Water in the Valles Marineris: The Grand Canyon of Mars

Void · 2021-12-15 19:34:46

Well, water in the great canyon on Mars, it seems likely.

https://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration … 20as%20ice.
Quote:

ExoMars discovers hidden water in Mars’ Grand Canyon

I have to study this more. I will also post this under the section on water for other members to also comment if they might wish.

https://science.nasa.gov/valles-mariner … anyon-mars

Done

SpaceNut · 2021-12-15 20:10:07

ExoMars_Trace_Gas_Orbiter_maps_water-rich_region_of_Valles_Marineris_pillars.jpg

A little more googling and I find that Nasa had eyes on this back in Jul 7, 2016 Mars Canyons Study Adds Clues about Possible Water

sure it looks smooth but is it possible to land in this very tight area.

pia20756-main_vm_rsl.jpg?itok=a1wdFJc2

SpaceNut · 2021-12-15 20:17:37

ExoMars Trace Gas Orbiter TGO

tahanson43206 wrote:

SpaceNut ... I looked for this orbiter but did not find it...
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … hp&pc=U531
Who's up for an adventure? You just need to catch a crewed spacecraft to Mars, land near a massive canyon there and go in search of hidden water. The ExoMars Trace Gas Orbiter (TGO) spacecraft has found evidence of "significant amounts of water" in the Valles Marineris canyon system on the red planet.
TGO is operated by the European Space Agency and Russian space agency Roscosmos. The orbiter has an instrument on board that maps hydrogen in the upper layer of Martian soil. Data shows an unusual amount of hydrogen in Candor Chaos, a central region of Valles Marineris, indicating that as much as 40% of the near-surface material in that area could be water.
"With TGO we can look down to one meter below this dusty layer and see what's really going on below Mars' surface -- and, crucially, locate water-rich 'oases' that couldn't be detected with previous instruments," Igor Mitrofanov of the Space Research Institute of the Russian Academy of Sciences said in an ESA statement on Wednesday. Mitrofanov is lead author of a study on the water findings published in the journal Icarus.
Looks like a good place for a Lander Drill probe.
(th)

SpaceNut · 2021-12-21 18:42:59

Key items from Voids link

Nuetron detection is being used.

The Valles Marineris is a 2,500-mile-long canyon on Mars with parts that are 4 miles deep. Not only is it 10 times longer and 4 times deeper than the Grand Canyon, but the Valles Marineris' length is nearly as long as the entire United States.

We will be hard pressed to come up with a means to create a cover to allow for a gradual pressure build up

"We can look down to (3 feet) below this dusty layer and see what’s really going on below Mars’ surface – and, crucially, locate water-rich ‘oases’ that couldn’t be detected with previous instruments," Mitrofanov said. "Assuming the hydrogen we see is bound into water molecules, as much as 40% of the near-surface material in this region appears to be water."
Scientists are unsure whether the detected water is ice or water bound to the soil, but Alexey said it's most likely in ice form, similar to the permafrost found throughout the Arctic region. Håkan Svedhem, co-author and former project scientist for the ExoMars Trace Gas Orbiter, said the team must now discover what type of water is in the soil.

sum's it up that ground proof is needed

Mars_B4_Moon · 2021-12-21 19:48:22

On Elon Musk
Musk said, ‘I’ll be surprised if we’re not landing on Mars within five years Musk
https://spacexmania.com/1/archives/1389

SpaceNut wrote:

Key items from Voids link
Nuetron detection is being used.

I've seen other news Articles also say it can look 3 feet deep or 1 meter

Some articles on European (ESA) and the Russian Roscosmos satellite instruments
Space dot com
https://www.space.com/32250-exomars-mar … ience.html
'The Russian-built FREND (Fine Resolution Epithermal Neutron Detector) will indirectly look forwater-ice deposits up to 3.3 feet (1 meter) below Mars’ surface.
Since Mars has such a thin atmosphere, the planet's surface is constantly bombarded with harsh cosmic rays that break apart atoms. This reaction releases high-energy neutrons that are then captured by the elements in the surrounding Martian dirt or released back into the atmosphere.'
https://spaceflight101.com/exomars/trac … struments/
FREND, developed at the Space Research Institute (IKI) in Russia, is responsible for the detection of subsurface hydrogen to a depth of one meter to uncover water-ice deposits near the surface. Measurements of subsurface water and OH by FREND will be ten times better than previous missions.

Old thread with a discussion of sub surface waters and manned landings
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=1787
'Where exactly is Mars Direct with NASA? - Are they going to do it or not?'

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2021-12-21 20:08:04)

Void · 2023-03-16 11:24:02

A indication of past and possibly present water ice in part of the canyon system nearer the Tharsis Uplift area.
https://phys.org/news/2023-03-modern-gl … r-ice.html
Quote:

Modern glacier remains found near Mars equator suggest water ice possibly present today at low latitudes
by SETI Institute

Image Quote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noctis_Labyrinthus
Image Quote:

Their story of Sulfate Salts is interesting. It is implied that the salts may protect the ice from evaporating.

And of course since it is me, there will be speculation. I anticipate that some Perchlorate salts may be included.

Query: "Freezing point of Martian Perchlorate brines"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Freezing+ … a213f2dd0d

OK, I certainly can be dead wrong, but...........

I have wondered if ice slabs under dirt could actually form there over long periods of time, by a absorption of water vapor into salts, and then a dip in temperature that squeezes less salty fluids out of the hydrated salts.

This would have to work different than the ice packs of our Arctic Ocean. In that case the salt ice freezing can reject salt into brine which flows downward into the ocean.

For what I have suggested, the salt would need to stay on top and the less salty brine flow below, and then freeze to an existing ice mass.

Unlike the Arctic Ocean, the air in the soil above a salt layer would be dry, so you would not have salt ice, but salty hydrated crust, and possibly with temperature fluctuations, the salts being solid crystals, and the brine being fluid, then it might happen that somehow what I have suggested could happen.

I have wondered about electrical ground currents as possible to have some thermal effects in this as well.

The other alternative so far is that Mars gets snowy and icy at times, periodically. And of course, that is the more acceptable and safe notion to speak of.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-03-16 11:41:43)

Void · 2023-03-18 12:43:21

This fits in here: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 74#p207774

Possible water ice in a canyon system between the rift valley and the Tharsis Uplift.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-03-18 12:44:06)

RGClark · 2023-03-18 13:39:29

Thanks for that. This region of Noctis Labyrinthus had frequently shown low lying fogs in orbital imaging that led to speculation of liquid water on Mars in the region.

Bob Clark

SpaceNut · 2023-03-18 14:47:14

Did anyone check the spectrum of that fog as it could be Co2?

RGClark · 2023-03-18 18:03:08

This NASA page discusses clouds and fogs on Mars seen since Viking. Some low lying fogs are believed composed of water ice.

https://history.nasa.gov/SP-441/ch12.htm

Robert Clark

Void · 2023-03-18 19:37:07

Here are some additional reading materials:

Fogs: https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2016E … L/abstract
Quote:

Therefore, the only way to produce fog inside the canyon is to have a local water source.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerberus_ … on%20Earth.
Quote:

Crater counts suggest this last outflow from the Cerberus Fossae took place about 2 to 10 million years ago. Later even younger (0.05-0.2 million years from present) volcanic deposit was detected, suggesting volcanic activity may be still ongoing.[8]

https://astrobiology.nasa.gov/news/wate … after-all/
Quote:

But when Mars Global Surveyor began mapping the Red Planet in sharp detail early in 1999, it disclosed startling evidence that water has shaped Martian landforms within the past 10 million years.
The discovery challenges the prevailing view that Mars’ surface has remained extremely cold and dry – much as it is today – for the past 3.9 billion years.
It confirms the idea that internal heat periodically triggers short-term warmer and wetter conditions – conditions conducive to life – in the global Martian hydrological cycle, University of Arizona Regents’ Professor Victor R. Baker said in a review article, “Water and the Martian landscape,” published in the July 12 issue of the journal Nature. Baker is head of the UA department of hydrology and water resources.
Mars is cold, dry and quiet for long periods of the hydrological cycle, periods spanning hundreds of millions of years, Baker says. It becomes actively warmer and wetter during brief episodes that last perhaps thousands to tens of thousands of years.

https://www.space.com/mars-water-below- … ris-canyon
Quote:

https://www.space.com/mars-water-below- … ris-canyon

And now we have this new discovery which may also include some sort of water ice, maybe a glacier:
https://www.news9live.com/science/disco … is%20today.
Image Quote: Interpretation-of-the-Relict-Glaciers-features-Lee-et-al-2023.jpg

The source of the fogs could be from outside the canyon system through the air, but I think that is not thought to be true.

So, if may originate somehow in the canyon system.

I have 3 notions.
1) Very ancient relic ice deeply buried, from before the Martian atmosphere collapsed billions of years ago.
2a) Vapor seeps from the sandstone layers in the sides of the canyons, perhaps from frozen aquifers.
2b) Liquid Water seeping up though cracks like a water eruption from a very deep aquifer.
3) Periodic Climate Deviations.

For the moment I would like to entertain #3. If an eruption happened in the last 10 million years, it might have pushed greenhouse gasses out, and warmed Mars for a while. High Ice clouds could have then warmed the planet, The Dry Ice of the poles evaporated, and it was possible for the poles to be warm enough to cause the atmosphere to be moist enough for snows. With the right wind patterns, then snow could have fallen to make the ice slabs in the mid latitudes and also maybe even it would also snow in the Rift Valley system. I would imagine it would depend on the wind patterns.

But maybe 1, 2a, and/or 2b might be true, maybe all of them are true or none of them are true and we need new ideas.

But if we can figure it out we may better figure out how to settle Mars and how to terraform it.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-03-18 19:53:40)

Void · 2023-03-19 10:49:27

This site is quiet at this time. I thought I might trot out some materials I have collected about water on Mars.
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 15#p204715

To spare the reader, they can research what they like about it. At the bottom of that linked post is some materials about vast amounts of fossil ice at the bottom of the Rift Valley system near the equator of Mars.

Looking at item #1 from the just previous post;
Here that is:

The idea of Fossil Ice in the rift valley:
https://planetarygeomorphology.wordpres … eris-mars/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 5X13004145
https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/O … dc3481cd74
This is very amusing at this point, they deminitely speak against glaciation in Candor Chaos: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 3517308333
But then we get to this: https://www.cnet.com/science/spacecraft … be%20water.
And this: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne … 180979267/

Here is an image Quote: valles-marineris-pillars.jpg?auto=webp&fit=crop&height=675&width=1200

It shows the fogs which it seems to be thought need water local to the canyon system to exist.

The idea of a massive fossil ice deposit billions of years old is not popular at all, but now we have notions that a salt layer above a glacier can help protect it from evaporation. And we seem to have a very strong Hydrogen signal in the Candor Chaos area, and also now the possibility of a glacier covered in salts, in the Noctes Labyrinth area.

https://phys.org/news/2023-03-modern-gl … r-ice.html

I have learned that there can be "Wet Based Glaciation", so it may not be impossible that ground ice is fed from aquifers also. We would call it cryovolcanic on Ceres or Pluto, but somehow, we cannot bring forth that word for Mars.

I would think that the fog patterns may tell a story. If the fogs come from salty buried ice, then that may emerge in some places such as Candor Chaos, but not in other low places. You can see in the picture above, just being low does not guarantee a fog presence.

I am not making a claim, I am just showing information which may be evidence of truth. Or maybe it is not. I claim not much.

Repetitions of fog patterns may indicate a source.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-03-19 11:07:01)

Calliban · 2023-03-21 01:31:13

Angry astronaut video on the discovery of a buried glacier in Noctus Labarinthus.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6NUdavDwHEc

Whilst the ice discovery is exciting, the author seems to miss the big problem with putting a Martian base in that location. It is at the bottom of a 6km deep canyon. Exploring the rest of the planet means climbing up out of the canyon. Any resources that we find anywhere else would have to transported into the canyon to our base. Logistically, this is one of the least convenient places we could build a base. Ideally, we want flat land. As the base expands, we can build railways and pipelines, allowing distant resources to be channelled into our growing base. Cerberus Fossae appears to be an ideal location. It has geothermal heat that can be tapped for agriculture and very likey, liquid ground water.

Void · 2023-03-21 09:24:28

I think that that question is very important.

I have recently been concerned that many places on Mars are too "Flooded" with ice, hiding the mineral resources. If a small but reliable water source close to minerals could be found, at a low latitude, I feel that that could be ideal. Less rugged would be desirable as well.

So, we would want sufficient but not excessive amounts of water near ore resources. I also am in favor of CO & O2 powered robotic hoppers, to get small amounts of a substance to where it is needed.

Ore Resources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ore_resources_on_Mars
This may be worth considering:

Dark sand dunes are common on the surface of Mars. Their dark tone is due to the volcanic rock called basalt. The basalt dunes are believed to contain the minerals chromite, magnetite, and ilmenite.[54] Since the wind has gathered them together, they do not even have to be mined, merely scooped up.[55] These minerals could supply future colonists with chromium, iron, and titanium.

From what I have read some of these tend to be at least slightly magnetic, so then a first beneficiation may be possible with the use of magnetism.

I think that Iron and Chromium are important. The Chromium seems to be bonded to some iron and that is also magnetic.

Last edited by Void (2023-03-21 09:29:49)

RGClark · 2023-04-04 08:54:16

I’ve long been a fan of Noctis Labyrinthus as a location of a Mars lander:

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 30#p140130

Bob Clark

Last edited by RGClark (2023-04-04 08:57:47)

Void · 2023-04-04 11:22:14

That is a good sign then Bob Clark. More than one speculator(s) speculating on it helps to justify further consideration of it.

Because SpaceX and Relativity Space seem to be the apparent makers of potential flight hardware to get humans to Mars eventually, for now, at least, missions modeled on those capabilities seem sensible to me. Possibly electric rockets will also emerge more, but that would be a best case for those.

The last set notion has Robotic Starships going to mid-latitudes, and so then to access giant ice slabs.

My feeling is that at this point it would be very useful if an early one way robotic starship could drop off a bunch of probes to seek more evidence for smaller ice deposits near the Equator, and where large ships may be able to land.

If Hohmann transfer were used, this may take too long as those have the timing cycles.

I would support a "Naked" Ship with probes mounted on its outside to travel to Mars by way of Ballistic Capture.
The ship then does not require landing propellants, legs, or heat shield. The probes mounted on it's outside will receive a bit of sterilization in the transit. At least sterilizing the exterior of the probes. It does not hurt to make at least the easy efforts not to contaminate Mars yet.

The probes perhaps could be simplified as they may have ablative heat shields, and perhaps be somewhat based on probes otherwise already sent.

The primary mission of the probes would be to confirm water.

The Starship itself staying in orbit should have water detecting hardware, I suppose radar(s) of several kinds.

If life detection methods were used, then I would favor the attempt to stimulate growth with Hydrogen, Methane, CO, and Oxygen gasses.

For instance if you inserted an upside down "Cup" into the ground and presented those gasses in some test quantities to the interior, of the cup to impinge on the soil, would evidence of metabolism be evident?

I think that air eating microbes would be the most likely near surface life on Mars. For such Earth life -20 C is the minimum that Metabolism would be expected for. The addition of Hydrogen with Oxygen then provides energy and water. Liquid water can exist in living things under those conditions apparently, as it is the UV that is the actual problem for Lichens in tests by the Germans.

https://phys.org/news/2014-01-lichen-mars.html
At the banana belt of Mars, where fogs occur, best chances for life, I think and the day night cycle will bring water to Lichens and microbes in somewhat protected areas. Those experiments worked with life that needs photosynthesis. If you look for life that lives on gasses in the atmosphere, that life can be sheltered in sandstone or under thin rocks or even under a duricrust. Of course, cracks in rocks as well.

Having stated that I think that it would be prudent to do at least some minimal testing for life, I would not subscribe to allowing a certain portion of the Scientific Community to be exploited by certain political entities, trying to scupper the attempts to seek Mars as a new home for humans. If life indications were found then of course you have to restart your evaluations of what comes next though.

You have to keep in mind that there are some of some of the ruling classes who simply see the inferiors as livestock to exploit, and for them humans who are somewhat out of their reach is not attractive.

So, I am for prudent research, but don't care to pander to the people farmers.

Sorry if I have given too much verbage.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-04-04 11:50:19)

Calliban · 2023-04-04 13:37:38

Any water near the surface is likely to be a hyper saturated brine. The chances of finding living things within it are slim at best. We know that the Martian atmosphere contains about 0.1% CO. Perchlorate solution is a potent oxidiser. Maybe Martian bacteria evolved a way of metabolising the thin gruel of CO in the atmosphere with perchlorate ions. They could also gain energy by increasing the oxidation state of iron from (II) to (III). We know the Martian surface is basalt rich and basalt contains magnesite.

Whether it is living or not, liquid water is a valuable resource. It would take at least 0.5MJ, to heat Martian ice from -60°C to 0°C, melt it and then heat the water to 10°C. If we can find brine that is already liquid, then we can save about two-thirds of that energy, even if its temperature is -50°C. It is latent heat of fusion that costs the most energy. Those hydrogen bonds are difficult and energy intensive to break. It would take at least 23KJ to pump a litre of water up the side of Mariner valley. But ultimately, we still save energy if we find liquid water even if we must pump it out of that deep scar in the Martian crust. So the Mariner valley could be a good place for a water harvesting outpost, even if it is less than optimal as a location for our primary base. My guess is that the first choice for a base will be an area rich in geothermal heat. We need an abundant source of low grade heat for Martian agriculture. The heating energy requirements of a surface greenhouse will be extremely high. It would be like trying to grow vegetables in the high Arctic. Iceland uses geothermal heat to do this. I think we would look to do the same thing on Mars. We will probably have nuclear waste heat as well. But a native source of hot water that can be pumped out of the ground is something we can use to expand agricultural output rapidly, without importing the energy source from Earth.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-04-04 13:43:30)

Void · 2023-04-04 19:01:04

That is all true.

However the German experiments allowed that Lichens they tested and Cyanobacteria, can do OK in the cracks in rocks or even cracks in soil.
They allowed that the crack attenuated the UV light enough for positive growth. The ability to repair was greater than the continuing level of damage. I will not dispute that. It seems sensible.

A thing that is not spoken of too much is that Lichen can pull water from the air at between 70%RH and 100%RH. The night fogs of Mars can achieve that level of humidity. And the fogs in the canyon system are encouraging.

However, I think that there can be something else. If the rocks around the crack cool off at night, and then the very early morning air warms up, I would anticipate the migration of moisture into the crack(s) in the rocks. Lichen can do very well under a thin layer of snow as they can draw the moisture into themselves. So, I offer that that could as well be why the Lichens in the test device did OK in cracks in rock or soil. Water is life quite often.

A further question I have about Lichen and other organisms is can they eat CO and H2? In the case of H2, the organism gets energy and also waters itself. This has been observed in Antarctica with microbes. It is not tested yet if Lichen can do it.

Here is a reference to it: https://newatlas.com/biology/air-eating … ica-artic/
Quote:

In 2017, the UNSW researchers discovered bacteria in Antarctica that gained their energy from a new source – the air itself. In low-nutrient soil, these bugs instead pull hydrogen, carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide out of the air around them, allowing them to thrive in environments where there’s very little other life. This phenomenon is known as atmospheric chemosynthesis.

My understanding is that Cyanobacteria buried out of sunlight can live on chemicals in the soil.

I did not find support for that but I did read about it.

This however does indicate how resourceful it is to use red light if needed: https://beta.nsf.gov/news/scientists-di … thrive-low

Lichens may have Algae or Cyanobacteria in them.

This article may support the idea that life was capable of living off chemicals before Photosynthesis, at least that is my opinion: https://www.udel.edu/udaily/2022/june/g … %20mediums.

We know that microbes can eat Hydrogen, CO, CO2, CH4, and of course Oxygen. They may as you have suggested be able to use other sources of Oxygen such as perchlorates or perhaps Hydrogen Peroxide, which may snow out during dust storms, it is thought.

Although I don't believe that the German experiment would have intentionally provided CO and Hydrogen, there may have been some.

In any case I think the experiment should be done again with the inclusion of edible gasses for the test subjects, Lichen and Cyanobacteria.
So, actually Fungi, Algae/Cyanobacteria, and free living Cyanobacteria.

I suspect that there are chances that these microbes may be able to use it. If not, it is possible that a Martian analog may do so.

One other factor about the German experiments is that they did not appear to simulate the dust of Mars.

The dust could be a hazard to Photosynthesis. However, if the life living in a crack were to live on chemicals, that might not matter, and the dust may be protective. It is likely to be permeable to water vapor and "Food" gases.

Depending on the nature of a crack, it is possible that the interior filled with dust will tend to reject excess salt. If in the water cycle, a cold condensate forms, and then refreezes, that would produce a rejection action such as occurs with the Arctic ice pack.

Brine Rejection:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brine_rej … irculation.

My understanding is that for Lichen and other organisms I have read about, Metabolism if possible, at or above -20 degrees C.

So, lets say it gets up to -10 in the crack at times in the equator areas. The vapor pressure would be: 2.8208 mbar.

http://endmemo.com/chem/vaporpressurewater.php

I believe that the atmospheric pressure in the canyon system can get up to 9 mbar in the low areas.

So, I see a chance for life, and I think that an intentional transplant of Earth life could do OK. Maybe.

That last sentence can Horrify some Science People I suppose.

The thing is if Earth and Mars were much more Hydrogen dominated as is suspected now in their early days, they could have swapped spit quite a bit and traded life. The UV flux would not matter. The Hydrogen would keep both planets warm it is now thought.

So, yes of course I want to know if we have cousins on Mars. I think we may be able to do that with some care. In reality it will likely be relatively easy to avoid contaminating Mars with life that can live in such an ecosystem, at least for a while. Just don't have your probes take a dust bath in a cold desert.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-04-04 19:35:47)

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Water in the Valles Marineris: The Grand Canyon of Mars

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