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#26 2015-04-12 19:33:54

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 10,527

Re: Imperical ISS data for Mars Mission

I agree that this is a part of the solution:

RobertDyck wrote:

I still say the argument about food is overblown. Here's one food they could use in space. Camping supplies.
http://www.mountainhouse.com/M/product/53114.html

Beef%20Stew_4_257x300.jpg

Instructions wrote:

1. Open package at tear notch. Remove and discard oxygen absorber from pouch.
2. Carefully add 2 cups (16 oz) boiling water to pouch.
3. Stir thoroughly and close zipper. Let stand 8-9 minutes. Stir and serve. For your convenience, eat right out of the pouch.

Freeze dried, shipping weight 0.46 pounds, net weight 4.30 Oz (122g). Each package is considered 2.5 servings, where a serving is 1 cup. 210 calories per serving. This one is beef stew, but they've got a whole menu of meals: entrees, breakfast, sides, dessert.

Their statement on Shelf life

Pouches — 12-Year Shelf Life *Mountain House Pouch

Based on our ongoing sensory and nutrition testing of actual Mountain House products, in 2014 the shelf life was increased by an impressive 20%, from 10+ years to 12+ years! We add the "+" to let our consumers know that our food will taste virtually indistinguishable from new for at least 12 years and probably much longer than that! We've tasted pouches that were 30 years old and the food was still quite tasty!

Remember that we recommend storing your pouches unopened and avoid prolonged exposure to temperatures above 75° (24°C) to maximize shelf life.

Worried about pouring boiling water into a pouch? Skylab and Shuttle did it, with a sealed pouch that had a plastic tube that could be "plugged into" a hot water dispenser. From NASA's website: Food For Space Flight
(This is getting away from 1960s plans for Mars, but this NASA web page was last updated April 7, 2002.)

Shuttle Galley

The Shuttle galley was redesigned in 1991 to reduce the weight and volume and to update the electronics. The redesigned galley weighs one-third less and occupies one-half the volume of the original galley. The new galley delivers hot or cold water from the rehydration station. The hot water temperature is between 155 and 165deg.F. The hot and cold dispense quantities can be selected in one-half ounce increments up to 8 ounces.

The forced air convection oven heats food and beverages by conduction with a hot plate or by forced convection. The temperature of the oven is maintained at 160 to 170deg.F. The oven holds 14 rehydratable packages plus thermostabilized pouches and beverages.

Space Station Food System

Space Station will become operational on a full time basis with a crew of 4. Later, the crew size will grow to a maximum of 8 people. The crew will reside in the Habitation Module (HAB). Food and other supplies will be resupplied every 90 days by exchanging the Pressurized Logistics Module (PLM).

The food system for SS will be considerably different from the Shuttle food system. Since the electrical power for SS will be from solar panels, there is no extra water generated onboard. Water will be recycled from the cabin air, but that will not be enough for use in the food system. Most of the food planned for SS will be frozen, refrigerated, or thermostabilized and will not require the addition of water before consumption. Many of the beverages will be in the dehydrated form. Food will be heated to serving temperature in a microwave/forced air convection oven. One oven will be supplied for each group of 4 astronauts.

The SS food system consists of 3 different supplies of food; Daily Menu, Safe Haven, and Extra Vehicular Activity (EVA) food.

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#27 2015-04-13 06:55:59

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 4,993
Website

Re: Imperical ISS data for Mars Mission

Long ago the food industry discovered that packaging must be impermeable to moisture and oxygen. Some packaging uses aluminized plastic, some uses aluminum lined paper. Glass mason jars use a rubber seal around the lid. Steel cans are obviously air and water tight.

Canning food was first invented as a means to preserve food for the military, for Napoleon's army. They used champagne bottles. They had difficulty getting peas and other food through the neck of the bottle. Seriously, that's what they did. Then they invented mason jars; it was a lot easier to get food in. Then tin cans. Then the tin was replaced by steel. My point is canning works by boiling food for a certain number of minutes to kill bacteria and any other organisms. Simmering is the same temperature as boiling, so you bring stew or soup or vegetables in water to a boil, then simmer for a prescribed number of minutes. In the 1980s, someone realized this doesn't require metal can. They used the same canning technique, but packaged in plastic bags. Food in a plastic bag will last as long as food in a metal can. The catch is you have to use a plastic that can withstand the temperature of boiling water, and must be impermeable to oxygen and moisture. Saran is great for cling wrap, but partially melts and will shrivel in boiling water. Other plastics are impermeable to oxygen and/or moisture. Blister packs for pills often use multiple layers of plastic, one layer is Aclar, a brand name for PCTFE. It's expensive plastic, but you only require a very thin layer to be impermeable to moisture. Strength of the plastic comes from a heavier layer of a less expensive plastic.

The media recently ranted about garbage from "K" cups for coffee. Those cups have multiple layers. One layer is aluminum, used to keep moisture and oxygen out of the coffee, so the coffee ground remain fresh. The media ranted because the layers cannot be easily separated for recycling. But again, notice the aluminum layer.

So what is NASA using for their food packaging? Are they using something that feels heavy, but isn't impermeable to moisture or oxygen? That would explain their problem with shelf life.

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#28 2015-04-13 09:17:32

GW Johnson
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From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 2,692
Website

Re: Imperical ISS data for Mars Mission

See also my reply today in the "historical Mars flyby CSM" thread.  This camp food technology is what we need,  for sure. 

I'd add artificial gravity to the transit ship,  so that conventional free-surface water cooking makes conventional fresh/frozen food possible.  Keep the camp food for the periods of no gravity during maneuvers,  and for the rover forays on the surface. 

Just a thought.

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2015-04-13 11:39:45)


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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#29 2015-04-19 21:25:28

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 10,527

Re: Imperical ISS data for Mars Mission

The accuracy of data available has been hard to get but as of Mar 2015 there have been 7 onboard the station and in Nov 2014 there were 6 of course whenever there is a crew exchange the count swells before receding..this can be up to 10 or so days that the systems onboard are put to there limits quite possibly but without better number how can we justify only using the systems that we have.

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#30 2015-07-03 18:45:13

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 10,527

Re: Imperical ISS data for Mars Mission

RobertDyck wrote:

Progress Cargo Craft Launches to Space Station, Safely in Orbit; Docking Sunday

Progress M-28M Cargo Manifest
The manifest is a table, with two tones to show summary vs detail. It's easier to read. But I'll quote the text anyway...

Refueling Propellant for Transfer to ISS Tanks     520kg    
Pressurized Oxygen for ISS Repressurization     26kg    
Pressurized Air for ISS Repressurization     22kg    
Water inside Rodnik Tank     420kg    
Total Dry Cargo Mass     1,393kg    

Atmospheric Maintenance System (gas analysis equipment, dust filters etc.)     12kg    
Water System Components (purification columns, filter, hoses, etc.)     38kg    
Sanitary & Hygiene Equipment (Russian Toilet Replaceable Parts, solid waste containers, water dispenser, wipes, etc.)     273kg    
Medical Supplies (medical aid kits, medical monitoring system, crew clothing, cleaning supplies, countermeasures, etc.)     137kg    
Food Provisions (food containers, fresh food, etc.)     430kg    
Thermal Control System (fan replacement, etc.)     10kg    
Onboard control system (Hard Drives, Cables, BSK-25B Switching Unit, etc.)     6kg    
Maintenance supplies (cargo bags, liners, window cleaning materials, etc.)     30kg    
Crew Support (flight data files,care packages for the crew, video & still cameras, etc.)     44kg    
Antenna Feeders and Installation Equipment     3kg    
Science Payloads (Microbial Control, MORZE, Regeneration, Aseptik, Kaskad, Test, Biodegradation, etc.)     21kg    
Electrical Power System Components (block 800A battery, converter/regulator, etc.)     105kg    
Onboard Telemetry Network System Hardware (Cable)     1kg    
Internal Module Outfitting Hardware (struts, handrails, hardware for MRM2, etc.)     3kg    
Zarya Module Equipment (Fire Extinguishers, Misc. Hardware)     39kg    
American Cargo for Russian Crew (food, clothing, hygiene items, crew preference items)     186kg    
American Cargo for USOS Crew (Food, Waste Disposal System Components, Hygiene Equipment, ESA Hardware)     55kg    

Total Cargo Upmass     2,381kg

Thank you for that post:

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#31 2015-10-13 21:26:31

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 10,527

Re: Imperical ISS data for Mars Mission

rom http://spirit.as.utexas.edu/~fiso/telec … -22-13.pdf

Average Human Metabolic Balance (lb/person-day)
•Oxygen 1.84
•Water 7.77
Drink 3.56
In food 2.54
Food Prep 1.67
•Food Solids 1.36
Oxygen 0.44
Hydrogen 0.08
Carbon 0.60
Other 0.24
•Total In 10.97

•Carbon Dioxide 2.20
•Water 8.53
Urine 3.31
Sweat & respiration 5.02
Feces 0.20
•Solids 0.24
In urine 0.13
In sweat 0.04
In feces 0.07
•Total Out 10.97

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#32 2015-10-18 21:29:14

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 10,527

Re: Imperical ISS data for Mars Mission

It would seem that Cygnus is about to go back into seric and that bodes well or the crew o the ISS.

Cygnus Cargo Craft Comes Together for Space Station ‘Return to Flight’ Blastoff in December

The biggest and heaviest Cygnus commercial cargo craft ever built by Orbital ATK is coming together at the Kennedy Space Center as the launch pace picks up steam for its critical ‘Return to Flight’ resupply mission to the space station for NASA. “We have an obligation to our NASA customer and most importantly the crews aboard the International Space Station (ISS).”

The ‘Return to Flight’ mission, dubbed OA-4, fulfills Orbital ATK’s commitment to “meet our cargo requirements to NASA under the Commercial Resupply Services (CRS) contract” following the catastrophic launch failure of the firms Antares/Cygnus Orb-3 resupply mission to the space station moments after liftoff one year ago from Wallops Island, Virginia on October 28, 2014.

In order to get the Cygnus logistics spacecraft back into service for NASA as quick as possible, Orbital switched rockets and the vessel will be carried to orbit for the first time by a United Launch Alliance Atlas V rocket – now slated for liftoff on December 3, 2015 from Space Launch Complex 41 at Cape Canaveral Air Force Station in Florida at approximately 6 pm. ET.

“We are taking advantage of the increased lift capability of the Atlas V. So with the enhanced Cygnus we are able to go from 2700 kg [with Antares] to 3500 kg of cargo [with Atlas V].”

SM has also been upgraded with the lightweight UltraFlex solar panels flying for the first time on the OS-4 mission. It propels the combined Cygnus vehicle to berth at the ISS.

“The enhanced Cygnus PCM is 1.2 meters longer, so it’s about 1/3 longer,” The cargo missions stock the station with all manner of equipment, science experiments, food, clothing spare parts and gear for the international crews of six astronauts and cosmonauts.

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#33 2016-03-06 20:26:30

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 10,527

Re: Imperical ISS data for Mars Mission

kbd512 wrote:

ISS maximum food storage volume and mass allowances per person per day:

6570 cubic centimeters -> 3.285 cubic meters per person for 500 days

2.38 kg -> 1190 kg per person for 500 days (I think we can get this down to 1000kg with improved packaging and high energy breakfast bars)

Edit: According to this NASA Sustaining Life article, 915kg of food is required for 500 days, so our food and water are roughly 1290kg of our 1500kg payload. 

3.285 m3 - Astronaut Rations

.375m3 - 3m L x 2.5m W x .05m H - 375L (for fresh and grey water tanks and SPE protection - astronauts hide in a ditch under their rover and attach power/air/water umbilicals to the rover)

.06627 m3 - 4 MOXIE oxygen generators (I really need the mass for MOXIE, anyone have it?)
# m3 - 2 CL-ECLSS (anybody know what type of ECLSS is required for a 2m x 5m inflatable cylinder with a 1m x 2m airlock attached to it?)

I don't know what volumes and masses are required for tools or life support, but it's probably a safe bet that the base unit can be shorter or narrower than my stated dimensions because we're only up to 3.74 m3 and have 1.26m3 worth of volume remaining.  If we have substantial volume remaining after the ECLSS and water generator hardware have been accounted for, then we can shrink the base unit height to reduce volume and weight.

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#34 2017-11-12 19:34:04

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 10,527

Re: Imperical ISS data for Mars Mission

Like clock work another shipment of goods have been sent on there way on the newly upgraded Orbital ATK Antares rocket. 139-foot-tall booster Antares 230 with a first stage sporting Russian-built RD-181 engines

Antares rocket boosts cargo ship to orbit

Three-and-a-half minutes after liftoff, at an altitude of nearly 62 miles, the first stage engines shut down and the stage fell away. About 40 seconds later, the rocket's solid-fuel second stage ignited for a two-minute, 43-second burn to complete the climb to orbit. The Cygnus cargo ship was released to fly on its own about two minutes after that.

Loaded with nearly 7,400 pounds of equipment and supplies, the spacecraft is expected to reach the station early Tuesday, pulling up to within about 30 feet of the lab complex and then standing by while Italian astronaut Paolo Nespoli, operating the station's robot arm, locks on to a grapple fixture. The Cygnus launched Sunday was loaded with 2,734 pounds of crew supplies, 1,631 pounds of science gear and supplies, 1,875 pounds of space station hardware, 281 pounds of spacewalk equipment and 75 pounds of computer gear.

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#35 2017-11-13 16:41:08

kbd512
Member
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 1,135

Re: Imperical ISS data for Mars Mission

When will we start using these things to send people and cargo to Mars?

Dragon V2 hasn't flown.  Starliner hasn't flown.  Dragon V1 isn't big enough.  Orion is too heavy and still not big enough.

ISS modules and Cygnus PCM's are real hardware that are actually in space right now.  All indications are that they work quite well.

Are we going to lose another decade or start re-purposing real flight hardware?

How hard could we possibly make this?

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#36 2017-11-13 17:19:25

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 10,527

Re: Imperical ISS data for Mars Mission

The Deep space design is being implemented by Lockheed with the ISS module that was at nasa on the ground but that topic has no clear indication as to when it will fly, or if this rapid prototype process is being used to leverage a better design for space use.

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#37 2017-11-16 20:15:59

kbd512
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Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 1,135

Re: Imperical ISS data for Mars Mission

Is anyone at Lockheed or Boeing actually interested in going somewhere?  I don't know how much longer NASA's level of funding is going to hold.  Someone needs to make something fly for the naysayers to believe the agency is still serious about real space exploration.

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