaller, sized for a fetus. Again, the heart-lung machine will not be directly connected to the baby. Instead the machine will only circulate artificial blood washing across the villi. The artificial blood will not have any platelets, so concerns about rupturing platelets are moot. The machine will absorb oxygen from ambient air into the artificial blood, and release CO2 into air of the room.

Hospitals also have an intravenous feed (IV feed), to provide food to patients who cannot digest solid food. This is provided via needle to a vein. That same IV food will be dissolved in the artificial blood. The artificial womb will require sensors to monitor electrolytes to ensure the artificial blood has the correct pH, salinity, and balance of all electrolytes: sodium, chlorine, potassium, sulphate, phosphate, and calcium. I heard that babies prefer the food that mother ate when she was pregnant. However, I mentioned this to one mother who said her child hates the food she ate when pregnant. So... whatever. A balance of foods and variety may be required for balanced nutrition. But it all must be in a form suitable for an IV feed. This food won't be provided to any vein, but will be provided to the artificial blood of the artificial womb, so baby's villi will absorb it directly into baby's blood.

The artificial womb will also require a dialysis machine. This will remove urine from the artificial blood. Again sized for a fetus. And again, doesn't have to be perfect because it won't touch real blood, only artificial blood. Sensors would monitor chemicals in the urine, and quantity. A large scale artificial womb would pipe that urine to a sewer, but a unit sized for an individual house could store urine in a bottle. Parents could empty the bottle in their toilet periodically.

You don't want a hard wall to the womb itself. Any hard surface would affect baby's growth. For example, certain cultures strap a board to the back of a baby's head to shape the skull. We don't want anything like that. So the womb must be soft, rubbery. The front of the womb would be made of transparent silicone rubber. The back of the womb would be opaque rubber. Rather than a hard door that opens, instead a zipper could close womb. An obvious location for the zipper is the seam between transparent and opaque rubber. Inside the zipper would be rubber seals that the zipper presses together to form an air-tight seal. The seal ensures the inside of the womb remains sterile. Just like the zipper that closed Apollo spacesuits.

Opaque rubber is where the pancreas interfaces. This is the critical part. The pancreas must form a liquid tight seal against the rubber, and the rubber must have multiple channels to provide artificial blood. And more channels to take-up artificial blood for return to the heart-lung machine. Every month woman's womb swells with blood, ready to receive a baby. After an ovum is fertilized, it divides rapidly multiple times. It becomes a ball of cells, then a hollow ball filled with fluid. Walls of the ball are just a single cell thick. One side of the ball has a mass of cells inside the ball. At this point it's called a blastocyst. The mass of cells is called the embryoblast. This is the point where it embeds in the wall of mother's womb. The side of the blastocyst with the embryoblast attaches to the mother's womb. It then grows cells that invade the wall of the mother's womb. This is important because the opaque rubber of the artificial womb must allow the blastocyst to attach, and must allow invading cells to enter the rubber.

Embedding of the blastocyst into the endometrium requires that it hatches from the zona pellucida, the egg coat that prevents adherence to the fallopian tube as the pre-embryo makes its way to the uterus. The blastocyst doesn't just grow "anchors" into the uturine wall, the entire blastocyst embeds in the wall.

5 days after in vitro fertilization, the blastocyst is transferred to the uterus. Assisted zona hatching is often used for IVF, in which a small hole is made in the zona pellucida, using a micromanipulator.

Wikipedia has a lot of details: Implantation

Once bound to the extracellular matrix of the endometrium, trophoblast cells secrete enzymes and other factors to embed the blastocyst into the uterine wall. The enzymes released degrade the endometrial lining, while autocrine growth factors such as human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) and insulin-like growth factor (IGF) allow the blastocyst to further invade the endometrium.

The important point is the lining of the opaque rubber must function as the endometrial lining of mother's womb, allowing the blastocyst to embed. Then the body of the rubber must respond to enzymes that the blastocyst will release. This allows formation of the placenta. Mother's uterus has spiral arteries that regulate release of blood into the space between the mother's side of the placenta and the baby's side. The mother's side is the lining of the uterus or endometrium, the baby's side is the actual placenta. As the baby grows, cells and enzymes from the baby force the spiral arteries to open up, releasing more blood. When the baby is close to ready to be born, the spiral arteries aren't spiral any more, they're fully open, straight and looking more like the bell of a trumpet. Again, the special opaque rubber must be able to duplicate all these functions.

In summary, we know how to make most of this. The tricky part is that special opaque rubber that functions as the lining of the mother's womb. That's the hard part.

RobertDyck · 2022-12-30 20:37:07

The video mentions connecting to he umbilical cord. I already went over that. It also suggests two tanks, one with food and oxygen. But where does the oxygen come from? That part I went over: a heart-lung machine. But the other tank they suggest is for waste. And they want a bioreactor to convert waste into food. Realize that waste is urine, aka piss. An artificial womb doesn't need to recycle waste. The waste will just be piss. If you have an artificial womb at home instead of a baby factory, the bottle of piss can be periodically emptied down the toilet. And food will just be the same food hospitals currently use for intravenous (IV) feed. Converting urine into food? That's what a farm does. I don't think we need to re-invent food production. Yes, there will also be separate bottles of electrolytes. Water can be filtered from tap water. It has to be sterile, so reverse osmosis filtration. We don't need to re-invent food production.

SpaceNut · 2022-12-31 10:45:20

This topic also crosses the possible avenue to bring husbandry and such to mars as well.

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-03 11:06:10

For Calliban re decline of certain populations of humans....

The artificial womb may have arrived just in time (or be arriving if it is not yet here)....

Unlike a man (male human) a female human has to plan ahead for not only 9 months, but 20 years of hard and often painful labor, trying to raise a young human who will be of some small benefit to humanity, and not a monumental disgrace.

It seems to me quite understandable that an intelligent woman would look at that responsibility without enthusiasm.

Men still attempt to control women in some parts of the world, but I suspect that even those outliers are going to find themselves without partners.

It seems to me that if men in selected regions wanted to insure the continuation of their local lines, they might endeavor to reduce risks.

There are a number of ways male humans might act to reduce risks as seen by female humans.

Putting an end to the concept of "war" (unmitigated, unprovoked aggression) would be a good place to start.

We have war looming in Asia, with the (so far unbridled) ambition of Xi Jinping to impose his will on people who do not want his brand of leadership.

Identifying and removing male humans who cause more harm than good might be a good place to look for males who want to make living worth while to females.

(th)

RobertDyck · 2023-01-03 14:51:00

Tom (tahanson43206): There are innumerable studies that show children that grow with no male influence are maladjusted. Growing to adulthood as a well balanced individual requires both a male and female role model. Eliminating male humans would cause great harm to society. Yes, both boys and girls require both a mother and a father. There are alternate lifestyles, LGBT individuals, but only 2% to 3% of the population is LGBTQ. Current "woke" media makes that appear much larger, many young people today think about 25% of the population is LGBTQ, but in reality it's only 2-3%. Lesbian couples could have an uncle or someone from a "Big Brother" program provide a male influence. Gay couples could have a female family member provide the female influence. But the vast majority of the population is straight, so traditional mother/father families work best. And yes, are required.

Don't blame war on males. Have you never witnessed women in the workplace fighting of something trivial? I have seen two women fight over a houseplant in an office. Women fight just as aggressively as men. Eliminating men will not eliminate war. Some women think it will, until there's a large group of women working together without men. Then we find the women are just as bad. I remind you that during the war for the Falkland Islands, Margret Thatcher was Prime Minister of the UK.

We're seeing some disturbing trends in society. It actually appears someone is deliberately causing problems for all western nations for the goal of reducing the birth rate. Western nations will commit suicide by simply not having children. Populations of these countries will either whither to irrelevance, or they will allow so much immigration from third world countries that wealthy western nations will not longer be western nations.

Starting with a study in the UK done in the 1970s, they found 30% of all married couples admitted to cheating on their spouse (adultery) at least once in their marriage. The number of women who committed adultery was equal to the number of men. That sounds obvious; after all who are the cheating spouses having sex with? Studies done in the UK and USA in the 1980s and 1990s also found the number of women who committed adultery were equal to the number of men. There is a "rumour" among women that it's men who "cheat", but studies showed it was equal. But this is now 2023 (Happy New Year). Now it's no longer equal. Between Tinder and Bumble and the website "Ashley Madison", it's so easy for women to find someone to cheat with that it's mostly women. As an example, one married couple did a little experiment. They both paid for a full paid subscription to Tinder for one month only. They put in their profile that they're married but looking to cheat. The women got offers in just hours. During the whole month the man did not get one single offer at all. He got multiple women call him disgusting.

The latest trend is for media to push the idea of an open marriage. Those who know a lot more than me have pointed out this only works if both individuals believe in open sexuality before they meet, before they get married. Attempting to open a marriage after the fact never, ever, ever works. 100% of the time it results in the marriage failing. 100%! No exceptions. In the vast majority of cases it's the woman who proposes an open marriage. Realize what this means: it means the woman intends to commit adultery. Do not agree to this! Most women expect that they will be able to get sausage but their husband just won't be able to get a woman. When a woman proposes this, one of two things have already happened: either the woman is already banging some guy or guys, or the woman has someone lined up that she wants to bang. Always. She wouldn't propose it unless she already has someone lined up. The woman will get laid within 48 hours of her husband agreeing, but it will take multiple months before the man will find someone. If the man does find someone prettier and younger than his wife, the wife will get jealous. The woman will demand they close the marriage up. Or she considers the man to be just a source of income and a roommate, does not have sex with her husband at all, just the other guy. In that case she doesn't care. Any woman who loves her man will never let her man have sex with another woman.

But now mainstream media is pushing the idea of an open marriage. Why would mainstream media do something so stupid? This is a deliberate attempt to trick women into doing something stupid that will destroy their marriage. I suspect this is a deliberate attack on our society. Who is behind it? Who has a long-term plan to destroy all western nations?

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-03 16:24:36

For All ... This topic is intended to be about the (likely) introduction of the Artificial Womb into society....

If a member would like to make a post about the ills of society, there are literally hundreds of other topics to consider for such a post.

I would like ** this ** topic to be interesting and rewarding for a future reader.

A deep dive into the ills of society on Earth seems (to me at least) misplaced in a topic about a new technology that will (or could) allow dwindling populations to reconstitute themselves.

If a woman does not want to be forced to give birth, or to care for the child for 20 years, the male can take on that responsibility.

The population of Earth will (most likely) quadruple as soon as this technology is available for use.

(th)

RobertDyck · 2023-01-03 17:33:58

I tried to focus on the technology, but no one responded to that. You turned it to society impacts. You addressed ills of society. I just responded to that.

SpaceNut · 2023-01-03 21:08:19

Saragat wombs have been the closest to an artificial in that the seed of life is implanted into it to finish growing. Life has also been started on slides and in test tubes but how far do you need to go to bring life to full term depends on is it viability at what month as size would have an effect on this womb.
A placenta is for nourishment, that blood brings in its food and more so once you have a machine with those sources to be brought to the life what else is really required.

RobertDyck · 2023-01-03 22:17:41

Looking further at the technology. When a blastocyst first embeds in the womb wall, it doesn't have a placenta. The cells of the blastocyst must be fed by mother's blood just like any other tissue. So that means the rubber panel of the artificial womb must perfuse artificial blood.

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-03 22:21:47

For SpaceNut re #10

Thanks for thinking about the proposed technology.

I am most interested in the question of how human society would make use of this capability.

You've mentioned rent-a-womb services that are used by couples that cannot have their own children for whatever reason.

My guess is that millions of people who cannot find partners in life (for whatever reason) might be interested in taking on the responsibility of raising a child with their own genetic material, combined with that of a donor.

The (hypothetical at this point) artificial womb is a small part of the big picture. Whoever contracts to have a child grown in one of these devices would be responsible for the development of that life to adulthood, with all the challenge ** that ** entails.

(th)

Calliban · 2023-01-03 23:27:49

I don't know enough about the physiology of gestation to offer anything solid. But an obvious question is whether we could grow a fetus in fluid up to the point of viability, without any placenta? Is there any way of sustaining it in blood or oxygen enriched nutrient solution via diffusion? Would it help if we pressurised the solution to increase the concentration of dissolved oxygen? An artificial placenta could be inserted at some point. This would deliver nutrition into the child's intestines.

Regarding the rearing of children, fostering is already very common. My aunt and uncle do this. Their own children are grown up. Maybe artificially gestated children could be raised in large family groups like Umbrella Academies.

Calliban · 2023-01-04 00:32:20

RobertDyck wrote:

The latest trend is for media to push the idea of an open marriage. Those who know a lot more than me have pointed out this only works if both individuals believe in open sexuality before they meet, before they get married. Attempting to open a marriage after the fact never, ever, ever works. 100% of the time it results in the marriage failing. 100%! No exceptions. In the vast majority of cases it's the woman who proposes an open marriage. Realize what this means: it means the woman intends to commit adultery. Do not agree to this! Most women expect that they will be able to get sausage but their husband just won't be able to get a woman. When a woman proposes this, one of two things have already happened: either the woman is already banging some guy or guys, or the woman has someone lined up that she wants to bang. Always. She wouldn't propose it unless she already has someone lined up. The woman will get laid within 48 hours of her husband agreeing, but it will take multiple months before the man will find someone. If the man does find someone prettier and younger than his wife, the wife will get jealous. The woman will demand they close the marriage up. Or she considers the man to be just a source of income and a roommate, does not have sex with her husband at all, just the other guy. In that case she doesn't care. Any woman who loves her man will never let her man have sex with another woman.
But now mainstream media is pushing the idea of an open marriage. Why would mainstream media do something so stupid? This is a deliberate attempt to trick women into doing something stupid that will destroy their marriage. I suspect this is a deliberate attack on our society. Who is behind it? Who has a long-term plan to destroy all western nations?

Good post Robert. I have my own theories about who is out to vandalise western countries. I have shared them before. A lot of people will call you a Nazi if you openly discuss what this particular fifth column has done to western society. The first thing this fifth column did was to engineer laws and tabboos that prevented any criticism of their behaviour. Any criticism of these people is now psychologically linked in the western mind to pathetic sob stories around the holocaust.

Women are certainly different to what they used to be. When I first started work back in the early 2000s, I was shocked by the number of married female engineers that tried it on with me. My experience was far from unique. About half of the men I worked with were having affairs in the work place. None of those tarts have ever got what they wanted from me, but I have always tried to deal with the situation without embarrassing them. I think part of the problem is that many of them are childless and are therefore not that invested in their marriages.

The past fifty years have also seen some unhealthy trends with promiscuity. A huge amount of damage has been inflicted of western women, apparently to 'liberate' them. It is common now for girls in their mid teens to start having sex with casual boyfreinds. Gone are the days when women were virgins up until marriage. Usually they have gone through several boyfreinds before one of those men decides he isn't going to do any better and marries her. This basically destroys a woman before she even is a woman. If a woman has started life in this way, there is no way back for her. Any marriage she might have is doomed from the start. Her promiscuity isn't going to stop because she went through a ceremony and has a gold ring on her finger. And without stable marriage, there is no stable base to allow the growth of a family. This is why birthrates are dropping. I don't think it is just because children are expensive. Children have always been expensive. It is because western women have been ruined to the point that they just don't have the right qualities to be the nucleus of a family. Fertility rate in western countries started declining in the 1960s, thanks to damage inflicted by the 'sexual revolution' on western women.

I have known men who were so disgusted with what was on offer to them, that they turned into misogenistic women haters. My brother has started to turn that way. But I cannot blame western women for the damage that has been inflicted upon them. Most of them are as unhappy with their situation as men are. I blame the degenerate fifth column that were allowed to gain control of our media and culture in the first place. They did this to us. Now we are reduced to talking about growing babies in nutrient sacks because so few western women are suitable for motherhood.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-01-04 00:51:29)

RobertDyck · 2023-01-04 02:41:37

If any women think "all men" are guilty of cheating, let met tell you a couple stories. From March 2003 to March 2005 I worked at a company called Micropilot. They manufacture miniature autopilots for UAVs. The owner was a grey haired and balding. His wife was the controller (accountant) for the company. They owned the company 50/50. He had an affair with a 27-year-old woman from Germany, and had a baby with the other woman. Obviously that ended his marriage. The receptionist had been promoted to marketing. One day the marketing woman received an email from the owner with pictures from Germany of his new-born baby. The marketing woman showed the estranged wife the pictures. There were several desks in that part of the building, including my desk. I was trying to arrange a supplier to fabricate a custom part. The marketing woman overheard me and made a remark about "businessmen". The owner's wife stood up straight with eyes wide open staring at me. I saw this. Oh, shit! I do not want to get in the middle of someone else's divorce. I certainly won't get involved with the estranged wife of the owner!

The Christmas party that year was held at the home of one of the employees. The owner brought his new young woman and their newborn baby. I saw the baby but didn't approach to say hi. When the owner and his new woman left, everyone said goodbye. I joined the crowd to wave goodbye. The young woman with the owner noticed me. She said "I *HAVE* to get to know *YOU*!" The owner and father of her baby was standing right beside her as she said that. He got angry! What the hell?!? I'm a nerd! I have difficulty getting dates! The owner's estranged wife expressed interest in me because I was the only single guy in the company. But his new woman too?!? What the hell?!? After that the owner made my life a living hell. The owner didn't want to renew my contract when it was up for renewal. Some young supervisor tried to advocate for me, to get me renewed, but frankly after everything the owner did to show how much he hates me, I didn't want to renew either. So I lost that job.

What was the second story?

Terraformer · 2023-01-04 04:39:41

Ahem.

Reports the Daily Mail

Pretty sure this was a piece of fiction. The Daily Mail has trouble distinguishing fiction from reality. I expect to see lab grown uteruses for transplant before womb-tanks. Sorry sci-fi nerds, the fanfic writers and their MPreg will happen first

But the bottleneck for having children isn't a supply of women willing and able to bear them -- desired fertility is above replacement, if every woman had the number of children she wanted we'd have a healthy fertility rate -- it's raising them. Children cost money, and time, and space, however they're gestated. Artificial wombs might help a little on the margins I suppose. Perhaps by enabling gay couples to have children of their own blood (without hiring the body of a poor woman in some foreign country).

Calliban · 2023-01-04 04:41:57

Robert, you were treated terribly and should have sued. I hope you were able to bounce back quickly from that injustice.

Here is an article from a year ago on an artificial uterus. It is being considered as a tool for treating premature babies.
https://scienceinfo.net/artificial-uter … do-it.html

The question is, can we construct a device (or devices) that can incubate a child from fertilised egg to healthy baby?

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-04 07:28:59

For Terraformer re #16

Thanks for returning to add much needed perspective to the opening post for this topic.

The name of the entity in the report is: EctoLife

It would be helpful if someone has time and curiosity to follow up.

Meanwhile, several members have offered sentiments that parallel my contention that raising an embryo to gestation is one thing. Raising a young human is quite another matter.

The NewMars archive contains a few posts about raising children to become successful and productive citizens.

Some posts go into detail on education, for example.

It would not be out of order (in my opinion at least) for this forum to contain a topic about raising children.

There are (after all) multiple published books on the subject, and (I'd expect) a variety of articles published in magazines or newspapers, and now on the Internet.

The conditions on Mars are similar to dangerous environments on Earth, where parents (and the community) are trying to raise children despite the hardships.

Concerns would be physical safety, nutrition, education, socialization, psychological support (ie, caring), exercise, useful activity as well as play.

(th)

RobertDyck · 2023-01-04 07:32:56

Calliban: I was treated badly so chose not to renew my contract. If I wanted to fight it, I should have renewed. I loved that job until the owner treated me like that. It was the only job where I got to design and build hardware as well as software. I didn't pay well, but I loved the work. No, I didn't bounce back quickly. It was a year before I got another full-time job.

Terraformer: Could catch. I didn't notice the source. I had heard about this from other sources before Tom posted the link to the Yahoo news story. The Yahoo story is the first time I saw the actual video. I heard about it, but didn't see it myself. But part of my point in post #3 (long one) is the video looks like a scam artist trying to get money from investors, when they really don't know what they're doing. A friend is trying to start a business. He asked me to be part of his board of directors. He offered a salary once he gets funding. That funding has been "any day now" since last spring, so I'm not holding my breath. But part of his business was to broker business loans, and he asked me to evaluate technology proposals. I've seen one that looks very good. I let others evaluate the finances of the proposal, but my job was to evaluate the technology. Another proposal had questionable technology, my advice was "no". He's given up the idea of brokering business loans, is trying to get involved directly in some big projects. But my evaluation of the artificial womb proposal from "Ectolife" is that it has 3 fundamental flaws:

They want to connect directly to baby's umbilical cord. You don't want to touch baby's blood directly, that could cause blood clots that cause all sorts of medical problems. And how do you grow the baby from blastocyst to embryo that has an umbilical cord?
They want a "bioreactor" to convert baby's waste to nutrients. That means converting urine (piss) to food. We have a technology to do that, it's called a farm. Trying to incorporate that into a factory farm for babies is stupid. Just dump the urine down a sewer and buy food. As I said in post #3, the food has to be the same as intravenous food (IV food) used by hospitals today.
They have a hard shell for the womb. That would cause problems for the baby. A real artificial womb must "cuddle" the baby, providing support. That means a soft rubber, and the rubber must sit on some sort of pillow or cushion.

Calliban: You asked if we can construct a device that can incubate a child from fertilized egg to healthy baby. The answer is yes, but one key component requires serious research and development. That is the patch of rubber that acts as the mother's uterus wall. Most of the artificial womb can use a type of silicone rubber that's transparent. But one patch of rubber must allow the blastocyst to embed, then must perfuse the blastocyst with synthetic blood to feed it while it grows. Then that same patch of rubber must interface to the placenta, again providing artificial blood to feed the baby.

Oh! I guess there's another area of research. Does the mother provide hormones via her blood? Will we have to provide hormones via the artificial blood? Which hormones, how much, and what timing? By "timing" I mean do the hormones change during pregnancy: some when it's a blastocyst, different when it's an embryo, different when it's a fetus, different just before birth, etc?

RobertDyck · 2023-01-16 17:04:51

Tom is interested in how the technology is used and how it will affect society. We could talk about extremes but to keep things reasonable I'll talk from personal experience.

I turned 60 last summer. I've never been married, no children. Desperately want a wife and children. At least one baby. From July 1989 thru July 1990, when I was 27, I lived common-law with a woman. The last half of that year we were engaged. That is to say after 6 months together I asked her to marry me and she said Yes. She had a 9-year-old daughter from a previous marriage. The father had primary custody, we had the girl every other weekend. The girl acceptef me as her step-dad and I loved her as my own daughter. But the first weekend we spent apart she returned home with a hickey on her nipple. She met a guy the first night we spent apart. In her words spent the whole weekend. We slept together Sunday night. Monday she told me about her weekend. She seriously expected me to accept her continuing her affair, while living with me. I insisted she never see the other guy again. A couple days later she moved her stuff out of our room into her daughter's room. Told friends and family that I was nothing but a roommate. I cancelled the lease on the house, moved my stuff out back to Winnipeg. She had until the end of the month to move out.

I never really recovered from that. I tried to find another girlfriend, but a major issue is I have trouble trusting women. I have had girlfriends since, but if anything isn't perfect I ended it before she could hurt me.

I met someone a few years ago. She's a couple years younger than me, but not a huge difference. She had a previous marriage. She has her own issues from her ex. But she had her children, one daughter and one son. They're now in they're early 20s, adult and moved out. Her son is getting married. She is certainly not willing to start over. Even if there was an alternative such as adoption, she's not willing to raise another child. She's glad her child rearing days are over. But I've never had my children and never gave that up. I *NEED* a baby. I don't want adoption. I want to conceive a baby by making love to my wife, I want to take care of her while she's pregnant, be present at the baby's birth. I desperately want to be a Dad. The woman broke up with me in March 2021 over something trivial. We're now friends but haven't "been together" since the break up. An artificial womb won't solve our problems.

Her daughter is early 20s, but doesn't want to get pregnant. I mentioned the artificial womb. The young woman likes the idea. She could have a child without pregnancy.

I created dating profiles on a number of websites last spring. Many websites proved to be scams. A Canadian website I used in 2003 is still there. Almost no local women though. I get 2 to 12 "likes" per day from woman, but many of those profiles are scams. Most "women" claim to live in the US. I did respond to a couple woman. Unfortunately they proved to be scams. Unfortunately I fell for it, lost a couple thousand dollars. I heard stories from news websites of people who lost a lot more than me.

So I still need to find a woman young enough to get pregnant. An artificial womb won't help. I don't want to be a single dad. I want a family.

RobertDyck · 2023-01-16 17:30:58

Calliban wrote:

I don't know enough about the physiology of gestation to offer anything solid. But an obvious question is whether we could grow a fetus in fluid up to the point of viability, without any placenta? Is there any way of sustaining it in blood or oxygen enriched nutrient solution via diffusion? Would it help if we pressurised the solution to increase the concentration of dissolved oxygen? An artificial placenta could be inserted at some point. This would deliver nutrition into the child's intestines.

That's a good idea but over simplistic. The baby grows the placenta. The blastocyst grows to become the amniotic sac, fluid, placenta, umbilical cord, and of course the baby. But it does solve one problem: how to feed the blastocyst before it grows a placenta? In a natural pregnancy the blastocyst embeds itself into the womb wall. It dissolves bonds between cells of the endometrium, the inner lining of the mother's womb, and embeds between the endometrium and myometrium. At that point it's a small ball of cells. Some structure: a hollow ball one cell thick with a lump of cells on one side of the inside of the ball. For in-vitro fertilization they often use a tool to help the blastocyst to "hatch" from the protective shell so it can embed in the mother's womb. For an artificial womb we would also do that, but embedding can be done simply with a plastic film that adheres to the rubber womb wall. Just pace the blastocyst between rubber and film the close the film like a bandaid. The rubber would have channels that full the space between rubber and film with artificial blood. Other channels would collect the artificial blood, causing the "blood" to wash over the blastocyst.

There are a couple attempts at artificial blood. These carry oxygen and CO2 like blood. They were developed for emergency services when real blood is not available. They have issues, they're not perfect, but good enough for an artificial womb because it won't enter baby's body, just wash across the blastocyst then later wash across the villi of the placenta. The latest blood is a perfluorocarbon compound. The blood would also have the same intravenous food that hospitals currently use. Oxygen and food would fees baby. The baby would deposit CO2 and urine into the artificial blood, so it will need a heart-lung machine and dialysis machine. But these machines will process artificial blood, not baby's blood.

The rubber will require channels that act as spiral arteries and veins. Channels for the blastocyst must be open immediately but the rest must have a plug that will be dissolved by the enzymes that baby's placenta uses to open mother's arteries and veins. As the placenta grows, the placenta itself will open more channels resulting in more artificial blood flow across the villi of the placenta.

::Edit::
Wikipedia: Blood substitute

Last edited by RobertDyck (2023-01-16 23:16:11)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-05-09 07:26:33

Ethics in outer space: can we make interplanetary exploration just? - The prospect of settling the Moon, Mars and elsewhere requires urgent conversations about issues such as labour and reproductive rights far from Earth.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-01551-7

tahanson43206 · 2023-05-21 09:54:56

RobertDyck included "artificial womb" in a list of possible industries, in a recent post in a new topic about starting a company.

I decided to ask Google what work is being done in that direction, and found this lengthy and detailed report.

https://www.chop.edu/news/unique-womb-d … ure-babies

The work is being done to help extremely premature babies. The work is (apparently) being done with lamb embryos.

This is NOT a full conception to normal delivery artificial womb, but it appears to show the way forward.

In this case, the premature baby is immersed in simulated embryonic fluid, and heart and lungs are allowed to develop normally.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-11-29 20:16:22

This is for Mars_B4_Moon ... This post is inspired by your very recent post about .7 reproduction rate for South Korea recently ...

It occurred to me that the situation of South Korea and Japan (I gather) and perhaps other ethnic groups, would provide incentive for acceleration of artificial womb technology.

This topic is available if you happen to run across reports of research along these lines, similar to or perhaps beyond that reported in Post #23

(th)

Void · 2023-11-29 21:17:03

I suppose that I venture into a pool of sharks, not the members but those who may read.

I am concerned about the loss of certain male bloodlines. Such a womb and also robots could help the human race avoid this problem.

I believe that the females of the west are genocidal in their preferences. Stone Age desires. A dominant male that they can somehow "Lock Down" is the process. But this is not what a space fairing technological people may need as their genetics.

Sadly, our government here in the US seems to be very happy to run a house of ill repute, financially. I think however terrified I might be of the peoples who have Mongol blood in them that somehow, they may help save us from this. In my opinion our country and the continent are out of balance, and it seems that they may want to butcher bunches of boys again in some quest for a perfect male. I would like to force them to eat magots from the rotting flesh of the boys they send to slaughter.

Is that unreasonable. Well, I am most definitely not average. It is only a deranged wish, not something I would seek to make emerge. I am required to be better than that.

So indeed, a strange future, perhaps. My studies have indicated that the masculine has to rise in this era. But the resistance to that seems very strong so far.

My notions suggest that a male selecting for advanced features in a mate, may avoid a stone age sticks and stones genetic reversion.

But maybe I need a strait jacket and some drugs. I am not to live so much longer as per estimate of age, so that could be amusing.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-29 21:26:15)

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