Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Calliban · 2023-05-04 17:53:05

I have sometimes wondered about cyclers with a perogee slightly greater than Earth orbit and an apogee beyond the orbit of Neptune. A patient civilisation could use it to colonise the whole Kuiper belt. But patience would be key. One cyc.er orbit would take about 60 years

Void · 2023-05-04 21:35:31

Well, if the solar sails recently mentioned in this topic are able to sail into the sunlight as is stated, then laser beams from the inner solar system could not only push such ships but they could sail inward on the laser beam, I think.

I am not sure how that works, but I suggests to me that interstellar missions might be able to slow down using the laser beam coming from Earth.

More practical though, if that is true, then Lasers could guide giant platforms to dwarf planets in our solar system.

I think this may be true.

As for age, you can look into Dr. David Sinclair. His group believe they can reverse aging. I believe they do it in mice now. So very long journeys may not necessarily have people ready for the nursing home at their end.

Time will tell for all of it I guess.

Done.

Calliban · 2023-05-05 03:02:08

There are a lot of problems with the idea of an Earth - Kuiper belt cycler. The long orbital period is but one. The solar flux would vary enormously across its orbit, making solar power problematic. The cycler would cross the orbits of all of the giant planets, making its orbit vulnerable to gravitational interactions. It would have to have propulsion to correct for gravitational disturbances. Perhaps most seriously of all, matching velocity with the cycler close to Earth orbit would be difficult as it would pass the Earth at a relative speed of about 60km/s. That is a very high delta-V. Difficult to achieve without nuclear pulse propulsion. But assuming we achieve such technology in the future, long duration cyclers allow us to meet the extreme duration life support functions of a trip to the Kuiper Belt.

Void · 2023-05-05 08:18:16

Quote:

Calliban
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There are a lot of problems with the idea of an Earth - Kuiper belt cycler. The long orbital period is but one. The solar flux would vary enormously across its orbit, making solar power problematic. The cycler would cross the orbits of all of the giant planets, making its orbit vulnerable to gravitational interactions. It would have to have propulsion to correct for gravitational disturbances. Perhaps most seriously of all, matching velocity with the cycler close to Earth orbit would be difficult as it would pass the Earth at a relative speed of about 60km/s. That is a very high delta-V. Difficult to achieve without nuclear pulse propulsion. But assuming we achieve such technology in the future, long duration cyclers allow us to meet the extreme duration life support functions of a trip to the Kuiper Belt.

Well, for now it is definitely not "Low Hanging Fruit". But "Never say Never!".

The solar sailing technology does apparently make Mercury and Venus accessible, or at least improves accessibility.

For the sake of accessing raw materials, I anticipate that it could go out to the Jupiter Trojans, but there are lots of asteroids much more inward than that with a distribution of what is desired.

I think it might even facilitate the movement of materials to Mars to assist in terraforming. That seems like it will always take a long time even so, But the four inner planets could all host or connect to a vast population of orbital habitat/structure.

What I am not sure about is Ceres. Will it be big enough to do a Ballistic Capture to. That is not essential but it would be helpful.

If Ceres were the outermost major interest, and Mercury the innermost, then we have a inner solar system zone that allows for powered cyclers. So, they would be able to continuously correct for mismatches to the orbits of the major objects.

Orbital periods in Earth years: Ceres=4.6, Mars=1.88, Earth=1.0, Venus=0.6152, Mercury=0.2408.

Something popped out at me, listing above. Does the Earth/Moon<>Mercury have a ratio of ~1 to 4?

Mars<>Venus seems to be ~1 to 3.

So, then this apparent ~1 to 4 orbital relationship between Earth/Moon and Mercury, suggests that you could have a cycler with the ability to park into Earth/Mars by Ballistic Capture on occasion. At the inward pass of Mercury, we might be horrified at the differential speed between a cycler/semi-cycler, but at that distance from the sun we have a great deal of inertia offered by concentrated sunlight.

Mercury is said to have vast ice sheets on it's poles and Carbon all over it's surface, and of course lots of Metals expected but enough Oxygen.

Mercury should be better for Mass Drivers than Mars, as no dust storms, no Atmosphere of consequence. So a Mass donator perhaps. Of course, landing craft will not have the ability to brake to an atmosphere, but the high solar flux should allow a reasonable way to merge between the planet and sun orbiting craft such as a cycler.

Ceres 4.6>2.3>1.15>.575>.2875. Just doing some guessing stuff.

So 4.6 to 1.15, Ceres<>Earth, does not match well, but with solar powered orbital correction, perhaps it can be OK. But a better plan may be to do 4 to 1, which puts several space stations in the asteroid belt that would align with the orbital period of Earth.

Anyway something to think about.

I think the book "Princess of Mars" inspired the movie "John Carter", which is amusing. The movie bombed, but I think I should not have.

To enjoy the Movie you have to understand that the elements of the movie that seem silly are because of how old the story was. You just have to turn down your logic just a bit more.

Anyway what interests me is that they had aircraft that could sail on light on Mars. Of course that is silly (For now ).

But now we do have sail craft that can sail on light. Very nice.

I remember reading as a boy, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Princess_of_Mars

The Unit "Carob" sticks out in my mind from it. "Karob"? Doesn't matter, not sure at all I have it right.

John Carter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Carter_(film)

I was OK with it, perhaps because I had encountered the story in a very old book long before: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?&q=J … ajaxhist=0

Anyway sailing ships on light really does sound like something awesome.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-05-05 09:13:48)

Void · 2023-05-05 09:28:47

Continuing from the previous post.............

One thing to note is that with robotic light sails you could drag materials desired from the asteroid belt inward to where those materials may be wanted. Time would not be that much of a problem. 10 years? Well, that could be OK.

This is also of interest, the L3 points of planets: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrange_point
Image Quote:

That is of course on the other side of the sun from the planet it relates to.

So, a cycler with a 1/2 Earth year time period would half the time align with the L3 on it's high pass.

I think L3 is unstable, but sunlight could stabilize such a cycler.

You could not do a Ballistic Capture at the Earth L3, (Not the Lunar L3), but still such a station may be of interest.

Of course the Earth/Moon would be the opposite side station. And a .5 Earth year orbit may be convenient to connect to Mercury and Venus, as the solar flux from the low point of .5 to that of .25 is strong.

I suppose I will yield to words.

The worlds that make word smiths seem wiser and more powerful: https://www.space.com/what-is-perihelion (Low Point).

Perigee low, Apogee high. Guess I need to capture the magic words.

Anyway, the point is they seem to claim that they can maneuver craft inward into the sunlight better than was before considered practical.

That seems to me to be a big thing.

I would like to know more about the technology.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-05 09:45:12)

Calliban · 2023-05-05 10:38:55

Ballistic capture could work well on Ceres. If equipment is put on a minimum energy trajectory from Earth, it would hit Ceres with a velocity of 500m/s - which is Ceres escape velocity. That is only slightly faster than a pistol bullet. We could certainly build a system to catch cargo at this speed. But the gravity of Ceres is so weak that a space elevator would be easy to build. We could extend the tether a long way out into space. If timed correctly, the cargo could intercept the tether tip at a relative speed of several tens m/s. It is easy (propulsively) to deal with dV that small. Cold gas thrusters are sufficient.

Void · 2023-05-05 11:52:52

That is very good information to have.

Just for an amusing visualization, Ceres could have an arrival every 365 Earth days. That of course requires 365 cyclers.

If each cycler did a 3 to 1 relationship to Ceres (Ceres as 1), the orbital period of a cycler would be 1.53, so I suppose the low point would be between Mars and Earth. Each cycler would have it high point in 3 locations in the asteroid belt, 120 degrees apart? So perhaps not a bad way to access the asteroid belt as a whole.

Light sailing between the orbits of Earth and Mars may not be too feeble, if it were desired to do a connection to the low point of a cycler.

Stations in the Asteroid Belt, and cyclers dipping down out of the asteroid belt could spread the human race out over a lot of time latency, which I consider important.

Alpha ordered cultures are annoying as they tend to favor the stick over deal making. In a power distributed situation deal making favors representative government.

I feel that Alpha male breeding to large numbers of Hypergamous females breeds a weak brained population. Specialization, insect people.

The lucky break that colonialism gave was to distribute power over a larger area, which has enabled enough autonomy/individuality in the populations, to favor better minds rather than specialized ruler minds. Yes there was a lot not good about colonialism, but accidentally, it spread power across the planet, which was good for the whole population, or may turn out to have been good in the end.

So, time latency is a resource, which may groom a better human race, not egotistical hooting monkey power centers.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-05-05 12:07:03)

Void · 2023-05-05 20:52:57

In the last post I tossed out a number 365 for number of cyclers associated with Ceres. they might come closer to the sun, to between the orbits of Earth and Mars on their inward end, and near Ceres at their upper end. So, one would not show up every day at Ceres, perhaps every 4.6 Earth days. But it was an arbitrary selection of number. I imagine if you traced all the orbits on a graph, then it would look like it came out of a Spirograph.

It would be possible to link both the low end and high ends of the elliptical orbits with cyclers that circle the sun at those locations, and so the circular cyclers would link the ends of the 365 elliptical cyclers. Of course you don't get a free ride between an elliptical and a circular, but I am sure schemes can be schemed for that.

So, you would have a ring in the asteroid belt and a ring between Earth and Mars,

In reality most raw materials though would be carried by robots that can transition over time from ring to elliptical. Humans might use something more reactive in short time periods such as Nuclear or Chemical to transfer Ring<>Elliptical<>Ring.

I like it, but it does not include Venus and Mercury (Yet!).

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-05 20:58:48)

tahanson43206 · 2023-05-05 21:34:38

For Void re #1008

Your vision of a cycler visiting Ceres at the rate of one every Earth day is quite remarkable, except that such an expansive vision is routine in your topics!

I understand you have in mind a different cycler passing by each Earth day, for a total of 365 cyclers.

Have you ever seen pictures of the Starlink satellites as they cross the sky after a launch? The images I've seen show a series of dots moving across the skyscape one after the other. Your vision of all those cyclers seems similar.

One refinement you could make to your vision, if you have the time to investigate, is how long a cycle would be for one of these cyclers.

I don't know the answer, but would imagine the time would be measured in years.

That being the case, if you wanted to have a cycler pass Ceres every Earth day, they would need to be launched in sufficient numbers.

365 cyclers would take multiple years to reach Ceries, but when they arrived, they would show up one per Earth day for a total of 365 Earth days, and then they would not show up again for as many years as their orbits consume.

If you need help planning an orbit to Ceries, Dr. Johnson's course is available for free, from the "Class" topic here in the forum.

The course is written for students at the high school level, so hopefully you would find it well within your comfort zone.

(th)

Void · 2023-05-05 22:04:59

Nice of you to stop by.

Really though 365 was just a arbitrary number, as the Earth has 365 days. So one would pass Ceres every 4.6 days I think.

Now, I stand ready to be corrected, but I think that a 3/1 relationship is possible, so that a cycler would have an orbital period of ~1.53 years, which does not exactly match the Earth's 1 year, but remember these platforms would we under continuous power with solar wings/sails, so corrections to orbit should be easy.

1.53 times 3 then matches 4.6 year a year for Ceres. So the platforms would peak out at somewhere in the asteroid belt 3 time for one orbit of Ceres, so 2 out of 3 times Ceres will not be there. But it is in the asteroid belt, so there will be asteroids to access.

As for the inward peak of the elliptical orbit, it would not pass near Earth, but between Earth and Mars.

So, these terms are more proper: Perigee low, Apogee high.

What is different about the cyclers I mention here is that they anchor to only one world, Ceres in this case. They are not to pass another world, unless that is yet another platform, this time in a circular orbit.

Keep in mind that I don't need precision for just doing some guess work, roughing it in more or less. Ceres has a fairly defined orbit, and that is to be associated with the Apogee of an elliptical cyclers orbit, and the Perigee is somewhere between Earth and Mars, so we use what can occur if the Apogee is near Ceres, and the time period or orbit is 1.53 years.

Dr. Johnons lessons would be wonderful, but they are for greater precision. Getting too far down in the weeds has great value, but may at this time cause a loss of overview and flexibility and frankly the power of BS perhaps. BS in agriculture is fertilizer.

I only offered the Cyclers for Ceres as a trial balloon, and there could be many more configurations to consider. If it is wrong to the point of not being in any practical sense worth time, then I guess it fails a test and then another pattern could be tried.

With a cycler resonance may be important. It occurs naturally in nature sometimes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilda_asteroid

But in the cases I am attempting for we would not rely on natural resonance to keep the platforms in their dance positions, we would likely use Photons from the sun to keep each platform in the proper dance steps. And by that means to stimulation a continuing resonance.

But If someone needs to correct me, then by all means.

I am only starting perhaps my starship will tumble as well.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-05 22:18:03)

Void · 2023-05-05 22:47:21

Let me try again, and hope to be better about it. What Dr. Johnson is capable of is extremely hard, almost impossible, certainly for me.

What I am after is relatively easy.

I want to cut the task up into pieces. But even achieving that, if it can be achieved, at some point Dr. Johnsons magic has to be employed to transfer humans and Materials in various ways. But my hope is to have reduced the rigor of the passage by Dr. Johnson's means to make it a little easeir.

I am presuming platforms something like this: https://www.sciencealert.com/could-huma … anet-ceres
Image Quote:
In the depicted Mega-Satellite, each dot on the central plain, is to be an O'Neill Cylinder.

Some platforms would not have to be that extensive and elaborate, but the notions is that a platform in general will have continual life support on board, and a platform will sail on the inertia of the photons coming out of the sun. But as they are cyclers, they can recycle the energy of their orbits. The phase and other orbital factors could be continuously modified by the photon propulsion, in small measures at a time.

If we could do a 4/1, and I am not sure it is possible, that would be 4.6/4 = 1.15??? Well perhaps that would cross the Earth's orbit. I am not sure. Maybe 3/1 is not good either. You definitely don't want Mega-Structures slamming into Earth. There are ways, such as Pluto/Neptune.

https://thatsmaths.com/2018/12/13/the-3 … and-pluto/

I believe that Pluto crosses Neptunes orbit but is in a somewhat different inclination? So, then they don't bump.

A quote from my post #1004:

Orbital periods in Earth years: Ceres=4.6, Mars=1.88, Earth=1.0, Venus=0.6152, Mercury=0.2408.
Something popped out at me, listing above. Does the Earth/Moon<>Mercury have a ratio of ~1 to 4?
Mars<>Venus seems to be ~1 to 3.
So, then this apparent ~1 to 4 orbital relationship between Earth/Moon and Mercury, suggests that you could have a cycler with the ability to park into Earth/Mars by Ballistic Capture on occasion. At the inward pass of Mercury, we might be horrified at the differential speed between a cycler/semi-cycler, but at that distance from the sun we have a great deal of inertia offered by concentrated sunlight.

So, there appear to be relationships, but they are sloppy. But if you have a continuous propulsion method such as Photon Sails, then you might be able to correct. I think the sloppy is because if you have two partnered worlds trying to dance, the other worlds may be stepping on their toes a bit gravitationally.

I am rather interested in Mars<>Venus ~1 to 3, I think.

It might be possible to have a powered cycler that joins those two.

And I think it is a real reach but maybe Earth<>Mercury ~1 to 4???

Well, If someone wants to slap me up on this go ahead. I am investigating, I do not particularly know. If I did know then I would be less likely to investigate.

The two pairs are of future interest, but Ceres has a lot of the raw materials that will be wanted, and I have been trying to hook into Ceres somehow for that reason

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-05 23:08:06)

Void · 2023-05-07 15:44:15

I am now considering platforms with multiple propulsion means, it seems like an interesting possibility to me.

For now I will restrict to a platform where the sun is one parent body, and a orbiting world will be the other and only parent body for the cycling platform. For now I will consider Ceres, as it has the materials desired in less intense gravity well.

I feel comfortable that Calliban thinks that it could be possible to do a Ballistic Capture to Ceres as well.

Mars/Phobos/Deimos could also be a parent for a cycle platform, but for now I ponder Ceres.

As for the orbital period of the platform, I tend to think that less is more it is hard to say however how far down into the suns gravity well is ideal? There would be many things to consider, such as how other spacecraft can partner with it, and how it may enhance contact with other platforms and worlds. It may be preferable to not cross the Earth's orbit, either by how low into the suns gravity well the platform goes or also perhaps the plane of the orbit.

The platforms might whizz by Ceres, or apparently could do a Ballistic Capture at times. In anticipate the platforms to be so large that they are self-contained, that is they are self-sufficient per life support, energy, propulsive methods and so on.

These platforms like the Finnish model, could be constructed from the materials of Ceres and then may sail off to at first not be synchronous with the orbit of Ceres, but over time to lock into it if desired, or to lock into another world such as Mars. During the long period to leave Ceres and then reach the intended synchronous orbit people would simply live on that platform, rather well as it would be large.

Such a platform might be able to do the reverse from time to time, to take on materials from Ceres.

The purpose of going into an Elliptical Synchronous Orbit may include better energy potential, access to spacecraft from various locations, and time latency. It is my hope that greater time latency used as a time partition would make it harder for degenerative specializations of the human populations to occur. Specialized humans, even the rulers, probably are less intelligent in the ability to understand reality, and to invent. Specialization can have material benefits but carries a huge cost also. In the age of robots and other new technology, efficiency from humans is less valuable. Having a human type that is very good at bashing in heads with clubs is a less valuable trait then. Having poo shovelers is another example of a specialization.

Will the robots kill off the humans? Don't know. Someone is likely to find out though eventually.

So, I anticipate that these platforms will employ multiple means of propulsion, including two types of solar propulsion, Photon Sail, and Solar Wind.

They are a bit different in results of course. The Photon method is more effective near the sun. The Magnetic Bubble method may work well further away from the sun, (Presuming a similar energy source), as the bubble may tend to expand as the power of the solar wind diminishes.

Just now I have the impression that the Photon Sail will tack into the sunlight better than the Magnetic Bubble can do. (But there are many types of magnetic bubble machines proposed).

The magnetic bubble may act as a braking device while moving in orbit towards the sun, against the solar wind, flow. It might brake against the magnetic fields of worlds where such fields exist. However, that would not apply to huge platforms as I would not think it wase to risk an impact of Earth with a large one. For smaller platforms maybe.

And Magnetic Bubbles can give some radiation shielding, which I don't think Photon Sails can help much with.

I think that the two might work well together, and not interfere with each other much, as long as the magnetism did not warp the photon sails.

One of the benefits of a "Basking Orbit", is that solar power plants can extract more energy as nearer the sun.
But for some propulsive methods you might want nuclear fission power, that might apply the Magnetic Bubbles. But if you have such a power supply then you might as well have propulsive means like Electric Ion, and maybe Mass Driver.

So, then several means to alter the platforms orbit or to maintain it as synchronous to a parent world such as Ceres.

The orbit of the platform is in realty a storage of power by inertia, but impinging gravity wells will nudge the orbit and that needs to be compensated for to maintain/achieve the desired orbit.

While magnetic bubbles can help with hard radiation, for these platforms, it could be very reasonable to use mass from Ceres as well to give very good radiation protection.

Getting the I.S.E. again..............

Think I will stop for now.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-05-07 20:21:11)

Void · 2023-05-07 20:24:23

So, eventually a large set of platforms in various orbits.

While Ceres might be a great place to build platforms around, but really the construction could be in various places in the Asteroid Belt. While these might use Cerea as a parent world, the platforms might be migrated to the other terrestrial planets, Mars, Earth, Venus, even perhaps Mercury. Similar to a Dyson Swarm/Sphere, you could harvest a lot of energy, more that impinges the planets themselves, but also being useful for distribution people and even transferring people.

To transfer people then perhaps nuclear ships? High thrust.

But to supply much of the propellants, materials from the Asteroid belt could be brought to depots by slow ships, that may sail on sunlight.

In a similar way the platforms could be supplied with various other materials, perhaps from the asteroids by slow ship, perhaps with solar sails only.

So, Mars might become a parent planet to host many of these platforms, and to go to Mars, you might jump to one of the platforms associated with it.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-07 20:33:44)

Void · 2023-05-08 12:44:58

So, an elliptical orbit platform, would do at least more than one orbit for every orbit of it's parent world.

So, the orbits might resemble those of Near Earth Asteroids, and over time they may absorb those asteroids as raw materials to expand themselves.

https://nineplanets.org/near-earth-aste … h%20comets.
Image Quote: Neas.svg.png
Quote:

Atiras or Apoheles – have orbits only inside that of Earth’s. Their aphelion distance is smaller than Earth’s perihelion distance, which is 0.9 AU. This implies that these asteroids have a semi-major axis less than 0.9 AU.
Atens – these asteroids have a semi-major axis less than 1 AU, and cross Earth’s orbit.
Apollos – This class is the opposite, having a semi-major axis of more than 1 AU and also cross Earth’s orbit.
Amors – They have orbits strictly outside that of Earth’s. Their perihelion distance is greater than Earth’s aphelion distance ( 1.017 AU), this implies that their semi-major axis is greater than 1.017 AU. Some of these asteroids even cross Mars’s orbit.
Co-orbital Asteroids
Some NEAs have a co-orbital configuration, which makes them have the same orbital period as our Earth. These co-orbital asteroids have unusual orbits that are relatively stable, and at the same time, it prevents them from getting close to Earth. Here are some examples:

So, this would be a safety feature for inhabited planets such as Earth, and we hope eventually Mars.

I think that dominantly the rocks that threaten Earth have less Carbon and Hydrogen but could be utilized. Shifting the orbits to both avoid the Earth collisions possible and connect as children to worlds could be done over time. Ceres, Mars, Earth, Venus and even Mercury might be made to become the parent planets for these. All of these can contribute Volatile materials to these platforms, but of course some such as Ceres and Mars may become better contributors than say Earth, Venus, or Mercury. And Ceres is not the only "Icy" asteroid in the belt, so likely some other worlds would make contributions as well.

It seems that Ballistic capture for an elliptical platform inside of the parent worlds is possible in the case of all the terrestrials, and also Ceres. Perhaps for some other asteroids as well. Gravitational swing-by methods might also occur but caution for Earth is likely merited.

As for Solar propulsions, it is obvious that they will tend to work better on the sunward end of an of an eristical orbit.

A platform could be composed of many sections, so that if a group of people wanted to leave the platform and transfer to the parent world, only one section would likely need to do the Ballistic Capture maneuver.

Another trick which might be used in the case of Mars is impactors composed of trash rock. That is if it is desired to try to dig a hole per one of our new members suggestions, then undesired materials from a large, appropriated asteroid could be used for it. And instead of a solid object impact, perhaps a "Slushy Impact" might be used. Sort of a chain of impacts on the same point hopefully. Apollo's or Amor's look like they might work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_asteroid
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amor_asteroid
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aten_aste … bservatory.

So you can go into those links and hover your mouse over the listed items or click on them. There are various sizes. Many have a aphelion near the mid asteroid belt where needed materials might be extracted from.

A minority of such asteroids may be Carbonaceous. But many of the large stony asteroids may have collected some Hydrogen from the solar wind, over long periods of time. Example: (Itokawa) https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/11 … ar-system/ Quote:

Asteroid-sample return shows water on its rocks’ surface
A cubic meter of asteroid dust may have as much as 20 liters of water.
JOHN TIMMER - 11/30/2021, 4:25 PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/25143_Itokawa
Quote:

Physical characteristics
Schematic of Itokawa's two lobes separated from each other. Their divergent densities suggest that these were stand-alone bodies that came into contact later on, making the rubble pile also a likely contact binary.[22]
Preliminary shape model of Itokawa based on radar observations by Goldstone and Arecibo[23]
Itokawa is a stony S-type asteroid. Radar imaging by Goldstone in 2001 observed an ellipsoid 630±60 meters long and 250±30 meters wide.[23]
The Hayabusa mission confirmed these findings and also suggested that Itokawa may be a contact binary formed by two or more smaller asteroids that have gravitated toward each other and stuck together. The Hayabusa images show a surprising lack of impact craters and a very rough surface studded with boulders, described by the mission team as a rubble pile.[4][24] Furthermore, the density of the asteroid is too low for it to be made from solid rock. This would mean that Itokawa is not a monolith but rather a rubble pile formed from fragments that have cohered over time. Based on Yarkovsky–O'Keefe–Radzievskii–Paddack effect measurements, a small section of Itokawa is estimated to have a density of 2.9 g/cm3, whereas a larger section is estimated to have a density of 1.8 g/cm3.[4][25]

Quote:

Composition
The 26 August 2011 issue of Science devoted six articles to findings based on dust that Hayabusa had collected from Itokawa.[32] Scientists' analysis suggested that Itokawa was probably made up from interior fragments of a larger asteroid that broke apart.[33] Dust collected from the asteroid surface is thought to have been exposed there for about eight million years.[32]
Scientists used varied techniques of chemistry and mineralogy to analyze the dust from Itokawa.[33] Itokawa's composition was found to match the common type of meteorites known as "low-total-iron, low metal ordinary chondrites".[34] Another team of scientists determined that the dark iron color on the surface of Itokawa was the result of abrasion by micrometeoroids and high-speed particles from the Sun which had converted the normally whitish iron oxide coloring.[34]
2018 Hayabusa results
Two separate groups report water in different Itokawa particles. Jin et al. report water in low-calcium pyroxene grains. The water's isotope level corresponds with inner Solar System and carbonaceous chondrite water isotope levels.[35] Daly et al. report "OH and H2O" apparently formed by implantation of solar wind hydrogen. The rims of an olivine particle "show an enrichment of up to ~1.2 at % in OH and H2O".[36] The water concentrations of the Itokawa grains would indicate an estimated BSI (Bulk Silicate Itokawa) water content in line with Earth's bulk water, and that Itokawa had been a "water-rich asteroid".[37]
2020 Hayabusa results
At the 2020 Lunar and Planetary Science Conference, a third group reported water and organics, via a third Hayabusa particle- RA-QD02-0612, or "Amazon." Olivine, pyroxene, and albite contain water. Isotopic compositions indicate a clear extraterrestrial origin.[38]

So, I think that the raw materials to create desired resources are already partly in place to create many cyclers of very large size to house a lot of people.

Image Quotes:
Left:
Right:

Quote:

Left: orbital diagram of Itokawa on December 2006. Right: animated orbits of Itokawa (green) and Earth (blue) around the Sun.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-08 13:41:03)

Void · 2023-05-09 11:04:36

OK, I am going to steal/transplant a post from another member here as a root to posting I will also do here:

Quote:

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 5,881
Email
Momentus tug raises orbit with water-fueled thruster
https://spacenews.com/momentus-tug-rais … -thruster/
So the reason I add this in the 'breakthrough' is it is a Space Tug and sometimes when new mars users have talked with Chatbots they have suggested updating old tech like 'Solar Sails'
A Water rocket could be useful as a train launch on the Moon or sending product from a Base on Asteroids and transporting material to Mars.
A hybrid form of propulsion could also be used.
I think there were threads which discussed using water-fueled thruster but I will post the news here for now.
SpaceNut wrote:
Not a choice when the water is crew required not only for shielding but for all other things....
It also seem to exist in plenty in places like Europa and Comets.
Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (Today 08:12:53)

Void · 2023-05-09 11:05:46

OK, I am going to steal/transplant a post from another member here as a root to posting I will also do here:

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 55#p209555
Quote:

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 5,881
Email
Momentus tug raises orbit with water-fueled thruster
https://spacenews.com/momentus-tug-rais … -thruster/
So the reason I add this in the 'breakthrough' is it is a Space Tug and sometimes when new mars users have talked with Chatbots they have suggested updating old tech like 'Solar Sails'
A Water rocket could be useful as a train launch on the Moon or sending product from a Base on Asteroids and transporting material to Mars.
A hybrid form of propulsion could also be used.
I think there were threads which discussed using water-fueled thruster but I will post the news here for now.
SpaceNut wrote:
Not a choice when the water is crew required not only for shielding but for all other things....
It also seem to exist in plenty in places like Europa and Comets.
Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (Today 08:12:53)

OK, that does raise the questions of additional types of propulsion.

Steam and plasma propulsions: VASIMR falls into the category of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_ … sma_Rocket
Dr. Zubrin points out limitations of the device: https://www.spaceflightinsider.com/conf … s-39-days/ Quote:

Zubrin wrote in SpaceNews: “To achieve his much-repeated claim that VASIMR could enable a 39-day one-way transit to Mars, Chang Diaz posits a nuclear reactor system with a power of 200,000 kilowatts and a power-to-mass ratio of 1,000 watts per kilogram. In fact, the largest space nuclear reactor ever built, the Soviet[-era] Topaz, had a power of 10 kilowatts and a power-to-mass ratio of 10 watts per kilogram. There is thus no basis whatsoever for believing in the feasibility of Chang Diaz’s fantasy power system.”

I think ha has also mentioned that a huge radiator system would be needed also.

But I feel that for Cyclers there could be some utility for VASIMR, and Steam propulsions. And in addition, if the stored materials are H20 and CO2, then also chemical rockets may be associated as well.

Don't be confused to think I want these cyclers prior to a pseudo–Mars Direct or missions to the Moon. This is for later, and even Dr. Zubrin has talked of the Asteroid Belt after Mars.

While water is of interest, it may be in shorter supply than CO2 in many situations.

Of the worlds Ceres, Mars, Mercury, and Venus seem to have large amounts of Carbon and Oxygen available.
Earth of course does as well, but lifting it may be a problem. Venus also has a larger gravity well, but if CO2 could be snatched from the atmosphere to orbit with tethers, it may be pretty good.

If you could snatch CO2 from Venus in that way you could do it from Mars in a similar way I anticipate.

Ceres and Mercury both seem to have a lot of Carbon on their surfaces.

Carbon on Ceres is said to be up to 20% of the surface materials: https://astrobiology.nasa.gov/news/evid … -on-ceres/

Carbon for Mercury: https://theconversation.com/discovery-o … past-55940

So, generally I feel that for cyclers, and particularly for cyclers that only interact with one world, additional mass, which may also shield from radiation is not that much of a penalty.

Water Ice is fine for many things such as storage and protections and propulsion methods, but so is Dry Ice.

Dry ice as a steam propellant. CO & O2 to be a chemical propellant, even heated Carbon dust and O2. Many of these things would just not be very appropriate for standard rocket methods, but on a cycler platform they may be OK.

If you need a sudden surge in energy for a VASIMR at some point, synthetic gravity machines may e considered flywheel energy storage systems as well.

If it seems difficult to think of Mercury and Venus as practical sources of Dry Ice, remember that both types of solar power devices, Photon Sails, and Magnetic Bubble will work well from solar energy sources near the orbits of Mercury and Venus. Venus does not have a significant magnetic field, so solar sailing down to low orbit may well be possible.

And to send such materials to the Earth/Moon may be possible.

And let's remember that Carbon can be a building material. Rocket Labs is said to have an improved build method for Carbon.

https://www.space.com/rocket-lab-rosie- … hours.html

Enough!

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-09 11:46:22)

Void · 2023-05-10 11:01:27

I am becoming increasingly interested in Earth/Moon<>Venus and/or Mercury.

Mercury is supposed to have big sheets of ice on its polar areas: https://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/i … rcury.html
https://earthsky.org/space/mercury-water-ice-poles/

While the idea of access to these worlds has been questioned, especially Mercury, it turns out that the new Photon Sails may make quite a difference. And if so then Mercury has water and also Carbon on it's surface. It does not have dust storms and has very ample solar energy.

Like the Moon the polar areas of the planet will allow a path not locked to the long day/nigh period.

So, anyway Mercury could refill Starships.

88 year day. Earth is 365. So then Mercury orbits about 4.147 times for every Earth year. I wonder if solar propulsions could work with that for a set of cyclers? Also, while the pass of Earth would be a flyby, with the potential of Ballistic Capture, and the pass of Mercury would be a flyby, then gravitational propulsions may assist.

The gravitation of the planet is about that of Mars: https://sciencing.com/gravitational-fac … 39815.html
Quote:

The gravity you would experience on each of the planets in the solar system if you were standing on the surface or, in the case of the ice giants, floating in the atmosphere, is:
Mercury: 0.38 g
Venus: 0.9 g
Moon: 0.17 g
Mars: 0.38 g
Jupiter: 2.53 g
Saturn: 1.07 g
Uranus: 0.89 g
Neptune: 1.14 g

So, biological reactions on the surface should be similar, as for gravity. Unlike Mars, energy will not be a hard problem, I think.

Anyway, something to consider. I do actually have the notion of humans working with all the terrestrial planets and the Asteroid belt and the Near Terrestrial Asteroids.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-05-10 11:19:24)

Void · 2023-05-10 11:27:54

I was driving home yesterday and had some thoughts about Mars. The relationship between ice burial and ice on the surface.

I would define buried ice as ice buried deep enough that sublimation is strongly inhibited. This ice has a limitation on sublimation. Only some of it is introduced into the atmosphere.

Surface Ice is either at the poles or on occasion an impactor dredges up some ice. This ice exposure is temporary as the ice will sublimate and the vapors will migrate elsewhere.

Mid-Latitude ice slabs are currently buried and stable over long periods of time for the most part.

China Water Evidence: https://scrippsnews.com/stories/china-s … d%20crusts.

My idea is that if a major impactor dug up sufficient ice, a temporary expansion of atmospheric pressure might be possible.

This Query: "High clouds warmed Mars"
General Response: https://www.lpi.usra.edu/planetary_news … go%20study. Quote:

High, wispy clouds similar to cirrus clouds on Earth could have warmed parts of Mars enough to support surface water early in its history, according to a University of Chicago study.

However, to get the situation China has given evidence of, you only need snow and salt in the soil, and sunshine. You don't need rain or even air temperatures above the freezing point of fresh water.

A factor that could have kept Mars wetter when it was younger would have been geothermal heat. That would restrict the long term burial of large amounts of ice, I feel. Of course polar tilt, and thickness and nature of atmosphere would matter as well.

https://news.agu.org/press-release/mult … %20authors.
Quote:

WASHINGTON—Scientists have discovered remnants of ancient ice sheets buried in sand a mile beneath Mars’s north pole, they report in a new study. The findings show conclusive evidence of the waxing and waning of polar ice on the red planet due to changes in its orbit and tilt, according to the study’s authors.

So, I am guessing that the above would have been less possible in the first part of Mars existence as geothermal heating would have been greater.

So to me it becomes important as well to understand how ice deposits get buried. Volcanic dust blown in the wind may do it, and I suppose rock ejected from craters may contribute.

So, that kind of volcanism, a dusty volcanism may alter the climate of Mars to be colder as the water ice gets taken out of circulation now.

To terraform Mars, I would expect that several tools would be used. This then can be another. If we can expose an appropriate amount of ice, we may cause the rise of high clouds that help to warm the planet.

To get a foothold on the planet, then I would hope there can be a settlement in the rift valley, presuming the existence of usable water and other materials and solutions to needs.

But then I suggest a brute force method.

One method would be to arrange impacts of ice bodies to expose more ice. This would be done with waste rock from Near Terrestrial Asteroids, that are to be incorporated into Cycling Platforms. Targets could be mid latitude ice slabs, or the poles themselves.

Beyond that though I think the game would be to go nuclear fission.

And this could target the Mid-Latitude ice slabs and the poles themselves.

OK, to do that you need the nuclear fuels. I suppose it might be mined on Mars, or gotten from Asteroids.

Sea water maybe? https://engineering.stanford.edu/magazi … lear-power
Quote:

Energy, Environment
How to extract uranium from seawater for nuclear power
As the world shifts from fossil fuels, a new way of extracting uranium from seawater could help countries without uranium mines harness nuclear power in our energy future.
February 17, 2017 | Tom Abate

So what about working with a Mid-Latitude ice slab? This old article: https://www.space.com/30502-mars-giant- … y-mro.html Quote:

To look at ice hidden beneath the Martian surface, Bramson and her colleagues focused on strange craters in a region called Arcadia Planitia. This area lies in the mid-latitudes of Mars, analogous to Earthly latitudes falling between the U.S.-Canadian border and Kansas.
These odd craters are about 1,075 to 1,410 feet (328 to 430 meters) wide.

Quote:

The ice the scientists found measures 130 feet (40 m) thick and lies just beneath the dirt, or regolith, or Mars.
"It extends down to latitudes of 38 degrees. This would be like someone in Kansas digging in their backyard and finding ice as thick as a 13-story building that covers an area the size of Texas and California combined," Bramson said.

So, if you were to pick a low point(s) on the slab and start melting, it is likely that the dirt on top would collapse into the formed lake/sea.

And you would have significant evaporation to the Martian atmosphere. You could put transparent protective vapor barriers over what you wanted to but the objective is to use the created Lake/Sea as a coolant for the nuclear power plants. And the ice reservoir(s) are very large.

Eventually though you might do this for the two poles even.

Mars may not have had plate subduction at all or perhaps not for a long time, so asteroids slamming into it maybe has enriched the amount of Uranium in the regolith. The Lake/Sea water may dissolve it and it may be available by that method.

And of course you would not do this without also releasing greenhouse gasses also.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-10 12:01:44)

Void · 2023-05-10 19:25:18

With the exception of Earth/Moon, Mercury, maybe Venus, Mars, and Ceres might do well with chemical engines that work on CO and O2, maybe even using Carbon powder with O2 although that will be tricky.

So, I feel it may be worth the investment.

That is not to say that you would not want other propulsion methods, but most of those tend to use up Hydrogen, which may or may not be a sensible process to use as well.

And then about Venus: "I'm Obsessed With Venus Now. Here's Why, Frazer Cain"
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=I% … ORM=VIREHT

I haven't watched the whole video yet, and will so now do so.

Well, one thing expressed is a view that magnetic fields may not have that much to do with a planets atmosphere. The view is that what the planet has for volcanism is much more important.

That is interesting.

But it is late and I am tired, so for now,

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-10 20:47:53)

Void · 2023-05-11 09:46:29

I suppose just now I am collecting notions.

Venus orbital period: 224.65 days
Mars orbital period: 687 days

So a ratio of ~3.0580 which is pretty close.

How useful might that be? Don't know, but it is interesting.

So, in a presumed notion of developing Venus for human use, some possibilities might exist around cycles and the pairing of Mars and Venus.

I have long been hesitant to cloud cities for Venus. In the past, I have considered methods to retrieve rocky materials up to the clouds of Venus from the surface of Venus. But two alternatives could be to transport materials from Mars/Phobos/Deimos, and/or Near Terrestrial Asteroids.

Mercury might be another option.

So, for these possibilities I am thinking solar sailing methods to pry these materials towards in encounter with the atmosphere of Venus.

Gravitational encounters with Venus might also be used, and maybe even with Earth/Moon.

In some cases a maneuver with going inside of the orbit of Venus, might allow a sort of Ballistic Capture by Venus.

Here is the post that started me to talk about Photon Sailing: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 51#p209351
So, you will see references to new skills for it. This, I suppose is the most of it:

Solar Sails are Even Better Than You Think, Frazer Cain
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-E83lC-eN0
https://phys.org/news/2022-05-kind-sola … icult.html

This article is more visual, and may be similar??? https://www.nasa.gov/directorates/space … ploration/
Image Quote: 2021_ph_ii_davoyan_graphic.png?itok=WQcY_dxH

How well this can be converted to moving bulk mass, is of interest. There could be many notions. I suppose in some, aerobraking to Venus atmosphere might be included. I have considered various methods, but ablative heat shield seems simple. But with solar sails, it may be possible to move mass to Venus orbit without aerobraking.

While almost everyone is interested in Cloud Cities, I am also interested in habitats the orbit Venus, and maybe even cyclers that include Venus as a parent object.

Methods to get materials to Venus orbit would be important then. Obvious if you have human inhabited cloud cities you need methods to move materials with rockets, almost certainly. But I also entertain tethers, and those tethers also to snag atmosphere to orbit as well, providing CO2, and Nitrogen I presume.

The question of Hydrogen needs solving. It might be extracted from the Sulfuric Acid in the clouds. Or it might be brought in from Mars/Phobos/Deimos or Mercury. Maybe even from Ceres.

Dual cyclers , 3 Venus/ 1 Mars, might be involved in transporting people.

So, a Mars/Phobos/Deimos settlement structure might support large scale inhabitation of Venus, both floating cities and orbital. Other objects/worlds might be involved as well.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-11 10:28:31)

Void · 2023-05-11 12:43:32

In a very good video today, "Angry Astronaut" has introduced "Vast Space" to myself, and I suppose others.

I will try to fetch the materials.

https://www.vastspace.com/

Query: "SpaceX and Vast plan to beat Jeff Bezos with the first Commercial Space Station in 2025!, Angry Astronaut"

Well, this is not it but appears to be related: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-AA1b1Jvl

Well, as usual it is hard to get the one I wanted first.

Later I will try again.

I do notice that Vast Space intends to build a "Stick" for artificial gravity. Dr. Johnson is the first person I witnessed the notion of a Baton from.

Other things to do just now.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-11 12:52:39)

Void · 2023-05-11 19:41:51

Well, I cannot get the Angry Astronauts video on Bing yet, maybe in a few days???

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-AA1b1Jvl
Image Quote: AA1b1Qb6.img?w=534&h=364&m=6

If I am to understand the plans modules will be added over time to form a Stick/Baton for generating synthetic gravity. I have noticed the solar panels.

Solar panels have been used in the past for aerobraking. As it happens this article seems to further the concept:
Quote:

Cartoon representation of a) current aerobraking with static, perpendicular solar panels, and b) the proposed concept using rotating solar panels to actively control the trajectory. CREDIT: The Grainger College of Engineering, University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign
New Control Technique Uses Solar Panels To Reach Desired Mars Orbit
January 25, 2022 Eurasia Review 0 Comments
By Eurasia Review

https://www.eurasiareview.com/25012022- … nd%20money.
Image Quote: a-50.png?resize=800%2C445&ssl=1
Quote:

“If we can rotate the solar panels, we can control how much drag is generated and we can actually steer during the atmospheric passes to control heating and energy depletion,” said AE Professor Zach Putnam. “This means we can fly much closer to operational constraints, and aerobrake much faster.”

So, now there are three terrestrials which this could be employed on, Venus, Earth, and Mars. If you could make a Stick/Baton that would not snap into pieces, and add "Wings" on it to increase surface area, then a method to Aerobrake may be practical. You could put thermal tiles on the other side from solar panels if you really wanted strong braking over a smaller time period, and perhaps just one pass. Other notions I have had recently would simply be a bat wing of struts and sheet metal where the heat would in part pass though the sheet metal "Membrane". Certainly you could do some of each. You would be trying for a capture to orbit, I suppose.

You could have Moon<>Earth, and also in similar fashion to Mars or Venus. And as these "Wings/Fins" would be large you might have variable air surfaces controlled with motors to "Skim" into a planets orbit.

This actually looks good for Venus to me. And to keep the Stick/Baton from cracking with limited high temperature you might use cables to assist in the endurance of braking forces. Propulsion might be by using tugs. Maybe Starships, maybe Nuclear.

Well, I like the idea.

Sometimes we talk about "Shell" worlds. I have in the past mentioned a in atmosphere shell. If you moved the greater portion of Nitrogen to above the shell, and nearly all CO2 and Sulfur compounds to below the shell, then you would have a Terraformed Venus.

Such a concept needs work, but the Shell could have a desired albedo to try to keep things moderate per temperature.

I also think you might have several shells. The outer shell might be a "Shading Shell", with many openings to the sky.

Of course humans will have to advance technologically quite a bit to do it but it is a rather nice dream.

It may be necessary to dump heat to below the shells to keep the atmosphere stable.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-11 20:07:52)

Void · 2023-05-12 09:26:17

Here finally is the Angry Astronaut Video about SpaceX & Vast Space: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Sp … M%3DHDRSC4

So, I am liking it myself.

But I am off to do something else now.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-12 09:43:56)

Void · 2023-05-12 11:05:28

An idea came to me this morning. It is not very wild and actually in many ways is not new. That can be a good thing, as then it is more likely to be usable.

Typically the use of the Oberth Effect is not associated with Electric Propulsion methods. But I think I see something of value.

Oberth Effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oberth_effect
Electric Rocket: https://sciencealpha.com/electric-rocke … f%20Newton.
Vasimr: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_ … sma_Rocket

The notion simply is to spin up a filled chemical rocket into an elliptical orbit around Earth or some other world, and then let then let the chemical rocket use the Oberth Effect to amplify results.

Then also to use the solar panels of the electric device to air brake back down to a low orbit to do it again.

And again, while solar panels might double as air brakes, I am also interested in "Bat Wings" (Of Dragon if you need that), or bird feathers.

None of these methods are useful in thick atmosphere at high speed, but may serve for aerocapture methods, I think as long as you do not go to excessive temperatures.

Various types of solar cells would have various temperature limits of tolerance. For Bat, Dragon, or Bird Wings, metals and ceramics might have high temperature tolerances. In these cases it might be desired to seek the bleed through of heat from the windward side of the structures to the leeward side to radiate off into space, more or less.

For the VASIMR, the disadvantages:

Disadvantages
According to Ad Astra as of 2015, the VX-200 engine requires 200 kW electrical power to produce 5 N of thrust, or 40 kW/N.[6] In contrast, the conventional NEXT ion thruster produces 0.327 N with only 7.7 kW, or 24 kW/N.[6] Electrically speaking, NEXT is almost twice as efficient, and successfully completed a 48,000 hours (5.5 years) test in December 2009.[9][10]
New problems also emerge with VASIMR, such as interaction with strong magnetic fields and thermal management. The inefficiency with which VASIMR operates generates substantial waste heat that needs to be channeled away without creating thermal overload and thermal stress. The superconducting electromagnets necessary to contain hot plasma generate tesla-range magnetic fields[11] that can cause problems with other onboard devices and produce unwanted torque by interaction with the magnetosphere. To counter this latter effect, two thruster units can be packaged with magnetic fields oriented in opposite directions, making a net zero-torque magnetic quadrupole.[12]

So, for the application I have here, an electric catapult/booster, radiators can be built into the solar panels / wings, and so the radiators then are suitable for air braking as well.

But if you hate VASIMR, then you can talk Electric Rockets. Fliuds consider for use are:

As in a conventional chemical rocket engine in ERD is also present in the working fluid, which is usually gas (argon, xenon, ammonia, nitrogen, hydrazine, etc.), sometimes – liquid, mixture of liquid and gas, liquid metals, metal vapors and solids (e.g., Teflon), and mixtures thereof.

So, I am thinking that as there is talk of slightly less efficient Ion Engines with more thrust, if you used those you could have both types, and use the high thrust ones for Oberth Effects, and the more efficient ones otherwise. So, the Electric rockets may be a better deal than the VASIMR for this.

An Elip[tical Orbit would allow humans to enter the device prior to the launch of the chemical stage, provided they had a light weight vehicle, and could get into shielding before the Van Allen Belts.

Comments are welcome.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-12 11:37:48)

Void · 2023-05-13 10:47:59

This showed up:
Marcus House, "SpaceX Unveils Raptor 3 Engine for Starship, and a Space Station with Vast!"
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=5+ … %26ghpl%3D

I am still wondering about the use of electric and chemical methods and the Oberth Effect, winding up elliptical lifting methods. As is typical I can see many variations.

I will wander about a bit on this. Unexpectedly an electric thrust system seems to be contemplated that can deal with Oxygen. In reality, it also uses Hydrogen as "A neutralizing gas???", and so it's propellant is to be water, which will be split. This makes me wonder if CO2 could be used instead, where CO would be the "neutralizing gas???". Although there are plenty of situations where the use of Hydrogen is justified, I would prefer to see a method using Carbon, rather Carbon Monoxide and Oxygen. Not at all sure that it is a great possibility, but the question formed in my mind. Here it is: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 6522006713

There is some efforts to increase thrust for electric propulsion: https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/04 … thrusters/ Quote:

Each of the Hall thrusters on Psyche will generate three times as much thrust as the ion thrusters on the Dawn spacecraft and can process twice as much power. This will allow the spacecraft to reach the Psyche asteroid, located in the main belt, in January 2026, after a 3.5-year journey.

Here is a useful one: https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2023/01/p … imits.html
Quote:

Plasma Thrusters Ran at 500% Beyond Old Power Limits
January 25, 2023 by Brian Wang
Benjamin Jorns, U-M associate professor of aerospace engineering led a new Hall thruster study that operated a Hall Plasma thruster at five times old power limits.
His team challenged ran a 9 kilowatt-rated Hall thruster at up to 45 kilowatts while maintaining roughly 80% of its nominal efficiency. This increased the amount of force generated per unit area by almost a factor of 10.
Hall thrusters are a well-proven technology. Previously, making larger and more powerful Hall thrusters would lose any higher power benefits from the higher mass. It turns out the old limit was not physics-based limits but engineering issues.
Now super-powered Hall Thrusters have a path to be made light and powerful enough to power high ISP megawatt propulsion.

So, I am wondering about a craft that could move from a Low Elliptical Orbit <> High Elliptical Orbit.

These may have significant solar power, but could have some means of chemical thrust to use at times.

As I have mentioned in recent posts here, the craft might have very large, and preferably thin wings to allow it to air brake from High Elliptical Orbit to Low Elliptical Orbit. In Low Elliptical Orbit Starship could refill it, perhaps with Argon, but maybe with materials captured from the Earth's upper atmosphere.

And so patience might be wanted then to go from Low Elliptical Orbit to High Elliptical Orbit. However, when passing closer to a world with significant gravity, the low pass, the perihelion, greater thrust might be employed to exploit the Oberth Effect. So, that higher thrust could be chemical but maybe eventually an amped up Hall Thruster. Depending on tastes though, a more efficient form of electric thrust might be employed for the rest of the orbit path(s).

Once the device was primed to High Elliptical Orbit it might release a self powered payload, to go on a mission of it's own, then the "Tug" would maneuver to airbrake back down to Low Elliptical Orbit. But an alternative would be for humans to get on board the "Tug" which would then actually stop being a tug, and would go onto a mission to another world. Air braking would be of no value at the Moon, but could be of value at Mars or Venus.

Batteries might be useful on the craft, if you were wanting to just run the high powered hall thrusters for Oberth Effect.

Some stuff to think about though.

So, the device would be like winding up a machine with power and then using it to a purpose.

I guess that's enough.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-13 11:24:36)

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