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#1 2021-04-03 18:05:07

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 16,756

Traffic Control at Mars

Recent discussion of details of package delivery to the surface of Mars has brought into focus the need for traffic control in the vicinity of Mars.

The skies over the Earth are populated by numerous objects that have been launched by numerous nations without regard for anyone else.

Recently a piece of a SpaceX rocket landed on a farm in the US.  While no damage was done (except for a reported 4 inch dent in the soil) that was just a lucky circumstance.  Eventually a piece of a rocket or its payload is going to hurt a person or do significant damage to property or both.

On Mars, while there is no one (from Earth) on site, there is little need to worry much about where objects land.

However, the Ballistic Delivery topic envisions precise delivery of non-perishable payloads without use of parachutes.

While the delivery vehicle can be expected to have some ability to steer itself, the fact remains that after launch from Earth, the package will arrive at Mars one way or another.  If the onboard electronics and control systems are not up to the task set for them, or if initial launch conditions are in error, then packages may arrive long distances from their intended destination, or cause damage to structures on the ground, or both.

Thus, the purpose of this topic is to attempt to identify the characteristics of a traffic control system (and conventions) for Mars.

(th)

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#2 2021-04-03 20:27:10

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,750

Re: Traffic Control at Mars

The issue is response time to warning system that would be the problem to identify those that need to seek shelter or to evacuate a particular location.

SpaceX rocket debris found in Washington state after streaks in night skyBB1eZDRA.img?h=450&w=799&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f

Of course this is the unexpected debris fallout which is different from a clear zone area around a landing area where the impact is expected to exist.

Now the near ground explosion of sn11
106861502-16171148002021-03-30t142654z_535863204_rc2qlm9ohzhf_rtrmadp_0_space-exploration-spacex.jpeg?v=1617114844&w=630&h=354

A spectator holds a piece of debris which was blown 5 miles (8 km) from the site where SpaceX test rocket SN11 exploded upon landing, in Boca Chica, Texas, March 30, 2021.

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#3 2021-04-04 07:24:58

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 16,756

Re: Traffic Control at Mars

For SpaceNut re #2

Thanks for giving this new topic a running start!   Because the Ballistic Delivery topic is discussing shipment of non-perishable materials to Mars for delivery without parachutes, the management of traffic movement for such vessels is not a theoretical concern.  I'd like to see this concept develop into a major and recognized industry, and management of traffic flow is going to be important.  The possibility you cited in your post, of having to advise Mars residents to seek shelter to avoid injury due to an arriving shipment that is off course seems quite real to me.  On Earth, we already have the need for such a warning system, but to the best of my knowledge, it is limited right now to very large ellipses of possible object landing sites.  In the case of an industry involving delivery of packages without parachutes, the delivery vehicles themselves need to be extremely reliable, but able to report position accurately in any case, so that if they are off track for any reason the down field destination occupants can take cover if necessary.

On Earth we already have occasional unplanned descents of moving objects onto fixed terrain.  These events are rare enough so they are considered newsworthy.  On Mars, (hopefully) an off course vessel event (whether for a package or for people) would be quite rare as well, but inevitably such events will occur.

(th)

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#4 2021-04-04 08:51:14

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,750

Re: Traffic Control at Mars

The main issue for ballistic is site chosen for landing is how large the site will be as they have been kilometer ellipses, how often are the interval between landings and how long will the site take to cleanup between them of which it is assumed it will vary depending on cargo type, damage to the container ect.

here is that targeting of zone currently with the last 4  missions of Nasa
25490_2a-Ellipse-Map_v3_FullAnnotation-web.jpg
https://mars.nasa.gov/resources/25490/z … he-target/

Of course that was with the dreaded parachutes being used....

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#5 2021-04-04 10:12:56

GW Johnson
Member
From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 5,423
Website

Re: Traffic Control at Mars

What we have known for decades and chosen not to admit,  is that entry burnup of space debris is more myth than fact.  We have known that since a piece of interior plumbing from John Glenn's Atlas booster washed up on an African beach after his Mercury flight in 1962.  The old original Atlas was a thin stainless balloon that would collapse under its own weight if not pressurized.  That thin balloon "protected" the piece of plumbing from burning during entry,  so it was identified by its part serial number.

I would also point to the tons of debris,  interior items,  and body parts recovered on the ground between Dallas and Tyler,  Texas,  after shuttle Columbia broke up at approximately Mach 12 at approximately 50 miles,  over the Texas-New Mexico border.

I would also point to the 75 tons of debris recovered of the 90-tons-at-entry Skylab space station that crashed in western Australia in 1979.

Just something to think about. 

GW


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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#6 2021-04-04 11:17:36

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 16,756

Re: Traffic Control at Mars

For GW Johnson ... thank you for your contribution to and support of this new topic.

I will try to steer it (with the help of forum members) in the direction of creating policy for the human endeavor to settle Mars.

We have seen early hints of what is not only possible but absolutely necessary, in the (limited) interaction between the Chinese space program and the US one.

That early, tentative, minimal interaction needs to be greatly increased and soon.

This forum is one of the few places on Earth where this idea will have surfaced, although I would imagine those involved in the Chinese/US interactions were aware of it as a subtext of their proceedings.

(th)

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#7 2021-05-23 07:18:06

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,898

Re: Traffic Control at Mars

Mars Ingenuity helicopter mission extended by NASA
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-56951752

It now has its own ICAO designator and a pilot logbook, flight (IGY-1), call sign (INGENUITY)
https://twitter.com/NASAJPL/status/1384216417239633926

'With five successful flights as of May 7, 2021, the battery-powered coaxial drone rotorcraft is serving as a technology demonstrator for the potential use of flying probes on future missions to Mars and other worlds, and will have the potential to scout locations of interest and support the future planning of driving routes for Mars rovers'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingenuity_(helicopter)

Perseverance rover will soon begin collecting samples from Mars
https://www.digitaltrends.com/news/mars … on-update/

Ingenuity's Next Flight on Mars Could Be Its Most Interesting Yet
https://gizmodo.com/ingenuitys-next-fli … 1846942528

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#8 2021-05-23 08:42:06

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,750

Re: Traffic Control at Mars

You are right with flying drones and incoming ballistic cargo we will need to up the levels of communication to such events.

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#9 2021-09-15 06:04:15

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,898

Re: Traffic Control at Mars

Chinese scientists eye hypersonic drone flight on Mars
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science … light-mars

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#10 2021-09-15 17:12:46

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,750

Re: Traffic Control at Mars

Unless the power to lift mass factors change dramatically the payloads are going to next to nothing other than ramming them into each other there is nothing to be gained.

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#11 2022-07-05 08:03:11

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,898

Re: Traffic Control at Mars

A swarm of Cruise robotaxis blocked San Francisco traffic for hours
https://www.engadget.com/cruise-driverl … 00451.html

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#12 2022-07-05 08:25:35

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 16,756

Re: Traffic Control at Mars

For Mars_B4_Moon ....

This topic was set up to (try at least to) focus attention on the opportunity and challenge of managing orbital traffic at Mars.

It has veered off into wildly unrelated (but I admit interesting) side jaunts.

Your most recent post, about the clogging of an intersection by autonomous taxis in San Francisco seems to be bringing the topic back closer to what I would like to see.  It seems to me we (humans) need both technology and cooperation.

Every object launched into orbit around Earth or that ends up in orbit or arriving at Mars needs to have an identification subsystem, and the operators/launchers of the object need to have the good will to let others know of their intended (and actual) path.

The situation is less severe at Mars in 2022, but the skies there will (hopefully) become more congested.

(th)

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#13 2022-08-25 04:35:27

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,898

Re: Traffic Control at Mars

NASA Mars Helicopter Pulls Off a Tiny Flight, Proves It's Still Airworthy After Vacation

https://www.cnet.com/science/space/nasa … reddit.com

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#14 2022-09-05 08:20:54

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,898

Re: Traffic Control at Mars

Flying might be the best way to transport materials to high hills, deep valley, high up Plateau, Low plains within huge circular impact basins, moving material and equipment from the Poles  and high up mountains

Compacted sand soil runway?

11 Different Types Soil Compaction Equipment: How to Select The Correct One
https://www.machinesl.com/soil-compaction-equipment/
Rammer are machine powered and hand steered small machines used for compacting small areas by providing an impact to the soil

Vibratory Tampers
The base plate installed on vibratory tampers is spring activated by an alternative mechanism driven by a motor.

Vibratory Plate Compactors
Vibratory plate compactors are particularly used on course soils like sand containing four to eight percent fine particles like clay.

Heavy Soil Compaction Equipment

These types of equipment are used particularly for compacting larger areas with different types of soils, which may require less or large compaction effort (force).

Heavy compaction equipment is selected based on the amount of moisture content in soil and type of soil.

Following equipment fall under the category of Heavy compaction equipment.

    Smooth wheels rollers
    Sheep foot rollers
    Elephant foot rollers
    Pneumatic tired rollers
    Wobble wheel roller
    Impact roller
    Grid rolls
    Pad foot/ presser rollers

Smooth Wheel Rollers
These types of rollers apply static compression on the soil underneath their rolls. These machines are triple wheeled vehicles. Front wheel is made of one large drum, while on the rear side there are two large drum wheels.

Sheep Foot Rollers
The sheep foot roller is also a vehicle similar to smooth wheel rollers. However, in contrast to a smooth drum used in smooth wheel rollers, these machines have a sheep’s foot or tamping roller in front. While on the rear side, they have tyres.

Elephant Foot Roller
A sheep foot roller is sometimes also termed as elephant foot roller, if the some of the feet are removed from the drum and are replaced with 20 to 25 cm wide flat plated welded on the remaining feet of the drum.

Pneumatic Tired Rollers
Pneumatic tired rollers consist of a platform mounted on two axles. The rear axle has one more wheel compare with the front axle. The total width of all the inflated tyres is approximately equal to 80% width of the rollers.

Wobble Wheel Roller
Wobble wheel roller are similar to pneumatic tired rollers except that their wheels are mounted at a slight angle with respect to their axle. This also allows to achieve slight kneading action.

Impact Roller
In impact rollers, a tractor pulls a prism shaped mass, made of steel or concrete. As a result of rotation of prism shaped mass, an impact is generated, which transfers sufficient energy to achieve medium compaction to a depth of several meters.

Grid Rollers
These rollers are made of cylindrical surfaces of steel grid formed by a network of steel bars. The grid is made of square holes. The weight of the grid can be achieved by adding ballast into the cylinder. Usually, their weight ranges from 5.5 tons to 15 tons with ballast added.

Pad Foot/Slash Presser Rollers
The roller is similar to sheep foot roller. However, they have lugs on their cylinders, which have larger area than the feet of sheep foot rollers.

On Earth

'Soil Stabilized Runways'
https://aggrebind.com/roads/soil-stabilized-runways/

Dirt roads or soil runways have loose gravel which are hazardous because they create high levels of dust that affect pedestrians, motorists, local inhabitants and agriculture. With AggreBind soil stabilization, a proprietary cross-linking styrene acrylic polymer, this is no longer an issue. AggreBind coats the particulates of whatever the indigenous terrain may be, and under vibro-compaction, the coated particulates bind together, thus forming an interlocking base. This cross-linking is where the mass solidifies, blocks together, and forms a hydrophobic base that is water-resistant, has great tensile strength and can withstand major variations in temperature.

Once the AggreBind treated soil has been compacted, it is then sealed. The surface sealing reduced the ingress of water into the treated layer and significantly reduced the risk of structural damage and failure, also eliminating the dust particles.

Soil stabilization with AggreBind can be used on both pre-existing roads, as well as where there was not a previous way to have roads, meaning that it can resurface old asphalt or concrete, or be mixed with the existing soil and be turned into a road or runway for the first time. AggreBind can be used to rejuvenate and resurface asphalt or concrete parking areas, runways, taxiways, sidewalks and pathways.

The Importance of Soil Compaction in Construction
https://mintekresources.com/importance- … struction/

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-09-05 08:22:18)

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#15 2023-04-28 03:55:02

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,898

Re: Traffic Control at Mars

Inspiration or Copycat designs?

China may include helicopter in Mars sample return mission
https://spacenews.com/china-may-include … n-mission/
Mobile sampling component will be part of mission to collect 500 grams of Red Planet material

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#16 2023-10-28 08:42:35

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,898

Re: Traffic Control at Mars

U.S. and Chinese officials meet to discuss space safety

https://spacenews.com/u-s-and-chinese-o … ce-safety/

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#17 2023-11-29 13:42:52

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,898

Re: Traffic Control at Mars

The disappearance of MH370 is unprecedented in recent times: Analyst
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/watch/d … st-3950306
CNA's Angela Lim discusses the renewed efforts to locate MH370

I don't know if we would see major loss of life on Mars as we do on Earth during the loss of a Ship or Aircraft or Flood events, however it is possible craft might fall down a canyon and get lost in a cave or there might be fires in a colony
However when you evacuate a plane or vehicle or ship you escape to a world of relative safety, the landscape of Mars will not welcome you might need a lifeboat or a lifepod.

a train accident is possible

on Titan or Europa it is possible something could be lost in deep water or some hydrocarbon lakes, a lot of travel on Europa might be done on the surface of the Moon and something that crashed on Titan should give off a strong IR signature compared to the cold Moon of Titan.

On Earth it is common for an airline to cease using the flight number of a fatal crash

There was an even worse accident happened at Tenerife largest and most populous island of the Spanish Canary Islands when two 747 airliners collided. Other events Air India Flight 182, Turkish Airlines Flight 981 also had over 300 die, Saudi Arabian Airlines Flight 163 killed over 300 dead even though it did not 'crash' the pilot landed but there was a fire onboard, an evacuation was not ordered and the fire spread rapidly
there was a mid-air collision took place between Saudia Flight 763 and Kazakhstan Airlines

Military has also played a role in mass deaths as Civilian Airliners have been shot down.

Sometimes people are killed on the ground like the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 bound for New York–JFK from London–Heathrow, the aircraft blow up over the town of Lockerbie, Scotland.
911 was a deliberate act of Terror, September 11 attacks being the worst of Major disasters or Terrorist Attacks with almost 3,000 dead.

deadliest single aircraft accident in history reconstructed - Japan Airlines

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxT51aeUaHQ

1985 event, the flight crew are reported to be suffer Hypoxia is a condition in which the body, the blood or brain or a region of the body is deprived of adequate oxygen supply at the lung and tissue level, it can cause slowing reactions and confusion they pilots would have battled these conditions. It was later reported a faulty repair eventually failed, it resulted in a rapid decompression that ripped off a large portion of the tail and caused the loss of all on-board hydraulic systems, disabling the aircraft's flight controls, for a while they fly the plane upside down, perhaps most onboard knew they would die but the pilots did their best to fight for control of the stricken jet, almost everyone died there were 520 Fatalities but 4 made it out with injuries, Yokota Air Base was going to send rescue but was asked not to at the request of the Japanese government, incredibly there were Survivors 4 even though the impact event registered as an Earthquake and the Aircraft was totally destroyed as a Burnt Wreckage. It's possible more people could have been rescued, the Japanese rescue teas did not arrive until one day later. Japanese public's confidence in Japan Air Lines took a dramatic downturn in the wake of the disaster, the captain's daughter, Yoko Takahama grew up and went on to become a flight attendant for Japan Air Lines. Debris is still being found today and in 2022, an oxygen mask belonging to Japan Air Lines Flight 123 was found near the crash
https://simpleflying.com/jal-flight-123 … rash-site/


Fire is always a threat

'Aggie Bonfire Collapse' students, gathering wood, burning fire and a tradition of partying and finally tragedy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOlDhOwPsyE

Tanker crashed and blew up on an Italian motorway, causing deaths, injuries, and extensive damage to the infrastructure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPthZO0fCLg


Chicago American airlines Boeing 767 burning
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06-FBqYfmcY

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-11-29 14:15:13)

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#18 2024-01-04 12:50:57

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,898

Re: Traffic Control at Mars

Japan Coast Guard plane not cleared for takeoff before JAL crash
https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Transp … -JAL-crash

Ingenuity lessons being incorporated into Mars Sample Return
https://spacenews.com/ingenuity-lessons … le-return/
As a Mars helicopter continues to operate far past expectations, its lessons are being incorporated

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