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#1476 2023-11-19 11:57:57

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,849

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I guess what would be hoped for would be an object with a comet like composition of its surface materials, with Ceres and Callisto as possible examples.

Such a world if about 1/2 ices, could be rather large and yet not have an excessive gravitational field.

For a fusion economy and maybe even fission economy that would be rather good.  If it were big enough to have held onto its Nitrogen as gas or ice or even liquid that also would be good.

Such a world the size of Earth would not have a 1 g gravitation, it would be less, which would be interesting.

With fusion it might be possible to inflate a Nitrogen atmosphere for it.

Much more unlikely would be a Helium and Hydrogen atmosphere retained against the solar wind.  Helium would be more likely presuming it ever had some.  A bit like a mini-Neptune, maybe the Hydrogen would be swept away leaving the Helium?  Probably not but maybe in other solar systems.

Most likely any such planet found would be best without an atmosphere but with lots of Nitrogen ice.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-19 12:01:36)


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#1477 2023-11-20 15:45:03

Calliban
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From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,284

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Quite a lot to consider here.  All of these icy outer solar system worlds have ammonia mixed in with their water ice, about 1% from memory.  If you warm these bodies up to the point where microorganisms grow in the ice or melt water, they may use ammonia as an energy source and will certainly fix it into proteins.  Bacteria feeding on these proteins will release nitrogen gas.  So bacterial action will produce an N2 atmosphere.

Callisto is known to have significant reserves of dry ice.  But it is too cold for CO2 to exist with a very high vapour pressure.  Warming it could lead to the development of a Mars-like atmosphere.

It is debatable if this would be beneficial for humans living there.  An atmosphere provides some shielding from radiation and meteorites.  If it is at least as thick as that of Mars, it could also allow aerobraking.  But in other ways it introduces problems.  It is something you must punch through to reach orbit or escape velocity.  Any winds in the atmosphere introduce aerodynamic forces, convective heat losses and dust hazards.  The atmosphere will not be breathable and humans will probably be living beneath the surface for heat retention anyway.  So there is the question of what it really does for us.  But I suspect if a lot of people move to these places and start setting up nuclear reactors (fission or fusion) then eventually the waste heat is going to cause sublimation.  An atmosphere will begin to develop whether they want it or not.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-11-20 15:47:16)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#1478 2023-11-20 19:23:08

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,849

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

The conversation brings me to think about partly undifferentiated worlds, such as Ceres, and Callisto, (Apparently).  And then to think about Steppenwolf planets of that sort rather than of a terrestrial sort.

??????????

A Steppenwolf is supposed to be a rogue planet at least the gravity of Mars, and so then as well perhaps the size of the Earth or maybe larger.

It is supposed that in some cases they could attract enough Hydrogen and Helium to allow for liquid surface water.

I would not want the undifferentiated semi-Steppenwolf to be quite that warm, as I do not want the surface to differentiate.

Such a world, if 1/2 ice with lots of dirt on and near the surface with an atmosphere of some sort could be suitable.  It would have much more surface area than Earth if it had a 1 g gravitation.

So, this world could wander through the galaxy gathering heavy Hydrogen and H3 as a power source endlessly.

Such a world might also be possible in parts of the Oort Cloud as well, as the solar wind dies off at some point and allows interstellar gas and dust to be present to deposit on the planet.

On the other hand, a 1/3 g version might have a much larger surface area than Mars or Mercury.

The value of having dirty comet like ice in the crust of such a world is that the crust has a specific gravity which would perhaps be greater than that of fresh water.

So, the stable bodies of water might be put on top of that and they would not tend to calf icebergs up from the bottom, and so then also let the water drain down below the icebergs.

So, such a world might be more desirable if the humans become interstellar, than a near Earth.  And being in the outskirts of various not "G' type stars, they might be immune to some of the negative aspects of non-G stars.

Thanks, Calliban.


Done

This particular post presumes that some type of practical fusion power can be made real.  Not proven.

Done

But we might want to see if our aliens are on worlds like that.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-20 19:38:43)


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#1479 2023-11-21 03:50:21

Calliban
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From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,284

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Void, I have no doubt that a species freed from the gravitational bounds of its home planet will eventually expand to exploit every material and energy resource available to it.  Fusion power becomes technically easier as power reactors are scaled up.  A bigger reactor is always more expensive to build but produces proportionately more power.  For IC fusion, the lawson criterion is expressed as the product of pellet radius and density under ablation.  This makes sense, because surface area to volume ratio is proportional to 1/r and ablation is a surface phenomena.  So in some ways, it is technically easier to build a fusion reactor that can heat an entire planet rather than a single city.  It is not practically easier of course, because such a reactor would be a mile or more in diameter.  But the resources needed per unit power trend down as the reactor scales up.

In the past, we have discussed rogue planets and Oort cloud bodies as slow interstellar arcs.  This only really makes sense if the body is already heading in the direction you want it to go.  Trying to shift the velocity of a planet by even a small amount requires far more energy than a small interstellar ship moving at a significant percentage of C.  But we may eventually colonise rogues anyway.  As an interplanetary species, humanity would be capable of building fusion reactors capable of lighting worlds.  So a slow migration colonisation of the galaxy as we spread into the Oort cloud and encounter rogues, is a plausible scenario.  But such bodies may wander for millions of years before coming close to another star.  Can a technologically advanced society remain stable for that long?  Our distant descendants may be answering that question through practical efforts.

It is interesting to consider the case of a Pluto sized world with a breathable atmosphere that is heated at ground level.  The atmosphere will cool by radiation as gas molecules ascend.  So the top of the atmosphere coukd be extremely cold and far beneath local escape velocity even if ground levels temperatures are comfortably warm.  There is also the option of using thin films to physically seperate layers of the atmosphere with different temperatures.  Even a very thin roof would be effective, because the boundary layer between the roof and the atmospheric gas will serve as an insulator.  This would be challenging in practice, because the warm lower atmosphere will create updrafts that will exert significant bouyant forces on any roof structure.  But I wonder if there are ways of making it work?  Something like this:
20231121-102202.jpg

There would be no pressure difference across the membrane.  But the membrane would need to be strong enough to withstand updrafts.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-11-21 04:28:49)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#1480 2023-11-21 04:56:00

Void
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I am sure that there would be many fun SciFi stories that could be written around these ideas.

But now it occurs to me that what is of value would be an ideal gravity well, away from a star's solar wind.  And how dense the interstellar dust and gasses would be would matter as well.  There could be too little and too much.

But essentially you would not be going anywhere that the planet was not already going.  But you would have a continuing accumulation of cosmic mass into this gravity well that you could utilize.  And of course, if you wandered near another rogue that was suitable you would replicate.

Pseudo Rogues could be in the Oort Clouds of stars, or around brown dwarfs, or even white dwarfs as white dwarfs may not have a solar wind, I expect.  But of course, some of the white dwarfs could go Nova from time to time so that is not so desirable.

The origin of the universe then provided most of the deuterium and H3, Lithium, but the stars will cook up more heavy elemental dust.

I guess we get to think and dream, whoever might actually do this would need to figure out what you do with yourself in such a place of seeming endless time and resources.

Done




'

Last edited by Void (2023-11-21 04:58:55)


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#1481 2023-11-21 05:51:54

Calliban
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From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,284

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

The shell world idea is one that we have discussed at length.  In the past, the have touched on the idea of using water ice as a construction material.  Any civilisation living on an icy dwarf planet, either rogue or bound, would generate waste heat that will probably be dumped into surface ices.  This would gradually melt the water, giving rise to a global ice covered sea.  One way of terraforming would be to gradually inflate a polymer membrane under the ice.  As the membrane expands and lifts the ice, we gradually pump water from under the membrane to the icy above it.  As this happens we can gradually increase pressure underneath to balance the growing counter weight.  Eventually, we have a waterworld with perhaps 1% Earth gravity and an atmosphere covered by an icy shell several hundred metres thick.  Islands would float on the sea and would be tethered against each other.

This type of world would take a long time and a lot of energy to build.  Then again, we are talking about a civilisation that builds fusion reactors big enough to replace the heat of the sun.  If they can do that, there won't be very much that is beyond their capabilities.


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#1482 2023-11-21 06:38:18

Void
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Well dwarf planets with moons: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category: … rf_planets

For instance, set off Hydrogen bombs inside of Charon, and use the heat energy to power Pluto.

Just saying, we are not that far off from being able to do it.

Heavy waste would sink towards the core, Tritium leaking would be swept away by the solar wind for the most part.


Done


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#1483 2023-11-21 12:39:51

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,849

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Seeing a less violent method, it may be that Helion will succeed, and that would be very big for this conversation, I think.

I think we could begin with the ice caps of Mars.  Let's suppose they are approximately equivalent to the environment of Ceres, Callisto, and Titan.

I have previously mentioned that organic chemicals of these worlds could be used to make something like Cellulose or other woody products.
You have mentioned domes with ice.

Now I consider wet frozen woody or like paper or cardboard materials as the interior surface and a great deal of support.

My concerns of building with woody substitutes and putting a Nitrogen/Oxygen atmosphere in them had been fire.  But if it is of Pykrete, sort of, then any fire if it could get started would likely put itself out with the melting of ice.

So, now let's turn Mars on its head.  If we have nuclear power of several sorts, fission and fusion, and can make such domes then we can turn the ice caps into a home of sorts with all the organic chemicals desired.

The interior of the domes could be heated to tolerable freezing temperatures.  Then with enough ice over the dome, you could pressurize them with a N2/O2 gas mix.  You could have a lake inside with a frozen surface.  But you also could have wooden platforms on the ice and have inflatable domes on top of those and you could hear those to a very nice temperature.

I posted this elsewhere yesterday: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 87#p216087
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/compani … 9d908&ei=5
Image Quote: AA1keY4h.img?w=534&h=345&m=6

Of course, not immediately but over a long stretch of time, manufacture actual covered canals of significant size, which could have solar panels associated, but also windows.

Keep in mind that if the canals are ice covered, then the vapor pressure to hold down would not be that high.

Here is the calculator for that: https://endmemo.com/chem/vaporpressurewater.php

So, for an ice surface at -20 C then 1.2230 mbar needed.  Mars has that covered already.

If 1 C then 6.5138 mbar, which then does not require very much of a retaining structure as that is very close to Mars surfaces pressures most places.

If you build the canals at least 33 feet deep, then you approach survivable pressures for humans at the bottom of the canal.

(10.0584 Meters)

If you have a vehicle that can skim off the bottom with water jets or even wheels, then you may have a low friction transport method.

And of course, the canal water could likely support farm life, at least algae, with light or chemical foods for them.

Now if the canals will come from the South Cap down into Hellas, then you may also have hydroelectric power.

----------------

This then may be transportable to Callisto, where you might have mirrors to send more light into the canals.

If you go to Titan however then you no longer use the sun of the surface of that world but have a very good atmosphere as compensation.

If you move out to the Dwarf Planets, you might get away with a version of this as well.

If you go to dwarfs and other worlds beyond the suns Heliosphere, then you may be able to pull Deuterium and H3 out of the interstellar medium.

And then you may cross over into the gravity well of Proxima Centauri and other stars eventually.

https://phys.org/news/2023-06-paper-cap … cloud.html
Quote:

Paper suggests there could be captured planets in the Oort cloud
by Brian Koberlein, Universe Today

Query: "How many dwarf planets could exist?"
https://first-law-comic.com/how-many-dw … are-there/
Quote:

The number of dwarf planets in the Solar System is unknown1. The International Astronomical Union officially recognizes five dwarf planets: Pluto, Ceres, Eris, Makemake, and Haumea234. Some sources also include 2015 RR245 as a sixth dwarf planet5. Estimates have run as high as 200 in the Kuiper belt and over 10,000 in the region beyond1, but some factors may reduce the numbers1.

So, if Fission and Fusion become practical on these worlds, I don't see why we would have a need for high speed (As per speed of light), travel.

Tools that I like for this would be Orion Drive, and also Laser Highway, and maybe solar wind as well.

Looks pretty good to me at this point.  Helion could create a major path for the human race, or maybe someone else may.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-22 07:41:21)


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#1484 2023-11-21 18:19:55

Void
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

So, then wouldn't it be strange to have 50 inhabited worlds in our solar system.  With Fusion it may be possible.

Done


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#1485 2023-11-22 07:58:11

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,849

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

As for Mars, I do not know that much about mycelium structure, but wonder if that is a path to making some sort of Pykrete.

The fungus might grow with chemicals though, such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetate

As for making domes on the Martian Ice Caps, I would modify that and say around the ice cap perimeters and to lower latitudes.  The reason is that the tops of the ice caps have a lower air pressure due to altitude.

Also, I am of the notion that tunnels and vaults could be melted into the ice caps.  One possible method would be with lasers.  Only a small pressurization would allow underground rivers and streams to flow from under the ice caps.  So, the ice caps would be undermined, so you might not want to build structure on top of them or it might be undermined.  This then would provide the "Melt" portion of a planetary water cycle.  Canals would distribute water to lower latitudes and perhaps lower altitudes such as Hellas.

Methods to gasify the CO2 ice of Mars should not interfere with this.

So doubling air pressure on Mar overall might cause Hellas to have a pressure well above double of what it has now.

So, 11.5 * 2 = 23 mbar?  But due to the compression of the lower atmosphere layers and so the thickening, the pressure should be above that.

This will provide better radiation protection of course.

This again: https://endmemo.com/chem/vaporpressurewater.php

So, in case you don't like the concept of ice water, I took a look at 20 degC.  23.2977 mbar.

So, the top of the canal could hold 20 degC water without ice over it, so that might allow some various types of more than Algae, particularly submerged plants.

But ice can be very optical, provided it does not have too many gas bubbles or dirt in it: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 14#p205814
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/xn7Uv0brfNk

This again: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/compani … 9d908&ei=5
Image Quote: AA1keY4h.img?w=534&h=345&m=6

So, then a transparency over the canal to allow light in perhaps, but you might also use chemicals in the water to grow a crop.
Along the sides then very likely solar panels, a power line(s), and roads as well.

In the case of Hellas, all the paths would not be a desirable slope down so some tunneling would be needed.  A version of Prufrock might be desired.  https://www.boringcompany.com/prufrock

Because of the seasonality of the situation at the poles, it might be that you would allow the canals to run dry in the fall, to reduce freezing damage potential.  But then the Martian year being ~22 months?, the canals might be filled for 11 months at a time.

687 Earth days / 2 = 343.5 days of greater sunlight.  So perhaps 11.75 months of fluid activity in the canals so just say 12 months to keep it more simple.

It is very likely that the canal covers will not perfectly hold the moisture in.  leakage would be expected.  Leaked water vapor would simply return to the polar ice caps for the most part.

It might be possible to eventually have aqueducts of similar sort to move water into the Mariner Rift Valley as well.  From the south pole this water for the most part would flow down, but from the North cap water would have to be pushed upwards to a fair extent.

But the Rift Valley already has a spot with apparent water of some kind in Candor Chaos, so a settlement there could be possible long before the canals.  Again, like Hellas the pressure in the valley may be favorable if all the CO2 ice is vaporized.

Candor Chaos: https://www.newscientist.com/article/23 … e-equator/  Quote:

Large deposits of water found on Mars below the surface at the equator
Previous discoveries of water on Mars were limited to the poles or deep underground, but water deposits spotted near the surface at the equator could be easily accessed by future astronauts

By Alex Wilkins

16 December 2021

Making Pykrete domes near the equator may be possible also, but I expect that they would have to be protected from sublimation by a vapor barrier, shading, and insulation.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-22 08:40:16)


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#1486 2023-11-22 09:41:07

Calliban
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From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,284

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Canals are possible on Mars around the northern plains.  The majority of settlements are likely to be located around the borders of these plains.  Salt water would remain ice free if maintained at 0°C.  Vapour pressure would be about equal to Mars atmospheric.  So pressurisation is not needed.  But the canal must be covered to prevent evaporation.  The water would need to be heated to keep it at 0°C and the canal insulated to prevent heat loss.
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/sodi … _1187.html

Temperature cannot be allowed to to drop far beneath 0°C, because the viscosity of water more than triples between 0° and -20°C, even without freezing.  I would propose polypropylene pipe, covered with a metre of regolith to reduce heat loss.  The pipe does not need to be thick walled.  Corrugated pipe with a wall thickness of 1mm would be sufficient.  An epoxy based adhesive would be used to join sections of pipe.

The canal barges would be coupled into trains.  The barges would be guided by a rail running along the ceiling of the pipe.  This would prevent contact with the walls, which could damage the pipe.  Propulsion could be electric, with the guiderail providing DC power supply.  Or water can be pumped through the pipe carrying the barges by flow.

The viability of the concept depends upon the amount of heating needed.  Regolith fines have about the same thermal conductivity as rockwool at Martian pressures.  That is 0.04W/m.K.  Taking Martian background temperature to be -60°C and pipe diameter to be 1m, the rate of heat loss can be calculated:

Q = pi x D x k x dT/dx = pi x 1 x 0.04 x 60/1 = 7.54W/m.

A 1000km pipelength would need 7.54MW of heat.  The energy consumption per ton-mile would therefore depend upon how much freight the pipeline carried.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-11-22 10:13:46)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#1487 2023-11-22 10:37:20

Void
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Posts: 6,849

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I like your concept.  The several options might work together.

However, I will point out that when the ice surface would be at -20 C, the water at the bottom can be 39 F. (3.88888889 or 0 C).  So viscosity would not be a problem.  Of course, flowing water might erode holes in the ice so there are many variables.

The action of water flowing will tend to heat the water, so that is interesting.  So, then from the South Cap if flowing down, then it can be to some amount self-heating.  The turbulence of flow will cause an eventual molecular excitation.

The transparent toped canals I suggested are posing some question.  When do you have enough algae or other crop?

Your proposal may offer some improvement of efficiency.

Efficiency means a lot, effort required needs a payoff.

So, yes, rather than a stromatolite Mars, we might want a vascular Mars, with energy and fluids flowing.

And I have no problem with your proposals.  It is all very good.

But if needed, then energy sources along the way could add heat to a flow vessel to keep it from freezing shut.

I have no problem with involving some sort of nuclear with the process.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-22 10:44:09)


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#1488 2023-11-23 12:47:27

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,849

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I suppose this could be put somewhere else and you are welcome to.

Zubrin:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33aPPLPX2RY
Quote:

Can We Live on Mars? New SETI and Nuclear Energy with Dr. Robert Zubrin

Event Horizon
286K subscribers

I am not anti-nuclear really.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-23 12:49:34)


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#1489 2023-11-24 03:52:36

Calliban
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From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,284

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Void wrote:

I suppose this could be put somewhere else and you are welcome to.

Zubrin:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33aPPLPX2RY
Quote:

Can We Live on Mars? New SETI and Nuclear Energy with Dr. Robert Zubrin

Event Horizon
286K subscribers

I am not anti-nuclear really.

Done

He also discusses the potential for 'artificial' food production.  By artificial, I don't think we neccesarily mean non-living, but organisms that side step ordinary photosynthesis.  Zubrin makes the point that a cornfield is 0.2% efficient at converting sunlight energy into food energy.  With acetate based food produced using PV, we can boost that to 4%.  Using a fast breeder nuclear reactor which is 50% efficient, the heat to fixed calorie efficiency is 10%.  Maybe we can do even better in the future.  On Mars, this will be a high priority.  We cannot grow enough food for a city of people by growing ordinary plants in a pressurised heated greenhouse.  The cost would be overwhelming.

Robert Dyke has developed the idea of improving photosynthesis by using extracted chloroplasts to covert CO2 and H2O into glucose.  These are roughly 4% efficient and can be suspended in water and pumped through thin transparent plastic panels.  This multiplies the net energy return from acetate food production.  We grow algae using acetate, extract the chloroplasts and then use the chloroplasts to generate many times their own weight in glucose.  In this way we leverage the energy needed to produce the acetate.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-11-24 04:03:24)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#1490 2023-11-24 07:47:18

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,849

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I am not kissing up, but that video made me realize that Dr. Zubrins analysis of reality is better than mine and I can adopt some of what he offers.

Your post also looks interesting.  In Candor Chaos, may be a good place to have a nursery for a first settlement.  Digging Canals as I have proposed are things for a well developed society, but in a nursery, could we have transparent bubbles with pools of water in their bottoms?  With enough thermal inertia that your panels will not freeze up at night?

In the event of a dust storm, then the water could be withdrawn to a containment of some kind and the panels be dried out to avoid frost damage.

One method of withdrawal would be to pull the fluids out with presumed Algae, Cyanobacteria, Chloroplasts, and perhaps sugars.

The other would be to force pull steam out of these bubbles and force condense it into distilled water.  This would also serve to keep the temperatures inside moderated as to not get to hot at midday.

This all seems to be in a trend of agriculture becoming more and more industrial.  That may help us avoid the problem of Hierarchy having a compulsion to breed dumbed down surfs.  That may sound ominous from me, but although I do not consider all parts of "America" to be innocent at all I note that both the British and Stalinist societies longed for a "Race" of dummies to serve as meat robots.

Surprisingly the Soviets at some point were considering trying to breed humans with Chimps to get such a creature.  Of course, it did not work, thank God.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanzee

But from my point of view, we need to limit the powers of the verbal hive mind and the thugs they employ to try to keep the more intelligent in servitude to those who only have verbal skills and low morals, (From my point of view).

We are always in a tension between the push to breed the human race into ape cannibals, or to improve to the point where a more graceful version of human can be allowed to grow.

The agricultural empires were a necessary step in progression, but they always seem to have a trap door that the human race can fall into, to decay into a lower "Self".

Little by little technology seems to offer chances, (Only chances), to escape that.

So, I say "Bring it on", as nothing else has seemed to get us out of that unfortunate loop.

Done

Because of contact with old cultures some western cultures descend into these behavior problems such as wanting a slave/servant population of dummies to manipulate.  Russia itself, I think is actually more advanced, but its adventures connect it to such old agricultural cultures, and I think that that pollutes them.  Similar for the British Empire.

The abolition of slavery where possible came from various more "Western" population, not from "Civilizations", that had previously hosted agricultural slave empires.

I am disappointed in our leadership, for not cultivating a more useful relationship to the Russian people.  Not they are not innocents any more than we are, but we could have used their help at this point.  Better thinking is needed I feel.

But some of the population actually adores trying to subordinate the American populations.  They are not American, in my view.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-24 08:36:27)


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#1491 2023-11-24 16:25:13

Calliban
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From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,284

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I think the good thing about liquid panels is that we can drain them into an insulated tank when insolation is too low or non-existant.  We don't have to keep heating chloroplast panels against the freezing conditions of Martian night.  In principle, this method of agriculture might not need supplementary heating.  We keep the liquid in the tank until radiation temperature at the panels is high enough to keep it liquid.  That cannot be done (at least not easily) with soil based plants.

Another thing Zubrin discusses is artificial stars.  Advanced civilisations could build these by dropping a quantum singularity into a gas planet.  Radiation pressure from the accretion disc woukd prevent the planet from rapidly collapsing.  It would also heat the inner core to temperatures high enough for nuclear fusion.  If we ever find rogue gas planets with large moons, this is a potential terraforming technique.  It would also allow very compact Dyson Spheres.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-11-24 16:30:54)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#1492 2023-11-25 08:02:39

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,849

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Let us say that your panel and reservoir method is a cousin tech to what I suggest.  They can both be valid.  You wish to try to host the work of Robert, which I admit is interesting and I hope can be made practical.

I still want to consider the inflatable bubble method, and the possible use of Algae or Cyanobacteria.

What I see as possible is heliostats that can amplify the amount of light impinging the bubble.

I wish to implement a sort of surface evaporation inside the bubble by removing vapors with a pump.  Keeping in mind that the water within would be heated by the light reflected onto the bubble, the pressure inside could be some amount greater than that of the outside Martian pressure.

In the act of sucking the water vapor out of the bubble, and compressing it into liquid, a heat pump sort of heat capture would occur.
A secondary heat pump of an industrial type would then pull that heat out, and bring the heat level up to some useful value.  There are currently some thoughts that some heat pumps will be able to produce a lower level of industrially usable heat.  This could be where solar panels may be useful on Mars, as at the same time that the bubble captures heat, the panels will produce electricity.

The microbes in the bubble will only harvest selected portions of the light spectrum to produce a product but this will capture the others as heat.

And in a like manner as you have promoted, at night or during dust storms, the water inside the bubble might be withdrawn to a tank to greatly reduce energy which needs to be passed into the bubble to make it useful.  It would get very cold at night or during a dust storm.

I suppose that this would be an analog of a Diode in an Electrical Rectifier Circuit.

And the industrial heat could be used to do something industrially, and the waste heat leaking from that process might heat dwelling space, if the industrial process is not toxic.

It is difficult to get good information on new heat pump tech, as you get swamped by advertisements.  I wish that there was a way to distinguish commercial internet from scientific/technological internet.

https://ammonia21.com/norwegian-researc … heat-pump/
But this one will apparently go to 180 degC.
Quote:

The new heat pump is “perfect” for the (roughly) 20% of Europe’s industries that require temperatures between 100°C (212°F) and 180°C, according to Sintef. Suitable industries would include “foodstuffs, fisheries and aquaculture, paper, oil and gas and metallurgy sectors,” Sintef said on its website.

Of course I said solar panels might be a good option, but as always nuclear may be good as well for part of a power grid to support actions on Mars.  It of course could produce a higher heat, but heat pumps can be efficient,   I think on Mars is will usually be desirable to get whatever heat you can get.  Turning ones nose up to a potential gift might not be wise.

Marking a black hole is an interesting idea, but for someone like me it is "Clark-Tech".  If the wizards can do it then great! (I think sad )

Done

I think it is likely that future heat pumps may provide a higher temperature than 180 degC.

On the issue of settling on and around rogue worlds, here is yet another notion of how to achieve practical fusion, we might hope. smile
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets … fe26&ei=12
Quote:

'Wright brothers': US startup aims nuclear fusion using plasma railguns
Story by Ameya Paleja  •
3d

If we believe that their are gas giants, terrestrialoids, and undifferentiateds of large size, then I wonder if there is a much greater population of rogue dwarf planets, and also Centaurs.

And so I am very interested in any type of fusion that works.  It does not have to be competitive on Earth, but if it is a path to energy on a rogue dwarf, then that object may be of great value.  In itself it may have the fuels, but the interstellar medium may also provide those fuels.

And I am very interested in a "Packed" Orion Starship to reach those objects.  By packed, I indicate that instead of setting off a nuclear explosion you include volatiles and dust that are not normally considered propellants.  Such ships might get humans to Comets, Centaurs, Dwarf Planets, and eventually to rogue worlds.

If you consider that the moons of Mars could provide the dust and Oxygen, then a bit of Hydrogen from those moons or from Mars if necessary would provide the propellants, and a nuclear blast, the energy.  And then if you get to an icy Asteroid then again even easier, I think.

I think a "Packed" Orion would be like putting bullets in a gun instead of just doing a gunpowder explosion in a gun without a bullet.  I would think you could get more recoil.

And then if the gases produced were ionize, it might be possible to use magnetic bombs to push/squirt/deflect that.

Who needs to go to the stars, if you have fusion and also packet Orion methods?  (Presuming it would work).  The acquisition of Centaurs, Dwarfs, Comets, and rogues will probably give hundreds of worlds.  Proxima Centaurs has 3, which may or may not be usable.


????

Done

Obviously, some geopolitical method will be needed to make this allowable.

Done

Centaur: https://www.britannica.com/science/Centaur-object
Quote:

Centaur object, any of a population of small bodies, similar to asteroids in size but to comets in composition, that revolve around the Sun in the outer solar system, mainly between the orbits of Jupiter and Neptune.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-25 09:14:59)


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#1493 2023-11-25 09:31:40

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,849

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Calliban, the just previous post responds to your prior post.

But Orion Drive:

A magnetically coupled Orion Propulsion method.

Something like magnetically sailing on the solar wind.   If you considered the solar wind to be an explosion, then quite a lot like it.

The ionizing bomb becomes the wind, and the magnetic device the sail.

I think that there are magnetic bombs, or can be.

I guess, an EMP: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_e … etic_pulse
So, maybe a magnetic field on the ship that could survive that, and then an ionizing bomb that would be packed with ices and dust.  Then perhaps an EMP could couple the two.

Maybe.

For humans, I would imagine being in air bubbles inside of water bubbles nested quite a lot to make it possible to survive???

Otherwise just to push machines to a world that you want to set up on.  The humans might arrive by another method.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-11-25 09:38:03)


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#1494 2023-11-25 22:27:41

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,849

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

In post #1492: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 09#p216309

I neglected to say that the process of forced extraction of warm steam from a solar bubble would create a lot of distilled water in addition to the captured heat, and the Oxygen from photosynthesis and the presumed biomass.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-25 22:28:32)


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#1495 2023-11-28 11:45:07

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,849

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I am thinking about Pykrete-Similar Domes again which would be radiators and also be able to hold pressure.

They would be made as glued by water ice, and kept relatively cold, perhaps having an igloo shape, but not necessarily.

Radiator tubing would be embedded in the materials of the walls of them.  They might have cooling fins of some kind on their exterior to help reject heat.

As they would be radiators, a source of heat would be wanted.  This could be nuclear, geothermal, or solar.

The Pykrete notion would require organic materials perhaps of Fungi, but it would not be wrong to add other fibrous materials.

There is good reason to look for prior works from other people so, Query: "Ice shelters on Mars"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Ice+shelt … A0&PC=U531

In my thinking I am not intending to have transparency, which allows for more types of building materials.  But it is not forbidden to attach transparent buildings of any type that might be practical.

AHlnivD.png

The pond water would be the first step of cooling and then the dome would be the second step.  So, with reflective radiator fins on the exterior would be designed to not pick up heat from the sunlight, if possible, but it then need robots to dust the fins.

A traveling arch would rotate above the dome so that such robotics could continually clean it.

Another such arch inside the dome might allow access to the dome's inner surfaces.

The radiator fins might be of sintered regolith materials.

So, there would be an enormous amount of building materials on Mars.

This scheme might work on other cold worlds, such as Titan, or Callisto.

The fungi might be produced with Acetate feeding, plastic and basalt fiber might be added as well.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-28 20:41:35)


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#1496 2023-11-28 20:44:06

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,849

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

This from the prior post: AHlnivD.png

The dry radiator fins I hope could be sintered or glued from regolith, and would resemble scales on a lizard, that could be glued to the Pykrete dome, presumably with water.  So, a vapor barrier on the inside of those scales then.

And then fin like of a Stegosaurus or other shapes could project from the glued scales.

Under the scales could be a "Vascular system", of tubing though which a fluid could flow.

The thickness of the Pykrete could be of a value desired.  If it is to hold a pressure though it needs to have significant mass, and it would not hurt to give it some tensile strength with fibers of Fungi, wood, plastic, and Basalt if possible.

Obviously, this could be good radiation shielding as well.

Pressurized air at a nominal temperature of -20 degrees C would be tolerable to do work in with proper clothing.

But warmer chambers would be desired inside.

I think that the point is that it might be possible to build a very large amount of this sort of structure, where water could be made available for the making of ice for the Pykrete.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-28 20:49:52)


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#1497 2023-11-29 09:57:46

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,849

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Now since I have been working on "Habitable Radiators", we should want an energy source, I found this which looks helpful.

https://www.astro.umd.edu/~hamilton/HON … thew_0.pdf
Quote:

Geothermal Energy
• Requires drilling into Martian crust to find hot water reservoir.
• Mars’ Cerebus plains, its Northwestern Tharsis region and the
canyons of Valles Marineris are all possibilities as geothermal
hotspots.
• “With 500 kilowatts of nuclear power, they could start drilling
and creating a 10 megawatt geothermal power supply. That
would be enough for a town of 10,000 people on Earth.” -Zubrin
• Mars Express Orbiter discovered water under southern polar ice
caps (according to radar signal)

So, geothermal in spots may be possible for heat to dump into the "Habitable Radiators".

Dr. Zubrin is quoted.  I notice also all the locations I have a large interest in are mentioned.

For "Habitable Radiators" significant amounts of water are needed.  Candor Chaos may satisfy that, the polar regions should satisfy that, including Korolev Crater, and for Cerebus plains, I don't know about water, maybe an aquifer?

This old article suggests yes perhap maybe ice: https://spaceflightnow.com/news/n0202/20marsfloods/

Explosive volcanism suggest some type of ground water: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 3521001779

----
Nuclear heating could be of various types.  Fission, Neutronic Fusion and Aneutronic Fusion.  In all cases a radiator would be of some use.

----

As for Solar:  Quote:

• According to a NASA
sponsored MIT think tank,
solar energy can be utilized
on Mars.
• 0-40 degrees North of
Martian equator.
• A 100 by 100 meter array
could produce 100 kilowatts
of energy

I actually think that solar could be of great value at the poles.  If you use solar only 1/2 of a Martian year, then you only have to dust the panels during that time period.  Also, the Panels can be vertical and pivot on bearings to follow the sun.  Much of polar settlements could be robotic and so could be mothballed seasonally..

For similar reasons I am interested in farming at the polar areas.  Pivoting mirrors could direct sunlight into growth chambers possibly greenhouses or pond/lakes covered in ice.  This again would be seasonal.

Probably for the poles you would want some backup nuclear power if you could not find geothermal power.

Done

I belatedly realize that wind can play a useful role in this "Habitable Radiator" on Mars as it will help with cooling on the projecting fins.

The wind power that just might be possible someday could be some kind of nanostructure that might vibrate in the wind, with piezoelectric generators, but that is rather "Clark Teck".

OK, someone has been thinking about it: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 5121000180

But the Martian environment will be rather harsh in many ways, so what might work on Earth may not work on Mars.  Still maybe.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-29 10:37:18)


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#1498 2023-11-29 12:16:48

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,849

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Now and then I stumble on something that fills a hole previously not satisfied for information.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photic_zone
Image Quote: 240px-NOAA_Deep_Light_diagram3.jpg
Quote:

Comparison of the depths which different colors of light penetrate open ocean waters and the murkier coastal waters. Water absorbs the warmer long wavelengths colours, like reds and oranges, and scatter the cooler short wavelength colours.[11]

I want this in my reference library: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 13#p190313

I have gone on about underwater farming quite often, so this sort of helps me to get closer to reality.

As for the "Habitable Radiator" concept such farming might exist parallel to it.

I think that I can nest this post from another topic here, as it relates: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 94#p216394

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,438
Email
I will let other members such as Calliban represent their version/ideas as they may wish.

I would use the phrase "Active Diode System", in this case.

The system would have an active mode of operation when the sun was shining sufficiently and a more dormant action for the "Dark Phase".

This is originally conceived for Mars but might apply to other worlds, with some modifications.

The active solar mode would see fluids and organisms moved from a storage, to a transparent bubble in the sunshine.

While Solar microbes might be the organisms shifted, a plant like Duckweed might be possible as well.

And when the sun was not providing sufficient energy, then the reverse would occur, the fluids and organisms would go to storage.

The wealth resources that might be created could be:
1) Extracted Heat.
2) Oxygen Production
3) Distilled Water
4) Cleaned Water
5) Biomass/Food.

In the case of duckweed, at least the difference between Distilled Water and Cleaned Water, is one goes through a evaporate and condense process, and Cleaned water might be made usable by the organisms growing in the liquid water.

It is not required but I expect that solar energy to power this system will include:
1) Transparent Bubble.
2) Heliostats to present photons to #1.
3) Photovoltaic panels to provide intermittent electrical power to work in parallel with the whole process.

In the Dark Phase, the exterior devices #1, #2, #3 would not be powered or heated, to conserve energy loads.

During the Sun Phase, water vapor could be forcibly removed from the bubble and sent to a condenser by compression tank.
In order for the bubble to remain inflated, sufficient water and heat would be pushed into the dome.  Heliostats would provide the needed heat.

The forcibly condensed distilled water would be of some warmth, and that could be extracted using a heat pump to create industrial grade heat.

Duckweed would he harder to handle than photo microbes, and would be involving more robotics, I would think.  Not as much duckweed would be sent out to the Sun Phase of the bubble as it would be expected to grow.  So, when the Duckweed was pulled back to storage, some of it would be harvested.

Thats a lot for now.

If you had water, at the location, lava tubes might be a good place for the storage sections.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-26 12:42:24)


Some additional linking innovations might be wanted but it looks fairly good to me.  Conserving heat in a greenhouse when the sun does not shine.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-11-29 12:29:23)


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#1499 2023-11-29 15:25:59

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,849

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

!


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#1500 2023-12-03 09:41:32

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,849

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I would want it to be true that my thinking about things could improve, though learning and also newer looks at old problems.  And I feel I am approaching that. 

I will be happy to be corrected when and if I make mistakes, thanks in advance.

When much younger I was very interested in how ponds work in the northern hemisphere, where winters are cold enough for the ponds to stratify and also get an ice layer on them.  So, I will build on that as sort of a solar collection device with support from other energy devices.

Conversations with Calliban revealed a "Panel" type device which would support photosynthesis, and where to avoid damage from freezing events the system could be drained.

For me this develops into a "Pond-Diode".  For this we may withdraw the water, but also may wish to enhance photosynthesis, and I also want to play thermal diode with these.  For that purpose I am  thinking about involving heat pumps, and an energy source.  Solar energy may be the energy source but is not firmly mandated.

On Earth a pond of 6 feet will allow the water at the bottom of an ice-covered pond to be a few degrees about that of the water under the ice.  I know most people here don't like feet as a unit, but as it happens on Mars 1 foot equals approximately 10 mbar of water column pressure.  Ice would be about 90% of that.

As it happens the temperature of the water at the bottom of such a pond could be 39 degF.  (3.88888889 degC).

But if we put a solar thermal panel on the bottom of the pond, depending on it's nature and the maintenance of it, we may get considerably higher temperatures.  I would think to use those panels to be the heat source of a heat pump system.

Any aquatic life growing and sediments would tend to interfere, so a cleaning robot is needed.

But in this system cold water photo organisms might be possible as well as extracting heat.

I would anticipate a system of heliostats to push more photons into these ponds.

I anticipate a inflatable film of perhaps PVC which could be recycled to something else and be replaced periodically.

SeaDragon at one time indicated that plastic films like this would last much longer if Oxygen were not involve in proximity to the materials.

Oxygen produced by photosynthesis would be under the ice most of the time and might be extracted by a degassing process.

Even at low pressure it should be possible to get some CO2 to dissolve into the pond waters to feed the photo organisms.  This could be Martian Air pushed into the water, and over time Nitrogen and Argon would build up with Oxygen and be extracted using a degassing method.

Having a ice layer on top of the pond is preferred, to keep Oxygen in the water and away from the plastic tenting.  This also would keep the Relative Humidity % lower so less water losses then.

As for fertilizers, I think that would come from organic waste.  That would provide the needed Nitrogen.

This is my bag of tricks again: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 13#p190313

Clear ice: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 14#p205814

This ice is cloudy.  We could probably melt it temporarily and the get a clear ice window again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHrbKyqPyYA

If we heat the ice to melting out pressure is maybe 6 mbar: https://endmemo.com/chem/vaporpressurewater.php

Our plastic film should have no trouble holding that pressure against the ~5.5 mbar Martian pressure.

When the ice refreezes the vapor pressure will be well below 6 mbar.

So, I think we can make ponds provide food, Oxygen, Heat, and to a degree water treatments.

Another water treatment would be with the Degassing process.  You could force water evaporation and then with compression condense distilled water.

I have recently worked on this notion: AHlnivD.png

Various components of this could store Oxygen, cleaned water, distilled water, food, and Heat.

The others are on the ball with this topic also.  I will refrain from posting to that topic so that it can have it's own drift.
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=8142
Quote:

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 7,208
Email
An interesting video examining some construction and building concepts for Mars:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9SdeW5UqTY

Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

I think we would like you back Louis.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-03 23:13:48)


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