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#1051 2023-05-21 13:18:30

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,070

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

In the previous post I have attempted to restrict to Apollo resembling schemes.  I have not yet tried to fit in new inventions which Apollo did not use.  At least that is sort of true.

While many here do not like the Lunar Gateway, I simply acknowledge that someone has intentions to create it.  The Lunar Gateway, to me resembles the Command Module orbiting the Moon, but I also suggests space stations which might be around other worlds.

While the early version of the Gateway resembles a torture spa for ill health promotion, if you have communication with both the Earth and Moon, and you have an economy on the Moon from Tesla Bots and other bots, then over time the Gateway could become more respectable and more protective of humans hosted by it.

So, Artemus does create a "Command Module" and includes an Earth<>Gateway transfer method, to me it resembles a scaffold, which may promote a collection of private entities to grow a Earth<>Moon interchange structure.

The Gateway is to work with Electric propulsion, I believe, which is a step beyond Apollo Tech: https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa … propulsion

I am not at all against that.  Also, they may direct robots on the surface of the Moon, with reduced time latency.

It appears that NASA is putting SpaceX and its associates as one leg to the Moon, and Blue Origin and its associates as another leg to the Moon.  For the moment both of those lags will seem to use improved Apollo like methods to assist in the reach to the Moon.  So, I will not be surprised if each of them develops more completely an advanced variation of Apollo capabilities.

So, when I have, in my previous post proposed an aerobrake method for a "Lunar Starship", I now want to compare it to the Apollo method.

The logical "End Point" for the Apollo Capsule and a proposed "Aerobrake Lunar Starship" are different for good reasons.  The Apollo had to find a narrow path to the surface of the Earth, as lingering in space any longer only offered death and mission failure.  Now, an end point in Earth orbit could offer much more.

As a Starship must be refueled in orbit by other Starships, it might be convenient to not land it on Earth at all.
The ability to transfer materials and humans in LEO is coming into existence at this time.

The ability to service the Starship in orbit should expand as well.  I can easily contemplate the ability to put a cap over the Engine skirt of a Starship to pressurize a space to allow service to the back end of the ship, as a possible example.  You would need the skirt bottom to be attachable to the cap/bell onto it.  If you did have some simple cloth to help protect with aerobraking, it would likely be possible to patch it in orbit.

There is just so much more to talk about but I have to be careful keep this worth the trouble.  I will rest it for a bit now.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-21 13:57:49)


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#1052 2023-05-21 15:29:37

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,070

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I have just come to wonder about Lunar Starships after a Lunar Landing.  NASA has said that they don't specify what SpaceX would do with them.  I think I might wonder about them as space stations, maybe even an add on to Lunar gateway.

I am also hoping to do more about using Oxygen and Methane for atmospheric braking coolant.

I am rather excited for the various options.

I also am interested in the new HLS lead by Blue Origin as well.


Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-21 15:31:22)


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#1053 2023-05-21 20:25:30

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,070

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Here are some new reference materials:

Warning the M.F. phrase as swearing appears in this one.  It is offensive.
Space X Moonbase Economics, Anthrofuturism
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tp68SN5OINQ

Moon Oxygen: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … 5ac8&ei=15

Blue Origin Beat SpaceX!, Terran Space Academy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99qAt_Znf28

I have to say that I also like the National Team plan as it provides an alternative to what I have been posting about.  The plan has a transporter that goes from Earth to Lunar Gateway, and the Blue Moon then lands on the Moon and then returns.  The Transporter for this might be changed in my opinion to also have air braking abilities.

The Blue Moon is also Hydro Lox, which is adaptive to the Moon.

A hateful marriage could be the Starship as the transport Earth<>Lunar Gateway, and the Blue Moon as a lander.

Many tricks may be possible.

I know that there was a plan to have a two person emergency escape device to get off of the Moon, if the LEM failed.  I don't think it was ever built, but a Teala Bot might ride one down, grab some samples and then come back up to a Starship orbiting the Moon.  So, it might refill with propellants and other needs, and do it again.  This could be a way to do several "Grab and Snatch" operations to get samples from around the Moon.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-05-21 20:35:29)


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#1054 2023-05-21 20:39:41

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,070

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I am very interested in using propellants as coolants for aerobraking.  Oxygen is really a weird one to consider, as it is reactive.  Methane would have its own quirks.

For Methane Tanks, I think that they will be mostly empty on the way back from the Moon to atmospheric intercept.  I had thought of a robot with a squirt gun inside the tank spraying it down with liquid Methane from a Header Tank to create gas phase methane.  But really sprinkler methods such as for lawns and fires should do.

On the same passage I expect Oxygen tanks to be largely filled with Lunar Oxygen, so the method would be to let the boil-off bubble up and collect as a gas there.

I was happy to see that SpaceX at least is considering landing engines for the Moon that burn gas phase Methan and Oxygen.  So, then that is where the boil-off could be passed to offer some propulsive ability during aerobraking.

For this purpose, the Methane and Oxygen would not have to be super chilled as is needed for Raptors.

However, the propellants each offer a reservoir for cold if for some reason that is desired.

I the case of Oxygen you might even go so far as to freeze some of it.  But I don't think such an extreme is required to get the aerobraking job done.

If there are inboard crew and cargo compartments on the ship, then methods to cool those surfaces during aerobraking would be more complex, but again the heat could be dumped into the cold reservoirs of the propellants.

I think I will end it for now.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-21 20:53:20)


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#1055 2023-05-21 21:15:50

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,070

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Well, this showed up, and I like his works:


Scott Manley, Why Blue Origin's Lunar Lander is a Radical Rethink
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Sc … M%3DHDRSC4

I am not anti-Bezos or Blue Origin.  Space is really spacey so lots of room!

Done.


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#1056 2023-05-22 05:40:40

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,070

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Technically Nuclear was contemplated for the continuation of Apollo, I believe.  That was to access Mars.  It is curious that Blue Origin is to quest for it now, but a good thing.  https://www.extremetech.com/defense/321 … 4literally.  Quote:

DARPA Taps Blue Origin for Nuclear-Powered Rocket
The contracts from the Pentagon's Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) direct Blue Origin, as well as Lockheed Martin and General Atomics, to design a nuclear thermal propulsion system that could accelerate human spaceflight—literally.
By Ryan Whitwam April 14, 2021

I presume that in the 60's they understood that this would be worthwhile for objectives like Mars, so I presume now that if tankers took Hydrogen from Earth to orbit it would be worthwhile.

I presume as well, that a different type of Nuclear might power an Argon Electric System which could possibly get Argon from the Moon as well as Earth.

I have been trying to stick with things Apollo, but now will deviate, I think that either Nuclear or Solar might use mass driver propulsions.  My favorite "Throw-Mass" is Oxygen, which might be available from many places, including the Moon.

Those possible propulsion methods may also facilitate the Movement of LOX and Hardware built on the Moon to travel to LEO and Mars.

I would consider that as likely being important.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-22 05:49:03)


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#1057 2023-05-22 10:38:55

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,070

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

At this time, I am moving even more towards things not strongly relocatable to Apollo, but which could be intertwined with updated Apollo similar methods.

Solar Sailing methods.  Solar Wind and Photon Sails.  I have wondered about what results might be for combining the two.

But, for now Photon Sails.  Information I have gathered about them is very interesting.


aerographite:
https://www.observatoiredeparis.psl.eu/ … ts%20speed.

https://www.centauri-dreams.org/2020/07 … lications/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_sail

The way I understand it, for interplanetary or interworld transfers, you want quick at time, usually concerning human passengers, and you want efficient for large mass transfers, and may tolerate longer time periods for the later.  So, solar sails, in part supporting quick human transfers looks sensible to me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_sail
A nice chart is in the link, about missions to terrestrial planets.
Surprisingly deliveries to Mercury appear to be Surprising, and to Mars is not too bad.
Mars, 338 days > 70 tons
Mercury 600 d > 66 tons
Venus 270 d > 36 tons

I believe the sail is indicated to be 800 x 800 Meters in size.

So, those are nice numbers to estimate relative performance with, but I wonder about Earth<>Moon performances.  In such a situation, the device may be upwind, downwind, and two types of sidewind to the sun ~a month.

So, the device may assist the transfer of masses that may support spaceflight infrastructure.

An interesting feature of this that has occurred to me is for such a craft to chase down dispersed loads and capture them.  For instance, for the moon, if a mass driver were to shoot loads into an "L" pocket, could it shift about catching them?

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-22 11:00:47)


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#1058 2023-05-22 11:54:34

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,070

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Well, I am starting to loop around to previous things and consider them more.

The concept of Tesla Bot (Or Handle, etc.), in an artificial gravity situation.

Anyway, if it seems possible to lift Oxygen from the Moon to move to LEO, (Maybe), then how about lifting loads from the Moon to process in artificial gravity devices?

These Lunar materials could be raw but more likely would be pretreated in the Lunar environment prior to export. 

As far as artificial gravity for robots, that does not imply that they require air pressure and other protective measures to the same degree as humans.

While microgravity has its values it seems, many robots may do well with a gravity or simulated gravity situation.  Many processes we are familiar with on Earth will do better with some kind of gravity than to be in microgravity.

So early facilities for these purposes could be spin gravity without pressurization and without strong protections per radiation and temperature, unless those are required in a process.

Since it is likely that many processes from Earth will be adapted to Lunar gravity, then industrial spin gravity devices may have a Lunar simulation for gravity for the sake of adaptation from Lunar Adaptations to this new adaptation.

Such "Space Stations"" might be in association with Microgravity stations and also Vast Space "Stick" stations.

So, I am thinking that like in a steel making process you may not locate the whole process, ore to finished product, in the same location.

So, if that is true then eventually you might want to fire shells of partly processed materials up from the Moon and snatch them by some method, not too different than for 70's speculations.  Gerard K. O'Neill stuff.  As per kdb512 thinking the shells might have a secondary propulsion such as leaking gas?  Anyway you would then catch them.

It may be that they could simply go to a 50-mile, (80.4672 km), orbit and a solar powered craft could collect them for shipment to a robotic processing station.  It may be that such a station could actually maintain itself in a Lunar orbit.  It may be able to propel itself with mass driver methods.

Slag fired out in a retrograde direction might impact the Moon and so not dirty the orbits.  It may also have solar propulsion methods as well.  It might be that excess Oxygen could be fired out of a propulsion device as well.

Prior to the Mass Driver process to fire "Shells" up to an orbit, it may be that it would pay to lift them with chemical engine spacecraft.  I don't know.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-05-22 12:16:42)


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#1059 2023-05-22 12:32:32

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,070

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Lunar Rotovator is a query phrase of interest.

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Lunar+Rot … 81f7b6f6e2

https://everything2.com/title/lunar+rotovator

Isaac Arthur has a comment here: https://www.reddit.com/r/IsaacArthur/co … _elevator/

For my part I would seek to minimize ambition.  Make it as small as is worth the trouble.

I also notice that typically people do not blend a concept with another.  While a tether will lose its momentum while lifting loads, if you have propulsion methods associated with it that can be OK.  Solar wind, Solar Photon, Mass Driver, Etc.

Also, I have considered the idea that the tether catcher might be a net, and that a mass driver on the surface would fire shells for it to catch.

Anyway, we are getting far from Apollo now but that is OK by me.  New methods could support methods derived from Apollo methods.

So, a bunch of robots on the Moon would pre-process Lunar materials into shells to fire out of a Mass Driver, and a tether system would catch them in a net from their sub-orbital paths.

The ability to quickly maneuver the net to compensate for deviations would be desired.  Structure of the tether might help with that, and also, I have considered rocket engines on the net.  But then you need fuel, hopefully just a small amount of it.

Such fuel could come from Earth or another world.  Oxygen would come from the Moon.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-22 12:45:01)


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#1060 2023-05-23 09:15:27

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,070

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I think that it curious that Blue Origin is getting involved in Nuclear Space Propulsion and SpaceX is associating with Vastspace.com.  In other words, Blue Origin perhaps to become longer distance in space and SpaceX to become more about space habitats in orbit.  They come from different original intentions and yet are spreading into each other's previous domains of interest.  I think it is good as they will likely do things very differently from each other, and we will benefit from it.

I been thinking about gravitation and gravity simulations.

Microgravity production facilities almost certainly involves highly processed materials, and clean environments and the more humans can be remote from the processes per practicality, the better for that.

But for dirty processes, a bit of gravity or gravity simulation is likely to assist cleanup of messes.

The factor for Human Health and gravity equivalent, is being discovered.  As examples we do not have long-term understanding of Lunar and Mars equivalent gravity and health.

But I do believe the Moon and it's gravity exist, and a gravity simulation may be more "Cleanable" than microgravity, and perhaps may keep humans healthier longer than microgravity would.

I have recently discussed minimal conditions for robotics in synthetic gravity devices.  I believe this was implied by works of the ~70's about rotating habitats, but in those days the focus was on parkland visions.  Good advertising of course.  But in the real world "Sweaty dirty robots doing work" will be very important, I feel.  (Of course not sweaty).

So a shop floor for that on the Moon may not involve a pressurized space, but there could be pressurized rooms and vehicles for humans in it to some small degree.  Similar could be true for synthetic gravity factories in orbit.

Since the Moon is nearby in a relative sense, and has ~1/6 gravity, we might consider that value for spin factory space.  Solutions for each environment may be similar.

So, while I will be happy to see the "Stick" , (Baton), type syngrav devices, I would think that such could be in association with a spin factory space.  And the value of g for that would likely be ~1/6 g.

The "Stick" could be embedded into the spin factory.  So, the "Stick" would create an environmental simulation suitable for long term human health, but the bulk of the factory floor would not.

So, I don't like cylinders for the factory floor because of gyroscopic flipping.  So I think a wheel.  The "Stick" would extend beyond it's circumference on both ends of the "Stick".

You would not have formal airlocks to get onto the factory floor.  There may not even be a ceiling on the factory ring, except for thermal and micrometeor concerns.

So the factory floor space is simply an upgraded space environment.  But suitable for robots to work in.

And then I presume that materials to process will be brought in and processed materials brought out.

https://www.vastspace.com/

Good Enough.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-23 09:47:56)


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#1061 2023-05-23 10:03:58

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,070

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

So, I guess we might call that a "Robot Deck" if it is on the Moon or on a space station.

And this seems to fit in a bit with that: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/news/ho … cdf3&ei=13
Quote:

How Elon Musk Plans To Deal With The Biggest 'Bottleneck' Of Human Progress
Story by Ananya Gairola • 9h ago

I have, in the past considered "Avatar" type stuff like this, but just as NOT(I have spaceships), and NOT(I have Neuralink)
smile

Taken to an extreme, "Brain In A Bottle", with Avatar (Maybe) Robot Bodies.

Biologically if you would wire a human to run on electric power and be a "Brain in a Bottle".  It would be more than a brain.  But to get away from eating other organisms, the first step would be to eat Hydrogen and perhaps breath Oxygen.
But since you have to make your Oxygen and Hydrogen by electrolysis or something else, you might as well wire up the Brain in a Bottle (With an equivalent of other organs).

Such may then travel between stars, if you can maintain the patterns of the biological machinery.

Bored, brain in a bottle?  Well sleep while the computer watches over you.  We will arrive at the next star in about 187 years.  Take a nap smile  Or enjoy the Holodeck and have fascinating interactions with other brains in bottles.

The morality of predation is in question, but it is what formed us.  Even vegetables do not want to be eaten, (Most of the time).

I wonder, is it immoral to eat Photons?  After all they were on a path, and you interrupted them.  But you did give birth to other ones with a longer wavelength.

-----

We are not very far down that path yet.  However, if there are robots on the Moon, it may be possible that people will be allowed to come along for the ride perceptually.

Some riders may be allowed to instruct the robot what to do as well.

So, down the road, you could go for a walk on Mars or the Moon, and not need a space suit.

Not a bad notion, I think.

Done.

Hopefully people with some psychosocial challenges will not be jolted too far from reality by the above.  I can be an extremely bad influence to some people that way and I do care.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-23 10:22:34)


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#1062 2023-05-23 10:56:11

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,070

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Well, I guess I will spend another day being less than responsible.

I would not mind having a bit of help from other members if they wish.

I am trying to bond Lunar Mass Drivers to Tether Snatcher Methods, to get semi-processed materials from the Moon to orbit.

The general idea is to shoot slugs up from a Mass drive, and to the net them on the end of a rotovator method.

A food visual would be netting fish.  That involves a human arm typically and a net where the mouth of the net is larger than the following apex of the net.  So, indeed instead of only a tether with a hook to grab things from the ground, you could have a tether with a robot arm on it's end that manipulates a net to catch the "Fish".

The combination of the tether and net has a certain amount of shock absorption qualities as well, and those might be enhanced by nature of structure.  The Robot Arm may also have rocket thrusters, for quick maneuvers, and you may also "Twang" the tether to change the location where the net will be in space and timing.

So, if the "Flying Fish" are made, then they will be made for function and also for content.  There would be a desire for them to be composed of desired materials.  Materials desired in orbit. Then for the other materials the preference would be that they be useful on the surface of the Moon.

As the system will lift Moon materials to orbit, the tether will tend to fall down, so "Make-Up" propulsion is needed.

That could be some type of Action-Reaction of Mass or perhaps sails for Photons or Solar Wind.  Maybe some other things not yet thought of???

A parallel exists in the case of Steel Making.  You make Taconite into Pellets and those then go to the blast furnace.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taconite
Image Quote: 375px-TaconitePellet.JPG

Really not a strange concept because in the ~70's vision Mass Drivers were to shoot bags of regolith to a collector in a "L" location.  That is the equivalent to a degree of manufacturing the "Flying Fish" I have suggested.

One thing about using a Mass Driver system with a Net Tether system is that the tether does not have to supply all the orbital energy.  Also it is less likely that the net/hook would bang into the Lunar surface.

We may also want additional means of propulsion internal to the "Flying Fish".  I know that kdb512 can give me good words for this.

My current vision for this would be the "Flying Fish" has a very hot part and a very cold part.  Liquid Oxygen passes from the cold tank into the hot part to give an Oxygen Steam Thrust.  This may allow for a better-quality orbit for the "Flying Fish".  But tricky to do.  The cold part may be in part magnetic, but the hot part will not be.

Without the Oxygen Steam method, the orbit will be ballistic, which would be OK if that is what you wanted.  But with a more circular orbit the opportunities for the net to snatch the fish could be better.  The Oxygen Steam method might require a non-combustible ceramic, but if you wanted to you could put hot combustible metal in the path of the Oxygen steam and get a chemical reaction like a solid rocket booster.  This would be a onetime action so if the "Flying Fish" would be physically altered by the process it may not be considered intolerable.

Many Lunar orbits are "Self-Cleaning", which could be a good thing.  We will not want a "Kestler Syndrome" in the Lunar Orbits we will want to use.

So, we may have a path here:
Mass Driver Launch>"Binary Thermal Oxygen Steam">Chemical Reaction>Tether Snatch> "Low Lunar Orbit".

After that we will want desirable means to move the elevated product to other orbits.

I would really love some help, please.


Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-23 11:43:36)


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#1063 2023-05-23 12:04:23

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,070

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

So, now I am satisfied that frivolous use of Hydrogen can be avoided for launching bulk mass from the Moon.  I think it could work.  So, then a robot work force on the Moon becomes more valuable, presuming they can be built to be useful for the task.

And it may be that Humans on Earth will be able to "Ride Along" virtually with the robots.  Trained and responsible people may even be allowed to "Drive" some of the robots as Avatars.

So, then to me this gives the possibility that resources from the Moon may be helpful for both the dreams of Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk and the like.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-23 12:07:03)


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#1064 2023-05-23 14:21:17

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,070

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Another Video:

SpaceX and VAST Launching First Commercial Space Station by 2025

Adventures in Space
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PpXJhF_EmM

Steve Stewart also showed a European method which I also like a lot: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 15#p209015

So, this kind of seems to indicate that a lot of up-mass business for providers to LEO will not need to also send a lot of propellants to burn.  Rather, I think that Argon Electric may be able to do more lifting, so that the orginal lift can be to temporary low orbits, and then to lift up to better higher orbits.  I am sure Starship and New Glen and others might do the lifting for Argon.

But as things develop, it may become possible to move resources from the Moon and maybe some asteroids to these stations to expand them, and also maintain their orbits.  I would suppose Argon might come from the Moon, but I am also very interested in propulsion methods that would expel Oxygen without using a fuel, in order to propel spaceships and to maintain station orbits.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-23 14:30:49)


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#1065 2023-05-23 19:16:02

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,070

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

As per Vast Space concepts, I have something I would call a "Maybe".

SpaceX has typically expressed the opinion that they wanted to avoid a "Can within a can" situation.  But Vast Space modules are just that during transit.  Could such additions to "Stick" space stations, first serve as cans for a fluid transfer?

Water, Argon, Nitrogen?  Other?

There have been attempts to adapt propellant tanks to be habitats, but maybe the reverse would work better.  Build the can to be habitat, and then use it once as a container to bring up-mass to orbit.

Maybe.

The canisters would be nose cone shaped to fit the Starship or other ship fairings.  Then linked together into a "Stick" a line of cones.  With the narrow end of the cones upwards per the spin gravity.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-23 19:21:47)


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#1066 2023-05-24 09:09:13

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,070

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I like to pull in things that seem to contrast sometimes.  I don't like to take it to the level of a binary executive decision however.  This is a bit about nuclear propulsion.

Megaprojects, Nuclear Propulsion From Earth to Mars in Just 45 Days
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Me … &FORM=VIRE

A thing that has annoyed me is how, (B4), NASA and SpaceX plans did not fit together.  I even felt that when watching the above video.  But I have changed my mind.

I have been thinking about what a "Vast Space" device that only does ~(Moon gravity), would look like.

It's primary two components would be in the shape of two, (Starship), nose cones connected to create a visual like an hourglass.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hourglass
330px-Half-hour_sand_glass_MET_ES268.jpg

https://www.hobbylobby.com/Home-Decor-F … atch%20All
350Wx350H-1956697-0720-px.jpg

So, there could be two "Lobes" and a "Neck.".  I don't care if the gravitation simulation is low.  For now I presume that if any gravity simulation such as ~Lunar, it could be helpful to human comfort and likely health.

The two "Lobes" would be sized to fit in the Starship fairings perhaps.

Now, if Nuclear is so good, then this thing could be outfitted to have it.  I would want to see effort to generate power for the ships life support and for propulsion methods.

It may not be apparent how aerobraking might be used with this, I confess, but you would not aerobrake a nuclear rocket to Earth anyway.  Not unless you were crazy.  You could possibly do a limited amount of aerocapture to Mars however, but I do not emphasize the notion.

If you wanted more g force on a small area for a gym for instance you could put additional partial "Stick" modules to project from the floors of each lobe.  Basically, just a couple of additional cylinders to project out.

The ability to use both Nuclear Thermal and Nuclear Electric could be very good.  You could get Hydrogen and Argon from Mars.  But you would have to mine water for that, I guess.

Another possible feature would be continuous Hydro Lox propulsion.  So, for that you would take on water/ice, and bust it into small amounts of Oxygen and Hydrogen and burn it semi-continuously.  Obviously, water could be gotten from Mars.  The advantage of it is how storable the water/ice is and how it is radiation shield materials, and you might grow algae in it at times to help convert CO2 to life support.  While shooting Hydrogen out is a preferred method for Thermal Nuclear, you may shoot water steam out also, I believe.

While I do like the Nuclear, I would not object at all for solar panels as well for this device.

Your options for arrival at Mars could be various.  I favor Ballistic Capture, but you could Spiral in, or if you really want to Hohmann Transfer, then have your joy for that.

As for Earth, if you want to expend the propellants you may do a full stop to orbit.  But is you have Starships attached, maybe this thing would just fly by and would exchange Starships during the flyby.

Ok, and if you have the kind of life support this device might offer, you don't need to go to Mars in 45 days.  You can take much longer.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-24 09:56:44)


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#1067 2023-05-24 10:04:45

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,070

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

For the just previous post you might also add on a magnetic bubble drive which would provide some protection from GCR, and also be able to assist at times for the propulsion method, reducing the amount of propellant mass required.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_ma … g%20vessel.

Quote:

Plasma magnet

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A plasma magnet is a proposed spacecraft propulsion device that uses a dipole magnetic field to capture energy from the solar wind.[1][2] The field acts as a sail, using the captured energy to propel the spacecraft analogously to how the wind propels a sailing vessel. It could accelerate a vessel moving away from the sun and decelerate it when approaching a distant star at the end of an interstellar journey. Thrust vectoring and steering could be achieved by manipulating the dipole tilt for any type of magnetic sail.[3]

So, if it gets energy from nuclear it is a nuclear space drive.  If from solar panels, then it is a solar space drive.

Possibly some GCR protection from magnetics as well: https://arc.aiaa.org/doi/10.2514/1.A347 … GCR%20flux.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-24 10:10:56)


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#1068 2023-05-24 11:20:22

Void
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Posts: 7,070

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

As for "Sticks" made of Cones that is a possibility, or perhaps simply a sized up dual cone arrangement, as habitats, not particularly intended for travel but hot forbidden from being moved.

In order to avoid gyroscopic flipping, it may be possible to seek to keep the bulk of the mass close to an imaginary plane of a spin disk.  And more open areas would be away from the imaginary disk of spin.  Also solar panels on the outside would be oriented on that imaginary disk.

The device having two lobes then has a place to evacuate to and from in the case of a mishap.

If it was desired to gang these then they would have a bearing from two sides of the neck to a main platform.

Lighting is an issue, but most farming will be done in low g greenhouses elsewhere most likely.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-24 11:24:33)


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#1069 2023-05-25 05:44:37

Void
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Posts: 7,070

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

For now, fairing Size matters.  I could make the argument that building Space Habitats is Para Terraforming, pretty much like building "Domes" on a planet.

For "Stick" or "Baton" synthetic gravity devices, much of the structure does not need that big a Fairing size.  That is demonstrated as Vast Space will start with a Falcon 9 Fairing.

For now the biggest Fairing is Starship 1.0  Starship 2.0, if it ever is made of course would be bigger.

From the 70's concepts more or less came the Stanford Torus and also the dual cylinders of the camp of Gerard K. O'Neill.

Vast seems to hint that from the stick they might go to a toroidal concept.

But now I am also looking at a "Dual Bell" notion.  But of course you could have a disk of bells.  If the phrase "Dual Cones" works better for your inner eye then use that.

https://www.spacex.com/vehicles/starshi … nd%20cargo.
Quote:

The Starship payload fairing is 9 m in diameter and 18 m high, resulting in the largest usable payload volume of any current or in development launcher. This payload volume can be configured for both crew and cargo.

For me, feet still help visually, so 29.5275591 by 59.0551181.

Starship 2.0 would be: https://wallstreetrebel.com/wsr/videos/ … 32-14.html  Quote:

Based on the specs, SpaceX's Starship 2.0 may be the largest rocket ever constructed. Cross-sectionally, SpaceX's Starship 2.0 is planned to be four times larger than the Starship 1.0, with nine times greater capacity. The anticipated size of SpaceX's Starship 2.0 is eight times that of the original Starship.

So double the dimensions of wide and high.

I think 4 times the floor space, and of course you could have multiple floors in a cone.

Of course rings and cylinders are valid notions, but a cone with a tapered nose allows relatively easy connection to a central hub.

Probably more achievable in the near future in my opinion.

But the design might not be wrong for mega installations later on when it becomes possible to a greater degree to build in space from obtained less processed materials.

Like the other notions of structure, I am sure this one will have drawbacks and also benefits.  But if structures are going to be made in space, then the option to try much and do much exists.  So, probably all types will come to exist in some form.

Eventually it may be that many structures will be embedded in a larger structure such as this concept: https://www.sciencealert.com/could-huma … anet-ceres
Quote: satellite-1.jpg
In the diagram each dot is to represent a spinner of some kind.  I think they intended cylinders.  But outhers could be allowed, I expect.

Due to the teachings of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_A._Heinlein
Specialization is not for humans.  But specialization for agriculture may be a profitable thing in space.

Some spinners could be for agriculture and have conditions different for different crops.

Towards the extreme, a "Greenhouse" with a 50 millibar atmosphere may be able to grow things like Cyanobacteria/Algae in bulk.  Such may not spin at all.

100 millibar may allow vascular plants.  Even these may not be spinners.

Humans would not be well suited to this but robots could be.

For spiritual comfort, parks and tiny farm simulations may be made available to humans.

The 70's level visions which sort of suggest the blending of farming, cities, and suburbs in one habitat may not be the best way to accomplish wealth acquisition.  So, having vast window separating the vacuum of space from human level pressurization may not be the best way to do things, unless you want a special observatory, or some place to be in the sunlight.

So a Dual-Bell habitat may be just fine for humans, but not necessarily the best for bulk agriculture.

It can be expected that these devices will leak over time, so losses of volatiles to be swept away by the solar wind can be a concern over longer time spans.

So, a possible solution for that could be to put a magnetic field around a world having some gravity.  Mars for instance.

Chances are that if your habitats slowly leak, that material may be protected from being swept away by the combination of a blocking magnetic field and a gravity field.  So, then it may accrete back to Mars, where it could be taken from again.

This trick could be done for Venus, and perhaps in some way for Ceres as examples.

This trick may not be attainable for a device simply orbiting the sun.  Over thousands of years volatiles may run out.  So, perhaps that sort of deployment should be less common.

I think many "Mars Bugs" have a concept that does not include orbital habitats, but Mars being a small world, is likely suitable for it.  And a whole lot of habitat space could be built in the orbits of Mars.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-25 06:37:25)


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#1070 2023-05-25 10:28:01

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,070

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

So, if we were to make "Spaceship Castles", (Isaac Arthur term): https://www.bing.com/shop?entryPoint=ms … 1704025948

With some resemblance to this quote from the above: th?id=OP.JWihVqm6kJYaBg474C474&w=592&h=550&o=5&dpr=1.3&pid=21.1

They could be of a traditional notion of a spaceship, but I am inclined to have some "Add-On's" which may be beneficial.  I suppose things that may contribute to life support and propulsion as center to the stage of it.

A factor is magnetics and what it might do for the device and its support.

Two of those are Plasma Bubble propulsion and also Mass Driver propulsion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_driver
Quote:

One possible drawback of the mass driver is that it has the potential to send solid reaction mass travelling at dangerously high relative speeds into useful orbits and traffic lanes. To overcome this problem, most schemes plan to throw finely-divided dust. Alternatively, liquid oxygen could be used as reaction mass, which upon release would boil down to its molecular state. Propelling the reaction mass to solar escape velocity is another way to ensure that it will not remain a hazard.

The above is very important, as even if Phobos and Deimos do not have Hydrogen available, or even Carbon, they will provide Magnetic Dust and Oxygen, which can be throw mass and also serve to fill other needs as well.

And from Mars itself can come Dry Ice and Water, perhaps small quantities of special minerals.  Argon as well, I now recall.  These things could also be ejected with a Mass Driver, or could be processed to make chemical propellants.  You could burn the propellants as you make it or if you have tanks then store it for a special event like an Oberth pass of the Earth or some other planet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Mars
Quote:

Argon is the third most abundant gas in the Martian atmosphere. It has a mean volume ratio of 1.9%. In terms of stable isotopes, Mars is enriched in 38 Ar relative to 36 Ar, which can be attributed to hydrodynamic escape. One of Argon's isotopes, 40 Ar, is produced from the radioactive decay of 40 K. See more

And Argon may be used in Electric Rocket propulsion.

So, then it you can get this thing to an orbit of Mars, you can fill its "Tanks" with needed materials, with relative ease, compared to the Earth/Moon.

So, there is a whole lot about this "Platform" which would benefit from having a good electric grid.  And I think a combination of Nuclear and Solar may be very suitable.  The Nuclear is even better for passing Venus than for the danger of passing the Earth.  It is my view that a craft like this based with Mars/Phobos/Deimos, could help to open Venus up as materials could be aero-captured to Venus from this craft.

Wile raw materials can be gotten from Mars and converted to resources, during the orbit of the sun and in positions of Mars, the craft will receive momentum from the sun from Photons and the Solar Wind.  For this craft, I tend to think that a magnetic bubble may assist at propulsion and navigation by interacting with the Solar wind, but it might be that photon sails might also somehow be included.

Photon Sails are better towards the sun of course, and for sailing on the Solar wind, provided you have a constant energy source for the magnetic bubble, the force is very similar at Earth or Mars as the bubble expands in size as the force of the solar wind diminishes.

I do favor the flyby of the inner planet, which could be Earth or Venus.  I do favor a stop at the outer planet which could be Earth/Moon or Mars/Phobos/Deimos.

In the case of the Earth a well built infrastructure and large labor pool of humans and robots, can mitigate the danger of docking to and departing from such a fly-by maneuver.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-25 11:00:46)


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#1071 2023-05-25 11:35:33

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,070

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

So then, about getting resources from the Moon to orbits.

I previously speculated on the use of Mass Driver, Thermal, Chemical, and Tether methods to achieve this.

I anticipate that this could be supported by a relatively low-cost labor pool, on the Moon.  That would almost completely be composed of robots and robotics.

I like this Indea, as it can be a nursery for all of the components, and to be useful each component does not have to be pushed to the limits of potentials.

The Mass Driver could be similar to that proposed in the 70's with a magnetic sled tossing bags of regolith, but what I want to do is eliminate the sled and make the loads fashioned to respond to the magnetic coils of the mass driver directly.

If the "Loads" have a cold and hot side, then there are ways to do that for both.  On the cold side Iron/Nickle may work.  On the hot side I think that Aluminum coils could do inductive reaction.

So, these "loads" will be constructed devices composed of various manufactured sub-devices.
So, if the cold side can accommodate a small tank of LOX, then that LOX can be used to create a steam of Oxygen by passing it through the hot portion.  But the Aluminum coils which were perhaps hot and were used to create inductive reaction where the Mass Driver acts as a "Stator" and the coils behave like they are in the rotor of an inductive motor, that Aluminum may function like a fuel, particularly if the Aluminum is hot.  So, the Oxygen Steam may do a chemical reaction.  So, then this is a chemical reaction.

And then finally it may be possible to catch these "Loads" using a tether method.

Not every component of a "Load" would be reduced.  Some parts may have Oxygen chemically bound to them, so these loads once captured to orbit could Yield metals, Silicates and Oxygen.

For propulsion, Oxygen has many uses.  It may even be expelled from a spacecraft mass driver.  Under certain circumstances even magnetic dust can be used as a propellant.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-25 11:48:53)


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#1072 2023-05-25 11:59:02

Void
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Posts: 7,070

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Now, about mass from the Earth.  I do understand the notion of propellant tankers to orbit.  But I think I have shown how cone envelopes that could fit into the fairings of rocket devices including Starships.  If these "Crates" can be purposely be built to be suitable to have a "Second Life" as space habitat, then they may be used first to bring a resource to LEO.

LOX, Liquid Methane, and Liquid Hydrogen are all going to be hard to move to orbit by such a method, but;
-Water
-Dry Ice
-Argon
-Nitrogen

Will be easier.

If you have these things in orbits, you may manufacture propellants and do other functions as well.

So, you might want to have a refrigerator to put these containers into temporarily  For some of these it does not have to be that cold.

And when you are done you have a "Cone-Crate" that was intentionally given qualities to allow them to be repurposed to be habitat and spacecraft.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-25 12:04:44)


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#1073 2023-05-25 12:30:06

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,070

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I might think to modify the just previous post.

Canisters of:
-Water
-Carbon
-Argon
-Nitrogen

Some of these may be sent to the Moon orbits.

Argon and Nitrogen need special boil-off prevention methods.  Water and Carbon do not.

If you send the canisters to Lunar Orbit by the Argon Canister with Electric Propulsion, then deliver what is needed, this is much more efficient than by Methalox or Hydrolox.  But then the propellants can be manufactured.  Over time resources would more come from the Moon, but by that time many canisters would be provided to Lunar locations.

Habitats and ships fashioned to a degree with them.

The idea of inflatable habitats in orbit is good, but really it is a canister with a balloon in it.  In this case it would be canisters with a resource in them.  I feel both ideas are good.

But canisters built to be daisy chained like in the Vast Space concepts may work well.  And they don't have to be synthetic gravity in nature, some could be microgravity oriented for the production of wealth.

Canisters of water or Carbon could also be used as radiation shielding prior to reuse.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-25 12:36:42)


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#1074 2023-05-25 19:37:06

Void
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Posts: 7,070

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I feel that there is quite a nice video from the Angry Astronaut included in this materials:

I have seen the angry video, but need to look at some of this other materials.

OK, I have not reviewed all the above materials yet.

But my continuation of an idea is a "Rock Rocket".  That is I would want a payload made of Lunar Regolith melted into a lump.  Inside of that I want channels where liquid Aluminum could function as electromagnetic propulsion coils to respond to Mass Driver stimulation.  A LOX tank might be attached to the nose of the device.

The reason for Rock is that these would be mineral Oxides and so would carry Oxygen with them.  The refined Aluminum may still serve as inductive motor coils, to allow the load to be shot by the Mass Driver.

After the magnetic launch the Aluminum becomes molten fuel for combustion, but also the hot rock provides thrust if Oxygen is conducted through the device in some way.  Aphelion point.

What else is needed is computation ability and navigation ability.  Probably time delay on the Oxygen Steam / Chemical Burn, as you want to get up to the high point of orbit do that. 

This is fun as per Mass Drivers magnetics: https://www.msn.com/en-us/foodanddrink/ … 68f2&ei=14

If you have a tether robot with an arm and net, then it might see the hot item and net it.

It's a rough guesstimate, but I think its possible that it is on a good track.

Nice stuff, this Moon stuff, and while Mars does not have to wait for it maybe the Moon can give timely assistance to the Mars efforts after all.

A thing to note is that Liquid Oxygen is paramagnetic and also it may be possible to include magnetic metals to the Oxygen tank, so it might not be just the Liquid Aluminum coils that would be pushed by the Mass Driver.


Done

Last edited by Void (2023-05-25 20:14:43)


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#1075 2023-05-26 18:40:22

Void
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

The results of this query pleases me today: "oxygen mass driver"

Bing, however underwhelms me :https://www.bing.com/search?q=oxygen+mass+driver&form=ANNTH1&refig=de980cd56ce7468e9d958cc4898b9515

I will have to fetch some better stuff from another source.  With painful effort, "It can be done".

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/1061772
Quote:

Abstract:
The mass driver reaction engine (MDRE) can be used for the transfer of large payloads (hundreds to thousands of tons or more) between low Earth orbit (LEO) and geosynchronous orbit (GEO) or beyond. The mass driver is a device for converting electric energy into kinetic energy of motion of reaction mass. It consists of an accelerator/decelerator and a number of "buckets". Each bucket has a cavity to contain a payload (reaction mass), and has one or more superconducting coils, but no moving parts. The reaction mass can be virtually any liquid or solid material, in any physical form. The machine could accelerate, for example, liquid oxygen, powdered metal recovered in orbit from surplus Shuttle external tanks, or raw lunar soil. The reaction mass and exhaust velocity can be chosen so that this effluent will have minimal effects in terms of leaving debris in orbit or disturbing the Earth's ionosphere. Preliminary configurations of a typical MDRE are presented. The LEO to GEO cargo orbit transfer mission events are outlined. Basic rocket equations are developed for LEO to GEO round-trip missions using a single exhaust velocity. Delivered payload, reaction mass, trip time, reaction mass flow rate, and power required are presented for different missions, specific power plant masses and efficiencies. Reaction mass trajectories, debris hazard, and effects on the Earth's ionosphere are discussed in terms of different thrusting strategies.

I guess that is good enough.  The virtues of Oxygen!

So, given a Mass Driver properly equipped, Oxygen can be a Monopropellant.  Oxygen can also be a coolant, and of course you can derive energy by using it to Oxidize fuels.

And of course, you can breathe it.

We could hope to bring it to orbit from Earth, maybe scoop it up from the Earth's atmosphere, get it from the Moon, and I expect it can be obtained from Phobos, Deimos, and Mars of course, and also asteroids, and in particular Stony asteroids.

So, we can get all the propellant we want and what is left over is construction materials.

Blue Origin apparently has such a process and so also do the Europeans/British.

Blue: https://www.blueorigin.com/news/blue-al … ar-future/

Europe: https://www.gadgets360.com/science/news … nt-2167010

Synthetic Gravity methods will be developed with SpaceX and especially Fastspace: https://www.vastspace.com/

Even Stony Asteroids may have some water, and other types may have a lot of water.
Stony: https://www.sciencenews.org/article/wat … e-bone-dry

Others may have more: (And apparently do)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chondrite … alteration.

While I am still an advocate for the settlement of Mars, I have to say that I think that orbital habitats could end up being the best part of such settling.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-26 19:11:47)


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