Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Void · 2023-09-24 13:51:15

I feel I should do follow up for this post #1322: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 45#p213945
Quote:

I really need to do my chores today, but this is more fun.
Spinneret: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinneret
So, I have some hope that if we were to use the Newmann Drive as a mass driver, to build a Moonmoon(s), various forces might be manipulated to spin a stream of matter, not just consisting of Iron.

It is more to wish for than to see a perfect path towards the achievement.

I am supposing that magnetic materials that can conduct electricity can be used as propellants in a Neumann Drive, and so the output of them may be magnetic after being expelled. I am hoping that that output would be focused enough to be able impinge on a low lunar object collector. Upon impinge, I guess it will ether erode the collector, or be collected by some force, or actually adhere to the collector.

So, I am rather in the dark on reality for this.

And on top of this I would like to try to include nonmagnetic spray from Neuman Drives and involve them somehow with the magnetic spray.

Magnetics, Electrostatics, Centrifugal force collection methods, and perhaps something like vacuum welding. A metal touching to another metal in a vacuum will weld together. So, in that method could you shoot your spray at the right speed to just warm the impact zone to vacuum weld the materials together?

So, you would be applying a coating to your collector. Iron filings in a magnetic field might make a reasonable collector of other Neuman Propellants, but then perhaps also a flat panel of metal might.

There is much more to discover in this than can be assured as sensible at this time, but the rewards might be rather good, if any of it can be done.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-24 20:46:24)

Void · 2023-09-28 09:58:49

Any kind of matter projection from the Moon could have value. That could be more traditional Mass Driver concepts, spaceships with catapult and landing assistive methods, and I think Neumann Drives as matter projectors, maybe.

So, methods may exist to efficiently get materials from the Moon, relatively early on.

Now, as I sometimes do, I will borrow from another member, Mars_B4_Moon:

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 74#p214074

I had this reply: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 75#p214175
Quote:

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,186
Email
A good piece of information Mars_B4_Moon.
Although I might like to see surface-built simulations of lava tubes, using sintering, yes existing lava tubes should be considered. It may not be that hard-to-get chemicals from the polar regions and bring them to the lava tubes for organic chemistry.
It might be nice to build roads inside of the lava tubes, as they may be expected to possibly have rugged floors. If we had small rocks that might do OK for it. Unfortunately, I would not expect small round rocks on the Moon, but if screening was done of Lunar regolith, you might size several grades of output. Then if you got the size of rocks suitable some kind of method might clean them of dust, I hope.
Then you could make a simple road system in the lava tubes.
You might also sinter Roman Arch type structures using the finer stuff.
Someday maybe some of the best lava tube sections might be pressurized by putting supports in, creating antileakage methods, and piling more regolith on top to prevent "'Blow-Outs".
At this time that is how I see it. Of course, you would need access though sky lights and methods of conveyance.
Done.
Last edited by Void (Yesterday 21:30:30)

Looked at that way, a habitation of a lava tube might be a system of roads, power lines, and pipes, like the circulatory system of a organism, And could have various organs to work together to support robots and humans.

And so now I will borrow from myself, another topic for some idea of some organ methods: "Index» Not So Free Chat» Green Space, Including Earth, Robots, and Space Technology." http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 97#p214097 Posts #7, #8, and #9. Quote #7:

This is nice, it discusses Moxie, and even better a lower energy needs plasma method to generate CO and Oxygen.
https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … 95504047B3
I will have further comments, most likely.
Pause.................
Resume:
The end of the previous video talks of the plasma method to split CO2 on Mars.
Here is an article about it: https://www.freethink.com/space/produce … tian%20air.
Quote:
Plasma reactors use electric fields to excite molecules in a gas, causing electrons to break free from atoms. For their study, the researchers demonstrated how an accelerated beam of those electrons could be used to split CO2 molecules in a reactor filled with simulated Martian air.
Can we make crackers out of microbes that eat CO and use Oxygen? (My question)
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41396- … vironments.
Quote:
Atmospheric carbon monoxide oxidation is a widespread
mechanism supporting microbial surviva
For now, lets call these "Mars Crackers".
A Starship will land, with residual Oxygen and Methane to consume. I will also arrive with some Hydrogen to consume in making "Mars Crackers". I will likely have things like Kilo-power Reactors on board.
The plasma method to separate CO2 from the Martian Atmosphere would be 10 times better than Moxie. So, the products to produce will be LOX, Liquid CO, and "Mars Crackers".
The pressure calculator I sometimes use: http://endmemo.com/chem/vaporpressurewater.php
Our sea water freezes at about -2 degrees C, so the pressure would be: 5.2256 mbar.
Very compatible with the plasma method to split CO2 into CO and Oxygen.
So, we will want to sea salt from Earth, to use in a grow tank, and the Liquid Hydrogen and Oxygen,, and Methane, and outside gasses will be used to create a water solvent for microbes to grow in.
The microbes are to be harvested to make "Mars Crackers".
I think that it will be obvious that this method if achieved and perfected will be quite useful in other places in space, including the Moon, in a modified form. And so could help facilitate human presence in Earth orbit to support power satellites to send power to Earth, to keep it green.
This is very nuclear friendly in space, but solar could also power it.
Who needs potatoes, if you have crackers?
I am very pleased!
Humans arriving on Mars would have stored Oxygen, Carbon Monoxide, Mars Crackers, and would be able to synthesize water from Mars crackers, probably after they are eaten. From waste products. This would give them a very big jump start before they had to mine ice.
Done.

The international Space Station has achieved 98% water recycling, i believe. I am guessing that it could be made better in a lava tube, maybe 99.9%? This CO2 to organics might help, also the processing of all human waste. Sort of like the Sci Fi "Dune". The chambers for creating CO and O2 would be low pressure, and also the incubators for organisms that consume it could be low pressure as well, maybe not quite as low pressure.

So, this may reduce the amount of gardening with light needed. Perhaps just a bit of it, maybe under grow lights? Maybe on some parts of the Moon above ground greenhouses. If orbital mirrors could send light in the night, then above ground may be more practical.

A stokes similar ship might work well near the poles and use Hydro lox.

Starship or Terran-R might use a method to bring Methane and take Oxygen from the Moon.

But down the line I like the idea of propulsion systems that use O2 and CO, and also ones that use Preheated Carbon and O2.

I will remention that Carbon could be hard dropped from a ship prior to the ship landing, this may provide efficiency. Carbon can be obtained from some various space sources, and so can Hydrogen, but Hydrogen is valuable as water, and it cannot be hard dropped from a shop onto the Moon. So, eventually I favor Carbon propulsion, particularly away from the poles of the Moon.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-29 10:25:35)

Void · 2023-09-28 18:04:36

I am brought to the point to wonder about a Carbon Neuman Drive in orbit of the Moon. Pushing the exhaust to strike the Moon, what may be the actions and results? This would be a spray of very fine Carbon dust, I expect. Could the output be focused and directed to a point desired? During such an action can the propulsion also do something useful about the orbits of objects(?). Fine dust of Carbon, impacting fine regolith or maybe coarse regolith may become entrained in it I suspect. The fine dust would also have a very large amount of surface area to radiate heat from upon striking the Moon. It takes a very high temperature to vaporize Carbon.

The fancy trick would be to lift something like LOX or metals to a higher orbit while shooting up some spot on the Moon with Carbon.

Not easy I am sure, but an interesting notion, I feel.

Turning the output of a Neumann Drive(s) into a focused beam, may require more than we could do, but I would like to consider if it could be done.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-09-28 18:13:38)

Void · 2023-09-29 10:27:43

The relationship between Lunar bases and matter projection methods is obvious. Materials transfers to and from a base are a requirement.

So, continuing again with Lava Tubes, a simple device like a sintered patio block(s), may be of some value.

I was thinking about sizing materials on the surface of the Moon into sizes. I felt that roads could be built in the lava tubes to deal with rugged lava surfaces. The produced surfaces might wear on tires and footwear and robot feet, so I think sintered patio blocks might be a thing to lay on top of the bed of small rocks. This would be less abrasive, and also might help to control dust.

This all seems low-tech, but that can be a good thing. You want things to serve your needs, not to need you to serve it.

Dust control on the Moon, may be rather important. If you have traveled surfaces a bit elevated, and topped by patio bricks, then a sweeper can sweep dust off of the surfaces, and gravity will help to stabilize the dust to lower surfaces where it is possible have some kind of electrostatic cleaning device, I think.

So, lava tubes are already recognized to protect from Radiation, Temperature Swings, and most impactors. But dust control may be a thing that can be built into them as well, I think.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-29 10:57:08)

Void · 2023-09-29 14:43:25

It has been my desire to build artificial lava tubes on the surface of the Moon, but reality says you use what is there first, so continuing with Lava Tubes: https://www.syfy.com/syfy-wire/bad-astr … for-a-base Image Quote: Quote:

Their models indicate that in some places, like on the floor in direct sunlight under the pit opening, it gets hot during the day, about 150°C (300°F). That would be the hottest known temperature on the Moon, so that’s not a great spot. But that patch of heated surface then indirectly illuminates and warms up the rest of the cave. The rock walls are excellent thermal insulators, and overall they found that in general the temperature inside the lava tube stays around 17°C (63°F), which is maybe a lit bit on the chilly side but far better than literally boiling you out of your skin or freezing you into a solid block of ice at night. Sweater weather, assuming you want to wear one under your spacesuit.

17°C (63°F) seems rather warm actually. People in spacesuits might not do too bad for cooling, not sure. The suit use within the cave could be much more minimal than an Apollo Moon suit, but still cooling is an issue perhaps.

But if the power goes out, you won't freeze.

A source of cold could be radiators on the surface with sun deflectors to keep them out of sunlight, where CO2 could be the working fluid. This might even involve a heat engine. But you need a fair amount of Carbon to do it. The Lunar poles may have some. I suppose you might also circulate a hot loop of CO2 also, heat from sunlight in the daytime. Storage? Well, I guess that can wait.

Done.

I wonder if you could drop Carbon into the skylight safely and keep it from bouncing out and away.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-29 14:56:28)

Void · 2023-09-30 10:12:49

Looking at the previous post, I think using CO2 as a "Cold" loop of piping to radiators on the surface is a reasonable idea. Shades that keep the sunlight off of the radiators makes sense. Sort of a robot(s) with umbrellas.

For the hot side though I would think solar electric panels would makes sense, with wiring feeding electricity into the lava tube.
https://www.blueorigin.com/news/blue-al … nar-future Quote:

Blue Origin manufactured this working solar cell prototype from lunar regolith simulants.
Since 2021, Blue Origin has been making solar cells and transmission wire from regolith simulants.

So, that appears to be covered, and I presume that radiators and piping can be created from produced materials as well.

I would suppose that cold could be produced from the surface all the time, but probably better in the night. From surface installations, solar would be in only the daytime.

Heat engines might be used inside the lava tubes, but also electric storage methods, I suppose. Seems to me that Iron/Oxygen batteries should be possible. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal%E2% … mical_cell Quote:

A metal–air electrochemical cell is an electrochemical cell that uses an anode made from pure metal and an external cathode of ambient air, typically with an aqueous or aprotic electrolyte.[1][2]
During discharging of a metal–air electrochemical cell, a reduction reaction occurs in the ambient air cathode while the metal anode is oxidized.
The specific capacity and energy density of metal–air electrochemical cells is higher than that of lithium-ion batteries, making them a prime candidate for use in electric vehicles. While there are some commercial applications, complications associated with the metal anodes, catalysts, and electrolytes have hindered development and implementation of metal–air batteries.[3][4]

So, you need some Hydrogen for the electrolyte.

Storing heat in some mass might allow the continuous running of a heat engine as well.

Habitations for humans could be built, not requiring quite so much as what the surface might require.

So, I think human presence on the surface of the Moon, will be less often than for in the lava tube, and for the lava tube less than for human life supported habitats.

---------------

When sizing regolith, I think it may be possible to use magnetics to separate out the magnetic materials in the regolith. There should be some.

The non-magnetic fines might be good for robots to sinter into something like a band shell with the open end facing poleward, and with insulation on the sunward side. Then piping bonded to it could be a radiator. So, that could be a source of cold for the CO2 fluids.

So, then eventually start building Roman Arch type build structure in a similar way on the surface.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-30 10:44:17)

Void · 2023-09-30 10:47:26

It may be that Carbon and Hydrogen can come from polar deposits. That may be economical, and there may be enough.

But I like the idea of short span chemical propulsion. My definition of this is from surface to minimal Lunar orbit.
At first using Metha Lox, delivery of Methane to the surface of the Moon, seems possible to me, under the notion that you could create landing assist methods, and also perhaps catapult assist launches for the spacecraft.

In this scheme, Methane comes from Earth, at least at first, and Oxygen may come from the Moon, (Maybe mined from the Earth's upper atmosphere eventually).

So, crewed ships would be different from cargo ships in this.

A cargo ship, having enough Methane to land and take off without assistance, if you have landing assist, and perhaps launch assist, then you can siphon off some of the Methane that normally was needed for the full chemical propulsion. Then you have a flow of Methane to the Lunar base.

So, that can give both Carbon and Hydrogen. This then releases the process from needing polar deposits. But of course, if someone can mine such polar deposits for a lower price, then fine, do some of that. It has been speculated to get water from asteroids. If that is possible, then I would want to retrieve Carbon as well, so financially you have three possibilities to get Carbon and Hydrogen to Lunar bases, and particularly Lava Tube Bases.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asteroid_mining

So, I think that greater habitability of the Moon for Humans and their robots may result.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-30 11:48:15)

Void · 2023-09-30 12:31:12

Assisted landings/Soft Landings/Hard Landings/Lithobraking. I think that these may be blended to some degree, using things like chains or cables.

For now, I like chains. Here I do not indicate molecular chains, but actual chains similar to hardware store obtainable chains. To be sure it is understood here is a reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain Quote: Image Quote:
Quote:

A common metal short-link chain

There are of course other styles of chain, and cables might be an option as well.

Materials that may be included in the chains could be Carbon, Cellulose, Plastics, and Metals.

Here I am trying to diddle with the Rocket Equation even more. Using Lunar Starship as an example, we are not ready to have a soft pad in the landing event, not as Lunar Starship would be now. But if we have reels of chain on the outside perimeter of the ship, at some early point in landing we may unreel, and have dangle of the chains. Of course, on landing these will contact the surface first, as you descend, your payload gets landed on the Moon much sooner than the ship lands. So, the landing legs do not have to be as strong to hold up the ship, because the cargo has been mostly unloaded already, and it may even take less propellants, as the payload gets progressively lighter as you land.

Of course, any diddle may cause complications, the piles of chain may get in the way of the landing legs for instance, but I think the problem is not unsolvable. Also, it may be that the heat of the engine plumes will damage the chain, some damage might be tolerated. And in fact, the engine plumes might push the chains away from the ship so that they pile up away from the ship. This presumes tail engines landing the ship, which could be quote OK, if you had a landing pad to land on.

You might spin the ship on its vertical axis if you want the chains to fall away from the ship, you might do that as well, but again it complicates. things.

You may actually prior to landing the ship disconnect the chains and let them drop a distance. As they are chains, I would be nice if they are not shattered too much as picking them up from the surface may be easier if they are generally in fair lengths of span.

But if you wanted to do hard landings, perhaps piles of dust could receive the chains from a higher distance. As the chain entered the pile it would likely fluidize the pile and the chain, stretching out the impact time and perhaps keeping the chain in a more useable condition.

Of course, with Carbon the prime purpose is to deliver Carbon, I do not think such chains would be useful as a tool. Metal Chains may be more useful as a tool.

Cellulose and Plastic chains would more likely be for the delivery of the materials. Both of the will contain Hydrogen which is useful. They will also have Carbon, which is useful, and perhaps some Oxygen which is really only useful as it helps the material to exist.

I personally think that Hydrogen should be devoted to making water and food.

I do like the eventual move to Hot Carbon or CO as fuel and Oxygen as Oxidizer, for rocket propulsion on the Moon. Of course, this will compete with other methods we already have involving Methane and Hydrogen. Those may be gotten from the polar areas. I presume economics will rule in this competition.

But Carbon as a fuel, is a thing you might land with chains, and it will of course be useful for many other things on the Moon such as CO2 as a working fluid for machines, and structure made of Carbon.

Coal powered Jet:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lippisch_P.13a
Image Quote:

The Lippisch P.12, P.13a and P.13b were related design projects for a ramjet-powered delta wing interceptor aircraft studied in 1944 by German designer Alexander Lippisch. The P.12 and P.13a were unarmed, relying on reinforced wings to ram its opponent. The P.13a and b were to be powered by powdered coal. The DM-1 was a full-size glider, flown to test the P.12/13a low-speed aerodynamics.[1] The design series were unrelated to the earlier P.13 produced by Messerschmitt's Lippisch design office.

Image Quote:

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-09-30 13:07:07)

Void · 2023-09-30 19:22:55

Here is another "Borrow" from another topic: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 75#p214275
Quote:

This makes me wonder about all the rocky worlds including Vesta.
https://spectrum.ieee.org/altarock-ener … rmal-wells
Quote:
AltaRock Energy Melts Rock With Millimeter Waves for Geothermal Wells The Seattle-based company received an ARPA-E grant to test and scale its technologyMARIA GALLUCCI19 FEB 20203 MIN READ
Quote:
“Today we have an access problem," says Carlos Araque, CEO of Quaise, an affiliate of AltaRock. “The promise is that, if we could drill 10 to 20 km deep, we'd basically have access to an infinite source of energy."

4 Vesta has a dusting of Carbonaceous materials on its surface but is very volcanic itself.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4_Vesta
Quote:

Vesta (minor-planet designation: 4 Vesta) is one of the largest objects in the asteroid belt, with a mean diameter of 525 kilometres (326 mi).[10] It was discovered by the German astronomer Heinrich Wilhelm Matthias Olbers on 29 March 1807[6] and is named after Vesta, the virgin goddess of home and hearth from Roman mythology.[20]

So, with the drilling method, if you can get down 10 to 20 km for Earth, maybe you could reach the core. At the core the gravitation would be about ~0 +/- some small amount of microgravity.

The further down you drilled, the lower the rate of accumulation of rock pressure per km you descend. So, as you go down the increase in rock pressure does not rise in a linear fashion but falls off along the way.

There is also 16 Psyche where this may work.

List of exceptional asteroids: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e … _asteroids
Some are 'S' (Stony Types). I guess other types could be drilled, but then if you warm them inside they may flood. Also, the rock may not be as strong and stable.

Just a curious notion, could a massively drilled system of tunnels hold an air pressure without doors? On Vesta you would be drilling down >250 km, so that would be how deep the air might be.

In reality, however you would put in many doors, I am sure, so redundant that serious leaks would be very unlikely.

I guess for some cases gravity trains might work for transportation.

Stony Asteroids are typically less desired, but being in the asteroid belt getting organic chemicals from other asteroids should not be that hard. Various metals and silica should be plentiful, as several methods exist to process them. But if you get down to the core you could really get some stuff.

Maybe Vesta will have too much rock pressure, but there are several other smaller stony asteroids.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-09-30 19:46:55)

Void · 2023-09-30 20:19:27

Jumping back to Mars: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 81#p214281
Quote:

Quote:
Steve Stewart
Member
From: Kansas (USA)
Registered: 2019-09-21
Posts: 124
Email Website
Void post #72
For Mars, we might suppose to reach liquid aquifers.
Yes, I think so too. Even if the surrounding area (walls/ceiling/floor) wasn't an aquifer, but had 5% to 10% ice in it, I would think it would thaw. If you look at the images in #70 with the frost line, and imagine that being rock/gravel/sand, with ice, I would think when the area inside of the red dashed line thawed, and turned to water it would run downward. I would think each segment could retrieve water by simply drilling a hole in the floor and installing a sump pump. It seems like we could retrieve quite a bit of water that way. Maybe not enough for rocket fuel, but enough to keep the plants watered, and enough for humans to drink.
Of course, that could be dependent on location and how deep you go. Valles Marinera shows a Hydrogen signature the size of Holland. We don't know what the nature of that is, ice or brine or Hydrated minerals, but your method would get water in any case, and that location is about as temperate as Mars gets.
https://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration … and_Canyon Image Quote:
It is in Candor Chaos, sort of a wide space in the canyon.
While it is a rift valley, I believe that water floods and lava flows have also helped to carve it so lava tubes may not be out of the question. The lava is likely to have come from the Tharsis region where the big shield volcanoes are.
This seems to support the lava notion: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 7314000316
Quote:
A network of lava tubes as the origin of Labyrinthus Noctis and Valles Marineris on Mars
So, for the rift valley, I am going to venture a hope that lava tubes and skylights have been covered over with wind drive sediments over time. If so, then perhaps they can be carved of the sedimentary deposits to give a useful lava tube near where the Hydrogen signature are.
Done

Steves work looks good to me, and to converge with my notions to some extent.
Tharsis Region: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tharsis
Quote:

What I think may be available is lots of lava tubes, sedimentary rock, water is high mountains to launch things from to orbit.

For that of course mass drives come to mind, but also SSTO ships that burn Liquid Carbon Monoxide.

Looks like it might work that way.

For the shield volcano's, may there be a Swiss cheese layering of lava tubes into the interior of the mountains?

If you did have the water in the Candor Chaos then created Methane could be piped all around the area to provide Methane for rocket fuel and from which water could be derived.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-09-30 20:30:14)

Void · 2023-10-01 09:53:38

I think it is important to again think about recently established dogma.

The Moon is so dry that unless ice can be found at the poles, it would be too expensive to have activities on the Moon is one of them. This would be because the cost of space is $10,000 a pound to orbit, at least. (That was the case when this dogma emerged). Also, it seems that certain parties went all out to describe the Moon as "Bone Dry", whatever that is supposed to mean. (It implies dead, I think).

Various parties wanted the space effort ended but allowed expensive pork space for the jobs and power and money to divert from taxes to favored entities, I guess.

That cost restriction has loosened to some extent as per Falcon 9. Falcon 9 and Falcon Heavy offer hope, but the Starship(s) may offer enough that perhaps even if the Moon is "Bone Dry" it will still be worthing doing the Moon with advancements in technology.

And so, I do attempt to advance such technology in a small way, I hope and there are many others who seem to be attempting to do more.

Another thing that is not quite a dogma, as it has been real up to now is that boiloff of Hydrogen was an impossible task to solve. Blue Origin seems to be on top of that with two ideas. Their original idea was to route boiloff to a fuel cell, and so the output would be energy and water. At least you recovered some value with that.

Their latest is actually active cooling I believe. So, with that, I think that it would not be out of the question for a ship to bring tanked Hydrogen to the Lunar surface to "Water" it. That stands as an economic "Maybe", as other schemes may work better.

In the event that Oxygen is manufactured in large amounts on the Moon, then a ship may land with fuel enough to take off again, but only the Oxygen needed to land. Then it would be filled with enough Oxygen to ascend to orbit and also enough to land again.

So, fuel depots in Lunar orbit would be just that fuel depots not propellant depots, (Although they might carry some reserves of Oxygen).

The reason I have considered the idea of landing assists and "Chain" cargo, is I want to make it possible for there to be a surplus of fuel for landing. If a ship has enough to land with cargo and no landing assistance, then if you do assist it and use some kind of "Chain" cargo system, you can perhaps create a situation where the ship lands with excess fuel, and you could tap a bit of that off, as makeup organics for a Lunar Base. It would be organics to replace water and Carbon depletion, and also to perhaps expand the base.

Water at a Lunar base could be tightly recycled, so that much replacement would not be needed for human use. I think that was not anticipated in the 60's and 70's either.

Carbon dropped from a landing ship may offer a path to CO2 as a coolant or even heat engine fluid, and also CO as a fuel or even Carbon as a fuel.

Humanoid and other robots should greatly disrupt the dogma as they are likely to be productive without the same life support needs of humans. And of course, they might also allow human telepresence from the Earth to the Moon.

As far as day/night power concerns on the Moon, I think a two-speed reality might be useful where you only do high energy things in the Lunar day, and low energy things at night.

So, it is very hard to get rid of dogma. People have a very bad tendency to discard new innovations and to circle back to old dogma. I see it over and over again.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-10-01 10:24:44)

Void · 2023-10-01 18:04:55

Well, I think I may be approaching the fine adjustments on the notion of chain as cargo to the Moon.
I guess this is not plagiarism as I am advertising someone's product: https://www.zoro.com/mr-chain-15-6-38-m … lsrc=3p.ds Image Quote: Quote:

Key Features
Application: Outdoor or Indoor
Size: 1 1/2 in
Finish: Gloss
Material: Polyethylene
Length: 200 ft
For Use With: Light Duty and Medium Duty Stanchions
Length (Straight Wireway): 200 ft

Polyethylene: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyethylene
Quote:

Chemical
Polyethylene consists of nonpolar, saturated, high-molecular-weight hydrocarbons. Therefore, its chemical behavior is similar to paraffin. The individual macromolecules are not covalently linked. Because of their symmetric molecular structure, they tend to crystallize; overall polyethylene is partially crystalline. Higher crystallinity increases density and mechanical and chemical stability.

So, I don't have strong skills in chemistry, but I do know I want a method to deliver Carbon and Hydrogen to the surface of the Moon in the form of plastic chain. This looks like it might work.

Of course, it will deteriorate in prolonged presence on the surface of the Moon, but the intention is to retrieve it perhaps into a lava tube base, soon after the drop.

While plastics as they are could have many uses on the Moon, decomposing this plastic could contribute to making water, CO2, and Methane. While you could soft land any of these substances to the Moon, I want to hard land the chains, they are not particularly useful as chains after the drop so some level of damage to the chains should be OK.

This potential to hard land the chain objects, is in reality a form of lithobraking. But I consider that this can be done within the limits where the delivered material is still what the material was upon dropping, and that it will not splash (Scatter, Bounce) so far that it is not economic to retrieve.

There is dangle and there is drop as methods. In each case you have to find a way to avoid rocket plumes melting the chains.

In Dangle, the chains stay attached to the ship all they way down but they dangle below the ship and land on the ground before the ship does.

In Drop, of course you drop the chains from a height. Drop could be on flat ground or on an angled hillside perhaps.

Pause............To continue in a following post.

Last edited by Void (2023-10-01 19:08:53)

tahanson43206 · 2023-10-01 19:00:04

For Void re #1337

You post many interesting ideas.

SearchTerm:Chain as lithobraking carrier of supplies of carbon and hydrogen

Your idea seems useful for the Moon.

it seems (to me at least) ** really ** useful for Mars.

An expedition planner might save a great deal of precious mass delivered to Mars to ensure a safe return flight, if the ingredients for Methane were already onsite, ready for retrieval with a forklift.

As you will no doubt recall, Dr. Zubrin imagined landing a supply of Hydrogen to make methane for a trip home. Your solution would put the elements he needs right in a handy pile, all ready to be melted down and made into fuel, while Oxygen is pulled from the atmosphere.

Can you do the same thing with Oxygen (somehow) and perhaps other useful elements as well?

(th)

Void · 2023-10-01 19:03:26

Well, the delivery method would be interesting for Mars, indeed. The structures to support it might be hosted in the leeward side of the ship, perhaps.

The method may also make sense as to deliver special alloys of metals that can be hard to some by in certain developmental phases of establishment to Mars.

I think that in the case of the Moon and Mars Oxygen is at hand, even more so for Mars as if you have a nuclear reactor on the ship you may get it from atmospheric CO2, prior to the human landings.

I am familiar with Dr. Zubrin's notions and think they were good ones. This would perhaps be a reasonable substitute. But the Moon appears to lack Carbon and Hydrogen as convenient. So, this might work well for the Moon.

But for Mars, it may be of value also even though the Atmosphere has plenty of Carbon, but plastics use in 3D printers, and for other industrial purposes, would be valuable on both the Moon and Mars.

Going rest, maybe a little more tonight, maybe not.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-10-01 19:08:23)

Void · 2023-10-01 19:54:51

So, this ship would not carry it's cargo in a cargo compartment, but outside on its sides.

How much plastic chain? 150 Tons? 220 Tone? I really don't know what the ship is capable of. It might be a variation of Starship, without a cargo cabin at all.

Dangle has its complications as per the chain getting under the landing feet, or the rocket plumes melting the chain. There are workarounds for those things.

For Drop, you could drop it on a flat surface, without dust, and it could possibly serve as its own shock absorber, as the fist impact end piles up and absorbs shock for the later arriving parts of the chain.

You may drop it on an inclined surface, and that might have interesting results.

You might drop it into dust pilled up on the Monn or into sand dune materials on Mars.

I don't know if CO2 Snow is fluffy or not ever, but you might drip it into that.

There is a lot to learn about this.

Of course the higher you drop it from the less likely that you can retrieve a useful material.

But with it all dropped, the ship can land without the weight of a cargo on board, so the lees can be weaker, and the landing thrust does not have to be as powerful. Less propellants consumed, I would hope. You may even have an assistive landing pad to land on that would allow the ship to land at a higher speed than normal, to save propellants.

Anyway, I think it is worth some consideration in the future.

Done.

I think this really does diddle with the rocket equation a bit. Cheating in class tends to be wrong, but it is not wrong to diddle reality if you can increase productivity of output to the use of the human race and their purposes, which might be good sometimes.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-10-01 20:03:12)

tahanson43206 · 2023-10-01 20:05:36

For Void re current interesting chain subtopic ...

As a reminder, the benefit of your original idea for Mars is the convenience of having a supply of ingredients to make fuel right in a handy pile, if your theory of how this would work is correct. The chain will encounter Carbon Dioxide molecules on the way down, and these will be obliged to get out of the way of the chain, which will cause them to become upset and irritated. These molecules will impose punishment upon the chain for intruding upon their space. My concern is that the disturbance of the peaceful CO2 molecules will result in damage to the chain. Do you have friends in high places who can run simulation software, to try out your idea?

(th)

Void · 2023-10-01 20:26:40

It is hard to say what the terminal velocity for chain would be on Mars. You could put a parachute on one end.

I hope you understand that I do not intend that the chains be deployed during atmospheric heating of entry, but probably not that far above the surface, or even as the "Dangel" method.

For Mars this is going to be more complicated than for the Moon.

The dangers of dropping from too high is that the chain will shatter and bounce too far to collect. And be far away from the landing zone.

I would start modest, with just the dangle method where the chains are not released form the ship but simply dangle down. It might be that the ship would spin a bit to spin them away from the ship. But of course, this would complicate landing.

Once you had the dangle method figured out you might start trying to use the drop methods, with greater and greater altitudes until you find the point where the best returns would be.

There will need to be a lot of exploration on this to see what the practical limits are.

But the fact that you eject the cargo, allows you to have weaker and lighter landing legs, and that along with the lack of cargo on the ship, will reduce the amount of thrust the ship must use to land and that would save propellants.

Done.

No, I have no one to model this for me.

But I think it is a fun concept to consider.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-10-01 21:14:46)

tahanson43206 · 2023-10-01 20:50:08

For Void re delivery of hydrogen and carbon to Mars surface in the form of chain.

Like so many of your ideas, this one seems (to me at least) to have merit, but it comes into existence in an obscure corner of the Internet, far from the busy centers of commerce and activity. This forum is like a general store of long ago, in a sleepy small town. A few steady residents drop in from time to time, and check out the notices on the bulletin board.

Your chains need to be delivered to Mars from orbit, to eliminate the expense of fuel to lower them gently to the ground.

I understand and appreciate your offer to lower the mass pulling the landing craft toward Mars, by dropping off payload at lower altitudes.

That suggestion in itself seems (to me at least) to have merit. However, with your original balloon payload idea, this one seems to have potential to be extended, but unfortunately, the only visitors to the general store are missing your carefully written notes, because the news-of-the-day notes keep piling up from other regulars.

Please consider designing your chain so it is lighter with respect to volume (ie, less dense) so that the CO2 molecules will be able to slow the descending chain without melting it. I have no idea what density might yield this result, but if you ** did ** have friends in high places with CFD software at hand, they might be able to model this interesting problem. The chain might do better to spread out in flight, so that the maximum possible broadside aspect is seen by the CO2 molecules who are going to be inconvenienced in any case. The more you can spread out the irritation, the less impact it will have on the chain. The CO2 molecules will get over the disturbance. What we want is for the chain to arrive intact at the surface, where it will land with a thump to be sure, but I suspect it will be gooey soft at that point and more likely to resemble taffy than a chain.

No matter! It will cool quickly, and be all the easier for a robot to collect.

(th)

Void · 2023-10-01 21:11:47

My primary concept at this time is for the Moon, so there the problems are different.

Granted eventually something similar might be possible for Mars.

A fair Number of people do read here and it might be that someone will innovate a variation of what may be in any of these topics.

But just now I am recovering from a mini-stroke, so I cannot afford to seek stress.

So, while this place can be entertaining and a hobby for me, I do not want to make it into a burden of stress.

Done.

For Mars perhaps a ribbon of plastic? A bit more atmospheric drag possible with that perhaps.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-10-01 21:13:17)

Void · 2023-10-02 11:32:01

For now, I sort of want to support a small number of people on the Moon. If in a lava tube then they might be well protected. Samples from around the Moon might be brought to them by automation to analyze.

They also might be able to support a large population of robots of various sort. There presence on the Moon would be a test in itself of human reaction to the gravity, which may be useful. Brining in the organic materials for such a small group should not be that much of an expense as to prohibit it, not if Starship works out. And they may indeed also be available from the poles of the Moon.

Som day billions of people might live on the Moon, but not yet, until much research and sufficient organics resources are obtained.

Done.

.

Void · 2023-10-03 07:29:43

In this topic, I look at many worlds in our solar system. Back to Mars!

Calliban stimulated this: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 68#p214368 Posts #20 and #21:
Quote #20:

Calliban
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From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 2,830
Email
From discussions in the past, the atmosphere is too thin to provide enough lift until supersonic speeds are reached. Such a craft would need an excessively long runway and landing especially would be dangerous. So I think aeroplanes would be impractical on Mars.
For remote locations, the transportation system needs to avoid investment in infrastructure. That means no roads, railways or runways. The idea of a solar powered wagon train seems most practical, albeit slow. Whether or not it will be possible to engineer a tire that can withstand the ebrasion resulting from driving over thousands of km of unimproved regolith is an open question. The vehicle needs to be slow to avoid kicking up dust that then gets into wheel bearings and other moving parts.
A Mars base would benefit from some kind of expendible, sub-orbital rocket system that can deliver emergency supplies to anyone in trouble on the planet. By this I mean a temporary inflatable hab, with enough air, food and water to keep people alive until help can arrive.

Quote #21:

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,219
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Calliban,
My own notion is robotic sub-orbital craft that would have CO and Oxygen as propellants. Then you would have landing pads all over the planet. These could transport things like Hydrogen or Water, or Plastics from landing pad to landing pad.
The ISS has shown that water can be tightly recycled. So, bringing small amounts of replacement water to "Dry Bases" could go a long way.
The more "Gas Stations" you have with landing pads the more places of refuge there would be for stranded persons. And the craft I am speaking of might deliver rescue resources to the needy and might even fly them back to a landing pad if necessary. Your "Covered Wagons" could fit into this as well.
A base/landing pad would likely have solar power resources + Chemical resources with fuel cells, plus a store of water, plus some food, and likely a basic emergency shelter that could be pressurized.
I like it this way because CO + Oxygen as propulsive method does not need water, so they can be almost anywhere.
And although most would be robot craft, you also could have hoppers that are made for humans to travel. They could refuel and emergency land at the base/landing pads if necessary, and to refill on propellants.
I believe that the wilderness of Alaska uses air travel quite a lot, so maybe it would be good for the wilderness of Mars.
Done

Such suborbital craft could do seasonal migrations. Where one hemisphere might go into winter, they would have migrated to more hospitable places on the planet in a seasonal way.

Where landing pads/bases would be place as would be convenient on a trade routes, as necessary as well, and items of value like mineral or water resources, and perhaps lava tubes.

Martian Lava Tubes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martian_lava_tube

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-03 07:36:15)

Void · 2023-10-03 19:13:04

Well, today I am into Lava Tubes on Mars again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martian_lava_tube
Image Quote:
Quote:

Transverse cross-section of a martian lava tube

We can hope that the floor of the lava tube is relatively flat, but as on the Moon I want to put fill inside the lava tubes to make road like surfaces and also heat storage devices.

So, compressing Martian soil into bricks seems to be possible: https://www.sciencealert.com/it-turns-o … ng%20agent. Quote:

Scientists from the University of California have made a brick-like rock from the closest thing to Martian soil – a simulant they created and named Mars-1a.

Compressing the soil at high pressures forced it to form a solid that is "similar to dense rock". Nanoparticulate iron oxide, common in Martian soil, acted as a bonding agent.

https://www.theverge.com/2017/4/27/1543 … n-missions
Image Quote:
Quote:

Photo by David Baillot, materials processed by Brian J. Chow and Yu Qiao

Quote:

Simulated Mars soil can be packed together into a solid brick-like material — without needing any added ingredients to hold it together. That might mean real Martian soil could be easily used as a tool for building structures like habitats on the Red Planet’s surface, which could make human missions to Mars less complicated to pull off.

So, inside of lava tubes you might additively create roads that are also thermal storage devices, provided you embedded ductwork or pipes into the packed materials.

You might also entertain the building of shelter, perhaps something along the lines of what Steve Stewert has worked on, and also other concepts.

Getting water for these lava tubes may have several solutions.

Also, I anticipate that there will be a desire to get the perchlorate out of the soil.

Anyway, I think this is a pretty big one to try to build on. I want to sleep on it some and see where this might go.

Done

While this might not provide enough Hydrogen for rocket fuel, it might get enough water to provide make-up water for a number of humans in a lava tube working with a large number or robots. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ … system.png Quote:

Mars soil contains a huge amount of water, reports NASA's Curiosity rover
If you heat up a cubic foot of Mars soil, you can harvest around two pints (one liter) of water. According to new data returned by NASA's Curiosity rover, this isn't just a one-off lucky find, either: It seems that most of the dirt on Mars harbors large amounts of water. This is very exciting news for future human exploration of Mars, because it's prohibitively difficult to transport water from the surface of Earth to the Red Planet -- and, in one fell swoop, it also makes the eventual terraforming and colonization of Mars a lot more feasible.

So, now if you have a cart that has a microwave, and penetrates the ground, you could have a fan the sucks the vapors to a pump that pressurizes it to a condensation.

If like the ISS, you can recycle 98% of your water, then you don't need that much make-up water per person. Probably recycling could be made tighter, but might not be necessary if the cart robot can collect enough water.

Also important is does the water replenish from the Martian atmosphere? I bet it will.

Now, for Rockets, if you have CO as you fuel, or possibly even hot Carbon, then you don't need that much water, and you might be able to set up a base almost anywhere.

And then this makes me wonder about Hot Carbon powered cars, using Liquid Oxygen.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-04 08:33:44)

Void · 2023-10-04 08:38:09

A heat storage device of the type in the last post could be for hot or cold. Concentrated sunshine for hot, and Martian night or seasonal cold for the cold.

I don't think they would necessarily interfere with each other that much. For either of them, perhaps CO2 could be the working fluid.

It might be that you could use a heat engine off of that temperature differential. Because of the Martian dust storms, I would anticipate some use of nuclear reactors to provide a more guaranteed life support for humans. Of course, during the dust storm any other energy consuming devices, or activities would be curtailed to a great extent, I expect.

A lava tube might be a good place to begin penetrating the undergrounds of Mars, once it was built up enough. Last night I was reading that it appears that Mars had two large volcanic periods. One at 1.7 billion years ago and one at 3.6 billion years ago. So, probes that have looked at this underground seem to see that two layers of lava have a layer of sedimentary rock between them. I am thinking that that situation might allow the tunneling in the sedimentary rock easier than the lava layers.

I am sure that if that is true it is true for some locations not all. Well here is a bit of support for what I have said: https://www.sciencealert.com/insight-ha … th-of-200m
Quote:

The seismometer on board InSight – called SEIS or the Seismic Experiment for Interior Structure – points to a shallow sedimentary layer sandwiched between hardened rocks resulting from lava flows, going down to a depth of around 200 meters or about 650 feet.

So, not quite what I wanted, I have been searching this morning but don't have the best information.

In any case if you do have softer rock under a lava flow with a lava tube you have inhabited, then you might punch though the lava and get to sedimentary rocks, which might include volcanic dust deposits, and I suppose wind and water influences from the past.

So, possibly lots of underground potential.

Very optimistically I am supposing that there could be deep ground water or vapor pockets that could be drilled to for water beneath all of this.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-10-04 09:20:29)

Calliban · 2023-10-04 09:20:00

Martian regolith appears to be a good thermal insulator, as fines consists of dry, dessicated clay particles. Your heat source could be a solar collector, gathering heat that is stored in a container filled with hot rock and insulated with a layer of dry fines. Your cold source would be flat plate radiator panels. Using the cold of night, CO2 would be compressed and stored as liquid in a tank. Power recovery would pass the LCO2 into a boiler, superheating the CO2 to high temperature and pressure. The high pressure gas would then pass through a gas turbine, raising mechanical power. As CO2 is a dense gas with high molecular weight, the turbine would be very compact.

Void · 2023-10-04 10:31:38

There should likely be many tricks to discover. I appreciate your professional contribution to this Calliban.

Then if we had a packed earth "Road" with piping in it, inside of a lava tube, could we use that as a condenser? I think that your model had exhaust to the atmosphere, or did I misunderstand?

Such a "Road" might also be cooled by nighttime cold. Even if cold, it would still be possible to use it as a surface to drove over, walk over. It might also allow condensation of ice, but that might not be desired.

While lose dust is insulation, I anticipate that packed Martian dirt may be reasonably conductive. Also, a "Patch" either hot or cold would have the bedrock as thermal mass as well. I am in addition to the generation of power, looking at seasonal storage of heat and cold.

Done.

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