Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Void · 2023-05-14 10:57:59

While I am very interested in the expansion of SpaceX into the VAST, I now consider further spaceship/station options for Near Terrestrial Asteroids. Venus Crossers:

Query: Venus crossing asteroids

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Venus+cro … b9744b8d40

Quite a list of Venus Crossers and Grazers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_V … or_planets

Some are also Mercury Crossers.

Metalic?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3554_Amun
Image Quote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/(6178)_1986_DA

Possible "C" Types:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2100_Ra-Shalom

Possible Extinct Comet?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2101_Adonis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3200_Phaethon
Image Quote:

Asteroids with a 3:1 resonance with Jupiter:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3360_Syrinx
It is a member of the Alinda group, which have some very interesting orbital characteristics. This is a list as well:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alinda_asteroid
Quote:

The Alinda asteroids are a dynamical group of asteroids with a semi-major axis of about 2.5 AU and an orbital eccentricity approximately between 0.4 and 0.65.[1] The namesake is 887 Alinda, discovered by Max Wolf in 1918.
These objects are held in this region by the 3:1 orbital resonance with Jupiter (2.502 AU), which results in their being close to a 1:4 resonance with Earth (2.520 AU). An object in this resonance has its orbital eccentricity steadily increased by gravitational interactions with Jupiter until it eventually has a close encounter with an inner planet that breaks the resonance.
Some Alindas have perihelia very close to Earth's orbit, resulting in a series of close encounters at almost exactly four-year intervals, due to the 1:4 near resonance.

That is much more than I expected to be possible.

A little bit about "C" type asteroids: https://nineplanets.org/c-type-asteroids/

I think that most of the small Venus crossers will be stony though. Even so these may be a bit enriched in water by the solar wind. That is at least possible.

So, there are some ~1 to 10 km sized asteroids that cross terrestrial planet orbits. These could be taken into control, to make various cyclers. In the case of Venus, I think that it might be possible by Photon Sails and aerobraking to bring some of the materials to the orbits of Venus.

Vast Space technology along with SpaceX and others may make it an actual possible thing.

Done

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Yo … 6e55ea4e4c

Last edited by Void (2023-05-14 11:37:52)

Void · 2023-05-14 12:30:37

I suppose this might be an interesting notion: "Flying Squirrel."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_squirrel

I had suggested earlier that aerobrake methods might resemble bats, dragons, or birds. But of course in thin upper atmosphere you are not going to flap wings.

Venus, Earth, Mars, and Titan could receive such. Maybe at times Triton and Pluto.

As Mars has Phobos and Deimos and has a low gravity near temperate surface this is less important for it.

Venus might benefit from receiving such, to make it more useful to humans and their machines.

Webs of materials manufactured from materials of low gravity objects might be fashioned into photon sails. Could those then aerobrake to a high orbit of Venus?

And Vast Space stimulates something similar to my thinking: https://www.vastspace.com/
Image Quote:

It is an interesting idea, might it turn out that humans health could be kept reasonably good with stick/baton artificial gravity? We might find out.

Relativity Space is working on 3D printers which may eventually be able to build spaceships in space, so why not then eventually such devices equipped with solar power and at first also hosting large scale solar sails? Then upon approaching Venus, perhaps transforming the solar sails materials to another use. Aerobrake into an orbit of Venus, and simply bask there?

https://www.space.com/relativity-space- … n-r-rocket

Granted, over time as well it would probably be desired to have something in the clouds of Venus, a source of chemicals to orbit at least, including Hydrogen perhaps.

Imaging these formed from sources like the Asteroid belt objects, maybe Mercury, Maybe our Moon.

It is true that with mirrors you can have concentrated solar power at the asteroid belt, but at Venus such machinery will give you much more. If you can get the materials delivered there then it may be quite an asset.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-05-14 12:52:36)

Void · 2023-05-14 13:30:38

So, I don't think that it would be that hard to construct such devices from Venus crossing asteroids, and to to sail some of the to air brake into the Venus gravity well.

Many of these asteroids are stony, but we might suppose that they might have some water from the solar wind, and some will be Carbonaceous in nature.

If there is a lack of organic chemicals at these stony asteroids, I suppose some could come in from Mars or more remote asteroids. But Venus itself has much of these, even Hydrogen. And just possibly Mercury could be a donor as well.

So, for Venus if no life is found then a floating city which might have the economic task of supplying chemicals to orbit that are sent to the Orbits of Venus.

Hydrogen, Carbon, Nitrogen, maybe Sulfur, Argon?

Such a floating city could include a few humans, but Tesla Bot and other robotics could be included as well.

So, for the orbits of Venus, we can have the materials of crossing asteroids, and the chemicals in the atmosphere. Eventually perhaps Venus surface materials could be mined, but that might be just to build things in the clouds. I think it may remain easier to bring in asteroid materials for the orbits of Venus.

In case you think I am diverting from Mars, no. There is no reason to do that. Mars will be a very good project of it's own purposes for humans and their machines.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-14 13:37:27)

Void · 2023-05-14 21:20:15

I find it odd that I did not think of joining Venus crossing or grazing asteroids to the resources of Venus. They look like a good fit to me now.

Some current notions about Venus is that it never cooled down enough for liquid water to do as it did for Earth.

I guess a lot more research is needed to try to figure that out. But at this time it is true that large amounts of Carbon and Nitrogen are available from it's atmosphere and much smaller amounts of Hydrogen/Water and Argon are available. Sulfur is available obviously as well.

One way to terraform Venus would be to extract all the Hydrogen from the Sulfuric Acid and prevent it from recombining with Sulfur compounds. So, if it is brought to orbit or contained in floating cities that might do.

In that case the clouds would most likely be less acid and be more so of Oxides of Sulfur.

It seems very unlikely that the Hydrogen in the clouds is left over from previously existing oceans. They may have existed but for us to see the last vestiges of them in the clouds just when we have the ability to observe it seems improbable to me so I anticipate that the Hydrogen is continuously replenished from a reservoir. This could be Volcano's or the Solar wind, in my guessing.

If it is from the solar wind, we may be able to figure out how to scoop it out of the bow-shock impact of the atmosphere facing the sun. If it is from Volcano's then I guess it seems likely that it has to be collected from the atmosphere on a floating platform, and then somehow be moved to orbit as well.

As for Carbon and Nitrogen, I am hoping that tether scoops can collect it to orbit.

As for the Venus crossing asteroids they seem to generally be from about 1 to 10 km in diameter. Replication of machines capable of air braking into Venus orbit might be a nice trick if it could be done. As these objects do cross the orbit of Venus around the sun, the amount of delta v to make them intercept may be relatively small.

So, I think it looks pretty good.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-14 21:54:03)

Void · 2023-05-15 12:55:39

Around Venus, while asteroid materials of Metals and Ceramics should be available, Solid materials could be made out of Carbon and Sulfur from the atmosphere.

Carbon appears to have some value as a radiation shield: https://www.nasa.gov/centers/ames/news/ … ation.html Quote:

Carbon Radiation Shield Test
Gianfranco Grossi and Marco Durante, scientists from the University Frederico II, Naples, Italy, in November 2003 conducted an experiment at Brookhaven National Laboratory, Upton, N.Y., to test how well slabs of 'carbon-filled carbon,' supplied by Marc Cohen, Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, Calif., could protect living material. The Italian scientists used Brookhaven's alternative gradient synchrontron to beam iron and titanium nuclei at the carbon slabs, which shielded human lymphocyte cultures.
Grossi and Durante used a special microscope to look for biological damage in the processed cultures. "The important result is that carbon performed more than five times better than the aluminum in reducing chromosome aberrations," Cohen said. "The surprise was that the carbon shields were slightly better than polyethylene in protecting human chromosomes," Cohen said. Polyethylene used in shielding the International Space Station, contains carbon and hydrogen. Polyethylene is a better radiation shield than aluminum, but existing polyethylene formulations will not hold up under lunar conditions.

Now Rocket Lab seems to have an improved method to build solid objects with Carbon: https://www.space.com/rocket-lab-rosie- … hours.html Quote:

Rocket Lab's 'Rosie' the Robot Can Build a Booster in Just 12 Hours
By Samantha Mathewson published November 18, 2019

Sulfur from the atmosphere of Venus may have uses: "Using Sulfur in Space":
General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Using+Sul … 7cb9742d16

I have seen notions of "Luna Concrete". I do think that at higher temperatures Sulfur could evaporate off, but that does not eliminate all possible uses of it.

Lunar Concrete: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunarcret … 20material.
Quote:

Sulfur based "Waterless Concrete"
This proposal is based on the observation that water is likely to be a precious commodity on the Moon. Also sulfur gains strength in a very short time and doesn't need any period of cooling, unlike hydraulic cement. This would reduce the time that human astronauts would need to be exposed to the surface lunar environment.[9][10]
Sulfur is present on the Moon in the form of the mineral troilite, (FeS)[11] and could be reduced to obtain sulfur. It also doesn't require the ultra high temperatures needed for extraction of cementitious components (e.g. anorthosites).
Sulfur concrete is an established construction material. Strictly speaking it isn't a concrete as there is little by way of chemical reaction. Instead the sulfur acts as a thermoplastic material binding with a non reactive substrate. Cement and water are not required. The concrete doesn't have to be cured, instead it is simply heated to above the melting point of sulfur, 140 °C, and after cooling it reaches high strength immediately.
The best mixture for tensile and compressive strength is 65% JSC-1 lunar regolith simulant and 35% sulfur, with an average compressive strength of 33.8 MPa and tensile strength of 3.7 MPa. Addition of 2% metal fiber increase the compressive strength to 43.0 MPa[12] Addition of silica also increases the strength of the concrete.[13]
This sulfur concrete could be of especial value for dust minimization, for instance to create a launching pad for rockets leaving the Moon.[11]

So, slag from asteroid materials processed might be use in Sulfur based "Concrete", in the orbits of Venus. It may required a shading and protective device around it but may serve to build structures, I think.

And then I would expect that "Plastics" could be manufactured from the Atmospheric materials of Venus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic

And then if you have greenhouses in orbit, it should be possible to "Grow" structural materials, even wood. Wood in general is not that tolerant of the space environment, but perhaps treated would could be. Anyway wood like materials would work well in pressurized environments, in some cases.

So, anyway, with asteroid materials and chemistry from the atmosphere of Venus, I feel that much could be done in the orbits of Venus.

I think that it would be good if atmospheric mass could be scooped up with tethers, but some rocket use may be sensible as well.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-05-15 13:18:43)

Void · 2023-05-15 13:50:18

Continuing with the just previous post, I wonder about a material made of Sulfur as the glue, and Carbon pieces to glue together. Some of the Carbon could be fibers to give strength.

And then if you have captured asteroid materials you might add that.

As the sunshine at the orbits of Venus will be hot, I guess such a structure would do well to be contained in a "Reflective Metal Foil Bag" type of thing. The bag will be at vacuum more or less so like a thermos bottle to some extent.

Such structures for Mars may work well also, even on the surface, I think.

Back to Venus, I hope that CO2 and Nitrogen could be directly scooped out of the upper atmosphere. But Sulfur would likely need to be purified on floating cloud cities. Then I guess something like Starship. I wonder if Starship could do SSTO from a Cloud City in the atmosphere of Venus? It may also be possible to do suborbital and grab the ships with a tether and pull there payloads up to orbit.

Dealing with Acid will be a problem for the ships, of course. But a powered landing would not be required. If the Ships were filled with Nitrogen after coming down from Orbit or Suborbital, they might float just fine at a suitable altitude 1 bar to 10 bar. Then a lighter then air ship could tow them back to the floating city. Liquid Nitrogen might be used as part of a heat shielding method, to reduce or eliminate tiles for heat shields. The resulting vapors could fill the starship, and keep it from collapsing and to cause it to be buoyant.

I would anticipate that most of the labor would be conducted with robots relatively tolerant of the environments.

Materials brought up to orbit could be Sulfur, Hydrogen, maybe Sulfuric Acid. Mabe Carbon and Nitrogen as well, but I hope they could be scooped up directly.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-15 13:59:45)

Void · 2023-05-15 14:28:27

But then again, what if you did have something like Super Heavy? It also would not need to do a landing burn but could be retrieved by airship.

Granted Sulfuric Acid will be a very bad problem to solve, but if you could get over it, then Venus would possibly be much better for launching payloads to Orbit then Earth, provided you would build up similar infrastructures in the atmosphere of Venus.

Somethings like Neutron or Terran-R might be good for the situation as well.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-05-15 14:29:29)

Void · 2023-05-15 14:31:25

I suppose I am appearing to be a traitor to Mars by now so I will return to Mars for a bit.

The likely progression is that we become able to do Mars and the Moon at approximately similar times. From there we may move to asteroids, and from there could have a look at Venus.

From another post elsewhere: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 89#p209789
Quote:

I am currently more interested in the inner solar system, but this has shown up.
https://www.geekwire.com/2023/microsoft … nationally.
Quote:
Microsoft and Helion want to build the world’s first fusion plant and seize energy’s ‘Holy Grail’
BY LISA STIFFLER on May 10, 2023 at 6:00 am
Something like the above, might work out. I have seen one opinion that solar could be cheaper in the future, but for places where solar does not make sense, developing the outer solar system and the "Way out", may become real.
And I guess that might give eventual answers about alien life or panspermia.
Done

So, now, if they get it done, then that will be very big for Mars of course.

I have already become comfortable with Fission for Mars, and hope that seas generated may provide dissolved Uranium. So, I am just fine with the Helion fusion if it can be done.

I think that it may be that first bases on Mars will be towards the Equator if possible per water and landing locations.

After that though I think that the big push would be to make two polar seas on Mars. Fission and Fusion could help a lot with that, and solar both surface and orbital could be developed as well.

Two ice bounded glacial lakes at the Poles of Mars could be very useful: https://a-z-animals.com/blog/discover-t … -combined/
Image Quote:

So, I believe that Calliban would understand the value of this. You would be turning both poles into giant radiators, while creating cold seas, which might have a bit of open water here and there.

If all the CO2 were kept evaporated then the pressure might be ~12 mb at the poles or more, and the seas if having salt could be rather cold, and liquid water could likely be sustained, particularly if covered by an ice layer.

The sea water could yield Uranium and Deuterium.

So, then a living planet actually.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-05-15 14:50:06)

Void · 2023-05-15 20:18:45

In the previous post examples of ice age lakes bounded by glaciation ice was indicated. On Mars this should be possible as well. The ice dams will not be the hard part, rather melt water for the lakes and seas are not so much in the habit of present day Mars.

But if you think of them as radiators they will pay their way if you have waste heat to dispose of.

I do not propose to melt the ice caps themselves, at least not at first, just the ice around them. If necessary ice can be removed from the caps to provide water by tunneling into them. We may even consider the ice of Mars to be a sort of fossil fuel, as it was laid down in ancient times to a large degree.

About Venus then to get a sense of proportions, what could you make with all the Carbon of Venus?

~90% gravity but ~90 bars of atmosphere?

Lets just suppose it was 100 bars of material on Earth, and consider that the atmosphere was pure CO2. Then condense it.

Lets just suppose it condenses to a solid. Really, Really rough calculations, 3200 feet of dry ice. (BS Number but maybe not to far off).

Now lets say the Carbon is 1/3 of the mass, so then ~~~1000 feet of Carbon. (~~~304.8 Meters of Carbon).

So then you might build a shell of Carbon around Venus ~(BS)1000 feet or ~(BS)300 Meters of Carbon.

That would be extremely stupid though, so perhaps you would build a ring around the Equator in orbit, of Carbon.

I would hate to waste all that Oxygen, but of course if it is cast out to leave the solar system by way of the solar wind it is not really wasted, it will become part of other worlds or gas clouds later.

But for the human race it would be a waste.

But the point is Venus has a lot to offer as per materials, and the Near Terrestrial Asteroids if figured in could be quite a value in the orbits of Venus.

And I am guessing that even if you removed the entire atmosphere the volcano's might spew out a new one from the hot rocks.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-15 20:30:25)

Void · 2023-05-16 06:31:07

I think that heat shields deserve a topic of their own, but I have some stuff here that will relate to some of my recent posts.

I was actually searching about magnetic heatshields, but also found "Pridwen" which is a fantastic new development in my view.

Some redundancy here:

Pridwen

Space
UK’s Space Forge debuts new reentry tech for in-space manufacturing satellites
Metal Heat Shield? https://techcrunch.com/2023/05/15/uks-s … atellites/
https://techcrunch.com/2023/05/15/uks-s … atellites/
https://aviationweek.com/aerospace/comm … ry-vehicle
https://m.aviationweek.com/aerospace/co … ry-vehicle

https://www.bollyinside.com/news/space/ … spacecraft.
Image Quote: 129729007_shuttlecock2.jpg.webp
Quote:

The Pridwen heat shield is shaped like a shuttlecock to slow the spacecraft’s descent.

Space Forge: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Forge

Pridwen seems to go in a direction I like. Of course using it to facilitate down mass to the Earth is likely to be of great value.

But I also see that you could try to join this technology to that of Vast Space, and make a atmospheric skipper device.

A Stick/Baton, with solar panels and large wings made of the materials of Pridwen. For such a device, folding it up is not desired, as it is not for landing on Earth, Mars, or Venus. I guess actually you could turn your wing/aerobrake structure into a sort of mirror that could be used for solar energy as well.

So, this could possibly be incorporated into a Low Eccentric Orbit <> High Eccentric Orbit transfer vehicle around Earth.

Such a device may work well with the Starship, Terran-R, and other Trans-Atmospheric Spaceships.

So, then you would have a solar mirror and airbrake, coupled with the potential of synthetic gravity.

Such a vehicle might have some chemical propulsion, but it would be very tempting to have electric propulsions as well.

The airbrake/mirror can also perhaps preform the task of a radiator as well, if power is to be from a heat engine. The focus of the mirror might provide the hot side.

This then might power some kind of propulsion method, as well as facilitate life support.

So, as the Moon and other objects in space could supply Oxygen, I guess I might want to suppose that the electric power might allow some method to expel Oxygen as throw mass. Mass drivers come to mind, but I wonder if by microwaving Oxygen you might do it.

Then you probably need some kind of a high temperature ceramic engine bell?

Certainly electric rockets are nice, but I want propulsion from Oxygen as I don't like to waste Hydrogen or Nitrogen, or Zenon, Argon, Ect.

Obviously humans breath Oxygen as well, and I suppose at times you might want a burn engine to burn a fuel with Oxygen.

If such a vehicle were used to transport propellants, it would not necessarily host humans or spin gravity.

I guess that is pretty good.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-05-16 07:14:46)

Void · 2023-05-16 07:39:18

The ideas of the previous post might be supported as well by nuclear fission devices. Not for the aerobraking device itself, but for a tug to send it to a change of orbit.

I would suppose any nuclear might be of a help, but I guess I would be wondering if Oxygen expulsion could be a possible method for this as well. I do understand that hot Oxygen is very corrosive, but I believe that it is handled to some degree in Raptor engines. And I certainly don't know how.

Once again, I guess I would wonder if a Ceramic Engine with hot Oxygen heated by microwaves could be possible.

Nuclear Fission devices of course have to be kept from colliding with Earth, so there need to be restrictions for that.

For a mission to Mars or Venus, a nuclear booster would be quite a convenience. For the trip to Mars, it might give the ship a efficient and quick boost.

Then it is a question of what approach method you wanted.
-Hohmann transfer would require something like Chemical or Nuclear Thermal. You would then have to use aerobraking at Mars.
-Ballistic Capture, could open up the trip starting time very wide, but then the trip takes a bit longer. Aerobraking is then not required.
-Electric Propulsion is a slow acceleration but if you boost it first with a Nuclear Thermal method, it may be satisfactory. Aerobraking not required.

Then to return to Earth, a Boost at Mars would be nice, but perhaps not available.

An electric spiral might be possible, but I wonder if you could do an elliptical intercept of Earth?

Then return the humans to Earth with a capsule and allow the main ship to use several atmospheric passes to regain low Earth orbit over a longer period of time.

I am presuming that at Mars you would have a lander, such as Terran-R for size. But landed Starships would have provided a bulk of materials to get things started with.

Using a Nuclear Fission booster, and electric rocket I consider it possible that some kind of return to Earth booster could be hosted in Martian orbit to assist for the return trip. Fully filled with chemical propellants. That would be optional to cut the travel time back to Earth down.

And for some situations, I am guessing that a pass by Venus might be useful.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-16 08:08:55)

Void · 2023-05-16 08:21:47

Space Wood, after all!

Space Wood:
https://phys.org/news/2023-05-space-mag … llite.html

https://phys.org/news/2021-08-space-woo … ntier.html

https://www.popsci.com/article/technolo … -out-wood/

Obviously this could be important on Mars, Venus, and elsewhere.

In the case of Venus, if you could capture atmosphere to orbit, then you might process it with agriculture to in part make wood.

I am guessing that wood treated, might after all be useful in space.

This cold be better than building with Carbon directly.

I am interested in Magnetic Heat Shields coupled to orbital tether methods to capture and lift up materials from an atmosphere, particularly the atmosphere of Venus.

https://www.popsci.com/technology/artic … %20reentry.

I believe that some ionized gasses can be contained in such magnetic fields.

While I am interested in capturing CO2 and Nitrogen by such a method, I am also hoping that the sun facing side of Venus, where the solar wind impacts the upper atmosphere of Venus, is going to be ionized, and may contain valuable Hydrogen from the solar wind.

So, then if you could capture that you would have quite a bit of what plants need to make their tissues.

So, maybe lots of wood around Venus.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-16 08:30:06)

Void · 2023-05-16 08:50:25

OK, then Cellulose in Space! Partially of Oxygen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellulose
Quote:

Cellulose is an organic compound with the formula (C6 H10 O5)
n, a polysaccharide consisting of a linear chain of several hundred to many thousands of β(1→4) linked D-glucose units.[3][4] Cellulose is an important structural component of the primary cell wall of green plants, many forms of algae and the oomycetes. Some species of bacteria secrete it to form biofilms.[5] Cellulose is the most abundant organic polymer on Earth.[6] The cellulose content of cotton fiber is 90%, that of wood is 40–50%, and that of dried hemp is approximately 57%.[7][8][9]
Cellulose is mainly used to produce paperboard and paper. Smaller quantities are converted into a wide variety of derivative products such as cellophane and rayon. Conversion of cellulose from energy crops into biofuels such as cellulosic ethanol is under development as a renewable fuel source. Cellulose for industrial use is mainly obtained from wood pulp and cotton.[6]

So, then by weight only 10 protons typical in the Hydrogen part.

So, then plant materials may in fact be a great path to building structures in space. You could always shield them with some kind of inorganic surround structure if they do not do well directly in the space environment.

And for Cellulose you use almost as much Oxygen as Hydrogen.

OK, then is it protective from radiation? I am guessing so.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-16 09:05:01)

Void · 2023-05-16 11:47:33

So, Venus looks good per materials to grow organic structure. But then what are the other worlds where this might be considered?

Mars has some.

Ceres has a lot.

Callisto, Titan, Triton, Pluto. Of course the further you are out the more you need non solar eneargy.

It is said that 75% of asteroids are Carbonaceous: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-type_asteroid
Quote:

C-type (carbonaceous /ˌkɑːrbəˈneɪʃəs/) asteroids are the most common variety, forming around 75% of known asteroids.[1] They are volatile-rich and distinguished by a very low albedo because their composition includes a large amount of carbon, in addition to rocks and minerals. They have an average density of about 1.7 g/cm3.
They lie most often at the outer edge of the asteroid belt, 3.5 au (520 million km; 330 million mi) from the Sun, where 80% of the asteroids are of this type, whereas only 40% of asteroids at 2 au (300 million km; 190 million mi) from the Sun are C-type.[2] The proportion of C-types may actually be greater than this, since C-types are much darker (and hence less detectable) than most other asteroid types, except for D-types and others that lie mostly at the extreme outer edge of the asteroid belt.

Ceres is one.

Hygiea:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_Hygiea
Hygiea is thought to have reaccumulated after being broken apart.
There is apparently a family of asteroids from that event: https://academic.oup.com/mnras/article/ … 79/1024387
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygiea_family

Pallas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_Pallas# … 5%20to%205
Quote:

Pallas is the second asteroid to have been discovered, after 1 Ceres. Like Ceres, it is believed to have a mineral composition similar to carbonaceous chondrite meteorites, though significantly less hydrated than Ceres. It is the third-largest asteroid in the Solar System by both volume and mass, and is a likely remnant protoplanet. It is 79% the mass of 4 Vesta and 22% the mass of Ceres, constituting an estimated 7% of the mass of the asteroid belt. Its volume is equivalent to a sphere 505 to 5

So, choices it seems.

In truth very large mirrors should work well to provide solar energy out that far.

And the gravity wells are much easier to deal with than any of the planets.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-17 07:12:17)

Void · 2023-05-16 12:35:25

So, according to this, the asteroid belt may have surviving icy comets in it: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … e685e&ei=9
Quote:

Astronomers find water and "surprise" discovery on rare comet
Story by Christopher Brito • 52m ago

Sorry, this seems old but good news: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/238P/Read

But it seems that some asteroids may have ice in them, and only behave like comets if recently impacted perhaps.

But we know that many of the large asteroids do have water and Hydrated minerals.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-16 12:40:54)

Void · 2023-05-17 07:17:01

I don't want to steal the honor from the Japanese as per the notion of wood in space. They are working with NASA on it. Still I am excited now about it.

Previously when thinking about a world like Titan, I might have thought of working with ice for structure. Then plastics might come to mind.

But wood, I think we think of it as "Low Tech". But with Carbon, Oxygen, and Hydrogen about, wood and paper products should be very major, particularly in the outer solar system. But to grow wood organically, I guess you would need energy, energy from Fusion seems the option in almost all cases, I would think.

On Titan for example, unless you have Oxygen in a wooden building, how can it burn down? And even then to fight the fire you simply circulate atmosphere though the burning building.

I think Pluto is losing its Nitrogen??? https://gizmodo.com/plutos-atmosphere-i … of%20Pluto.

It has been supposed that a magnetic field might protect the atmosphere of Mars. Perhaps one for Pluto might work easier, as the solar wind is weaker out that far. But I don't know if that will be enough. But presuming Fusion power, interesting things might be possible for Pluto and perhaps some other Dwarf Planets. And then Wood on Pluto

Maybe even enormous enclosures where forests grow??? Sounds inefficient, perhaps to some degree it might be done.

I suppose some forests will be having an atmospheric simulation suitable for humans, but to avoid fire, some might be low in Oxygen, but high in CO2. Then you would have to wear breathing gear to be in such a forest.

Well anyway, imagine fusion on Titan, and huge forests. Imagine synthetic gravity worlds where their purpose is to grow wood.

Such might be able to use the materials of Callisto, I am thinking.

An unexpected notion.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-17 07:31:22)

Void · 2023-05-17 07:54:10

I will do an appropriation from another topic so that I can expand with it here:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 39#p209839
Quote:

That seems sensible.
I would mention https://www.vastspace.com/
They may support various money centered activities.
Microgravity manufacturing for instance: https://www.factoriesinspace.com/
Quote:
In-space manufacturing could be enabler and first customer for numerous asteroid mining, commercial space station and utility companies in space. If asteroid mining will be a $1 trillion business then in-space manufacturing will be a $10 trillion business thanks to all the materials made into products with extra value.
Nothing is certain, but rather then SpaceX satisfying and saturating demand the existence of the service may cause an expansion of demand.
We will see, I guess.
Done.

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 46#p209846
Quote:

We think so far in terms of refilling Methane and Oxygen in orbit from Starships. But that would support missions to the Moon and Mars primarily.
Just on a memory my notion is that electric propulsion might be 10 times as efficient as chemical propulsion. Well, it is better in certain ways.
An entire very large expansion of human living space seems likely in LEO and perhaps a bit above LEO. You would not have to do 5 to 6 refills to go to the Moon or Mars to do that. And you would not have to be in a hurry in many cases.
Starship and other ships could do quite a lot without chemical refills. Argon might do a lot.
OK, 10 times as good is probably max, and specs are convoluted as well, apples and oranges and that. https://www.nasa.gov/feature/glenn/2020 … ectrifying
Quote:
This radical system is in-space electric propulsion. It can reduce the amount of fuel, or propellant, needed by up to 90% compared to chemical propulsion systems, saving millions in launch costs while providing greater mission flexibility.
But if one Starship flight could lift 100 to 150 tons, then if half of the cargo were Argon, that would be 50 to 75 tons. That then leaves you with 50 to 75 tons of other cargo. So 50 to 75 tons of Argon is sort of equivalent to several starship propellant runs with Methane and Oxygen in them.
I guess the point is you could stack a lot of stuff inside the Van Allen Belts, above the Earth, and navigate the stuff about rather efficiently.
Thats probably going to be the "Payday" stuff, not the Moon and Mars and asteroids, not yet.
Done

So, supposing Starship lifted Argon, water ice, and dry ice to orbit as a general habit. In general, these substances are better behaved than Liquid Methane and Liquid Oxygen, Liquid Hydrogen.

I anticipate that Argon propelled robotic ships which could also use aerobraking, may move the ices and perhaps some Argon, from Low Elliptical Orbit to High Elliptical Orbit.

Probably reaching a point well beyond the Van Allen Belts.

Then suppose you had a storage orbit for the Ices and a bit of Argon perhaps, where the low point of the orbit is above the Van Allen Belts.
I guess the idea would be to store the ices in that orbit and to process them into propellants as needed. It seems that is 1,000 to 8,000 miles up, 1,600 to 13,000 km.

Eventually some of the propellant materials may come from sources not of the Earth, I guess.

So, I guess I will not go further as revisions may apply already to what I have said, but the point is using Argon it may be possible to "Lever Propellants Up" in the Earth's gravity well, efficiently making them more valuable.

So, that is an alternate way to project a possible future unfolding.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-17 08:16:55)

Void · 2023-05-18 05:51:11

Well, this is interesting:

"Unveiling The "Secret" of How Tesla's Optimus Humanoid Robot Will Colonize Mars! , Nanalyze Docs"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qO0LP6iHRk

I do not feel vastly comfortable with many assertions in the video, but appreciate that they have struggled to find a pathway. I would like to discuss it more, and expand the discussion as well.

The whole notion of NASA measuring itself to the Moon and SpaceX and a few others considering measuring themselves to Mars, makes me uncomfortable, but this is not unlike going to the gym. It is not all pleasure, but can be worthwhile over time. Sitting on the couch and eating snacks, with improper sensory and internal mental processes leads to maladaptation. A gym simulates some parts of reality and so may orient you to be more suited to a more sustainable coexistence with reality.

I do not object to the measuring of Starship to the reach of Mars. It seems a good choice. I also think it will be great to discover how to utilize Optimus on Mars.

But from here to Mars are several environments it seems. At least this is my current map of these things in my mind.

LEO above atmosphere drag up to the Van Allen Belts lower limits is one. (Of course, the Earths environments within atmosphere are the first one).

The Moon is another one. What is between the Moon and the Van Allen Belts, I guess connects to the rest of the solar system.

While it seems like a good aspiration to have better access to Mars, in seeking that it is obvious that LEO and the Moon can be two laboratories in which to try out Optimus and other technologies. The result is likely to favor success in doing it for Mars eventually.

Looking at the notion of Micro-Gravity and Synthetic Gravity space stations in LEO, and the probable lowering of lifting cost for up mass and new methods for down mass, I anticipate the generation of significant wealth in LEO. And Optimus could be there.

As for the Moon, it seems likely that significant water and CO2 can be gotten there. Lava Tubes may provide a moderated environment for Optimus. On the surface of the Moon Optimus may be assisted by traveling dome-machines to moderate the environment inside and to allow effective work to be done on much of the surface.

If Vast Space does simulate Lunar gravity in LEO, and if a few humans are to do research on the Moon, then we can get a measure of how biology reacts to Lunar gravity and simulated Lunar gravity. Optimus, a hive mind will have a lot of autonomy, but will be able to communicate Earth<>Moon sufficiently ~real time.

I think that like automation, mostly stationary, Optimus more mobile could be considered to be a labor amplifier, and should make it more likely that standards of living "Good Enough" can be made to exist in many places "Off Earth".

I am rather satisfied to perceive that this may turn out to be true.

Really our main issue to also solve is the current self-destructive patterns in human societies at this time. If we cannot treat the problems well enough, I guess we will have to try to stop the self-destructive social tissues from damaging the good tissues, the hopeful chances.

Done.

I haven't watched this yet, it may have more information. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUk2E-wxWoA

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-18 06:26:11)

Void · 2023-05-18 07:22:51

Following up on the just previous post, the first linked video cites the possibility of sending 1,300 disassembled Optimus robots to Mars in one Starship.

For that I might offer that a question exists on how many could be sent to the Moon with one Starship?

Optimus will not be the only type of robot/automation that could be sent.

For both the Moon and Mars, "Floor Space" for work, may not have to be as plush as for humans.

Both worlds might host such in Lava Tubes. On both worlds it might be possible to build mobile domes and "Sheds" that would buffer the environment sufficiently for Optimus.

While I think the first settlements on Mars should likely be near the Equator as possible, I see the vast possibility of expansion to the Martian Ice Caps. I see seas around the ice caps, probably covered seas as radiators for nuclear power plants. But I do not exclude the use of solar.

As for maintaining and expanding the water of the seas, I anticipate tunneling into the ice caps for makeup water. This could boring machines, or by melting or by evaporation. Such a network of tunnels might be made quite suitable for some version of Optimus, as they could be heated to a degree without melting. While interiors might be outfitted with metal, ceramic, and plastic structure, we might want to start thinking about wood and/or synthetic wood, probably bio produced.

Inside the tunnel network it should be quite possible to have pressurized space for humans and that could be sufficiently heated as well. Measures to not melt ice with the dwelling space heat could be achievable, I think.

So, I anticipate lots of modified environmental space in the ice caps or elsewhere in permafrost, which could be powered electrically by nuclear and to some extent solar power.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-18 07:34:01)

Void · 2023-05-18 12:16:45

Well this says it again in a slightly different way.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … 8f5c9&ei=2
Quote:

Mars Researchers Just Discovered A Huge Revelation About The Red Planet
Story by Chris Snellgrove • 2h ago

In a recent study, researchers found that the main heat source for the red planet is "the decay of radioactive elements such as thorium, uranium, and potassium." The Martian crust is positively filled with these radioactive elements, and the research team posits that some of these elements are still breaking down underneath the crust where we simply cannot see them.

So a recently viewed an article that indicated that the USA could be powered for 150 years using its stored nuclear waste, and that that process renders the waste considerably less of a problem relative to what it is now.

It has to do with historical politics, I guess.

I am wondering if for Mars you could execute a "China Syndrome" to get rid of the worst of the waste. Add a bunch of Iron to the mix to encourage a melt to sink.

As for the less hostile nuclear waste, if you put it in an ice-covered pond and it generated tritium and that decayed to Helium 3, would that be a resource?

I am also wondering about making launch pads with microwaves.

https://phys.org/news/2022-12-methods-l … aving.html
Quote:

The team has found that a method that uses microwaves to melt lunar soil, coupled with UCF-developed beneficiation, or sorting, technology, may be the best option.

So, does this mean you could build rocks? Stones for an arch?

Alien Tech

Stone arch methods may be good for building on Mars as well. Inside of ice in some cases perhaps.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-05-18 12:31:49)

Void · 2023-05-18 18:51:28

well, if there is so much Potassium, Thorium, and Uranium in the Martian crust, perhaps hot spots do exist. That could possibly explain liquid under the ice at the south polar region, and maybe it will matter for geothermal potentials as well.

Stealing from another member again: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 69#p209869

Quote:

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 6,022
Email
Martian crust like heavy armour
https://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Mart … r_999.html
Combining their newly obtained results with existing data on the gravity and topography of Mars, the researchers were able to determine the thickness of the Martian crust. It averages 42 to 56 kilometres (26 - 35 miles). On average, the crust is thinnest at the Isidis impact basin at ~10 km (6 miles), and thickest at Tharsis province at ~90 km (56 miles). To put this into perspective, seismic data indicates that the Earth's crust has an average thickness of 21 to 27 kilometres (13 - 17 miles), while the lunar crust, as determined by the Apollo mission seismometers is between 34 and 43 kilometre (21 - 27 miles) thick.
"This means that the Martian crust is much thicker than that of the Earth or the Moon," says Kim. Generally, smaller planetary bodies in our solar system have a thicker crust than the larger bodies. Kim explains, "We were fortunate to observe this quake. On Earth, we would have difficulty determining the thickness of the Earth's crust using the same magnitude of quake that occurred on Mars. While Mars is smaller than the Earth, it transports seismic energy more efficiently."
One of the most important results of this research concerns the difference between the northern and southern hemispheres of Mars. This contrast has been observed for as long as there have been telescopes; it is particularly visible in images from Mars satellites. The northern hemisphere on Mars consists of flat lowlands, while there are high plateaus in the south. The division between northern lowlands and southern highlands is called a Martian dichotomy.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-05-18 19:04:11)

Void · 2023-05-18 19:07:39

In recent posts Tesla Bot has been mentioned.

It has said that one Starship could deliver 1,300 Tesla Bots to Mars (In pieces).

I would want to see some delivered to the Moon.

Mars_B4_Moon who I take materials from occasionally, would seem to be of that variety. Do Mars, skip the Moon. At least it seems that way to me.

I agree to the point that we may choose to do Mars without waiting for the Moon. But I feel the Moon might chip in on time to be of help.

Blue Origin has a method to make solar panels from Lunar Regolith.
This will create Oxygen as a byproduct, most of which Tesla Bot will not need.

Relativity Space has a 3D print method that can make big machines.

There may be recoverable Argon on the Moon.

To me, this means that you could have an enormous amount of robotics including Tesla Bot on the Moon manufacturing hardware which could be sent to Mars, to help accelerate the establishment of a viable branch of the human family on Mars.

Argon in a minable state is not certain. I guess it might be ice in the dark cold craters, or drill for it in Lunar cracks, or maybe even condense it out of the exosphere with a cold capacitor to capture (+) ions?

Of course, Argon may be of interest for Electric Rocket transportation. This is a video about their big 3D printer methods: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Re … &FORM=VIRE

Blue Origin Lunar Solar Panel Make Method: https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/343 … %20process. Quote:

Blue Origin Develops System to Deploy 'Unlimited' Solar Power on the Moon
The company claims its technology can cheaply and safely produce solar panels using only lunar regolith, bringing unlimited electricity to the moon.
By Ryan Whitwam February 13, 2023

Now lets bring in Rocket Lab's Carbon Make Method: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_Lab_Electron
Quote:

Manufacturing the carbon composite components of the main flight structure has traditionally required 400 hours, with extensive hand labor in the process. In late 2019, Rocket Lab brought a new robotic manufacturing capability online to produce all composite parts for an Electron in just 12 hours.

Now a Carbon Lunar Lander seems a good notion to me. It will not ever aerobrake. It will be relatively light.
But you could also use a Terran-R at times, and some Variant of Starship on occasions where it might matter.

Starships would be of a Lunar Variety but could also be more of a standard Starship with atmospheric entry abilities.
It could be a 1.0 version or even perhaps a 2.0 version.

With 3D printing on the Moon, it may be possible to build very heavy machinery on the Moon, for Mars, maybe even Boring Company Machines. So, for that you might land a 2.0 Starship to get it. If might fill with machinery for Mars, and fill on Oxygen. That leaves it needing fuel. There are various ways to handle that. On it's way down it could dump Carbon overboard, and water from the Moon would be used to manufacture Methane on the Moon. It could also carry all the Methane with it that it would need to get to another refueling location/method in orbit(s).

But it may be that a lighter Carbon made Relativity Space transport would lift propellants to orbit from the Moon, including LOX.

Another method would be to get Carbon, perhaps from an asteroid, or bring it back from Mars.

Anyway, the main feature of this is with Optimus, a massive labor pool with much lower needs than humans could be utilized on the Moon with only a little time latency with Earth.

Maybe someone(s) can improve on the above???

That would be nice.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-18 19:59:42)

Void · 2023-05-18 20:19:20

As referenced in the previous post: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=El … &FORM=VIRE

Starship 2.0.

I am a bit leery about where this could launch from on Earth.

I am tempted to say, maybe it could launch to orbit empty once, with only enough propellants to make LEO.

Thereafter it would only physically communicate with Earth-LEO, the Moon, Mars, and perhaps Venus/asteroids?

Anyway, that might be another way.

I do not own any rockets though, so I guess Musk and company can do as they like without me. Not that I object at all though.

I would hope it could airbrake to LEO, from the Moon and Mars.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-18 20:22:05)

Void · 2023-05-19 08:02:13

Well if a lot of labor could be supplied by robotics on the Moon, and a lot of hardware could be manufactured, and so then a lot of waste Oxygen might be produced, a use for it is of course to be desired.

I think that from time to time minds of magnitude have addressed that notion. I found something from 1991. That is not surprising. I think that over the course of time many attempts have been made and by now a lot of forgetfulness induced by time passage, creates a sort of senility for the situation. So, it might not hurt to have a look again at times.

The materials I have extracted this morning:

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio … Propulsion
Query: "Production and Use of Metals and Oxygen for Lunar Propulsion"
General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Productio … 608ca0654b
Oxygen Monopropellant (Surprisingly): https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstrea … sequence=1

The materials have sort of suggested to me that indeed it may be possible to extract a propulsion gain from Lunar Oxygen, even down to LEO.

Mass drivers are an alternative, where you might spew Lunar regolith to a "L" location and then manufacture things that way. But I think that Tesla Bot and other robots in many cases will be able to be of more use if they are in a real or simulated gravitational field. And the Moon has a gravitational field, and the regolith is immediately at hand on the surface of the Moon. Also, energy from the sun and possibly nuclear are available.

Elon Musk has suggested that there could eventually be 10 billion Tesla Bots on the Earth. Just a number. What if you also put 10 billion Tesla Bots on the Moon? Making hardware and generating an excess of Oxygen in the process? It seems like in part a desire might exist to put that Oxygen to use. Atmosphere springs to mind, but I am currently interested in the Moon use to support in space manufacturing, and an expansion to Mars and other places.

Take Venus. If we converted the atmosphere of Venus to as much Celulose as possible, then we would have left over some of the Oxygen and the Nitrogen. We could fill space habitats with a lot of it, but might want to use the Oxygen as a propellant without consuming a fluid propellant like a Hydrocarbon.

Something(s) to "Spew" Oxygen.

Mass Drivers are a possible option. It seems that electric rocket might do it but not that well.

Getting materials off of the Moon with just an Oxygen monopropellant seems "Not in reach" for now.

But without an atmosphere, very low orbits a possible and also tethers, and again, Mass Drivers.

It is true that there is some water on the Moon, but that needs conserving, I feel. Not at first, but over time some other method is wanted.

Dropping Carbon on the Moon, might help. It is kind of insane. I have come to realize that terminal velocity of the Moon does have it's limiter, even without atmosphere. Acceleration through time limits the terminal velocity. The more the Carbon accelerates, the faster it reaches the Moons surface, and the less time it has to accelerate more.

So, a ship coming down might release Carbon at some tolerable altitude, and it might survive, if not vaporized and bounced far away. It might be retrievable. But then you have to get the Carbon from somewhere, to that drop point.

So, not solved, maybe problems better defined.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-19 08:32:11)

Void · 2023-05-20 19:22:44

I have been thinking about a version of Starship which might be suited to taping into an Oxygen resource produced from raw materials of the Moon.

I want to reject futuristic things like tethers and mass drivers for now and try to focus on moving existing types of plans towards this goal. Oxygen would not be the only thing to come from the Moon. It might be hardware as well, to Earth orbits, maybe Mars, and other places.

I particular I want to give wings and legs to Lunar Starship, that can be hooked to it for a purpose and then unhooked, as well, I want to seek after "Other" heat shielding methods than is projected for Atmospheric Starship.

I am amused for the wings to start with I might want to call them Squirrel wings or Angel Wings, but I think I actually want to call them Klingon Wings, as part of their task is to "Cling" to the Earth's atmosphere during a skim, resisting skipping by using the wings to cut downward into the thin upper atmosphere.

These wings might be much larger than standard starship flaps and be made of a special high temperature alloy the Brits seem to have. Their purpose would be to assist in an aerocapture to LEO or maybe higher as an elliptical orbit. Dives into the atmosphere would have a prolonged dwell at an altitude where the apparatus would heat to slow down speed, but not heat so high as to destruct the apparatus.

Here is a post including mention of materials suitable for the flaps, (Perhaps): http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 11#p209811
Quote:

Image Quote:

Using something like the Lunar Gateway, a Starship from the Moon could have Klingon Wings clipped onto it and by some means be propelled to intercept the Earth's atmosphere.

The Starship, carrying a load of LOX, would do a aerocapture to an Earth orbit and deliver its cargo of LOX to needs in those orbits. Additional cargo delivered could be Hardware from the Moon, manufactured on the Moon.

"Pridwen" Flaps could reduce the heating of the Starship, but I also want to avoid the need for ceramic tiles for the Lunar Starship. It is possible it might have a covering of some ceramic cloth, but the flaps and the cloth would not be the only way to handle the heat.

For the moment I will focus on the LOX, and not yet a small amount of Methane, and I will bypass how to handle non-propellant tank portions of such a ship, (If any).

Stokes Space is a bit related to what I will suggest: https://www.stokespace.com/

Focusing on the Oxygen tank for now, it is sensible to argue that if it is filled with LOX, that LOX can be super chilled. That would be a possible choice. And you could even have Oxygen slush in it on the return trip from the Moon, as my intention is to use "RCS" engines???

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starship_HLS
Quote:

They are also used as its primary propulsion system in all other flight phases. Within 100 meters of the lunar surface, the variant will utilize high‑thrust RCS thrusters located mid‑body to avoid plume impingement problems with the lunar regolith. The thrusters burn gaseous oxygen and methane instead of the liquid oxygen and methane used by the Raptors.[3][4]: 50:30 However, these thrusters may not be needed.[5]

So basically you have an Oxygen tank which is under Earth gravity and also atmospheric braking forces, so convection will be active as the tank of the rocket has a somewhat horizontal poise. The gas phase Oxygen which may appear on the bottom of the inside of the tank will float "Upwards", to the top of the tank, where it could be collected for the RCS engines to use. Fresh cold LOX would take its place on the inside of the bottom of the tank.

So, the intent is to be able to use the RCS engines along with the "Klingon Wings" to maneuver in the upper atmosphere. They may also be used outside the atmosphere after the ship does skip upwards in its new ellipse.

A different method might be used for the Methane Tank. Methane from a header tank could be squirted onto hot surfaces in that Methane Tank, to produce Vapors of Fuel for the RCS engines.

So in part a steam rocket but you can then burn the steam to produce more thrust.

Methods to keep cool other parts of the rocket might involve heating the Oxygen boil-off prior to it going to the RCS thrusters.

I would tend to vouch for not having a cargo compartment or crew compartment, rather attach any such to the "Klingon Wings".

Once the ship had disgorged its cargo, it would be filled with Methan, but have retained sufficient Oxygen to proceed back to the Lunar Gateway.

It might also be given One-Use landing legs to land on the Moon.

The ship may actually have 3 main tanks, one dedicated to Liquid Methane, one dedicated to LOX, and one that can do either, but not at the same time of course. That would be a "Cargo Tank". Very good purging would be needed before switching liquid types.

At the Gateway, the "Klingon Wings" come off and the cargo and crew compartments if any are in an otherwise method attached to the rocket.

Upon landing on the Moon, enough Methane needs to be retained in the ship to take off again. New LOX needed and Cargo Lox would be filled, and any other cargo added.

Upon takeoff, the landing legs would be left behind on the surface. At first they could be made of Plastics, but later might include Carbon components, and other desired substances.

Please let me know what you think.

Later on, it may be possible that such a ship may use Nuclear. Electric, or Oxygen Mass driver methods for some of the inertia changes needed.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-20 20:15:08)

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#1026 2023-05-14 10:57:59

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1027 2023-05-14 12:30:37

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1028 2023-05-14 13:30:38

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1029 2023-05-14 21:20:15

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1030 2023-05-15 12:55:39

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1031 2023-05-15 13:50:18

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1032 2023-05-15 14:28:27

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1033 2023-05-15 14:31:25

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1034 2023-05-15 20:18:45

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1035 2023-05-16 06:31:07

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1036 2023-05-16 07:39:18

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1037 2023-05-16 08:21:47

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1038 2023-05-16 08:50:25

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1039 2023-05-16 11:47:33

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1040 2023-05-16 12:35:25

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1041 2023-05-17 07:17:01

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1042 2023-05-17 07:54:10

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1043 2023-05-18 05:51:11

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1044 2023-05-18 07:22:51

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1045 2023-05-18 12:16:45

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1046 2023-05-18 18:51:28

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1047 2023-05-18 19:07:39

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1048 2023-05-18 20:19:20

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1049 2023-05-19 08:02:13

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#1050 2023-05-20 19:22:44

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Board footer