Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Void · 2023-06-15 13:48:17

THIS Is Where We Should Be Placing Solar Panels! Fully Charged Show
The Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKXjrK-_vh0

Well.....Consider this alternative:

This shape is one to consider: : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrahedron
Image Quote:

Now float that on water or put it on stilts in shallow water. It is emerging that indeed a reservoir of water vapor exists on the surface of bodies of water.

Now draw that vapor in. Now for the Brown Face, make it a high level of thermal emissivity to the sky.

In order to draw the moisture in have sliding doors that can be adjusted the level of water to be favorable to draw moist air off of the surface of the water. While in the sunshine, we might hope that the brown face might condense water, at night it may be that all three interior faces will tend to condense water. A trick will be needed to make the water cling to the surface so that it can flow down, rather than to drip off.
Down lower will be collectors for the water.

The two green faces can be a combination of windows and solar panels, so that in the day, enough light will be inside of the chamber of the Tetrahedron. Solar panels may be of a type that passes some light though or may be opaque.

To maximize solar panel efficiency, you might pass heat into the water below. Various methods come to mind. The simplest would be to circulate air with fans.

In the night, since the air inside is likely to be warmer that the outside you could exploit a draft to draw some air out, and subsequently draw humid air in at the base. Also in the wind, the shape of the device should behave a bit like a airplane wing, so you could circulate air out that way, or you could resort to fans as well.

The device might host a windmill on it as well.

To make things more pleasant there could be platforms around the perimeter on the outside or inside for people to be hosted on.

Watercraft passing between sets of these devices might be tolerated up to a point.

Now it should be obvious that there are many places in the USA and around the world where this could be useful.

My understanding is that the reason that there were large lakes in the Great Basin during the ice age is that evaporation was lower. That simple detail tipped the balance of power. Here now for things like the Great Salt Lake, may be a trick to reinflate it, and to make it valuable to reinflate it.

We could talk about the Salton Sea, and pumped hydro for it, but it is in California after all. Red Tape to the max, I would expect.

But California does not own all of the Colorado River and it's reservoirs. I am not sure that the other states will wish to obey them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_River

How many dams on the Colorado River?
https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/how … n%20Dam%20

Well you can zoom in on this link: https://www.bing.com/maps?q=Reservoirs+ … 11&lvl=6.8

Anyway back to the Great Basin, you could inflate the Great Salt Lake and then pump excess water up to other basins. And yes of course you would want to preserve some of the original habitat, although it has been very altered already.

I don't know but maybe even the Carson Sink could be reinflated: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carson_Sink
Image Quote:

In the last ice age that lake apparently existed.

Of course, to inflate the lake you would not do something silly like draw fresh water out of the tetrahedrons, rather, you might use, it clean it a bit and return it to the lake, allowing the lake to finish the clean-up.

If the blockers get all excited as they may be concerned that their industrial/technical slaves are escaping, I mention then the rest of the world where these things can be experimented with. Aral Sea, Dead Sea, Nile River, and so on. We will escape, so give up.

Done.

More imagination food: https://www.bing.com/images/search?view … ajaxserp=0

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view … 11&iss=VSI

Image Quote: OIP._9_GFwlBCar52qHHPSYI2AHaJX?pid=ImgDet&w=201&h=254&c=7&dpr=1.3

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-06-15 14:42:56)

Void · 2023-06-15 17:46:57

A few details for the previous post. You might want to make sure some UV is periodically inside the enclosures, to avoid things like Legionnaires disease.

You might include anti-solar panels. You even could have solar panels over the anti-solar panels that flip out at night if the wind is not too fierce. But complexity has costs.

That's enough for now.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-15 17:48:24)

Void · 2023-06-15 17:50:16

Returning to "Over Covers" with adobe structures inside of them.

Attempts could be made to extend the range into damper and colder areas by using vapor barriers and what I would call "Vapor Wells".

If you could find a way to have a chamber in the adobe that allows you to pull a vacuum in it you could also heat it up so that moisture in the grains of the adobe will pass to vapor. UV light may help to make this happen similar to a solar still.

This of course could be a source of condensed water as well. In a way, it might pull water out of the air, and if moisture did seep upwards, it would pull that out as well.

For vapor barriers, I suppose a sort of poly film might be used. We might hope that when it is buried it might last for 1000 years. However, I suspect that microbes will learn to digest it eventually. But if it could be kept mostly dry that would delay the decay, I think.

This might even work on Mars. I am not sure. If the dry well was say 600 degrees C, it might pull moisture. RH% sometimes reaches 70-100% in Martian nights at the cold of such nights.

My hope and objective is to foster plenty, to thwart the people who want our citizens to be sharecroppers / surfs.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-15 17:56:25)

Void · 2023-06-16 09:47:25

I want to return to the notion of sequestering Carbon by including vegetation into Adobe. Grass is a likely source of much of it.

Most schemes I am aware of require labor and energy, while producing little material goods.

If Adobe can be expanded as a building materials and grass and other low-grade vegetation, then we can possibly offset some Carbon released to the Atmosphere.

A thing I might want is a method to extract some of the nutrients from the "Straw" before using it as a building material. But as a crop grasses not for fodder or as a food for humans may be grown on marginal land.

So, then perhaps a useful method of Carbon sequestering. As long as the Adobe is not damp, then Methane emissions from decay of grass will be a small thing.

Another thing is if a place is not suitable for Adobe, as it is too damp, you might make a dome shaped hill and simply put a dome over it.
As you constructed the hill you might want to figure out how to put channels in it to allow fluids to flow. I am guessing air, so you might sort the rocks and soil and make "Pipes of rocks" Perhaps you could encase them with a poly film to help keep the rock "Pipes" and the soil separate.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-16 09:54:55)

Calliban · 2023-06-16 11:27:34

Void, that could work. Straw reinforced adobe has been used for a long time. Another option would be to put straw and epoxy glue into a mold and compress it to produce a synthetic wood that can be used for walls and flooring.

One of the south american civilisations created extremely fertile soil by burning crop residues and mixing the charcoal into the rain forest soils. The carbon particles trap nutrient ions which are subsequently aborbed by plant roots. Look into 'Terra Preta'.

Void · 2023-06-16 14:56:37

Caliban posted:

Void, that could work. Straw reinforced adobe has been used for a long time. Another option would be to put straw and epoxy glue into a mold and compress it to produce a synthetic wood that can be used for walls and flooring.
One of the south american civilisations created extremely fertile soil by burning crop residues and mixing the charcoal into the rain forest soils. The carbon particles trap nutrient ions which are subsequently aborbed by plant roots. Look into 'Terra Preta'.

I think that is good. I am looking for isolating Carbon while getting further benefits. Your idea of Epoxy/straw Squeeze, might also make good vapor barrier pads to inhibit the travel of ground moisture into the Adobe. For that purpose it would likely not be very flammable.

As for finished interiors it might work for some of that as well. If you have read the previous posts, I intend to also extend the range of Adobe by having an "Over Cover", to host solar devices and windows and so to keep the weather moisture at bay.

In such a future world, I feel we can be more comfortable about using coal to make steel. As long as you are sequestering at least as much Carbon as the Steel making puts into the atmosphere, then it is not as bad a thing.

And really since the Adobe structures in part hold up the "Over Cover", which may host solar devices and even wind devices, I see that there may be a lot of upsides to making more and more of these, so the amount of Carbon sequestered in this way might be rather large.

My thinking about some part of how the so called "Climate Crisis" has been used, is that historically southern people have despised industry. This was true of England. They would much rather have the population be surfs, peasants, even in some parts of the world slaves. Anti-Industrial, Anti-Technological. They are jealous of power.

It is a repeating pattern. The Romans and Greeks considered the people of the north to be Lessers and to consider that they should at best be dead or be slaves.

The pattern has played out in the USA recently where Per Nixon, industry was exported to China, to subdue the Rust Belt, probably as they were afraid of a worker's revolution in the North as people were daring to protest the war, and were doing weird Hippie stuff.

Just so you know, I do not want a worker's sort of revolution as I think that that is susceptible to enslavement as well.

I also have had just a bit of affinity for the Hippies but was quite willing to be a person with a job. I do not approve of their My Pretty Pony Lazy Butt ways, and in reality, they are just as bad as the "Royalty" of Dublin, London, Paris, Rome, Athens, Cairo, and > 2 more.

I will get very weird here, but I see the struggle in America as the need to remove the "Royalty" from their perches here. Such "Royalty" is most likely of Guess Who's Party.

We can fix things up, I believe, but you have to understand that they don't want it fixed. They want us subordinated and dependent, and spiritually crushed.

By the way, the notion about England came from a British guy named "Allistair Cook" who I believe became an American. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alistair_Cooke

I also have a history of study of sorts and I have seen this repeated pattern.

The Southern Entity, which in America is not necessarily Dixie, loves to set up "Royalty", and to encourage the women to practice Hypergamy.

Then like a Church, the anointed males govern, by currying favor with the Females and trying to put the common males on the bottom of the pyramid. The breeding from that structure is bad as it favors male lines with talents that are less about Industry and Technology, and more about ruling, serfdom, and even slavery.

I regard it as a repeating pattern. The wilderness breeds people who have Industrial and Technological talents. They build a civilization. The royalty with the gifts of gab and brute violence gradually displaces a better gene pool, and then the civilization falls, and may be conquered, by either wild people who might revive it, or even worse Royals.

When you see that your school is more about arrogance and verbal skills, rather than vocational and technological skills then you know things are not good.
Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-16 15:22:39)

Void · 2023-06-16 20:15:29

I want to amend my last post. I was in a hurry.

I respect the UK and its constitutional Monarchy government. I respect the Commonwealth.

My annoyance is with my fellow citizens in the USA who are acting on the archaic memories of things from Europe, behavior's that belong in the past and on another continent. I regard them as interlopers and not legitimate.

But it has been my instinct that however sloppy, our situation is self correcting, but sometimes a terrible penalty is earned by those who do not do duty to behave as Americans, or whatever we are. That name American hmmmm......

I'm not to boogieman, I like my simple life and have no particular agenda except a boring life.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-16 20:21:35)

Void · 2023-06-16 22:04:07

This is a nice Video: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ju … ORM=WRVORC Quote:

The Solar PV panel that provides electricity AND heat for your home!
YouTube243K viewsApr 10, 2022

So, it is a year or so old at this time, but I find that it describes things supportive of my assumptions.

I think the idea of using air as the working fluid is sensible and I do note the mention of heat pumps. And of course I am interested in very big "Thermal Mass Batteries" of Adobe with Grass/Hay to sequester Carbon. Special measures to protect the adobe mass may also facilitate the collection of electric energy, heat, and cold. The Adobe may be used as a heat sink, if measures are taken to facilitate that.

In the video, it mentions the possible extension of the life of solar panels from 20 up to 50 years.

And I do think that over time the accumulation of technical methods will make recycling of solar panels practical.

I think the structure could be used to some degree for people to be in at times maybe as a bit of a greenhouse. In the case of winter it could be cheerful to be in such a place. That may be of value.

Where I live winter days are approximately 8 hours long, as I live at a similar latitude as France, but cold air from the north gives us cold winters that are often snowy.

So, reflected light from the ground covered with snow could make up for the shorter days, to some extent.

Our summers can be hot, so I guess some cooling ability from a heat pump would be desired for that purpose. So if you cool a house and dump the heat into a big heat sink you might carry some of that heat into the fall and even the winter.

Your house overheating then becomes a solar collector. Your heat pump then stores heat for colder months.

Some hope in this for some places, I think.

I particularly like the Sequester of Carbon, it can than as in a Carbon bank, perhaps ease up restrictions on things like making Steel. Granted if you can do that with Hydrogen, then good. But it might make a different sort of steel, which also would be good. My talks with metallurgists made me believe that making steel is like baking bread. So, different methods may produce a different product.

If enough grass were sequestered, we might even drain the atmosphere of Carbon and have to put more Carbon into it to facilitate plant growth.

Then we would we would be glad to have Coal after all.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-06-16 22:19:20)

Void · 2023-06-17 20:56:22

I am inclined to visit robots. A small connection can be made to the just previous posts as robots might be helpful and also if Heliostats were used and the "Over Cover" were the target, those Heliostats may in fact be robots of a sort.

I think that a lot of things that we end up talking about have had a form previously in science fiction.

My mind has been thinking about robots, using Tesla Bot / Optimus as a pattern. Optimus has been described as about an average size of a human, with some speed and strength safety margins.

I am thinking small now Mini-Optimus. I think that there was some sci-fi about building a small machine that built a smaller machine, going down and down in size. As I understand it "Backlash" may limit the process to a level not all that small, not quantum for instance, probably much larger than that. I think an instructor informed my class of that in about 1973. Humanoid robots would not be the most functional form at those size levels I think anyway.

Monkeys do not have good enough hands, but still finding out what the smallest monkey is may give some estimation notions of what a good small hand could be. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmy_marmoset
Image Quote:

A small human has existed 2 feet and 3/4 inches tall. Seeming to be very intelligent, reasonably presentable, and seeming like a nice person. This suggests that someday long from now, star children may travel, of a small size.

But I would want to see small humanoid robots in our society first, to see if it is possible to get large people to behave responsibly.

The Robots small are an independent notion but might eventually point to a possible consideration of the alternative human form to travel the stars.

In nature predation typically is by a singular larger creature against smaller creatures.
But pack animals or animal groups may be individually small but collectively effective. Wolves, Parana's, etc.

As far as I know there will be no bears or wolves in space unless we have a zoo. So, that sort of tooth and nail is not to be the test of space people.

But back to small humanoid robots, I wonder what economic asset they could be. As they would be small, some kind of accommodation would be needed for the brains of the robot. The method for Optimus would not be the right size I think.

So, all I am doing in this post is re-opening questions that have already been entertained by others in the past, in some way.

I am entertained by such questions.

Thats a good part of why I do this. It is a hobby.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-17 21:17:30)

Void · 2023-06-19 21:43:57

The idea of various sized humanoid or otherwise robots suggests that pattern manipulations at a distance remotely will become possible. I have collection of notions to put here which also will suggest that we are potentially going to solve reality in a good way, to move to another level(s).

I will bring in the Neumann Driver first from here: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=10524
What this says to me is that even for a stony asteroid or similar material, the metals can be propellants, and also by various methods Oxygen can be a propellant.

Silicon is less probable for a propellant, but glass could make some very nice strong greenhouses where it may be that microbes might be gown at rather low pressures, in bulk to create resources useful.

This may support such a line of thinking. While they cite fermentation, I wonder if eventually photosynthesis could support the process..

Precision Fermentation:
Quote:

The Biggest Disruption in History That No One is Talking About!
Two Bit da Vinci

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qH0ysXosCuQ

Of course, their focus is mostly on Earth, which is very good.

Eventually in space such farms might work OK at a pressure of 100 to 50 millibars or maybe even less.

Now this suggests that Hydrocarbon fuels can be used more efficiently:

Terran Space Academy, Hydrocarbon Fuel Cell Breakthrough!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLf1ieu5a0U

So, also, I have suggested sequestering Carbon in the form of dry straw/grass in Adobe.

So, being tired and seeing as it is late, I will say I see a drift that is very positive, and not at all what the Merchants of Despair have been trying to sell us. The chains they wish us to accept from them, are seeming to me to be unwarranted.

So, chances are offered.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-19 21:55:38)

Void · 2023-06-20 08:26:27

As for mass transfers across the solar system, I think a slow boat mentality could have merit.

If you have manipulation at a distance of patterns in materials, and you have so many options for propulsion, after all transferring what you want to where it is wanted, may simply require patience.

As for the transfer or humans, you either want high speed transfer in low mass devices, or slower speed transfer in higher mass devices.

Solar power is frowned upon by many rocket people, as it does not typically offer high speed transfers. But if you can preposition mass to consume to convenient locations, then that can support any type of transfer.

As for metal propellants to be carried to LEO by Starship and perhaps others, I might make the point that metal is about as stable a propellant you may need, and will tolerate a wide range of temperatures, and does not need to be pressurized.
That is much more convenient than is liquid propellants. So, a lot could be forgiven as per performance. And of course, the size of the container for metal propellants, would likely be much less than that for liquid propellants. Although rockets will still pose an explosion risk, metal propellants will not do so in the same way or to the same magnitude.

An interesting result might occur due to the new notion from Blue Origin, Blue Alchemy.

Supposing a solar powered ship was built in orbit of the Earth/Moon, from panels from: https://www.blueorigin.com/news/blue-al … ar-future/

So then say it is powered by a Neumann Drive and has been supplied with metals sufficient for its travel mission. Suppose that it has robots on board with material pattern manipulation capabilities to do feed the engine with the metal rods, and perhaps even good enough for some types of repairs.

If you took it slow, say 10 years to get the device to its intended location, it arrives depleted of propellants, and bringing only its solar panels and the Neumann drive and its robots. It would seem not to have a cargo, but no, the solar panels could be rendered into new solar panels, or into other items such as hardware or metal propellants, or habitats.

One possible use of a method like this would be to establish orbital structure around Venus, to get a subpart of human activity established there.

We might also suppose that the use of metals from stony materials might be used to move small asteroids of value to locations of convenience. So, then Bennu might be moved to a location of convenience for instance. And yet at the end the ships panels could again be rendered into useful service again.

So, for metals to use in the Neumann Drive the European method to get Oxygen from Lunar Regolith may point a way.
https://www.universetoday.com/161804/ai … the%20Moon.
Quote:

ROXY creates not only oxygen, a resource vital for humans to breathe and also for rocket fuel, but also makes metals that can be used to manufacture tools, equipment, and even structures on the Moon. And it does it simply from the regolith that is present everywhere on the lunar surface.
This process is similar to MOXIE, the experiment that the rover Perseverance took with it when it landed on the red planet in 2021. However, when Airbus announced a successful test of ROXY in October 2020, MOXIE was not yet proven and was barely even on its way to Mars.

So, it may not need to be a high-grade alloy, just something that can be in the form of a rod, and that will conduct electrocortical currents.

This can very likely be achieved with the materials of Phobos and Deimos, I expect.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-20 09:06:58)

Void · 2023-06-21 20:18:31

I am still thinking about the Neumann Drive and possibly related issues.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=neumann+s … B4&PC=U599
Quote:

NEUMANN DRIVE
THE NEW STANDARD FOR
IN-SPACE ELECTRIC PROPULSION

This is rather nice, I feel: https://neumannspace.com/metal-propellants/
If you scroll down, the periodic table shows which elements are suitable for the Neuman Drive and which ones will work for Hall Thrusters.
Very surprising to me!

Quote:

METAL PROPELLANTS
WHY ARE WE USING METALS?
Our system can use any solid, conductive material as a propellant since the arc cathode is the propellant. This differentiates it from pulsed plasma thrusters which strike an arc across the surface of a polymer propellant rod, rather than striking the arc from the surface of a conductive cathode.
The physical properties of metals lend themselves well to spacecraft propellant storage, as most metals are inherently safe in the vacuum and radiation environment of space. This removes the need for propellant stowage systems such as tanks, the mass of which can be devoted to more payload. Similarly, the greater density of other propellant metals reduces volume, freeing up space for other systems.
WHICH METALS?
Our system is not limited to pure metals; alloys and electrically conductive forms of carbon, silicon and similar elements can also be used. We have found that refractory metals such as molybdenum make excellent propellants, and recycled aluminium alloys can also be used. Exceptions include mercury and gallium, tin, bismuth and lithium (due to their low melting points), cadmium and technetium.

I am supposing that some things work better than other things that work, but technically most things can work, which is a surprise to me.

If you have a ship with Neumann Drive and an Oxygen Mass Driver, you can basically emit processed stony asteroid materials as your propellants, or at least almost every part. Not Hydrogen, but Hydrogen is valuable.

Technically this would be suited to any electrical energy source of a magnitude significant.

I don't know what the issues of compatibility are but I would try to pair it with a magnetic drive that can sail the solar wind.

If you are dealing with solar sailing, and use solar panels, then your power will fall off as you become more distant from the sun, but the bubble will expand as you move away from the sun, providing a similar thrust at near Mars as near Earth, provided the same amount of electrical energy is used/available for use.

And so, I am wondering about the ability of such a magnetic field to protect people from GCR: https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/9843210
Quote:

Abstract:
An optimal magnetic shielding configuration for significantly reducing astronaut exposure to Galactic Cosmic Radiation (GCR) on long interplanetary missions has been realized, and is referred to as the Dipolar Toroidal Magnetosphere (DTM). This configuration was shown to have the singular ability to deflect the vast majority of the GCR including High Z Energetic (HZE) ions.

Now I have been wondering about using solar panels to help shield from Solar Flair Radiation.

Ideally solar panels are light if they are for a spacecraft and not a space station. But if you could fold them up, perhaps they would provide some benefit.

So, as soon as possible in the event of a solar flair, the panels would fold up to the sunward side of the spacecraft.

In the case of solar panels, I wonder if they could be a distance away from the craft in the direction of the sun, to have the hard radiation impact them and then emit secondary radiation. If the hard stuff does pass though, and is not deflected, then perhaps the protection is not very good. But if it dissipates some of its energy, on solar panels that are a distance "In Front" of the ship, then it is possible that the emission from the sun would be deflected off course, or at least the secondary radiation would be emitted at a distance from the ship and would scatter in all directions to the universe and not as well, as if its first encounter with mass of the ship was its pressure shell.

It might also be hoped that the secondary radiation could be in part influenced by the magnetic bubble after that.

Of course, if you are going to use folding solar panels as a part of a protection from solar flairs, the folding and unfolding mechanism has to be reliable. Also, it the folded panels will then not unfold, then I guess you need a method to unfold them manually after the flair is over, if possible.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-21 20:46:28)

Void · 2023-06-22 07:15:20

I had been wondering about the performance efficiency of the Neumann drive. Of course with different situations possible, that will not be a single number that describes all, but perhaps some indicators for certain situations.

This is from about 2015 so a bit old: https://newatlas.com/neumann-ion-drive- … ine/39490/
Quote:

It seems as if the age of the bench-top breakthrough in rocket science is not a thing of the past. Dr Patrick Neumann of the University of Sydney has developed a new ion drive as part of his PhD thesis that is claimed to outperform the best one devised by NASA. According to Neumann, his new drive, which is still in the experimental stage, is more efficient than the latest High Power Electric Propulsion (HiPEP) ion engine and holds the promise of "Mars and back on a tank of fuel."

Perhaps this is helpful: https://neumannspace.com/faqs/
(th) asked about this and I was not completely sure:

The plasma exhaust is highly ionised plasma which expands out from the spacecraft at high velocity. In fact, the velocity of the exhaust is so high that, depending on which direction you point the exhaust, it will either reach escape velocity as a stream of individual atoms, or enter the Earth’s atmosphere as a harmless trace impurity. In short, this system will not add to the space junk population, or add measurably to micrometeoroids in deep space.

So, perhaps Stainless Steel is not the first choice, but might work to a degree:

Good propellants for pulsed cathodic arc thrusters are good conductors with moderate to high melting points, low ionisation requirements, and no handling or storage hazards. This includes many metals used industrially for alloying, such as molybdenum, structural metals such as aluminium and titanium, and graphitic forms of carbon, among other examples.

You can certainly read the other items. It seems like a very exciting method which may do things other systems cannot do as well.

Now the quote "Mars and back on a tank of fuel.", was mentioned. What about Earth and Back?, with propellant from the Moons of Mars?

I have mentioned Semi-Cyclers before. My hope is that they can "Hang themselves up" at Mars using "Ballistic Capture", and then be refueled in orbit from Phobos, and Deimos materials, maybe from Mars materials. Then do flybys of Earth and Venus, where interchange of small ships can be done. Planet<>Semi-Cycler interchange.

So, I sort of like the idea, again of working with a combination of thrusters. Neuman Drive, Plasma Bubble Drive, and perhaps even Oxygen Mass Driver. Additional gravity passes of Earth or Venus could also propel the ship.

Although it seems likely to me that refineries in orbit of Mars would produce products for the Semi-Cyclers to use, a very fin notion is that the ships load up on Regolith and process it as they travel. Producing Oxygen, and propellants as they go. Maybe even producing some structures as well.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-06-22 07:48:32)

Void · 2023-06-22 08:43:03

Now I am wondering how low into the Earth's atmosphere a ship with a Neumann Drive can have a powered orbit?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_low_Earth_orbit

Now something for the flakes to get hysterical about. If the Neumann Drive shoots atoms out, then can it cool the Earth with extremely fine dust? Last time I tried something like this plastic hysteria was the result, (Paranoid?? Sure ) I wanted to seek to build giant plastic greenhouse cisterns in the deserts, then sudden plastic paranoia. Probably a coincidence. You have to maintain sanity by assuring yourself of such likelihood. As it turns out plastics from the Great Basin are not likely to fill the Pacific with plastics. It is mostly things like nets that ships dump overboard. I suppose some hysterias get you fame and grant money, so that you don't have to bother with a real job.

So, Aluminum atoms would likely bond with atmospheric Oxygen, and form such small molecules that may reflect light. So, then can we drive ourselves towards an Ice Age, using a low orbital Neumann Drive?

Such a vehicle must have electric power, so during atmospheric dives Nuclear is not going to be OK. Solar Panels, Batteries, and perhaps Microwave Rectenna, might be possible options.

So, now can chemical rockets such as Starship hand off a payload package to a Neumann Drive ship at a low atmospheric powered orbit?

And what are the results of spewing Neumann Exhaust into the uppermost atmosphere? We certainly don't want to use Carbon, and we will want to know the possible effects on Ozone, and the potential for a thermal change of Earth.

Now please avoid Hysteria. We are no where near the magnitude of use which would cause a climate effect, but we do want to be sure about Ozone.

In deciding to take a risk, we should not say, "It might", and then say "We Cannot Allow Any Of It". We will want to know what is the likely magnitude of the effect, and what is the decay rate of the effect if we stop or reduce the use of such a method?

You must understand the difference between people who only read books and people who write books about Industrial/Science/Technology.

The people who only read books are associated with religions and also cults, and some of those cults can do bad things. Even major religious authorities will admit to the danger of cults.

Religion to organize society and to remember "Best Practices" is good. But if Psychopaths get high positions in those, for them tormenting those beneath them and enslaving them to pointless servitude is a possible objective. So, if the "Doom Sayers" show up always consider that they may be in association with that sort of a process.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-06-22 09:01:59)

Void · 2023-06-22 09:16:25

As per the previous post about the Neumann Drive in LEO, we also could contemplate the use of the Neumann Drive to operate in so called "CIS Lunar". All the way down to very low Lunar Orbits, I might suppose.

So, then if Starship or other chemical ships could be refilled in many locations by depots moved to those locations with the Neumann Drive, then that would be helpful for the travel of such chemical driven ships.

Done

Void · 2023-06-22 10:18:32

Looks like I should want to guide something a bit: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=10132&p=2

I would like to get apples to apples. I have been getting "Internal Server Error", so I may abruptly end the post.

What about dust storms on Earth? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saharan_d … ticles.%20 Quote:

Aerosols
Saharan dust transported over long distances is primarily composed of very small particles called aerosols. Smaller particles have a larger surface area per unit of mass than larger particles.

GCR: https://www.intechopen.com/chapters/60125

Cosmic Dust: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_dust

So, if the output of a Neumann Drive results in particles similar to these effects particles, we are likely tolerant of it.

But I will not say it will not effect cloud cover. High Clouds, Low Clouds, I do not know. Seems that it may nucleate clouds just as the other particles can.

This could be important for terraforming Mars, as if you provide nucleation's, you might promote high clouds which could warm the planet.

Now that is a possible method where the atmosphere of Mars could possibly have relatively recent warmings. Could a dust cloud start such a warming. And if a warming starts, can more water be evaporated from ice to go to the high atmosphere?

But we do believe that Martian dust storms do push moisture to the high atmosphere, but a sustained warming does not occur in the events that have been observed by humans.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-22 10:34:10)

Void · 2023-06-23 08:17:00

I am looking at using the Neumann Drive to strip mind Asteroids this morning.

A craft with engines pointed 180 degrees apart, could approach an asteroid and spray it with one of the clusters or engines, and so like an iron wind, blow materials off of it into a centrifugal drum.

I think it might hover over an asteroid on its own thrusters. Of course, these would be small asteroids. It might work for Phobos and Deimos as well. In fact that would be a good place to experiment on.

I said Iron Wind, but it can be some other material that the Neumann Drive can utilize.

A centrifugal drum might be like a cup, which rotates inside of a somewhat larger that does not rotate. Variants are potential for various reasons.

In dealing with Phobos and Deimos, this may grant a refilling process in orbit of Mars.

We might try to involve magnetics and electrostatics in the collection process.

More Coffee.......

If we spray a magnetic material like iron, then we may create a slurry of magnetic spray particles and regolith particles.

I believe that the output of the Neumann Drive can be of various speeds, so some particles may stick onto regolith particles/rocks as well, and when the Iron would cool down below the Curie Point, magnetism in the collection drum/cup could help to draw the materials into it.

Electrostatics could be utilized also in various ways to modify the shape and activity of the plume and may also possibly be a method to attract the plume into the drum/cup. Also, it might be used to shape the plume, its size also. I am thinking of electron beams, and the drum/cup taking on a (+) charge. But as in tube electronics, there might be many various types of machines developed.

I had a rather short education in electronics tubes, I bet not many younger than me had much of that.

Internal Server Error again. Convenient for this post.

So, what about using the Neumann drive to carve things? What about coating things using it?

This is in the family of the centrifugal device that may be useful for the mining operation: https://www.cnet.com/science/space/citi … e%20design.
Image Quote: fea-asteroid-base.jpg?auto=webp&fit=crop&height=675&width=1200

Of course, preliminary thinking has it as a cup within a cup, the inner cup spinning, and perhaps the outer cup spinning differently.

If you have regolith in a spinning centrifuge, then you have artificial gravity. This may make processing the "Ore" easier. First desires would be to create conductive rods for the Neumann Drive, and Oxygen. If any water or Hydrogen containing materials can be obtained, then all the better.

As I am kind of a fan of Ballistic Capture, I make the point that Ballistic Capture is a sort of gravitational assisted space travel. Mars provides that, and yet in its hill sphere it has two small moons that resemble asteroids.

Very convenient.

This only reenforces the value of Mars as a first objective, beyond the Moon.

More coffee.............

We have hoped that these moons may contain Carbon and even perhaps Hydrogen in some manner. So far that is not confirmed at all. Carbon to some degree seems likely, and our experience in testing space objects suggest that the solar wind would deposit some Hydrogen in some manner, but we do not have confirmation or diagnosis of magnitude of the presence of such substances.

But I assert that Tar could be manufactured on Mars itself. Then it might be a useful substance to transport to the Earth/Moon. Perhaps even a form of Lithobraking would allow it to be sent to a shadowed crater. Of course, speed of impact has to be moderated in order for the cold tar to maintain its usefulness upon the deposit. Such a process developed would be useful but not essential to human activities in space.

Inverted "Cup" collectors might hover riding on Neumann Thrusters like a rocket, or a hovercraft if you like. Perhaps collecting more regolith into the cup as they go. Of course, this will depend on the nature of an object, its gravitational field, spin and other things, I presume. Could hover on Ceres? Well, I don't know, and so then that is an interesting question. That then helps define categories of small objects that I don't think we have classes for yet.

However, an inverted centrifugal cup on a small world would offer some protections for humans and robots, particularly as it accumulated more mass from regolith. And also, the spin gravity would perhaps facilitate materials processing in a useful manner as well.

For worlds where you need more thrust to hop about, I suppose if you have it available you might use other thrusters as well, but chemical propellants may be too valuable for that. Perhaps put wheels or tracks on the thing???

Smaller objects the size of Phobos an Deimos are for that reason very interesting.

Inside of the inverted cup you would have protections on the bottom from the moon itself. The cup walls would offer protections as you filled it. And if you made containers with regolith to attach to the "Top" of the inverted cup, you would have a considerable protection level.

Hard Radiation, Thermal Cycles, Impactors, these would all be moderated, and you may have some useful synthetic gravity. But of course, if the spinney thing were to get bouncy in an uncontrolled manner, that might not end well.

So, then we can cast eyes on asteroids suitable. Near terrestrial asteroids are of interest. Mercury, Venus, Earth/Moon, Mars are the terrestrials to be nearby.

Coffee.................

So a rather large ship, perhaps having some of the nature of what Robert and others proposed, might launch to do a flyby of Earth, after being filled with propellants and other resources from Phobos/Deimos/Mars.

Something like the Starship would need to match orbit with the ship during flyby. I would think that a Neumann Tug could have gotten the ship partially to the needed orbital shift but still in the Earth's hill sphere, over a tolerable period of time.

I suggest dual Starships. Joined nose to nose, approximately by airlock. The objective would be to use the resources of both ships to achieve the passing ships orbit, and ideally to disembark passengers and cargo. Then ideally to travel back to Earth, perhaps with air braking of each ship individually. But with two ships, I anticipate enhanced abort modes to improve survivability of passengers and ships, by aborting to the passing large ship or back to Earth, possibly sacrificing one ship to achieve the abort to safety for passengers and at least one ship.

Time to rest it, enough coffee

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-23 09:22:52)

Void · 2023-06-23 13:17:48

I feel a desire to continue with the last post. I am wondering if a Torus would be desired, for the gyroscopic aspects, so as to try to avoid tumbling.

Could we have an outer shell which does not rotate and might even have legs to stand and walk on?

And then inside the rotator, perhaps even two counter rotators.

I don't want to over-specify, as I do not wish to terminate into a specific cul-du-sac.

So, then a landing dock on the upper-outer shell, and a mouth opening in the center of the lower-outer shell.

And then the mouth may use Neumann Drive generated outputs to help convey the regolith into the mouth of the centrifuge, but maybe even mouthparts like a crustacean also disturb and ingest the regolith.

When the interior mass of the device is sufficient it might be drawn by slight gravity even to small worlds, in a sufficient manner to facilitate walking.

Humans and robots may have protective pockets in the interior of the device.

What are some of the larger Near-Earth Objects?

https://www.astronomy.com/science/ask-a … h-objects/

Here is one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/433_Eros
Image Quote:
Image Quote:
Dark Blue is Earth, Green is 433 Eros.

While you might have some synthetic gravity in the mining machine, you might have a proper habitat for humans in orbit of the little world? Space Elevators?

After Phobos and Deimos and Mars, something like this could make sense.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-23 13:36:14)

Void · 2023-06-23 19:21:33

The Angry Astronaut may have some good points on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00Pfu3qIsOs

I have speculated on some weird stuff about Starship, I suppose most of it is a waste of time.

I will say however that Starship might make a good temporary space station. You could send a factory up with raw materials and do a manufacturing run and then bring the product down. I am most concerned about stage "0", as I wonder if the places for it will be limited, but the future will tell of that.

But he did make me think about the Neumann Space Drive. Stainless Steel is likely to be hard to work with.

Aluminum and perhaps an Aluminum/Lithium Alloy might be possible to use with the Neumann Drive. And that might come from Falcon 9 2nd stages. Those stages are currently burned up in atmosphere or pushed to a high orbit to discard them after use.

The Neumann Drive is thinking to use space junk as propellant. Aluminum Alloys might be easier to melt and form into propellant rods for the Neumann Drive.

The Neutron Rocket has it's own logic, is likely not so much of metal. It is not a bad logic, but it is its own notion.

Starship is as much as possible about reuse of both stages. This has its own reasoning.

Falcon 9 is going to possibly become outdated, but could provide space junk for propellants for a Neumann Drive notion.

But what of Terran-R? They are thinking to retreat from recovery of the 2nd stage for some reason. And this might provide an opportunity to make it of metals that can be suitable for a Neumann Drive. They may not need crewed spaceflight as others will provide it.

So, could they recover their 1st stage, send a payload with the 2nd stage, and sell the expended 2nd stage in orbit as space junk to convert into Neumann Drive propellants?

I see that as a third way of playing the game. Neutron is not wrong, Starship is not wrong, and perhaps my speculation of Terran-R options is also not wrong.

Time will tell.

Done.

I am beginning to think that I should not be posting here though. Maybe it causes trouble.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-23 19:33:49)

Void · 2023-06-24 10:16:25

Well not so much of a surprise, another post.

I think I have identified what the Neumann Drive is doing to my mind now. For the last many decades after Apollo and also Soviet and Russian space efforts, and now bringing up the potential of China, space propulsion has contemplated liquid propellants to get from the Moon's poles and possibly asteroids. There has been a thin hope that these might allow the human race to project leverage to the Moon and beyond. The Moon has a little of that, we think, and the asteroids might provide some of it if our technical leverage eventually allows it. But, a drive that spews old space junk and also the abundant solid materials of the Moon and even stony asteroids, has the potential to change all the calculations about leverage.

Coffee..............

So, could we produce an "Iron Wind" from the surface of the Moon, to a receiver in an orbit, using the Neumann Drive? Use the output to project Iron and Nickle off of the Moon to a target? I don't even know if atomized Iron and Nickle can be magnetic. Upon ejection they are too hot to be that sort of magnetic. Some hope I might have is that if they cool down below the Curie Point they will become magnetic. While I am hoping for that behavior from those two elements, it is also possible that the fuel rods for a Neumann Drive might carry other elements that will travel with the ejected materials.

Coffee.............

A receiver might have a very strong magnetic field, and an object for the Neumann Beam Output to cling to. Magnetics may have importance. We also may try electrostatics, an electron beam?

All of these things, the atoms, and the electrons will be affected by the magnetic fields encountered, including the solar wind.

Also the atoms and/or particles will be affected by the photons from the sun, and even the infrared photons from the Moon.

And in fact you might even use a laser beam to push the atoms/particles.

But it makes for a possibility of collection of that material into an orbital object, and then eventually the use of the projected mass for purposes of leveraging human intentions as actions in reality.

If anything like this is possible then it will change all the calculations for human future in space.

Some interesting things: Neuman Drive, Particle Beams, Fusion using a Particle Beam.

Coffee.......... and a pause.

Well, I risk becoming to Sci-Fi too much, too soon.

Space Junk around Earth, and then lifting mass from the Moon using a chemical means, and then the lifted mass used in a Neumann Drive. That is more achievable sooner. But I don't know what he possible payoff in leverage is.

I guess is it a good time to leave and then maybe come back on it later.

Other people's ideas would be very welcome.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-24 10:46:22)

Void · 2023-06-24 11:09:02

Well, there are at least two new lines of thinking from this:

1) Would it make sense to keep the fairings attached to the 2nd stage, and lift less payload to orbit with the Falcon 9? The Fairings have been lifted largely out of the Earth's atmosphere, so they may have value as propellant for a Neumann Drive. You could dispose of the atmospheric to ocean recovery expenses. No boats, no parachutes, no heat shielding. But it would reduce your satellite payload to orbit. It gives more space junk though. But if you can use the alloys of the 2nd stage in a Neumann Drive then it may have value justifying the action. Just perhaps the Falcon 9 can have some level of continuing life for a period of time from this. Maybe.

2) The Martian Semi-Cycler, Semi-Boomerang option.

Because the opposition of my notion of a Semi-Cycler is not currently being opposed by membership here, I have to suppose that it may be possible. The notion is that Ballistic Capture can allow a gravitational assist to snag an interplanetary spacecraft into a Martian orbit. This is best done with electric propulsions rather than chemical propulsions. (I do not know of the relative value of sailing on Photons or the Solar wind). In being so snagged to an orbit, without additional propulsion the ship would eventually leave Martian orbit again, but that is not really a problem as many forms of propulsion are possible in that situation.

Pause..............

Sources of mass in association with the gravity of Mars are Deimos, Phobos, and Mars itself. We also have some trojans whose value is unknown at this time. While the Trojans are for future interest, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_trojan, for now I set them aside.

A Semi-Cycler might be set on a path to flyby Earth, using the Neuman Drive. The resources for it would come from Deimos, Phobos, and even Mars. The propulsion methods may also allow for "Other". Solar wind sailing, Photon Sailing, Other types of Electrics such as Argon, and other such as Nuclear and chemical.

I sort of dismiss the Nuclear, as we don't what that sort of thing to flyby Earth except for very special reason. So special that I cannot think of such a reason at this time.

Anyway, exchange of people has been suggested previously, presuming the use of dual Starships as a potential for it.

But what about air braking resources into Earth orbit while flying by? Materials derived from Deimos, Phobos, and even Mars? Probably ablative methods may be used, but you might also use Liquid Cooling similar to the Stokes Space scheme.

Pause...............

Mass so delivered may be used to build structures in orbit, and also as propulsion mass. Not only substances to use in a Neumann Drive, but perhaps even ices of CO2 and H20????

Maybe.

As for resources from the Moon, I guess if that works economically, then just fine. But it will need to make more sense than these other options.

Maybe they all will have their merits???

Time may tell, if we persist.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-24 11:33:09)

Void · 2023-06-24 11:45:10

Even if we reject the idea that the moons of Mars have ice in them or hydrated minerals, or even a Hydrogen cloud inside of their pore space, Hydrogen can come from Mars itself. If that is used to refine metals, then the result may be water which could be condensed into water ice.

This of course is in dispute: https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/moons/mars … 0asteroids. Quote:

Like Earth's Moon, Phobos and Deimos always present the same face to their planet. Both are lumpy, heavily-cratered and covered in dust and loose rocks. They are among the darker objects in the solar system. The moons appear to be made of carbon-rich rock mixed with ice and may be captured asteroids.

I am willing to just give the naysayers the notion that Hydrogen is not available, but I believe that there is likely some Carbon. Maybe not huge amount but enough to make some Dry Ice.

I am willing to consider the results of this query: "UAE’s Hope mission". This needs to be considered a result, not the final results of analysis.
General Results: https://www.bing.com/search?q=UAE%E2%80 … fcc752a8c6

I cannot get strong understanding of the findings, but they tilt towards Phobos being composed of materials similar to Mars. I cannot find out how much Carbon they have detected. I think it is likely that there is some Carbon. As I have said, I am willing to back away from claims of available Hydrogen.

It is noble that they endeavored to do this task. But do not assume that there are no ulterior motives to a claim of results. More testing is desirable.

But in any case, Hydrogen and Carbon could come from Mars itself, and Oxygen from the moons. So lifting liquid Methane from Mars to Phobos and/or Deimos could yield water ice and Dry Ice to transport to Earth by the means that I suggested in the previous posts.

We must always be aware that those with the power of speech and who use thuggish methods of control may see us as an asset to own and control, to generate them wealth and power.

In other words, "What we are is what we eat" (Food).

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-24 12:03:42)

Void · 2023-06-24 12:21:31

So, I am really full of coffee today, please excuse me.

As I now see it, if I were SpaceX, I would have a look at changing the 2nd stage of Falcon 9 to be suitable to be recycled as Neumann Drive propellant. This may or may not involve the retention of the fairings to orbit. It is something to look at either way.

It is likely that both Starship and Terran-R will take some time to get up to speed, so until then a revision of the 2nd stage, not for the crew dragon, but for this purpose might be looked into. In the case where the retention of the fairings may lower the achievement potential of the device, a "Neumann Tug" might be able to dip down and fetch the 2nd stage with or without fairings, and may then lift that and perhaps the payload to a higher orbit. The tug would then move the expended 2nd stage with or without fairing to a space station which can render the 2nd stage into Neumann propellants.

I don't know about the legality of it, but if I were SpaceX and some other economic entities, I would want to invest in Terran-R, as an eventual replacement for the Falcon 9 system. This may be a no-no in an anti-trust sense. I don't know.

But I would be a good trick for our nation and its friends and family associates, and for SpaceX as well, I feel.

I am running on the notion that "Stage 0" situations for Starship 2 stage will come to be in short supply, and I am presuming that Falcon 9 and Terran-R may be able to deploy to more launch pad situations.

The Neumann Drive however may be very useful and helpful for activities with the Starship.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-24 12:28:46)

Void · 2023-06-24 20:15:45

I might as well continue. As I see it Mars/Phobos/Deimos is practically ideal for our needs as it turns out. The question of the utility of the Moon within that framework will need to demonstrate itself and should be encouraged to do so.

As I have said I favor Seim-Cyclers in the long run. I do not oppose Earth<>Mars Starships however, and they likely will occur first.

I have some very rough guestimates of the relative rigors of passage of Starships to land on Mars. I have 6.5 and 4.0. 6.5 is coming from interplanetary space, and 4.0 if coming from an orbit of Mars. I have 8.0 for landing on Earth. That, I think is related to speed, and may approximately suggest relative rigor, at least as per speed of encounter. I would be happy to be corrected by experts on this.

From my point of view eventually there should be Starships for Mars and Starships for Earth, but interplanetary passage should be in a Semi-Cycler(s).

In truth, once you have enough organic materials for life support on such a Semi-Cycler, you may not need to very often add more, as for a large device recycling is likely.

But propulsion mass might be added while a Semi-Cycler was parked in a Martian orbit, or robot ships could certainly intercept the Semi-Cycler to give it more propulsion mass.

As it happens, the readily available CO2 for the Martian atmosphere now is a mean value of a bit less than 6 millibars. It could be pushed up to ~11.5 millibars with some level of terraform effort. This is apparently good enough for the Starship to shed the bulk of its speed with air braking. Still if launching from Mars the Atmosphere is not nearly the drag of the Earth's atmosphere.

Products that might be exported from the surface of Mars-to-Mars orbits and beyond may be composed of Carbon, Hydrogen, and perhaps a few other things. Methane, Parafin Wax, and Tar come to my mind. Water and CO2 as well.

Say what you may about Phobos and Deimos, we can expect to get metals and Silica from them, and Oxygen as well. Perhaps Carbon and Hydrogen. But Mars is quite close to get what is not available from Phobos and Deimos. So, I guess my view is that if some want to work with Mars itself, then fine, but I would be very attracted to Orbital Mars and also Interplanetary Semi-Cyclers.

At the very least if we now want materials manufactured in microgravity for Earth, of course we will want them for Mars.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-24 20:35:24)

Void · 2023-06-25 10:32:42

So, I am somewhat looking at paraffin wax and tar as well. An air brake device could contain them and some of the heat of air braking might be absorbed by these substances. So, a metal envelope with those contents, and perhaps the use of ablative heat shielding as well. A one time air brake into the atmosphere of Earth or Venus.

These might travel with and be propelled by Semi-Cyclers.

The Semi-Cyclers would pass by the Earth with a gravity assist intent, but cargos dropped off would ride on these air braking devices. Starships and similar would choose a scheme that intertwines with these notions.

I feel that Tar and Parafin Wax should be possible to manufacture on Mars. I believe that Parafin Wax can even be a rocket fuel. I am not saying it is a requirement, but it may be an option: https://www.nasa.gov/feature/ames/from- … -its-worth

But Tar can be distilled from organic matter, and I am supposing it could be distilled on Mars from organic goop microbes grown.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tar

By air braking this stuff, much of interplanetary speed could be turned to heat.
The method to propel these cargos, to Earth or Venus LEO/LVO, would be to a large extent Neumann Drive.

It might not do to actually seek a strongly circular orbit of Earth as the cargo destination may as well be the Moon in some cases.

The notion of using nuclear propulsion to send loads to flyby and also air brake into the Earth does induce cringing, but perhaps there is a safe way.

Let's say you have a dual propulsion ship. Actually, two ships together, nose to nose. One is Nuclear powered, probably Nuclear Electric, and one is Solar panel powered. The start together at Mars, but when the Nuclear has done its deed, pushing the solar one on its way, the Nuclear takes a path back to Mars, without coming very close to Earth at all. Then the Solar one is on its own. As the solar ship passes Earth, to boomerang back to Mars, it interacts with Starships or the Like, and also drops off air braked cargo modules of a robotic nature.

As it is going to do a boomerang gravity assist pass of Earth, it does not need that much solar power to trim its orbit back to Mars.

I am sure that the products delivered might be of interest in various Earth orbits, but now I want to further consider Lithobraking Tar to the Moon.

Pause......................

Previously I anticipated a drop ship, spewing small tar balls at an altitude where the substance could possibly survive.

Now I am wondering about a method of an engineered cratering event.

If you created a "Cushion" of regolith, impacting it might allow a giant tar ball to enter it and dissipate energy by ejection action. The tar slows down in part by displacing regolith. And if done right it is possible that the tar ball would be enveloped in regolith. While this could very likely result in very hot tar, it may be that a lake of hot tar could be largely retained in this manner. The rock would be cold, and the tar under it and the surface tar would be pressurized. I am thinking of a shadowed crater of course.

While we might start this economic trade for Mars, we might also eventually deploy it to the major Asteroids as well, Ceres for instance.

Exports from Earth would be intellectual property items and perhaps also various goods not obtainable easily at remote locations. Certainly start-up gear for settlements in space.

For the Asteroid Belt, as solar is weak you might really want to have the Nuclear Booster.

So, then a Nuclear Electric Neumann Drive.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-25 11:06:55)

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