Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Void · 2023-09-09 16:01:39

I am having alternate thoughts as for a landing platform method.

For this, Stoke Space has a ship shape that I like: https://www.stokespace.com/rocket/
Image Quote:

Get rid of the legs, and land it on a woopie cushion.

Of course, I intend padding, and air cushioning of some sorts.

Where to put the engines and what type of engines though is a question. I don't want to burn the woopie cushion.

The ship will also benefit if some method of protection from "Water Hammer" of the propellant could be achieved.

Water Hammer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_hammer
I am thinking gas vapor filled bladders to take some of the shock. Probably in the bottom of the tanks.
Also, I am thinking that if the "Can" were to be dented, we would want it not to rupture. That would probably wreck the ship for future use, but might prevent an explosion.

In this service, I anticipate that the ship would have minimal Oxygen upon landing, so a smashed can syndrome might avoid a rupture.

I kind of favor the engines being near the nose. You could have an engine that points up as well for maneuvering when in an orbital or suborbital situation.

I think it could be possible that the ship could land without the shock landing pad, as it would have enough propellants, but if the computers felt that a shock landing pad landing was optimal, then the ship would come down at an appropriate higher speed, to conserve propellants, particularly Methane.

And yes, it would be nice if this shock landing pad could be upgraded to be a launch catapult as well, somehow.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-09 16:22:37)

Void · 2023-09-10 07:46:09

Let's sort of call the item described in the prior post as a "Drum" shock absorber.

My dream objective is to 1) Reduce the propellants needed for a landing and maybe get rid of the dry mass of landing legs. 2) Assertively provide 1% to 10% of the launch energy of a locomotive to a low Lunar orbit from a ground installation.

I seem to recall that the Saturn 5 had a catapult that gave it just a tiny boost, but that was needed to get the machine off of the pad and to go into it's acceleration progression. I recall that, but cannot find evidence on the internet.

Anyway, I have had a couple of thoughts on the matter of a somewhat mechanical catapult/Drum receiver method(s).

At this point the notion is to visualize possible mechanics of methods. I am tending towards basic metal machines utilizing inertia and gravity.
But they may "Wind themselves up" for the catapult notion using electrical power.

A balance beam setup is useful to imagine a device which might do something for us. But in the practical world it is a beginning illustration. We might hope to do better.

It seems that this is as good as I am going to get to explain.

https://www.britannica.com/technology/m … al-balance

This could be a visual aid for visualization: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pyramid_of_Giza

Image Quote: balance.jpg?w=300

Our landing Drum event might happen on the left side, and that change of inertia can possibly be stretched out though time, by swiftly adding additional weight to the right-side pan, so the drum would flex with each weight added. To do a mass driver event you would drop weights sequentially onto the right side to fling the left side payload upward. Of course, this is not likely to be practical in reality so far, but illustrates some basic thinking about desired results.

This could be a visual aid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pyramid_of_Giza
Image Quote:

No, we are not doing ancient aliens in this post

But imagine that that fulcrum is a crater rim or mountain on the Moon.

Our "Balance" is part railroad, part cable trolly.

The tracks run up two opposing sides of the fulcrum, and the cable loops over the apex of the fulcrum. Our receiver drum is on the "Left" side, and our physical resistance is on the right side. Imagining a train car as the resistance, it has brakes, and can apply them in a controlled way to distribute the resistance to the landing over time to extend the "Impact" time distributing inertia change over time.

To do a launch you add weight to the "Left" side while the brakes are on, and then release the brakes.

Of course, the above description is only one way to do it. I am trying to give the best visualization possible to stimulate the minds of those who might bring this to practicality in some way.

Gravity tricks are not the only way to do this some other effects might be added in.

It is kind of nice though, maybe a playground for the mind.

Done.

Of course, we should not strain ourselves too much towards the impossible. It might just be a good start to build whoopie cushion landing pads that a ship could land on without legs.

Prior Post: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 31#p213431
Quote:

Image Quote:

Remove the legs and put the landing thrusters along the upper side of the ship. If you have swept an area clean of sharp rocks or rocks in general, then you might land this on fine dust regolith, but you have to get close to zero speed, so you must use the full amount of propellants. There could be a small amount shock absorption in the soil and in the curved nature of the structure itself.

If you put Styrofoam under the soil, then you would have more shock absorption and might choose to land just a bit harder to conserve propellants.

If you make a full-on drum/whoopie cushion pad You might land even harder. Pretty much what you are doing is distributing the impact over time, or at least that is a part of the trick.

The Pseudo-Farts from the whoopie cushion could be sent to a Pseudo-Fart collecting bag for instance

Of course, springs are also an option.

In any case get rid of the landing gear and handle the impact with ground devices compatible with the impact event.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-10 08:30:13)

Void · 2023-09-10 13:29:55

So, for spacecraft boosting I do not think I like magnetic mass drivers. I do like using electricity to store mechanical energy for a boost. Gravity is said to move at the speed of light so lifted weights might be one way to store such mechanical energy.

So, perhaps gravity energy storage, a gravity battery? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_battery

But instead of converting the energy discharge to electricity, I would much prefer mechanical linkages to the boost process.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-10 13:32:53)

Void · 2023-09-10 13:57:36

I have attempted this now:

The current Starship types will be needed first to set up infrastructure, but I think that later the above might suggest other methods.

It is possible that eventually the ship building process may be on the Moon. But for now one idea is that the Super Heavy could boost this to orbit.

An odd thing to think about is that the engines on the MoonShip could fire immediately as launch commences from Stage '0'.

#2 & #3 would be assistive propulsion, and #1 is quite a question as to why you would fire it at all during assent through the Earth's atmosphere.

So far I have the notions of lubricating the passage through the atmosphere, for all three, although I do not know if that is of any benefit at all. There would be much to learn.

#1 might push a lubricant gas out of it, but as I have said, I don't know if any benefit can be had from that at all at any level in the atmosphere. My thinking so far is "Maybe".

#2 & #3 could be used to "Lubricate" also but as I have said I don't know if that can work.

But #2 & #3 can help to lift the stack and finish the 2nd stage to orbit. Also, they may help to remove condensate from the outside of the rocket, but I think vibration already does a good job at that.

Of course this removes hot staging, but perhaps some type of force could be generated to substitute for that.

Perhaps air collected on the way up could do a pneumatic pressurization. Maybe even a explosion of that and fuel?

Don't know if that would be wise at all.

So, that is what I am thinking about just now.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-10 14:10:49)

Void · 2023-09-11 07:32:30

I have tried to stay somewhat close to what Starship and similar methods. Also, mechanical devices to assist those ships are also of interest, landing pads, and even mechanical catapults. This might be able to supply Oxygen to relatively local space. Also materials/raw materials to similar places from the Moon.

Matter and energy projectors would be another way to supply resources into local space.

Returning to shipping, the idea of extracting Oxygen and solids separately is one method but transporting Oxides of substances may be easier, provided you can then extract Oxygen and processed materials from those.

Lunar Regolith is of course oxides. But not particularly magnetic, I believe and a mixture that may not be proportioned to needs in orbits. So, to me this suggests that regolith processed on the surface of the Moon, could be divided into things wanted to transport into orbit, and the other parts not wanted there that it might be hoped could be fashioned into structure on the Moon.

I am drifting towards the Manufacture of Magnetite, as I think it might be of interest both for shipping in Moon ships, and possibly being projected from matter projectors like electric mass drivers.

Magnetite: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetite
Quote:

Magnetite is a mineral and one of the main iron ores, with the chemical formula Fe2+Fe
3+
2
O4. It is one of the oxides of iron, and is ferrimagnetic;[6] it is attracted to a magnet and can be magnetized to become a permanent magnet itself.[7][8] With the exception of extremely rare native iron deposits, it is the most magnetic of all the naturally occurring minerals on Earth.[7][9] Naturally magnetized pieces of magnetite, called lodestone, will attract small pieces of iron, which is how ancient peoples first discovered the property of magnetism.[10]
Magnetite is black or brownish-black with a metallic luster, has a Mohs hardness of 5–6 and leaves a black streak.[7] Small grains of magnetite are very common in igneous and metamorphic rocks.[11]
The chemical IUPAC name is iron(II,III) oxide and the common chemical name is ferrous-ferric oxide.[12]

So, if you carry or project the substance into orbits, then you have at least Iron and Oxygen to extract from it.

I must leave, but will pick this up in the next post I expect.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-11 08:01:32)

Void · 2023-09-11 09:09:46

In the last post I was looking into the utility of Magnetite on the Moon and space. I think it is worth considering.

There could be some on the Moon in places: https://www.ndtv.com/offbeat/study-expl … ce-3586152 Quote:

This Article is From Dec 07, 2022
Study Explains Strange Magnetic Anomalies On Moon's Surface
Researchers examined lunar material brought back to Earth by China's Chang'E 5 spacecraft in December 2020 and discovered magnetite particles.
OffbeatEdited by Anoushka SharmaUpdated: December 07, 2022 6:41 pm IS

But it may be possible to generate Magnetite from Iron on the Moon.

About Mass Drivers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_driver
Quote:

One possible drawback of the mass driver is that it has the potential to send solid reaction mass travelling at dangerously high relative speeds into useful orbits and traffic lanes. To overcome this problem, most schemes plan to throw finely-divided dust. Alternatively, liquid oxygen could be used as reaction mass, which upon release would boil down to its molecular state. Propelling the reaction mass to solar escape velocity is another way to ensure that it will not remain a hazard.

So, I am speculating on ejecting magnetite dust out of a Mass Driver from the Lunar Surface.

So, could there be a magnetic rubble pile of Magnetite in orbit of the Moon to receive the dust?

While I am excited about the notion of using ships like Starship to lift Oxygen and other materials to orbit, maybe they would be reserved to do other tasks, to maybe lift other materials?

A Magnetite Rubble Pile would be held together with a very powerful magnetic core.

The Magnetite would contain at least Iron and Oxygen, both useful in orbits, I would think.

Magnetite needs to be Magnetite, but dust particles containing Magnetite could have passenger substances attached.

A substance manufactured with such traits might resemble some types of Taconites.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taconite
https://www.britannica.com/science/taconite
Quote:

taconite, a low-grade siliceous iron ore composed of 20–30 percent magnetite that occurs in fine-grained banded iron formations. Taconite is mined primarily in the U.S., in the Mesabi Iron Range in Minnesota and the Marquette Iron Range in Michigan. Recovery of the iron requires fine grinding and concentration of iron-bearing phases, which in turn are formed into pellets suitable for blast furnaces. As high-grade deposits of iron ore have become depleted, taconite deposits have increased in importance as a source of iron ore.

As it happens I have familiarity to the technology concerning the processing of it as it was in the 70's and early 80's.

Magnetic particles in a Magnetic field may adhere to the magnet and each other in a sponge-like form. So, I would hope that magnetic rubble piles could be caused to orbit the Moon to receive the output of matter projectors, such as Mass Drivers and perhaps also Neumann Drives as matter projectors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_filings
Image Quote: Quote:

Iron filings on a magnet.

So, a magnetic rubble pile might be used to accrete output mass outputs from matter projectors on the surface of the Moon, or other worlds as well. The form will reestablish itself and grow. Too much heating might bring the materials above the Curie point, so that may limit the process.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curie_temperature
A table in the link gives 770 C as the Currie point for Iron.

A possible magnetic foundation object for the creation of an accretion magnetic dust rubble pile:
I have not shown the magnetic iron particles attached to it.

The North and South open ends allow heat to radiate out of it. Also, the rubble materials may provide radiation -protections for the interior as perhaps also the magnetic field of the device may do???

If electron beams (-) shoot out of the ends, that may give the object a net (+) charge. Not sure it can work that way.

Matter projected to the device may be impinged by the electron beams to help attract it as well.

A (+) charge on the device may help the dust to fluff up more?

It stands to reason that the collected dust could be used to propel spacecraft in some situations.

We may hope that it is of a nature that the solar wind may sweep it away out of the solar system when expelled from spacecraft.

Getting tired and have other things to do.

I see a possible progression of methods for the Moon.
1) Starship and things like it.
2) Duratives of Starship that can use landing an catapult assistances.
3) Matter projection from the Moon to receivers in orbit.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-11 10:24:45)

Void · 2023-09-12 15:47:29

I would like to mention ski jump landings on low gravity worlds. I will import a post. http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 09#p213509

Post #55 and #57 are mine.

I would require vastly more proof to actually believe in ancient aliens, but it can be a fun pass time.

https://nexusnewsfeed.com/article/unexp … ing%20zone.

OK, stupidly or intentionally I cannot get to the inclined runways down the Andes Mountains. My searches go to the Nasca Lines.

It does not matter if there were ancient aliens they have moved on, and we are left to wonder if we want decline runways for spaceships. For Earth I am inclined to say no, probably not. For low gravity worlds, it might be considered.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-12 15:55:17)

Void · 2023-09-14 19:52:39

Can we Para Terraform space orbits? Could LEO be considered a "World". That is a somewhat safe zone per radiation.

Another place which may be considered a "World", could be orbital locations in association with the obtaining of Lunar materials for life support including radiation protection.

And so, I will explain my thinking again about a variation of Starship(s) which may be of good use.

I recognize 3 sections:
1) Fairings, (Cargo Compartment, Crew Compartments).
2) Locomotive (Engines, propellant tanks, and devices supporting those).
3) Landing Gear.

I have mentioned some of these before, I have suggested using the "Locomotive" on the Moon. But could that be brought down though the Earth's atmosphere? Of course, it would likely need all four flaps put on it with actuation motors and control, and a satisfactory heat shield.

The heat shield may be a problem at the top of the Methane Tank, if the upper part of the ship were removed. That might require special methods.

While I understand that SpaceX is developing Starships that can bring down mass to the surface of the Earth, once that need is satisfied, is there any reason to bring the #1 Fairings and associated back down from orbit? Perhaps those have great value in orbit or on the Moon.

As for Landing Gear, for now I am focused on that for landing on the Moon. Mars can be rather different.

For Earth use the avoidance of using landing gear such as legs has been avoided to reduce dry mass, I think and complexity on the lander, while adding complexity to the catching tower.

If the upper section of the starship was made detachable in orbit, and particularly if it is compatible with being incorporated into space stations and Moon bases, I am inclined to ask if it is wise to bring the upper section back to Earth at this time? It may have greater value away from the Earth. If the upper section could be mass produced, it may make some sense up to a point of saturation of the need.

Now, in landing just the #2 Locomotive, then you probably need less propellants for the landing, which was propellants you had to bring to orbit in the first place. Expensive propellants. And if you bring less propellants for landing to orbit, then that may allow you to increase cargo.

Of course, modifications to the upper section to make them suitable for Space Stations and Lunar Bases, will add dry mass, but there is your extra cargo.

In converting the upper sections to be parts of Moon Bases and Space Stations, it may be that there could be some scrap materials, and that might be converted into propellant for Neumann Drives.

For Space Stations more associated with the Moon and also Moon Bases, Moon materials might also be brought in for radiation shielding and other needs.

I feel that is it important to think things like this over to make sure we have the best planning possible. Perhaps some of the materials in this post have value, we may see.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-14 20:10:25)

Void · 2023-09-14 20:28:01

A trailing thought about the just previous post.

While a method to protect the top of the "Locomotive", I think the top of the Methane tank will add complexity, if you are not going to bring the upper section above the "Locomotive" back down to Earth, it does not need a heat shield at all. It can be shiny metal, and that will be a cost savings and a Propellant Savings as well. And that is the curvier section which I think heat tiles are a bit weirder for.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-14 20:28:54)

Void · 2023-09-14 20:39:08

Pertaining to the last two posts, what about the flaps size and motors size for the flaps. If you are landing the Locomotive only, then I think they can be smaller. That also means less heat shield, less weight and less atmospheric drag on the way through the troposphere.

Less electric power needed to run the flaps as well.

This then would save on Propellant consumption, I feel. And that could be a good thing.

Done.

Void · 2023-09-16 13:11:34

I have been considering the possibility that our Moon may have a goldilocks property concerning the building of arch structures.

If we contrast Vesta and Ceres as too little, and Mars and Mercury as perhaps too much, then then sort of suggests itself. At least in the manner that I suggest arches.

I have also been considering arches that can have both compressive and tensile strength.

I have also been considering how "Father Nature" has been grinding up the crusts of worlds for us over very long periods of time. We expend energy to chew our food. Also, when I worked in a mining process you had to chew up the rock over several stages while in between stages you would do magnetic separations of concentrated iron and waste rock.

So, when we look at a world strewn with rubble maybe we should say thank you to the universe.

Without significant gravity, a stone arch has much less value in its compressive strength. For instance in zero gravity a stone arche does not seem to make much sense at all.

Something that ancient stone workers do not seem to have done is to encapsulate stones in metal shells. I think the metal would have been too expensive and also would tend to corrode in the Earths environment. Much less true on some other worlds, as per the corrosion, I think.

So, in addition to having compressive and tensile factors in such an arch, cables or even Carbon structure might be added to give even more tensile strength. And of course, if you are in a field of gravity, then the force of gravity may allow pressurizations inside some of the structures if that is desired.

I suppose it would be a matter of tastes, but I think the Moon could be pretty good for such architecture. Mars and Mercury also have potential but the Moon for once might score high relative to most other places, for this.

Basically, I am presuming that this could be true as it is speculated that the Moon could have very large Lava Tubes.

But these structures could be much superior to lava tubes, for the utility they might offer.

Solar focus sintering if possible but also microwaves apparently can also be used: https://blogs.esa.int/exploration/space … %20surface.

I love my country and culture, but it is a good thing that others exist, as I fear that our old space culture is locked into a degenerative loop. Many of our people have been fighting for 50 years to get out of it but the parasites are extremely effective in siphoning the energy off into nothing of value except their greed desires. Europeans, Japan, Russia, and China can be assistive in breaking the parasitic loops, I think. Unfortunately, the parasitic entities adore the situation where they have a money siphon, and they actually don't want space to be solved as their benefit is from the struggle, not the solutions.

We pick cotton, and that is where they want us to be, forever.

Now as far as 3D printing heat exchangers, rocket engines are created that way by more than one rocket company. While I think that arch structures on low g worlds may make habitats they might make very nice radiators as well. if the bottoms inside are metal, then you might print heat exchanger structure into them so that that they would serve as heat exchanger and strengthen the structure. The open ends of the arches could be pointed north and south, but that is not set in stone, even if the arches are set in stone, or stones set in metal.

As for the other surface where sunlight might impinge you may use passive heat rejection or active heat rejection such as moving panels that block the sunlight. I imagine the working fluids might be CO2, or Argon, or Nitrogen perhaps.

While a structure like this would serve as part of a heat engine, it also could be a radiation shield for something under it. The arche having some bulk may store cold from night to day. That may have greater value on Mars.

I am going to pause or be done, depending on my mood which may show up in the next hours.

Pause.................Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-16 15:03:34)

Void · 2023-09-16 21:05:12

Per the previous post, the notion of having the heat exchanger on the inside of an arch of some length, is to somewhat protect that delicate portion of the arch from impactors.

An arch in this case is more like a lava tube, having a length most suitable. if the ends are open, I expect heat to radiate out of it. But if you put reflectors on the outside, that at situated to both reflect light away from the arch, and perhaps even to conduct heat away, that also could promote cooling. So, then a radiator of sorts.

If on the other hand you choose to heat an arch of length, then you have a hot side. There could be many ways to do that. One would be to shine concentrated light from a collection of heliostats into the openings. You might even have windows of some sort to try to hold in infrared radiation.

In each case these arches could serve also for radiation protection. You could put habitats in either and both of them.

Habitat in it's simple form might be a space blanket, sort of. And a place for robots sensitive to radiation using vacuum insulation, it may be possible and so then to have lots of shop floor for robots. It is relatively easy to suppose using heat from a hot arch to make such a factory "tent" be suitable for robots even if it is a cold arch.

It would be very difficult for me to describe all the directions this might go. And I choose not to get lost in a particular cul-de-sac. This would make us loose many of the other possible options.

But we might imagine a 3-part collection of arches. One Hot One Cole, and one in the middle that might be pressurized for humans. We may hope to host factory production inside of all of these. Radiation protection and electrical power being available to each. And protection to a large extent from micrometeors and other impactors.

If you want glass greenhouses in addition that is not prohibited.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-16 21:17:13)

Void · 2023-09-16 21:33:45

Continuing, such arch shells might give some radiation protection or even all that is needed. But some GCR might get in though openings, even if they point at the poles. I would think that using magnetic protection might make sense to make the situation even better.

Done.

Void · 2023-09-18 15:39:37

This increases my hope that an electrical method might be possible to use on the Moon to collect water, and perhaps other molecules.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … 01bcb&ei=9 Quote:

An invisible force surrounding Earth may be creating water on the moon
Story by mguenot@businessinsider.com (Marianne Guenot) •
6h

Image Quote: AA1gTpeN.img?w=534&h=267&m=6
Quote:

A diagram shows areas where lunar water has been detected. Scientists think they've spotted a new way water could be made on the moon. Li, et al., 2023
© Li, et al., 2023

The truth is it should be possible to Generate temperatures on a condenser colder than the polar shadowed traps. And if molecules could be made to march towards an electron charge on that condenser, perhaps it would work. But I don't know the rate of accumulation. I suppose it could be proportional to current and voltage (Power).

Perhaps it will only be worth running at certain times according to the orientation of the Earth magnetic field to the Moon.

But if it did work it could allow bases in many places on the Moon.

It makes me feel better because disagreements if any between various amounts detected may be true. Everyone may be correct.

If this is discovered to be true, then perhaps eventually there can be a network of pipelines on the Moon. Probably not sending water but perhaps Methane to a user, and maybe CO2 back to the sources of water.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-09-18 15:49:20)

Void · 2023-09-20 20:00:29

Looking back on this post: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 79#p213479

Here is my next effort:

So, I am expecting that projected objects that are magnetic may be drawn to this and so impact it. I am hoping for a thick pad of magnetic particles to absorb the shock. (Other means of shock absorption could be provided).

In the upper right-hand corner, I indicate two magnetic systems working together to pull or repel each other, so that they both adhere to the inside or outside depending on their location. This then allows a robot that can bulldoze the magnetic particles, and also retrieve and add materials to and from the outside/inside of the device.

The magnetic particle bed may be sufficient to greatly improve the radiation situation inside the device.

And of course I am considering various methods to deliver partly magnetic or fully magnetic objects projected by various means from the Moons surface.

This is not a finished product, rather an attempt, working in a direction.

This could perhaps assertively catch a large object from a partial catapult, partial rocket system such as SpinLauch. It might also collect fine dust from a Neumann Drive if it uses Iron for instance and is used as a matter projector. (If it can be, and if the output would be magnetic). Also, if a more traditional mass driver could project magnetic dust, it might receive that. Magnetite might be good, as it contains Iron and Oxygen.

For dust we might tolerate a high differential speed, but not so much for large projectiles. Large projectiles may need to be having a lesser differential speed to the collector although the magnetic rubble pad, may cushion the impacts rather well. More discover will be needed.

One possibility for adding energy to the orbit of the collector would be to sail on the Solar Wind. The field could be throttled in size appropriately to make the orbital modifications, (I hope).

While solar power might be possible, I think this could be a good application for Nuclear Fission. The two open ends could be used to reject heat to the Universe.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-20 20:22:12)

Void · 2023-09-20 20:51:43

I suppose relating to the propulsion of the orbital collector, I will hope that the Neumann Drive used as a mass driver of Iron dust, may be able to impact its magnetic field, and even be drawn to the collector itself. I believe the ejection speeds may be quite good enough to raise and lower the object all while perhaps collecting Iron. But I don't think many other substances other than Iron can be sent that way to be collected, except perhaps if some electrostatic collection method could be added for non-magnetic projected dust.

But that is kind of a dream machine, if it would work. And then you might need larger projectiles to bring passenger substances up from the Moon to the collector. Don't know all the ins and outs yet of course.

If it can work.

So, the Neumann Drive could push it like a water hose pushing a balloon, perhaps. But yes, you could also perhaps use solar wind propulsion.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-20 20:52:52)

Void · 2023-09-21 10:09:04

An attempt at an atmosphere collector for a world with an atmosphere, in this case Venus is seen as a good potential, perhaps:

James Web and Parker Solar probe are perhaps examples of how you may have cold temperatures even if your machine is in sunlight. And so, the Planetary North and South skies may provide cold, if the cylinder has very good insulation.

The magnetic field may be much larger than what is indicated in the drawing and may reach into the plasma of the upper atmosphere of Venus. But it also may be pushed by the solar wind.

My thinking is that such a magnetic field could collect ionized molecules from the upper atmosphere. I believe that this is considered possible for a magnetic heat shield.

The grey glass envelope with an electron cloud inside of it may be cooled passively and/or actively to low temperatures. A coating of (+) ions on the outside of the envelope is desired, a sort of capacitive atmosphere, possibly even allowing some liquid phase, and very likely capable of a solid phase of various substances. To neutralize the ions, some electrons might be introduced into that collected material.

While some other methods might work, such as scraping frost off of the glass envelope and collecting that, I also am interested in a Piezoelectric plunger sort of pump, which might pump fluids gas or liquid to a pressurized containment.

I do not consider this to be refined and out of the box. If it works, lot of research will be needed, and more innovation will precede it working.

In this scheme the solar wind is supposed to add energy to the orbit of the device to offset the drag that lifting atmosphere will create.

I am currently confirming that these following videos are what I was after.

Terran Space Academy, maybe this is partly about magnetic heat shields: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgsJ94mkz2M
OK, that is the correct video, and mentions "Magnetoshell Shields" towards its end. But it remains questionable if my desire to collect atmospheric plasma from the upper atmosphere of Venus. If this could work it may well work for Mars and even the Moon.

For Earth and Mercury, different propulsion methods than the solar wind would be needed. But if it works for Venus, we also could use the solar wind to move the collected product outward in the solar system.

Isaac Arthur, has provided other notions in this video: https://www.reddit.com/r/IsaacArthur/co … ic_mining/

OK, Isaac Arthurs materials are somewhat supportive of what I am hoping for.

Done

Now again about the mining the Atmosphere of the Moon:

It is of course very thin, but it exists. However, if regolith is processed for building materials and materials to project with various matter projection methods, then Oxygen may be released, and it may retain by gravity for a time. If it gets too thick it may melt the polar ice and that might float away, also we might get terrible dust storms. It would also get in the way of projecting matter into orbits.

So, if you could skim the Oxygen off along with other materials, then you could manage the atmosphere as very thin, which is the correct choice.

So, creating an orbital ring of metals and ceramics might make sense eventually. This could have magnetic fields, and there could be magnetic field on the Moon itself. Sequentially manipulation of them could allow the ring to be spun as desired, and also it may be hoped to manage the interaction of the solar wind and the created thin atmosphere of the Moon to capture the solar wind into the atmosphere of the Moon, if possible, by various means, perhaps making water, it would be hoped.

Manipulating the visual of the Sun, Earth, and Moon, and ring, and magnetics in my mind is an overload. But I think it may be possible to get desirable results.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-21 11:54:41)

Void · 2023-09-22 10:29:02

To some extent this site serves as a bit of entertainment to me, and I would like to harness work from NASA to seek such entertainment.

I have been wondering about "Space Castles". This is a phrase Isaac Arthur has used to speak of large solar orbiting space stations, I believe.

While some have already considered "Cyclers" like the Aldrin Cycler, I am currently wondering about other notions for such a device. Where the Aldrin Cycler is a sort of human transport device, I am thinking more of small towns more or less, and their intentions being centered on their own little world. So, they may be nomadic and might alter orbital paths over time and be locked into one situation for a while and then change to another.

I think that developing all of the inner solar system and including asteroids and perhaps short period comets might fit into this as well. This article suggests some things to me about that: Quote:

Apr 8, 2021
Extreme Solar Sailing for Breakthrough Space Exploration
Artur Davoyan
University of California, Los Angeles

https://www.nasa.gov/directorates/space … ploration/
Image Quote: 2021_ph_ii_davoyan_graphic.png?itok=WQcY_dxH

I am thinking about the propulsion strengths:
1) Solar Propulsion very close to the sun.
2) Gravitational assist of Mercury, Venus, Earth, and Mars.
3) Asteroid belt Nuclear Fission propulsions of various sorts.

This article happens to have an image I like: https://www.naturalnews.com/2019-12-28- … avity.html Image Quote:

So, working with elliptical orbits that are close to the sun at Perihelion, and the Asteroid belt at Aphelion, you have two very powerful energy/Propulsion raw resources which could be turned into natural resources. In between those two are potential gravity boosts, some solar elliptical asteroids, and even some opportunities to use aerobraking for exchange methods. Also their may even be occasional possibility for ballistic capture of a Castle to any of the planets Mercury, Venus, Earth/Moon, and Mars.

The asteroid belt will be presumed to have fission resources, and propulsion resources. Probably water of large quantities, and also elements that might be used in Neumann Drives. https://neumannspace.com/ https://newatlas.com/neumann-ion-drive- … 3%20carbon https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index … ic=42920.0 Quote:

Pulsed Cathodic Arc Thruster (Neumann Drive)
« on: 05/13/2017 06:56 am »
Dr. Paddy Neumann here in Adelaide has set up a company called Neumann Space to develop a new type of ion drive called Pulsed Cathodic Arc Thruster (PCAT) or Neumann Drive. This uses the basic principles of an arc welder to generate thrust from just about any metallic material, with Magnesium giving the best performance. For details on how it works, visit the website at
http://neumannspace.com/science/
The drive has the world record for the highest Isp, reaching 144 km/s, although a more typical value is 110 km/s. Power efficiency is over 90% and it operates at voltages between 80 to 250 Volts, but the current is in the kilo Amp level. Neumann Space have bought space on the Airbus Defence and Space Bartolomeo platform on the ISS in order to test their drive. Their payload is called FAST (Facility for Australian Space Testing) and is scheduled for launch late next year. It will have two opposing thrusters in order to not affect the ISS and will run off the ISS 160 V power supply.
http://www.sciencealert.com/this-physic … ce-station
Check out his video showing the drive in action.

If we think of each castle as its own world and of its own importance, this might become very interesting.

These worlds would have variable solar energy resources, but also might have fission power. Granted, some method has to keep them civil as to not do damage to a planet or each other. But that is sort of where we are now.

At perihelion, extreme power to change orbits would exist, so a Castle could lock onto one planet or location in the asteroid belt and trade with that. Actually, in the asteroid belt, it would be able to interact with various asteroids at Aphelion.

We are often shown articles that talk about some new method to get to Mars in 2 weeks. But some have said if you have that just bring more stuff and don't go that fast.

While it is true that you could use mirrors to get sufficient energy even in the asteroid belt, from solar, a elliptical Castle would have some interesting capabilities. Of course solar energy would be cyclical, but at each end, Mercury, and the Asteroid belt you would have a potential source of raw materials that could also be propellants for Neumann Drives. At Mercury the propulsion demands are massive, but the solar resources are massive. And of course although you could use solar propulsions at the asteroid belt, Nuclear Fission, possibly powering a Neumann Drive(s) might make a lot of sense.

Actual accumulation of Mass to an Elliptical Castle would likely be done by slow boat Neumann Drive Robotic Drones. If it was desired to not make the things so big that they could severely damage planets in a crash, then these things could clone themselves, and normally not orbit in the plane of that planet. Being on the sun end of the journey it may be convenient to change orbital planes in order to align with a particular asteroid when the Castle got to that end of the orbit.

Human exchanges might be done with very powerful rockets that can change inertia quickly.

The types of solar propulsions used might be both Solar Wind and Photon Drive, on the Castles themselves. But maybe very close to the sun, exchanges of humans could occur between Castles using those propulsive methods, at least in part.

So, drives for this system would be Nuclear Electric, Nuclear Thermal, and Solar Wind, and Photon Drives. I think possibly when close to the sun some use of the Oberth Effect might be helpful also using the correct method of propulsion for that.

And Isaac Arthur thinks that short period comets may be worth mining as well, so maybe that can be true also.

This type of Cycler may be able to park at various planets by using Ballistic Capture. Mercury, Venus, Earth/Moon, Mars, and perhaps even Ceres. This would be another way to build them up. You might do that and take on various types of Mass to expand your Castle, but then of course when you unhook from that planet, you have to do all the work to get your Perihelion back towards the sun.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-22 11:24:18)

Void · 2023-09-22 12:00:56

It occurs to me that the problem of variable solar energy in an elliptical orbit, [sun-close]<>[Asteroids] might be handled with a very large mirror used to concentrate light at the asteroid end, and that then should be used as a sunshield when near the sun. You could have some holes in it which movable shutters to modulate the amount of light that would impinge on your heat engine(s).

At times such a Castle could have an especially large mirror made for it, and would seek to pass to a comet, using a push from the sun at sun proximity, and gravitational assists as may be useful, and then a Neumann Drive method. It would not be wrong to include Nuclear Fission as an additional resource. In this manner you could put a small, populated world into the location of a comet, the Jupiter crossing comets that Isaac Arthur likes. https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=VRDGAR

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-09-22 12:05:34)

Void · 2023-09-22 17:56:39

Keeping in mind that this is at least 90% for entertainment, I offer the question: "Why would you do that if this is likely to happen?".

I was thinking about using laser power from the inner solar system, to power ships to process comets and bring/send product to markets more inward in the solar system. So then the "Why would you do that, connects to the emergence of Fusion Power". So, we don't have proof of it yet, although it seems eventually it will emerge. But the answer to the question could be because it is cheaper/more suitable to the task.
Maybe it would be, maybe not. Time and invention and social interactions will tell that to someone who might be here to hear it.

But then it occurred to me, why wouldn't you send Laser Power to the moons of Jupiter? Callisto would have a distribution of materials, and Ganymede, is perhaps capable of holding an atmosphere with strong terraforming. You could also augment the magnetic field of Ganymede, and you might have something. And with that hold, could you somehow eventually turn Io into a giant power plant? Terrible radiation and of course furious volcanism, and magma tides, but lots of energy there. That could be a prelude to some locations that humans might tame around other stars, if humans or whatever comes next do travel to other star systems.

Of course, it may be that Callisto would send lots of stuff to the inner solar system as payment for power, but of course it is more gravity well than a comet might be.

So, as we go out there are so many variables, I guess the main thing is to learn not be become rigid and to favor adaptation as a trait.

That's my opinion at this time anyway.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-09-23 09:15:29)

Void · 2023-09-23 09:18:30

I am thinking of beamed power so maybe in the case of Laser Beamed Power it is best to consult library, and then think about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beam-powered_propulsion

I have sometimes thought that coupling the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bussard_ramjet with laser beamed power might make sense. You would have the power of the laser beam and the potential to collect mass to expel from the space environment. Well, that may or may not make sense. In this post I am not really interested in interstellar travel. However, I am interested in beamed power to a ship which can acquire mass from objects in the solar system.

Isaac Arthur has presented notions of a "Laser Highway" between stars. That, I believe relies on the inertia of photons. I would rather for the solar system be a bit more primitive. At one point in time I was hoping that it would be possible to ping the solar system with laser beams to find things that are hidden. I was informed that laser beams do spread over a far distance. So, that would not work.

But if we would have very light weight concentrating mirrors perhaps, we could catch the beam(s) and focus them at the site of the ship, I am hoping. I would say beams, as if you could point one beam at a target, why not multiple ones in parallel? And then as these mirrors would not likely be light enough to be pushed by photon inertia well enough, then if you could acquire mass, by various means you could expel some of it to get a propulsive reaction.

Such a ship might be quite large, and so it would be wise to have a fission reactor(s) for when the beamed power is interrupted. I am guessing that a small crew of humans might be included, and quite a few robots.

In the previous post I mentioned beaming power to Callisto. So, if you did that then some of the power could be beamed off of Callisto as lasers to power ships in that area of space.

Similar could be done with Saturn, where small moons could have receivers, and projectors. All of the Moons having low gravity, then mass would be very available.

Uranus and Neptune could be similar stories.

Looking at the moons of Saturn: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moons_of_Saturn

Just for giggles, I will go down a rabbit hole and see how far I get: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mimas_(moon)

Lets make a moonmoon for a small ice moon. If we provide protection from the solar wind, or the magnetic field of Saturn, with a local magnetic field, then we might vaporize the ice of the moon itself gradually and condense it onto a moonmoon.

Moonmoon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsatellite

More Coffee.............

Because my Moonmoon is for fun, I am going to have a Toroidal Doughnut Moonmoon.

To build it, we need solid materials that will not melt or char at ~room temperatures. So, we can import lots of Silicate materials from elsewhere, as the solar wind should be able sweep ships to the build location from the inner solar system. And if our ices are containing Carbon, Oxygen, and Hydrogen, we can make woody substances. Cellulose being among those.

By the way, maybe someday a Moonmoon for Titan might be built. Maybe it would need to be round though and hang out in a "L" location.

Anyway, eventually you could get to the cores of small ice moons and have those materials available locally. You could probably make mirrors with that and woody materials, paper mirrors with a metallic coating? But to do heavy vaporizing of moon materials you might want laser power from the inner solar system.

I have actually suggested a Moonmoon for our moon and that could be a toroid also, I think.

A Moonmoon of Titan could get power from lasers, and then microwave energy to Titan. Not sure that is wanted, but perhaps you could. Maybe you could after all have a toroid Moonmoon for Titan. It would look nice. Might interfere with space elevators though.

Done

I think that somewhere in the universe almost anything has happened. There are notions of how secondary objects form, if you want to call our Moon a secondary object, then the most promoted theory is impact of two objects.

But I think about multiple condensation. Obviously, that has happened for Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/486958_Arrokoth
Image Quote:

One possibility is that this condensed from a single swirl. Maybe not, but maybe. In that model, one of the parts should be composed of lighter materials than the other.

My alternate theory of the formation of our Moon, would be like that. Now don't get me wrong, I actually tilt more towards the impact theory as the major factor likely. But I want to explore the idea of two or more objects condensing from a swirl.

In that idea, the Earth would condense more with compression. Greater gravity, and so the materials would not have to be cold to condense. And the heat of that condensation would drive lighter materials away perhaps, and that might condense by ice condensation as a smaller object. This could possibly be Pluto/Charon's formation method. But there are smaller moons of Pluto, so those do look like results of impacts.

I used to think that our Moon could have started in such a way, and that impacts of Earth and Moon might have modified it to its present form. But I don't invest much in that notion now. I am comfortable with the impact only notion. If we go to the Moon, we will discover the greater amount of truth eventually anyway. But if it were true then the Moon could hold lots of volatiles in its lower portions. Our Earth is said to have oceans of water in it's lower portions. So, why not the Moon? Well the Moon is not the Earth, so I say, it could be or it is not so. It is not proven.

Deep Ocean in Earth's mantle: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-AA1h6ARR Quote:

Massive ocean discovered beneath the Earth's crust containing more water than on the surface
Story by Harry Fletcher •
1d

Even without an icy precursor Moon, it seems possible that the Earth formed with lots of water. If it did, then even with the giant impact formation theory, are we sure that the Moon does not have stored water in its deeps?

We don't know. That is the most true answer.

But dogma is how things normally work. Dogma is a short cut intelligence. You have a crib sheet, and do some parlor tricks and you then get accepted as the autoreactive librarian for description of reality.

Well, how we are is how we got here. I guess we just have to work with what is here. But it does not hurt to reserve alternate notions of possibilities. Don't just hand everything over to the shortcut minds for free.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-23 10:30:13)

Void · 2023-09-23 10:39:38

I really need to do my chores today, but this is more fun.

Spinneret: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinneret

So, I have some hope that if we were to use the Newmann Drive as a mass driver, to build a Moonmoon(s), various forces might be manipulated to spin a stream of matter, not just consisting of Iron.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-24 13:49:33)

tahanson43206 · 2023-09-23 10:42:03

For Void re Post #1321

There is so much going on in this post, (and in the topic overall) I hesitate to focus on one tiny detail.

However, you said:

Isaac Arthur has presented notions of a "Laser Highway" between stars. That, I believe relies on the inertia of photons. I would rather for the solar system be a bit more primitive. At one point in time I was hoping that it would be possible to ping the solar system with laser beams to find things that are hidden. I was informed that laser beams do spread over a far distance. So, that would not work.

I understand numbers are not your thing, so I will not look anxiously for a reply, but you might run across something to help ...

My question is ... what were you told, and why did you decide your idea would not work?

The Solar System is small compared to the Galaxy, let along the Universe.

Reflectivity of objects illuminated by a laser beam seem (to me at least) to be a greater concern than decreases in intensity of a laser beam.

Is there any reason your "search beam" could not be placed in the Oort Cloud, for example, and tuned to excite reaction from objects covered in material that might exist there?

Perhaps the entity that "told" you something about laser beams could help you to evaluate the question?

(th)

Void · 2023-09-23 10:50:03

That entity was a member long ago on one of these sites. I don't recall, I have been perhaps 3 members here in the deep past and there were other related sites even Spacenut was at as I recall.

I just presume it is true. I believe that even for Starshot, Lasers may need the addition of a Frenzel Lense.

Actually, I can do Math. I don't bother with the deep stuff usually. Precision is a route to myopic views of realty. I used to do a lot of calibrations, and a big mistake is to do the precision adjustments first. You do the crude calculations first. But that is not always how to get what you want. If you are going to take a deep precise measurement, then you have to try to cancel out other disturbing factors.

I enjoy moving fast and finding my prey. Focusing on a small stone on the ground with precision, then may divert my attention from the sky.

I have worked in crude mining processing and also science laboratories. (As the one who may work on their test instruments and give them measurements, adjustments, and validation under government requirements). NIST and such.

I got a friendly lecture from a customer, (Lab worker) one time. I was going so silly fine with my work, that he told me "This is Carpet Science, not Rocket Science". You have to know when to invest in precision, and usually you do crude work first and then precision work if necessary and valuable to the outcome.

Many people got that wrong. It only makes sense. The more magical you can make your art look, the more chances of impressing someone not familiar with your skill set.

By precisely focusing on a stone on the ground because it was the first thing you noticed you may miss the view in the distance, and that may contain something much more worth your time and efforts.

Done.

But yes, I don't do rocket science. I know someone here who it for me can do if I need it and if that person chooses to help me.

Done.

The correction device made this phrase, I like it: "I know someone here who it for me can do if I need it and if that person chooses to help me.".

I think I will clean up for a while and give you a chance to reply if you want to. Then I may get back to the previous post.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-23 10:59:57)

Void · 2023-09-23 12:57:03

(th), I suppose the reason I want to invoke receiver mirrors to concentrate laser beam that I presume have spread, and that I also want to overlap multiple laser beams, is to just assure that such power transmission may be possible at distances. Otherwise, I fear someone will just get their jollies saying that the beam would spread and so it is a bad idea. There is a tendency for such things to happen. Some people simply participate in order to please their psychological needs for dominance. So, I have an insurance policy. A sort of software ladder to be able to respond to the word weapons that someone of that sort would be likely to throw at me. As I have said there are breeds of people who do not have technological advancement as the purpose of these discussions.

Maybe we could scan the solar system to "Ping" for objects we cannot see, but I do agree that the reflected light would be very attenuated. Perhaps if we could focus a beam of a wavelength not visual, maybe that might work better.

But my game was to create a method to transmit power for solar system local desires, and perhaps eventually out to the Oort Cloud.

We could have "Energy Repeaters", such as to make Callisto, or parts of it a receiver for beams from nearer the sun. Then we could take that power and send laser beams out from there, to some other object. Perhaps a Centaur.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centaur_( … stem_body)
Image Quote: Quote:

Positions of known outer Solar System objects.
The centaurs orbit generally inwards of the Kuiper belt and outside the Jupiter trojans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10199_Chariklo
Quote:

Size and shape
Chariklo is currently the largest known centaur, with a volume-equivalent diameter of about 250 km.[11] Its shape is probably elongated with dimensions 287.6 × 270.4 × 198.2 km.[11] (523727) 2014 NW65 is likely to be the second largest with 225 km (140 mi) and 2060 Chiron is likely to be the third largest with 220 km (140 mi).[9]

So, perhaps these things could be used as repeater stations to send power even further out. They have unstable orbits, so perhaps they can eventually fly outwards even perhaps to find Rogue planets, even perhaps to another star system?

If used as repeater stations, there would be power losses. I will see what I can figure out. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser
Quote:

Laser - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser
This emission is in the thermal infrared at 10.6 µm; such lasers are regularly used in industry for cutting and welding. The efficiency of a CO 2 laser is unusually high: over 30%. Argon-ion lasers can operate at several lasing transitions between 351 and 528.7 nm. Depending on the optical design one or more of these … See more

So >30% sounds not so bad actually. But of course, that is the send efficiency only not the receive efficiency. But then you might recover and use the waste heat to do work for you at location. The further out you went, possibly the more valuable the power would be.

If practical economic fusion shows up, then perhaps for power to worlds beaming would not be so important. But perhaps it would have use in starting up new Centaurs, and other objects, and for shipping. It might be lighter than a Fusion power system, or in some other way more useful.

An instance of use would be to heat up a Centaur to make it more useful. And then if you could run nuclear, you perhaps would.

It currently seems a fantastic idea that the hardware to do this would be cheap enough, but with robotics of an advanced sort, we might expect strong deflation of the cost of such a method. I would hope anyway.

Done.

This is actually considerably fun: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10199_Chariklo
Quote:

Orbit
Centaurs originated in the Kuiper belt and are in dynamically unstable orbits that will lead to ejection from the Solar System, an impact with a planet or the Sun, or transition into a short-period comet.[31]
The orbit of Chariklo is more stable than those of Nessus, Chiron, and Pholus. Chariklo lies within 0.09 AU of the 4:3 resonance of Uranus and is estimated to have a relatively long orbital half-life of about 10.3 Myr.[32] Orbital simulations of twenty clones of Chariklo suggest that Chariklo will not start to regularly come within 3 AU (450 Gm) of Uranus for about thirty thousand years.[33]
During the perihelic oppositions of 2003–04, Chariklo had an apparent magnitude of +17.7.[34] As of 2014, Chariklo was 14.8 AU from the Sun.[15]

Yellow=Sun
Red=Jupiter
Yellow=Saturn
Green= Uranus
Pufple/Violet=10199 Chariklo

So, since they could hit planets or leave the solar system they are to be of interest, I am sure.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-23 13:29:52)

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