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#1501 2023-12-03 16:14:18

Void
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Yes it might be desired to have subtropical orange orchards, and that may be possible but that would be for a price.  I am looking for bargains.

A cheaper route would be to make farmable organisms that can grow with minimal efforts and yet produce what is needed.  Maybe that will be possible over time.  It is what has been done before.

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#1502 2023-12-03 22:22:40

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Well, I think that Mars/Phobos/Deimos is a good combination to be followed by the Asteroid Belt.

I have expressed my interest in the Saturn System.

I was looking at pairing Phobe and Titan.  Phobe orbits retrograde, but materials from it could be aero braked to Titan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebe_(moon)
Image Quote: 330px-Phoebe_cassini.jpg
Quote:

Phoebe is roughly spherical and has a diameter of 213±1.4 km[4] (132 mi), approximately one-sixteenth that of the Moon. It is Saturn's ninth-largest moon, but it might be the eighth-most massive.

So, how many cubic miles is that?  I don't need a precise value just a guess of how much Swiss cheese it is.

So, let's just say it is 1,000,000 cubic miles of rocky materials, and 1,000,000 cubic miles of ice.  It may not be that much but so what, it has to be enough.  What could you build with that?

While I was moving on those thoughts, I read that the rings of Saturn are not just ice but rocky materials, maybe some the size of mountains.

https://www.space.com/18472-what-is-sat … 0the%20sun.  Quote:

Stretching as far out as 262,670 miles (422,730 km), or eight times the radius of the planet, the rings are made up of ice and rock pieces that create a rainbow effect as they refract the light from the sun.

So, that may say that indeed Saturn is special.  There can be many types of power including types of nuclear and also solar.  And the broken contents of a moon or moons is available as well as many small moons.  And a Mercury sized world with a dense Nitrogen atmosphere and a small gravity well.

Sounds really good.

Yes, the mirrors for solar power have to be perhaps x100, but they can be very thin in microgravity.

And again, yes nuclear of many types perhaps.

I think I recall 1.5% of Earth light at Saturn.

So, really, possible, I feel.

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Last edited by Void (2023-12-04 10:01:27)


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#1503 2023-12-04 10:08:23

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

As it happens it seems Isaac Arthur was in the rings/Saturn business prior to this: https://isaacarthur.net/video/colonizin … ary-rings/

Colonizing planetary Rings

So, he thinks the rings of Saturn have some rocky dust, and mostly ices.

So, he covers it rather well, I feel.

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I recall Dr. Johnson talking about Nuclear Thermal Rockets to be filled from the rings of Saturn.

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Last edited by Void (2023-12-04 10:43:08)


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#1504 2023-12-04 10:44:48

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Usually, I have thought about. melting ices, but now looking at Phoebe, I am thinking about instead, of sublimating cavities inside such a world as Phoebe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebe_(moon)
Image Quote: 330px-Phoebe_cassini.jpg
Quote:

Phoebe is roughly spherical and has a diameter of 213±1.4 km[4] (132 mi), approximately one-sixteenth that of the Moon. It is Saturn's ninth-largest moon, but it might be the eighth-most massive.

So, if you have such a cavity, then if you can put your machinery inside of it, you could let waste heat graduclly expand it.  If you could collect the gasses, dust, and rocks as raw materials, then that may be rather convenient.

You could end up with several very large VOIDS in Phoebe, other types of moons or Centaur objects.

Of course, energy is an issue there.

However, as your cavities expanded you could build solar energy collectors' exterior to the object, or if you are using nuclear, of course that might be convenient.

Beamed power from elsewhere would not be impossible as a contributor.

I choose Phoebe as it may be a captured Centaur and that is of interest.  It also may be 50% rock more or less, but may have ices of value, possibly even Ammonia with Nitrogen in it.

Other moons, more prograde, may not provide easy rocky materials.

And since Titan has an atmosphere, rocky exports from Phoebe, in that manner to Titan or even the orbits of Titan.  It may even be possible to aerobrake into Saturn or around it.

So, this could be a case where you simply evaporate your way into the interior of the moon Phoebe gradually, creating cavities, harvesting the raw materials released.  Excess materials could be built into structure using slag and excess ices.  I am interested in water filled spin Lakes/Seas.

It should not be much trouble at all t use mass drivers and apace elevators for Phoebe.

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#1505 2023-12-04 11:44:23

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

So, then Evaporation Mining, could of course be Shaft Mining or Dome Strip Mining.

So, in Dome Strip Mining.

So, this dome would not be very pressurized inside, but you could attach habitat devices and production materials on it.

So, the dome might be expanded in circumference over time, or just to melt a shaft downward.  The edges of the dome could be sealed by vapor to solid freezing.

The size of the moon would matter.  For larger ones mass shifts like landslides might be a problem.

Some icy moons are rubbles piles in the cases of rather small, perhaps.  Medium moons may have rocky cores, and ice shells with maybe a little rock in the shells.

Larger moons may have liquid water.

I would think that for evaporation mining, the medium to small moons might be to best profit chances.

I think Phoebe may have pockets of rock and ices, and so may be better than some of the other moons.

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Last edited by Void (2023-12-04 11:52:10)


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#1506 2023-12-05 10:12:17

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

OK, then, I am further considering "Skin-Dome Refineries" on small moons.

Small moons can be differentiated as may have happened, where the ices are strongly on top and the core strongly towards the center.  But there are small moons that are perhaps rubble piles that never-the-less have been made spherical by gravity.  These may have a less segregated differentiation of materials.

So, different moons and different processes perhaps.  Much more to discover than is known at this point.

But, of these moons, some may yield rocky materials early.  I have had my eye on Phoebe for this.  But they may all have a little bit of it in their ice shells.

Perhaps we could hope for a "United Worlds Of Saturn" situation economically.

While it may seem a curse of so much ice of various sorts, it is a gift.  While rocky materials may be a bit harder, they are not impossible.

Now then how to get to the core materials of a icy small moon?

So, a moon refinery might do its part to be the roof above a sublimation pit, evaporation pit.  Various products could be produced, plastics, wood-similar products, various thing like water, Methane, Ammonia, Oxygen, and so on, until the core could be reached.

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Last edited by Void (2023-12-05 10:32:29)


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#1507 2023-12-06 08:26:33

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I see the "Cavity Mining" method to be most suitable for small spherical, icy covered moons.  Jupiter does not seem to have any,  Saturn does, as well as perhaps Uranus and Neptune.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moons_of_Saturn

https://www.pinterest.com.mx/pin/308004061996905102/

https://www.planetary.org/space-images/ … s-to-scale
Image Quote: 20200604_saturns-lagest-moons.jpg.webp
Quote:

Saturn's largest moons, to scale
SATURN'S LARGEST MOONS, TO SCALE This montage shows Saturn's largest moons to scale using data from NASA's Cassini spacecraft. The images are part of a larger collage that can be found here. NASA / JPL-Caltech / Montage by Emily Lakdawalla / Processing by Processing by Ted Stryk, Gordan Ugarkovic, Emily Lakdawalla, and Jason Perry.

So, sublimation mining would be able to use heat stored in the ices.  The deeper you would dig a pit the more sublimation may occur.  This would be unlike liquifying an ocean over a core where you would have to phase transition from very cold ice to liquid water.

I would default to the dome covering the pit having the approximate shape of the sphere of the world.  The shell partially covering the moon would be very insulating, so as to store existing heat and to also store waste heat from the refinery which would be inside of the cavity/pit.

The "Air Pressure" inside would be greater than the local vacuum on the surface fo that moon.  Could be as high as Mars air pressure, but I expect a lower pressure would do just fine.

In digging such a pit ice deformation should be expected, glaciation sort of, but the gravity is low.  But there would be some.

A landslide would not be desirable.

So, these moons would be "Partial Shell Worlds".  Mating the edges of the partial shell dome edges with the remaining ice mass should not be too hard, maybe using a spray of water vapor to build an ice bond shell to surface, this perhaps needing periodic repairs/expansions.

Nuclear power for this would be rather convenient of course, but orbital solar power stations with very large mirrors would not be out of the question.  The power could be beamed to the Cavity Refinery.

The ices one could hope for would be water, Methane, Ammonia.  And little bits of rocky materials could be expected. 
And CO2 ice I suppose.

Mush of the water could end up inside of spin gravity devices or even as solid structures.

The collection of moons would allow inter-moon commerce and so the lopsided amounts of materials on some moons might be compensated for.  Even Titan's gravity is not so much, it could supply Carbon and Nitrogen.

Eventually if it were possible to dig deep enough a sea and/or core could be accesses.

So, the Saturn System would have a lot of room for economic growth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mimas
Quote:

Mimas is the smallest astronomical body known to be roughly rounded in shape due to its own gravity. Mimas's low density, 1.15 g/cm3, indicates that it is composed mostly of water ice with only a small amount of rock. The moon's presence has created one of the largest 'gaps' in Saturn's ring, named the Cassini Division, due to orbital resonance destabilizing the particles' orbit there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhea_(moon)
Quote:

Rhea is an icy body with a density of about 1.236 g/cm3. This low density indicates that it is made of ~25% rock (density ~3.25 g/cm3) and ~75% water ice (density ~0.93 g/cm3). Although Rhea is the ninth-largest moon, it is only the tenth-most massive moon. Indeed, Oberon, the second-largest moon of Uranus, has almost the same size, but is significantly denser than Rhea (1.63 vs 1.24) and thus more massive, although Rhea is slightly larger by volume.

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Last edited by Void (2023-12-06 09:14:09)


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#1508 2023-12-06 10:04:28

Void
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Additional possible connections could be products from Isaac Arthur, I think.

Mining the atmosphere of Saturn, and power beamed in from the inner-more solar system.
https://isaacarthur.net/video/atmospheric-mining/

I think that tethers might work.  But really with all the moons of Saturn and the rings, other than Helium 3, I think everything needed would be available.

And of course rocky materials from the inner-more solar system, perhaps the asteroids.

One method to mover materials between Saturn and Mars, could be solar sails.  Here once again people might get confused.  These sails would not carry payload, they would be the payload.  Of course lasers might help to propel such sail, or just sunlight.  Probably at Saturn's light flux, lasers may be wanted to hurry things along.

From the Asteroids, and Mars/Phobos/Deimos, heavier materials in the form of a solar sail.  From the Saturn System, materials similar to plastics.

I suppose this trade could involve our Moon, Mercury, Venus and Earth also.

So, after the asteroids, I think the Saturn worlds are the next big thing.

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Last edited by Void (2023-12-06 10:13:16)


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#1509 2023-12-07 14:32:33

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

After Dr. Johnson pointed out the limitations of Lasers, I felt I could and maybe should make this post: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 50#p216950

Quote:

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Email
Without disrespect: https://spectrum.ieee.org/power-beaming-2665745442
Quote:

NEWS
DARPA Hopes to Beam Power Across 200 Kilometers Lasers could one day relay power to remote areas, or even from orbital arraysCHARLES Q. CHOI02 OCT 20234 MIN READ

But indeed, that is a long way away from interplanetary scale.

Perhaps in a few hundred years the skill might develop for longer sends.

But for now, I would think that using lasers to power a propulsion which vaporizes a substance for propulsion.

In the case where I mentioned Saturn, elsewhere, the substance could be water, or Hydrogen.

If you shoved a solar sail towards the sun using that method, then the solar sail might be pushed to a level of sunlight where it could move it's mass in a reasonable time.

However, reasonable time could be decades, if it were only sending plastic film to a inner world.

As for actually beaming power to Saturn from around Mercury, I think that the receiver might need to be the size of a moon.

You could overlap many, many laser beams and expect a large expansion of the beams.  But maybe never.  I am just projecting a possible case.  Possible maybe but probable?  Very questionable.

As for sending a solar sail from Mercury, then CO2 could be the fluid to give the initial boost, and then by the time it got to Saturn, all the light could do for the most part would be to steer it into orbit.

A Ballistic Capture to Saturn should be possible, so no Hohmann Transfer or aeroburn needed.  These would likely be of metals, I expect.

But we will have to really get technologically better to make this work.

Not in my lifetime, I am quite sure.

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Last edited by Void (Today 15:31:18)

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Last edited by Void (2023-12-07 14:34:05)


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#1510 2023-12-09 12:43:55

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I want to point out that if I mention transmitting power over long distances as a possibility, I cannot at all be certain that that will turn out to be possible or the best way to do things.

But I want to ponder possibilities just the same.

For the moment I will work with Titan again, with the idea that some kind of Fusion power will become practical, at least for the environment of Saturn/Titan, if not for the Earth.

While the energy would certainly be nice, I am looking at the Helium 4, and what might be done with it on Titan.

I am seeking to have a cold Titan surface maintained, and yet have habitation in shelters in the atmosphere of Titan that may be suitable for humans.  The surface pressure of Titan is?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Titan
Quote:

The surface pressure is about 50% higher than on Earth at 1.5 bars (147 kPa)[1] which is near the triple point of methane and allows there to be gaseous methane in the atmosphere and liquid methane on the surface

So, 1 bar to 2/3 bar of pressure N2/O2 may be suitable for humans.

So, I am thinking about floating structures, and those possibly anchored to the surface with cables, but I also am interested in Helium filled stilts with neutral buoyancy.  A material that would be strong in the cold would be wanted, if possible, to get, for that purpose.

Quote:

Titan's lower gravity means that its atmosphere is far more extended than Earth's; even at a distance of 975 km, the Cassini spacecraft had to make adjustments to maintain a stable orbit against atmospheric drag.

It appears that there is more Hydrogen higher up, and maybe that also could be a lifting gas if it could be harvested at a fast enough rate and not cost too much to do so.

Of course, Methane ice accumulations could be a concern, not sure.

I am supposing that Tholin's might be considered a resource.  If they could be harvested at an altitude then clear skies might be generated as well, and still to allow the lower layers to exist, providing an anti-greenhouse effect for the surface.

Habitat floating in the sky may still be radiation protected, well enough, but might radiate waste heat to the universe, while reducing the heating of the surface of Titan.

From this "Upstairs" it might be possible to see Stars, other moons, and Saturn as well, if you were on the correct part of Titan.

Well, if you like Sci-Fi Visions there is one.  I am going to rest, but I have other things I want to talk about.

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Last edited by Void (2023-12-09 13:16:26)


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#1511 2023-12-09 14:48:02

Void
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

It would be good if there were undifferentiated moons around Saturn.  Phoebe seems to be but is retrograde in orbit.  I might prefer one that would be in the same orbit as Titan.

There is some reason think that Rhea, may be somewhat undifferentiated, or even mostly undifferentiated.  That would make it a good partner for Titan, as in that case Rhea would have rocky materials mixed with ice near the surface, where sublimation mining might expose it to be utilized and exported to Titan.

But there are moons that seem to be almost completely ice.  Calliban has been helpful on making aqua formed worlds from that.  I also think that spin gravity worlds could be aquatic as well.

But I have wondered about water for propulsion.  In this case I would not be getting too exotic in thinking.  But I wonder about mixing a little bit of Hydrogen into it prior to using it in a fission nuclear thermal propulsion system.

Generally, the more compressed water is, the more of a gas you can dissolve into it.  I suspect that the added Hydrogen would improve the performance quite a bit.  I seem to recall Dr. Johnson mentioning water in nuclear rockets at one time.  I think water from the rings of Saturn.

While Hydrogen is the preferred propellant, Saturn offers endless amounts of water in its moons.  The pinch of Hydrogen might improve performance, I am hoping.  And then you might wonder about involving the nuclear saltwater propulsion of Dr. Zubrin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_salt-water_rocket

Anyway, I am wondering if Oxygen could come from the Moon, to make water in Earth orbits, if a Water/Hydrogen process might pay off for nuclear?  The point would be that the water would be easier to store than Hydrogen.  So, with this then less Hydrogen to store.

At any rate the process may make sense if you are in an icy location in the solar system.

I would think that a booster of that kind could push a rolled-up plastic solar sail into a path were it could unfurl into the denser sunlight of the more inner solar system and make a prolonged trip to some place where the plastic would be wanted.  This notion would be closer to our current reality than using lasers to push the sails from Saturn's gravity well.

And then let's suppose that the sails would travel to the Earth/Moon orbits, rather than and then the Moon could make metal sails.  I would hope that those could go to Saturn.

In the beginning perhaps the plastic sails would come from outer belt asteroids like Ceres, but who knows, maybe Mars for a while?

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#1512 2023-12-10 09:40:47

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

This morning I am thinking about building things from available bulk materials.  Pykrete is not the only one possible, but yes things similar to Pykrete.

And this could apply to cold places of course, which includes parts of Mars and worlds outwards from the sun, and if the ice were available to the shadowed polar craters of the Moon and Mercury.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pykrete
Quote:

Pykrete (/ˈpaɪkriːt/, PIE-creet)[1] is a frozen ice composite,[2] originally made of approximately 14% sawdust or some other form of wood pulp (such as paper) and 86% ice by weight (6 to 1 by weight).

During World War II, Geoffrey Pyke proposed it as a candidate material for a supersized aircraft carrier for the British Royal Navy. Pykrete features unusual properties, including a relatively slow melting rate due to its low thermal conductivity, as well as a vastly improved strength and toughness compared to ordinary ice. These physical properties can make the material comparable to concrete, as long as the material is kept frozen.

Pykrete is slightly more difficult to form than concrete, as it expands during the freezing process. However, it can be repaired and maintained using seawater as a raw material. The mixture can be moulded into any shape and frozen, and it will be tough and durable, as long as it is kept at or below freezing temperature. Resistance to gradual creep or sagging is improved by lowering the temperature further, to −15 °C (5 °F).

I did not think about salt in salt water being part of the building materials.  Fresh water ice may provide a different material.

Sources of Fiber: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_textile_fibres
I was thinking of Hemp, but something else might be better in space, but no particular reason to exclude Hemp unless you are someone in a social regulation structure.   I am not a user or in such a structure, and will indulge in the notion that I am allowed to talk about plant products without strange actions from such structures.

This article mentions Bamboo, which I think is also of interest for Pykrete: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemp

So, then structures will perhaps be built on a worlds surface, such as Mars, Callisto, or Titan, or in microgravity.

For the microgravity instance, a tensile "Corset" could be used to bound a cylinder of the stuff, or some other shape than a cylinder.  This is what has been proposed for rubble pile asteroids recently.  https://phys.org/news/2022-12-rubble-pi … itats.html  Image Quote: rubble-pile-asteroids-2.jpg

So then instead of rock rubble you would contain Pykrete with suitable plant fiber materials.

Then inside you could have a ductile envelope, such as in inflatable balloon of plastics, metal, or some other materials.

So, possibly very little metals required for the structures cylinder, if it is to be a cylinder.  It could be a Cigar shape, with a port(s) to bring energy of some sort inside.

This might work well in orbits of the gas giant planets, with the structures inside of the planet's magnetic fields.  I presume that like that of the Earth, the magnetic fields provide deadly areas as per radiation but also may provide some shelter from radiation in other places.  Not all are the same Saturn's magnetic field may be a better shelter than that of Jupiter?  I don't know.

For these structures, the hope would be that you could keep the Pykrete in a thermal state where it would be stable.  Vapor barriers would be useful, and probably some insulation on the insides, and some impactor protections on the outside.

And so, these structures might be made suitable to grow plants which might make ingredients for pykrete, such as maybe hemp or bamboo.

On the surface of Titan, itself if desired, I would think domes and tubes above ground might work out but of course artificial lights would be required.

But I have my eye on this for Mars, perhaps at high icy latitudes.

I am thinking again about the use of Heliostats to send photons into such structure.  So, this sort of thing again: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 38#p216538
Perhaps modifications of this: AHlnivD.png

While I thought of it as a dome, I think that canals with arches of Pykrete may do.  Windows somewhere near buttressing berms 2 & 3.  Tricky business, to "Pipe" light in through windows that way, but not impossible with AI to regulate the process.

Mars itself is very cold and even more so at high latitudes.

These people seem to think that covered canals are a good idea: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/compani … 9d908&ei=5  Image Quote: AA1keY4h.img?w=534&h=345&m=6

From my point of view, the covered canals would not have to be very pressurized, but if desired for a cost that could be improved to a higher pressure.  But A, B, and C offer potential to pressurize spaces above the canal.

The Canal itself will have liquid pressurization in its bottom.  The high latitudes would experience strong seasons, so it has to be able to avoid large damage from that.  It may become dormant in the winter. 

But I make the point that near the poles, you have at least 1/2 of a Martian Year where plenty of sunlight is available, and that there are two polar areas that will have summer at opposite times.

Piping in light from the sun may be an option, but it is also still true that chemical farming of Algae, and fungi/mushrooms would be possible, and while artificial lighting is currently expensive, it may not always be so.  With robotics the pricing may go down quite a lot.

So, then lots of radiation protected farming potential on Mars, I think.

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Last edited by Void (2023-12-10 10:33:43)


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#1513 2023-12-10 13:17:34

Void
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

So, to start with more about robots, with the idea that they may reduce manufacturing costs for power methods and structures:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9dUau8Yjjw
Quote:

Tesla Bot vs Figure 01 Humanoid Robot (Head to Head) | Scott Walter Reaction To Brett Adcock CEO

Brighter with Herbert

If we were to have canals with pykrete based canal/pipes similar to this: AHlnivD.png
That could be a cross section of a tube like canal/pipe.

We may really have 3 obvious options for farming in the water.
1) Pipe in light.
2) Artificial light.
3) Chemical farming of Algae and/or Fungi.

I think that #3 would be the least demanding and perhaps the most compatible with using the canals/pipes as having several productive characteristics.

The reason I started with humanoid robots is that for solar power robots would be important.  Either solar thermal electric or photovoltaic solar.  The robots may drop the price of the hardware.

If you have electricity, then you can make chemicals for farming Algae and/or Fungi.  Oxygen and acetate.
This again: https://www.udel.edu/udaily/2022/june/g … catalysis/
Quote:

In the work, the researchers used a two-step carbon dioxide electrolyzer system to produce a chemical compound called acetate. Electrolyzers are devices that use electricity to convert raw materials like carbon dioxide into useful molecules and products. Acetate is a common ingredient found in household items, such as vinegar, cosmetics and hair care products. But here, acetate was used to cultivate yeast, mushroom-producing fungus and photosynthetic green algae in the dark, without photosynthesis.

I have often described ice covered water, but we might try to have open water, where what is above it is a pykrete arch tube.

So, if we wanted to grow Algae in open water, here is the calculator: https://endmemo.com/chem/vaporpressurewater.php
- 2 degC = 5.2256 mbar (Sea Water Simulation for the Arctic Ocean).
10 degC = 12.2118 mbar
20 degC = 23.2977 mbar

3 feet thick of pykrete arch might deploy a counterpressure of ~27 mbar, (Just rough numbers).
(The exterior Martian air pressure is typically at least 5.5 mbar, so 32.5 mbar internal pressure the as an approximation).

The pykrete will need protections on its exterior and interior, such as vapor barriers and thermal insulation.

The warmer the water the more internal insulation that will be needed on the underside of the pykrete arches.

The method to make Oxygen and acetate will have waste heat that can keep the water inside liquid.  This would also deploy Oxygen into the tube above the water, at a low pressure.  Then the acetate could feed microbes.  The microbes would release heat while digesting the acetate and Oxygen.  If more heat is needed for the water than that could be added by heating methods of some kind.

These canals/pipes could then move these products over distances to population centers.  Food, Oxygen, water.

The bottoms of the canals may well be able to be sealed with permafrost, but if the water is warmer then some type of additional method may be needed.

There is of course the need to get microbes that will grow in such an environment.  This is not yet proven, but seems likely to be attainable to me.

I have not stated size and indeed they could be of various sizes.

Some readers may recall me talking about canoes before, and here it is again.  I think it at least can have consideration.

I have done a lot of Canoeing, and I think it is the method that could fit into such a system of canals/pipes.  It can include portages, which could work.  Canoes come in many sizes, small to rather large.

We have another member here who has worked with sending cargo though pipelines.  That is similar to this idea.  But the flow of water and the movement of canoes might be different from each other.

A canoe can move upstream or downstream, and even in a fair amount of water flow.  It could be self-propelled or towed from the land on the side of a canal/pipeline.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canoe

As the tube is to be filled with Oxygen, maybe fuel cells could power the device, but maybe batteries would be better as an explosion might rupture the Canal/Pipeline.

A system like this would not be that compatible with humans although they could be present or take a ride, but robotics might make it work out, greatly reducing the human labor.  Portaging could be robotic.

And floating cargo is considered an energy efficient way to move product.

Last edited by Void (2023-12-11 21:49:38)


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#1514 2023-12-11 21:51:29

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,844

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Possibly going larger scale on this sort of thing: AHlnivD.png

It could be that a very cold shell of Pykrete at high latitudes could serve as a radiator, if piping of some sort were embedded just under the outer skin of the shells.

If you then had some very good thermal insulation inside, you might have a warm interior.  The high latitudes winters and Martian night offer some very cold temperatures.  Such a radiator system could be used with nuclear power and perhaps geothermal.

Geothermal on Mars might be benefited by a cold side temperature much lower than what we have on Earth. So, could geothermal on Mars use CO2?  Maybe some type of hydrocarbon mix with an appropriate temperature response.

The cold pykrete radiator shells would offer some pretty good radiation protection and some opportunity to have pressurization in the interiors.

As for farming the interiors, I previously mentioned chemical farming, but also with robotics it could be hoped that the cost of artificial lighting might be better than what we have now.

Then also if windows are inconvenient, we may also suppose that future technology might offer useful fiber-optics to get light into the warm interiors.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-11 21:59:13)


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#1515 2023-12-13 09:01:48

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,844

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Here is Tesla Bot again.  I have use for this material here, but of course others may want to place similar elsewhere if they like.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/sho … 57d41&ei=9

Herbert has a video out from last night, but Dr. Know it all has this now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tThp-bRdRo Quote:

TeslaBot The Next Generation Is MIND BLOWING!

Dr. Know-it-all Knows it all
71.2K subscribers

Well, I am sure there will be more in the future.

But if we think about the Moon, eventually a version may be useful there.  Now I also think it is important to continue to strive to make it possible for humans to be on the Moon, but this device along with other machines, would be rather productive.

I am seeing what looks like despair about how many propellant starship flights would be needed to access the Moon for Artemus.  I think it will be OK, however, actually.  I will explain.

The ship itself is expected to have improved engines, and also be reduced in dry mass over time.

Also, I think that the call to land the ship on the Moon will fade over time.  It is good to be able to do so, but it is not efficient.  Once you have at site production of many needs from Lunar raw materials, it becomes a bit silly to land the ship, I feel.

I think we need new words for a version of Starship.  A propellant Starship is to service another Starship.  So we might want to say, "Servicing Starship".  But I also like "Host Starship".

HOST: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/host

A Host Starship may give a service to another ship somewhere, very likely in LEO.

It could give service to a ship already in orbit, or even bring a ship to orbit in its Cargo Hold(s).

As an example the Falcon 9 2nd stage could be Hosted in some fashion, either way.  While the Merlin Engines, may coke up, they can be restarted to some extent, so it may be possible to use them in space missions to the Moon.

A Lunar Lander based on the Falcon 9 2nd Stage might be possible.  It might even be possible to reuse one that lifted a payload to orbit.

I do not have numbers for it but I would hope that it might take just one Starship to prep a Falcon 9 based lander in LEO to go to the Moon.  and it also may be possible to lift a fresh Falcon 9 2nd stage to orbit nested inside of a Starship, I think.

But what of other 2nd stages from other vendors?  Terran-R, Neutron, Stoke Space?

See, I don't think that the Moon needs a continuous stream of Starships to land on it, but it will be good to have the capability to land it when it makes $$$ sense.

So, possibly if you do it that way and also use a version of Tesla Bot on the Moon, then the Moon does not become a drag on the other objectives such as Mars, but may become an asset.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-13 10:14:00)


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#1516 2023-12-13 10:39:24

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,844

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Building further on the just prior post, I would like to make more comments.

Obviously if it is possible to get Hydrogen for Rocket Fuel on the Moon, in an effective manner, then the 2nd stage of Stokes Space might be attractive, or some product from Blue Origin.

If Methane Fuel is to be brought in, then Starship itself or a lander based on Terran-R 2nd Stage might be good.

For any of these, Oxygen produced from Moon materials would be good.

But if you could use Merlins on the Moon, you could do a landing only, or maybe a lift to orbit using the Falcon 9 fuel.

That fuel could be Stored rather well on the Moon, relative to Hydrogen and Methane.

A Falcon 9 2nd stage could not return to Earth and do an Aerobrake or landing, but maybe it could return nested in a Starship, which did not land on the Moon.

I am not saying it is a wonderful idea, but it is a notion to think about.

I am sure it is more likely to use such a Merlin based propulsions for a limited number of burns, and then the discard the device.  So, then it might be good to make landers that can go to remote areas on the Moon with scientific payloads, and then they would just stay there until possibly salvaged someday.


We also have the possibility of some kind of nuclear booster in Earth orbit that would assist in some types of missions to make the propulsion on average more efficient.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-13 10:50:18)


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#1517 2023-12-13 11:07:26

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,282

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I wonder if a nuclear thermal engine could work as a fast reactor?  If it can, then the fuel, cladding and engine internals could be manufactured from metal oxides.  This would allow oxygen to be used as the engine propellant.  Any volatile fission gases escaping from nuclear fuel on the moon would be scrubbed from the surface by the solar wind.  This removes some 100kg/s of gas from the moon.  That is 3 million tonnes per year.  For a long time to come, natural scrubbing will remove any human gas emissions.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-12-13 11:10:20)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#1518 2023-12-13 11:40:17

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,844

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

May I ask about water with Hydrogen dissolved into the water?

The water might be of Lunar Oxygen and Earth Hydrogen, and the Hydrogen just extra Hydrogen.

But it might be possible to get the water from the Moon, and even the Hydrogen from some of the water.

By way of Henry's laws, higher pressurization of the Hydrogen into the water will allow more Hydrogen to be hosted in the water.  SpaceX tanks seem to tolerate 6 bar which might be getting there.

But I would wonder if a higher-pressure mixing tank could do the injection job just prior to use in the nuclear thermal propulsion unit.

I really would appreciate your thinking on this.  It seems to me that water with just a pinch of Hydrogen might do some performance.  I understand that rocket engines are run fuel rich, so that a bit more Hydrogen is unburned in the exhaust.

Done.

Interesting.  A person might digest Hydrogen in water, as an energy source: https://hydrogenwaterlabs.com/hydrogen- … he%20water.

Maybe this could be helpful to give people calories in space in starvation situations.

Also cold water will allow more gas molecules.  Also you would perhaps not want other types of gasses in the water, as they might displace Hydrogen.

It would be more of less sparkling water of Hydrogen, if you depressurized it.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-13 11:49:11)


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#1519 2023-12-13 13:32:41

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,844

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

OK, I realize that thinking of using Merlin Engines for the Moon probably has lots of impediments.  I could name quite a few concerns already myself.

And there are a vast number of possible modes to use when mixing machines in space.

I will suggest one.

Lets a Starship with heat shield, escorts a modified Falcon 9 2nd stage to a Moon orbit and then it is deployed with propellants, and it brings an Optimus down to the surface.  Then Optimus grabs some rocks, and deploys some test instruments such as mirrors for lasers to bounce off of, then the 2nd stage goes back to orbit with the rocks, and maybe Optimus.  Then the Starship takes the rocks and brings them back to LEO, or maybe even the surface.

Lots of concerns.

I don't think that Optimus left behind is a moral concern, but in time we need to know if it is.

As for the Merlin(s), I don't know how many times they can fire without maintenance.

And could used 2nd stages be used, that already carried payloads to orbit?  Would you want to.

Would the 2nd Stages be assembled in parallel or serial?

I also see the possibility to do similar with the Tarran-R, Stokes, and maybe Neutron 2nd Stages.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-13 13:39:01)


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#1520 2023-12-13 14:23:41

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,844

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

More experts on "Tesla Bot", Optimus: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nW2Jy6_d6wY
Quote:

Tesla Bot Expert Reacts to GEN 2 Optimus Demo

Brighter with Herbert
57.3K subscribers

So, then imagine 1 billion of these working on the Moon.  Of course, they would need some protection unless hardened for the Moons environment(s).

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-13 14:25:19)


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#1521 2023-12-14 09:01:41

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,844

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

On the question of nuclear thermal propulsion, I have found some better definition on the internet.  It is said that Nuclear Thermal is only better than chemical when using Hydrogen.  If you used water, and could use it, the results may be similar to using chemical propulsions, or so I read.  The article I read indicated that a burden of it would be to keep water from freezing.  But even chemical propellants need to be kept from boil off, so I will call it even on that point for now.

It is now my opinion that Nuclear-Thermal-Hydrogen would be best used, for now as a booster that would help boost a ship to its destination, such as Mars, and the booster device would operate in the Earth's Hill Sphere.  Should the booster device receive a refill of Hydrogen, then the sensible thing to do is boost something and expend the Hydrogen, so that you do not have to expend excessive effort holding the Hydrogen as a liquid in a tank.  The Hydrogen would have to be kept cold, and even then, may even leek out of the smallest pathways.

For now, I am supposing that the Hydrogen would likely come from the Earth, and just maybe from the Moon.  Either will be expensive, but if such a nuclear booster could be justified by performance, then the process may make sense.

But now, I want to again ask the question of the use of Hydrogen-Water, Sparkling-Hydrogen-Water, and Foam-Sparkling-Hydrogen-Water.  Also is it possible to de similar with other fluids such as Liquid CO2 and Hydrogen?

Hydrogen-Water, may be quack medicine.  I simply don't know and don't particularly care, as I want it as a propellant, not a medication.  https://www.webmd.com/diet/hydrogen-wat … h-benefits

In order to get more Hydrogen into the mix, higher pressure injection of Hydrogen into the water might work.
Sparkling Water: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonated_water
Image Quote: Drinking_glass_00118.gif

Foam-Sparkling-Hydrogen-Water:  This could involve a homogenization process using a mixer where tiny bubbles of Hydrogen would be injected into a water stream or a water batch.  Fears of Cavitation damage to a propulsion device exist for this.  I simply don't know what can be tolerated by such engines.  But for the bell nozzles of a thermal propulsion device, we already have transitions from a liquid to a gas, and it is tolerated apparently.
1) Continuous Stream:  Your machines would disperse extremely tiny bubbles of Hydrogen gas into the water stream on a continuous basis while the thrusting event was occurring.
2) Batch: While in microgravity, you would prepare a tank of water by injecting tiny bubbles into the tank of water, and I guess you would not want this to evolve big bubbles so the process would be of a short time period while thrusting was not occurring, and then you would send the batch to the Fission reactor in a quick pulse, and repeat.

If we were in the Martian environment, we might hope to use Liquid CO2, but there is a danger of chemical combustion at high temperatures, and probably might be somewhere in the heating process.  Maybe water is the best deal.  Water can come from Mars, and maybe the Moon.

Water being rather neutral chemically, and having greater mass density than Hydrogen, but Hydrogen having greater expansion potential from heat, we might hope to find a sweet spot between the two natures.

It may be that if you do not have to carry too much Hydrogen on your spacecraft, the burden of its storage will not be too high, and you could carry this process with you to a destination like Mars Orbits.  Of maybe the concept of booster in the Earth's Hill Sphere makes more sense.

Anyway I think I have progressed in my understanding from moron to a bit dangerous. smile

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-12-14 09:32:30)


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#1522 2023-12-14 10:45:57

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,844

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

If the notion of the previous post has merit, than other sources of heat might be applied to somewhat similar results.

DARPA seems to have something of interest: https://www.darpa.mil/news-events/2022-10-05b
So, laser heat may not be out of the question LEO>Higher Orbit, or the inverse perhaps.  That perhaps could be direct heat, or solar panel to electric power heat.

Another possibility could be some kind of a large thing with solar panels on one side and an air braking surface on the other side.  I would not expect such to land but to airbrake into a different orbit, or propel to a different orbit.

The obvious advantage of using water in propulsion is for storage, but also a Starship with a water cargo is simply safer than one with more propellants such as Methane or Hydrogen.

This might bring robots on the Moon back into the picture.  Oxygen from the Moon or even better water from the Moon, might be facilitated by robotics on the Moon.

I can see where Optimus on the Moon would be challenged by many things.  But to begin to try to make it possible, I suggest a mobile tent of say space blanket material that Optimus could generally be hosted under.  Mobile would indicate that it should be able to move across the surface somewhat in a linear fashion, and then also be able to spin.  Spin may matter as if you have variable albedo on the outer surface of the tent, then you might spin the tent during the day to adjust the interior thermal conditions.

To survive the Lunar night would require protection from the cold, but the Lunar Subsurface would emit some heat.

But of course, this needs more.

The extraction of water of course is one thing and the extraction of Oxygen to make water with is another.

Anyway, I have other things to do today, so I will leave it that far concieved.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-14 11:15:53)


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#1523 2023-12-14 14:57:12

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,844

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Well, lets see if I.S.E. will harass me here.

Cold allows more gasses to be dissolved in water.
The higher the pressure the more gasses can be stored in water.
The absence of other gasses may allow more Hydrogen to be stored in water.

Storing gasses such as Hydrogen in water for propulsion may have some merit.  Steam propulsion is possibly as good as chemical propulsion if perhaps you have a nuclear reactor.  (That is what I read today). 

But it is my expectation that having a pinch of Hydrogen in the mix will improve the propellant.

The reason I think so, is running a bit fuel rich with chemical propulsions also may add a bit more Hydrogen to the output and that may improve operation.  Don't take that as established as fact, it is rather what I think is true at this time.

----

But if we have more Hydrogen than could be dissolved into the water, then we might make a temporary slurry of water and Hydrogen gas.  While that could be complicated, it may not be too hard to accomplish.

Hydrogen is said to be the best propellant for a Nuclear Fission Thermal Rocket, but it may not always be the most available propellant.

So, we would be seeking to "Make-Do" to the bast result possible by mixing water and Hydrogen.

Water may come from the Moon or Earth and is safer to move and store, I expect than either Hydrogen or Oxygen.

Even if we get Hydrogen from Earth, we might also get Oxygen from the Moon, and with a pinch of Hydrogen added above that needed to make water maybe performance could be worth the trouble.

While the water molecules may add mass, the Hydrogen molecules should become very excited and vibrate more intensely with heat.  So, then the expansion of the Hydrogen may push on the water vapors emitted from the rocket nozzle.

But no, I don't think that there is a big advantage to store Hydrogen in water.  But you could spike the water a little bit with some dissolved Hydrogen.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-14 15:09:08)


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#1524 2023-12-14 17:27:59

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,282

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Unfortunately not.  The amount of hydrogen that will dissolve in a litre of water at 0°C and 1atm (1.9mg), is much smaller than that contained in 1 litre of hydrogen gas at 1atm (88mg).  So there is no advantage at all to dissolving it in water.  One option that has been investigated for gas storage, is clathrate hydrates.  These are cold, ice-like solids.  They tend to form in sediments at high pressure and low temperature and are metastable.  The gas in question is usually methane.  I don't know how far this concept ever got as a practical means of gas storage.  I know that isn't often used, so there must be problems with it.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-12-14 17:33:06)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#1525 2023-12-14 18:28:19

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,844

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Calliban, I am not satisfied with your response.

(th) misunderstood what I was proposing to do, and it appears that you are responding to that.

I am not trying to store Hydrogen in water, except as it might be convenient.  I do not want to extract Hydrogen from water except in the hot plume of a rocket thruster.

Also, I have considered an option that would involve a slurry of Hydrogen bubbles and water, to be pushed into a thermal rocket nozzle under high pressure.  I am not sure the results will be good per potential cavitation, but I think it is worth considering.

Please actually read my materials.

I am not creating a Hydrogen Storage method.  Probably Liquid Hydrogen would be carried with a rocket along with a bulk of water.  Then you would have a high-pressure mixer to blend the two and then pass that to a heat source like nuclear fission, then thrust.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-14 18:31:49)


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