Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Void · 2023-04-06 09:06:40

For the case of the Moon, maybe this could work. You may need to install magnets on the ground though to cycle on and off in a sequence to keep the "Ring" materials orbiting and even to make them orbit higher. So, for that case the Moon would serve as the Stator of a Motor, and the ring would be the rotor. So probably magnets around the equator, on and off. But likely on only on the sunlit side, and in a sequence there, but it could work out. To be sure though you might loose considerable power to inductive reaction into the below surface Lunar materials.

I suppose it might be possible to fill a L4 or L5 zone with magnetic dust, and cause a Trojan accretion process.

This is a bit like the O'Neil notion, except it would be magnetic dust, and you would want it to impact an accretion object, and so then to puff up like a magnetic dust cloud. So, a sort of Fluffy Lithobraking in that manner. Periodically the flow could be shut down so that some of the dust could be "Harvested". Objects put into such zones tend to stay there. However there would likely be leakage, and you could have to consider if the solar wind could sweep that away or not. The size of the dust could be very important.

---------------

For Mars;

I think either a toroid or rings could be helpful. While much of the objective would be to create a magnetic field, I see the possibility that shading the low latitude areas may help to redistribute water ice. This used in conjunction with other terraforming methods, may make the Martian atmosphere warmer as water vapor is a greenhouse gas.

If by an assortment of methods the CO2 of the poles could be evaporated, I have read that Mars could have actual snowfall.

If a ring or torus of dust cools the lower latitudes, then more snow could be distributed there. But if it is not evaporated, would expect daytimes to evaporate the snow and put it back into the atmosphere to fall yet again.

So, if a magnetic field for Mars, wards off the solar wind, it is said by articles that I have read that the atmospheric pressure of Mars would rise up from that as well. Perhaps as water vapor in the atmosphere was exposed more to radiation, more Oxygen would accumulate.

If we have more Oxygen and the CO2 of the ice caps is evaporated, then temporary melt streams are possible from snow melts.

Previous conversations with Calliban, have pointed out that water in contact with regolith can pull gasses out of the atmosphere, so, I would suggest that an aqueduct system could reduce the amount of that problem by keeping the melt water away from fresh regolith, and by then turning the melt water into an asset as well.

As I have said, I anticipate that rings and a torus would not be the only terraforming action taken. Likely greenhouse gasses other than water would be used as well, possibly orbital mirrors and microwaves also. Perhaps Nuclear as well.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-04-06 09:28:31)

Void · 2023-04-07 10:37:34

The ideas about Lunar dust originated where I was thinking of a "Cup" orbiting in a low orbit of the Moon, and Mass Drivers shooting dust up to it. A crude idea of course. Perhaps it could be enhanced by superconductive magnets.

The problem with Mass Drivers to shoot into Lunar orbit is you need to circularize the orbit or the ballistic path will end in a collision with the surface of the Moon.

If an orbiting object is covered with magnetic dust, then you do have a cushioning device. You would be limited in the force of your dust launches by what could be survived by the dust itself, and the ability to have magnetic assistance. You would basically have a dust rubble pile with a magnetic core.

It would be preferred that they dust contain all the materials desired. Oxygen, Metals, Silicates and so on. So the dust grains might include small parts of magnetic iron. Metal Aluminum might be important as well. In impacting the magnetic field it would react with a counter emf. Also upon actual impact heating it may melt, and so absorb excess heat.

The Curie point of Iron is 770 C

The Melting point of Aluminum is 660.32°C

So, if you had iron filings embedded in Aluminum, the melting of the Aluminum just might allow the iron to remain magnetic after impact.
You would also include some Oxides of materials so that your dust contained Oxygen.

In this notion, you would make a special dust, on the Moon for this purpose, which may have enhanced properties to facilitate the catching of it to a orbital magnetic field.

This might work also for dust launched to L4 or L5.

But of course it would be better if you could just use native Lunar Dust. But I don't know that that would work.

So there may be a problem for sure, "aluminides".

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/en … aluminides

So, you would not want them to melt together as the result is non-magnetic. Maybe 3D printing could layer them so that they do not alloy.

Back to the drawing board, perhaps. I guess my betters can solve it some other way.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-04-07 10:55:47)

Void · 2023-04-11 17:42:57

I am happy to note the topic: "Index» Interplanetary transportation» Lunar Shipyards - Interplanetary Shipbuilding Bonanza"
Link: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 39#p208639

I think I will not intrude though. But I also am interested in the Moon more than before.

I don't know if rings can be a thing for the Moon, Maybe for other objects. I guess I will put rings on the backburner and try to size down to more reachable notions for now.

The Moon is in the "Habitable Zone", so in that sense if prime real estate possibly. The post Apollo retreat was to a large degree to answer for needs of that time. At least it was some power brokers decision for that time. So, to justify their decision, I believe that they tainted the truth about the Moon, or at least discouraged enthusiasm for a continuation of interest for discovery.

Now we live in another circumstance and can go beyond that. Discovery does suggest that the Moon has more to offer than was in that old assessment.

A member on that previously mentioned topic has suggested that "A human touch" is needed on the Moon, automation is not enough. I think that could well be true.

In earlier posts I have mentioned Limpets and Horseshoe Crabs. These are more or less having a "Dome" which to a degree has an open bottom and legs and manipulators to work with the surface materials. However inside the dome can be the volume of a living organism as well.

I understand why the Apollo EVA suits were as they were, no need to have problems with that.

But I feel that for the future, humans in reduced function suits, and also robots can be protected in part by a movable dome/shell.

When possible, it would be preferred to have a robot-like Optimus from Tesla do the work under the dome. But in some cases, a human might be on hand as well. The suit they would wear would be more like a SpaceX flight suit, as the shell would give them much of the protection of a Dragon Capsule, and perhaps even more.

https://www.space.com/spacex-spacesuits … eview.html
Image Quote:

Here I am presuming that where possible machinery will be on the ground so that the dome can be positioned over the site of the work that needs to be done.

So, the dome should help to regulate thermal conditions, lighting, radiation protection at least in some protective sections. The human most likely usually connected to the dome's life support with umbilical's.

Probably a pressurized cabin included as well to overnight in or stay in for prolonged periods.

Electrical power perhaps both solar and nuclear as options. The radiation shield for a reactor, may also protect from environmental radiation as well.

I am becoming of the opinion that it may be sensible to import desired materials to the Moon such as Carbon, if the local supplies are not sufficient.

I am also thinking that kdb512's thinking on a shipyard is worth strong consideration.

But I am very interested in the Blue Origin Solar Panels for the Moon.

I think that size matters for the Moon, as a harsh environment may favor large objects, and a low gravity may more permit large mobile structures such as mobile domes.

That's about it for tonight perhaps.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-04-11 18:11:43)

Calliban · 2023-04-11 18:17:48

The idea of a rotating ring within a stationary sleeve, if definitely something that could work with the moon. Isaac Arthur discussed this as a possible megastructure. The ring need not follow a perfectly circular orbit. One part of it could touch the lunar surface, whilst another could be a long way up in space. An elevator cable could be descended from the L2 point, with materials rising to L2 in buckets crawling up the cable. A counterweight hanging towards Earth woukd keep the cable taut. That means having a cable 61,000km long. Maybe a carbon fibre cable could be manufactured on Earth and transported to the moon. We could build the cable in segments, with strands tied to connector plates every hundred km or so. A steel cable would run down the middle, with carbon cables running the outside. Carriages carrying ore would climb the steel cable.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-04-11 18:26:07)

Void · 2023-04-11 19:06:05

I think it is good to both grunt and dream.

In other words, get a solid base of what you really can do, and to try to expand that base.
Like Mass Drivers, Skyhooks, and Space Elevators, the Moon may be easier to try orbital rings with as well.

I am also interested in having some "Dream Worlds" where these things can be done first. Such might be Ceres, Vesta, or some of the smaller objects.

For some of these worlds perhaps "Orbital Rings" would be landed back to the surface from time to time for repairs and maintenance?

The Moon is really attractive though as well, if you can mass import materials like Carbon and Water to the Moon from asteroids. I really think we should consider that we live on a binary planet, Earth/Moon.

Obviously if we are to be trading between the binary planet and the Asteroids, Mars will fall into place as well, probably very quickly.

It appears that the lately emerging space hardware will be able to "Do it all" so why not do it all?

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-04-11 19:08:07)

Void · 2023-04-12 10:50:57

(th) has a topic that is of interest also: "Index» Science, Technology, and Astronomy» Teleoperation".
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 06#p208706
His post seems to be connectable to the topic I mentioned in the previous post:

From the just previous post, that link:

I am happy to note the topic: "Index» Interplanetary transportation» Lunar Shipyards - Interplanetary Shipbuilding Bonanza"
Link: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 39#p208639

It is my opinion that a collection of machines on the Moon could be linked to computers and humans on Earth, as the time latency is relatively small. So, I fell a high degree of automation for the Moon is probably possible. Perhaps with a few humans.

I am going to try to limit my activity on this site, and probably avoid direct intrusion into other topics.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-04-12 11:00:55)

Void · 2023-04-12 16:06:03

So, I guess I will just past these here as some people are currently posting about the Moon and asteroids.

Microwave the Moon:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Sc … &FORM=VIRE

Building Bricks on the Moon from Potatoes, Frazer Cain:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xC7jFJYodIY

So, it is of interest. I guess the sun has placed trace amounts of Nitrogen and Carbon in the regolith of the Moon, and it is possible that the Lunar poles may have Carbon compounds, so maybe this can work out.

Done.

Void · 2023-04-13 19:03:56

I suppose many would quibble about calling the Earth/Moon a binary planet, but that is just word tricks.

Let's call it a binary world.

After all the two worlds may even be composed of some of the same materials.

So we are much more than what we might have thought.

We seem to have much to discover in our paths now.

Calliban posted this today: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 61#p208761
Quote:

Elon Musk suggests that launch costs using Starship may eventually decline to $20/kg.

At those rates can we dump garbage on the Moon?

So, what if we have a method to transfer garbage from space stations and space factories to the Moons surface?
What if we could extract Oxygen and other substances to assist in the transport, and to dump to space stations and factories in space?

Currently garbage is dumped into the atmosphere to burn up. But what might it be worth on the Moon? Plastics, paper, wrappings, scarce metals, and such. If you had to soft land it I guess you could but perhaps a certain amount of lithobraking could be performed.

I think it may not be madness.

A thing to think about.

Done.

Perhaps human waste as well.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-04-13 19:20:14)

Void · 2023-04-14 09:42:50

This article today: "Scientists May Have Finally Figured Out Where Earth's Water Came From
Story by Victor Tangermann • Yesterday 12:09 PM"

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … ears%20ago.

Quote:

Primordial Accretion
Scientists say they may have finally cracked the case on where the water on Earth — and other planets like it — came from billions of years ago.
As detailed in a new paper published in the journal Nature, primordial water may have formed as a result of hydrogen-rich atmospheres colliding with magma oceans roiling on the surface of planetary embryos, small celestial objects that clump together to form into planets like the Earth.
"Exoplanet discoveries have given us a much greater appreciation of how common it is for just-formed planets to be surrounded by atmospheres that are rich in molecular hydrogen, H2, during their first several million years of growth," said co-author Anat Shahar, a researcher at the Carnegie Institution for Science, in a statement. "Eventually these hydrogen envelopes dissipate, but they leave their fingerprints on the young planet's composition."
Water Signs
We've long suspected that rocky planets like the Earth formed as dust and gas surrounding the Sun accreted over time. These planetesimals became incredibly hot as they grew, forming vast magma oceans.

So, if I look it though carefully, it seems to imply that the original Terrestrials likely started as having both a Hydrogen dominated atmosphere and magma oceans. (Rich in H2, maybe not the dominant gas though?).

However, I would point out that other sources of water almost certainly occurred.

So, I would presume that H2 could chemically bond to some of the contents of the Magma, and that also Henry's Laws would apply allowing for Hydrogen containing compounds to dissolve into the Magma liquid.

The much unfavored idea that the Moon was accreted on it's own, would still allow for the Moon to have these factors as well, but it would be expected to lose its atmosphere much quicker.

In the case where the Moon formed from a collision and took a long time to accrete or the case where the Moon was formed by a giant splash of liquid Magma, I have trouble seeing how the ejecta cold efficiently lose its volatile substances.

The idea in the article above that much of Earth's water came from a Hydrogen rich atmosphere, does not allow for a "Dry" magma being ejected, so it would have had both chemically bonded Hydrogen and dissolved Hydrogen and compounds in it. Probably Carbon compounds as well.

If the Moon was formed by impact, then first there would be enormous acceleration on the materials, and then free fall. Neither one is likely to have ejected the bulk of the gasses from the Moon forming materials. In the slow accretion model, the fragments would have some small gravity which could allow gasses to bubble out, but with much surface area to mass, the surfaces of these objects should have turned solid rather quickly I expect. In the case where the Moon formed in hours from a liquid magma squirt into the sky, there would not be all that much opportunity for the interior of the Moon to outgas mush of it's volatiles. However, the materials adjacent to the surface could have done so. So, really not that much surprise that materials exposed to the sun's heat and the vacuum of space would have been depleted of volatile substances.

So, the question is, if you drill down will you find rock with Volatiles in it? The Russian drilling suggests that yest that could be true, at least in some places. But I have to confess, that rocks ejected from deep in the Moon from craters, should then have volatiles in them as well. I have not seen reports of that.

The Highlands seem to be more depleted, the Mara which erupted later are less depleted.

I believe that Japan cracked this open originally:
https://www.sciencealert.com/the-moon-i … o-question
Quote:

Carbon Emissions Detected From The Moon Could Force a Major Rethink of Lunar Origins
SPACE
07 May 2020
ByMICHELLE STARR
Our satellite is emitting a steady stream of carbon ions from almost its entire surface, contrary to the long-standing thinking that the Moon is depleted of carbon and other volatile elements. In fact, it seems that carbon has been there since the Moon's formation, or very shortly after, 4.5 billion years or so ago.

If the Moon were emitting Hydrogen and Hydrogen compounds, we would possibly have trouble detecting it, as the solar wind will mask the Hydrogen, and we think we see various signs of water even away from the poles, and tend to attribute it to non volcanic sources. I do not suggest that there are active volcano's. However cracks in the subsurface of the Moon, may conduct Argon and perhaps Carbon and Hydrogen related substances to the surface of the Moon. That is my guess. Not enough to make an atmosphere.

I would also wonder about asteroid and comet impacts. Generally, we have been told that they will completely evaporate, but I am not so sure. Perhaps parts of them can become buried in the materials falling back.

So, maybe we should have a further and deeper look at the Moon's resources.

Later Cratering may have indeed dried out some surface Lunar rocks: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Heavy_Bombardment

But my guess is that here and there places may exist where volatile bearing rock may be found, maybe even on the surface?

This ponders a report from the Soviets of water in rock on the Moon: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/air-spac … 110774900/

So, could both the Soviets and the Americans have been correct? I think so. If a heat source melted surface rocks in most places of the Moon, then most places may have dried out. But the Soviets may have stumbled into an exception. Saying this releases the pressure of embarrassment. Takes the politics out.

It may all be true, or perhaps everyone made mistakes and none of it is true. (Much less likely).

A bit more: https://www.technologyreview.com/2012/0 … to%20Earth.
Quote:

Crotts has unearthed evidence that the Soviets found good evidence of water in moon rocks in the 1970s.
One of the least known missions is the Soviet Luna-24 sample-return mission which landed on the lunar surface in August 1976. This drilled some 2 metres into the lunar surface, extracted 300 grammes of rock and then returned to Earth.

Quote:

Crott goes on to detail a number of other fascinating efforts to find water on the moon, including the famous impact experiment in which NASA slammed an empty rocket stage into one of these shadowy craters to see what the ejecta plume would look like. Sure enough, it contained plenty of water but lots of other stuff too including almost as much carbon monoxide as water.
Today, the idea of a dry moon has been completely overturned. “As recently as 2006 the settled value for the lunar bulk water content was below 1 part per billion. Most values now discussed well exceed 1 part per million,” says Crotts
That’s a remarkable turnaround but one that might have come a little sooner had the Soviet result been taken a little more seriously.

The truth will set you free.

So, we need it.

The actual real truth, not gas lighting from multiple parties.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-04-14 10:35:11)

Void · 2023-04-14 11:48:09

Actually this fits well with the notion of efforts for the Earth's Moon:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Th … M%3DHDRSC4
Quote:

NASA planning a Phobos base! Here's why Elon Musk should do the same!
The Angry Astronaut

I consider this notion to be justified, as long as space probes are used before making the investment. That is, if the nature of Phobos justifies it, then it "May" be justified to make the investment.

By various means, materials can be sent to Mars without the need for a Hohmann transfer, or atmospheric entry.

If it is decided to do this, it need not prohibit SpaceX from establishing a base on Mars with or without this.

As I often do, I will "Borrow" materials from other members, in this case Calliban: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 79#p208779

I feel that Calliban has some good materials in this post:

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 2,527
Email
A rocket sled is a viable option for launching raw materials from the lunar surface. The world speed record is 6400mph, which is somewhat higher than lunar escape velocity of 5300mph.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_sled
Low lunar orbit implies an orbital speed of ~1.5km/s, or 3360mph. So a lunar rocket sled capable of launching packages of mined ores into lunar orbit, does not stretch the state of the art. However, for this to work, the packages would need to carry a small rocket motor sufficient to lift their perogee above the lunar surface. They can then be collected in lunar orbit and transported to a refining facility at L5 or L4. The delta-V needed to do this is on the order of a few hundred m/s. So cold gas thrusters using stored liquid oxygen are a simple option for providing the thrust needed at apogee. The sleds would remain on the track and would rapidly decelerate after launching the package. Maybe we can propel them electromagnetically, or perhaps using a native propellant like LOX/Aluminium.
Even if mining is mostly automated or teleoperated, a human presence will definitely be needed on the surface. Equipment will need to be maintained and breakdowns will be common. Lunar dust is highly abrasive and electrostatic charge makes it sticky. So expect maintenance periods on anything with moving parts to be short. Vehicle wheels will need regular changes. This sort of maintenance needs to be carried out in pressurised garages, where people don't have to work through space suit gloves and they are protected from cosmic rays, temperature extremes and micrometeorites. I don't think we will be colonising the moon in the way we envisage colonising Mars. It is just too harsh. There is very little water, carbon, nitrogen, phosphorus, etc. It will never be a place where large numbers of people want to live. But it is very valuable as a mining colony.
One way of dealing with the problem of traversing Van Allen belts is to establish Earth-Lunar cyclers with eliptical orbits with perogee perhaps 500km above Earth atmosphere, and apogee just within or even past lunar orbit. These space stations could provide a way of traversing the distance between Earth and Moon in comfort, with good shielding against cosmic rays and Van Allen radiation. The expense of building them is mitigated by the fact that once established on their orbits, no additional propellant is needed.
In many ways, High Earth Orbit (HEO) is a more advantageous launch point for an interplanetary journey to Mars. An interplanetary spacecraft entering Earth orbit at lunar distance would be entering a weak gravity well, which reduces the propulsive effort needed to enter Earth orbit. A Starship could leave Mars with enough methane for high Earth orbit insertion and a return journey to Mars. Lunar derived oxygen could be provided in HEO and this represents the bulk of propellant mass. So lunar mining could ultimately eliminate the fuel needed from Earth to allow interplanetary transfers.
Last edited by Calliban (Today 10:28:22)

I feel that Calliban has a lot of good thinking in this post.

Now as concerning uncrewed robots to explore the moons of Mars, this could be in parallel to looking for a base site on Mars.

A "Naked" Starship taking a Ballistic Capture to Mars orbit could have many space probes attached to it's outside, and could depoy them to a purpose.

Such a ship would in part also rehearse a Mission to Mars for landing on Mars.

Many probes sent could be to a degree mimics of probes that have been sent before. During transit to Mars, they could draw power from the Starship. The Starship itself could have various types of radar to investigate the moons and Mars.

A type of probe I would like to see would listen to the interior of Phobos. I suppose some type of Seismograph.

Several of them might harpoon into the regolith. As for things to listen to, if Phobos is subject to tidal force, then their should be some sound traveling through Phobos. Along with radar on the Starship itself, this would be a way to look inside of Phobos.

Even if Phobos has Carbon and no Hydrogen, Hydrogen could be gotten from Mars itself. But I think some type of Hydrogen could be gotten from Phobos. Maybe just a quieted (+H) ion cloud inside Phobos. The Solar wind is absorbed into Phobos.

So, then perhaps the Calliban notion of Oxygen from the Moon and Methane from Mars could work out rather well, as it would come from Phobos or from Phobos and Mars.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-04-14 19:19:15)

Void · 2023-04-14 19:19:59

Some further notions of Earth water, another article: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … 8cc84&ei=2

I suppose that is a repeated article, but a important one.

Anton Petrov gave a good video today:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=An … M%3DHDRSC4

Old seafloor and possibly mountains wrapped around the Earth's core, it is ventured.

This is a presumed major difference between the Earth and other worlds Luna, Mars, and perhaps Mercury.

Those worlds are presumed to have not had major plate tectonics. The video suggests that a lot of dense materials sank down with that seafloor and those mountains. And I suppose the Earth's present crust is somewhat depleted of heavy elements because of that process.

I suppose I could include Europa in this, as it may have plate tectonics of it's ice. Such a process may conduct heavy and radioactive materials onto the seafloor of Europa as well. The Magnetic Field of Jupiter may transmute substances into radioactive materials as well.

And this might help to warm Europa, (And create food gasses). In a similar way the feeding of heavy and radioactive materials into the lower levels of Earth may help keep the interior of the Earth warmer as well.

But we think that tha worlds Luna, Mars, and Mercury, have not done this. So we might expect more heavy and radioactive materials to remain higher in the crust than for Earth and I suppose Europa.

We might expect that lots of Ores may be present in Volcanic structures on these worlds. These may have very useful materials.

I keep getting surprised about the Moon. I Queried for this: "Volcanism on the Moon".

https://www.science.org/content/article … tions-moon
Quote:

Recent volcanic eruptions on the moon
Scientists find 70 lava flows thought to have occurred within the past 100 million years
12 OCT 2014BYERIC HAND

Image Quote:

Quote:

The moon, thought to be cold and dead, is still alive and kicking—barely. Scientists have found evidence for dozens of burps of volcanic activity, all within the past 100 million years—a mere blip on the geologic timescale. And they think that future eruptions are likely—although probably not within a human lifetime.

Now, I guess that matches with Mars which it is discovered is also even more active, when both were presumed by many to be dead.

Probably forbidden speculation but, I do speculate that perhaps electric currents generated by the sun may flow though these worlds and help to heat them. I suppose I could go to speculation hell for saying that!

Well, maybe it does not, but maybe it does.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-04-14 19:40:57)

Void · 2023-04-15 08:48:08

This stuff seems to all be working together: https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/m … f7da&ei=12
Quote:

Massive ocean discovered beneath the Earth's crust containing more water than on the surface

............Scientists previously discovered that water is stored inside mantle rock in a sponge-like state, which isn’t a liquid, solid or a gas, but instead a fourth state.
The scientific paper titled ‘Dehydration melting at the top of the lower mantle’ was published in 2014 and laid out the findings.
"The ringwoodite is like a sponge, soaking up water, there is something very special about the crystal structure of ringwoodite that allows it to attract hydrogen and trap water," said geophysicist Steve Jacobsen at the time.

So, if the materials of Mercury, Venus, Earth, Luna, and Mars all were possibly exposed to early Hydrogen influenced atmospheres, we might wonder if they also may have such reservoirs of water. Venus of course seems questionable for that. Nothing is certain for the others.

But if the Moon has such a reservoir, then it may be that water is slowly leaking out of it to the surface at a very low rate.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-04-15 09:01:41)

Void · 2023-04-15 09:02:56

A method of chemical propulsion related to CO & O2 type has occurred to me. When I was in a mineral processing facility, three methods were available to heat kilns.

Oil, Natural Gas, and Coal Dust. So a Carbon dust powered propulsion system may be of interest.

Carbon is around on most worlds, but not so much our Moon. I will admit that Carbon will probably have lots of problems. But if you could pre-burn it to CO and then inject that into a final combustion stage, you might have something. Not for launching from a planet or Moon, but for transit Earth/Moon<>Mars/Phobos/Deimos.

So, I guess it could be considered true that Carbon may be available from Phobos and Deimos and is surely available from Mars itself.

Carbon can be stored at various temperatures, so you would not have boil-off of it. It also may provide thermal insulation and some radiation protection.

Here we are: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulverize … red_boiler
Quote:

Pulverized coal-fired boiler
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A pulverized coal-fired boiler is an industrial or utility boiler that generates thermal energy by burning pulverized coal (also known as powdered coal or coal dust since it is as fine as face powder in cosmetic makeup) that is blown into the firebox.
The basic idea of a firing system using pulverised fuel is to use the whole volume of the furnace for the combustion of solid fuels. Coal is ground to the size of a fine grain, mixed with air and burned in the flue gas flow. Biomass and other materials can also be added to the mixture. Coal contains mineral matter which is converted to ash during combustion. The ash is removed as bottom ash and fly ash. The bottom ash is removed at the furnace bottom.
This type of boiler dominates coal-fired power stations, providing steam to drive large turbines.

So, then you might have a two stage engine system or a three stage method.

Two Stage: 1) The preburner converts Carbon Dust to CO by mixing the dust and Oxygen. Some heat would emerge from this. 2) You push the hot CO into a rocket nozzle and provide more Oxygen.

Three Stage: 1) Preheat the Carbon Dust. 2) The pre-burner converts Carbon Dust to CO by mixing the dust and Oxygen. Some heat would emerge from this. 3) You push the hot CO into a rocket nozzle and provide more Oxygen.

Preheating a tank of Carbon Dust would probably be done at a space station/launch site.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon
Image Quote:
Quote:

Sublimation point 3915 K (3642 °C, 6588 °F)

So, by mass Carbon would be approximately ~1/3 the mass of the propellants, so could store some heat.

It may be possible to send powdered Carbon to high Earth Orbit by some means such as an Argon Electric propulsion system.

In this post Calliban is quoted: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 86#p208786
Quote:

In many ways, High Earth Orbit (HEO) is a more advantageous launch point for an interplanetary journey to Mars. An interplanetary spacecraft entering Earth orbit at lunar distance would be entering a weak gravity well, which reduces the propulsive effort needed to enter Earth orbit. A Starship could leave Mars with enough methane for high Earth orbit insertion and a return journey to Mars. Lunar derived oxygen could be provided in HEO and this represents the bulk of propellant mass. So lunar mining could ultimately eliminate the fuel needed from Earth to allow interplanetary transfers.

Methane from Mars may be the way to go, but I wanted to make the point that Carbon might do as well, with some advantages and disadvantages. Carbon powder could be stored long term in canisters at Earth/Moon location and would be stable during transit from Mars/Phobos/Deimos.

I like the idea as we do not draw from Hydrogen reserves on the Moon, except for launching to low Lunar orbit perhaps???

The pairing of Argon Electric Propulsion with Carbon Cargo, looks good to me for availability from the Moon and Mars for Argon, and for Carbon, we think Phobos, Deimos, and if needed, Mars.

To get Oxygen from Phobos, you would simply heat Carbon Powder with fine regolith, to created CO/CO2, then separate the Carbon and Oxygen.

For Lithobraking to the Moon's surface, I think Carbon powder is a good candidate, as it will fluidize itself with the dust of the Moon, upon impact. Such is at least worth evaluating the potential for, I feel.

I think also that if your Carbon Dust comes from the surface of Mars, such a payload will be relatively inert, which could be helpful to reduce handling risks.

I would appreciate feedback from the membership on this one especially.

We could also default to CO and O2, but then you cannot preheat the Carbon dust, and would not get the chemical energy in the creation of 2 Carbon + O2 to create 2CO, (I hope).

In order to fluidize the Carbon Dust, you would need a gas, such as CO2 or CO perhaps.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-04-15 09:37:55)

Void · 2023-04-15 10:35:25

Watching this now: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=+S … %26ghpl%3D
Quote:

How crazy is the idea to beam solar energy down from space?

This this about Fusion I suppose: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?&q=+ … ajaxhist=0

Little by little I feel I am learning.

I also understand that Uranium can dissolve in water solutions. So, maybe aquifers might supply it?
Honestly for Mars I would think that Fission could go a long way. But there is no reason to turn up the nose for space solar or fusion, they may turn out to be good as well.

Space Solar for Mars looks kind of good, as Phobos and Deimos are in the orbits or Mars already. I do have concerns that dust storms may block microwave and laser power transmissions. I don't know for sure.

However orbital solar can also feed orbital habitation for similar reasons. Much materials from Phobos and Deimos, and then from Mars itself and even the asteroid belt.

For the habitation of the surface of Mars, there could be a graceful method and a brute force method. I think graceful would be to find a source of needed resources at low latitudes. This is the likely "Starter method".

Brute Force will be to take over the polar ice caps, and the surrounding layered terrain of Mars. Very large energy sources would be helpful for this.

Perhaps there is some difference between the white icy caps and the dusty surrounding terrains:
https://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/imagega … _1731.html
https://mars.nasa.gov/mgs/sci/fifthconf99/6028.pdf

Some info here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martian_polar_ice_caps

Calliban has recently speculated on a method to generate greenhouse gasses from Earth and delivered to Mars. He as usual has a well structured indication of what this would cost.

I feel that it is a good notion but that it could be used along with other terraform methods to do the job, I hope.

I have in the past suggested a brute force method to liquify the polar caps and the surrounding layered terrain. Of course now I would modify that to the creation of a mesh of pools of water and canals. This will require more energy and heat.

So, I am interested in sources of energy.

One method to heat Mars could involve the use of water ice clouds in the high atmosphere. This might help it appears.
This speaks of it: https://www.lpi.usra.edu/planetary_news … go%20study.
I suspect that Mars also had residual gasses with Hydrogen in them as well when it was warm.

As it turns out Hydrogen itself has some interesting greenhouse effects in an indirect way: https://newatlas.com/environment/hydrog … house-gas/
Quote:

When hydrogen is present, however, those hydroxyl radicals react with the hydrogen instead. There are fewer cleanup agents to go around, so there's a direct rise in methane concentrations, and the methane stays in the atmosphere longer.
What's more, the presence of hydrogen increases the concentration of both tropospheric ozone and stratospheric water vapor, boosting a "radiative forcing" effect that also pushes temperatures higher.

So, you may protect your Methane in the atmosphere by releasing Hydrogen to the atmosphere, and this may add stratospheric water vapor , which I think could contribute to high altitude ice clouds that will help warm the planet.

My suspicion is that the dust to ice ratio may be key to why Mars is now colder. And it may show how Mars could warm up on occasion. If you put the dust over the ice then less water vapor goes to the sky, and things stay cold as the dust prevents the evaporation of ice.

If however you could form a body of water, and the dust would fall to it's floor, then the water cycle would not be so inhibited and you would get a water vapor powered greenhouse effect. But it is hard to have open water on Mars. Exposed ice would work as well, I think, but then dust can accumulate on top of it.

Open water or ice on Mars may cause the high altitude ice clouds and may also allow radiation to create Hydrogen and Oxygen from water.
The Hydrogen will protect Methane, and also help reform water in the stratosphere, and apparently helps Ozone to develop, at least in the Troposphere.

To get around this an early method might be to emit water vapor from a ice/water reservoir, and to escort the water vapor to high altitudes using power beams to keep it in vapor or small ice particles that can flow up with the heated air/water vapor.

Calliban has also suggested shooting ice slugs into an intercept with the Mars orbit so that they would eventually vaporize in the Martian atmosphere. This would replenish the water for Mars, so that you could allow the open water cycle to occur. The ice slugs may need a bit of protection from sunlight, I think but that might be possible.

Anyway, I think the use of multiple methods can likely get Mars into a mode where the full atmosphere potential can be inflated.

Done.

For the Moon, I think that we do not yet know what the water resources really are. It may have more than we think. The same for Carbon. However Carbon or Water could be imported, possibly using lithobraking to some degree. But Nitrogen will be in short supply. Maybe imported Ammonia eventually?

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-04-15 12:04:46)

Void · 2023-04-16 10:04:13

I was not going to post today, but obviously I changed my mind. As long as it does not spoil my mood, I guess I will.

I have been thinking about the Moon and Mars. For a time there was a conflict of those who did and those who did not allow for the Moon. Many felt that the efforts from NASA would be diverted from Mars, if the Moon were to be returned to. At least that was their argument on the surface. Anyway whatever sinister motivations a small number of them may have had, the apparent soon to emerge advances in space hardware are going to render the argument pointless, as if you can do one, then likely you can do them all.

Starship and hardware like Starship, seem to be formed to just barely be able to access Mars, running on last reserves of propellant they might land on Mars. For the Moon although I am a bit confused apparently, they could land, and then ascend to the Halo Orbit of the proposed Lunar Gateway, they can at least do that. I believe that this does not allow for propellant production on the Moon. If you could produce Oxygen on the Moons surface, then you would be able to increase the performance of Lunar Starships.

Another way to bend the rules, would be to push one Starship towards the Moon with another Starship which would serve as a booster in orbit, and would not return to the Moon but loop back to enter the Earth's atmosphere to land.

Another trick to bend the rules would be to send a Depot to a Lunar Location, and refill propellants for a Starship there.

So, at a additional cost, you could expand the capabilities of a Starship system or other systems of hardware emerging.

This topic seems very interesting to me: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=10486
As of this the last post I note is #19.

And so, although Starship is measured for Mars, I think we should very much also value the Moon.
1) It may be relatively easy to establish a highly automated/robotic presence on the Moon with small time latency to the Earth, and just a few humans.
2) It may be that the Moon could be a major place for lots of people to live eventually, if it unfolds that sufficient resources can be found there, and if adaptation of humans to the Moon is possible.

The seems to be some thinking about artificial gravity being implemented on the Moon. I think that in the time of Gerard O'Neill, this was not considered to be very possible. I like the ideas of Gerard O'Neill, and think that something like it is likely eventually, but I feel that if you can do artificial gravity on the Moon, there may be a good case for doing a lot more on the Moon itself.

And interesting query is "Centrifuges on the Moon".

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Centrifug … 975b89da1a

This is interesting: https://learningenglish.voanews.com/a/j … 20explains.

This is also interesting: https://lunarpedia.org/w/Artificial_Gravity_on_Luna
Quote:

Saving Power
Before many irate readers lambaste this idea for wasting energy consider these power saving features. To reduce air resistance from the floor of the living quarters moving at a speed of 103 miles per hour, the centrifuged living quarters could be built within three nested shells which also rotate. From outer shell to living quarters the speeds of each section would be 25 mph, 51 mph, 77 mph, and 103 mph. The result is that the air resistance loss would be about the same as for a similarly sized doughnut rotating at 26 miles per hour. The drag from the living quarters would pull along the next outer shell and the torque would be passed down to the outermost shell. The savings on air resistance should handily exceed the increased rolling resistance if the shells were carried one on the other by steel wheels or rubber wheels. Shells supported by magnetic levitation should work as well. The rotavator would automatically rendezvous with each shell in turn and transfer to that shell by longitudinal tracks before continuing on circular tracks within each shell. Matched rotavator cars could always operate in synchronization from radially opposite points to reduce asymmetric loading.

As an alternative to nested shells, the room housing the centrifuged living quarters could be pumped down to 0.002 atmospheres pressure and transfers to and from them would go through airlocks. The rotavator would then be a pressurized vehicle. In any case it is not justified to write articles claiming that settlers on Luna would be stuck with one sixth g gravity.

So, actually though you could have lots of "Land" at 1/6th gravity and then these spinney things, and let the markets decide what is most rational per cost/benefits.

The view of the Moons resources seems to keep getting more favorable in this era. We also don't know for sure how expensive it might be to bring resources from the Asteroids or even Mars to the Moon and the orbits of Earth.

As for moving materials to the Moon, I have previous suggested Carbon Dust, but I also am interested in Chemical composition of Bitumen.
Query: "Chemical composition of Bitumen"

https://sciencealpha.com/bitumen-proper … tav-bituma
Quote:

The name of a chemical element: %% content
Carbon, With 70-80
Hydrogen, N 10-15
Sulfur, S 2-9
Nitrogen, N to 2
Oxygen, O 1-5
and other

Actually, what I am looking for is a heavy oil that can be made solid with somewhat cold temperatures. Although I am interested in what can be built with it in cold places, I am also interested in it's individual chemicals.

We could try to lithobraking a powder of it, we also might 3D print a lattice of it, so that crushing on impact will help absorb the energy of impact. As far as melting on impact, I hope that it would tend to cool to a solid quickly. Perhaps if dropped into a shadowed crater. If it splashes on cold Lunar regolith.

I do understand that there will be limits of tolerance as to the survival of the product. Too much impact speed and it may be lost away from the ability to retrieve economically.

So, anyway I feel that a cold heavy oil/tar may travel well from sources to the Moon without too much fuss. It will contain a lot of Carbon, some Hydrogen, and a bit of Nitrogen.

So, letting the free market run, I guess the importation of such will depend on how valuable it is on the Moon.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-04-16 11:13:07)

Void · 2023-04-16 11:43:56

It is possible that a Bitumen-like substance for transport could be created from Mars/Phobos/Deimos to transport to the Moon, but when I queried for Carbon on Ceres, I got 20% of the surface materials.

This supports the potential for Nitrogen from Ceres as well: https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/ab … C89F53B906

And of course surface mounted spin habitats for Ceres would possibly be valid as well, although a plan from Finns suggests a "Mega-Satellite".

So, given the propulsion methods could be developed sharing resources/trading resources may well be an option that could make our Moon more habitable for human populations.

And so then the Moon could also be a large resource base with the use of a lot of robots and automation.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-04-16 11:48:13)

Void · 2023-04-16 17:30:43

Well, my plans were interrupted by snow, so I guess I might as well do some of this.

(This could be a sort of blueprint for Mars as well).

I am always rather glad for other people's innovations. But I am going to work on the Moon myself a bit now.

I think that lava tubes are of interest but I would not restrict activities to them.

To begin with I think that if you filled two skylights with Lunar Regolith, then you could have a useful unpressurized space between them where you could operate a factory, using robots of various types, and vehicles of a factory nature.

The idea of a filled skylight would allow the cleaning of an area of the Moons surface, and you could build habitat space in the regolith while you filled the skylight. Perhaps an associated centrifuge for artificial gravity as well.

We cannot dictate where a lava tube and it's skylights are so that factor is fixed, you have to play the game that way.

Query: "lunar lava tubes"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?pglt=43&q=l … 31&ntref=1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_lava_tube
Picture Quote:
Quote:

Sinuous 50‑km‑long chain of collapse pits transitions into a continuous uncollapsed segment of a lunar lava tube.

Such might be the "Cities" of the Moon. They will need power and some Organic Chemistry.

The Chemicals may have to be imported from the polar Areas or from asteroids/Mars/Etc.

I don't object to Nuclear, but coolants are a bit of a problem. For this, solar might do fine. Provided you had energy storage. Other solutions would be orbital power plants to send power, or reflect sunlight into the Lunar night.

Here is another article with nice pictures: https://www.nbcnews.com/mach/science/gi … ncna813396

Picture Quote:
Quote:

Moon Colonists
The hollow is so huge it could swallow up a big city like Philadelphia.

Quote:

The Marius Hills Skylight, as observed by the Japanese SELENE/Kaguya research team.NASA/Goddard/Arizona State University

Image Quote:
Quote:

Earth also has lava tubes, but they're not nearly as large as the one discovered on the moon. If the scientists' gravity analyses are correct, the lava tube near Marius Hills could easily house a large U.S. city such as Philadelphia, they said.

At this time I do not anticipate pressurizing the lava tubes, but perhaps to build pressurized space in them and also in the skylights, where in the case of the skylights you would pile regolith on top of them, but the entrances to them may also be inside the lava tube proper.

As far as energy storage may go, perhaps it could be in coarse regolith in the form of heat. But batteries and flywheels are notions as well.

For work on the surface such as solar panels, transport rails and roads and power conductors, I consider large portable domes to be a good starting notion. I have mentioned this before. Such Domes might tap power off of rails that also serve as power conduits, and connect to an ever expanding amount of solar panels. Nuclear is not forbidden, but maybe it is a good thing for space transport instead. You can have a heck of a thermal energy storage with some methods with lava tubes. Lunar nights might not be that big a problem.

This is kind of nice: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Wh … &FORM=VIRE

Of course Earth tubes are smaller and more subject to erosion.

Lava Tubes Colonies on the Moon: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?&q=W … ajaxhist=0

I guess that is enough for now.

Done.

Robots with legs:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?&q=W … ajaxhist=0

Done.

I think that mobile domes can likely have legs and wheels, perhaps a combination(s)

Last edited by Void (2023-04-16 18:27:38)

Void · 2023-04-18 19:57:43

A Shepard and Sheep method.

I am considering Ceres as an example, but there ore apparently other sizable asteroids of similar nature which could be alternatives.

The "Sheep" will be Bitumen Shells reenforced with Carbon Nanotube web perhaps. They will be launched by Mass Driver. They may have water ice / liquid water inside. Ice on launch, water later.

I think the Shepard can be Nuclear Fission powered.

I have borrowed from many members, various things. I recall Dr. Johnson saying that you could use water in a Nuclear rocket. Ceres is not so likely to have lots of materials for a Nuclear Electric process, so I presume a very hot water steam. I have wondered if the water could have Hydrogen gas or some other substances dissolved into it, to improve or alter performance.

So, there could be several versions. In one more standard in nature you have these bitumen tanks full of ice/water, and your Nuclear Shepard lifts if off from Ceres. Not really what I was after though.

The next one up would be to use a mass driver to shoot the sheep into an orbit of Ceres, and have the Nuclear Shepard gather them all and then it would use the water to push the Bitumen Load inward in the sun's gravity well, perhaps to the Moon.

And then if the Mass Drivers on Ceres were strong, the sheep would leap out of the orbit of Ceres and into a orbit of the sun. So the Shepard would have to chase them down one at a time.

Then bring the Bitumen to a destination like the orbit of Earth or the Moon.

Bitumen is an option, but of course plastics and other substances could be involved. The intention is to have a mix of Carbon, Hydrogen, Nitrogen and perhaps other atoms in the materials structure.

Probably Mars would not be the destination. Actually it might be a better place than Ceres to launch the Sheep and Shepard from. But supposing Ceres is the place, then the Shepard, having gathered the Sheep could do a flyby of Mars to get to Earth/Moon. Then it probably has to use brute force to complete the mission. But if it flew by Venus, it might travel then to Earth/Moon and do a Ballistic Capture.

Keep in mind that this is a trial balloon. It would need a lot of work some professional assistance is wanted also.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-04-18 20:10:24)

Void · 2023-04-19 08:49:39

This showed up today: https://phys.org/news/2023-04-moon-rocket-fuel.html
Quote:

The moon may be the best place to transport rocket fuel
by Laurence Tognetti, Universe Today

I enjoy things that come from Europe, as they have a different approach, and, it is no surprise that that is a bit like having more than one eye or one ear. Better awareness results.

Of course I like stuff from other planetary zones as well, but Europe and Japan are more connected to the North America culturally from my viewpoint. Easier to get stuff from them.

I think it fits in with recent stuff from the members, such as kdb512 and Calliban, (th).

Of course calculations can be confusing. But it is an interesting article.

Sources of propellants could be many. For the Moon though Oxygen looks pretty good, but I understand that some NEO's are easier in some ways to access. Debatable.

I am sure that the calculations are not locked in, as invention and discovery can change the market factors for propellant sourcing.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-04-19 09:00:03)

Calliban · 2023-04-19 10:06:09

Regarding post 968. MHD thrusters are able to use many different propellants and can achieve exhaust velocity 50km/s.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magneto … c_thruster

Hydrazine is mentioned. Why not ammonia? There is plenty of ammonia dissolved in water ice on Ceres.

For launching from Ceres surface, a space elevator would work well. The gravity of Ceres is low enough to allow such an elevator cable to be made from steel. Ceres synchronous orbit has altitude 722km.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronous_orbit

A 1" thick cable 722km long, would mass 1800 tonnes, but would only weigh 50te on Ceres surface. If HEO manufacturing takes off, this is something that we could ship to Ceres. The bitumen covered snowballs could be loaded into buckets on a pulley system, with one pulley wheel on the surface and the other in synchronous orbit. The nuclear powered shepherd would launch them onto an eliptical, Earth grazing orbit, before returning to Ceres.

Fibre reinforced bitumen would be a cost effective shell material. The low thermal conductivity of bitumen would help protect the ice from solar heat flux.

I can think of two low cost ways of capturing the snow balls in Earth orbit. (1) A plasma beam generator in HEO could be used to slow the snow balls as they pass close to Earth. If the snow ball is equipped with a magnetic drag chute, then the chute will trap the ions, which will transfer their momentum. (2) We allow the snow ball to enter a bell shaped container, full of loose lunar dust, with a narrow entrance. The snow ball will transfer momentum to and dissipate energy as heat in the loose dust. Some will be lost as steam, some will be captured.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-04-19 10:26:35)

Void · 2023-04-19 10:48:32

Interesting variations. I have a tendency to want to conserve Carbon, Hydrogen, Nitrogen, but when dealing with Ceres and the like it occurs to me that such thinking is not correct. Where I have a tendency to think to expel Oxygen for propulsion, water itself has plenty of Oxygen in it and Hydrogen is not scarce on Ceres or similar objects. Indeed though, if the ice and water of Ceres and it's like have significant amounts of Ammonia, then being stingy with Nitrogen becomes perhaps not the most productive thinking.

So, if I understand you are suggesting magnetic parachutes for the payload to equilibrate with the motion of the Earth? That being the impact of the payloads magnetic field with the Earth's magnetic field? OK, so that magnetic field may be solar powered, to avoid nukes near Earth?

But also the Shepard, having a power supply, might have a magnetic field and return to Ceres or it's like, using a ride on the solar wind. That might be the advantage of MHD vs Nuclear Thermal propulsion?

The magnetic braking for the payload being solar, would be OK, as it is in use for that near the Earth. But the solar power device would still have some ability to trim navigation while passing to Earth/Moon, even in the Asteroid Belt.

Perhaps you may wish to trim the navigation on the flow of this conversation?

It looks pretty good to me though.

As for

Fibre reinforced bitumen would be a cost-effective shell material. The low thermal conductivity of bitumen would help protect the ice from solar heat flux.

, nothing forbids variable albedo on the exterior of the envelope to control interior temperatures, and it would be permissible to have a vapor barrier between the bitumen shell and the ice/water content.

I have made note of some of your other ideas in the previous post as well.

It is exciting to have a place where invention and discovery is very possible.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-04-19 11:01:41)

Void · 2023-04-19 11:22:31

As a follow up to the last post responding to you Calliban, I note that the Earth/Moon which I will call a binary world(s), subsystem, offers the Earth's magnetic field, and the potential for gravity assistive flyby's of Earth and the Moon, and that lithobraking into the dark craters of the poles of the Moon exist as notions to consider.

In addition, previously I mentioned that magnetic fields and the solar wind allow course corrections. Also, along the way Mars is an opportunity for a gravity assist.

Deviating just a bit from the conversation, I feel that we should mess with the language that describes solar system objects.
The Earth/Moon is a binary object for instance. Alright not a binary planet could be accepted as an allowed continuation.

But now Pluto and Ceres are not Planets? What's that? The word planet appears in their class title.

So, basically all dwarf planets are actually planets. Just like all terrestrials are planets, and all gas giant planets are planets, and all ice giant planets are planets.

Sometimes when the language is used to put you in cages, you have to pick the locks, and mess back, and harness the language to serve your purposes.

So, really we have more than 8 planets. Sorry, hope this does not twist their underwear too much.

But if feels good to me!

Done.

Back to lithobraking our tar/ice balls to the Moon, I read some time ago if you dropped an ice ball into the lunar night, lithobraking it, 60 to 40 % of if may survive until daybreak. That does not specify speed of course, which will matter. But our balls upon striking a dark crater, may preserve more that that, but it may be scattered more than is efficient. Hard to say. Maybe some that remains solid stays in one spot. The vaporized parts may bounce about with some of it leaving the crater.

As I have mentioned before, however, in lithobraking some thruster braking is not prohibited.

A special propulsion device not designed to land on the Moon might escort the balls though part of the pathway, and then release them to an impact.

I have been getting "Internal Server Error" so I could not complete my post....................

Here it is:
From Calliban Post #970:

I can think of two low cost ways of capturing the snow balls in Earth orbit. (1) A plasma beam generator in HEO could be used to slow the snow balls as they pass close to Earth. If the snow ball is equipped with a magnetic drag chute, then the chute will trap the ions, which will transfer their momentum. (2) We allow the snow ball to enter a bell shaped container, full of loose lunar dust, with a narrow entrance. The snow ball will transfer momentum to and dissipate energy as heat in the loose dust. Some will be lost as steam, some will be captured.

Yes, a bell may have Moon dust, perhaps magnetic Moon dust, and so you would perhaps in part Litho-brake into it.

You could have a propulsive device coupled to the ball, which would decouple from the ball prior to Litho-brake engagement. So differential speed could also be modified in that manner, and also the escort would aim it to the target bell.

Last edited by Void (2023-04-19 13:07:49)

Void · 2023-04-19 19:07:30

Test. OK, I was unable to finish the previous post, it kept doing the Internal Server Error message. But I seem to be able to do this post.

its back

Last edited by Void (2023-04-19 19:12:30)

Void · 2023-04-20 19:19:43

Isaac Arthur, "Life on Giant Moons": https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/l … 0609840725

I don't know if we will ever actually interact with one.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-04-20 19:20:17)

Void · 2023-04-21 19:11:40

So, there is some trouble with the Starship. Not so surprising, it is new. I do not feel that I have much to add to solutions for that, particularly not to the launch pad situation.

So, I guess I will look at other tools that might help us get into position to para terraform the Moon.

Earlier I was considering the use of Starship to refill other types of ships. Don't get me wrong, I am all for Lunar Starship. However, it will have its utility, and I feel we might want additional tools.

I do like the Stokes machine. I was thinking it might be nice for Starship(s) to fill a vehicle in that family and to give it a boost to the Moon, using its Metha lox system. In that case Starship(s) would refill the vehicle, and also serve as an orbital boost stage. The Stokes machine then would be on its own. Presuming it would land on the Moon and then take off, it might also not only be partially refilled for propellants on the Moon, but might also bring Oxygen to LEO from the Moon. The Stokes machine would of course use Hydrogen for its fuel. That could be gotten on the Moon and also in LEO from Starship. Oxygen I hope would be mined from the Moon.

I do like the Stokes Heat Shield, but don't know if it could hack it. Also, I think there could be a better one for bulk transportation of Oxygen to LEO. You still might want the Stokes based device for transport, but I want to consider again, a high altitude pass through radiative heat shield method.

Pause for diagram..............

OK this is a side cut-away view(s):

The version on the right is inspired by: https://www.dickssportinggoods.com/f/shuttlecocks

https://www.dickssportinggoods.com/f/shuttlecocks
Image Quote: ?wid=252&hei=252&qlt=85,0&fmt=jpg&op_sharpen=1

I know how navigation would be done through the atmosphere by the Capsule version.

I don't know how to navigate the shuttlecock version, yet.

I feel that technology related to SpaceX Stainless Steel might be a nice start.

Of course what I am trying to do is make the Shuttlecock into a braking sail with expanded surface area, and also the ability to radiate red hot heat from its leeward side into space during heating of atmospheric passage.

Reenforced Stainless Sheeting for Sail materials may work OK as it can take some heat.

Melting point of Stainless Steel: https://www.theworldmaterial.com/meltin … ess-steel/
Image Quote:

Granted, you would not want to push it that far. But if your intention is to skip off of the atmosphere with the device, in order to get the payload into some approximation of LEO, it might work out.

Of course, unless the sails would be manufactured on the Moon or from Moon materials in a "L" location, you would have to send the sail back to get another oxygen load from the Moon. That would take a propulsion method. Perhaps an Oxygen Mass Driver method might be considered? Or Argon Electric, as you could possibly also bring Argon from the Moon to approximately LEO.

The actual structure of the "Sail-Aerocapture" device could certainly be open to other versions of course. The Shuttlecock is just a starter.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-04-21 19:43:23)

New Mars Forums

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#951 2023-04-06 09:06:40

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#952 2023-04-07 10:37:34

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#953 2023-04-11 17:42:57

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#954 2023-04-11 18:17:48

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#955 2023-04-11 19:06:05

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#956 2023-04-12 10:50:57

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#957 2023-04-12 16:06:03

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#958 2023-04-13 19:03:56

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#959 2023-04-14 09:42:50

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#960 2023-04-14 11:48:09

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#961 2023-04-14 19:19:59

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#962 2023-04-15 08:48:08

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#963 2023-04-15 09:02:56

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#964 2023-04-15 10:35:25

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#965 2023-04-16 10:04:13

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#966 2023-04-16 11:43:56

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#967 2023-04-16 17:30:43

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#968 2023-04-18 19:57:43

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#969 2023-04-19 08:49:39

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#970 2023-04-19 10:06:09

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#971 2023-04-19 10:48:32

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#972 2023-04-19 11:22:31

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#973 2023-04-19 19:07:30

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#974 2023-04-20 19:19:43

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#975 2023-04-21 19:11:40

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

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