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Void

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Registered: 2011-12-29

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Building on the last post, the bulk which might be wanted for the sintered tubing, is at first intimidating, but then when you realize that the mass is also part of a flywheel to store launch energy, adding bulk to a spin disk, spin gravity station starts to make sense.  It is after all an energy storage device, and the use of electric propulsion to give the spin is the most efficient. that I am aware of other than solar wind and photon propulsions, (Which also might be used).

We also can include the possibility that for missions of this sort of nuclear rocket might be used Earth>Mars/Phobos/Deimos>Earth, and in the case of Mars we would likely be OK to use the nuclear rocket into the Martian atmosphere to aerobrake into orbit.

If you did not want to aerobrake you might use a Ballistic Capture method, if you could afford radiation shielding for a prolonged flight. 

So, these possible cheats added to the capabilities we hope for with Starship, I would wonder if the Stokes vehicle might make a nice lander from Mars orbit to the surface and back.  Not to rule out Starship landings though.

But a Starship landing might carry enough propellants to allow the Stokes vehicle to ascend back to orbit.  It might actually generate the Oxygen while sitting idle on the surface.

The architecture I think I see for all this would serve well for access to asteroids as well, sometime later.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-21 20:35:43)

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Void

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

For the flywheel disk we might want to borrow from the Finns for their mirror system: https://www.sciencealert.com/could-huma … anet-ceres

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Void

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Registered: 2011-12-29

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

For the flywheel disk we might want to borrow from the Finns for their mirror system: https://www.sciencealert.com/could-huma … anet-ceres  Image Quote:

In this case the two mirrors upper and lower, would be on posts from the hub of the spin device like tilted umbrella's, and would have to be kept from also spinning, so that the sunlight would hit each side of the disk.

This then would allow the spin plane to be similar to that of Mars or the Sun.  Not totally easy but possible.  This might be an opportunity as well to make a greenhouse to grow food, that would be a flywheel to launch payloads.

But a spin disk might not always be involved in flinging payloads, so a single sun facing side might be fine.

Also, for Phobos and Deimos, I would like to think that these disks could land on a pedestal mounted into the mass of the moon on occasion.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-21 21:01:16)

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Void

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Registered: 2011-12-29

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

So, where previously I was speaking of tubes of sections of sintered pipe, for habitats to be assembled, here I am thinking about sintering a giant jar and adding that as a part to an assembly.

The ceramic Jar could be wrapped with a tensile material to give it the needed strength to be able to hold pressure.  As an added measure, the interior of the Jar shell could have a metal or plastic liner.

Only the end tips of the brown jar would have the highest gravity for humans to have their fitness places in.

Tesla carbon wraps the spinning parts of some of their motors, so that can give a clue, but metal based tensile strength could be important as well.

https://cleantechnica.com/2021/06/16/mo … ped-motor/
Quote:

When Tesla designed the new carbon-wrapped motors, it created a land rocket — the quickest production car on the planet. It can reach a speed of 60 miles per hour in just 1.99 seconds, and...

Author: Johnna Crider

So, such a Jar habitat would require very thick walls to block all radiation, but magnetics and swimming pools water tanks could help.

Magnetics: https://arc.aiaa.org/doi/10.2514/1.A34710

So, that may assist, supposing that it is in working order.  If it fails, then storm shelters might be wanted.  Swimming pools and water tanks which may have multiple uses could be helpful with that.

Having to be in a swimming pool for extended periods could be helpful for many parts of the body, but a diving bell would be even better as your head is under water.  And in reality, it could be that some of the rooms of your house would be encircled by water.  The water could be for swimming or might support plant growth, or maybe both.

So, when digging down into a rubble pile, I expect that every portion of the rubble can be put to a good use.  I would prefer to do methods which would not promote a Kesler Syndrome though, so dirt bags are probably not a preferred method of building.  Ideally structures in space would include "Anti-Shedding" methods in their construction.

And keep in mind that these are to be flywheels to store energy and to distribute that energy to payloads, so exchanges of materials can be facilitated. 

These methods pioneered in Mars orbits would likely translate well to the Asteroid belt, I feel.

And keep in mind that nuclear energy might work well with these, and be even more convenient than solar in some ways.

And these things might not have a solar panel disk, but maybe a rectenna disk so that they could receive energy from a non-spinning solar power station.

Mars has lots of Argon, and the Neuman Drive does look like a winner for making the flywheels spin.

This might work well for some Near-Earth Asteroids as well.

And we may have the possibility of snatching a spacecraft into the disk with a tether, but that will need very good skills.

It needs to be repeated that for "Up Mass" Mars is much better than the Earth, and yet it does support aerobraking to a fair degree.  When the planet's atmosphere is fully expanded by initial terraforming the aerobraking function will be much better.

So, I find it to be silly to think that someone would prefer to hide underground on Mars after traveling all the way from Earth.  I would think that Mars would be a good laboratory to develop the ability to commute between the surface & subsurface, and also the orbits and the moons in the orbits of Mars.

This is a much more exciting Mars, in my opinion.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-22 09:29:10)

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Void

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

On the question of "Up-Mass" from Mars itself, I think it makes sense to look at Starship as SST-Suborbital.

On Mars that could be orbital, obviously as it is intended that Starship is to do SSTO from Mars to Earth.

As for aerobraking to the surface of Mars, from the little I know the stress might be a 4.0 relative to an 8.0 for entering the Earth's atmosphere.  But of course, terminal velocity is not as favorable.

But a Starship which could fly to Earth from Mars could certainly lift a lot of materials from the surface of Mars.  My guess is that the bulk of that might be hydrocarbons or special materials, but that depends on what can be had from orbital objects such as Phobos, Deimos, and even asteroids.

I like to throw Stoke Space in, as they are a different animal.  Again, this is not some stupid Darwinians contest the NAZI might get hot and bothered about.  The two ships will likely have particular uses, we are not killing one and adoring the other.

I am interested in the active cooling method.  Hydrogen is the item in use, but for Mars it might be possible that water or CO2 or Nitrogen might be used.  It is even possible that those coolants could come from the substances of Phobos or Deimos.

Or Carbon or Hydrogen from Mars lifted up could be combined with Oxygen from Phobos or Deimos to make coolant.

Doen

 

Last edited by Void (2023-10-22 11:21:04)

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Void

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

This is something of interest to me both for the Moon and for Phobos and Deimos, and of course asteroids: https://project-helios.space/lunar-oxygen/

Here is another one: https://www.bloomberg.com/press-release … technology.

The Europeans have a process, and so does Blue Origins for solar panels with Oxygen as a waste product.

Supposing you had a platform to work from, I presume this would work with for Phobos and Deimos, and I have to think this would have value.

I have a desire to find a way to combine habitat with solar power plants, and also with a flywheel launch ability from Earth/Moon orbits, and I am wanting to find that it would be worthwhile to get solid materials from the Moon for this purpose by our rocket methods.

Actually, the more functions that a molecule of matter would participate in the more complex the machine/process will be.

A Oxygen tank filled or empty though could function as part of a flywheel, and indeed perhaps be some sort of help in radiation shielding.  That is just a possible thing.  Not necessarily the thing to desire or even do, but I think it makes the point.

So, then is it worthwhile to get mass from the Moon to make machines?  An Oxygen tank, can store flywheel energy and also be a depot for Oxygen.  And both functions can be done over and over again, unlike Oxygen itself which has a onetime use if for propellant.  So, I am still thinking about it.

I think the answer is going to be yes, it may be worth lifting materials from the Moon to make machines in orbit even with chemical and then electric rocket propulsions.

Previously I have considered space habitats that also were power plants, and also might be spin launch flywheel devices, so you can see where I am going.

I want to sleep on this, maybe a few times and see where it might go.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-22 18:33:09)

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Void

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Don't cry, but I am getting more interested in tear drop shapes than disks.
Royalty Free?  They said that: https://www.istockphoto.com/illustratio … drop-shape
https://www.istockphoto.com/vector/blue … -329129641  Image Quote:

So we could have a flattened teardrop with 'X' and 'Y' ad much more dominant than 'Z', or we may have more rounded teardrop with still a tail.  I kike to think I understand  object in space thinking, but of course this shape is hard to communicate accurately to other people. 

So, imagine a full teardrop shape, and then imagine as an option that you flattened that in a press.  Either option may have merit so I don't rule either of them out.

OK, here is one notion of it:

Yes, nuclear might work well, but that is a source if concern, geopolitically.  And correctly so.

So, the triangle which is the tail of this would be the maximum g force, which would be important both for launching payloads and for giving humans synthetic gravity conditioning.  Of course, there would be an enormous amount of variation on intentions for that.

I am thinking of storing spin energy, but also the decks might support catapults like an aircraft carrier of a method of some kind.  There would be quite a few tricks possible for that.

The question is, can human adults be kept reasonably healthy would variable synthetic gravity.  I tend to think it can be done.  Perhaps children also, but that is to be discovered later.

I believe that intermittent centrifuges have been done with bedrest tests and show promise for health in variable gravity simulations.

My preferred method of propulsion for this device would be the Neumann Drive, but other methods can be also considered and perhaps included.

Such propulsion systems could alter the spin and also the orbital path, and elevation of the device around a world, or the sun.

In addition to a outward projecting catapult, it would also be possible to draw weights into the center of spin while lunching the payloads.  This would increase spin.  Like a spinning dancer drawing their arms inward.

A question can be, "Would dumb mass from the Moon be worthwhile for this system?".

I am inclined to think it could be, but if it also serves one or two more useful functions then all the better, but of course that becomes more complex.

I think I will rest on this for a while now.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-23 10:40:31)

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Void

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

So, as I see it we want a ballerina to shotput.
Shotput: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=VRDGAR
Pirouette: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ajaxhist=0
https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ajaxhist=0

So, in my little world we are capturing a masculine into s feminine and then releasing it as a masculine again.

The shotput is feminine to masculine, the Pirouette is masculine to feminine.

Of if you like to interpret my madness, Masculine = more linear, and the Feminine = more circular.

So, the Shotput extracts spin energy, and so reduces spin rate, while the Pirouette may increase spin rate to send more spin to the process.

So in the Pirouette mass is to be moved from the periphery towards spin center.  I suggest preloaded spring releases to do that Pirouette action.

Such mass might fill other functions such as radiation protection at times, as one example.

So, we also need a Shot to put, an object to throw.

So, the objects to "Put" might involve this process at some point:  https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … ef1b&ei=17  Quote:

NASA’s Ground-breaking Project: Paved Roads on the Moon
Story by Nimrah Khatoon  •
6h

I have a proposed object shape: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 10#p215010
https://www.dreamstime.com/round-concre … e214879213
Image Quote:

Yes, that could have merit for several reasons and them might be manufactured on the Moon.

I have previously mentioned that they can be assembled into useful tubular structures.  But also, if you put a rocker inside of them they would be somewhat easy to lift to orbit.

The spin launchers could be helping to lift them further as up mass away from the Moon, but also, they could be sending down mass to the Moon.  Sections resembling the up mass sections but made of plastics to send down to the Moon.

The up mass sections made of Moon materials woudl be made of proportions of substances of the Moon, that would be desirable.  Not just any mix of rock.

My reason is the same as why taconite pellets are not made of just any type of rock.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taconite
Image Quote:

It is because the pellets are of a shape and chemistry that will work well in the iron making process.

Similarly the tubular objects might become structure, but also might be rendered into chemical subparts as well.
Only the amount of Oxygen wanted for instance would be bound to the materials, and only the metals desired would be present.  So, then you don't pay the shipping costs for materials that do not suit the end purposes.

Using a series of spin statins, mass dropped down to the Moon may in part support Mass lifted from the Moon.

It is a bit like having two pipelines with one fluid passing downward, driving a pump that pumps a fluid up the other pipeline.  Certainly not of a high efficiency but of some assistance.

A factor not yet discussed too much is object capture.  This might be done with nets, and cables to capture a object sent to a spin station.  It is not a necessary method but could be very useful if it could be done.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-23 13:25:30)

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Void

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I think I need to point out that for the transport system to work, it is not necessary that plastics get transported to the Moon, it simply is helpful.

For instance, if you are in an orbit and have one parcel to send to the Moon, and one to send from the Moon, releasing one will position the ship more favorably to releaser the other.

I think that send from a spin platform will for a very long time be much more practical than will be catch a load with a net on a tether.

So, it may be needed to have an efficient transport method to deliver the packages to the spin stations.  So, a spin statin might dump loads into an orbit, in a repeated timing, and a tug would go and fetch them and carry them to another spin station at a deferent orbital energy level.  These might be electrically driven ships, maybe Argon, maybe Neumann Drive.
Possibly they would be solar wind driven with magnetism.

There could be many sources of plastics, the poles of the Moon, Earth, various other worlds.

To deviate in the conversation a little bit I will add that if a spin station had weights for Pirouette, then that weight could store centrifugal energy, be a radiator, and also, be radiation protection.

Or it could be a greenhouse. for instance.

There are a lot of unknowns. 

A thing that seems true is that the Moon could support large scale industrialization with robots.

Something that I think is true is that Oxygen could be extracted from the Moon all the way to LEO, and perhaps be 6 times cheaper than to bring it up from Earth.  If this claim needs correction please let me know.

I think that spin platforms could increase the ability to bring Oxygen to useful locations.  Spin platforms could to a large extent be made from Lunar materials, and to a large extent spin planforms would be a reusable form of propulsion.

I think that spin platforms could be assistive to get plastics to the Moon.

Loads that might come from the as hollow cylinders, may be incorporated into linear assemblies, but also might be rendered into feedstock.  They might be wrapped in metal strapping, and also the ceramic portions may contain chemically bonded Oxygen.  So, storage actually could be relatively easy.  In storage they might be protective of structures as radiation shielding, and perhaps thermal and impact buffers.

While plastics might come from Earth or the poles of the Moon, many other worlds could eventually feed plastics to the system.  A combination of spin stations and also photon sailing might do very well for this.

Worlds can supply large amounts of Carbon and Hydrogen, and some can supply Nitrogen.
Mercury: Carbon and Hydrogen.
Venus: Nitrogen, Carbon, and Hydrogen.
Mars/Phobos/Deimos: Carbon, Hydrogen, and Nitrogen.
Asteroid Belt: Carbon, Hydrogen, Nitrogen.

And from Mercury and Venus, photon propulsion should be rather good.  It can work for Mars and the asteroid belt but it will be harder.

Over time with inputs of plastics, the Earth/Moon system should be able to host a lot of para terraform situations on the Moon and in orbits.

And Mars/Phobos/Deimos should host quite a lot as well, and of course the asteroid belt as well.

Photon sails and spin platforms might be compatible with each other to achieve the flow of plastics.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-23 17:25:51)

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Void

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Light Box:

Think of the drawing as if you are looking at a cylinder cut away edge on, and the blue is the window at one end of the cyliinder.

Inspired by: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 08#p215108

Quote:

This is of interest: https://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/lif … 3c95&ei=44
Quote:

Researchers discover unexpected material can boost solar panel efficiency: ‘Effectively absorbs ultraviolet … and near-infrared wavelengths’
Story by Jane Donohue  •
3d

This is an example of cross-pollination, and potentially an accumulation.  It is very good that not all innovation is too strongly embedded in one central cultural power group, or these innovations might not show up.

This process may do very well in space, as first heat is extracted from wavelengths not suitable for solar panels, and then the solar panels get a spectrum which is closer to ideal for them.

I will make note that a heat pump system may work very well with this as the electricity will be present at the same Time as the heat is present.

Done.

Of course I have added a potential biological function as well.

I will make more drawings for this later.

The device may be assistive to the spin stations.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-24 12:19:40)

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Void

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

For energy and food production I am currently looking at something resembling an inverse Vacuum Flask.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_flask
Image Quote:   Quote:

Diagram of a vacuum flask

But where the label Vacuum is applied, we are likely to apply the highest pressurization.

Interior to that the pressure is likely to be considerably lower than that, and exterior to the bottle we would expect to have a space vacuum condition which is the greatest partial vacuum of all.

We will have a window method at the location of the cork shown.

This would be built in a similar fashion: Light Box:

We may want to try to involve an oil filled window method to collect heat from unwanted wavelengths, similar to this: https://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/lif … 3c95&ei=44
Quote:

Researchers discover unexpected material can boost solar panel efficiency: ‘Effectively absorbs ultraviolet … and near-infrared wavelengths’
Story by Jane Donohue  •
4d

So, the interior of the structure can be pressurized with gasses and perhaps also liquids, as it is to spin and generate synthetic gravity.

The objective is to generate power and food, and other life support.  Such a structure might also host humans as well.

It is possible that this would work with a spin launcher, transmitting power to it using microwaves.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-24 15:21:30)

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Void

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Not fine art, but perhaps a bit assistive to convey an idea:

If the cylinder if rotating, then the weight of the window will help to hold pressure.  In fact, weight might be added.  And the skeletal structure between the window parts, would experience compressive, and not tensile strain.

I have not show end windows but they can be put there. 

Compression between the window cylinder and the metal outer cylinder would be of a gas, but also a liquid like water could be utilized.

Most regolith should give metals, glass materials, and Oxygen for the structure.  If necessary, things like Hydrogen and Nitrogen might be imported.

Water fill might be preferred to soil, as it can give water column compression, radiation protection, thermal moderation, heat engine assist, and allow plant growth.

With additional structure (Diving bells), human life might be compatible.

Unlike with a soil fill, a leaking hull could be accessed for repairs more easily.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-24 17:48:07)

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Void

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Most built habitable world concepts I am familiar with do not tend to use water and Oxygen as a building material to the extent that I think that they should.

I feel that a water dominated version is going to be rather profitable.  In addition I would expect some stations that would be more specialized in launching payloads, and if affordable some that could be like Earth biome simulations.

For the water filled devices, an attempt to blend a power plant with a type of agriculture seems like a good idea to me.  Various schemes for this could exist, but as one ventures outward in the solar system, where more and more of the water can be obtained, husbandry of the light received seems like a effort worth making.  That as concentrating mirrors may make it possible to create practical installations in the Asteroid Belt, Jupiter?, Saturn?, Uranus, Neptune?  Beyond?

It think that Saturn would be pushing it a lot, but let's never say never.

So, the idea of having an initial filter that captures the power of wavelengths not compatible with life, to run a heat engine seems sensible.  I then the compatible wavelengths can be passed on, then that can promote life, and then also have the option to run power capture systems as well.

One system I suggested has at least two levels of transparency where a gas promoted pressurization can be promoted.  These can be a first one at a lower pressure and then a second one at a somewhat higher pressure.  Then inside the glass and metal bounded cylinder can be a body of water which due to spin gravity can add more water column pressurization. 

IN that body of water I see high possibility to create circumstances where farming could occur.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-25 11:31:21)

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Void

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

The nearest non-Earth object that has large amounts of everything would be Mars/Phobos/Deimos.

Then the Asteroid Belt.  Then Ceres, and then Callisto;
Ceres and Callisto likely each have some Nitrogen compounds.

The Saturn system with Titan and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebe_(moon)

If Phoebe is a Centaur then it should have some accessible stony materials I would be hoped.

As for Titan, I am wondering if nuclear rockets traveling there might be able to land and then be converted to power plants.

A wild card of course would be fusion, but with fission and also mirrored solar, I think that the Saturn system would be rich.

It is not that insane to have thin x100 mirrors for solar energy in orbit of Saturn.

Imagine how many more times of water habitat that could be supported.  Very much more than that of the Earth, I am sure.

Done

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Void

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

So, Saturn ~ x100
    . Jupiter ~ x25  (Trojan Asteroids also).
     .Inner Belt  ~ x4
     .Mars ~x2

But if perfect optics, (windows, mirrors), is resumed, usually almost continual sunlight.

And in space less attenuation as no atmosphere.

In the real world, optics including water transparency will attenuate the photon delivery to a purpose, but even it you are at Saturn with mirrors that are times 100, you can deliver 24/7 Earth equivalent light, (Potentially).  Most crops we have don't require that much light.

If we are at Mars, we potentially would have ~1/2 light without mirrors, but if mirrors were used then the windows can be smaller.

Of course, our great hope could be that Phobos and Deimos could supply water, but if not then they can supply Oxygen, to make water, and Hydrogen could be brought up from Mars.

There is plenty of water on Mars.  We don't need oceans on Mars. https://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/facts/ocean-depth.html  Quote:

How deep is the ocean?
The average depth of the ocean is 3,682 meters, or 12,080 feet.

100 feet would probably be enough and perhaps even overkill.  I think it is very likely that Mars has that much, but it really does not need even half of it really, as you would not cover all of Mars with water.  Even Earth is not entirely covered with water.

So, there are even buried ice caps a mile down that could be accessed.

Energy created in water filled synthetic gravity machines could be used to melt two seas on Mars, one at each pole.

such assets could be farmed both in orbits and the seas at the poles of the planet.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-25 20:30:18)

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Void

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

The honest truth is that if big metal devices with water in them exist the corrosion will need to be a problem to address.  But that is true of virtually all metal machines. that have contact with various chemicals.  Here on Earth, on alien planets, or in O'Neill cylinders.

It is an interesting thing that potentially, using the suns photons, we may eventually be able to draw Centaur objects inward, perhaps to become trojans of Jupiter, or into the asteroid belt itself.  Granted Fission and Fusion might play a role.  So, basically billions of years of such a process exists as a potential future for humans or what follows humans.

The test will be human nature and a lottery, I am afraid.

The lottery is something like when will a rogue object hit Earth.  Are we already the lucky ones at the Casino?

Then we have the time constant of breeding of improper men.  I fear that how this works, is society craves aggressive men, but then sends them to slaughter each other periodically.

Clearly, we have an irrational process.  Men with talents are to be exploited, and breeding will preferentially go to the "Bad Boys", who create unstable social situations when there are too many of their kind, and too few productive men.  Then the women send the men off to butcher each other.  I think that there is a time constant to it.

The Greeks reportedly did not think that well of over muscled men, or giant penises.  Our culture is not that rational.
Huge penises, represent big men, and big men can kill and steal, and even eat their victims, (In the good old days).

It is so stupid, men must have huge members, and yet females are raised to be perverts who are allergic to men's body parts as they have not been imprinted on the actual nature of men, but are presented with a false representation of men.  For instance "Ken" only has a bump.  In real life females can have bumps but to some degree men are not supposed to even show a bump.  In wearing pants, men are made to resemble women.

It is a fun game, as there is money to be made in the process of messing people up and then selling them solutions to their maladaptive nature.

So, there you go.  Want to go to the slaughter yet again boys?  Or shall we wait for the grand slam from a rogue object?

Girls, do you really think that this is a nice thing to do?

Done

You might think that I am making trouble, but my feeling is that there is a small chance that I might initiate an improvement in process.  We don't need WWIII, and good chances that it will the bang before our last whimper.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-26 07:32:41)

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Void

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

This material is timely, as I was thinking nuclear fission to Titan:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 04#p194504
Quote:

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 7,751
Email
Norwegian company unveils a vessel concept with a thorium molten salt reactor

https://interestingengineering.com/tran … lt-reactor … lt-reactor

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 08#p215208
Quote:

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 15,133
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For Mars_B4_Moon re #18

There must be something in the water in Scandinavia ...

Here is an update from a company in Denmark...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U434Sy9BGf8

The presentation includes quite a lot of detail about how the newly invented thorium reactor is designed.

The claim is made that a golf ball sized glob of thorium can provide all the energy a person needs for a life time, and a cost of $1 per year assuming a 100 year lifetime.

The presentation addresses nuclear waste by burning it.

(th)

I think people like Calliban and Antius, have helped me to understand how valuable a "Radiator" like Titan could be.

I think that Thorium powered spacecraft, could go to Titan, and aerobrake to it, and used a parachute to land.  And with that would exist a place humans might be able to inhabit relatively successfully.

It is possible that in the Saturn system there would be stony and metal resources, but if other solar ships were built inner in the system, those going outward could be filled with water and some Nitrogen.

Titan having a low gravity and a substantial atmosphere then physical commerce between Titan and solar farms would likely be practical, I feel.

On Titan, I feel that domes made with water ice and plastics would be very practical and could be very large.  They could be filled with a Nitrogen/Oxygen atmosphere.  They could likely be enormous.  While I am becoming a fan for nuclear fission, I feel that Saturn could also be fine for solar, in orbit and that microwave power could be beamed down to those domes.  In fact the rectenna receivers might be part of the structures of the domes.

I can see that some would say why solar at Saturn, but it would be very thin relatively slow moving mirrors to produce the concentrated light.  I think it would be practical.

Such mirrors might be manufactured in many places in the solar system and then simply flown to Saturn on photons.  Large water filled synthetic gravity worlds could serve as radiators for the heat engines that the mirrors concentrated light could drive.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-26 10:36:08)

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Void

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

So, then based on the previous post, can we expect Thorium to be available in various parts of the solar system?  I think it is likely.

Then I wonder about Centaurs once again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centaur_( … stem_body)

So Phoebe might be a captured Centaur, so it might be practice.  So the Saturn system would have Titan, Enceladus, and Phoebe as important objects to have a look at.  If Enceladus may not have life, then it may be possible to have robots that can mine the bottoms of its ocean.

As for Phoebe, it is thought that Centaurs maybe 50% rocky materials.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebe_(moon)
Image Quote:

I think that Isaac Arthur is interested in "Jupiter Comets" which may be similar in composition.

If true, then basically there could be an a virtually endless supply of Thorium, as Centaurs come and new ones come.

If mining was done, then all the components might be put to good use.

So, even without fusion endless energy, it might seem.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-26 11:03:50)

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Void

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Calliban posted about Mercury: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 42#p215242

And I am beginning to have a crisis of options per space habitation choices.

They all seem to have all the organic compounds needed, and in some way the metals and other solids desired.  Our Moon may be the only "Dry" one, but even that may fall into correction with further study.

Where I may differ from many members on this site, is I am not a Mars purist.  What is emerging for technology does not support Mars purism.  For instance, the Starship, sort of built for a just possible access of Mars with bulk cargo and humans, will rather easily be adaptable to access of many other worlds, and this seems to have been included in the creation plans.  So, rather than following Mars purism, I have a tendency to be enthusiastic about Mars, but recognize that many options are going to exist, and those options will have a tendency to support each other.

Mars Purism is a bit insane at this point as far as I am concerned.

It appears that the Earth has vast oceans of water embedded in deep rock, and it may be that Mercury has such as well.

There is a question of how Venus has Hydrogen in its atmosphere at this point.  Where is replacement coming from?  In my mind, it can either be from inside the planet, or from the solar wind.  We don't know yet for sure, but it looks like it is possible that at some point Venus got very wet, or the solar wind giveth and taketh as per Hydrogen.

We think that Ceres and some of the other larger asteroids in the outer belt were and are rather wet.

So, then we don't know about Mars, but suspect a wet past.

Our Moon?  Well, if a big comet hit it, would it develop a temporary atmosphere which might allow liquid water for a short time period?  Even days might be enough, the water might sink in, and go deep.  I don't think that is so probable at this time, but in the past, I think it might have occurred many times.  But we don't know yet.

I think now that it is highly probable that there are many forces seeking to hold chains on the human race, and so putting down and obstructing industrial/technological development.  But there are many also who are not like that at all.

Basically, it works like people who tell thugs to beat people up who get in the way of molding the human race into servile tools to exploit.

The sources of these actions are often from older cultures, where in my opinion the people with talents have been excluded from the gene and meme pool.  So, like vampires these people seek to subjugate useful people.

So, in my opinion we have to ward off the "Blank Slaters", as they will proclaim that they are the arbiters of moral fairness, which disguises their exploitation of our peoples, and we have to be wary of the "Darwinist Cruelty" vendors, who think that they can apply cruelty to society and that that will create superior racial traits.  Some of those cheat on the edges of that by using eugenics as well.

But in any case, both variations of these kind of people are looking for a free ride on a bed of words, words that give instructions to thugs.  So, socially that is what we are up against.  I much prefer to look at the positive side where we may have enough talents emerge that we can ward them off and escape their chains.

Keep in mind though that one of their tools is to create false realities for us to live in.  This blinds and deafens us, so that we can better be exploited by their greed.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-28 10:04:42)

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Void

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Solar (Real)
Fission (Real)
Fusion (Not ready yet, if ever).

It is becoming clear to me that some types of Solar will work better in microgravity than on a planet.

But it also is becoming clear that Nuclear Fission being real, could turn very dangerous radioactive waste into less dangerous waste.  This process could give a whole lot of energy as well.

Here is a repeat, I appropriated from other members: (See post #1417) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U434Sy9BGf8

And I came across this as well today: Nuclear:
https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE

So, I am very open minded about nuclear.  If we do not burn up the nuclear waste to a less dangerous form, then a situation of social decay might make it a great hazard that could persist.  So, going more nuclear fission should make the world safer, and not more dangerous.

And of course, these technologies might be very useful on Mars and some other worlds with intermittent solar power.

But, I have also run into some interesting solar technology which I think could have applications in space as well as on worlds: Solar Cells:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … 033e&ei=13
Quote:

Scientists develop mega-thin solar cells that could be shockingly easy to produce: ‘As rapid as printing a newspaper’
Story by Lajja Mistry  •
4d

Quote:

Although the cells can only generate half the energy per unit area compared to traditional silicon panels, they can generate 18 times more power per kilogram, Fast Company reported.

  So, that could matter for space applications.

While I consider that these would be light weight, I think they might also deteriorate rapidly in an unmodified space environment, so I am thinking about encasing them into a protective structure.  There are no guarantees of a productive success as I only have partial information on the nature of these, but I could be worth a little time to consider the possibilities.

I am having some thoughts about layering.  While I do not at this time dismiss the use of such power devices for active propulsion, I am more thinking about more stationary situations for them, and perhaps in microgravity.

So, if you built a thin can like structure you could put these inside, where the environment would be somewhat modified.
You could also put anti-solar cells on the outside of the can.

I am actually thinking about very large structure without pressurization in them.

At the minimum these would provide an interior environment somewhat protected from small impactors, harsh solar and thermal conditions, and also thermally modified.  And objects inside may tend to be kept from floating away.

Very large.  so large that you could put spin gravity devices in it and fly spaceships into it, perhaps.

I guess if you have the materials, you could put radiation shielding on its walls, but I don't specify it at this time.

Right or wrong that is what I have in mind.  Something like an extra layer of protection you might put on for clothing.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-28 17:04:31)

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Void

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Car circumstances have stranded me, so I might as well do some nerd things.

I am just goofing around to amuse myself so, keep that in mind.

In the previous post I had this simple drawing which is to represent the cross section of a cylinder:

This time I want to have it spinning but not necessarily pressurized.

When I ran across this, I started wondering about putting terrariums inside of it:  https://phys.org/news/2022-12-rubble-pi … itats.html  Image Quote:

Their arrangements are a bit different, for instance they have solar panels on the outside.  I suppose that remains an option.

But I am considering as a terrarium option a toroid.

Let's consider the Stanford Torus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_torus
Image Quote:
Image Quote:

When you combine the cylinder with at least one torus, then you get all kinds of variations possible, and I will only be touch on a small number.

While the torus may be pressurized to satisfy human needs the cylinder interior may offer much less life support, but it may be very suitable to industrial activity.

OK, here is another crude drawing indicating a torus inside of a cylinder:

I have not specified if the torus is anchored to the cylinder or may spin at its own rate on bearings.

There could be some concern for overheating if it is not anchored, so for the moment I tend to favor anchored.

This sort of points to some possible options.  But I am going to make a serious revision for other options.

OK, I have added water to the interior of the torus:

OK, now I added some diving bells into the water, they are filled with air:

Now what vapor pressure do we want on the top of the water in the torus?

Calculator: https://endmemo.com/chem/vaporpressurewater.php

If the water in the torus is a polar sea water and ice simulation, we may drop it to about the triple point of water.  In this case the glaze portion of the torus where the light might come in only needs to hold 5.2256 mbar differential pressure.

That is rather a harsh environment, but it might foster some kind of crop, perhaps polar plant and algae life.

But we could put another torus into the cylinder and have other conditions.

In this other torus we might put a air pressure of 333 mb, and then the air pressure in the diving bells might be 700 mbar (No say 666!).

The upper environment would be almost all Oxygen, and the diving bell environment perhaps a N2/O2 mix.

This environment would be somewhat compatible with humans and also some types of farming.

And of course, if gardening were all that was needed then some values between the two might be employed.

Maybe 100 mbar in the top and 333 mbar in the diving bells.

The top would be lethal to unprotected humans but gardening would be possible I think.  The diving bell environments would be capable of human life support.

So, what I am drifting towards is a form of layering.

I don't wish to be rude, but university types although providing wonderful training to us over time may lack an understanding of adaptation to harsh environments, and how gradual layering may be helpful to success.

I think that this did not turn out too bad.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-28 17:56:03)

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Void

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I posted this today, and I think it may have value here: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 26#p215326
Quote:

This seems good to know: https://phys.org/news/2023-10-mouse-emb … japan.html
Quote:

OCTOBER 29, 2023

Editors' notes
Mouse embryos grown in space for first time: Japan researchers

To me this starts to add hope that low gravity situations will not be impossible to cope with.  Mars, and also synthetic gravity machines.

I do not so much favor pregnancy in microgravity.  Vomiting and other bodily functions would make it hard to manage.  But I am starting to think that .2 g or somewhere thereabouts might be workable to some extent.

I think the sensation of up/down will be an important boundary.

Well, this seems to indicate .15 g as the boundary: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4153541/
Quote:

We found that the influence of 1 g in determining the perceptual upright did not depend on whether the acceleration was created by lying on the centrifuge or by normal gravity. The 50% threshold for centrifuge-simulated gravity's ability to influence the perceptual upright was at around 0.15 g, close to the level of moon gravity but much higher than the threshold for detecting linear acceleration along the long axis of the body. This observation may partially explain the instability of moonwalkers but is good news for future missions to Mars.

So, these are good things to try to define.

Done

This makes me want to pursue the idea of toroid's inside of cylinders.

I see two first problems to solve:
1) Gyroscopic Effects.
2) Emergent Archaic Human Behaviors.

For #1, I guess in time I will be told if my notions are lacking good sense or not.
For #2, I think we have to get ahead of the human likelihood to breed backwards when stimulus no longer causes forward breeding.

I see it as the "Spoiled Child" problem.  Industrial/Technical people invent a condition of plenty, and then archaic types of feed on that to replace the population.  I guess the other way to fall into the archaic is to have a mass failure of a social order.  Perhaps we are doing both at this time.

I suppose I could go into accusations, but that can be distributed through a population.  The social processes that promote terrorism are of a concern.  If you build a machine the hive mind will speak words and the thugs will take orders, and the machine will be broken, and a descent into barbarism or even savage levels will be possible.  So, the solution to that is both social, and also to build machines that are less susceptible to cascade breakdowns initiated by terror sources.

The social end of it is not to breed men who have excessive verbal and violence tendencies, and not to breed women who adore encouraging it.  From a female perspective, if you have 100 people 50 female and 50 male and you cause the males to kill each other, you may end up with 70 people.  Perhaps 25 males were killed and 5 females.  Then the females can breed with the surviving males.  Unfortunately, this breeds people suitable for the stone age and perhaps cannibalism, not space fairing industrial/technological people.  I don't think that most people are consciously aware of this bigger picture, but this may be a circular trap that humans seldom escape from.

I guess there is a little bit of possibility that a clever killer may have good technological skills, so the following generations may not be entirely without skills that are better than sticks and stones.  But that is a poor way to advance technologically in my opinion.

So, I am going to try to address a machine to build and consider its vulnerability to stupid human breeding.

Starting with this again:

So, I have this now, but it is susceptible to terrorism and possible negligence:

'A' is a window added to hold a low pressure.

I seem to be having a repeated computer malfunction or I am being attacked when I hook up to this site.  I will continue if possible.

'B' and 'C' are horizontal "Glaze" covered greenhouse situations and to my liking have water in their bottoms.  They may experience .15 g force, maybe .2 g force.

'D' and 'E' are each toroid structures with independent spin directions and rates and could give higher g forces.

Obviously if you have all decent people in this you only have to fear an act of nature or negligence to cause a cascade failure.  A centrifugal explosion that would wreck everything.

So, some thought it needed to reduce the magnitude of damage produced to the whole social system associated with this, and also to idiot/terrorist proof the device(s).

I have not produced that yet.

Done

It needs notion that while nesting habitats presents problems, it also gives layering.  The radiation shielding of the cylinder is inherited by the torus structures, and also some other protections are inherited.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-29 08:29:57)

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Void

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Posts: 7,820

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

This post has some nesting in it, where one larger structure hosts smaller structures and the smaller structure inherits some protection from the larger structure: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 12#p214812

Quote:

So, one thing I have tried from time to time is to integrate a power plant with a space Habitat, so I will project yet another try here now, I hope.  This modification may serve to give some illustration:

https://www.sciencealert.com/could-huma … anet-ceres
The "Drums" are intended to be hosted on a superstructure such as this, (Quote):

So, perhaps I am going in circles.  That is not always wrong, at some point something new might show up.

But I guess I will meditate on it a bit.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-29 09:45:46)

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Void

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Keep in mind that I currently lack transportation and am amusing myself here.

I think I want to adopt this scheme as the outer parent of a nesting method:

There are good chances that most or all of what I present already exists in the planning for this thing, but I will amuse myself anyway.  The central deck that the arrows of light point to, could easily host zero g pressurized spaces connected by pressurized tubes.  So, plenty of options for zero g gardening.   https://www.21stcentech.com/space-updat … d-gravity/  Quote:

Space Update: Plants Don’t Seem to Mind Zero Gravity
lenrosen4
By
lenrosen4
December 12, 2012

Some images: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=ze … 177&ch=510

Of course, these will need methods to address radiation concerns.

And then a variety of "Spin Gravity" devices could be included.  Anything that members or readers wanted to consider might work, but I have a couple of things I like for this.

This should be a bit confusing as it is intended to display multiple options.  Not all have to be used:

'A' is a possible pathway requiring a seal to keep differential pressure in check where two moving parts meets.
'B' is a variable vacuum.  Usually I use blue for water, but here it is a situation of variable pressure.  Low pressure to let the dark grey spin gravity device produce up to 1 g, and then possibly full air pressure to let people and things pass when the spinner is in a stopped state.
So, a periodic spin gravity.

The brown box shaped enclosure indicates that the entire spin structure with its vacuum chamber could be nested inside of a parent enclosure if desired.

So, between the two, the zero g gardens and the spin disks, it seems to me things would not be too bad.  It would really be something to be in a giant zero g pressurized cylinder garden. 

You might want some kind of aircraft though.  And it might be that you would have some kind of fix for the inner ear giving you motion sickness, maybe an implant like Neuralink?

And I think that rest rooms may be put into centrifuges of a small sort.

I think that stop and go spinners would be OK, particularly if you had a lot of them not all on the same schedule.

Perhaps bedrooms would be like that as well, so that you would sleep in .15 g force, and maybe those if streamlined might not need to be put into a vacuum.  They might help to circulate air inside the large microgravity chambers.

So far, I have tried to make a situation where you would not have to go into a spaceship to go from pressurized space to another.

But some spinners and other sections could be apart.  An aquatic water farm spinner might be that way.

I have felt that although the mega satellite was conceived for Ceres other places might do as well.

I think Mars/Phobos/Deimos might do as well.

This list of exceptional asteroids may suggest how many places a scheme like this might work with: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e … _asteroids

87 Sylvia is just one that can be of interest.  The description is very interesting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/87_Sylvia
Quote:

Physical characteristics
Sylvia is very dark in color and probably has a primitive composition, though with some internal differentiation. The discovery of its moons made possible an accurate measurement of the asteroid's mass, density and mass distribution. Its density is low (around 1.4 times the density of water), indicating that the asteroid is porous; best-fit models estimate it had an original composition by volume of 35% rock, 13% ice and 52% internal voids, and that today it consists of a pristine anhydrous outer layer, and a differentiated interior, with meltwater having percolated inward so that the porosity of the rock is filled with ice out to a radius of about 46 km, then ice-free porous rock out to about 104 km.[3]

Sylvia is a fairly fast rotator, turning about its axis every 5.2 hours, giving it an equatorial rotation velocity of about 65 m/s, almost half the escape velocity.

Sylvia's shape is flattened and elongated (a/b ≈ 1.45 ; a/c ≈ 1.84) and somewhat irregular. However, its surface has not been imaged well enough for individual features to be resolved.

Satellite system

Adaptive Optics observations of (87) Sylvia, showing its two satellites, Remus and Romulus.
Sylvia has two orbiting satellites. They have been named (87) Sylvia I Romulus and (87) Sylvia II Remus, after Romulus and Remus, the children of the mythological Rhea Silvia.

Romulus, the first moon, was discovered on February 18, 2001, from the Keck II telescope by Michael E. Brown and Jean-Luc Margot. Remus, the second moon, was discovered over three years later on August 9, 2004, by Franck Marchis of UC Berkeley, and Pascal Descamps, Daniel Hestroffer, and Jérôme Berthier of the Observatoire de Paris, France.

The orbital properties of the satellites are listed in this table.[3][9] The orbital planes of both satellites and the equatorial plane of the primary asteroid are all well-aligned. Diameters are estimates based on the assumption that the moons have the same albedo as their primary.

And it has two tiny moons that could serve quite well also.

As I seen it volatile materials could come from the asteroid belt to our Moon, or from Mercury or even Venus.

So, really locking space efforts completely into the gravity well of one planet, even Mars, does not look like the best path to me.  I want Mars in the Mix, but not as the sole objective.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-29 17:36:00)

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Void

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I guess I want to revisit Venus again and see what might be possible: https://www.universetoday.com/36291/is- … -on-venus/ Quote:

Recent observations by ESA’s Venus Express spacecraft found that Venus has a trail of hydrogen and oxygen atoms blasted away from the planet by the Sun’s solar winds. Every second, there are 2 x 1024 hydrogen atoms streaming away from Venus.

So, where does the water on Venus come from?  Really, the information is not that good.

But there is Hydrogen in the Sulfuric Acid, and there is a bit of water in the clouds.

Fetching that would be hard.  I am interested in the composition of the tail of Venus, but information is hard to get:
https://www.mpg.de/6885096/venus-tail

Because of the dryness of Venus Oxygen is rejected upwards out of the atmosphere by a strong electrical field.  This article mentions Oxygen in the tail: https://phys.org/news/2013-01-planet-co … -weak.html

Oxygen and Hydrogen losses mentioned here: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 330600170X

OK, so I cannot find any reference to Nitrogen or Carbon compounds in the tail of Venus.  I suppose there must be some.

In the end though to mine the atmosphere of Venus, I see 3 primary methods:
1) The tail (Somehow condensing the tail into things like water?).
2) Orbital tethers?
3) Floating cities and rockets.

#3 looks pretty hard but it might be rewarding.

If we could get volatiles for our Moon from Venus, that might be a good thing.  And then to send Moon stuff to Venus.

Looking at the problems for this, it might well be that instead working with Asteroids or Mars/Phobos/Deimos or even Mercury might make more sense, but I want to look at the possibilities for Venus.

First of all, can you get stony/metal materials to Venus?  Our Moon could be involved, and perhaps some inner asteroids might be involved.

So, there are quite a few Venus crossing asteroids. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_V … or_planets
Those are interesting and they seem to be rather small, 1-3 km perhaps, and the orbits may not be suitable.

The mining of Venus itself could be interesting, but probably is a very tough thing to do at this time.

Might as well look at the atmospheric mining video of Isaac Arthur:  https://www.reddit.com/r/IsaacArthur/co … ic_mining/

So, I think things wanted from Venus would be Plastics, Carbon, and Ammonia.  (This stuff would have to be created in cloud cities).

Any of these could be rocket fuels, but not fantastic ones.  I guess we might want Methane after all.   But Plastics, Carbon are solids, and Ammonia may not require too much cooling.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonia
Quote:

Boiling point:    −33.34 °C (−28.01 °F; 239.81 K

So again Ammonia might not be too demanding for cooling to prevent boiloff.

As it happens, I feel that stripping Hydrogen out of the atmosphere of Venus might be a method to make it more suitable for cloud cities.  This might diminish the Sulfuric Acid.  The atmosphere would still be toxic in the extreme but might not be as hostile to build structures.

Pulling the Hydrogen out to make Ammonia and export it could be a good game for cloud cities, I think.

If you could build a "Starship" that could tolerate the conditions, then maybe it would be very big.  It would not need landing legs of course as it would not land.

You would most likely not need landing propellants, but you might want to be able to fill the ship with Methane or Ammonia, to make it float, I think.  Danger of explosion without Oxygen should not be large.

So, it would be a bit like a dirigible.

Specific Gravity of gasses: https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/spec … %20rows%20

Well, I think we have a payoff.  I think that both Ammonia and Methane could make good lifting gasses on Venus.  Not good breathing gasses though.  Air is 1.000
Quote:

Ammonia - NH3    0.59
Methane - CH4    0.5537
Nitrogen - N2 (pure)    0.9669
Nitrogen - N2 (atmospheric)    0.9723

And then: Hydrogen    0.0696

I guess some balloons may be possible now that can hold Hydrogen for extended periods.

For lifting a Starship though, that has just arrived at atmosphere from orbit, Ammonia and Methane look pretty good.

As far as ridding Venus of Sulfuric Acid though, good chances that a constant stream of more Hydrogen is either coming from inside of Venus or from the solar wind.

And that is not all bad.  If you could export lots of Ammonia, that could go a long way for an economy for Venus.

And of course, still we might be able to involve tethers, and maybe even condensation in the Exosphere and/or tail of the atmosphere of the planet Venus.

Then the question is if this stuff can go to the Moon, can the Moon send stuff to Venus?

While something like Starship might be good for exporting Ammonia, Carbon, and Plastics, it might be that one time capsules made of Lunar materials might be the way to get materials from the Moon to the atmosphere and orbits of Venus.

I would presume one-time ablative heatshields from Lunar Materials.

But this is my best guess at this time, and it is getting to be a long post.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-29 20:00:52)

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