Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Void · 2023-02-13 19:06:08

Well, I am sick again. Not Covid, according to the test. But annoying. Lots of at home time, I guess. More of a cold.

Query: "COMETS, ASTEROIDSAND METEORIDS-Dangerous Drifters in the Solar System"
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=CO … &FORM=VIRE

I have been seeking to modify plans to put rubble asteroid materials into a cylinder of Carbon-Nanotube mesh.

It is arrogant of me, but I do know a little bit about working with shattered rocks with iron in them. I worked in a taconite plant for 10.5 years, so I can bring that much.

Fluidity was in use but lots of water was involved, and magnetism. So, fluidity of a rubble asteroid may substitute for water, perhaps.

As it is one of the better studied objects, I invoke Bennu.
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2020/bennu-top-ten
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/101955_Bennu
Quote:

Water
Predicted beforehand,[49] Dante Lauretta (University of Arizona) then stated that Bennu is water-rich- already detectable while OSIRIS-REx was still technically in approach.[50][51]
Preliminary spectroscopic surveys of the asteroid's surface by OSIRIS-REx confirmed magnetite and the meteorite-asteroid linkage,[52][53][54] dominated by phyllosilicates.[55][56][57] Phyllosilicates, among others, hold water.[58][59][60] Bennu's water spectra were detectable on approach,[53][61] reviewed by outside scientists,[62][40] then confirmed from orbit.[37][63][64][65]
OSIRIS-REx observations have resulted in a (self-styled) conservative estimate of about 7 x 108 kg water in one form alone, neglecting additional forms. This is a water content of ~1 wt.%, and potentially much more. In turn this suggests transient pockets of water beneath Bennu's regolith. The surficial water may be lost from the collected samples. However, if the sample return capsule maintains low temperatures, the largest (centimeter-scale) fragments may contain measurable quantities of adsorbed water, and some fraction of Bennu's ammonium compounds.[65]
Further information: Asteroidal water

Latest notions about working with rubble asteroids: https://www.techeblog.com/space-habitat … g%20rubble.
Picture Quote:

So, I recall members here speculating on putting a net around an asteroid. I recall Calliban thinking of a ring from which parts of rubble could be grabbed from. I am not very fond of plagiarism, so I hope not to be such a person.

At this point I want more of a sphere, and to have a magnet at each spin pole of the enveloped object. The magnets would pulse and over time attract magnetic materials to the spin pole areas, against the spin gravity.

The last article I read suggested a spin gravity to make 1/3 g on the rubble on the interior perimeter of the spinning object. I would opt for much less. The intention in this case is to partially classify the materials into magnetic and less magnetic materials to line the interior of the "net"?

Then you would have just a little spin gravity or magnetic methods to collect materials to further work with. But I want to cause a "Dirt Balloon". Then the idea is that the 20-40% voids inside are then consolidated into a major void.

Then you may put a spin gravity machine inside. This could be composed in part by items like the Starship and some other gear.

A hazard would be that a rock might rise into the void and be impacted by the spin gravity machine. So, we need another net that could hold its shape, which would prevent such rocks from reaching the spin gravity machine.

And along the way we have to figure out how to get thing into the hollow dirt ball, the size of a Starship.

Dr. Johnson once said that a Starship spinning end over end could generate .5 g at least in the nose of the device. But having two or more Starships and joining hardware would certainly offer better options, I would suppose.

So, then this is how you plant a seed in Bennu, rather than having to build a whole world and then wait to occupy it.

But I confess the scale is still very large to make a net big enough for Bennu.

Anyway, I totally welcome innovations towards better chances from the other members.

Not a bad start, I think.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-13 19:38:13)

Void · 2023-02-13 20:14:00

So, to control spin, and axis tilt, and perhaps even to propel the device a little bit, I think tethers attached to the outer net, and with magnetic bubble sails that can be throttled and maybe tilted to suit the purposes.

And of course, the system then has to have a power system for electrics. No need to have a binary war about it could be solar, nuclear or solar and nuclear.

Not a fussy item at all.

Could a station like this be built with materials from Phobos or Deimos? I would think so, and then you could size it better to lower costs, but you would need a method to get rubble off of one of the moons and into a net.

But then you would have the experience and a space station around Mars. And Mars itself is an important target.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-13 20:16:04)

Void · 2023-02-13 20:18:11

I want to work with the stainless-steel parachute. It is amusing, I think.

This would relate somewhat to this: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 88#p205888

A parachute is basically a cone: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parachute
Quote;

A concave surface resists moving down though a fluid (Air).

Space Capsules are also often cone shaped, as inverse in shape to a Parachute: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=co … C2&first=1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cone

Quote:

The capsule as a cone shape typically has a convex bottom.

I am supposing that you could build a stainless-steel version of either. The parachute cone is more intuitive, but I might like the capsule.

But it would also be a mirror as an alternate service and a shield for space junk if you are doing a low pass above a planet's atmosphere. And at times it might serve as a flywheel, and a chassis.

Like a capsule, I am hoping that navigation can be done by shifting weight. Also, I have hopes of some type of aerosurface that might survive trailing behind during a skim of the atmosphere. But that hope may be false. But maybe if you stay in rarified atmosphere the shock wave coming off of the "Bottom" of the cone would not be that bad???

Otherwise, you need some other navigational method such as magnetics or thrusters, if you have to.

This is intended in part for aerocapture to orbit, not for landing on a planet. Or, actually on a planetary gravitational assist you might skim the atmosphere to play that game, or also include an Oberth Maneuver.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-13 20:38:59)

Void · 2023-02-14 11:48:31

I think that we don't want the "Divide and Conquer" people to feed off of the space efforts as parasites.

So, a binary argument about asteroids vs. planets is to be avoided.

But with the new space hardware emerging, it does not hurt to consider possibilities of how such hardware might be applied to many possible objectives.

Otherwise, we will be led into a circle-spiral-down of doom by bean counters and suits who tend to hollow things out to extract the life from the things, and to feather their own nest at the expense of progress.

When the bean counters are allowed to rule the technologically creative people, that renders a short-sighted profit with a long-term doom tied to it.

Done.

Void · 2023-02-14 11:49:57

So, with Mars comes Phobos and Deimos and some trojans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_trojan

I don't know the math as to how accessible the trojans might be.

It might also be that NEO's are a useful thing.

Still a lot to learn.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-14 11:55:56)

Void · 2023-02-14 17:53:58

People have had their eyes on mining water, Platinum metals and Gold from asteroids.

Now I am wondering about Carbon and Oxygen and Iron as dry ice impregnated with iron dust, for propulsions. That may make mining them pay if you can get all of the mentioned substances.

Query: "Carbonaceous Near-Earth Asteroids"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Carbonace … 4b600bf514

Query: "Volatile products from carbonaceous Asteroids NASA/ADS"
Response: https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1993r … N/abstract
Quote:

Volatile products from carbonaceous asteroids.
Nichols, C. R.
Abstract
Samples from the Moon and most near-Earth asteroids are depleted in the volatile elements carbon and hydrogen. Only one class of asteroids is rich in these elements: carbonaceous asteroids. No carbonaceous asteroid has yet been sampled directly. The knowledge of their composition is based on the study of carbonaceous meteorites. A wide variety of evidence suggests that near-Earth carbonaceous asteroids are the source of most carbonaceous meteorites. As about one third of the classified near-Earth asteroids appear to be carbonaceous, one can expect to find an abundance of volatile resources among the near-Earth asteroids.

Publication:
Resources of near-Earth space, p. 543 - 568
Pub Date: 1993 Bibcode: Keywords:
Minor Planets: Volatiles; Minor Planets: Carbon; Minor Planets: Hydrogen

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41550-021-01551-5
Quote:

Sample return reveals that the asteroid Ryugu is a carbon-rich primitive body

The estimated amount of Carbon in a Carbonaceous Asteroid: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/ea … and%201.05.
Quote:

5%
The carbonaceous chondrites contain up to 5% carbon in a variety of forms, including organic matter, carbonates, and minor amounts of “exotic” presolar grain material such as diamond, graphite, and silicon carbide. For a review of the classification of presolar grains and carbonaceous meteorites, see Chapters 1.02 and 1.05.

Diamonds?

So, Oxygen is lighter than Carbon?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=At … ORM%3DVDRE

So, if we bake Carbonaceous materials, we may reduce the metals, and produce water and CO2. Among the reduced metals can be Iron and maybe Nickle.

And you already may know that I want to add iron dust to dry ice to make Thow Mass for a Mass Driver propulsion system.

And I want to have such on this sort of thing: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 85#p205785

I would like to get miserly about expending water, when CO2 would do, and would do well.

The mirror as one of its functions is to power either a heat engine or a higher temperature solar panel array.

But it could heat an oven filled with asteroid materials to refine.

Two types of electric propulsion could be included. Dry Ice w Iron Dust Mass Driver, and Magnetic drive using the solar wind. If desired some sort of Ion Drive could be included.

But CO and O2 would make a very nice fuel for a device like this as it does not have to land on large planets.

There would also be the option of CO2 Steam Propulsion.

I mention all of these as there could be all sorts of different sequences used to access an asteroid.

The CO/O2 burns may be for small thrusters, or maybe a big burn if doing an Oberth Maneuver around a planet.

And I will mention again that I also want to develop the mirror as an aero capture or aero deflect device for navigations.

I have read that NASA is getting into Nuclear Propulsion. That is good. Such could be used as a tug to get this device traveling, and/or the device could travel to the target, and a Nuclear Rocket could get workers. I say workers, but they should also at least be laboratory technicians, so that they could properly take samples for return to Earth.

The processor, which I guess it would be if it is used in mining, could take a long time getting to the target asteroid. But it would have life support for the humans when they got there.

I think that this is looking rather good.

And there is so much CO2 and Iron in the solar system. Mercury also has a lot of Carbon.

https://theconversation.com/discovery-o … %20surface.
Quote:

Mercury has been found to have a dark side with graphite, a crystalline form of carbon commonly found in pencils, being the source of the mysterious dark colouration of the planet’s surface.

I am hoping that it would be possible to magnetically brake into orbit of Mercury. It is a big ask, I guess.

But CO2 is going to be everywhere. Even the Moon has more Carbon than was supposed.

Done.

It seems more likely to me that the moons of Mars will be more likely to have Carbon than water, but they may have both. They will also have Oxygen and Iron.

https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/moons/mars … 20diameter.
Quote:

The moons appear to be made of carbon-rich rock mixed with ice and may be captured asteroids.

Even without water, Dry Ice might be available to manufacture from Carbon and Oxygen, and Iron should be there.

I really think that "Spacecraft Carriers" should be considered for Mars. They would house Spaceships and assist them in travel.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-14 19:06:38)

Void · 2023-02-15 13:35:51

I am somewhat interested in this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hayabusa

"25143 Itokawa" The second mission accessed "Ryugu". Ryugu is Carbonacious and so is expected to have Carbon and Hydrogen.

But from what I have read, Itokawa, which was expected to be stony, as having heated up and drove off volatile substances, does have some.

For the Carbon, it seems that after the parent body of Itokawa finished heating up, some Carbon bearing materials were added.

Then the rubble pile Itokawa Japan studied retained a bit of that, and also the asteroid materials were enriched with Hydrogen from the solar wind. So. that is a little more promising than a totally dry rubble pile with no Carbon.

https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/asteroids- … /in-depth/
Image Quote: itokawa_main.jpg?disposition=attachment

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-84517-x

https://earthsky.org/space/organic-mate … robiology/
Quote:

But now we believe that Itokawa was able to assemble again from its fragments and be re-hydrated with water from dust or meteorites.
Water had also previously been found in samples from Itokawa recently, in 2019.
Remarkably, the scientists were able to make these findings from only that one sand-like grain, which was nicknamed Amazon. They found both heated and unheated organic material next to each other in the sample, which provided clues as to how the organic compounds evolved over time. As lead scientist Queenie Chan at Royal Holloway explained:

While recent works suggest this: https://scitechdaily.com/wild-research- … it%20spins.
Image Quote: Asteroid-City-in-Space.jpg?ezimgfmt=rs%3Adevice%2Frscb2-1

I wonder if another method is to insert an expanding balloon into the asteroid to create a hollow. Maybe over time both?

So, I guess you could have multiple layers ultimately. Layering is often useful in harsh environments.

We also have to consider metamorphic patterns change from a beginning to a chosen end form.

A refinery which primarily moves on the solar wind slowly might migrate between high Carbon and low Carbon asteroids. The refinery might grow in size over time, but also might multiply like microbes do.

I have my eye on Phobos as well.

Things to think about.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-15 13:58:07)

Void · 2023-02-15 14:16:05

So, I guess I will continue.

While each asteroid is worth a value, in this pattern, there could be incentive to prefer the ones which might be of danger to Earth, and then later also to perhaps protect Mars and Venus, presuming those have been settled in some way.

Of course, some social method has to be established to prevent the use of such as a danger to Earth, but to make it a protector and provider to Earth, and other settled places.

If a magnetic bubble is added to an asteroid, then it is very likely that those will be working together. The asteroid having inertia, and the magnetic field acting on the solar wind.

So, to make it more international, let's suppose Bennu was the first, and Itokawa the second. Obviously, I am making this seem easier than it will be. i have not studied the relative orbits.

The point I want to get to is that in the refinery towing Bennu to Itokawa, there is no reason to discard any mass, as garbage. You would process the entire thing and make what you could from the materials.

With using the solar wind, I believe that it is easier to sail outwards from the sun than inwards. But that might be fine. In reality probably Itokawa would also need a magnetic sail as well.

Anyway, multiple outputs could come from this. Protection of planets, Propellants, Metals, and a growing size and plurality of refineries.

A magnetic field begins to protect from radiation. The fields can be throttled for radiation protection and for propulsion. In general, these objects and masses would be dragged outwards from the sun. Mirrors can always compensate for the attenuation of sunlight.

Slag, or garbage becomes another layer of defense from radiation.

Refined materials become machines and housing.

That might work out.

Then the question is how to mesh this will interplanetary trade and exchanges.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-15 14:29:58)

Void · 2023-02-15 19:14:11

So, this is another pathway, maybe a really good one. But it does not stop the Moon or Mars effort.

Done.

Void · 2023-02-16 12:03:40

I am pondering several things just now, but I want to point to a Mini-Comet Mass Driver method of propulsion.

Mass Driver: (This is somewhat negative on Mass Drivers for propulsion, but I will argue for it anyway).
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index … ic=44577.0

Comet Dust: (This shows that Comets regularly push dust into the space environment and that the solar wind blows it away).
https://astronomy.com/magazine/news/202 … 20sunlight.

The materials for a Mini-Comet, could be magnetic dust, dust, Dry Ice, water ice.

I had originally thought that ices would make the bulk of it, but now I think that under certain circumstances a large bulk of magnetic and non-magnetic dust could be glued together with ices, preferably dry ice, but maybe a pinch of water also. Also, perhaps some form of garbage/waste could be disposed of in this manner.

Once upon a time I did champion an Oxygen bullet mass driver, but that may be much more expensive to work with.

With the Mini-Comets, if space waste products could be made into fine particles, they could be included.

It is important not to pollute the space environment with impact hazards, so I do not favor using such a method in LEO. If you did then the mini comets should be almost entirely ice. If you could launch them in such a way as they would burn in the Earth's atmosphere, that might be hygienic. If you could launch them with such speed that they would leave the Earth's gravity well, that might be OK.

Around the Moon similar rules might apply, if they would either impact the Moon, or be ejected outside the Earth's gravity well.

Only using a Mass Driver, they hope is that these Mini comets would evaporate in such a way as to not leave dust clumps, and that the solar wind would push the dust away as in a regular comet. An additional method to keep space clean is to shoot the mini comets just slightly above the orbital plane that is most valuable.

Another way to clean the process would be to evaporate the mini comets as they leave the Mass Driver. I have considered a laser method, and possibly a magnetic squeeze nozzle???

Maybe Microwaves though?

I think that this could hold a lot of promise as we can get materials from the Moon or Earth, also from Mars/Phobos/Deimos.

You do though need some electric power source. I am open to what works.

I have been working on a Starship Carrier, although I think other ships might be accommodated. That platform would not land on a planet or large moon.

So, if that is done, then you can help the Ships between Earth and Mars or other locations.

In dealing with Organic Space Garbage from space stations in orbit of Earth, perhaps the garbage could be mixed with Moon dust, and heated to produce reduced iron and nickel and CO2 and Water. You could produce Carbon, but why not bind that to two Oxygen atoms for each Carbon atom?

As for metal or ceramic space junk, perhaps that can be ground to a fine powder to be included, or maybe made into some sort of radiation shielding.

It is also possible that if SpaceX launches expendable "Naked" Starships, they might be cut up to make powder, but then that could be a lot of work. Maybe Moon dust is easier.

As for Phobos and Deimos, methods to extract powder could be developed, as return propulsion mass.

A spacecraft with large electric power capabilities could also use solar wind to propel when it was not using other propulsion methods:
Mass Driver: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 74#p206074

And as I have mentioned before a device like that with a large mirror may be able to use that mirror to brake into orbit using air friction.

But a path to Mars using Ballistic Capture would not need aerobraking. It could be very important for the return trip to Earth though.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-16 12:41:04)

Void · 2023-02-16 17:34:18

A propulsion method(s) that could allow capture of space junk to turn it into propellant?

Where some air braking methods may bring mass to burn in the Earth's atmosphere. Could that be modified so that a low flying craft could capture that mass to convert into more propellant. That is a wish. Converting a big piece of space junk from an eccentric orbit to a circular low orbit, may put them into the reach of such a process.

The possibility of mining atmospheric Oxygen might be desirable as to add to the space junk to convert some of it to Oxidized materials. Also, Moon iron perhaps?

Anyway, not an accomplishment yet but a desire.

Done.

Void · 2023-02-17 11:10:41

I am going to consider using previously mentioned mass driver methods to simply do station keeping in orbit of a world.

I welcome corrections should a member observe that I am making mistakes, or any comment as well.

Garbage is disposed of to burn up in the atmosphere, already, from the ISS, but it does not benefit the orbital energy of the space station.

I see that there is some recycling of CO2. I am not sure what is done with all of it.

I am actually looking beyond the ISS, and more thinking of future space stations.

So, from my point of view, organics might be placed in a solar oven to react with Moon dust, to produce H20 and CO2. Unfortunately, it may not be as clean as that. Other gasses might be produced. Anyway, the water recovered can have its uses, and the CO2 could be put into slugs to fire out of a mass driver. The Moon dust reduced of Oxygen by this process, should hold some magnetic material.

So, for now I am not going to imagine the non-organic wastes in the process. Eventually it might be nice to have a place in orbit that could recycle the metals and such, and it would be nicer if it could recycle space junk. But for now, it is not included.

For this example, I am assuming an orbital object that needs to be re-boosted in orbit, as it has a slowly decaying orbit.

So, if reduced dust from the Moon could be incorporated into a dry ice slug, then that could be fired in a retrograde direction to boost the orbit of a LEO platform. The objective would be to fire the slugs fast enough against the direction of the orbit of the platform that the slugs would quickly drop into the atmosphere and vaporize/burn up. The needed opposing speed might not need to be a small fraction of the speed of the orbital platform.

Anyway, if it could be assured that the slugs would drop properly this would not add to orbital collisions.

A method like this could also be useful for other worlds, perhaps Mars.

I just thought I would run through it. I confess that the mass driver might need to be rather long.

Done

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I felt that this post was rather feeble, so I will resort to other people's materials to supplement it. I had a look at the wiki and was surprised to find a fair number of materials.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_driver

Spacecraft-based mass drivers
A spacecraft could carry a mass driver as its primary engine. With a suitable source of electrical power (probably a nuclear reactor) the spaceship could then use the mass driver to accelerate pieces of matter of almost any sort, boosting itself in the opposite direction. At the smallest scale of reaction mass, this type of drive is called an ion drive.[citation needed]
No absolute theoretical limit is known for the size, acceleration or muzzle energy of linear motors. However, practical engineering constraints apply for such as the power-to-mass ratio, waste heat dissipation, and the energy intake able to be supplied and handled. Exhaust velocity is best neither too low nor too high.[19]
There is a mission-dependent limited optimal exhaust velocity and specific impulse for any thruster constrained by a limited amount of onboard spacecraft power. Thrust and momentum from exhaust, per unit mass expelled, scales up linearly with its velocity (momentum = mv), yet kinetic energy and energy input requirements scale up faster with velocity squared (kinetic energy = +1⁄2 mv2). Too low an exhaust velocity would excessively increase propellant mass needed under the rocket equation, with too high a fraction of energy going into accelerating propellant not used yet. Higher exhaust velocity has both benefit and tradeoff, increasing propellant usage efficiency (more momentum per unit mass of propellant expelled) but decreasing thrust and the current rate of spacecraft acceleration if available input power is constant (less momentum per unit of energy given to propellant).[19]
Electric propulsion methods like mass drivers are systems where energy does not come from the propellant itself. (Such contrasts to chemical rockets where propulsive efficiency varies with the ratio of exhaust velocity to vehicle velocity at the time, but near maximum obtainable specific impulse tends to be a design goal when corresponding to the most energy released from reacting propellants). Although the specific impulse of an electric thruster itself optionally could range up to where mass drivers merge into particle accelerators with fractional-lightspeed exhaust velocity for tiny particles, trying to use extreme exhaust velocity to accelerate a far slower spacecraft could be suboptimally low thrust when the energy available from a spacecraft's reactor or power source is limited (a lesser analogue of feeding onboard power to a row of spotlights, photons being an example of an extremely low momentum to energy ratio).[19]
For instance, if limited onboard power fed to its engine was the dominant limitation on how much payload a hypothetical spacecraft could shuttle (such as if intrinsic propellant economic cost was minor from usage of extraterrestrial soil or ice), ideal exhaust velocity would rather be around 62.75% of total mission delta v if operating at constant specific impulse, except greater optimization could come from varying exhaust velocity during the mission profile (as possible with some thruster types, including mass drivers and variable specific impulse magnetoplasma rockets).[19]
Since a mass driver could use any type of mass for reaction mass to move the spacecraft, a mass driver or some variation seems ideal for deep-space vehicles that scavenge reaction mass from found resources.
One possible drawback of the mass driver is that it has the potential to send solid reaction mass travelling at dangerously high relative speeds into useful orbits and traffic lanes. To overcome this problem, most schemes plan to throw finely-divided dust. Alternatively, liquid oxygen could be used as reaction mass, which upon release would boil down to its molecular state. Propelling the reaction mass to solar escape velocity is another way to ensure that it will not remain a hazard.

Quote of Quote:

To overcome this problem, most schemes plan to throw finely-divided dust. Alternatively, liquid oxygen could be used as reaction mass, which upon release would boil down to its molecular state. Propelling the reaction mass to solar escape velocity is another way to ensure that it will not remain a hazard.

So, I had things fairly right, but as it apparently is valid thinking I am not the originator. But then these can be considered further, which I count as a good thing.

I was chasing an Oxygen mass driver around for a long time.

Good.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-17 12:02:58)

Void · 2023-02-17 12:50:38

In the previous post I arrived at a notion that Mass Drivers to propel spacecraft, are not necessarily a silly notion. We just have not done it yet as we do not yet have large amounts of mass to toss around in a safe manner. But we will likely arrive at such a situation moving forward in time.

A conversation from Dr. Johnson as I recall it suggested that in manipulating Titan, it might be a shame to part with the Methane lakes, as they could be a useful resource.

Conversations with Calliban suggested that to make the Martian atmosphere too thick might impair mass driver use from the surface, and it might also cause water to erode sediments and so then to lose atmosphere to the regolith.

Some time ago, I arrived at the thought that Venus is not a hell world, (Unless you try to use it like Earth), but could be considered to be like a big bowl of (Very Hot) pudding, that nature cooked up in natures kitchen.

I now think that the proper notion is not to try to turn these worlds into new Earths, as that is hard to impossible, and in doing so we may very well waste a vast set of resources.

For Mars tweaking the climate a bit might be useful, but para terraforming both on and under the planet, and in its orbits makes all the sense.

Venus being a vast store of materials, then the para terraforming would be in the atmosphere and in its orbits. But its maximum value will be as the huge bowl of pudding, that we might use to our purposes.

So, this is a different attitude, and I feel it is the one that could give the human race the most benefits.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terraforming_of_Venus
Quote:

Removal of atmospheric gas in a more controlled manner could also prove difficult. Venus's extremely slow rotation means that space elevators would be very difficult to construct because the planet's geostationary orbit lies an impractical distance above the surface, and the very thick atmosphere to be removed makes mass drivers useless for removing payloads from the planet's surface. Possible workarounds include placing mass drivers on high-altitude balloons or balloon-supported towers extending above the bulk of the atmosphere, using space fountains, or rotovators.

First of all, the reason to remove the "Pudding" would be to put it to good use. Trying to convert Venus to an Earth, would soak up wealth and probably produce poor results in thousands of years. As I have said I don't want to waste the "Pudding".

In the previous post the use of dust, and Oxygen were validated in a wiki, for use in mass driver propulsion systems. I have also, been working on how to eject ices as well, and consider that a bit more cumbersome, but also likely to be valid. So, then vast amounts of mass from various worlds could serve as propellant mass for mass drivers. The CO2 of Venus included, (As Iron impregnated dry ice), and perhaps even iron from the surface of Venus, eventually.

The Nitrogen of Venus and Oxygen from CO2 could fill a very large number of orbital habitats. Some Carbon and Sulphur might be used in the construction of those habitats, as well.

Rotovators might work to extract atmosphere. Those could be pushed with a mass driver method, hoping to gain more mass than you expel back to Venus. The use of magnetic bubbles pushed by the solar wind might also add orbital energy to those rotovators.

It appears that Uranus has a method to extract atmosphere with magnetic bubbles. Could we emulate something like that for Venus?
https://earthsky.org/space/uranus-atmos … voyager-2/
Quote:

Are giant magnetic bubbles depleting Uranus’ atmosphere?
Posted by
Paul Scott Anderson
April 28, 2020

So, then you somehow recreate that and then remove atmosphere of Venus to plasma in magnetic bubbles. Actually, Venus is often shedding atmosphere to a tail anyway.

Then somehow you have to convert that plasma back to a useful gas. I am rather sketchy on that.
Here is a bit of suggestive materials on that: https://physics.stackexchange.com/quest … -or-liquid

Though I'm not a physicist, it is my understanding that plasma can turn into gas (recombination) and gas can turn into plasma (ionization) but that no other physical phase changes can occur.

So, it might be a path to grabbing atmosphere mass. Rotovators may work as well.

This might be useful, the L2? https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … emispheres.

The Sun-Venus collinear Lagrange points L1 (sunward) and L2 (behind the planet from the Sun) points are key vantage points located about a million km away from the planet along the direction to the Sun which enable continuous monitoring of the planet's day and night hemispheres.
Author: Sanjay S. Limaye, Irina D. Kovalenko
Publish Year: 2019

It is not understood if the tail of Venus would be in the L2 of Venus. The solar wind may pull it "Sideways". I don't know. But the L2 might be a place where better cooling would be available in the direction away from the sun. Cooling might assist in converting magnetic plasma mass to gasses.

While it may become possible to mine the surface of Venus, I would think that it would be very difficult. Worlds exist which might be a better source of materials which could not be mined from the atmosphere of Venus.

To get those materials to Venus would be desired. I favor Mass Drivers at this time for the task.

We have Oxygen, dust, and Iron impregnated ice slugs as things that could be expelled from mass driver systems, to get made structures from the worlds further out to Venus. Gravitational assists, with possible Oberth Methods might assist, and then we might use aero capture at Venus to get the made structures into the orbits of Venus.

So, probably these made structures will include methods to aero-burn to the orbits of Venus, and likely water, which could assist in an aero-burn. Ablatives might be used.

Also, a modification of the Stokes "Tea-Pot" method.

A water vapor atmosphere inside of a metal bubble, with a big slab of ice might work, provided you could apply the cold of the ice slab to the "Boiler" surface.

Not certain how well it would work. I am really screwing off today, so maybe a picture:

A very simplified representation of a method. As I have said, the use of ablative heat shielding is also allowed to carry some of the heating burden.

Stoke Space will be using a related method, I feel: https://www.stokespace.com/

Donors of these objects could be Mars/Phobos/Deimos, the asteroid belt, including the Jupiter trojans, Callisto. All of these could build such made structures.

While these made structures would orbit Venus, they would be filled with Nitrogen and other useful materials and might actually then over time sail to other parts of the solar system as desired.

It is also possible that Venus would send dry ice and Nitrogen outwards as well.

Maybe just a bit away from Venus, maybe all the way out to Pluto and beyond, depending on energy resources available. (Fusion, mirrors).

So, then created "Land" would be sold for a profit, perhaps.

Done.

In venting some water as steam to complete to an orbit, some of that steam may accumulate in the atmosphere of Venus, (I hope), so then could be still recovered again for use in atmosphere or in orbit.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-17 13:56:05)

Void · 2023-02-17 14:49:18

Further thoughts. Lasers. So, the "Land" created, it might also export energy by way of laser beams.

How we might stop the knuckle draggers from using it to ill purposes, it a problem. Teaching them to walk on their two hind paws might be a desire.

But anyway, it they could export power from their locations much nearer to the sun, perhaps even from inside the orbit of Mercury, then this could be a type of power compatible with gravitational flybys of the Earth/Moon.

My feelings are that most likely it will mostly be prohibited to pass a radiation hazard past the Earth.

So, anyway these artificial worlds could export photons to the more outer solar system.

I would think that an intensity 2x that on Earth would be quite good.

Done.

Void · 2023-02-17 19:15:57

Another drawing: (Sunworld):

Rateher symbolic. Incorporating a heat engine into a habitat. Of course you want good control.

But you squirt water into the red zone, it vaporizes and you condense it back out in the blue zone. The green zone is supposed to be within human survival/comfort temperatures.

So, if they got good at this and made it relatively fail safe, these could be towed rather close to the sun.

They might orbit outside of the orbital plane of most of the inner 8 major worlds.

Being close to the sun, a combination of the solar flux and the solar wind should allow them to travel to each other rather easily, even though they might have to shift orbital planes. But they could also be in "Ring Groups".

Eventually the resources of Mercury and Venus and the icy worlds might provide a creation of many of them.

And they might send energy out to power ships, and perhaps even worlds. Fusion would exist, but if this is cheap, then it also might be employed.

A little towards a Dyson sphere, but not as much coverage, and leaving much natural light to shine on the planets.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-17 19:22:48)

Void · 2023-02-18 06:29:22

A restless night after a few hours of sleep. May help if I discharge what my mind is working on. Relates to this: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 70#p206170

A hybrid chemical propulsion method, steam into combustible metals.

The good news is that a lot is known about things that might burn in water, and especially hot steam, I presume:
Pyrophoricity:
https://umdearborn.edu/environmental-he … re%20items

So, hot steam generated by aero braking into the Venus atmosphere could be used in thrusters, but I am supposing that to run it though a hybrid rocket engine where the fuels are solids that would react with the hot steam, may work better for getting into a proper orbit.

I feel that metals in vacuum, and water stored as ice inside of the pressure vessel would keep very well over long periods of time. So, if you built the device say in the Asteroid Belt and used a Mass Driver tug to push the payload to impact the atmosphere of Venus, this might work well. The "Tug" would release the payload to the atmosphere and then swing by Venus to help get back out to the Asteroid belt.

I presume that this might be done for Mars or Earth, but Mars really may not need the water in orbit, and the atmosphere of Mars it seems is variable. Water and pressure vessels to Earth/Moon? Maybe not a bad notion. Could be valuable.

An engine as suggested in this post, might be self-sustaining, once lit, by heating the metals and passing some form of water into them.
This might be workable for the Tug, as it would swing past Venus, to do an Oberth burn.

If this sort of chemical propulsion could be built, then I do think that it could be kept very stable and there should be no boil off during transit.

Back to sleep, I hope.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-18 06:44:09)

Void · 2023-02-18 12:09:34

I do like my last post.

An interesting thing about living in orbital space in synthetic gravity machines is that power is more consistently available.

Now that we are asked to burn less stuff and use intermittent energy sources that are available on their schedule and not so much ours, the value of that is becoming apparent.

But materials are also needed, and in the right mix, that can be perfect. A distribution of materials and energy favorable to profits. Profit means that for our work we can get a rewarding situation.

I am not much of a sadist or masochist; those are the only people who would be unhappy about it. It does occur to me that some of our climate change religious members might fit into those slots.

Some of the like control, and to torment people, some of them have some need to atone for something??? I wish they would confess their own sins and not mine.

Venus would be a place to make these things, provided you could access at least the atmospheric materials to orbit.

I am wondering if the "L4" and "L5" of Venus would be good places to park an excess of these. Of course, you could fit a lot of them into the gravity well of Venus, but then if you have objects coming in to aerobrake, maybe it is better to keep the runways somewhat clear of old housing.

Due to the solar wind maybe the Earth's "L4" and "L5" might be a good place.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_tro … 7s%20orbit.

We have a couple of them, and they would be relatively easy to access from Earth, except that their orbits are inclined. I am still learning.

For these two types of Lagrange areas objects "Tend" to stay in the pockets for a while.

But you would need to have some energy source to actively maintain that. Solar wind might do.

But you might not want to have them bumping each other, so you would have to deal with the trojan asteroids already in the pockets, and I might think that mostly objects in these pockets should be secured to each other.

You would also have to consider NEO's that might collide with what is in there as well. You would need to perhaps know of them, and perhaps have a way to control them as needed, perhaps even to capture them and use them.

But I still have a lot to learn.

I guess at this point I might divide the solar system into 3 parts as concerns this. Dry=Mercury, Venus, Earth/Moon. Mixed=Mars/Phobos/Deimos, Asteroids, Callisto. Icy is most things outwards from Callisto.

There are exceptions, but as far as building materials for orbital structures, I think that is about correct.

So, if items partially built in the Mixed zone are sent to Venus in the Dry zone, they would have metals, ceramics, plastics, and water from the Mixed zone. They would go to Venus primarily to air brake into an inner orbit of the sun and would receive Nitrogen into them from Venus.

Then you want to clear Venus of them, so you load in people and flay them out of the Venus orbit using the solar wind. You might gradually guide them to a "L" zone somewhere. That would be an option.

The Fins have a nice idea about a "Mega Satellite" of such structures. Actually they feel that they can get Nitrogen from Ceres itself, and I will not try to disagree, They could be very correct.

https://trendywnauce.pl/en/life-on-a-me … 0near%20it.

https://phys.org/news/2021-01-physicist … ceres.html

https://www.9news.com.au/technology/meg … aa2e78b76a

In their concept, magnetic bearings would hold an array of habitats into a community. So, gyroscopic problems would be handled.

I am parallel to that. I would also like to find ways to travel between such without spacesuits, or spaceships. I have posted about such before.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-18 12:40:36)

Void · 2023-02-18 14:50:17

If anyone is wondering why I am nerding out on this site today, I am doing between housework items. I still have a cold, and don't want to be too public to spread it, so I am bored.

Void · 2023-02-18 14:54:10

As a solution for possible impactors of useful planets, I suggest the method of manufacturing habitats near Ceres, as the Finns, say it may have Nitrogen.

Then to send such a machine after one of the wandering asteroids which might become a threat.

So then perhaps to take one in tow to a "L4" or "L5" location. Mars has them, Earth has them, maybe Venus can have them. Maybe they could be dragged back into the asteroid belt. I would hope to use mass drivers to get the habitats to their asteroid partner, and then to use the solar wind to tow them into a "L4" or "L5" location or back out into the asteroid belt.

Converting the mass to useful purpose as they would go.

Done.

Void · 2023-02-18 15:33:04

I guess would like to change things here a bit, lets terraform Earth and Mars.

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 54#p206254

Quote:

Quote (Mars_B4_Moon):
How to pull carbon dioxide out of seawater
https://news.mit.edu/2023/carbon-dioxid … ation-0216
So, I think I know how to couple that with a useful process.
Here we go:
Even under water the contents of the bag should warm from sunlight, and you could have natural or assisted flow of nutrient rich water from below by thermal convection. But you could pump it as well if you wanted to.
Many places in the oceans are nutrient deprived, and yet have good sunlight. They are deserts.
Of course, this then requires the bag to be of a plastic, and it also needs a method to move up and down in the water column, to avoid damage from large waves.
The issue of plastics is corrupt behaviors to dispose of them into the oceans. The issue of microplastics has an unknown ending. So, far, I am not aware of people getting sick or dying from it.
The people farmers do not want plastics as it might solve problems. They want a problem they can solve by taking possession of the freedom of the common people. To enslave them. So, of course they do not want the problems solved. They want an excuse to take what does not belong to them.
Control, and the right to exploit.
You might notice that this method might also produce food using fertilizers that are in the deeper ocean waters.
If this were done on a body of water on Mars, the CO2 could become depleted, and if you kept pushing Martian atmosphere into the water, you would build up Nitrogen and Oxygen and Argon, I think.
There, I made the post "On Topic".
Done.

So, I would call that an underwater artificial tree.

The Earth's oceans have some deserts due to a lack of nutrients. You have to be careful, the environmentalists want to obsess about waters lacking Oxygen, which is a concern, but which is not what I am after. They are always wanting to take a dive down, not lift things up.

https://www.unh.edu/unhtoday/2022/07/no … an-deserts
Quote:

Ocean deserts typically exist in subtropical latitudes — centered around 30 degrees on either side of the equator — far away from the more biologically productive coastal regions. Letscher estimates that ocean desert ecosystems stretch across approximately 40 percent of the planet’s surface, making them the largest biome on Earth.

I don't hold all environmentalism as bogus, just the stuff that the left-wing and right-wing totalitarian people are trying to exploit for their agenda. Screwing with our individuality as they come from a long line of slavers, in my opinion. Same sort of actor's different uniforms.

https://www.earthdata.nasa.gov/learn/se … of-deserts

https://datalab.marine.rutgers.edu/data … nutrients/
Quote:

NUTRIENTS IN THE OPEN OCEAN – WATER COLUMN PROFILES
All plants, whether they are tomatoes in your garden, trees in the forest, or phytoplankton in the ocean require three things to grow – water, sunlight, and nutrients. In the ocean, as there is no shortage of water, the dominant factors impacting phytoplankton growth are sunlight and nutrients. Often in the open ocean, however, nutrients are at their highest concentrations deep below the sunlit surface layer of the ocean. In these areas, phytoplankton growth tends to be limited to the thin layer at the bottom of the surface mixed layer that has enough light to facilitate growth and abuts the nutrient-rich deep waters. If the surface mixed layer is too deep, by the time the phytoplankton cells are deep enough to reach the nutrients they need for growth, phytoplankton production becomes light limited rather than nutrient limited. The same processes that limit phytoplankton growth in the open ocean can lead to highly productive coastal margins as upwelling brings these nutrient rich deep waters to the surface – check out the Coastal Upwelling nugget.
This nugget explores water column profiles of two OOI Regional Cabled Array sites in the NE Pacific – Oregon Slope Base at the base of the continental slope and Axial Base to the east, 500 km offshore. At both sites, there is a clear surface mixed later with limited nutrients, though this layer is more pronounced at Axial Base. The highest nutrient concentrations are in the deeper waters. An interesting feature in the Axial Base profiles is the peak in oxygen concentration at the base of the mixed layer due to a thin layer of primary production where nutrients are accessible but the phytoplankton are still in an area with enough light to reproduce.

So, I feel that you could harness solar energy in the seas. It will be attenuated of course. But you could at least get some thermal energy.

As it happens plastics sometimes get collected into Ocean Gyres: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_gyr … que%29.%20
Image Quote:

Since plastic wants to rotate around in the Gyres, then lets set it up to do so.

These things would need to adjust depth to avoid waves and perhaps shipping. On occasion they risk washing up on an island. Usually, they will have to be free floating. So, that would need handling.

But solar thermal water convection could pull nutrients from the lower water into the enclosures where sunlight is then also sufficient.

There then you bring down the CO2 in the Oceans and then the atmosphere. I guess if someone wanted to concentrate CO2 out of the ocean waters into these bags, that might work well.

If the bags hold plants, then the plants might be processed for biofuels, maybe some food. Waste organics might be possible to drop to the ocean bottom to sequester Carbon for a while.

That's enough for now. Maybe it could be tied into OTEC methods or maybe not. The water might be warm enough for it to pay off. And as the water warms in the bags and is allowed to flow up from convection, then it might draw cold nutrient rich water up.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-18 16:51:45)

Void · 2023-02-18 16:53:42

Continuing with the previous post, I have wondered if you could use wave action to help pump water through the apparatus. Perhaps also to give some electrical energy, to run thing a bit.

It is possible that waves could propel the apparatus as well. I recall that there are boats that can do that.

An example: https://newatlas.com/autonaut-autonomou … sel/53949/

Not sure yet how to turn that upside down to propel a submarine device.

Anyway, if we want to drop the CO2 levels you need to find the gifts that nature offers, not try to make reality run backwards, with machines that will consume power to lower the CO2 levels. (Some such may be good to get more CO2 into the plastic enclosures).

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-18 16:59:58)

Void · 2023-02-19 10:31:53

This is a bit of a follow up. Sargasso Sea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sargasso_Sea
Image Quote:
Quote:

The Sargasso Sea (/sɑːrˈɡæsoʊ/) is a region of the Atlantic Ocean bounded by four currents forming an ocean gyre.[1] Unlike all other regions called seas, it has no land boundaries.[2][3][4] It is distinguished from other parts of the Atlantic Ocean by its characteristic brown Sargassum seaweed and often calm blue water.[1]
The sea is bounded on the west by the Gulf Stream, on the north by the North Atlantic Current, on the east by the Canary Current, and on the south by the North Atlantic Equatorial Current, the four together forming a clockwise-circulating system of ocean currents termed the North Atlantic Gyre. It lies between 20° and 35° north and 40° and 70° west and is approximately 1,100 kilometres (680 mi) wide by 3,200 kilometres (2,000 mi) long. Bermuda is near the western fringes of the sea.
While all of the above currents deposit marine plants and refuse into the sea, ocean water in the Sargasso Sea is distinctive for its deep blue color and exceptional clarity, with underwater visibility of up to 61 m (200 ft).[5] It is also a body of water that has captured the public imagination, and so is seen in a wide variety of literary and artistic works and in popular culture.[6]

So, if you are going to have underwater solar power this would be a better place for it.

So, it is possible that a underwater farm could come close to the surface during calm conditions.

So solar heat, can perhaps draw nutrients up from the deeps and into the sunshine.

If you did have small floats above it, perhaps they could be on spring loaded lines, so that some kind of bobbing action might generate power, or you might even have air bladders underwater with solar panels.

It is an interesting possibility.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-02-19 10:42:23)

Void · 2023-02-19 11:16:10

I want to come up with a transit ship to travel LEO<>Moon. I also hope it can help with space junk.

Maybe this could inspire it, I have been listening to it: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ki … %26ghpl%3D

To unseat the impediments that are against us.

Some existing notions:
This one technically has a heat shield which eventually burns up. But it converts motion of mass to heat.
https://screenrant.com/space-junk-drag- … to%20orbit.

https://astronomy.com/news/2022/04/how- … nk-problem

Anyway, they use a "Sail" to drag stuff to lower orbits and then into the atmosphere to burn up.
A few might use photons to navigate as well.

So, then this is sort of heat shield / parachute stuff.

I am tempted by the Stoke teapot method, but for the moment will try to adopt features of this item:

The mirror at least attracts me. As an air brake and power device as well. Traveling back and forth LEO<>Moon, it would be nice to at least have some gravity so the mirror as a centrifuge / flywheel maybe.

Time to finish getting up. I will try to post more about it later.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-19 11:31:28)

Void · 2023-02-19 13:29:46

So, I am hoping to get propulsion mass from the Moon, and just maybe from the Earth's atmosphere.

Very questionable if this can work out, I admit.

I am now looking to copy SpaceX just a little with their Starship.

I may or may not try to include the Stokes Teapot method.

I am rather interested in the radiative sail type of heat shield, and to not dive so deep into the atmosphere that it would burn un.

Ok this is supposed to be a collection of skydiving sails that also function as mirrors for power, or possibly solar panels.

And yes, it resembles Starship as the skydive method, but is not intended to go as deep into the atmosphere as Starship. In instead of cylinder and paddles, it is all mirrors and perhaps solar panels.

As Dr.Johnson has suggester Starship might tumble to generate up to .5 g, this would be able to spin to generate a minimal amount of g force for convenient while traveling in vacuum.

Unlike the paddles for Starship to some degree the movable mirrors will try to hold the ship from skipping off, or from diving too deep.

Tricky business I am guessing.

And for now that will do. Each mirror might be hinged and powerd to change the shape of the whole thing.

Copy Cat I R.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-19 13:41:21)

Void · 2023-02-19 15:28:24

The Angry Astronaut conveniently published this, which may indicate that the chemicals needed could be gotten from the Moon.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TheAngryAstron … ugh_could/

A good thing.

So, for a mass driver Oxygen or magnetic dust might be usable.

I also am not convinced completely that. it would be totally impossible to boil Oxygen in a steam thruster. Yes, the Moon has water, we think, but I don't want to see it squandered that way.

Probably Hydrogen/Oxygen are needed to launch off of the Moon.

I do not completely rule out a ship that can land on the Moon but think it not likely. I just want to be able to circle the Moon and then LEO and back again to the Moon.

Ballistic Capture to the Moon may also be a possibility.

So, then if loaded with materials, a ship might propel a payload to LEO, and maybe return to the Moon with Ballistic Capture.

This device may very possibly be robotic, so concerns for radiation may not be a major factor.

The propulsion device may stop at LEO, or might swing back to the Moon, but of course you would have to deliver something that could insert the cargo into LEO.

I am sort of thinking of Oxygen as a liquid, and materials to build things with.

I am dithering about it as actually I don't have anything certain in mind.

I also want to tie this into capturing major sized space junk. (Maybe).

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-19 15:38:22)

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