Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Void · 2023-08-30 19:28:10

I hope I have not worn out the patience of the membership. I try to stay out of the way a lot of the time.

A bit of rest perhaps.

Done.

Calliban · 2023-08-31 03:36:29

The inner planets have much tighter orbits than the outer solar system planets. That allows for reqular gravity assists. That is fortunate, because dV is grwater than we could practically achieve with near term propulsion alone. The Messenger probe was able to achieve orbit of Mercury via gravity assists after some 6.5 years.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/missions/m … /in-depth/

The orbital speed of Mercury is 45 km/s. That is indicative of the sort of dV requirements you would need to match velocity without gravity assists. I think a classic cycler isn't going to work for Mercury. Instead, we would need a large, well shielded ship with enough propulsion to take advantage of gravity assists. But all trajectories would be unique. And it may take a long time to get to Mercury.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-08-31 03:38:38)

Void · 2023-08-31 09:57:50

Well, it may turn out you are correct, and I am willing to risk that by exploring more on the subject.

Let's let go of the "Cycler" label and let's consider "Variable Elliptical".

A "Variable Elliptical", instead of trying to match to two planets in an orbit, might align itself with just one planet for a while and then another planet for a while. The flip-flops might be over periods of years. These will be worlds all by themselves.

Let consider some technologies that would be assistive to them.

1) I think I may be in love with Nuclear Thermal that can use thermal expansion of Argon, and also can use ion engines using Argon.
I think that this might be fantastic for moving people between two stations where a high "Delta V" is required. Then they can otherwise use the ion propulsion to move efficiently back to "Go".

2) Robotic Solar Electric Argon transports. These indeed may travel slow and may use gravity assists to move tanks of Argon to locations desired. So, then they could supply a "Variable Elliptical" station with Argon, in an efficient manner. These can also then resupply the Item #1 with Argon, directly or from a Variable Elliptical" station.

3) We may want Megga Satellite Stations in "L2" locations for Mercury and Venus. They may also be supplied by #2.

4) "L2" locations may interact with their planet's infrastructure, for Mercury and Venus.

5) The solar energy for locations inside that of Earth orbit, is going to be rather good, so, any method of that sort might bring extracted products outwards from the sun, to these previously mentions location and the Earth/Moon.

So, then Mercury can be sources of chemicals like Carbon, Nitrogen, and perhaps even Argon, if it can be obtained from those worlds.

I suppose the Neumann Drive might show up in that mix as well, if it matures well.

If an Elliptical Station is in Harmony with Mercury or Venus, then it might not be that hard to do a mission to it when it is further from the sun. And indeed, a Venus flyby or aerobraking may be involved.

I think we have to break out of the 60's and 70's thinking. Back then the Aldrin Cycler was expected to be resupplied by chemical rocket propulsion.

The "Elliptical Stations", and "L2" stations can sail on photons and/or Solar Wind and might also use forms of Ion Drive as well. And there are likely other options.

I generally support much of what Isaac Arthur has to say here: https://www.reddit.com/r/IsaacArthur/co … onization/
Quote:

r/IsaacArthur
•
3 hr. ago
by
IsaacArthur
Near Term Space Colonization

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-01 18:36:41)

Void · 2023-08-31 11:00:38

I actually think that this thing about Carbon that I am migrating to here from elsewhere, fits with the time local posts here: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 56#p213156
Quote:

I am having a look at this today as I stumbled on to it.
https://antoraenergy.com/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXB5bwYFYv4
Yet another example why Carbon is wonderful. Let's hope it will work and also expand.
Done

For worlds that have clockwork solar this is going to be very good, even for our Moon which may be Carbon poor.

In the previous post it seems to me that Isaac Arthur supports the notion of doing near term space propulsion with Hydrocarbons from Earth and Oxygen from the Moon if there are no better options.

I have used the idea of Lithobraking Carbon to the Moon previously here at NewMars, but I have a bit of a dislike for the term as it is often used as a joke when crashing a ship. So, I will turn the steering wheel to the term "Hard Landed", or "Hard Landing" when referring to dropping substances like Carbon to a world.

We need to be conscious of how the verbal hive mind people keep slaves by using language fences, and other verbal devices. The use of "Hard Landed" may tunnel under their fence.

We could land Carbon by "Normal" means such as in the cargo hold of a ship. But we also could drop that material prior to the ships landing or even not land the ship at all. The objective however is to have recoverable Carbon if Carbon is what we want to deliver to the Moon.

Carbon so dropped, might be used in fuels. Preheated Carbon Fuel, CO fuel, and Methane. That then is somewhat a onetime use.
We might hope that some rocket exhaust could be captured back to shadowed crater cold traps, but that might require launching from those places to promote efficiency for that.

But to use Carbon on the Moon for energy storage, that looks quite good to me. You could use it over and over again as it is likely to be stable in such a use when kept separate from Oxygen, in particular.

So, for the Moon this might provide a continuous power to purpose option on the Moon regardless of the long Lunar nights.

Done.

This looks related and exciting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY3n7hhe6EM

Graphite of course is a type of Carbon.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-31 11:22:04)

Void · 2023-08-31 13:45:58

If I can bring back shapes like this as a start, and eventually modify them we might be able to do "Inverse Lava Tube Building".

For the Moon we might try this sort of thing:

It sort of is build by similar methods to this:

So, if we start from a Roman Arch for "C" can we high temperature add lava on top if that and turn it into a thermally conductive rock mass?

I think maybe.

Then to put thermal insulation on top of it.

We might try to do something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY3n7hhe6EM

If we want to import Carbon then that could also go into 'C'.

And if you are going to import Carbon they why not CO2 for a heat engine where it may apply.

While the structure may be super hot, it might also offer radiation protection, so that if you had habitat structure inside of 'C' and could reliably bring coolant in, coolant of CO2, you may maintain a suitable habitat for robots or even humans. Should the system break down though you would want a protective structure adjacent to this to retreat into, until repairs were done.

Early work, I am sure it could be improved.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-31 13:52:38)

Void · 2023-08-31 19:35:39

This is just something I happened on, not the main point of this post: https://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/lif … 12b03&ei=7 Quote:

These light, ultra-powerful bricks are made of sugar — and there’s a big reason they may replace concrete in our buildings
Story by Lajja Mistry •
2d

Actually, made from sugar cane waste. But I have mentioned growing sugar cane in space before. Lets not forbid it for the Moon or import to the Moon by hard landing methods.

I suppose it is not impossible that it could be used for construction on the Moon:

I don't know if we would want to make it as big as it could be made. I am presuming that it could have a cross section equivalent to a Lunar Lava Tube.

This will illustrate how big it is supposed those can be: https://www.space.com/moon-colonists-lu … tubes.html
Image Quote: Quote:

The city of Philadelphia is shown inside a theoretical lunar lava tube. A Purdue University team of researchers explored whether lava tubes more than 0.6 miles (1 kilometer) wide could remain structurally stable on the moon. (Image credit: Purdue University/Courtesy of David Blair)

On Earth, the Romans would not have included a lot of metal to their arch, as it was hard to come by, and it would likely corrode. Not as much a problem for us on the Moon, I think.

I also suggest high tensile cables on the outside perimeter, and anchored to the feet of the structure.

Tensile might be Carbon, or high quality Steel. This then requires importing Carbon most likely.

The structure would be for blocking radiation, holding a thermal charge, and usually only holding a very low air pressure or none at all.

But with the tensile cables and the weight of the device it might on occasion be rigged to hold atmosphere.

I am thinking of ways to sinter the stone parts of the structure.

https://interestingengineering.com/scie … g-the-moon
Quote:

How to build a lunar landing pad
The study, carried out by the defense and space manufacturing company Cislune along with researchers from the University of Florida (UCF) and Arizona State University, concluded that the easiest and most economical way of building the lunar landing pads may be by utilizing sintering - a method that uses microwaves to melt the soil, while also engaging beneficiation, or sorting, technology.

This is something from a number of years ago: https://hackaday.com/2011/06/25/selecti … with-sand/
There is an interesting video, where objects are sintered from sand using sunlight.

Now if you start with a metal frame of an arch, then you could put blocks or directly sinter materials on top of it to make an arch.
The desire is to have heat conductive through the structure so, that is a bit of a problem to solve, as separated blocks might have some vacuum between them. Perhaps some sort of a soft metal sheet that will squeeze tight? Put that between blocks? Or Tar, if you can import the ingredients.

Then perhaps put tensile cables over the arch, if you have a reason to, such as pressurizing the interior. The put a thermal insulation over that.

In the interior if you intend to use CO2 in a heat engine, then have tubing or the equivalent in the original metal arch we started with.

By the method of your choice heat the interior during the day. I think we could get away with some high temperatures, it may be possible to have cooled habitats inside even if it is hot as it is a vacuum inside, more or less.

Indeed, you may have another one where you store nighttime cold by some method. So, then that would complete your heat engine.

If there are leaks of CO2 from the heat engine, I expect that it may be possible to catch those leaks in these structures and to recover them with high quality vacuum pumping.

The Rover of China took a look, and it appears that at least at that location, a thick layer of broken regolith overlays several layers of lava flows. To me this suggests that there could be lots of Lava Tubes that we cannot see. And they may not all be broken.

So, the deal might be to remove all the broken regolith and then build these structures on the Lave Flow "Bedrock", and maybe in some cases they can connect to natural lava tubes.

A work in progress. At least fuel for the imagination.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-31 20:14:31)

Void · 2023-08-31 21:02:44

Maybe I will do one more.

What happens to the exhaust if a rocket engine hovers above a Lunar Shadowed Crater?

Our engines might be H2/O2 or CH4/O2 or Hot Carbon/O2. The exhaust will be water and/or CO2.

Now if it hovers and dumps off Carbon and/or Vegetation, are we able to recover the rocket exhaust as we may hope it will freeze to the crater bottom.

We will drop the Carbon and/or Vegetation at an altitude where reasonable economic recovery of a useful product is possible.

And then it that works in a Shadowed Crater, can we do it before morning on the night side of the Moon even at the equator?

This is some form of Lithobraking or Hard Landing and whatever the exhaust recovery might be called. The ship might not have landing legs and might scoot back up to orbit towards the end of the materials drop.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-31 21:06:48)

Void · 2023-09-01 09:38:27

For entertainment, perhaps, I will talk about a possible type of Lunar Starship. Not the HLS.

It may be true that it could make sense to move a use a Starship up and down from the Lunar surface until it crashes or is purposely retired from service. Such a Ship may use Methane from Earth, and Oxygen from the Moon.

For the Moon however, it has occurred to me that you don't need the nose or cabin section to do that. In fact, for such a propulsion section, you could attach freight externally. Places most sensible for that would be the legs assembly(s), and possibly on top of the blunt propellant tanks.

I think legs are preferred, but there could be exceptions. A human could ride externally if in a protected method like a space suit, but I would think that would be an exception not a rule. Just for emergencies, I would think. Situations to recover from that are already life threatening.

So, such a Lunar Cargo Lander, would be born with a nose section which it would use in order to get from the Earth's surface to LEO. At some point such as LEO, or on the Lunar surface, the nose section would be removed. It could either be used as scrap or be part of a LEO station or Lunar Base. So, it would be preplanned to be detachable as an intention.

As a lander, then from that point it is just the propulsion section. Since it will be shorter, it will be less topple prone. The leg sections will be for a one time use. They may have cargo attached to them. They will be left behind on the Moon each time for salvage.

So, under normal use the only thing that will go up to Lunar orbit would be the engine section.

I want to involve Electric propulsion to assist this. Argon is more likely to be a created method before perhaps the Neumann Drive, so I am going to say Argon.

So, Propulsion sections, and leg sections with cargo would be sent to Lunar orbit, probably a Space Station in orbit of the Moon. Also fuel depots of Methane and perhaps Argon may be sent by electric propulsion to that Space Station.

The Depots may or may not be brought back to Earth LEO when empty. Otherwise, they may be repurposed into the Lunar Space Station.

So, this would mostly be an Earth(LEO)>Moon Orbit>Lunar Surface conveyor system for freight. It is possible that some things would come back Lunar Orbit>LEO, but most will not.

The idea of using the Propulsion Sections to Failure may be effective, so you would use them quickly within the margins of practical use, as
hardware should be expected to deteriorate over time even if not in use. If some repairs can be done easily that would be easy. But a crashed ship could most likely be salvaged, and so not totally be a waste.

This sort of thing would be most useful prior to starting up a base, and perhaps during startup. Perhaps it would be used much less often by the time a base was able to "Life Off The Land" more.

I might seem a bit of a traitor, but I think that down the line, a smaller ship like Terran-R might be used to transport people from Moon Orbit<>Lunar Surface. They are not yet going to be recovering the 2nd stage so it might as well become a Lunar Lander.

That is how I see it anyway. The sort of Starship system I have mentioned to get lots of materials delivered to the Moon, and Terran-R as a human transport. Of course, if it turns out the Moon will have a lot of population, a Starship that could carry 100 people might make sense for the Moon, but that is likely a long way off.

Done.

If you are wondering what this is doing in the Terraforming section, I will say that this is a "Para Terraforming" method for the Moon. Manipulating objects from one place to another is required to do it.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-09-01 10:05:45)

Void · 2023-09-01 11:04:11

Diagram: https://www.humanmars.net/2020/07/cutaw … rship.html
Image Quote: SpaceX%2BLunar%2BStarship%2Bcutaway%2Bdiagram%2Bby%2BRocket%2BPosters_full_humanMars.net.jpg

So, for the use I suggested in the previous post, you would make the cabin section detachable. That could go into making space stations, and the propulsion section could be use separately, possibly for Moon landings.

Of course, if you were to do this then you have to solve the regolith vs. Raptors ejecta problems, either with good landing pads, or you have to move the landing engines for the Lunar Starship to the top of the Methane Tank, perhaps.

There is some hope that eventually the raptors will be able to throttle down more, so that is another possible solution.

Also, of course the Header tanks need to be in the engine section.

An alternate work around for that would be thermal insulation on the outside of the tanks, so since the ship would be making many quick trips up and down, it might be useful to load the Oxygen tank full and bring Oxygen from the Moon up to a depot, for shipment to LEO by a very insulated or actively cooled Oxygen Depot.

And a ship like this might also lift cargo up such as metals perhaps.

And so, then you would be at the point where you were exporting materials from the Moon. I would think that Electric Argon might be used to ferry that back to LEO.

I have suggested that the landing legs be left behind with each assent to orbit. The device without a cabin, will be less topple prone, so that allows a smaller landing legs assembly. Furthermore, if the cargoes are mostly attached to the landing legs that also makes for a more bottom-heavy landing.

The only complication on landing would be loading Oxygen into the ship, and I suppose hanging cargo bundles off the bottom end of the ship prior to assent.

Balancing loads of course will be important and so may restrict types of loads.

To put a load on top of the engine section may be possible both for landing and assent, but of course that has it complications as well.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-01 11:18:45)

Void · 2023-09-01 12:36:47

Oh, the evils of SSTO!

https://space.stackexchange.com/questio … 22-to-9-en

Well, for what I mentioned in the last post, might support it. I would guess that like a Falcon Launch you might even shed the fairings, (If you split them).

So, then the engine section could go to orbit. No heat shield, no flaps. alternately maybe the fairings could go to orbit.

The reason I am looking at this again, is Stage '0'. If such as this could be mass produced and be launched from spaceports that will not support a full stacked Starship, with Super Heavy boost, then there could be value in this action.

Supposing these Engine sections could function for the Moon, after being transported to orbit of the Moon by electric rocket, then depending on the value of the results of using them to ship materials to and from the Moon, it might be economically reasonable.

Even so, I do understand that Starship with Superheavy has a very large value.

But as I said, if the version I mentioned could be mass produced for a reasonable price, then the utility of these as a tool in orbit might justify SSTO.

As for the Cabins, I guess they could perhaps help build space stations, or the materials may be propellant for something like the Neumann Drive. But the Propulsion Section SSTO would be the big potential, I think.

I also wonder if upon reaching orbit different engines could replace the raptors. There are some rocket companies developing smaller Metha lox engines that might work. Just another weird question. Of course, I would expect the raptors to be brought back down for reuse.

I like to peak around corners sometimes and see if I can catch a glimpse of something of interest.

These are all maybes.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-01 12:45:02)

Void · 2023-09-01 18:28:11

For such a Moon ship, I wonder if forced boiloff could be a convenience?

Where you might be able to wrap some insulation around the tanks from materials from the moon, that might be useful. Then forget about header tanks, as this ship is going to be going up and down repeatedly, not to Mars.

But the forced boiloff would be to pull a greater partial vacuum on the propellant tanks to make them flash cool off, so the propellant will be cold enough for the engines and to keep the propellant compacted.

The vapors pulled off could go to a fuel cell? or a MG Set, or to thrusters.

Eliminating the header tanks simplifies the machine and reduces dry mass perhaps.

So, I know that a lot of people are allergic to SSTO, so considering the Full Stack:

-The Super Heavy does what it is designed for.
-The Starship is "Naked" and is two sections. The Locomotion section, having engines and propellant tanks, and the Fairings Section.
-The Fairing section can contain payload. For instance, maybe Methane, or hardware. -
-The "Locomotive" goes to the Moon by way of Electric Rocket perhaps.
-The Faring's might be incorporated into a Space Station, as a habitat section, or it might be cannibalized for its materials to serve another purpose.

This could have been done with Falcon 9 1st and 2nd stages, but it is soon to become outdated hardware perhaps.

Now the question could be are the materials that can be extracted from the Moon worth the effort?

This video from post #1278 again suggests that it could be.

I generally support much of what Isaac Arthur has to say here: https://www.reddit.com/r/IsaacArthur/co … onization/
Quote:
r/IsaacArthur
•
3 hr. ago
by
IsaacArthur
Near Term Space Colonization

Although I favor robots for work on the Moon, some human presence seems very likely.

For water, if the "Locomotive" lands, it may land with excess Methane or if during forced boiloff water and CO2 were produced, the water and the CO2 or Carbon extracted could be of use on the Moons surface.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-01 18:40:36)

Void · 2023-09-02 19:50:13

I have had more thoughts about this: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 73#p213173
Quote:

I suppose it is not impossible that it could be used for construction on the Moon:

I feel that you could have alternating segments of hot and cold, and I suppose between the neutral sections.

It is late and perhaps later I will elaborate about insulation.

But you could have heat engines. You could have movable panels like scales on a snake. For the cold section to open at night, and for the hot section to open in the day. And I suppose other methods to heat the hot side.

For the Moon this might work well. You could have a pressurized tube inside of the arch for living space. I would be passage, habitat, and heat engine. Radiation protection, and the pressurized section may be able to use the arch to help it hold pressure even though the gap between the tube and the arch would be some level of air pressure suitable for insulation. Rather a vacuum perhaps. Joiners would connect the inside of the arch to the outside of the pressurized space and convey the force to the arch.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-02 19:56:57)

Void · 2023-09-03 18:53:34

This post will be somewhat redundant to the just previous one.

These structures could resemble sausage links for instance.

So alternate ones would be hot and cold. The junction points between them might have heat pumps with higher level life support habitats.

There would be many options.

How much of this? Well that will depend on how useful they are.

I have not been too specific about how the hot sides are heated as there can be many ways. The cold side I think may have a combination of Aluminum radiator fins of metal, and mobile solar shades for daytime.

Done.

I currently favor CO2 as the working fluid for heat engines, as I feel that Carbon can be hard landed to the Moon from external sources, and Oxygen is available locally.

Of course, there may well be Carbon Compounds in the Shadowed craters.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-03 19:13:50)

Void · 2023-09-04 06:26:19

This diagram imagines a Multi-Shell Structure floating in space. If you took a part of it you might make a weighted dome on a world like the Moon.

You may suppose that the brown shell might be made of sintered bulk materials, and it might have a Corset-Like restraining shell around it and also some thermal control methods such as radiator fins, solar collectors, and thermal insulation.

The shell and shells are intended to store thermal energy, separate higher pressure from lower pressures, and also radiation protection. And I suppose some protection from impactors is provided.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-09-04 06:30:47)

Void · 2023-09-04 06:34:04

Volatile management:

As an example, for the Moon, it might make sense eventually to surround the Moon with a magnetic net to catch the solar wind, and to prohibit the solar wind from sweeping items like H20 and CO2 away from the Moon. The Shadowed Craters would then tend to collect what is retained as condensation.

The Structures on the Moon will tend to leak, we hope only slowly. Chemical Rockets and Industry will outgas Volatiles so
the magnetic net will help to recover those losses.

Mining terrestrial planets may provide materials to the Moon wanted on the Moon. So, might asteroids and also some comets.

Comet Mining by Isaac Arthur: https://isaacarthur.net/video/comet-mining/

Isaac Arthur has indicated a video to come about mining atmospheres. I am looking forward to it. For example, Venus has pretty much everything we might want to bring to the Moon. Nitrogen, Carbon, Hydrogen, Maybe Sulfur.

It also has some Argon, although much more diluted than the case for Earth and Mars.

Propulsion assisted by Photons and the Solar Wind would be helpful to get the substances to the Moon.

If gravitation would not be healthy for humans on the Moon, then I suppose space stations near the Moon might be the thing to do.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-04 06:39:16)

Void · 2023-09-06 06:32:17

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riLu7WZidf4
Quote:

Elon Musk Disclosed New 9 Raptor Engines of Starship! Elon Musk ERA
Elon Musk ERA

So, this may bring the up mass to 220 tons, when the 6 engine version is expected to lift 150 tons.

So, a reduction in refilling launches. May be possible.

In reality, if Argon propulsion were created as a practical method, then a Starship might be pushed to a Moon orbit with little use of Metha Lox propulsion for that task. LEO>Moon Orbit.

A Methane Depot similarly moved to Lunar Orbit, then if you could refill in Lunar Orbit with Lunar Oxygen.

So, eventually this might be the main way to get Mass to other worlds such as Mars.

About SpaceX and Argon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLqxwH83UwM
Quote:

SpaceX New Argon Based Ion Propulsion Technology!
Terran Space Academy
24.5K subscribers

Argon propulsion has more greatly interested me as it might be associated with Nuclear Fission power.

I guess solar is not forbidden, but I suppose Nuclear is worth developing at this point.

Earths atmosphere is 1% Argon.
Mars atmosphere is 1.6% Argon.

Claims that 1 Starship tanker may be enough to go to Mars, I think. Presuming Nuclear Thermal and Nuclear Ion propulsion methods.

It is possible that Argon can be obtained from the Moon, but it is not certain yet:
https://telanganatoday.com/distribution … 40-on-moon
https://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Argo … in%20place.
Quote:

Temperatures are so low that argon would be frozen solid. This could help these regions to retain more argon than the hotter regions of the Moon, because argon gas escaping from rocks over a long period could simply freeze in place.

So, that looks like a strong maybe.

I am increasingly interested in Starship SSTO. The raptors are being made better, and I think that the "Stretched" Starship will have to fight air drag a bit less.

Elon Musk said some time ago that a Starship without legs, flaps, and heat shield might just do it. And so it was dismissed as there was now capacity for payload.

But now in my view if you consider the "Locomotive" of the Starship as the payload that you may use in space, maybe it can make sense. I can think of 3 ways to dispose of the fairings from the assembly. It might be nice if you could bring that section to orbit and then repurpose it.

But you could shed them as Falcon 9 2nd stage does. You may or may not recover them as is done for Falcon 9 Fairings.

So, then I think the Stretched Starship may be able to get it's Locomotive into orbit. Then a tug could tow it to the Moon for use there.

This would be possible to launch from many more launch sites than would be true for Starship Full Stack. Such launch sites will not need the special launch tower with catching methods.

What about Multi Staging Starships? This could be done for chemical propulsion and for Argon propulsion.

You could do staging in orbital situations. This maneuver would greatly extend the capabilities for some possible places in the solar system.

If you are thinking of using Nuclear Fission power, then you could line up a string of Starships as Argon Tankers, and perhaps with a bit of chemical propulsion capabilities.

Also perhaps "Boosters" shed on a trip to Mars, might just be able to do a free return type of method.

Just saying, there may be some tricks to find. Not saying that they are always worth doing.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-07 06:16:01)

Void · 2023-09-07 06:16:28

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 33#p213333
I have this this morning: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 35#p213335
Quote:

An interesting article Mars_B4_Moon.
Given time, energy, and the ability to manipulate objects, eventually the Moon could be converted into an alternate world. But sometimes there may be an "Alien" solution to a problem.
,
Supposing it was desired to inhabit parts of the Moon early on, machinery in orbit could project energy to those parts in the dark periods.
That could be microwaves and also lasers and most particularly light reflections from mirrors. I would say that this could be very valuable to make things easier.
Here is a quick try:
It is more a schematic and not, of course a engineering diagram of any precision.
Done.

So, if we really wanted 24/7 lighted parks on the Moon, it may be possible/affordable, I think.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-09-07 06:20:18)

Void · 2023-09-07 06:26:17

The Angry Astronaut had this today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9UA0duyTtk
Quote:

We were wrong about the Moon!! India discovers that Lunar Colonization is easier than we thought!
The Angry Astronaut
117K subscribers
Joi

70 millimeters = 2.75590551 inches. (It is easier for me to visualize).

Of course, sometimes we want to shed heat.

I do have this about a "Lunar Cycler": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_cycler

Of course, I lean much more towards robotics on the Moon, but yes over time perhaps more and more humans? Could be.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-09-07 06:47:04)

Void · 2023-09-07 08:49:28

Angry Astronaut mentioned Starship Fairings as habitat on the Moon:

The above is a block diagram as seen from above.

Much easier to unhook the Fairings in orbit and then configure a landing device from 3 or 4 items.

2 Fairings and One Locomotive or 2 Fairings and 2 Locomotives.

The Starship "Locomotive Skirt" could perhaps host engines from other space companies, perhaps Neutron or Terran-R, or perhaps Raptor will become able to throttle down so as to not knock rocks into orbit.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-07 09:25:36)

Void · 2023-09-07 09:28:48

I want to offer an opinion about the dispute between Mars as a target or the Moon as a target.

If rocket companies have a reason to make spaceships and hardware for the Moon, then this could drop the price of those needed for Mars.

I am not at all thinking that Mars waits for the Moon. They move in parallel.

But if it proves true that materials can be had from the Moon, that can support missions to Mars and the asteroids, I believe.

So, later on, much more materials for Mars could come from the Moon.

But that does not indicate that we wait for Mars until then.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-07 09:30:54)

Void · 2023-09-07 09:33:32

As for Starship fairings landed on the Moon,

They might have wheels put under them and be moved after landing.

A radiation shelter might be put inside of them with Lunar materials.

Eventually they might be partially covered over with fabrications from Lunar Materials.

I don't think they would be laid on their side but be kept upright.

Done.

Some visualization with this: https://designfreedom.space/starship-interior/

https://www.teslarati.com/spacex-nasa-l … wed-tests/
Image Quote: Starship-Boca-Chica-102320-NASASpaceflight-bocachicagal-SN5-HLS-mockup-nose-render-1-c-1536x722.jpg

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ajaxhist=0

https://www.reddit.com/r/StarshipDevelo … ne_mockup/
Image Quote ???: 5ihyzax4xou51.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=478feeac0794bb0af734a4d450cf4612a9c1f00a

https://www.reddit.com/r/SpaceXLounge/c … n_concept/

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-09-07 10:02:22)

Void · 2023-09-07 10:34:12

So, it seems to me that ways to drop heavy loads onto the Moon's surface are possible.

I agree with others that at times Starship can be overkill, after that.

Not saying don't use it, just not all the time for the Moon.

I anticipate that Terran-R 2nd stage might make a good smaller lander.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terran_R

I don't think that they intend to recover the 2nd stage at first, at least. But that does not indicate that it could not be converted to a Moon lander.

Quote:

Versions
Original Proposed Version 2021
The Terran R was first publicly announced on 8 June 2021 after the company raised US$650 million in funding.[3] Terran R was an evolution of the Terran 1, and at this time, it was to be 3D printed, fully reusable, including second stage and fairings.[3] This version was capable of putting 20,000 kg (44,000 lb) into low-Earth orbit (LEO) in recoverable configuration.[4]
2023 Version
On 12 April 2023, after the first flight of the Terran 1, Relativity Space CEO Tim Ellis announced that the rocket was no longer going to be further developed and focus would move to Terran R.[4] The new version of the rocket will have a maximum payload capacity of 23,500 kg (51,800 lb) to LEO with a fully reusable first stage, and 33,500 kg (73,900 lb) to LEO if fully expended.[5]
The first stage will use 13 Aeon R engines, producing an estimated thrust of 14.9 MN (3,350,000 lbs) in total.[1] The second stage will use an upgraded Aeon R Vac engine and will be expended, along with the fairings.[5]
Ellis has compared the design of Terran R to SpaceX's Falcon 9 launch vehicle.[6] With this design, Relativity is aiming to significantly exceed the Falcon 9 payload to LEO, with a target payload mass of approximately 33.5 tonnes (73,900 lb) in fully expended mode.[5]
In July 2022, Relativity announced a partnership with Impulse Space to send a payload to Mars on the first Terran R flight,[7] which is expected to occur in 2026.[1]

So, this could come close to a "Mini-Starship", but for now just for the Moon perhaps, no heat shield.

So, with some type of Lunar Starship(s), and some type of Terran-R(s), you could set up a significant base quickly with Starships, and then maintain it low key with Terran-R. Until it is decided to develop the Moon for resources which may help with the Mars effort.

I think that resources will be wanted, but I suppose I think that we have to plan for a research stage to prove out the basic things that are supposed to be possible.

Anyway Terran-R would be good for dropping down in other locations on the Moon for research.

I am going to guess that a Terran-R will require much less for propellants than will Starship.

And who knows maybe 2nd Stage of Neutron could be revised/repurposed to drop robots into locations on the Moon.

I think that humanoid robots in wheelchairs (Carts), might work OK on the Moon, and they may shelter from the cold of night and heat of day inside of the Fairings shelter from the Starships.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-07 10:45:33)

Void · 2023-09-09 08:22:22

Just for fun, I am going to float the idea of a Catcher/Catapult pad on the Moon.

Aircraft Carriers have such devices for working with aircraft. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_catapult
Quote:

An aircraft catapult is a device used to allow aircraft to take off in a limited distance, typically from the deck of a vessel. They can also be installed on land-based runways, although this is rarely done. They are usually used on aircraft carriers as a form of assisted take off. In the form used on aircraft carriers the … See more

I was and still am looking for a soft-landing pad for a spacecraft, but it occurs that the same device may also give a little boost to a spacecraft launching.

I would not trust this method as a normal means to land a human.

Before the reader might dismiss this as absurd, keep in mind that a Falcon 9 1st stage often can land on a barge in the sea.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Fa … ORM%3DVDRE

In the case of landing on the Moon with powerful engines there is a large concern about ejecting regolith. This could damage local structure and also even launch materials into orbit. Those are not desired results. So, landing pads are wanted, and also even special landing engines.

This was stimulated by this post of Caliban: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 84#p213384
Quote:

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 2,785
Email
Regarding the dropping of things onto the lunar surface without the use of rockets. We have a planet with no atmosphere and no magnetic field to speak of. How about slowing payloads down by deploying some sort of parachute and having a ground based plasma accelerator fire a beam of ions at the incoming parachute? Maybe something that is easily ionised like potassium, accelerated using an electrostatic accelerator? Multiple accelerators would aim at the incoming parachute, creating a plasma wind that decelerates it.
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

Not the same idea at all but in the family of assisted spaceflight on the Moon, I would say.

I have had several ideas related to that, and the idea of a catcher/launcher, but I will try to mention a simple one.

A platform to land on supported by inflated bags of Argon.

Somewhat like the Octa Grabber, also include robotic arms on top of the platform that can reach up and grab the bottom of a descending rocket and provide some shock absorption as it descends. Again, the shock absorbers could be Argon/Piston. Of course, this is not a complete description of such a machine, but it can give notions for a start of discussions.

The platform should protect the ship from a harder landing. The compressed Argon Bags should help to lift the ship when it takes off.

This could be true in the use of tail engines or as proposed for the Lunar Starship engines that run on gas phase propellants mounted on the sides of the rocket.

And from here we might try to add features like catapult methods as well perhaps. Like Aircraft Carriers, Mass Driver Magnetics, and perhaps even ancient mechanical methods: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catapult
Image Quote:

Basic diagram of an Onager, a type of catapult

Gravity? Springs? Windup?

Pistons?

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-09-09 08:55:56)

Void · 2023-09-09 10:44:35

Continuing on the previous post, I anticipate the use of Metha Lox, but others could be considered. Hydro Lox might also be used.

I am interested also in Hot Carbon and Oxygen, but there are not suitable engines for that so far. I hope they can be investigated.

In the case of Carbon, it might be hard dropped from the transport just prior to landing on the platform. It only has to survive as Carbon, and not scatter too far, and it might be recovered for use. This process would lighten the Lander prior to contacting the catcher platform.

Carbon preheated electrically for launch would then be the fuel to launch on.

But for now, I think that the "Locomotive" of a Starship would be used as the transport and would be Metha Lox.

The reliability of the Falcon 9 1st stage suggests that the occurrence of crashes can be kept to a minimum. While a landing ship might carry lots of Methane down, it would have a minimal excess of Oxygen. The ship launching might be very filled with Oxygen but with only enough Methane to achieve a minimal orbit of the Moon. I anticipate that Methane will at least at first come from Earth. But if Lunar Resources allow it then some might be manufactured on the Moon. And materials from asteroids, or even Mars/Phobos/Deimos might eventually show up.

The question of a Lunar atmosphere emerges, if all this rocket exhaust is being pushed into the Lunar environment. Probably a very thin one, but perhaps useful and even a resource.

The idea of a magnetosphere for the Moon may sound expensive, but if it helps rocket exhaust and industrial leaks, and natural leakage of gasses like Argon to stay in the Lunar environment it may be worth it.

Many gasses like CO2, CO, H20, and Argon may freeze out in the polar craters, but then they can be obtained again.
Some CO2 and H20 are likely to have Oxygen atoms knocked off of them by radiation in the environment.

Oxygen is not likely to freeze out at the poles.

If there is an industry to produce Oxygen in large quantities, I anticipate the above type of additions to a Lunar atmosphere, and also leakage from the process itself. The process would also make metals and glasses, and presumably solar panels.

If the Oxygen levels, get higher than desired the excess Oxygen might be pumped out for use as rocket propellants and export.

If a magnetic field is to be used, I think it should be made leaky so that the solar wind could add things to the Moon but not take things away.

The Solar Wind can give and take from the atmosphere of Mercury, I seems: https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/mess … adoes.html
Quote:

Mercury's atmosphere is so thin, it would have vanished long ago unless something was replenishing it," says Dr. James A. Slavin of NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md., a co-investigator on NASA's MESSENGER mission to Mercury. That something could be the solar wind, a thin gas of electrically charged particles, called a plasma, which blows constantly from the surface of the sun.

We probably want to figure out how to let the solar wind give to the Moons atmosphere, but not let it take from the Moons atmosphere.

So, my hope is that the Moon can become an exporter of Oxygen, Metals, glass, and such, maybe even energy. And while this occurs an atmosphere would develop and become a resource in itself.

Catapults and catchers as launch pads may help this just a little bit. Other tricks may be considered as well to make Exports more efficient.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-09-09 11:11:36)

Void · 2023-09-09 11:38:27

We sometimes consider our Moon and Mercury to have some similarities.

Anton Petrov has had some interesting video's about Mercury:

Query: "anton petrov youtube, Mercury"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=anton+pet … cc=0&ghpl=

A nice Video: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=an … &FORM=VIRE Quote:

It Seems Even Mercury Was Habitable And Possibly Had Life
YouTube96.9K viewsApr 3, 2020
Anton Petrov

Some tricks for the Moon or Mercury may work for either.

Maybe export methods and atmosphere/magnetosphere control, as mentioned in the two just previous posts.

Done.

I think exports to our Moon could come from any terrestrial planet, some asteroids, and maybe even some comets.

So perhaps if we have access to things at and inside Jupiter, we may also have access to some comets. I think this is worth another look.

https://isaacarthur.net/video/comet-mining/
Quote:

Comet Mining
Aug 17, 2023

I am in favor of trying to access all the terrestrial planets and then some more, including out Moon.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-09-09 12:07:35)

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