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#26 2023-07-09 09:24:02

RGClark
Member
From: Philadelphia, PA
Registered: 2006-07-05
Posts: 738
Website

Re: Stoke Space

Perhaps Stoke Space should mention noted rocket designer Philip Bono was the originator of the idea of using a plug nozzle for cooling on reentry:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Bono

It would be wise also to note Bono used the increased efficiency of an aeroplug/aerospike on launch in his designs rather than dismissing it.

History of the Phoenix VTOL SSTO and recent developments in single-stage launch systems.
January 1992
Authors: Gary Hudson
Fkx1cfwXEAIYWDF?format=jpg
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio … ch_systems

This is important because doing a delta-v calculation via a rocket equation a hydrolox stage like the Stoke Space stage with a 10 to 1 mass ratio, a la the Centaur stage, could actually reach orbit with an aerospike nozzle.

NASA proved 20 years ago that the aerospike works by actually building it and testing it:

XRS-2200/RS-2200 LINEAR AEROSPIKE ENGINE DATA SHEETS.
linear-aerospike-xrs-2200-front.jpg
linear-aerospike-xrs-2200-back.jpg
http://heroicrelics.org/info/aerospikes … -2200.html


  Bob Clark

Last edited by RGClark (2023-07-09 09:27:36)


Old Space rule of acquisition (with a nod to Star Trek - the Next Generation):

      “Anything worth doing is worth doing for a billion dollars.”

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#27 2023-07-09 09:52:40

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 9,772

Re: Stoke Space

Founded by a group of former Blue Origin and SpaceX employees, Andy Lapsa and Tom Feldman with the company.

'heat shield'

https://twitter.com/stoke_space/status/ … 3093827585

'Washington poised to be the next Silicon Valley of the space industry, it just needs workers'

https://lynnwoodtimes.com/2023/07/06/sp … ry-230705/

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#28 2023-09-18 03:11:05

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 9,772

Re: Stoke Space

Stoke Space puts its test rocket through a successful hop in central Washington state

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/stoke-sp … 31060.html?

Hopper2’s 15-second flight took place at Stoke’s test facility at Grant County International Airport in Moses Lake, Wash., at 11:24 a.m. PT. A hydrogen-fueled rocket engine sent the test vehicle to a height of 30 feet, with a landing 15 feet away from the launch pad, Stoke CEO Andy Lapsa told GeekWire.

“It’s the last test in our development program for Hopper, and by all accounts, it’s been very successful,” Lapsa said.

Stoke Space was founded in 2019 by Lapsa, a veteran of Jeff Bezos’ Blue Origin space venture; and Tom Feldman, who worked at Blue Origin after interning at SpaceX. In addition to the testing grounds at Moses Lake’s airport, the company has a 21,000-square-foot engineering and manufacturing headquarters in Kent, Wash., not far from Blue Origin’s HQ.

In 2021, the company raised $65 million in a funding round led by Microsoft co-founder Bill Gates’ Breakthrough Energy Ventures. And earlier this year, Stoke won the go-ahead to take over Cape Canaveral Space Force Station’s Launch Complex 14 in Florida, the site of John Glenn’s history-making Mercury launch in 1962.

Going forward, Stoke’s team will concentrate more fully on developing its rocket’s first stage and ramping up operations in Florida, Lapsa said.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-09-18 03:12:45)

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#29 2023-09-18 06:02:35

Mars_B4_Moon
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Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 9,772

Re: Stoke Space

In the first months of 2023, Stoke Space finished the construction of their full scale second stage, stating that it was going to perform "hops", similar to SpaceX's Starhopper Prototype. Founded by Andy Lapsa and Tom Feldman it is developing a fully reusable space launch vehicle.

https://twitter.com/stoke_space/status/ … 0540883195

We're on a mission - starting with 100% reusable rockets.

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#30 2023-09-18 15:14:30

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,308

Re: Stoke Space

Nice catch Mars_B4_Moon.

Here is another video I was going to place here as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZB4EZvywhDQ
Quote:

Stoke Space Just Completed Its First Vehicle Flight

TheSpaceBucket

I hope I get to see them bring it to completion.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-09-18 15:24:53)


Done.

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#31 2023-09-19 10:01:52

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,308

Re: Stoke Space

I was puzzling over the Stokes Space 2nd stage, and for a while pondering its potential flexibility.

As I have thought for Starship, options may exist for the non-locomotive part of the 2nd stage, that would be the Fairings/Capsule and the contents of which ever you considered to use.  I think they have many options.

1) Dispose of the Fairings when the air becomes thin enough, let the fall to the ocean, or burn up.
2) Keep them and use the enclosure to carry mass down to a landing.
3) Leave the Fairings/Capsule up in orbit, and perhaps sell them to some entity, such as Neumann Space, or some space station builder.

Then I wondered if they are successful with their prototype, could they supersize it, and put that on a SpaceX Super Heavy as it's 1st stage booster?  I don't know if sizing up will work out.  Don't get me wrong, I am not dismissing Starship, it has qualities that will be needed for some purposes.  But as I said the prototype has to be demonstrated as practical, and then perhaps you could try to supersize it.

Stoke Space uses Hydrogen to cool its heatshield, not by a skin evaporation method, but it seems by a sort of Hydrogen steam engine that runs a pump to circulate the cooling fluid, Hydrogen.

For a long time, I have wished to figure out how to cool something like that with Liquid Oxygen.  My feelings are that it would be very hard and perhaps impractical, even not possible.

I am anxiously awaiting a video by Isaac Arthur about mining atmospheres.

And I have considered rotavators before to scoop atmosphere, but it occurred to me that the bulk of what you would scoop would be Nitrogen.  Nitrogen is not noble but is rather well behaved relative to many other elements.  Perhaps Nitrogen could become a coolant for atmospheric entry?  And you might collect considerable Oxygen and also some Argon, perhaps 1% of content.  These would all be useful. 

It seems to me that this might be the most practical way to use tethers in orbit.

As for propulsion to make up for the drag, I believe that the Europeans have an electric propulsion that can handle Nitrogen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospher … propulsion
Quote:

Atmosphere-breathing electric propulsion

Busek Co. Inc. in the U.S. patented their concept of an Air Breathing Hall Effect Thruster (ABHET) in 2004,[15] and with funding from the NASA Institute for Advanced Concepts, started in 2011 a feasibility study that would be applied to Mars (Mars-ABHET or MABHET), where the system would breath and ionize atmospheric carbon dioxide.[16] The MABHET concept is based on the same general principles as JAXA's Air Breathing Ion Engine (ABIE) or ESA's RAM-EP.[17]

So, I don't know if a Nitrogen Steam Engine heat shield cooler could work, but after all the atmospheric gasses collected may have many uses.

Of course, some people might get nervous about scooping the Earth's atmosphere.  I am sure doom porn would emerge about it.  In much of the use of those collected gasses, they could be fired retrograde to the Earth's spin and the orbit of the spacecraft ejecting them.  So, it may be possible to have them reach zero speed, and they would just plunge back down into the atmosphere.  At least that is how I see it.

If this could be done, then we would not bother to move Oxygen from the Moon to LEO.  Now as far as Starship goes, it might be able to use a Steam Engine Active Cooling with Nitrogen as well.

The two ships if they can work at the size to go onto Super Heavy, might actually complement each other.  Or not, I don't know at this point, but Starship may likely be more suitable for deep space, including Mars.

Now as far as electric rockets go, freight might be moved efficiently in CIS Lunar Space using them.  Neuman Drive, Argon, and maybe Nitrogen.  The Moon may be where Starship goes to refill Oxygen before departing for other planets and asteroids.


Done.

A question might be "Can the output of an electric rocket be sprayed at orbital space junk to make its orbit decay sooner?".

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-19 10:37:58)


Done.

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#32 2023-09-19 11:02:30

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,308

Re: Stoke Space

In reference to the just prior post;

If atmospheric mining using a rotavator was possible for Earth, then we might consider if it could work for Venus and Mars.  There should be less space junk around those planets at least at this time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospher … propulsion
Quote:

This technology could also be utilized on any planet with atmosphere, if the thruster can process other propellants, and if the power source can provide the required power, e.g. sufficient solar irradiation for the solar panels, such as Mars and Venus, otherwise other electric power subsystems such as a space nuclear reactor or radioisotope thermoelectric generator (RTG) have to be implemented, for example for a mission around Titan.

So, if a rotavator had one or two engines that dipped into the Earth's atmosphere, it might be able to tank some of the collected gas and use it for propulsion even when the engine was far out of the Earth's atmosphere.  And possibly some of the collected gas could be moved down to hub.

For Earth, I am supposing solar power would be provided at the hub and distributed somehow to the tether end(s) electric rocket engines.


Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-19 11:09:06)


Done.

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#33 2023-10-09 06:05:14

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 9,772

Re: Stoke Space

Stoke Space Announces $100 Million in New Investment

https://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Stok … t_999.html

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#34 2023-10-14 21:06:28

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,308

Re: Stoke Space

Something more: Nova Rocket: https://gizmodo.com/nova-reusable-rocke … 1850907043

I have seen a video that suggests that this can be a Moon ship, and I like that.

So, they intend to have in orbit refilling also.

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=VRDGAR

Don't get me wrong, I am still a Starship/SpaceX fan, but this makes it even harder for the luddites, to yet again kill the space effort in the crib.

Then consider that if SpaceX and Stoke teamed up, then a Starship could refill a Stoke spacecraft.  The Stoke ship is smaller, and runs on Hydrogen and Oxygen.  Refilling might happen in LEO, or maybe even in an orbit of the Moon.
.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-10-14 21:25:58)


Done.

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#35 2024-01-07 20:43:30

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,308

Re: Stoke Space

Some people may like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_S350j1HQA
Quote:

Stoke Space CEO Andy Lapsa - Fully Reusable Rockets - NSF Live

NASASpaceflight
885K subscribers

Of course, if it can continue to live and evolve it looks good to me, perhaps for the Moon and maybe even Mars as a complimentary system to Starship.

It takes a little bit to get sound on the video.

Time will tell.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-07 20:44:56)


Done.

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#36 2024-03-15 08:40:12

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,308

Re: Stoke Space

A bit of interesting materials in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOXzwA5x980
Quote:

Stoke Space is about to launch the most efficient rapidly rocket in the world!

TECH MAP

Talks about orbital refilling, and sort of might go further than LEO.

Moon Lander???

Well, if water on the Moon, this one has Hydra Lox.

Mars?  Well, I would expect that it would travel as a cargo on another propulsion system to do that, but would it perhaps make a good ship to use on Mars?

I presume that for Mars, it might not need a booster.

But they have to get to be proficient at LEO work first, of course.

The ship will have retained dual fairings on hinges, I think.

So, this is to be called "NOVA"?

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-15 08:45:43)


Done.

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#37 2024-03-24 11:16:38

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,308

Re: Stoke Space

Here is an interesting interview: https://www.bing.com/search?q=%22A+Full … AD&pc=U531
Quote:

Global web icon
YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEa1Jnmxz0g
" A Fully Reusable Rocket" - Stoke Space VP Interview - YouTube
Jan 7, 2024 · SpaceX OVZON-3 Launch. LIFTOFF! SpaceX 1st Starlink To Cell Satellites. " A Fully Reusable Rocket" - Stoke Space VP Interview #StokeSpace #NOVA #Interview Join us as we …

I really hope that their method works.  Even if it is limited too LEO, it would be a wonderful thing.

I am wondering if it could be sized up and put on top of the SpaceX Superheavy.  I am not dismissing the Starship, rather, I think maybe this device could be supportive of Starship, such as refilling it.

At in the interview, it is stated that Methane will not work well for the cooling method they are trying.  Hydrogen would be the best.  So, they use Hydrogen on their 2nd Stage.

It is stated that they will likely use both hungry hippo fairings, which would remain attached, and also may be able to recover fairings in the ocean like SpaceX does.

I am very hopeful for these people.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-24 11:25:51)


Done.

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#38 2024-06-13 06:11:30

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,308

Re: Stoke Space

This is about a Stoke Space 1st Stage Engine, I believe: https://www.space.com/stoke-space-first … ift-rocket


Done.

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#39 2024-06-13 06:14:38

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,308

Re: Stoke Space

This is about a Stoke Space 1st Stage Engine, I believe: https://www.space.com/stoke-space-first … ift-rocket

Quote:

Stoke Space test-fires engine for upcoming fully reusable rocket (photos)
News
By Brett Tingley published 20 hours ago
The company calls its upcoming Nova launch vehicle the "most robust, fully and rapidly reusable medium-lift rocket in the world."

This would be Metha Lox, I believe.  I also think that the NOVA rocket by Rocket Lab and also for Relativity Space, and Blue Origin will have Metha Lox engines.  China may also have some.

And of course, there will be some Hydra Lox engines as well.

The point is the practice of sending a Starship to the Moon will likely not be the only option.  Blue Origins Hydra Lox 2nd stage could go, and it may be possible to make a "Mini" Ship of some kind to fly excursions to and from the Moon, using smaller Metha Lox engines.

So, once SpaceX or even BO has refilling in orbit it may be that one or two tankers alone to LEO could refill a "Mini" ship.  For the Moon, except for initial hardware deliveries, a small ship might work very well.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-06-13 06:18:06)


Done.

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#40 2024-06-13 11:40:55

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,308

Re: Stoke Space

I have been thinking further about various things that may apply to this topic, but also heat shields.

It has occurred to me that the Starship Flaps are a form of heatshield method that resembles, a surfboard method I previously was interested in.

What they have now proposed and perhaps tested, is a Steel Flap, of their own developing alloy, and then an ablative emergency heat shield, and then over that tile heat shield.

But for flaps there is a difference.  The heat shield in that case can shed heat by radiation from the leeward side  That is not possible in the same way in the heat shield that protects the belly.

I think that that in itself offers interesting options.  While at this time the flaps are actively modulated, you might have flaps that are entirely static, which may offer more heat shield area.  You might also have "Latching" heat shields.  Flaps that fold up for launch but fold out to a latching for atmospheric entry.  So, you might add to the footprint of a ship while not adding proportionally as much dry mass.

I am also considering active cooling from the leeward side of such flaps of any kind.  As I understand it, active cooling is only contemplated so far as 1) Sweating Method, or 2) Stokes Space and perhaps BO method, of a sort of steam engine combined with heat shield, and multi-nozzle engine method.

Active cooling of the leeward side of flaps could involve cryogenic liquids, but also perhaps melt and vaporizing metals or salts.

I guess the idea of using metals of salts it rather far out there, maybe something could be figured out someday.

But for now, evaporative cooling on the leeward side looks interesting to me, perhaps using Methane.

For the Stokes Space profile that is a bit like a capsule, perhaps flaps like an unfolding flower petal might work.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoke_Space
Image Quote: 220px-Stoke_Hopper_SN2.jpg

The petals would be hinged on the outer perimeter of the bottom and would fold up against the walls of the "Capsule" during launch, but prior to initiating re-entry, you would fold them down and latch them in place to increase the footprint.

Perhaps this crude drawing may help: uPLOkie.png

So, I wonder if we might want a topic devoted to heat shields?

I have wondered it if would be possible to use Liquid Oxygen on the Leeward side of such a "Flap" heat shield, as it can be gotten from the Moon.  But you would strongly risk combustion of metals that would be hot.  Perhaps part of the heat shield leeward features could be a non-combustible latus though which LOX could flow.

The point being that the Moon and other worlds could supply lots of LOX, but not so much Methane and Hydrogen to dispose of.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-06-13 12:17:21)


Done.

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#41 2024-06-13 12:42:19

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,308

Re: Stoke Space

Continuing with the previous post:

While I might thing that the Lunar Starship is going to be overkill, after insitu Lunar production is implemented, still the idea of a "Surfboard" for a Lunar Ship without a heat shield comes to mind again.

It could be for reuse, but also could be single use.  If manufactured on the Moon, then connected to a ship, it would be lifted to orbit, then fly to an atmospheric intercept.  It would be on standoffs a small distance from the ship proper.

Then using the SpaceX Heat Shield notions, tiles in front of ablative, in front of structural shield (Steel?), with LOX evaporative cooling on its leeward side.  My notion is that this assembly would not land on the surface of Earth but do an Aerocapture, to orbit.  Then the heat shield would be sent back to the Moon, or perhaps better it would be repurposed as a resource in Earth orbits.

If the shields could be mass produced on the Moon, then that could be a stream of materials from the Moon to Earth orbits.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-06-13 12:46:34)


Done.

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