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#1 2022-05-08 10:02:07
- tahanson43206
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- Registered: 2018-04-27
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Dirigible on Earth or Mars
For SpaceNut...
A search for the word "dirigible" in topics gave a null result.
There is history to be noted.
There is new work under way.
This topic is available for members who might wish to add links, images or comments about dirigibles.
Extensive work has been done in this forum, to study the parameters of how dirigibles might work on Mars.
The atmosphere is less dense than Earth (by quite a margin) but the gravity is less, so (as I recall the earlier work) dirigibles using hydrogen would work on Mars.
They would be quite large (of course) but they would be quite reliable.
On Earth, dirigibles have fallen victim to weather, but the conditions are more favorable on Mars.
(th)
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#2 2022-05-08 12:47:59
- Mars_B4_Moon
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Re: Dirigible on Earth or Mars
I've come across the Balloon, Aircraft or Air - Ship topic on newmars a few times. I think it was mostly considered a fringe subject until the tech for Ingenuity aka nicknamed Ginny and scouting Mars by helicopter was proven real.
The search engine is good but not always the best, like going through synonymous thesaurus for different nouns or English singular plural worksheet 'Dirigibles' perhaps is a different search result to Dirigible
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=3509
'Traffic Control at Mars'
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=9848
the same tech applies
This venus ship can be altered for Mars
re-design for Mars?
Two things to remember about dirigibles on Mars: (1) since the atmosphere is 1% as dense, the dirigibles need 100 times the volume to achieve the same lift, wich means they need about 5 times the height, width, and depth of a terrestrial dirigible; and (2) hydrogen burns in CO2, so a lightning strike could cause a Hindenberg-style disaster, though probably rather slowly.
-- RobS
Lightning on Mars? That's something I've never heard of.
So Mars Does Not or Does Have Lightning... naturally occurring electrostatic Lightning discharge seems to possibly happen on all the Moons and Planets with atmospheric movement, hundreds of erupting volcanoes gushing tons of molten lava and sulfurous gases on Io possibly have lighting and Titan possibly has lightning, a strike or spark during which two electrically charged regions, both in the atmosphere or with one on the ground, temporarily neutralize themselves. Lightning has been observed within the atmospheres of other planets, such as Jupiter and Saturn, the Soviet program might have seen lightning on Venus but the results are controversial and Radio pulses recorded by the spacecraft Venus Express which began orbiting Venus in April 2006 may originate from lightning on Venus. .
How to avoid helium shortages, electric shorts and pricing issues?
Hydrogen could be a choice.
Also studied in exploration of Titan, a Better than Zeppelin Airship; new Dirigible Balloon for Titan or Venus or Mars, they said the new design has a Semi-Flexible Body and can build one of those floating cities like you find in StarTrek or StarWars or so those scifi writers claimed, it wasn't just a thing of scifi NASA scientists had a look at this
In 1983, NASA contractor Science Applications, Inc. proposed a half-dozen missions to Saturn's mysterious moon Titan. Space historian and Beyond Apollo blogger David S. F. Portree describes the blimps, buoys, and air-launched sounding rockets of SAI's unflown Titan exploration program.
https://www.wired.com/2012/04/beyond-ca … 326e13d116
Research
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio … p_Surveyor
Scifi Artwork of a dirigible
https://www.alamy.com/dirigible-explori … 57aea35199
Google Co-Founder Sergey Brin's Secret Airship
https://www.popularmechanics.com/flight … n-airship/
'Ascenders are Vee shaped airships. They are used for research, telecommunications
and ultimately space launch vehicles replacing rocket.'
http://www.jpaerospace.com/ascender175.html
Hybrid vehicle?
'We believe that aviation can and must deliver sustainable solutions to the challenges facing the modern world. By connecting the unconnected, Airlander offers a new choice, and one that is the future of zero-carbon aviation.'
https://www.hybridairvehicles.com/about-us/our-mission/
Titan Airship Surveyor
Saturn's moon Titan is considered to be one of the prime candidates for studying prebiotic materials - the substances that precede the formation of life but have disappeared from the Earth as a result of the evolution of life.
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/20010041249
A unique combination of a dense, predominantly nitrogen, atmosphere (more than four times that of the Earth), low gravity (six times less than on the Earth) and small temperature variations makes Titan the almost ideal planet for studies with lighter-than-air aerial platforms (aerobots). Moreover, since methane clouds and photochemical haze obscure the surface, low-altitude aerial platforms are the only practical means that can provide global mapping of the Titan surface at visible and infrared wavelengths. One major challenge in Titan exploration is the extremely cold atmosphere (approx. 90 K). However, current material technology the capability to operate aerobots at these very low temperatures.
Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-05-08 13:04:40)
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#3 2022-05-08 13:59:59
- tahanson43206
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Re: Dirigible on Earth or Mars
For Mars_B4_Moon re #2
Thanks ** very ** much for giving this new topic such a resounding start!
As usual, some of the links you found were new (to me for sure) and hopefully they will be of interest to other readers.
I am hoping this topic provides a landing site for additional creative thinking by NewMars members.
The problem I am trying to address with focus-topics is the diffuse nature of the forum environment.
The only tools we have to collect information is tags (which almost no one uses) and topic titles.
I am specifically looking for a water transport solution for Mars that features the buoyancy of Hydrogen, and the need to move mined water great distances at low expense.
My ** hope ** is that creative thinkers will produce scenarios that are similar to the ongoing drone water delivery concept for Earth, but adapted for Mars.
(th)
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#4 2022-06-17 06:10:01
- Mars_B4_Moon
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Re: Dirigible on Earth or Mars
Air Nostrum, an European airline, just ordered a fleet of airships
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#5 2022-08-14 04:53:03
- Mars_B4_Moon
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Re: Dirigible on Earth or Mars
Faster, cheaper, greener: Are drone deliveries the future of logistics?
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/faster-cheape … 14916.html
Designing A Drone To Fire From A Grenade Launcher
https://hackaday.com/2019/06/06/designi … -launcher/
Airbus test A400M in ‘water bomber’ role
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/airbus- … mber-role/
NASA Will Send a Fleet of Helicopter Drones to Fly Over Mars
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/nasa-send-fle … 43232.html
How balloons could one day detect quakes on Venus
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/bal … us-geology
The balloon was floating over the Pacific Ocean when the first sound waves hit. For 11 seconds, a tiny device dangling beneath the large, transparent balloon recorded sudden, jerky fluctuations in air pressure: echoes of an earthquake more than 2,800 kilometers away
The finding could help scientists track earthquakes in remote areas on Earth, and also opens the door to one day sending specially equipped balloons to study the geology of other worlds, including our closest planetary neighbor.
“Venus is the sister planet of Earth, but it’s the evil twin sister,” says David Mimoun, a planetary scientist at the University of Toulouse in France. “We don’t know why the two planets are so different. That’s why we need measurements.”
NASA's Dragonfly is a planned spacecraft a mission sending a robotic rotorcraft to the surface of Titan, the largest moon of Saturn. It would be the first aircraft on Titan and is intended to make the first powered and fully controlled atmospheric flight on any moon, with the intention of studying prebiotic chemistry and extraterrestrial habitability. It will then use its vertical takeoffs and landings (VTOL) capability to move between exploration sites.
Reprise of the airship
https://www.designnews.com/aerospace/reprise-airship
Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-08-14 05:17:31)
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#6 2022-08-14 08:04:45
- tahanson43206
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Re: Dirigible on Earth or Mars
For Mars_B4_Moon re #5
Thanks for finding and posting the link to Design News about the state of lighter-than-air vehicles in 1997. The author added plenty of data to mix with his personal observations. If you run across an update I'd definitely be interested. This is a slow moving field (as befits the nature of the machines), but there may have been a bit of progress. The Flying Bum design has been in development in England for several years, and I have seen hints of possible commercial interest in the vehicles for remote parts of the world where they would be superior to sea borne vehicles, and where airfields are difficult to establish and to maintain.
As a side note, Design News appears to be a publication that might be interested in the Large Ship and it's variants.
A vessel for space service that provides artificial gravity (synthetic as Void would say) ** will ** come into existence at some point, and it seems to me the Mars Society is as logical a place as any for the concept to spring into being, and swell into a ** Real Universe ** manifestation.
(th)
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#7 2023-01-29 11:43:34
- SpaceNut
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Re: Dirigible on Earth or Mars
We also have the cloud city balloon of Venus topic as well.
Sky Yachting Is Coming: How Luxury Airships Are Bringing the Pleasures of Cruising to the Skies
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#8 2023-02-15 13:22:12
- tahanson43206
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Re: Dirigible on Earth or Mars
In recent days, members of the NewMars forum have exchanged correspondence about the technical challenge of dealing with (detecting - inspecting - capture - destruction) of high altitude balloons entering US air space, above the ceiling of manned aircraft.
It is perfectly feasible in today's age, to fly an ultra-light-weight ** very ** intelligent, maneuverable dirigible for defense purposes.
I recommend hydrogen as the lifting gas, since this will be a robotic mission, and the intention is for the vehicle to fly continuously for years, with only occasional resupply.
While the vehicle will be located in a constantly moving atmosphere, it should be able to change elevation so as to maintain position (more or less).
Solar power would seem appropriate for this vehicle.
It would be designed to maneuver toward (or away from) objects of interest.
There could be as many of these flying as the US can afford.
Communication would flow from the ground, flying vehicles, and satellites.
(th)
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#9 2023-08-09 09:05:47
- Mars_B4_Moon
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Re: Dirigible on Earth or Mars
NASA’s ComPair balloon instrument in preparation for its scheduled flight in August 2023 as part of NASA’s fall balloon campaign to test new technologies for studying gamma rays.
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