Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Void · 2023-02-20 11:13:17

In post #873, #874, and #875, I started thinking about a lunar transit system.

It became apparent to me that we are in a confused situation as it might be possible to mine the Earth's upper atmosphere for resources.
Also, it is unclear just what resources are really on the Moon and accessible.
And then there might be resources from asteroids and other objects.

So, I am taking my time to think it over and maybe find some more information.

I do like a body of hinged mirrors / solar panels that can also be used to airbrake, but for now I am going to rest on this.

Done.

Lunar Water: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_water
https://www.voanews.com/a/evidence-foun … nderground.

Carbon is a question as well.

My thoughts were to move Oxygen from the Moon to an Earth orbit to refill ships. I thought that an encounter with the Earth's atmosphere might help to deliver the Oxygen.

But as I have said, I want to ponder it more before perhaps going down a low reward path.

Done.

And to be honest, I just may not have the mind power to come up with a useful set of notions
I need to consider that as well.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-20 11:35:19)

Calliban · 2023-02-21 07:46:31

Void, that is interesting. As the lunar crust and mantle cooled and crystalised, a lot of the water dissolved in the magma would have come out of suspension. I wonder if there are porosities within the crust filled with liquid water? If so, this could be extracted by drilling into them, in much the same way as oil is extracted on Earth. Finding and extracting fossil water could become a significant future industry on the moon.

Regarding surface launch, I wonder if plasma could be used to launch payloads from the moon? Without any atmosphere, a linear plasma accelerator could be used to push a magnetic sail against gravity. As the moon industrialises and develops an exosphere, this option will become less tenable.

Void · 2023-02-21 10:36:23

I agree. My problem with the Moon, is that we need more examination of it. I feel that until we have a better definition of its nature, it might be early to choose a major method path.

Temporary Lunar atmosphere:
https://www.astronomy.com/news/2017/10/moon-atmosphere

During that time period, a lot of ice from impactors might also have traveled as vapor to the lunar poles. But also it might have been possible to have some liquid water that might have seeped down into the regolith.

But also, even if the Moon is sort of made of part of Earth's crust, then I think that there could be places where lava was traveling up, and then froze to solid rock where significant water might exist.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-21 10:39:21)

Void · 2023-02-23 12:36:32

Mars_B4_Moon posted this interesting material:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 95#p206595

In particular this: https://electrek.co/2023/02/16/offshore … weed-farm/

It is a very interesting article, but I must warn you that when viewing it I got an intrusion claiming that I needed to contact Microsoft as I had a computer infection. I restarted the computer and it seems OK.

A while ago, I posted this: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 62#p206262
Materials from posts #870, #871, and #872 pertain.

While I expect these farms to start off in anchored wind farms, I am thinking of free floating farms. And so I am interested in this:
https://phys.org/news/2012-07-blackbird-cart-fast.html
Image Quote

Quote:

(Phys.org) -- This month’s news-making word in wind-powered vehicle experiments is “upwind.” Blackbird, a wind powered cart, has shown it can travel upwind at more than twice the speed of circulating air. Rick Cavallaro, an aerodynamicist focused on designing record-setting vehicles that challenge wind speed, first made news two years ago when his Blackbird vehicle raced downwind at 2.86 times the speed of the wind. This time, after modifying his cart, he and his Blackbird team went out to the New Jerusalem airport in Tracy, California, where the vehicle achieved a top speed 2.01 times faster than the wind speed when headed upwind.

So, I am curious if a free-floating wind farm / algae farm, can propel itself into the wind or with the wind, and so navigate safely in a gyre or other places in the oceans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_gyr … que%29.%20
Image Quote:

As a propulsive method, water sucked up from deeper with nutrients could be warmed up and pushed out of jets to propel the device.
Alternately if might be possible to mix warm upper water with fertile cold water, to allow the nutrients to stay in the reach of sunlight. Then of course shooting that mix out to propel the assembly.

The legal rules for doing this in international waters, may be similar to the rules to take fish from international waters, and turn them into private property. Of course, this then becomes something that requires finer negotiations.

--------------------

This strays into the notion of tribute taking, which is a criminal activity which is emerging, a sort of modern slavery being attempted.

The question of fairness.

A possible example might be where environmental protection entities might be used to extract tribute from a productive entity.

A sort of protection racket.

Using the potential of interference to demand tribute of some kind.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protection_racket

It is my opinion that we here in the USA have suffered such things, and that the west in general should resist any global attempts at it.
I am glad of decolonization; I think it has in general been useful.

But global talker/killers should not be given tribute. They should not be allowed to "Farm" industrious peoples of tools, while offering a no value added nothing. Just being born on the planet should not obligate the payment of tribute to peoples who refuse to become industrious, who refuse to work for a living.

That is my attitude.

But with such farms we can probably drop the cost of food for them, and if possible, make fuels by manipulating organic matter with energy.

It was from the East and ancient times that slavery arrived.

It was from the west and modern times that slavery has been suppressed.

We must remain aware that alpha male breeding programs with slavery threaten to breed the human race to be more adapted to the primitive forms. And to not favor the tool people except tools to kill with.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-23 13:13:04)

Void · 2023-02-23 13:17:35

Continuing from the last post, I think that "Bobbers" on the surface, attached to the farm and wind structures could also generate power from waves. And so this also could allow the bringing of cold water up and perhaps propulsion of the farm for navigation.

A much harder sell will be greenhouses of plastic underwater.

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 62#p206262

The notions of plastics has become very poisoned. I suppose if they do find that microplastics are not acceptable, then that might justify it.
But the notion that plastics in the ocean makes plastic a sin like Carbon is almost a sin now? Well, it is ridiculous.

Just don't dump Plastic into the oceans. It does not take a genius to understand that you don't poo in your drinking water.

Using plastic bags may or may not be appropriate to some forms of aquiculture.

We can do without them I think but they may be of use.

They may be assistive in drawing nutrients up to the sunlight.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-23 13:24:55)

Void · 2023-02-23 17:26:11

Continuing on I might suppose that windmills become Hydraulic.

But I wonder about lifting water up ~32 feet in the Earth's gravity well, it may become vapor bound.

Hydraulic fluid might solve that but of course it could leak. Not necessarily ruled out. Compressed air?

So, windmills become air compressors. Then you might use an air motor(s)

Well, anyway, then expelled fluids could drive the underwater ship, or might drive a generator. The generator might also be involved with propulsion but might also heat an oven where biomass is cooked into fuels.

There would be options.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-23 17:27:58)

Void · 2023-02-23 17:46:31

And it occurs to me that since the whole platform could pivot, you could simplify the windmills as not to have that ability on their own.

That could be a very big feature, especially if they are to be non-electric, and have fluids moving from the windmill hub (Pump) down to the propulsion and generator functions. If air was the fluid, then a set of compressed air canisters could keep the propulsion running, if a sudden shift in wind occurred.

I like it anyway. Any comments?

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-23 17:47:31)

Void · 2023-02-26 12:41:33

OK, I have still been thinking about sea farming/industry and so then thinking how it might link to the Moon, and then how the Earth/Moon might link to the outer asteroid belt and the whole asteroid belt and Mars/Phobos/Deimos.

I think it may be possible that there could be floating platforms often in what we currently call international waters.
But for now, probably these activities will be in seafloor attached areas of wind farms.

I have been thinking of the utility of wave power, from below, not to above. That is I think that a different type of wave power could be utilized. It would be bobbers on cables with a weight and the cable involved with a pully to harvest energy. This could for instance then mix low cold fertile water with warmer water with lower fertility which would in many cases be above. I am not making an economic case here, (yet), but if so then with piping, each "Bobber" could be a tributary that feeds into more major pipelines. And perhaps some type of generator.

This might also be used to dampen waves to create an artificial lagoon of relative tranquility. For that I am not sure the value.

Aquafarming might be able to replace some marginal dry land farming.

I have been considering the fertility of the seas, the nutrients in the cold waters below. Would these be being exhausted by consumption? I don't think so, as long as the used foods materials are dropped back into the seas, to decay on the bottom. You could get some anoxic low waters from that, but maybe a bit of Oxygen will be pumped into the waters. So, perhaps fertilizers reused/recycled indefinitely.

It is highly debatable if materials from the Moon will ever be brought down to Earth to build structure in the seas, but never say never.

Blue Origin has apparently devised a way to build solar panels from Moon materials, so the Moon and orbits of Earth may have power stations, to beam power down to Earth. But Fusion appears to be making progress as well.

Taking those paths and also sea farming, I feel it likely that the CO2 levels can be managed.

The other thing I feel is important is to stifle Alpha Male breeding programs. Unfortunately, I feel that that encourages the breeding of the population back into stone age adaptations where tribal warfare and cannibalism dominate. It puts the ape back into alpha. Having only the gifts of leadership and the weapons of murder, then like a computer virus, it consumes the human race.

To have the materials to support a more vigorous Earth/Moon orbital infrastructure, I would like to consider how to get useful materials from the asteroid belt and particularly from the outer asteroid belt to the Earth/Moon system.

1) Lithobraking to the Moon: You could slam some of them into the polar areas of the Moon hoping that you could capture some of the materials into the shadows. This has apparently worked for natural comets and other impactors.

2) You could aerobrake into the Earth's atmosphere to Earth orbits. This would be dangerous per the potential of collisions and crashes.

3) I think it might be possible to swing around Venus or Mercury to come back at the Earth/Moon, and then do a ballistic capture. I think this is possible but I am not certain. These would be robotic and might bring things like water, Ammonia, and CO2, and maybe some metals of the valuable sort.

I currently favor #3 of course, if it can be done.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-26 13:02:33)

Void · 2023-02-26 21:25:31

Nothing so much more. I was thinking about a piston of a weight inside of a cylinder, where a bobber in the waves might pull it up and the weight drop it down. Then with valves you could have a water pump. The intention might be to get fertile water mixed with warm water, to cause the water to bloom.

Almost the same thing.

Done.

I suppose also I am wondering if a payload from the asteroids could loop around Mercury to do a Ballistic Capture to Venus.

It is in the family of the last post or so of speculations so I add it.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-26 21:27:47)

Void · 2023-02-28 16:20:57

I am thinking about the wave power piston again. If you put two inner tubes one at the top and bottom of the weight, that might buffer the water hammering.

But I am also thinking that the inner tubes might be filled with compressed CO2 and the alternate squishing of the inner tubes could drive a turbine.

I also think that they bobber and the weight should have buoyancy tanks so that the action of the device could be tuned, or calibration adjusted, to react to different wave conditions.

But a member has also posted something of great interest, so I wanted to get the above out of the way so that it can be considered further here: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 73#p206773

Particularly the duckweed interests me, but it sounds like they could do similar for Hydrilla or other plants.

Those two above plants are vascular and fresh water, but for the sea, it might not be so bad. Fresh water will float in sea water. If you had plastic bags, they would float, but could be pulled deeper in bad weather.

I think that biofuels are likely to be a good way to go, as if you want hydrogen or Methane, you could evolve them from biofuels.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-28 16:22:49)

Void · 2023-03-01 11:50:25

In the last post I appropriated this from "Mars_B4_Moon":

Quote:

This Common Aquatic Plant Could Produce Buckets of Biofuel
Engineered duckweed could be a prolific “green” oil producer
By Cari Shane on February 1, 2023

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti … -biofuel1/

While it is exciting for Earth, also I see it for Mars and of course synthetic gravity devices.

Duckweed is an interesting "Crop", but to create vessels for it to grow in, requires the consumption of created assets. I would like to minimize the cost and maximize the results. (Of course ).

So, we have Nemo's gardens. A good try, I would like to try to improve the container/vessels they use.

Their air-filled domes are of course domes: http://www.nemosgarden.com/

In a 1 g gravitation situation, ~33 feet, (10.0584 Meters), creates about a 1 bar differential pressure from the bottom rim of the dome to the top "Peak" of the dome. So the strength of the materials has to handle that differential pressure without a rupture. This would limit the area of the footprint of the dome. I want to modify that with some tricks that I think may be helpful.

I want to consider a method(s) to convert that into a diamond shaped enclosure, with a somewhat flat bubble on the top.

I will see about a drawing.

Of course, when the "Diamond Bag" is created you need to incorporate lines which "Brick Weights" can be tied to.

I have tried to make it a non-metals method as metals corrode and are valuable. Bricks may be relatively low cost. These bricks will need an eye for the lines can be attached then to the special shaped brick weights.

Plastics are supposed to be stable in salt water. Bricks of some sort should be as well.

It is not mandated that the interior of the diamond bag be filled with fresh water but it might be done.

A flat air bubble at the top is not mandated, but it could have some values, such as humans might be able to swim without diving gear, and so breath, hopefully well monitored and verified as safe "Air".

As for the flat top surface, it is true that things like algae may grow on it, so that can be a problem. But the inside of the flat air bubble may discourage it. The outside has to either be cleaned periodically or in the case of Mars and space the water that the bubble floats in may be non-supportive of vigorous algae growth.

I wonder if Nemo's gardens has had such a problem?

While on Earth with 1 g 10 Meters matches up with 1 bar, on Mars with about .38 g, 100 feet matches up somewhat with 1 bar.

If we presume a freshwater host for the Diamond Bag, then we may bring the top of the bag to within 33 feet of the surface, and still retain about 333 millibars of pressure. An Oxygen air bubble might do.

However, if the host water is super saturated with salts, then it may be possible to do similar but have the top of the diamond bag be closer to the surface, as the brine will weigh more than fresh water.

For the Earth's seas as a host, we don't need to worry that much about it as you will not ever expect to be below 1 bar of pressure, even if the bag is allowed to float up to the surface. But for Earth the game would be to keep it below the waves to keep damage at a minimum.

The logic of freshwater fill is that fresh water will float in salt water, and also the species of plants and/or animals inside the bag will not usually be adaptable to salt water, should there be a leak in the bag. So, less chances of introducing an alien species to an environment.

The article about biofuels, suggests that not only duckweed could be in the treatment. I am hoping that Hydrilla might also be treated, as it does not tolerate full sea salt water, and it tolerates low light levels, and it might be less annoying to humans in the bubble. But Duckweed might be the most efficient at getting the sunlight needed.

In a synthetic gravity machine in orbit somewhere, we can play with simulated gravity.

In a spin gravity situation where the host water, (Light Blue) was fresh and at the triple point of water in a 1 g simulation you could have the top of the diamond bag within 11 feet of the surface of the water. The pressure might be about 6.1 millibars. So, the windows to let the light inside of the spin gravity envelope would only have to hold less than 1/100th of a bar of pressure. The waters would do the rest, to get a pressure of 333 millibars in the top of the diamond bag.

If possible, the host water could be kept nutrient depleted, to inhibit the growth of microbes. This could also include depriving the microbes of CO2. In this case the objective is to have a very clear host water characteristic.

If you added salts to the host water to make it a dense brine, then you could lower the water temperature of the host brine, dropping the vapor pressure to below 6.1 millibars.

This again: http://endmemo.com/chem/vaporpressurewater.php

So for -21 C, a vapor pressure of "1.1201 mbar", so, almost as low as 1/1000th that of the sea level Earth pressure.

This could of course cause problems with freezing inside of the diamond bag. The air bubble would offer some insulation.

But if we could get by with salt gradients, which inhibit convection of the host water, it is possible that the water proximate to the diamond bag could be warmer.

Question: "How deep is a solar salt pond?"
Solar Salt Pond: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/en … red%20heat. Quote:

The pond is usually contained in earth excavated to 3 or 4 m depth. The excavation may be minimized by stacking earth to make a wall around the pond. Leakage effects from the pond can cause considerable loss of salt solution as well as stored heat.

So if the surface water is 1 g field, : 9.84251969 feet to 13.1233596 feet. But this is brine, and heavy, so the pressure generated will be more than that for fresh water.

On Earth, the temperature achievable with a solar salt pond is mentioned as: Quote:

130°C
To produce 1 m 3 /d of desalinated water, a solar pond area ranging from 1000 m 2 to 4000 m 2 is needed, together with a thermal flux of between 40 W/m 2 and 20 W/m 2, respectively, thus allowing the absorption heat transformer to increase temperature of part of the stored energy (about 50%) to reaching typical temperatures of up to 130°C needed for the traditional desalination of sea water by distillation.

But on Earth the top water will be closer to freshwater, and also at a significantly higher temperature than perhaps may be in the synthetic gravity machine.

But the point is that if you have a depth of 3 to 4 meters of brine above the surface of the diamond bag, you might be able to transition from -21 degrees C up to 0 degrees C, with that amount of salt gradients.

But it has to be kept in mind that in the situation I am suggesting the whole thing could erupt like a geyser, if convection occurs, and that might blow out the windows.

In reality we should be able to make windows to hold a substantial pressure, so going to these extremes perhaps is not required, but I wanted to explore the limits of the methods, and I feel that my thinking is approximately correct.

Taken to an extreme, it might be possible to have a barrier between the interior of a spin gravity device that holds just a little more than 1 millibar differential pressure and the host water would take care of the bulk of the rest of the pressure rise desired.

Supposing humans make it out to the supposed large water supplies available in the asteroid belt (At least the outer), and beyond, then these methods may be of value.

In reality you could make the windows stronger than ~1/1000th a bar, and almost certainly would, but you could get away with avoiding a full 1/3 to 1 bar differential pressure on large windows.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-03-01 21:06:42)

Void · 2023-03-01 13:36:35

Continuing with the just previous post, this shape might do: https://www.techeblog.com/space-habitat … g%20rubble
Image Quote:

A compromise between a torus and a cylinder.

But instead of being filled with rubble, then fill the shape with water. The windows above will also be subject to centrifugal force, so they can act as a counter pressure against the internal pressure.

In the spaces above the windows, then mirrors which can be moved, and so to regulate the amount of light sent in through the windows.

Of course, we don't want it to be too much of a cylinder, as to avoid gyroscopic tumbling, I believe that that is correct.

So, the windows can even be weighted, in order to offer counter pressure against the internal pressure, but they also have to be kept relatively leak proof. Having a lower internal pressure makes that easier to achieve, I believe.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-03-01 13:41:29)

Void · 2023-03-01 21:03:48

Continuing with the previous posts, I do wonder about implementation on Earth.

We have the example of Nemo's gardens in the Mediterranean Sea. So, the plastics apparently so far hold up in that environment.

So, to take salt lakes as examples, the current practice is to interrupt the freshwater rivers, and pour that water onto fields to grow crops.

If you could begin to switch to Diamond Bag agriculture, you could pour that water into the bags and have the Salt Lake water as the host water.

I tend to favor aquatic crops, but this might be adapted to potted plants as well. Perhaps as the weights.

So, then what? If you no longer poured fresh water onto the land, you could reinflate the lakes. Then when inflated as much as desired, the fresh water could again to some extent be used for dry land crops. Personally, I think it would be nice to inflate the lakes as large as they can be, but rainfall per year is variable.

----------------

If Phobos and Deimos are ice filled, then we might build centrifugal farms of the type I have previously suggested.

It seems likely that we will not be so lucky. But, if necessary, Hydrogen from Mars might be used, and Oxygen from Phobos and Deimos.

These devices might be considered a part of a heat engine. The windows being centrifugal, may have two layers. Between the layers may be placed chevron mirrors. The space between the windows, may have pressure at a molecular flow level, and that dumped into a very cold condenser chamber. So, the interior pressure inside of the inside window layer, having a low pressure, what leaks though it will go into the space between the windows layers. That then is the molecular flow duct to lead to the condenser.

In order to cool the interior of the synthetic gravity machine possibly Nitrogen might be used, to carry away heat, and then that Nitrogen to be condensed in a heat exchanger which would reject the heat to the universe. This might drive a turbine.

If the cooling and power system drops out, then the mirrors that shine light into the windows, could be diverted to prevent overheating.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-03-02 11:54:35)

Void · 2023-03-02 11:53:18

Isaac Arthur has a new video that bing cannot yet find: "Utube, Isaac Arthur, Space Habitats, 3h ago"

The dangling weights with which I hope to "Flatten" the top of a aquatic bubble / Diamond Bag, can be modified.

The weight could also be a planter pot to plant dry land plants in.

Here it needs to be said I am trying to create a plant growth situation. While humans could also be accommodated, there is nothing saying that you could not also have something more like an O'Neil Cylinder.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Neill_cylinder

But you could certainly put air filled habitat inside of the "Host Water" of the device I have been describing. This would be excellent radiation protection, I expect, and thermally stable as well.

And so, I have this possible feature:

Here I have tried to reduce the loss of water to space though the inevitable leaks in the window structure.

Good enough!

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-03-02 12:25:57)

Void · 2023-03-02 13:34:32

I have mentioned the device as a farm, human habitat, and power plant.

I have considered Nitrogen as the phase change fluid for a heat engine, but there could be other options.

Done.

Void · 2023-03-02 21:04:50

Recently I think Calliban and O.F. had a discussion about Callisto.

https://space-facts.com/moons/callisto/ … spacecraft.
Quote:

Callisto is a layered world, with a rigid outer surface and an interior ocean likely made of water mixed with salts or ammonia. There is a thin atmosphere at Callisto made mostly of carbon dioxide. It was detected by the Galileo spacecraft.
Diameter: 4,820.6 km
Mass: 1.08 x 10^23 kg (1.5 Moons)
Orbit Distance: 1,882,700 km
Orbits: Jupiter

And we might as well look at Ganymede: https://eos.org/research-spotlights/jun … n-ganymede
Quote:

Observations in other spectral bands also revealed the presence of nonwater chemical species on the surface of Ganymede, including possible detections of hydrated magnesium salts, ammonia, carbon dioxide, and a range of organic molecules.

So, I am interested in Ammonia in particular for the Nitrogen, and maybe some clays might exist with Nitrogen in them.

This is why the Finns were interested in Ceres: https://www.space.com/ceres-dwarf-plane … 0formation.
Quote:

Ceres, the most dominant member of the asteroid belt, doesn't look like the other asteroids. Most notably, it has a lot of ammonia on its surface, which other asteroids tend to lack. The only place to get a lot of ammonia is in the outer regions of the solar system in the early days of its formation.

It is thought that Ceres formed in the outer solar system, so Callisto and Ganymede might not be as endowed with Ammonia and other Nitrogen compounds, but we can hope.

This is a round about way to find the solar intensity for Jupiter, but it works: https://www.planetary.org/articles/ligh … an%20Earth.
Quote:

Though the amount of sunlight Jupiter receives seems to play a role in its weather, the connection isn’t totally understood. According to NASA, since the planet is 757 million kilometers (about 470 million miles) from the Sun, it gets about 25 times less sunlight than Earth.

So, to have Earth sunlight intensity you would have to concentrate >25 times, as mirrors will not be perfectly efficient.
Just a rough guideline: https://blog.growjoy.com/2021/01/24/how … bles-need/

So, Jupiter's magnetosphere is bad near Io, Europa, and Ganymede. More tolerable for Callisto. But I am thinking that water based and shielded orbital habitats would do well in the orbit of ~Callisto and outwards. Of course, the water trick will help.

So, after the Asteroid belt is inhabited, it should be quite possible to take apart Callisto and Ganymede to construct an enormous number of habitats, should humans continue with technology and desire to take that path.

As for Io, I think that eventually some type of Robotics may allow it to be turned into a giant power plant.

Who knows maybe to transmit power to the other Moons or to other purposes.

Some fun anyway, to dream of.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-03-02 21:29:53)

Calliban · 2023-03-03 04:58:26

The average temperature of Callisto is 134K. Looking at the phase diagram of CO2, the vapour pressure at this temperature is almost negligible.
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Car … _246314679

So there could be a lot of dry ice on or within the upper crust. All that would be needed to produce a thick CO2 atmosphere would be to warm the moon up. Warming it to -60°C would give you 0.4 bar surface pressure. That is enough for people to live and work on the surface wearing oxygen masks and warm clothing. An orbital mirror could reflect sunlight onto the surface. Alternatively, some seriously huge fusion reactors could be warm the surface with waste heat. Float the reactors within a pond and the pond surface will evaporate, functioning as a cooling tower. The water vapour would radiate heat onto the surface and snow out across the surface of the moon.

The ponds could serve as habitats for aquatic ecosystems. There is still enough sunlight at Callisto distance to allow algae growth if another heat source is provided. I think land plants would be more problematic.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-03-03 05:02:35)

Void · 2023-03-03 11:25:56

That is a reasonable pathway to seek. Ganymede has its own magnetic field, and if supplemented, and if an atmosphere is installed, the radiation problem may be within tolerable limits on the surface.

Callisto could be improved by similar methods, I presume.

I believe that a flame of life or death could be created with floating heliostats in various locations to focus light to these moons, if that is desired.

For instance, if you made mirrors in the Trojans of Jupiter as a swarm to focus on the two moons, you could provide an increase in luminosity of course. But how do you cause a collection of entities involved to co-operate in this manner? Also, I agree that precision may be a problem for this.

But you might build a swarm of orbiting mirrors, mirrors that orbit Jupiter. That requires less precision, and perhaps a collective government might compel good behavior, maybe.

This could be considered for Titan as well, but of course the amount of mirror becomes a whole lot more.

I favor synthetic gravity devices by spin, and also you concept of water/ice balls with protective but very large qualities.

Callisto may not be completely differentiated, so may offer a distribution of elements suitable to human industrial/technological needs, so after the asteroid belt a good place to start.

Of course, my notion is to have orbital synthetic gravity machines, but if they are to exist then mining Callisto is probable. Since you would be there you might as well try to improve the place (From a human standpoint).

Probably salts will be available or can be created. So, your ponds could be solar salt ponds, and could achieve rather high temperatures, presuming that mirrors in orbit would shine on them. In a low gravity field convection is less promoted.

So, since your objective is to evaporate an atmosphere, rather than rejecting heat to space you could use the fossil cold of the moon as your cold side of a heat engine process.

Being mindful of collapse potential, you might melt huge caverns some distance below, while dissipating the heat to generate electricity.

Some of the gasses to be vented to provide some atmosphere. The water and minerals to be sold to the communities in orbit with the mirrors.

A cavern properly carved in a low g field, may then be allowed to refreeze, and might be modified to host robotic industry at cold temperatures, with some small space warmer for humans. To maintain an atmosphere, of CO2, an amount of sunlight similar to Mars may work, presuming that the mirrors focus on the polar areas in particular.

Presuming perfect mirror efficiency, then rather than 25/1 you could possibly do OK with 12/1. Twelve times the mirror surface as is the sunny side of Callisto.

If you can add greenhouse gasses and super greenhouse gasses you may reduce that ratio.

If you go that far, you might try a high ice cloud diode.

https://bigthink.com/hard-science/water … e%20planet.
Quote:

In a recent study, researchers created a computer model to explore how varying levels of surface ice would have affected clouds above the Martian surface. The results showed that icy, high-altitude clouds would have formed if Mars was covered in relatively small amounts of ice. These clouds would have helped warm the planet.

So, if Callisto can keep an atmosphere, it would be a very tall atmosphere, and it is reasonable to suppose that the rate of ice crystal "Fall" will be relatively slow. If water vapor were then continuous replenished, then this item may allow the ratio or mirrors to drop.

Just on a guess then maybe only 6/1, which might be plausible. Callisto being a mining planet, could sell product to the orbital communities with the exchange of sunlight reflected to Callisto being the fee.

Ganymede might be similar, but I am not sure.

As for your water worlds, maybe Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune could have small moons from which they could be built, perhaps eventually exposing the cores to be mined.

Done.

Some of these tricks might be practiced for Mars first.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-03-03 12:03:04)

Void · 2023-03-03 21:15:57

Calliban initiated some further thinking on Callisto and perhaps Ganymede.

Callisto though. Mars disappoints as to how much reserve CO2 it has. It is an important target anyway, but how much CO2 and perhaps Ammonia would Callisto have?

An opinion: https://www.universetoday.com/57581/cal … on%20oxide.
Quote:

Composition and Surface Features:
The average density of Callisto, at 1.83 g/cm3, suggests a composition of approximately equal parts of rocky material and water ice, with some additional volatile ices such as ammonia. Ice is believed to constitute 49-55% of the moon, with the rock component likely made up of chondrites, silicates and iron oxide.
Callisto’s surface composition is thought to be similar to its composition as a whole, with water ice constituting 25-50% of its overall mass. High-resolution, near-infrared and UV spectra imaging have revealed the presence of various non-ice materials, such as magnesium and iron-bearing hydrated silicates, carbon dioxide, sulfur dioxide, and possibly ammonia and various organic compounds.

So, this is about all four major moons, Callisto and Ganymede are of interest: https://phys.libretexts.org/Bookshelves … of_Jupiter

So, I have wondered if Callisto or Ganymede could hold an atmosphere.

We know that the natural sunlight is ~1/25th that of Earth, and perhaps ~1/12th that of Mars. Jupiter protects it from the solar wind, but I wonder if the particles in Jupiter's magnetic field could erode an atmosphere.

Ganymede has its own magnetic field, but it would not be powerful enough, perhaps, I speculate.

For Callisto if you provided a large magnetic field, then perhaps what might push atmosphere off would be sunlight from mirrors.

But if you distributed it more evenly though time, it might be less of a problem.

Also, if the mirrors were wavelength selective, you might avoid the excessive excitation of exospheric molecules.

So, maybe..... It seems possible that Callisto would have lots of CO2 and perhaps Ammonia. Not so sure of Ganymede.
Both should have asteroid remnants buried, and much of those might be carbonaceous. So, likely Carbon and metals available.

What may also matter would be the amount of thermal radiation which may be emitted from the surface. This also could warm the exosphere.

Here I come again with my ice-covered solar salt ponds, but if you could trap the heat in such ponds and react it against the fossil cold of the crust and mantle of Callisto, you could sort of have your cake and eat it too, so to speak.

Keep digging ice caves to dump heat into, and extracting the materials to export to Jupiter orbits to support synthetic gravity worlds that support mirrors that shine light on Callisto, and maybe Ganymede. They may need metal bracing, but that may not be out of the question.

And you could have robot cities in them and some warm habitat in them as well.

Low gravity so perhaps you could go down some distance before pressure gets too out of hand.

So, the fossil cold might last for some period of time that is significant. Then after that you would have to find a way to radiate out in wavelengths that do not excite the atmosphere too much.

Very curious. Callisto could be the world where humans could breath and fly in the sky, if it is taken down that path far enough.

Easier than Mars, Venus, or Titan perhaps.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-03-03 21:42:44)

Void · 2023-03-04 20:49:18

I suppose I tend to put everything here eventually. I am excited about Tesla Bot.

1) It could create enough wealth to allow larger research budgets for space hardware research and missions.
2) I think that eventually it will be quite the thing for Insitu building on other worlds and in orbits.

Here is a longer video including Tesla Bot: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Te … %26ghpl%3D

This post contains the materials they are talking about:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 17#p206917

So, this is likely to be a story of continual accumulation of capabilities. 10 years from now, how capable might it be? I think it will be usefully capable.

Well, it looks like I cannot continue as there is an internal server error. That is annoying.

Well I will try again. Who knows what applications Tesla Bot might serve in space.

Factory grade might be able to work in factories in space.

But could it also be an "Avatar" for humans in safe places to work and explore in harsh dangerous environments?

My thinking is that if it does accumulate enough skill then they can be deployed to space stations, and to the Moon. Humans on Earth might oversee them.

So, then factories on the Moon, not requiring nearly the amount of human life support as a humans only presence would demand. So, perhaps more productivity and less cost.

As for Mars we should consider that when the first Starships attempt to land on Mars, and if they can, Tesla Bots may ride along with a modification of the Cyber Truck.

And I hate to spoil the favorite story, but there might be a case for the first visit to Mars to be to its orbits, and to Phobos and Deimos, with humans giving real time instructions for the Tesla Bots to build certain things and to explore and confirm resources. I know that this is not Mars Direct, (Exactly). It is Mars Direct for Tesla Bot.

Time will tell. It may depend on just how capable Tesla Bot becomes by that time.

Granted if humans go to orbit of Mars you have to likely use the longer Ballistic Capture path or use electric rockets. And most likely you needed to put supplies in orbit for the stay and the return trip. These would be real problems.

Maybe once the Tesla Bots had constructed enough structure and had confirmed resources, then the humans might land.

So, early on the Tesla Bots would work slowing with the time latency from Earth for humans to direct them. Then a period of time when humans direct them from orbit, to do the fussy work, and then maybe land the Starship. But that is a longer duration of time for the humans to be in transit and in orbit. Radiation protection and supplies and synthetic gravity may be wanted.

I don't feel that it is that stupid. So what if you send four Starships to orbit Mars, and tie the together for synthetic gravity. Then also if the crew for the total four ships is say 10, you probably can have more supplies and use them as radiation protection. As the supplies diminished then you would store garbage and waste to replace them as radiation protection.

If the Header Tanks can store propellants for that time, then one or more of the ships could then land, once the work with the Tesla Bots had been completed.

Any one of the four ships could likely land all 10 humans, if it came to that.

I think it merits consideration. Of course, the Tesla Bots have to be capable of what is needed.

Done

Talented members here have speculated on synthetic Gravity. But here is someone else's ideas. They do not fit completely with mine.

https://www.universetoday.com/143368/re … %20gravity.

The intend to land the Starships immediately, so then they have to disconnect the artificial gravity setup before going into orbit of Mars. They would also have to carry the joining structure for artificial gravity down to Mars and presumably back up again for the return trip.

I see the early uncrewed Starships using the Mars Direct method.

However, I have read that for Ballistic Capture, you have much more liberty as to when you launch for Mars. The window for that is large.

He proposes three ships, I suggested an arbitrary four. Thee, Six, who cares? As long as you find the very best method.

Let me be more of a Mars Heretic.

So, you land 3 or 4 one-way Starships with supplies, Optimus(s), and vehicles.
Preliminary exploration and construction. It should be possible to have radar and other sensing devices to probe the undergrounds, in particular for ice, and also to discover what hazards there would be.

Of course, presuming that Starship works, then a collection of them can be tested in orbit or Earth, for synthetic gravity and for how the whole assemble may work. This assembly does not have to be only composed of full-blown Starships. Although you might want two.

The "Naked Ship" 26? may lead to things like Lunar Starship, and Depots, but it could also provide a derivative of Lunar Starship that could come along with the Assembly.

And what if you could add two full-fledged Terran-R ships, should they come to be real? This mission is not Terran-R to Mars, but shows that the device may come into being. https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/ … mars-2024/

Now you have two Full-Blown Starships that could land, and two Full-Fledged Terran-R's that could land.

I imagine that you are now freaking out about tonnage. Well Starship eight can bring propellants to orbit and refuel or it will not succeed. If not then we are done with the concept until it can. If it can, keep in mind that SpaceX intends to send a million people to Mars, and massive materials.

Anyway, now it is time to think of abort modes. With the propellants in the header tanks of the 6 ships in orbit, could one or two of the Terran-R's go back to Earth and abandon the mission if necessary? If two, then you might have artificial gravity on the way back.

You do have two large ships and two small ships that might be able to land on Mars.

Robert Zubrin has suggested a "Mini-Starship" for the return trip to Earth.

Keep in mind that not all 10 might return to Earth, and to refill one or two Terran-R's might be a much smaller task than refilling a full-fledged Starship.

So, you got some of the propellant work done before humans ever landed, and also habitat. Some work would be done with the Tesla-Bots with the time latency from Earth. Then when the assembly reached Mars orbit by way of Ballistic Capture, a period of time would exist where humans in orbit could better direct the Tesla-Bots.

Then a first landing. Maybe with a Terran-R.

Humans on sit with the Tesla-Bots then complete the propellant production function to refill the Terran-R.

Somewhere in time you decide to land the other ships, or not.

This set of notions could certainly be modified, but I think it has some legs under it.

Done.

FYI, Ballistic Capture to Mars: https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti … e%20planet.

Done

.

Last edited by Void (2023-03-04 22:51:07)

Void · 2023-03-04 22:46:14

Continuing about the previous post:

So, pertaining to the survival of Optimus and Cyber trucks on Mars, I am thinking transparent tents, and Kilo power reactors.

While a tent with south plastic windows unpressurized might not be very useful for humans, it might be helpful for Optimus.

I still go with solar power for the propellants, but a bit of nukes in a tent may help survival during major dust storms.

During such a dust storm, heaters for the device might be the major power draw. Otherwise, the power would be to charge batteries.

The solar tent would be to heat the ground during the day, so that the ground could give up heat during the night.

Optimus might be able to pile rocks in places inside the tent, for heat soaking.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-03-04 22:48:25)

Void · 2023-03-05 10:16:48

So tools to promote Para Tera formation will be important.

For the moment I see Starship and Terran-R as being important, of course.

So, we are waiting for a flight of Starship now.

I have read an article that indicated that the objective is to manufacture a Starship every day, down the line. So, they have a distance to go to do that. Right now the types are being invented, but down the line it seems that the intention is to automate the production. So, automation of production will be the next push after the types of Starships have been invented. I am sure we are looking at years of development to get to that ability.

That, and the Tesla Bot, begin to suggest to me that production sites for hardware for use in space could be established on the Moon.

So, SpaceX is getting into Argon Thrusters, it seems. Small ones but you have to start somewhere: https://techcrunch.com/2023/03/03/space … thrusters/
Quote:

SpaceX’s acquisition of Swarm is paying off with new Starlink thrusters
Aria Alamalhodaei@breadfrom / 12:46 PM CST•March 3, 2023

Quote:

“The transition to argon was tricky, but necessary, as krypton is too rare,” SpaceX CEO Elon Musk explained on Twitter. According to specs shared online, these new thrusters will also generate 2.4 times the thrust and 1.5 times the specific impulse (a measure of how efficiently the unit uses propellant, versus the thrust generated) than previous Starlink thrusters.

Argon from the Moon? https://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title= … 20fissures.

Argon, Lunar Cold Traps: https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1980L … ic%20argon.
Quote:

Its brief lifetime in the lunar exosphere is marked by numerous adsorption/desorption events. Collisions with the lunar surface in cold, permanently shaded areas lead to long term storage, forming reservoirs of trapped gas that may be disturbed occasionally to produce sudden increases in atmospheric argon.
Author: R. R. Hodges
Publish Year: 1980

So, I will take that as a "Probable".

So, then while Starship may carry the initial hardware to Mars, I am thinking Argon Electric to become the main method to get it to Mars orbits. So, slow boat and probably solar electric.

So, I had this question: "Enhancing solar panels with mirrors."

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Enhancing … 99e9537241

This article is a bit favorable: https://www.solarempower.com/blog/solar … cal%20axis.
Quote:

Mirrors and solar concentrators or reflectors can increase solar panel output up to 30% if care is taken to dissipate the extra heat generated. The best configuration is to place a mirror on the ground in front of the solar panel in line with the panel vertical axis.

More: https://solvoltaics.com/mirrors-redirec … ar-panels/

So, done correctly it can be helpful. Keeping panels cool however also increases the output. So, in Space radiative cooling may be of value.

My next Query is "Foil Mirrors in Space".

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Foil+Mirr … a3e508bd1e

OK, they don't quite have what I want. I want to start with an Aluminum Foil mirror. It could have a thin coating on it but maybe not needed.

So, these electric rockets take 2,3,4,5 years to get to Mars orbits with what you want. It is preferred that these be made as much as is practical from Moon materials. When the arrive at Mars the ships would be scrapped. The solar panels still used as solar panels. The mirrors could be still used as mirrors, or the metal of the foil could be brought to a 3D printing facility to make things for Mars and Mars orbits.

So, I think quite a lot of it could be made from Lunar materials.

Of course, then you need Starships suited for bringing "Down Mass" to the surface of Mars.

While Phobos and Deimos and Mars itself may be sources for some of the materials, Optimus(s) on the Moon with almost real time communications with humans on Earth, are probably a labor pool of value for creating these ships on the Moon.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-03-05 11:05:11)

Void · 2023-03-05 11:07:50

So, in the last post I brought forward the idea of Manufactuing electric rocket systems on the Moon, with perhaps a few items for them being created on the Earth. These would be one-time-use, one-way rockets.

For humans I like the idea of collections of ships going to Mars by way of Ballistic Capture. Return to Earth would have to be a Hohmann Transfer method with Aero-Burn method, or a flyby like as in Cycling Spaceships.

I have a tendency to prefer the Semi-Cycler, as you could include Aqua gardens that could provide life-support and radiation shielding. This would be too heavy for ships that go Hohmann Transfer and then to the surface of the Earth. But with a flyby of Earth, they can come along, and gravitational propulsion and perhaps Oberth methods may help to send the whole assembly back to Mars.

Also to consider is magnetic protection from GCR, which also would be heavy and more suitable to a flyby method: https://arc.aiaa.org/doi/10.2514/1.A347 … GCR%20flux.

More: https://www.nasa.gov/directorates/space … Radiation/

My impression is that some types of magnetic propulsion may also grant a degree of radiation protection. So, the propulsion and protection may justify the cost. So, the Semi-Cyclers might have such included.

The problem of transfer of humans Earth<>Semi-Cycler are real. But perhaps the risk benefit balance may be justified.

My preference would be that a Ship from Earth would quickly dock with the Semi-Cycler and exchange humans and then dive into the Earth's atmosphere to land or skim the Earth's atmosphere to orbit. The Semi-Cycler may avoid a deep space high speed exchange, and only do it for a flyby of Earth, where more chances of recovery from mishaps may exist.

An alternative though is that the Starship would dock to the Semi-Cycler and ride all the way to Mars Ballistic Capture.

Ballistic Capture taking more time than the Hohmann Transfer method for Earth>Mars, synthetic gravity will be wanted. Spin as the method. I would hope that .25 to .33 g might be OK. It would be good in any case to compare human reactions to low actual gravity vs. low Synthetic Gravity.

If someone sees a fatal fault or even wants to nudge the idea in some ways, please do send input.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-03-05 11:36:08)

Void · 2023-03-05 21:29:06

I guess the most down to Earth notion for lifting stuff off of the Moon would be Hydro lox engines.

I would like to mention space elevators or skyhooks, but I think that is too wishful and perhaps not realistic.

So, I am wondering if the rocket exhaust in part could spray into a shadowed crater on the Moon, can some of it be recovered to ice?

It would be true that the storage of Liquid Oxygen and Hydrogen may be easier in the shadowed craters.

So, then you would need energy inside the crater. Nuclear Fission? Laser beams shining into the base in the crater? Or Aluminum power lines?

So, I guess it might be nice to be able to recycle some of the water, but not mandated.

I would like to consider chemical rockets or Hybrid rockets, but if the water is available then I guess that would be the first way to try.

Another possible feature in the future might be Lithobraking artificial comets into shadowed Lunar Craters.

If Phobos and Deimos have ice in them, (A long shot in my opinion), then it might be possible to create them and deliver them to the Moon.

For the moment my favorite notion of propulsion for them would be mass driver. Oxygen, powdered iron dust, Ice slugs with iron dust in them. These might be relatively possible and safe to use, perhaps.

An alternate interesting substance to Lithobrake would be Carbon Dust. Carbon has a very high temperature for vaporization.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon
Quote:

Sublimation point 3915 K (3642 °C, 6588 °F)

Triple point 4600 K, 10,800 kPa[3][4]

So, I think that a dust of Carbon might survive lithobraking from Mars/Phobos/Deimos or Asteroids, or Callisto material sources.

With impact energy, some of it might combine with Oxygen in the regolith and make CO and CO2, but even that might be captured into a shadowed crater.

About water ice I recall an article a long time ago where it was said that if you impacted the night side of the Moon with a ball of ice, 40% to 60% of the ice would remain frozen, but then at daytime would evaporate. But if you Lithobrake it into a shadowed crater, then you might even capture some of the vaporized water in the freeze process.

I might suggest harvesting asteroids into these craters as well. If they are small sizes and granulated, they may not dig too deep, and chances are the vaporized materials may also condense in the craters. So, perhaps this could be a way to get materials to the Moon as a resource to use by humans, (And the intelligent machines they will work with).

In the case of Carbon Dust Lithobraked, the result could be rockets that could burn Liquid CO and O2. Probably good enough to lift off of the Moon.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-03-06 11:05:35)

Void · 2023-03-06 21:07:32

Query: "Amount of water on the Moon"

Planetary Society says:
https://www.planetary.org/articles/wate … ng%20pools.
Quote:

600 billion kilograms
How much water is on the Moon? Based on remote observations by radar instruments aboard Chandrayaan-1 and LRO, the lunar poles have over 600 billion kilograms of water ice. That’s enough to fill at least 240,000 Olympic-sized swimming pools.

I guess that is a limited supply, but it could make a big difference if it could help to send hardware to Mar Orbits.

So, to start with using the water as fuel to lift objects up a few tens of miles/kilometers, may make sense. It may be that other means of propulsion could be use from there such as Argon Electric Solar or Argon Electric Nuclear.

But at some point, it might be worthwhile to investigate turning the Moon into a water collector. Solar wind and impactors may deposit water. A properly leaky magnetic field may allow them in and yet direct the water to the shadowed craters to condense.

Further then a desire could motivate methods to crash objects with Hydrogen and Carbon in them so as to add fuels to the Moons environment.

Maybe from NEO'S or Mars/Phobos/Deimos or the outermore asteroid belt or Callisto.

Carbon may actually be available in abundance from Mercury, maybe Venus also. And the Solar wind or photon propulsion may power the delivery.

I suspect that CO/O2 propulsion would work for Mercury and the Moon.

https://theconversation.com/discovery-o … %20surface.
Quote:

Graphite
Mercury has been found to have a dark side with graphite, a crystalline form of carbon commonly found in pencils, being the source of the mysterious dark colouration of the planet’s surface.

And I feel that Carbon Dust may be one of the substances that may lend itself to Lithobraking into shadowed craters on the Moon.

Actually if you had a crater with very cold regolith/dust, that might work out nicely. Of course you would not want to cause a loss of water or Hydrogen.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-03-06 21:31:32)

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#876 2023-02-20 11:13:17

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#877 2023-02-21 07:46:31

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#878 2023-02-21 10:36:23

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#879 2023-02-23 12:36:32

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#880 2023-02-23 13:17:35

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#881 2023-02-23 17:26:11

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#882 2023-02-23 17:46:31

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#883 2023-02-26 12:41:33

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#884 2023-02-26 21:25:31

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#885 2023-02-28 16:20:57

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#886 2023-03-01 11:50:25

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#887 2023-03-01 13:36:35

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#888 2023-03-01 21:03:48

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#889 2023-03-02 11:53:18

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#890 2023-03-02 13:34:32

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#891 2023-03-02 21:04:50

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#892 2023-03-03 04:58:26

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#893 2023-03-03 11:25:56

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#894 2023-03-03 21:15:57

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#895 2023-03-04 20:49:18

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#896 2023-03-04 22:46:14

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#897 2023-03-05 10:16:48

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#898 2023-03-05 11:07:50

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#899 2023-03-05 21:29:06

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#900 2023-03-06 21:07:32

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Board footer