Imperical ISS data for Mars Mission

SpaceNut · 2015-04-12 19:33:54

I agree that this is a part of the solution:

RobertDyck wrote:

I still say the argument about food is overblown. Here's one food they could use in space. Camping supplies.
http://www.mountainhouse.com/M/product/53114.html
Instructions wrote:
1. Open package at tear notch. Remove and discard oxygen absorber from pouch.
2. Carefully add 2 cups (16 oz) boiling water to pouch.
3. Stir thoroughly and close zipper. Let stand 8-9 minutes. Stir and serve. For your convenience, eat right out of the pouch.
Freeze dried, shipping weight 0.46 pounds, net weight 4.30 Oz (122g). Each package is considered 2.5 servings, where a serving is 1 cup. 210 calories per serving. This one is beef stew, but they've got a whole menu of meals: entrees, breakfast, sides, dessert.
Their statement on Shelf life
Pouches — 12-Year Shelf Life *Mountain House Pouch
Based on our ongoing sensory and nutrition testing of actual Mountain House products, in 2014 the shelf life was increased by an impressive 20%, from 10+ years to 12+ years! We add the "+" to let our consumers know that our food will taste virtually indistinguishable from new for at least 12 years and probably much longer than that! We've tasted pouches that were 30 years old and the food was still quite tasty!
Remember that we recommend storing your pouches unopened and avoid prolonged exposure to temperatures above 75° (24°C) to maximize shelf life.
Worried about pouring boiling water into a pouch? Skylab and Shuttle did it, with a sealed pouch that had a plastic tube that could be "plugged into" a hot water dispenser. From NASA's website: Food For Space Flight
(This is getting away from 1960s plans for Mars, but this NASA web page was last updated April 7, 2002.)
Shuttle Galley
The Shuttle galley was redesigned in 1991 to reduce the weight and volume and to update the electronics. The redesigned galley weighs one-third less and occupies one-half the volume of the original galley. The new galley delivers hot or cold water from the rehydration station. The hot water temperature is between 155 and 165deg.F. The hot and cold dispense quantities can be selected in one-half ounce increments up to 8 ounces.
The forced air convection oven heats food and beverages by conduction with a hot plate or by forced convection. The temperature of the oven is maintained at 160 to 170deg.F. The oven holds 14 rehydratable packages plus thermostabilized pouches and beverages.
Space Station Food System
Space Station will become operational on a full time basis with a crew of 4. Later, the crew size will grow to a maximum of 8 people. The crew will reside in the Habitation Module (HAB). Food and other supplies will be resupplied every 90 days by exchanging the Pressurized Logistics Module (PLM).
The food system for SS will be considerably different from the Shuttle food system. Since the electrical power for SS will be from solar panels, there is no extra water generated onboard. Water will be recycled from the cabin air, but that will not be enough for use in the food system. Most of the food planned for SS will be frozen, refrigerated, or thermostabilized and will not require the addition of water before consumption. Many of the beverages will be in the dehydrated form. Food will be heated to serving temperature in a microwave/forced air convection oven. One oven will be supplied for each group of 4 astronauts.
The SS food system consists of 3 different supplies of food; Daily Menu, Safe Haven, and Extra Vehicular Activity (EVA) food.

RobertDyck · 2015-04-13 06:55:59

Long ago the food industry discovered that packaging must be impermeable to moisture and oxygen. Some packaging uses aluminized plastic, some uses aluminum lined paper. Glass mason jars use a rubber seal around the lid. Steel cans are obviously air and water tight.

Canning food was first invented as a means to preserve food for the military, for Napoleon's army. They used champagne bottles. They had difficulty getting peas and other food through the neck of the bottle. Seriously, that's what they did. Then they invented mason jars; it was a lot easier to get food in. Then tin cans. Then the tin was replaced by steel. My point is canning works by boiling food for a certain number of minutes to kill bacteria and any other organisms. Simmering is the same temperature as boiling, so you bring stew or soup or vegetables in water to a boil, then simmer for a prescribed number of minutes. In the 1980s, someone realized this doesn't require metal can. They used the same canning technique, but packaged in plastic bags. Food in a plastic bag will last as long as food in a metal can. The catch is you have to use a plastic that can withstand the temperature of boiling water, and must be impermeable to oxygen and moisture. Saran is great for cling wrap, but partially melts and will shrivel in boiling water. Other plastics are impermeable to oxygen and/or moisture. Blister packs for pills often use multiple layers of plastic, one layer is Aclar, a brand name for PCTFE. It's expensive plastic, but you only require a very thin layer to be impermeable to moisture. Strength of the plastic comes from a heavier layer of a less expensive plastic.

The media recently ranted about garbage from "K" cups for coffee. Those cups have multiple layers. One layer is aluminum, used to keep moisture and oxygen out of the coffee, so the coffee ground remain fresh. The media ranted because the layers cannot be easily separated for recycling. But again, notice the aluminum layer.

So what is NASA using for their food packaging? Are they using something that feels heavy, but isn't impermeable to moisture or oxygen? That would explain their problem with shelf life.

GW Johnson · 2015-04-13 09:17:32

See also my reply today in the "historical Mars flyby CSM" thread. This camp food technology is what we need, for sure.

I'd add artificial gravity to the transit ship, so that conventional free-surface water cooking makes conventional fresh/frozen food possible. Keep the camp food for the periods of no gravity during maneuvers, and for the rover forays on the surface.

Just a thought.

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2015-04-13 11:39:45)

SpaceNut · 2015-04-19 21:25:28

The accuracy of data available has been hard to get but as of Mar 2015 there have been 7 onboard the station and in Nov 2014 there were 6 of course whenever there is a crew exchange the count swells before receding..this can be up to 10 or so days that the systems onboard are put to there limits quite possibly but without better number how can we justify only using the systems that we have.

SpaceNut · 2015-07-03 18:45:13

RobertDyck wrote:

Progress Cargo Craft Launches to Space Station, Safely in Orbit; Docking Sunday
Progress M-28M Cargo Manifest
The manifest is a table, with two tones to show summary vs detail. It's easier to read. But I'll quote the text anyway...
Refueling Propellant for Transfer to ISS Tanks 520kg
Pressurized Oxygen for ISS Repressurization 26kg
Pressurized Air for ISS Repressurization 22kg
Water inside Rodnik Tank 420kg
Total Dry Cargo Mass 1,393kg
Atmospheric Maintenance System (gas analysis equipment, dust filters etc.) 12kg
Water System Components (purification columns, filter, hoses, etc.) 38kg
Sanitary & Hygiene Equipment (Russian Toilet Replaceable Parts, solid waste containers, water dispenser, wipes, etc.) 273kg
Medical Supplies (medical aid kits, medical monitoring system, crew clothing, cleaning supplies, countermeasures, etc.) 137kg
Food Provisions (food containers, fresh food, etc.) 430kg
Thermal Control System (fan replacement, etc.) 10kg
Onboard control system (Hard Drives, Cables, BSK-25B Switching Unit, etc.) 6kg
Maintenance supplies (cargo bags, liners, window cleaning materials, etc.) 30kg
Crew Support (flight data files,care packages for the crew, video & still cameras, etc.) 44kg
Antenna Feeders and Installation Equipment 3kg
Science Payloads (Microbial Control, MORZE, Regeneration, Aseptik, Kaskad, Test, Biodegradation, etc.) 21kg
Electrical Power System Components (block 800A battery, converter/regulator, etc.) 105kg
Onboard Telemetry Network System Hardware (Cable) 1kg
Internal Module Outfitting Hardware (struts, handrails, hardware for MRM2, etc.) 3kg
Zarya Module Equipment (Fire Extinguishers, Misc. Hardware) 39kg
American Cargo for Russian Crew (food, clothing, hygiene items, crew preference items) 186kg
American Cargo for USOS Crew (Food, Waste Disposal System Components, Hygiene Equipment, ESA Hardware) 55kg
Total Cargo Upmass 2,381kg

Thank you for that post:

SpaceNut · 2015-10-13 21:26:31

rom http://spirit.as.utexas.edu/~fiso/telec … -22-13.pdf

Average Human Metabolic Balance (lb/person-day)
•Oxygen 1.84
•Water 7.77
Drink 3.56
In food 2.54
Food Prep 1.67
•Food Solids 1.36
Oxygen 0.44
Hydrogen 0.08
Carbon 0.60
Other 0.24
•Total In 10.97
•Carbon Dioxide 2.20
•Water 8.53
Urine 3.31
Sweat & respiration 5.02
Feces 0.20
•Solids 0.24
In urine 0.13
In sweat 0.04
In feces 0.07
•Total Out 10.97

SpaceNut · 2015-10-18 21:29:14

It would seem that Cygnus is about to go back into seric and that bodes well or the crew o the ISS.

Cygnus Cargo Craft Comes Together for Space Station ‘Return to Flight’ Blastoff in December

The biggest and heaviest Cygnus commercial cargo craft ever built by Orbital ATK is coming together at the Kennedy Space Center as the launch pace picks up steam for its critical ‘Return to Flight’ resupply mission to the space station for NASA. “We have an obligation to our NASA customer and most importantly the crews aboard the International Space Station (ISS).”
The ‘Return to Flight’ mission, dubbed OA-4, fulfills Orbital ATK’s commitment to “meet our cargo requirements to NASA under the Commercial Resupply Services (CRS) contract” following the catastrophic launch failure of the firms Antares/Cygnus Orb-3 resupply mission to the space station moments after liftoff one year ago from Wallops Island, Virginia on October 28, 2014.
In order to get the Cygnus logistics spacecraft back into service for NASA as quick as possible, Orbital switched rockets and the vessel will be carried to orbit for the first time by a United Launch Alliance Atlas V rocket – now slated for liftoff on December 3, 2015 from Space Launch Complex 41 at Cape Canaveral Air Force Station in Florida at approximately 6 pm. ET.
“We are taking advantage of the increased lift capability of the Atlas V. So with the enhanced Cygnus we are able to go from 2700 kg [with Antares] to 3500 kg of cargo [with Atlas V].”
SM has also been upgraded with the lightweight UltraFlex solar panels flying for the first time on the OS-4 mission. It propels the combined Cygnus vehicle to berth at the ISS.
“The enhanced Cygnus PCM is 1.2 meters longer, so it’s about 1/3 longer,” The cargo missions stock the station with all manner of equipment, science experiments, food, clothing spare parts and gear for the international crews of six astronauts and cosmonauts.

SpaceNut · 2016-03-06 20:26:30

kbd512 wrote:

ISS maximum food storage volume and mass allowances per person per day:
6570 cubic centimeters -> 3.285 cubic meters per person for 500 days
2.38 kg -> 1190 kg per person for 500 days (I think we can get this down to 1000kg with improved packaging and high energy breakfast bars)
Edit: According to this NASA Sustaining Life article, 915kg of food is required for 500 days, so our food and water are roughly 1290kg of our 1500kg payload.
3.285 m3 - Astronaut Rations
.375m3 - 3m L x 2.5m W x .05m H - 375L (for fresh and grey water tanks and SPE protection - astronauts hide in a ditch under their rover and attach power/air/water umbilicals to the rover)
.06627 m3 - 4 MOXIE oxygen generators (I really need the mass for MOXIE, anyone have it?)
# m3 - 2 CL-ECLSS (anybody know what type of ECLSS is required for a 2m x 5m inflatable cylinder with a 1m x 2m airlock attached to it?)
I don't know what volumes and masses are required for tools or life support, but it's probably a safe bet that the base unit can be shorter or narrower than my stated dimensions because we're only up to 3.74 m3 and have 1.26m3 worth of volume remaining. If we have substantial volume remaining after the ECLSS and water generator hardware have been accounted for, then we can shrink the base unit height to reduce volume and weight.

SpaceNut · 2017-11-12 19:34:04

Like clock work another shipment of goods have been sent on there way on the newly upgraded Orbital ATK Antares rocket. 139-foot-tall booster Antares 230 with a first stage sporting Russian-built RD-181 engines

Antares rocket boosts cargo ship to orbit

Three-and-a-half minutes after liftoff, at an altitude of nearly 62 miles, the first stage engines shut down and the stage fell away. About 40 seconds later, the rocket's solid-fuel second stage ignited for a two-minute, 43-second burn to complete the climb to orbit. The Cygnus cargo ship was released to fly on its own about two minutes after that.
Loaded with nearly 7,400 pounds of equipment and supplies, the spacecraft is expected to reach the station early Tuesday, pulling up to within about 30 feet of the lab complex and then standing by while Italian astronaut Paolo Nespoli, operating the station's robot arm, locks on to a grapple fixture. The Cygnus launched Sunday was loaded with 2,734 pounds of crew supplies, 1,631 pounds of science gear and supplies, 1,875 pounds of space station hardware, 281 pounds of spacewalk equipment and 75 pounds of computer gear.

kbd512 · 2017-11-13 16:41:08

When will we start using these things to send people and cargo to Mars?

Dragon V2 hasn't flown. Starliner hasn't flown. Dragon V1 isn't big enough. Orion is too heavy and still not big enough.

ISS modules and Cygnus PCM's are real hardware that are actually in space right now. All indications are that they work quite well.

Are we going to lose another decade or start re-purposing real flight hardware?

How hard could we possibly make this?

SpaceNut · 2017-11-13 17:19:25

The Deep space design is being implemented by Lockheed with the ISS module that was at nasa on the ground but that topic has no clear indication as to when it will fly, or if this rapid prototype process is being used to leverage a better design for space use.

kbd512 · 2017-11-16 20:15:59

Is anyone at Lockheed or Boeing actually interested in going somewhere? I don't know how much longer NASA's level of funding is going to hold. Someone needs to make something fly for the naysayers to believe the agency is still serious about real space exploration.

SpaceNut · 2018-11-21 19:06:30

Here are some more recent numbers for resupply of the ISS
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=5286&p=18

Progress MS-10/71P cargo ship, loaded with 5,654 pounds of equipment and supplies, closes in on the International Space Station Sunday in the final stages of a problem-free two-day rendezvous.

1,653 pounds of propellant for space station orbital adjustments,
165 pounds of pure oxygen and air,
970 pounds of water and

2,866 pounds of spare parts and equipment.

2,255 pounds of science gear,
64 pounds of spacewalk equipment,
2,183 pounds of space station hardware,
253 pounds of computer gear and

2,605 pounds of crew supplies, including fresh fruit and ice cream.

second and final flight of 2018 upon it, Antares lofted the S.S. John Young Cygnus up to the International Space Station with 3,268 kg (7,205 lb) of pressurized cargo and 82 kg (181 lb) of unpressurized cargo. Cygnus, made in Italy and loaded with 7,400 pounds (3,350 kilograms) of gear, including meals, clothes for the next crew of astronauts, technical equipment and around two dozen scientific experiments.

louis · 2018-11-22 04:04:50

So maybe a maximum of 7 tonnes of supply for an average of something like 4 people for one year?

And the total Space X cargo for Mars will be around 500 tonnes...for let's say 2.5 years.

So let's say the comparison would be 17.5 tonnes for 2.5 years and to compare for 10 people that would be raised to about 44 tonnes. So 44 out of 500 is definitely doable. Of course, the Mars crew will need more of everything because of the nature of a journey to a planet 100 million miles away. So the basic "keep you alive" supplies might be more like 100 tonnes.

SpaceNut wrote:

Here are some more recent numbers for resupply of the ISS
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=5286&p=18
Progress MS-10/71P cargo ship, loaded with 5,654 pounds of equipment and supplies, closes in on the International Space Station Sunday in the final stages of a problem-free two-day rendezvous.
1,653 pounds of propellant for space station orbital adjustments,
165 pounds of pure oxygen and air,
970 pounds of water and
2,866 pounds of spare parts and equipment.
2,255 pounds of science gear,
64 pounds of spacewalk equipment,
2,183 pounds of space station hardware,
253 pounds of computer gear and
2,605 pounds of crew supplies, including fresh fruit and ice cream.
second and final flight of 2018 upon it, Antares lofted the S.S. John Young Cygnus up to the International Space Station with 3,268 kg (7,205 lb) of pressurized cargo and 82 kg (181 lb) of unpressurized cargo. Cygnus, made in Italy and loaded with 7,400 pounds (3,350 kilograms) of gear, including meals, clothes for the next crew of astronauts, technical equipment and around two dozen scientific experiments.

SpaceNut · 2018-11-22 10:34:32

The numbers are misleading for all areas of need for the ISS.

Such as the air and water are supplemental replacement after recycling.

The spare parts and gear are not telling the whole story for wear out and for mission changes for science.

The crew foods are also fresh not packaged as dry for a mars duration of 2.5 plus years, so there is lots of water to these and not the same packaging mass.

This all just a small of required shipping area and when you multiply what you need that needs to also be accounted for.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2021-05-28 05:35:16

What does the future have in store for the International Space Station?
https://www.aerotime.aero/27884-what-fu … ce-station

Abundant harvest in Antarctic greenhouse shows promise for moon agriculture
https://www.space.com/mars-lunar-greenh … ca-harvest

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-01-01 19:51:20

What can the Moon or the ISS or Gateway truly tell of a Manned Mars Station or Mars Biodome or Manned Mars Excursion Module, some argue that more must be tested on the station and on the Moon. It seems the Moon will be an international efforst to make a Moon base and the revised Japanese plan includes landing a Japanese astronaut on the Moon in the latter half of the 2020s. Others wonder about the cost justification of lunar Gateway, what if for example the Chinese were to put major effort in Mars while NASA remained focused on trying to turn the Moon into some kind of base or launch pad or manufacturing plant? Mars could one day have exports and perhaps could be used as a base to ship other low tech products to other colony sites across the solar system for example the asteroids but shipping "commodity stuff" from Mars to Earth does not make any sense economically.

NASA's "sustained" lunar presence.
https://twitter.com/wingod/status/1474254134320582657

ISS Operations Extended To 2030
http://spaceref.com/international-space … -2030.html

NASA updates Artemis I integrated testing schedule
https://www.aerotechnews.com/blog/2021/ … -schedule/

The wiki entry on the Gateway

NASA officials promote the Gateway as a "reusable command module" that could direct activities on the lunar surface. However, the Gateway has received both positive and negative reactions from space professionals.

Formerly known as the Deep Space Gateway (DSG), the station was renamed Lunar Orbital Platform-Gateway (LOP-G) in NASA's 2018 proposal for the 2019 United States federal budget. When the budgeting process was complete, US$332 million had been committed by Congress to preliminary studies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_Gateway
Gateway will be the first modular space station to be both human-rated, and autonomously operating most of the time in its early years, as well as being the first deep-space station, far from low Earth orbit. This will be enabled by more sophisticated executive control software than on any prior space station, which will monitor and control all systems. The high-level architecture is provided by the Robotics and Intelligence for Human Spaceflight lab at NASA, and implemented at NASA facilities. The Gateway could conceivably also support in-situ resource utilization (ISRU) development and testing from lunar and asteroid sources, and would offer the opportunity for gradual buildup of capabilities for more complex missions over time.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-01-01 19:55:30)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-07-29 07:08:09

Congress approves International Space Station extension to 2030

https://www.space.com/congress-approves … -chips-act

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-03-15 13:19:10

Red Dwarf Tomatoes Growing In The ISS Veggie Plant Growth Facility
https://spaceref.com/space-stations/red … -facility/

NASA proposes final extension of ISS cargo contracts
https://spacenews.com/nasa-proposes-fin … contracts/

some other discussions
'Long Term Mars Habitat'
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7496
and
'Long duration Human space missions - Can we survive them?'
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=2188

How to de-orbit your station in a safe manner?

Skylab's orbit eventually decayed, and it disintegrated in the atmosphere in July 1979, scattering debris across the Indian Ocean and Western Australia. They aimed the station at a spot 810 miles (1,300 km) south-southeast of Cape Town, South Africa. The station did not burn up as fast as NASA expected. Debris landed about 300 miles (480 km) east of Perth, Western Australia due to a four-percent calculation error, and was found between Esperance, Western Australia and Rawlinna, from 31° to 34° S and 122° to 126° E, about 130–150 km (81–93 miles) radius around Balladonia, Western Australia. Residents and an airline pilot saw dozens of colorful flares as large pieces broke up in the atmosphere; the debris landed in an almost unpopulated area, but the sightings still caused NASA to fear human injury or property damage.

Kosmos 954 the Russian Soviet nuclear-powered surveillance satellite, crashed in the Northwest Territories it scattered an enormous amount of radioactivity over a 124,000 square kilometre area in Canada's north

NASA's Latest Request for Cash Includes Big Plans for a Deorbiting ISS 'Space Tug'
https://news.yahoo.com/nasas-latest-req … 00365.html

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-03-15 13:39:13)

SpaceNut · 2023-03-15 17:11:08

Most recently with thoughts of sending up deorbit tugs; why not send hat remain

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#26 2015-04-12 19:33:54

Re: Imperical ISS data for Mars Mission

#27 2015-04-13 06:55:59

Re: Imperical ISS data for Mars Mission

#28 2015-04-13 09:17:32

Re: Imperical ISS data for Mars Mission

#29 2015-04-19 21:25:28

Re: Imperical ISS data for Mars Mission

#30 2015-07-03 18:45:13

Re: Imperical ISS data for Mars Mission

#31 2015-10-13 21:26:31

Re: Imperical ISS data for Mars Mission

#32 2015-10-18 21:29:14

Re: Imperical ISS data for Mars Mission

#33 2016-03-06 20:26:30

Re: Imperical ISS data for Mars Mission

#34 2017-11-12 19:34:04

Re: Imperical ISS data for Mars Mission

#35 2017-11-13 16:41:08

Re: Imperical ISS data for Mars Mission

#36 2017-11-13 17:19:25

Re: Imperical ISS data for Mars Mission

#37 2017-11-16 20:15:59

Re: Imperical ISS data for Mars Mission

#38 2018-11-21 19:06:30

Re: Imperical ISS data for Mars Mission

#39 2018-11-22 04:04:50

Re: Imperical ISS data for Mars Mission

#40 2018-11-22 10:34:32

Re: Imperical ISS data for Mars Mission

#41 2021-05-28 05:35:16

Re: Imperical ISS data for Mars Mission

#42 2022-01-01 19:51:20

Re: Imperical ISS data for Mars Mission

#43 2022-07-29 07:08:09

Re: Imperical ISS data for Mars Mission

#44 2023-03-15 13:19:10

Re: Imperical ISS data for Mars Mission

#45 2023-03-15 17:11:08

Re: Imperical ISS data for Mars Mission

Board footer