Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Void · 2023-07-07 10:55:21

And back to the Finnish Mega Satellite concepts:

https://www.9news.com.au/technology/meg … d%20others.

https://phys.org/news/2021-01-physicist … ceres.html

https://www.sciencealert.com/could-huma … anet-ceres
Image Quote:

Now consider doing this for Mars/Phobos/Deimos.

Mars has the organic chemicals that it's moons may lack. Actually these moons may have some Carbon and other things, but we cannot count on it. But what is needed could be had from Mars. If you needed Nitrogen, it can be had. You might also lift up excess Methane.

As I have said before, I believe that reacting regolith with Methane at high temperatures should yield water and CO2 which you could shunt into greenhouses to reform into organic matter and Oxygen. The regolith being partially reduced could then possibly experience a magnetic separations process(s).

Now as for time scales for delivery of organic matter to the Earth/Moon orbits and the Moon itself, we wait a long time for forests to grow, and then we harvest them.

Neumann Drives using Photos and Deimos propellants could do low speed deliveries to the Earth/Moon. The idea that propulsions have to make deliveries in the fastest possible fashion, may well not apply to this. And with this gravity assists may be employed.

And I will make the point that using spin gravity technologies in various orbits human habitation would be facilitated. If it turns out you cannot grow healthy people or maintain their health, in Martian gravitation, this may cover that potential problem.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-07-07 11:06:01)

Void · 2023-07-07 12:15:09

Back to Spincalc: http://www.artificial-gravity.com/sw/Sp … inCalc.htm

So, the Finnish idea is a common platform where the spinning "Worlds" would have magnetic bearings to hold them in place. The technique may avoid the problems of cylinders having a tantrum with gyroscopic buildups, and beathing everything to pieces.

I am not really going to use the spincalc, you can if you wish. I want to promote the possibility of nested onion layer habitations. I hope you will not tear up.

For devices that might grow things like hay, sugar cane, or bamboo, etc. fire may be a problem, so various means to suppress the danger do come to mind. But I will set that aside.

A very low g device to grow such things might spin inside of another "Stator" enclosure. If you are orbiting a world you are not stationary, but lets just call the stator as the reference. You may spin another enclosure inside of it. The Stator may have windows to let sunlight in.

So this is a two layer onion.

But can we nest 10 to 100 times of layers?

In the interiors, it is less likely that you would pipe sunlight in, rather you would likely have artificial lights. Cooling could be a very big problem, but lets set it aside for now, and consider other things.

If each layer, shell had a floor and a roof, and they were nested inside of each other, then with many layers, you might be allowed to not have to pull a full vacuum on any of it.

The outer Stator layer could be joined physically with the major structures. And if you divide the need for whatever the maximum g force you need between say 10 layers, then the differential air resistance may not be that much of a problem.

I can think of 2 methods for people and things to pass between the layers. One, you periodically stop all layers from spinning. This might make trouble as stuff would float about. But you might sequentially have each layer join alternately with the one above or below it, so people and things could pass on a schedule.

Alternately there could be "Cars" between each layer that could adopt the spin speed of the layer above or below, so as to latch onto one at a time.

Back to Cooling, I have a tendency to think of water cooling. If you could convey liquid water into each layer by some means, then evaporative cooling might be used, and the moist air might end up going to a large pressurized chamber where the vapors would condense.
The heat of condensation passing though the walls would power anti-solar cells on the outside of that radiator.

I think I have seen other people suggest layering like this but I wanted to promote it here to stimulate thoughts. Of course other more "Standard" options could be used.

It may be that a Mega Satellite would be a great place to live.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-07-07 12:29:29)

Void · 2023-07-07 19:51:52

Alright, suppose that energy in space might involve greenhouses. Obviously you have the fuel and Oxygen path.

But now if your vegetation is you evaporators, and if you have a condenser, using forced air you may convey excess heat to a radiator and on the outside of that radiator you may have Anti-Solar Cells. The condensate is then used to water the plants in the greenhouse, and the heat transfer to the Anti-Solar cells generates Electricity.

But what about this query? "Energy from air"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Energy+fr … A0&PC=U531

Here is something about energy from Hydrogen in the air: https://phys.org/news/2023-03-newly-enz … ource.html
Quote:

Newly discovered enzyme that turns air into electricity, providing a new clean source of energy
by Monash University

I don't know how real the above is, but I have been contemplating energy from hard radiations. Plants can wall off cancer, so they can be subjected to more radiation than most other things.

Quote:

Huc is a "natural battery" that produces a sustained electrical current from air or added hydrogen. While this research is at an early stage, the discovery of Huc has considerable potential to develop small air-powered devices, for example as an alternative to solar-powered devices.

If you can have plants as part of your radiation protection, then also you might have some production of Hydrogen from radiation striking the vegetations. So, this is a possible path to something of use. We normally do not think of radiation belts such as those of Jupiter as having a value, but perhaps in small measures it might work. Even perhaps somewhat in our Van Allen belt.

If your greenhouses orbit were elliptical, and passed into a radiation belt you might exploit this. Then when the orbit was below the radiation belts, you might have the humans come out of their very protected sleeping shelters. I am not stating that this is a certainty of good practice, I am rather opening the idea to further consideration.

And now what about electricity from condensation?
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne … 180982263/
Quote:

This New Device Generates Electricity From Thin Air
Nearly any material covered with tiny holes can derive energy from humidity, per a new study, opening doors to more sustainable power
Will Sullivan
Will Sullivan
Daily Correspondent
May 31, 2023

Some time ago I was working on an idea that was a sort of a cousin of that, but now that they have what they have I want to see if it can work. In my plan you might subject the evaporator to an electrical charge. A same charge between substances in a plant should cause the atoms/molecules to repel each other. But if you then force condensation, you may force those like charges to build up. And so I guess you have an excitation circuit and a power circuit. Sort of an electrostatic generator. But I am still not sure mine would work. Theirs apparently does.

So I will; claim that if you can evaporate moisture off of your vegetation and then condense it on a surface of their notions, then you might indeed capture lightning.

If I was going to go to the effort of trying to develop my idea, I am rather old, and have enough, and it is my expectation that things are often taken. It is what our culture teaches is moral. That is why we have things like Basket Ball or Football. Taking the ball represents taking the goods from that which produced it. It is a form of predation and after all there is quite a lot of predator in us. But my point is I did not think it was work investing my time and money on something which was likely to be stolen from me.

But these people are much further on it, and if our society prospers, then chances are I and those whom I am concerned with prosper. So, since someone is really near to it, I want to promote it.

By the way, I respect baseball more, I do not really understand cricket, maybe I would respect it as well.

So, I am suggesting that there could be many ways to tie vegetation in a greenhouse to power generation, for now I am thinking more of space.

And these things are sort of the opposite of solar panels. If we could do it this way we might have gardens in space that generate power that we could beam back to Earth.

As for Vegetation, you already know that I want to see it grown where organic chemicals are easy to be had, and I want to bring some of the vegetation back to the Earth/Moon.

Prior posts in this topic have discussed dropping vegetation onto the Moon.

And I think that Mars orbits could be a very good place to make such greenhouses that both grow vegetation to drop on the Moon and electric power to beam onto Mars.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-07-07 20:20:42)

Void · 2023-07-07 20:35:27

As per portions of the just prior posts, I want to suggest at least two situations where strong dangerous radiation could give life to rogue worlds,

A Steppenwolf, planet may be nourished by GCR, provided enough atmosphere and water can protect that life. That life as well could be on the tolerant side of radiation.

A giant Europa, might do well also if it was attached to a rogue super Jupiter. Such a moon endowed with lots of water and ice might have open water and an atmosphere, and the radiation belts may generate chemicals for a biosphere to feed on.

Also, in both cases dust from supernova's might sprinkle radioactive materials into such environments and that could give life to biospheres.

So, apparently the universe often gives both life and death by many means.

Done.

Void · 2023-07-08 14:30:15

I full of it again today as it turns out.

I am thinking about lithobraking on the Moon again.

I guess I am wondering about a foil wrapper, and having a object with a core of biomaterials, and yet a layer of carbon between the biomaterials and the foil wrapper. And Size might matter. Raisin size? Hail Stone Size? Basketball Size? Bigger?

The Aluminum Foil Boils at "2467°C".

The Carbon Boils at "4527°C".

And then I am thinking about having a prepared surface. Just now I am thinking of Carbon and dry biomass mixed with fine Lunar soil, and on top of that a layer of fine Lunar Soil.

While I have made consideration of foil and Carbon that may vaporize, we may also have dissipation of energy through the pool table or bowling pins method. The fine soil on top of the spongy mix below, may take some of the impact energy and travel just a bit sideways.

So, the cue ball on pool pushes momentum into the other balls, and also a bowling ball knocks over pins.

And as I mentioned I am anticipating spongy materials as a sort of a receiver. This is most likely in a cold shadowed crater, but could also be anywhere on the Moon, but perhaps at night.

This article suggests that some Carbon and water retaining materials can survive even with natural impacts: http://www.ecns.cn/news/2021-12-03/deta … %20surface.
Quote:

A group of researchers at the State Key Laboratory of Space Weather－which is operated by the Chinese Academy of Sciences' National Space Science Center－said it had recently identified some "glassy materials" inside a two-meter crater in the South Pole-Aitken Basin on the far side of the moon as remnants of a piece of carbonaceous chondrite that was not entirely vaporized when it struck the lunar surface.

My thinking is also that if a bin of small objects were dropped like a rain, the vibrations and splashing would help to cushion the impacts in many cases.

As I have previously indicated I also intend that a drop device such as a tether or drop ship would reduce the terminal velocity of the impactors.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-07-08 14:45:10)

Void · 2023-07-08 14:46:25

My other most wonderful notion today again involves something like this: https://www.sciencealert.com/could-huma … anet-ceres Image Quote:

Here I am wondering about something like a Von Neuman Machine, but with humans on board. If it were of a certain size, it might be able to replicate itself like a bacterium.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-repl … eder_ships
Quote:

Von Neumann probes
2001: A Space Odyssey: The monoliths in Arthur C. Clarke's book and Stanley Kubrick's film 2001: A Space Odyssey were intended to be self-replicating probes, though the artifacts in "The Sentinel", Clarke's original short story upon which 2001 was based, were not. The film was to begin with a series of scientists explaining how probes like these would be the most efficient method of exploring outer space. Kubrick cut the opening segment from his film at the last minute, however, and these monoliths became almost mystical entities in both the film and Clarke's novel.

Of course we don't have such machines, but I was thinking about a smaller version of the Mega Satellite, with people and robots on board, and it being able to be nomadic. Say going to an asteroid and gathering materials, (Or a planet), and then going to another different object, and then by migration and/or robotic imports having enough resources to make a replica of itself, similar to a bacterium.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_division

I think it is rather sexist to call the resultant cells daughter cells!

Him, Her, they WeWe! Themsis! Itsisses!

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-07-08 14:55:55)

Void · 2023-07-10 09:29:11

The Glory of Carbon.

For the Moon, we have considered Hydrogen/Oxygen propulsion and Methane/Oxygen propulsion.

I am interested in Carbon Monoxide/Oxygen propulsion for the Moon as well.

Please don't think of this as some nonsense tribal fight, I do not lay aside the others as forbidden, I rather bring this option towards the mix.

Of materials to consider for transport over solar system distances of distance and time, Carbon looks very good to me.

A combination of Neumann Drive and gravity assists also looks good as a transport method.

Carbon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon
Quote:

Triple point 4600 K, 10,800 kPa

............At atmospheric pressure it has no melting point, as its triple point is at 10.8 ± 0.2 megapascals (106.6 ± 2.0 atm; 1,566 ± 29 psi) and 4,600 ± 300 K (4,330 ± 300 °C; 7,820 ± 540 °F),[3][4] so it sublimes at about 3,900 K (3,630 °C; 6,560 °F)

So, Carbon could be a material you might lithobrake.

I have previously suggested using it as a wrapper to protect organic matter, but Carbon itself is very suitable to future needs I think.

I want to suggest metal wrappers for it to be used to absorb the heat of impact, but I am not sure of the value of it. But it is not wrong to ask the questions down the line if we can.

Boiling temperatures of Metals: (They don't seem to include Calcium):
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/boil … %20rows%20
Quote:

Metal Boiling Temperature
(oF) (oC)
Aluminum 4478 2470
Antimony 2625 1440
Beryllium 4487 2475
Cadmium 1413 767
Chromium 4838 2670
Cobalt 5297 2925
Copper 4667 2575
Gold 5072 2800
Iron 5198 2870
Lead 3182 1750
Magnesium 1994 1090
Manganese 3740 2060
Mercury 675 357
Molybdenum 8403 4651
Nickel 5072 2800
Niobium 8564 4740
Platinum 4098 3825
Plutonium 5846 3230
Potassium 1400 760
Rhodium 6692 3700
Selenium 1292 700
Silicon 5936 3280
Silver 4013 2212
Sodium 1623 884
Tantalum 9689 5365
Thorium 8672 4800
Tin 4712 2600
Titanium 5954 3290

Calcium: https://www.rsc.org/periodic-table/element/20/Calcium
Quote:

Boiling point 1484°C, 2703°F, 1757 K

Many metals may react to Free Oxygen, so in space we will not give it Free Oxygen.

If we can make wrappers for the Carbon, then the metal wrappers might evaporatively cool lithobraked Carbon.

There may be many reasons we might want to import Carbon to the Moon in the most cost-effective ways.

Carbon Monoxide / Oxygen rocket engines might be one reason:
Query: "Carbon Monoxide Rocket Engine"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Carbon+Mo … cacdcad384

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index … ic=21544.0
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/19960045922
Dr. Zubrin's fingerprints seem to be on this one: https://www.techbriefs.com/component/co … inery/3365

So, while I do not condemn the use of Hydrogen in Lunar Propulsions, I suggest that Carbon Monoxide maybe "Good Enough" for the Moon, and the Hydrogen might be conserved for other uses on and around the Moon.

I will make the point that if the Neumann Drive does work with Lunar Products, then all your Carbon Monoxide / Oxygen propulsion has to do is to get you up to a very low and perhaps even wobbly orbit, and a Neumann Drive Tug can fetch you up and down from there.

As for metals as flash coolants for Carbon, they might come from non-Earth/Moon sources, or they might come from the Moon.

I do not think all that highly of Mass Drivers for humans on the Moon, but I think we do want to have a look at very high g Mass Drivers that can shoot objects consisting of metals in large part.

A Neumann Drive Mass Driver(s) could also be considered. If they cannot deliver metals as a condensate to an object, they might be able to "Blow" onto a projectile that came out of a Lunar Mass Driver, to help it have a more circular orbit(s).

So, I feel pretty good about this.

I think that Carbon can last a very long time inside of a "Tanker" at temperatures and pressures of interplanetary space. After all the surface of Mercury is covered in it.

So, obviously I have my eye on Mars as a possible source. And if it helped activate a Earth/Lunar economy of large scale, then Mars would have a very valuable export to sell.

I think I will rest now.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-07-10 10:07:15)

Void · 2023-07-10 20:55:29

I think that crossing over between Organic and Non-Organic means of propulsion to me, appears to expand potential a large amount.

We have had the notion of Mass Drivers, and Nuclear Drives and tethers/elevators as possible means, but not in reality. They are all a hard reach. The Neumann Drive seems rather reachable. The expansion of potential for it seems very large.

As it happens Mercury is hard to reach, but the gravity is about the same as Mars. It has Carbon on it's surface, and supposedly large ice sheets at it's poles. And it is a very dense planet, so I presume has Metals also.

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/20 … ercury-ice
Quote:

Aug 2, 2019
The Moon and Mercury May Have Thick Ice Deposits
Earth’s Moon and Mercury, the closest planet to the Sun, may contain significantly more water ice than previously thought, according to a new analysis of data from NASA’s LRO and MESSENGER spacecraft.
The potential ice deposits are found in craters near the poles of both worlds. On the Moon, "We found shallow craters tend to be located in areas where surface ice was previously detected near the south pole of the Moon, and inferred this shallowing is most likely due to the presence of buried thick ice deposits,” said lead author Lior Rubanenko of the University of California, Los Angeles.

So, my thinking is now that for landings CO and Oxygen might be a method of choice, as many worlds have lots of Carbon and Oxygen, and the Neumann Drive can propel ships though interplanetary space using metals as the propellants.

If you have water on the Moon and Mercury, perhaps you want to "Tend" to conserve it for greenhouses on those worlds and around them. The only worlds I am aware of that are short of Carbon are our Moon, and many stony or metal asteroids.

Mercury, Venus, Mars, Ceres & Similar, and Callisto are expected to have lots of Carbon.

Mercury: https://theconversation.com/discovery-o … past-55940

Venus and Mars have CO2 dominated Atmospheres.

Ceres: https://www.astronomy.com/science/dwarf … of-carbon/
Here is a list of some large asteroids: https://solarstory.net/asteroids/largest-asteroids
Many probably have available Carbon. Even Vesta has a dusting of Carbonaceous materials on its surface.

Callisto: https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/galileo-s … n-callisto

And of course small worlds further out likely have Methane which is CH4.

Granted, in some cases you might want to use a Hydrocarbon fuel, but the potential universality of CO as fuel appears to be true, except of course for our Moon and many Stony Asteroids. But I have a notion that CO might work OK for our Moon as well if it can be imported, at least the Carbon. And as I have said, the water may be more valuable for greenhouses and plastics and such.

As for Mars, a Starship with a Nuclear Reactor on it could cook up tanks of propellants without having to resort to ice mining. This may be important for some situations of Mars.

I do realize that there are lots of reasons to also want to work with Methane, but I think CO might be a good deal as well. Carbon should be highly transportable.

It might seem silly to carry tanks of Carbon around, but the propulsions may be cheep, and the crews for this could be robotic. It does not necessarily follow normal economics.

But of course, these are just potential options, not mandates.

I understand the logic of Starship using Methane, it likely is the way to start. But if the Neumann Drive does work well enough, then interplanetary travel might be done using metals from small worlds. And to lift Cargo up and down might be done well enough with CO and Oxygen. As I have said in some cases ice mining may not be convenient for access to some places on Mars and elsewhere.

Certainly, if Carbon can be dropped onto the Moon in a usable form, CO and Oxygen could be rather attractive.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-07-10 21:26:33)

Void · 2023-07-10 22:14:06

From the just prior post, I looked into this list of 15 largest asteroids: https://solarstory.net/asteroids/largest-asteroids

It looks like most of them are Carbonaceous and are likely to contain Carbon and in many cases water or Hydrated substances.

So, again, I think that possibly CO & Oxygen coupled with Neumann Drives may be good for use for them.

I feel that Carbon is highly transportable as it is unlikely to perish or evaporate. And Oxygen is available almost anywhere. The Neumann drive can use a wide variety of materials, so it is relatively universal as well.

It is generally considered that solar power is not that useful as you go out in the solar system. At 2 AU, the sunlight would be 25% of what is available in space around the Earth. At 3.5 AU of course it is much less. But mirrors to concentrate sunlight onto solar panels should be very light in microgravity, so I think solar panels should work very well.

So, really quite a potential in our solar system from Mercury to Callisto, and of course even further out.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-07-10 22:19:57)

Void · 2023-07-11 09:27:50

This is about Tesla Bot, and you need your nerd powers for it:
Tesla Bot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMMoQVVdA5k

Robotics for and in Space will not only be Tesla Bot of course.

I am wondering about parallel and serial activities for several emerging technologies.

Robots
Space Stations/Power methods
Methane/Oxygen
Hydrogen/Oxygen
Carbon Monoxide/Oxygen
Neumann Drives/Other Electric propulsions/Nuclear Propulsion
Mass Drivers

They may each have a use envelope for the solar system, which is likely to be changeable, and which may overlap and be able to work with each other. It would be easy to choose a likely path, and unfortunately this might miss the main flow of technological advantages emerging. So, I guess I think now is when to consider a "Big Picture". To look.

Parallel would be the overlapping envelopes emerging for each one, the envelopes stacked on each other.

Serial would be how these methods may assist in the manipulation of objects and energy, and possibly working in a serial fashion to accomplish something.

I think robots, Nuclear Electric power sources, and Carbon Monoxide/Oxygen propulsion can provide an envelope that can overlap the other ones but may extend into areas hard to establish with humans as the core of it.

If there is a mineral somewhere where water is also not particularly available, the above envelope may be useful. For Mars, a Starship could land with some Kilo power units and could fill its Oxygen tank with Oxygen and its fuel tank with Carbon Monoxide. If the mineral can be extracted using robots, then the amount of water needed will be relatively small most likely. So, to transport it could involve rocket engines or even wheeled carts, fueled with CO/Oxygen.

On the Moon this could also be true, but you would likely have to bring Carbon in from an external source.

Of course the case for use of CO fuel on the Moon is not as strong as for Mars. However, if it could be dropped to the surface by some method, the case might be better. In the way I think about the situation, if you have an oversized loat of Carbon, if you drop it to the ground at some point prior to landing the ship, you may not need as strong engines, landing legs, etc. And you would have emptied the cargo hold of the ship. So then on landing, presumably the robotic system would fill the ore bins and then fill the propulsion tanks. Are there cases where this is economically sensible? That would be something that you would want to discover. There could be cases for the Moon, maybe not.

For Mars, it seems more likely as you would not be dropping Carbon, you could simply get it from the Atmosphere.

Anyway, I want to create a "Tab" for an CO/Oxygen propulsion(s) methods. So, I have made the effort.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-07-11 09:48:07)

Void · 2023-07-11 10:23:26

I have my opinions. I think that it can often be a case that a male with a speech impediment early in life, who overcomes it, may have a higher grasp of visual understanding, but having overcome communication troubles, eventually may become able to communicate what that minds skills are.

I don't know at all, but I suspect that that is not the case with this individual: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ha … M%3DHDRSC4

But persons with exceptional communication skills, who has a different picture(s) of reality can be very helpful. I enjoy the above nerds presentation.

In order to avoid the destruction of our technological aspirations by slavers, we will want the assistance of such uber-communicators. Such "That" do not seek to neuter men and indeed to enslave others.

Not exclusively the threat, but I believe that old cultures become excessively verbal, and not technological. So, their objectives will be to neuter technology, or to own it. As they are likely to be jealous and have too many Alpha males who only have the objective of control, mating with all the females and spreading their degeneracy. Murdering other men, mating with their women, creating non-productive children. My belief is that they become parasitic, and so then seek to enslave wilder populations of humans.

So, a person like the one above could be very useful in fending off these enemies, with their verbal skills and ability to understand technology.

---------------------------------

Carbon, the sin....................Yes there may be a case for extreme modification of the use of Carbon. But keep in mind that someone may be trying to enslave you, that can be their motivation. Typically, people with agriculturally productive land may develop a non-technological ruling class with low technology skills but verbal and violence skills. These being jealous of power, and mating opportunities, may be able to enslave other cultures, an army is said to travel on its stomach.

As for Carbon, for Earth, indeed we may very well need to modify behaviors. But for Space at least we need to modify our notions of Carbon. It has been really good for humans in the past and can be for our goals in space. Do not let the verbal Alpha Male virus with its collaborators turn the word Carbon into a "Sin". In the west we are entering into a world where we are encouraged to feel guilty of Carbon Sinning. But the rest of the world has indulgences to use Carbon for various reasons. To a large extent, I believe that this is being done to weaken us for the kill. They do love to enslave people; it is what they do.

We should consider further Carbon/Oxygen rockets. Not for Earth, elsewhere.

For Mars, it could make sense to pull Carbon Monoxide and Oxygen from the atmosphere.

But what about Carbon Powder?
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/en … al%20power.

Where Carbon is a solid, it is likely to be easier to transport across space in some cases than to transport fluids.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/en … rised-coal

Anyway Carbon Pulverized and fed into a burner, could be the basis for some kind of rocket propulsion. Obviously not an easy one. But I have suggested that Carbon may be delivered to remote locations which are likely to have minerals with Oxygen, and also possibly sufficient solar energy. This could be places on the Moon.

Actually, low gravity situations may facilitate the use of Carbon Powder Fuel. But as I have said, it will not be simple or easy. But it should provide more power than just burning Carbon Monoxide.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-07-11 16:32:06)

tahanson43206 · 2023-07-11 11:46:10

For Void...

A relative sent this link. i thought it might be of interest to you, although chances are you've already seen it. The planet reported would be a valuable source of materials for a sufficiently advanced civilization.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/10/world/es … 9075313692

I hope that link works ... there may be a shorter one available.

(th)

Void · 2023-07-11 15:51:12

That is quite a challenge (th). Better to know more about it.

The Star: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LTT_9779
Quote:

LTT 9779
LTT 9779 is a G-type main-sequence star located 264 light-years (81 parsecs) away from the Solar System in the constellation of Sculptor. The star is about 95% the radius and about the same mass as the Sun. It has a temperature of 5,443 K (5,170 °C; 9,338 °F) and a rotation period of 45 days.[3] LTT 9779 is orbited by one known exoplanet.

The planetary system: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LTT_9779#Planetary_system
Quote:

Planetary system
The discovery of the exoplanet LTT 9779 b using TESS was published in 2020. It is an ultra-hot Neptune with about 29 times the mass and 4.7 times the radius of Earth and an orbital period of less than a day. These parameters make it one of the very few known planets in the Neptunian desert.[3] Observations using the Spitzer Space Telescope have measured the planet's dayside temperature at 2,305 K (2,032 °C; 3,689 °F),[7][8] and observations by CHEOPS have shown the planet to be highly reflective, with an albedo of 80%.[9][10]
A study published in 2019, prior to the confirmation of LTT 9779 b, proposed a second candidate planet in the system based on transit timing variations, but this has not been confirmed,[11] and the study that confirmed LTT 9779 b found no evidence of transit timing variations.[3]: 23

Without other cooler objects, I guess all you might have is Starlifting, either from the star itself or the planet.

Even if you tried to terraform the planet, the gravity would be unsuitable.

So, OK, if you can Starlift and you are super advanced you might make this system your home. Unless there are some cooler objects in the system.

For your entertainment perhaps, Starlifting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzuHxL5FD5U

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-07-11 15:57:54)

Void · 2023-07-28 21:30:42

I am grateful that some have made efforts to reestablish this web site, so thank you. This is a desired outlet for my produced materials such as they are worth or not.

Carbon was central to this post: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 92#p211892

A coal powered jet? It seems that yes is the answer.

https://www.dronernation.com/coal-power … red%20coal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lippisch_P.13a
Quote:

The P.13a and b were to be powered by powdered coal. The DM-1 was a full-size glider, flown to test the P.12/13a low-speed aerodynamics.[1]

It was apparently late-stage desperation resort.

Quote:

Glider studies and the DM-1
Main article: Lippisch DM-1
A scale model of the P12/13 configuration was successfully tested at Spitzerberg Airfield, near Vienna in Austria, in 1944.[1][5]
The P.13a had reached a stage where full-scale aerodynamic trials would be possible. A glider with the same general design and 6.7 metres (22 ft 0 in) wingspan, but with the intake and exhaust faired in, was built as the DM-1. Lippisch however took little interest; having moved on from the design, he set up the glider project only to keep students of Darmstadt and Munich Universities from being drafted into a by-then hopeless war.[1]
The DM-1 had not been finished when it was captured by American forces. The Americans ordered Lippisch's team to complete the glider, and it was then shipped to the United States where it was test-flown. According to the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics the results were positive[6] and lessons learned were incorporated into NASA's research aircraft of the 1950s and on.

Obviously I think it may be a useful method for low gravity worlds. Not as a jet, but using liquid Oxygen, as a rocket.

I anticipate that it could be useful to preheat the fuel. If it was pure Carbon then that can be a high temperature, provided that the containment could handle the heat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon
Quote:

Sublimation point 3915 K (3642 °C, 6588 °F)

I estimate that the Carbon would be about 1/3rd of the mass, and the Oxygen the other 2/3rds more or less.

So, preheating the Carbon would be some added amount of launch energy, if it could be done.

Of course, this would be a sort of Hybrid Rocket.

I recall Isaac Arthur suggesting that for the Moon, a hybrid might be done using hot liquid metals as fuel.

I do wonder if the Carbon Fuel could have droplets of metals like Aluminum such as could be obtained from the Moon.

I believe that Carbon could be of interest as it might be dropped from a height to lithobrake perhaps.

As I have said before, I feel that after Carbon sourcing was done from Earth, it might originate later from Mars and then other worlds. I anticipate that the cost may be reasonable as robots, Neuman Drives, and gravitational assists might be used to transport it to the Moon.

I guess that is enough.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-07-28 22:01:53)

tahanson43206 · 2023-07-29 06:10:24

For Void re 1214

Thanks for continuing your series of interesting posts in this topic!

Your appreciation is welcome. I expect that kbd512 will see it.

(th)

Void · 2023-07-29 11:48:51

Thanks (th).

Tesla Bot, "Optimus", a bit more of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0nHWVXG4Mk

This, along with a source of Carbon for the Moon, could make space energy practical, in my opinion.

A curious thing that Carbon in Space might facilitate space energy, which could replace some Carbon methods for energy on Earth.

I think that Carbon might to a degree fill the role of ice in the Alice rocket system.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALICE_%28propellant%29

Of course, my notion is to try to drop Carbon from a height above the surface of the Moon and still be able to collect a useful amount after that even to put into propulsion systems, or to make plastics, and Carbon structures with.

In thinking of such things, I might stray into the territory of GW Johnson who does know about solids, I believe.

I am also contemplating the notion of Alice, but using CO2 ice, and also preheated solids with a Liquid Oxygen Hybrid method. Processes similar to Thermite might be involved.

I see this as specialty methods. To transport Humans and delicate items of other natures.

But I also think that the output of Neumann Mass Drivers might be used to launch materials, and also a regular Mass Driver might be assisted by the exhaust plume of Neumann Mass Drivers.

And all of this would also possibly be facilitated by tether methods as well, down the line.

If Mars and its moons could be used to transport Carbon to our Moon, then at first Mars might be a mining planet, but before very long I expect that it could be replaced as a source of Carbon by other worlds. And so, Mars being a mining planet would not interfere with the Terra formation of Mars, over time.

I guess that is it for now.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-07-29 12:04:21)

Void · 2023-08-01 07:21:51

Calliban recently provided a post about better ways of working with Fluorine: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 66#p211966
Quote:

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 2,718
Email
A new method of creating fluorinated compounds has been discovered.
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/arti … ochemicals
This bypasses the need for hydrogen fluoride. Assuming we find fluorite deposits on Mars, producing fluorocarbons will be one way of warming the planet.
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

So, some types of Feldspar might provide the chemical in a convenient way. Thanks Calliban.

https://phys.org/news/2023-01-large-dep … walls.html
https://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2 … allization.

So, using greenhouse gasses including some with Fluorine in them might increase the evaporation of high latitude water ices, which might increase insulating high-altitude clouds. It seems that such clouds may help to warm Mars: https://news.uchicago.edu/story/icy-clo … tudy-finds

If this could evaporate all the solid CO2, then an atmosphere twice that of now might result. That is considered to be at the border of allowing temporary melt water streams. It would be possible then to move water about and to provide for ice covered liquid reservoirs, in a convenient way. Just a little more heat from various sources could help that.

The planet having such a thicker atmosphere, then radiation protection on the surface would be considerably better, I seem to recall.

Such a planet might be a very good "Mining Planet". Actually, I am interested in mining Carbon from the atmosphere of the planet, and shipping it to the Earth/Moon, as you may already be aware of.

It may be that at the highest elevations of the planet mass drivers would still be usable.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-01 07:38:13)

Void · 2023-08-01 11:32:50

Well, I made a mistake in the just previous post, confusing Feldspar with Fluorspar.

But when you catch a mistake you made, perhaps it is a chance to learn.

A little segway here back to high altitude clouds: https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2101959118
The article seems to have great detail.

This one is about super greenhouse gasses: https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.051511598

Another: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terraforming_of_Mars
Quote:

The potential for mining fluorine-containing minerals to obtain the raw material necessary for the production of CFCs and PFCs is supported by mineralogical surveys of Mars that estimate the elemental presence of fluorine in the bulk composition of Mars at 32 ppm by mass (as compared to 19.4 ppm for the Earth). See more

So, according to the above, Mars may be more promising than Earth for Fluorine.

So, costly, but maybe possible. I recall Carl Sagan saying that the heat of Venus was from many greenhouse gasses, not just one. So, for Mars, a mixture of greenhouse gasses might work best, and then also an attempt to create the high clouds effect.

And in addition, I favor orbital solar power facilities, both to transmit microwaves, and to project light with mirrors and perhaps lasers.

The evaporation of dry ice might be more to create effects other than melting water. Radiation protection may matter and also a thicker atmosphere may allow better aerobraking of spacecraft into it.

As for energy projected from orbit, microwaves may penetrate though an ice layer over a reservoir of water, and so the microwaves would heat the reservoir. Sunlight added from mirrors might to some extent vaporize ice and even perhaps melt it. But also light from orbital mirrors may also pass though ice that is not too opaque, and so also warm the waters even like an Antarctic Dry Valley Lake.

Lasers from orbit may be expensive to produce but might be very interesting to use. They might pass though ice and water and heat the layers of water considerably and be rather efficient in that manner.

Any of these alternately could be pointed at converters to produce electricity and if that electricity was used in the subsurface, would produce waste heat that could be dumped into water reservoirs.

Such treatments might be compatible with mining Carbon from the atmosphere of Mars which might be ejected from high mountains with a mass driver system. If a doubled atmospheric pressure were compatible with such Mass Driver use, then the greenhouse warming only has to be enough to evaporate the amount of dry ice wanted. It would not be expected to melt water ice in massive volumes.

So, that greatly reduces the greenhouse gasses terraform methods needed.

As for Para terraforming that could also be implemented. The notions of domes are of course what most people think of for that, but as you know I also favor ice and materials covered water reservoirs.

These could be of a large amount and since ice and even at depth water can shield from U.V. these may be habitable by Earth organisms. But of course, additional building with U.V. shielding is also possible.

As I have said before, I would like to see Carbon imported to our Moon from a source in the solar system. If it could be obtained from Mars/Phobos/Deimos that might be good. The regolith of Phobos and Deimos may serve well as propulsion mass for Neumann Drives to move the Carbon to the Moon. The Oxygen produced as a byproduct would of course have its uses as well. As Carbon might be removed from the atmosphere of Mars, Oxygen from the moons Phobos and Deimos might replace its warming greenhouse effects. But Oxygen can also be ejected from a Mass Driver as a propellant of sorts. A win-win would be to propel Carbon towards our Moon using Oxygen in a Mass Driver, and in doing that shooting the Oxygen into the atmosphere of Mars. Then the Neumann Drives could be used to move the Carbon into orbit of our Moon. Method to drop, may need development.

Done.

Note: While I favor adding heat to water on the surface of Mars using energy from orbit, similar could be done with sunlight intercepted by various devices on the surface of Mars as well.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-01 12:27:50)

Void · 2023-08-01 13:36:55

This seems to be a new approach to Mass Drivers. I have a lot to learn about it so I will simply present the materials:

Fraser Cain, Launching Rockets With Electricity

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Fr … M%3DHDRSC4

Done

Void · 2023-08-01 20:06:02

This site seems to be a good one. A guest that was on a Randy Kirk video seems to have business on the site.

https://www.nextbigfuture.com/

That guest, "Brian Wang" has this article about superconductors, room temperature: https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2023/08/e … ctors.html

That video appears to be available in that link to that article above.

An idea has been forming in my mind and it just jelled into another morphism at this moment.

If you review the mass driver suggested in the just previous post, and if the superconductors mentioned here can apply to it, then can a magnetic load be shot out of a Mass Driver from the Moon. But rather than having a 2nd stage, probably chemical, can an orbiting magnetic field catch that load into it?

A problem which seems apparent with such a Mass Driver System is that if your launch speed is less than Lunar Escape velocity, then it will follow a ballistic trajectory and likely crash into the Moon, unless a secondary modification of the orbital energy of the object is applied to the object.

It may be noted that I have previous suggested blowing on objects with the output of a Neumann Mass Driver on the surface of the Moon perhaps. I do not at this time discard that notion. It could also blow on an orbital magnetic field.

But such a field might capture magnetic objects or deflect them perhaps. Such a magnetic field might have dust in it and may also sail on the solar wind. The strength/size of the magnetic field might be modulated for various reasons. Solar wind sailing around the Moon could be one such reason. Also, if the magnetic field is in an elliptical orbit, could it actually attract itself to the Moon on the down portion of the orbit and so then raise its high position of orbit, the aphelion?

If we are talking about room temperature superconductors, could you react the orbital magnet against one set onto the surface of the Moon? Attraction and Repulsion methods?

And now a very weird notion could a magnetic object orbit inside the magnetic field of a larger object that was in orbit of the Moon?

Then if you sent an object to orbit with a mass driver and it had magnetic properties could it by some means enter into a capture orbit of the orbiting magnetic object?

Also, could a crewed ship enter into a magnetic orbit of such a magnetic object?

Mass Drivers for humans seems like a very low priority, but ships the burn Hydrogen, Methane, Carbon Monoxide, or Carbon itself seem sensible. Could these then orbit a magnetic field with a large mass of inertia magnetically bonded to it?

I would not mind having some ideas and guidance on these things.

And yes, I am still very interested in bringing Carbon to the Moon as part of this set of notions.

Room temperature superconductors suggests to me that gigantic magnetic sails could be created.

Any thoughts?

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-08-02 07:48:56)

Void · 2023-08-02 08:00:50

So, it looks to me that we might want to focus on our Moon and Mars/Phobos/Deimos, and eventually also perhaps some asteroids. This is in line with recent time local thinking anyway, so not a strong deviation from the planning of others.

In my view the doubling of the atmospheric pressure of Mars is perhaps attainable, and useful, and seems like a reasonable objective. Such a doubling may make water and ice a bit more stable.

From there then Para terraforming is desired. It emerges that water ice and water can be thought of as building materials, which may be assisted in function by other types of building materials.

It is undesirable to have moving water associated with regolith sediments, as that will tend to absorb atmosphere. However managed water in pipelines and also in static reservoirs may not be that much of a threat to the persistence of atmosphere. That has emerged from discussions with Calliban.

So, from my view, we do not want to heat Mars to the point that large wild rivers come into existence.

So, that then suggests that if we generally keep even the coldest parts of Mars at a temperature above that of the creation of persistent Dry Ice, the best results might be obtained.

This greatly reduces the amount of greenhouse warming required in my opinion. And in some situations where Dry Ice might begin to form, beamed power from space might be used to mop it up in some cases, allowing an even lower base of heat.

Such a Mars may perhaps support managed aquatics, and the notion of pressurized greenhouses and housing. Also, though it might perhaps also keep Mars suitable for mining, my favorite thing to consider is Carbon and water to orbit.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-02 08:11:05)

Void · 2023-08-02 08:49:02

Isaac Arthur had a video about superconductors a couple of years ago, and this seems worthwhile to view from my point of view.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Is … &FORM=VIRE

Quote:

The Impact of Superconductors
YouTube181.1K views
Aug 6, 2020
Isaac Arthur
543
Posts
746K
Followers

If room temperature superconductors are real, then the above video has a large significance now.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-08-02 08:50:54)

Void · 2023-08-03 11:09:06

This was produced and may be of interest to some:

Isaac Arthur, Lunar Space Elevator, 3 hours ago
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Is … &FORM=VIRE

He indicates that such devices would be 2nd or 3rd phase activities if they were ever tried.

I am not particularly a fan of space elevators, but what I am not against them. Still more needs to be known about the Moon and other worlds before deciding to try such a thing.

Done.

Void · 2023-08-03 20:20:19

I think I may be happy with this from "The Angry Astronaut". I need to watch it, I only listened to it so far: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=VRDGAR

I am very excited about the centrifuge feature. I did not think that 1/3 g could be achieved with it. I wonder if special training and perhaps medications will help people use it?

Anyway, it does look to be extremely true that we have benefited by working with international partners. The USA culture does many great things in space, but it appears to me that other cultures pick up parts that might not be done by our culture, at least not just yet. Our situation has a tendency to fall asleep at times, 50 years away from the Moon. It is not a great thing, but now with international contenders, our culture cannot afford to sacrifice the space program(s) to those who want servants to bring them hot toddies and feel that that is the highest humans can ever be.

There is a lot of hope now.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-03 20:38:14)

Void · 2023-08-04 05:07:00

The link in the last post to a video does not seem to work on some of my devices for some strange reason, so here is another one about that European Space Station plan.

https://phys.org/news/2023-05-european- … e_vignette

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-08-04 05:09:03)

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