Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Void · 2023-02-01 19:48:21

I had a look at an ice sculpture and found that the ice was really clear.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_sculpture
Image Quote:

So, ice optics and mirrors and clear water may offer a technological pathway that is of interest.

Some of this also testify to the potential: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Ic … C2&first=1

In my created image at the top of this post, I imply a mirrored bottom for a "Canal". That is a cross section of a canal, which might be segmented like chains of bacteria. Nature often gives suggestions: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Ch … C2&first=1

We may have moving targets for the focus of mirrors, and we might also place movable mirrors in the water. Granted if critters grew on them, they would need cleaning. But you can to some degree control the nutrients available in the water, and I suppose some chemicals may suppress bacteria and algae.

In order to clean the outside of the canal segments a robot in the form of an arch on wheels would be used. If possible electrical suppression of dust, perhaps the use of compressed Martian air, and I suppose perhaps an electrostatic cleaning brush and whatever else works. The robot then could travel up and down a long chain of segments, cleaning. I suppose it might be solar powered.

The dome is intended to hold in something like 0 to 333 millibars above outside ambient pressure.

I don't want to overly define this notion as it should be possible to make various versions for various purposes.

It would not be impossible to have navigable connections between lakes, and sometimes locks. Underwater navigation might be possible, under ice. Locks might be very tricky, but I think they might exist is a smaller more pressurized enclosure.

But it might be an interesting way to live. You might even have somewhat transparent tunnels and underground cave habitats below them.
Then the mirror system to help heat the undergrounds or to generate electrical power.

That actually is likely to make more sense. You travel though underground tunnels in rock, adjacent to the lakes, and have pathways to solar lighted chambers in the water under the ice, and kept comfortable a lot of the time by an optical system including mirrors.

So, possibly these chains would pass north and south, from the polar areas to as low a latitude as was desired. The water would likely come from high latitudes and flow to lower latitudes in most cases.

So, I guess we might call this Ice/Water-Optics.

It then is possible like many solar concentrators to generate hot water. The water of the lakes might be ice water over perhaps just slightly warmer water, or if you wanted to you could branch some off to be solar heat ponds.

This is yet another way that you might have a submarine/house, where you could be flooded with ample sunlight by way of normal paths and mirror reflections as well.

This might be very suited to Mars, and could be very productive as per agriculture, and hot water available. And then so perhaps solar that is not panels. Even electric, should you store the hot water in thermal batteries, and then use the lake water as your heat sink.

Of course, you need a plan 'B' for dust storms.

A good thing in that situation is that the thicker the ice gets the more insulating it is. Northern lakes do not freeze to the bottom unless they are extremely shallow in the winter. Shallow ponds really. But of course, the Martian polar environment is very cold.

But should the light entering the lakes not be enough you can always use supplemental heating in the summer, perhaps heliostats mounted outside the lakes. And solar panels are not forbidden, nor is nuclear.

Done.

Anyway at least something amusing to think about.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-01 20:27:16)

Void · 2023-02-02 06:30:22

Query: Optical properties of ice and snow.

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Optical+p … 340b2ce4e6

An interesting article: https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/ … .2018.0161

In the previous post I have indicated the potential for movable optical structures such as mirrors and receivers in water, in some cases under ice. But of course, it is possible to have mirrors outside of the bodies(s) of water, that could by reflection provide additional photons.

In general, I have worried about Ultra Violet light, but now might welcome it. It is my impression that the Martian Atmosphere may at least in part block UVC, and I think that ice and perhaps water will block some UVB.

Query: Penetration of water by UVB

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Penetrati … a391b99f9f

So, if optics are submerged in water, a likely desire is to suppress the growth of biofilms on the parts, and also to maintain clarity in the water and ice. So, in this case UV Radiation might be welcome for the suppression of biology. In addition, this may add heat to the body of water.

Another possible method is to limit the amount of CO2 dissolved in the water. And so also to avoid the inclusion into the body of water of organic substances that can decay and give off CO2.

In practice, it might be useful to simply degas the water entirely as well as is practical, using a vacuum system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degasser

Degassed water would probably make clearer ice, as bubbles tend to make ice opaque, I believe.

I would imagine, if possible, the PH of the water might want controlling, probably to reduce corrosion of parts in the water.

So, then if you did capsule farming, that is vegetation in sealed containers, immersed in the water, you probably do need to have a method to protect the vegetation within from undesired UV radiation. You probably will prefer to avoid the effects of biology from leaking into the canal/lake.

For capsule farming, I prefer aquatic vegetation, but we have not domesticated many of those plants, Algae, or Cyanobacteria. But some may qualify.

One thing that is favorable about the Martian gravity is that the water column pressurization is proportionally less than for that of Earth.

Nemo's Gardens use an open bottom transparent diving bell: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemo%27s_Garden_(Noli)
For the moment I will not obsess about gasses leaking into the water. In the case of farming, it might be tolerated.
Image Quote:

For the dome/diving-bells the interior pressure will be set by the pressure of the water column at the base of the dome/diving-bells. So, the structure has to be strong enough to not rupture from the differential pressure at the top of the dome/diving-bells. On Mars that should be about .38 as much as for a water column on Earth. So, easier to avoid rupture.

A nice Video in this link:
https://www.businessinsider.com/nemos-g … 20humidity.

Query: Clearest water

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Clearest+ … f9bf7eb5d9

https://www.nomadicnews.com/clearest-wa … re%20items

Images: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Cl … C2&first=1

Clear Water: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZDQGNNqEA0

So, on Mars, the base temperature may be at 0.1 degrees C, or slightly more. Some crops that grow in air might do OK at night with that temperature, but some may require warmer nights. So, then include a tank of warm water somehow to the structure to keep temperatures up at night. But I prefer crops that are submerged in water, it is just that we do not yet have that many of them available.

For reasons of farming the polar areas of Mars may be preferred, as the summers are approximately twice as long as for Earth, and the poles are where much of the water ice is.

You would simply mothball the farms in the fall, and come back in the spring.

Interesting article: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/07/ … stainable/
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/07/ … stainable/
Image Quote: responsive_big_webp_oDV71AjevBkn5dlGSuc81Y3g210ZMG12qdc2I7v52dU.webp
Quote:

Underwater agriculture has the potential to eliminate the need for pesticides, reduce water use and cut carbon emissions.

One way of getting "Make-Up" water to a farm, is to melt or evaporate tunnels in the permafrost using a Laser. So then creating an ice cave. using evaporation you could simply compress the water vapor laden atmosphere in the tunnel created. Dirt should drop out of the way to the floor of the tunnel.

Or you might use a melt method. I think evaporation may be the best method. In the right slab of ice, the tunnels could be very long.

Enough for now.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-02 07:44:12)

Void · 2023-02-02 10:16:44

OK, back to the idea of a single loop Mars>Earth>Mars ship.

This source of Expendable Starships article suggests that there could be expended Starships to repurpose into such.

https://www.teslarati.com/spacex-starsh … musk-2023/

I did some posting about the Loop Ship: https://www.teslarati.com/spacex-starsh … musk-2023/
Quote:

Off topic just for a moment, I now can log on with just one try. Previous it might be 30 tries. Did you guys change anything? in the last day or two?
On the topic, and it's previous two posts. Quote:
From my perspective, not much has changed. The ONLY practical spacecraft propulsion method we humans can muster is good old reliable chemical propulsion of many tons of mass in accordance with Newton's Laws.
I am afraid I cannot hold that as valid. The "Dawn" mission was electric propulsion, although of course to get into space chemical rocket method was used. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawn_(spacecraft)
In reality we have not sent humans either to Mars or Ceres by any method, not yet.
I recently read an article about "Amping Up" hall thrusters. I think that this is it: https://www.futurity.org/hall-thrusters-2864142-2/ Quote:
SOUPED UP HALL THRUSTERS MIGHT GET PEOPLE TO MARS
JANUARY 26TH, 2023
POSTED BY KATE MCALPINE-MICHIGAN
"We named our thruster the H9 MUSCLE because essentially, we took the H9 thruster and made a muscle car out of it by turning it up to 11—really up to a hundred, if we're going by accurate scaling," says Leanne Su. (Credit: NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center/Flickr)
And now, I will try to explain the chances that a ship launched from the orbit of Phobos might loop around Earth, and then go back to Mars, to be sucked into its gravitational field, by Ballistic Capture. For the moment, lets suppose the propellant is Argon gotten from Mars. The energy source is not likely to be nuclear, as people would not enjoy an nuclear reactor doing a gravity assist with Earth. So, probably solar.
There is no law that says that the ship launching from Mars orbit could not use a tug for assistance to get out of the Martian gravity well.
That could be chemical or nuclear. If nuclear, it might take a different path back to Mars, or might not leave the Martian gravity well at all, itself.
If Ballistic Capture annoys you, then lets just use the boost from a gravity assist from Earth, and the Hall Thruster system to "Spiral" up to Martian orbit. But Ballistic Capture is especially good with electric propulsion.
But, Ballistic Capture anyway: https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti … e%20planet. Quote:
Getting spacecraft to Mars is quite a hassle. Transportation costs can soar into the hundreds of millions of dollars, even when blasting off during "launch windows"—the optimal orbital alignments of Earth and Mars that roll around only every 26 months. A huge contributor to that bottom line? The hair-raising arrivals at the Red Planet. Spacecraft screaming along at many thousands of kilometers per hour have to hit the brakes hard, firing retrorockets to swing into orbit. The burn can require hundreds of pounds of extra fuel, lugged expensively off Earth, and comes with some risk of failure that could send the craft careening past or even right into Mars.
This brute force approach to attaining orbit, called a Hohmann transfer, has served historically deep-pocketed space agencies well enough. But in an era of shrinking science budgets the Hohmann transfer's price tag and inherent riskiness look limiting.
Now new research lays out a smoother, safer way to achieve Martian orbit without being restricted by launch windows or busting the bank. Called ballistic capture, it could help open the Martian frontier for more robotic missions, future manned expeditions and even colonization efforts. "It's an eye-opener," says James Green, director of NASA's Planetary Science Division. "It could be a pretty big step for us and really save us resources and capability, which is always what we're looking for."

ADVERTISEMENT
The premise of a ballistic capture: Instead of shooting for the location Mars will be in its orbit where the spacecraft will meet it, as is conventionally done with Hohmann transfers, a spacecraft is casually lobbed into a Mars-like orbit so that it flies ahead of the planet. Although launch and cruise costs remain the same, the big burn to slow down and hit the Martian bull's-eye—as in the Hohmann scenario—is done away with. For ballistic capture, the spacecraft cruises a bit slower than Mars itself as the planet runs its orbital lap around the sun. Mars eventually creeps up on the spacecraft, gravitationally snagging it into a planetary orbit. "That's the magic of ballistic capture—it's like flying in formation," says Edward Belbruno, a visiting associated researcher at Princeton University and co-author, with Francesco Topputo of the Polytechnic University of Milan, of a paper detailing the new path to Mars and the physics behind it. The paper, posted on arXiv, has been submitted to the journal Celestial Mechanics and Dynamical Astronomy.
Ballistic Capture is said to be more flexible as per launch window, but cruse time is longer. But if we have a large ship with full life support to maintain human health, we might wish to consider the method.
But, a reminder, with electric propulsion you don't have to do either a Hohmann maneuver, or ballistic capture. The dawn mission is evidence that it was possible to creep up on both Vesta and Ceres without those, I believe.
I think we should evolve our thinking to the notion that Mars orbits are associated with resources for propulsion. The sun is a means for energy for propulsion, which gets better the closer to Earth's orbit the craft is.
For the moment can we call this a "Loop Method?". The method fills resources at the orbit of Mars, may be assisted on launch by a tug, swings down to do a pass of the Earth, and may modify its orbit by that gravitational pass, and then uses electric propulsion to complete the loop back to Mars. So, we may be using gravitational propulsion as well in the pass of Earth.
Other forms of propulsion that might be added are.
1) Sailing with Photons, (And that may include a laser assist).
2) Sailing on the solar wind. (That may involve spinning magnetic fields).
3) Oberth Effect. (That requires a strong propulsion such as Chemical or Nuclear).
4) Mass Driver. That might involve icy pellets with magnetic materials included, in order to shoot them out with a linear mass driver.
The four are under development or are considered by some to be possible.
But we definitely have Chemical, Electric Ion, and gravity assist methods of propulsion, they are real and have been done.
Things are evolving.
Done.

I have always felt that an "Expendable" Starship should allow for the removal and return of engines, and then to build large structures from the ships. They are just tin cans, without good radiation protection or synthetic gravity, but that could be fixed, by....
1) Getting mass from a Martian moon to create radiation shelter.
2) Adding hardware so that the ships can be joined to make a synthetic gravity method.
3) Perhaps adding some protective layer to the outside of the ships to reduce thermal cycling.

As for #1, it might also be quite possible to bring water up from Mars for radiation shielding.

Done.

So, you get 250 tons of cargo to orbit, you recycle the engines, and then you repurpose the body of the Starship.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-02 10:27:09)

Void · 2023-02-02 10:35:39

Actually, I am thinking that if you could put transparent balloons inside of the propellant tanks and the cargo compartments, then you can fill the tanks with water, that is not the Balloons, but the gap between the balloons, and the tank walls.

If the bags are transparent, you may shine light though them and have aquiculture in the water. Granted we might prefer sunshine, but this might work. Then throw in some NASA nuclear reactors to power the lights and such.

And I did think spin gravity where you had a collection of these expendable starships.

Actually, if you had bags of water attached to the walls, perhaps that would be the way to do it.

It might make sense.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-02 10:41:36)

Void · 2023-02-03 20:20:22

Well, I am bored, it is cold outside, and there are no good movies to go to so here I am.

I have been thinking about Saturn. Gravitation .91% that of Earth, (At 1 bar pressure, I believe).
Has moon Titan with a Nitrogen/Methane atmosphere. Has several small moons, and quite a lot of ice available.

Jupiter is interesting but gravitation very high, radiation a problem for inner 3 major moons. I think the Trojans are of great interest maybe Callisto.

But can we do a space elevator / tether thing for Saturn and grab lots of Hydrogen and Helium with Deuterium and Helium3?

We tend to think Fusion, but I think that solar is just possibly another way to go with very big mirrors in orbit.

Truthfully any icy world may have lots of Deuterium and Helion can manufacture Helium3, it seems so, that is another path.

A need for metals/heavy elements exists, but there should be some. But a relationship might exist where the inner planets send solar sails to impact the atmosphere of Titan, and then the resulting dust and debris, could be collected.

Indeed, I think that with Fusion, it would not be that hard to large domes of metals and ice and insulation, on Titan with a Nitrogen/Oxygen atmosphere inside, and plenty of lighting. Little farms/lakes. Nice.

And orbital habitats.

The Saturn system might export various light elements to the inner solar system. If Fusion works and you have a Saturn, then you have almost infinite energy to power spacecraft to haul those.

Seems like a nice dream at least for us who are stranded in time.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-03 20:32:48)

Void · 2023-02-04 10:01:20

It is debatable on how related to terraforming this is, but Titan may have such ice?: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech … sinks.html

In reality my interest is more to mixing tiny iron particles with this ice and making pellets to shoot out of a Mass Driver device. I think that at -200 C, very little rusting of the iron particles would occur, so it would remain magnetic and well dispersed in the pellets.

The snow line for water is between Mars and Jupiter, so lots of ice possible beyond that, and fossil ice also on Mars, and Ceres, and some Asteroids. Hydrated minerals also possible inside of the snow line.

What then about the atmosphere of Venus? Can we treat Dry Ice in a similar fashion and obtain throw mass for Mass Drivers?

I am rather interested in cyclers for Mars<>Venus.

This might speak something of the potential of Mass Drivers for space propulsion: https://www.daviddarling.info/encyclope … river.html
Quote:

Spacecraft-based mass driver
A mass driver carried by a spacecraft and used as its primary engine. With a suitable source of electrical power (probably a nuclear reactor) the spaceship could use the mass driver to accelerate pieces of matter of almost any sort, boosting itself in the opposite direction. Since current linear motors can accelerate cargo to 30 kilometers per second, an engine using one would have a specific impulse of about 3,000 sseconds. However, no theoretical limit is known for the size, acceleration or muzzle energy of linear motors, so this can probably be improved significantly. Efficiency is also quite good; linear motors can, with current technology, convert up to about 50% of the electrical energy into kinetic energy. Since a particle of mass m has momentum mv and kinetic energy mv2/2, the energy requirements vary inversely with the specific impulse, so in a design one must choose a trade-off between energy consumption and consumption of reaction mass. Since a mass driver could use any type of mass for reaction mass to move the spacecraft, this, or some variation, seems ideal for deep-space vehicles that scavenge reaction mass from found resources.

So, specific impulse: https://www.inverse.com/innovation/spac … e%20vacuum. Quote:

A 2013 version of SpaceX's website explained that the Merlin engine used for its current Falcon 9 launches had a specific impulse of 282 seconds for the sea level and specific impulse of 311 seconds for the vacuum. In September 2019, Musk wrote on Twitter that the sea-level Raptor engine is around 350 seconds, and it can reach 380 seconds for the vacuum-optimized variant.

So, that implies that a mass driver might do 10 times better??? (To be sure I have a very weak understanding of these things).

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8889556

We used to play with coils to launch things when I was in school

I have never liked launching objects out of a Mass Driver, until now. My feeling now is that projectiles made primarily of an ice, with magnetic dust in them should evaporate, and the dust should be pushed away by the solar wind. Projectiles can also be ejected off the plane of orbit of the ship by a small amount, to reduce collision possibilities.

Iron or Nickle being the probable dust to include, are available in the inner solar system at least, and probably in the outer as well.

Ices of CO2 and H20, are variously available almost everywhere.

Orbital Periods of Planets: https://space-facts.com/orbital-periods-planets/
Quote:

A year is defined as the time it takes a planet to complete one revolution of the Sun, for Earth this is just over 365 days. This is also known as the orbital period. Unsurprisingly the the length of each planet’s year correlates with its distance from the Sun as seen in the graph above. The precise amount of time in Earth days it takes for each planet to complete its orbit can be seen below.
Mercury: 87.97 days (0.2 years)
Venus : 224.70 days (0.6 years)
Earth: 365.26 days(1 year)
Mars: 686.98 days(1.9 years)
Jupiter: 4,332.82 days (11.9 years)
Saturn: 10,755.70 days (29.5 years)
Uranus: 30,687.15 days (84 years)
Neptune: 60,190.03 days (164.8 years)

Venus 224.70 days
Mars 686.98 days

Mars / Venus = 3.057320872274143. So, darn close.

So, if I understand cyclers, an orbit that crossed Venus 3 times would cross Mars one of those times. This might work OK for regular cyclers, and perhaps for semi-cyclers, if they are possible and practical.

Venus encounters in such a system are probably "Fly-By's", but something like the Starship could transfer from the cycler to an atmospheric entry of Venus, and to skip to an orbit of Venus. So, stuff could be moved to Venus from Mars/Phobos/Deimos, rather efficiently that way, presuming that an efficient method was available to load the cycler with "Stuff".

In reality you might build a canister version of Starship for that with not much for engines. It would then acquire orbit of Venus and stay there as useful mass.

It might be admitted that Venus orbit would be a good place to utilize solar energy, provided you had means of life-support and comfort in the orbit of Venus.

I will presume that these cyclers or semi-cyclers will not only use gravity assists to adjust their orbits but may use other propulsion methods available and helpful.

Methods may come into existence to mine the atmospheres of worlds. Venus, Mars, Titan, Saturn? Spinning tether methods, I think.
So, now if we are moving magnetic dust from Mars/Phobos/Deimos to Venus by drop off and Aerobrake, if the CO2 can be plucked from the atmosphere of Venus to orbit, then we can make propulsive pellets from dry ice mixed with magnetic dust.

This then can be delivered by Mass Driver methods to the Earth/Moon, or Mars/Phobos/Deimos, ect. by robotic craft.

Such craft might also resupply the cyclers or semi-cyclers as well, along their orbital paths. Nuclear is considered, but the sunlight near Venus is a rather good power supply, I would think.

Anyway, membership please object, if you feel that I have notable errors in my thinking on this.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-04 10:49:59)

Void · 2023-02-04 12:15:55

I am thinking of how to mine the atmosphere of Venus from orbit. Generally, the make-up momentum might come from using magnetic plasma bubble propulsion in orbit, likely powered with solar energy.

I think in terms of a rotovator tether system that can scoop up atmosphere and a magnetic bubble pushed by the solar wind to maintain the orbital energy or add it back in as you scoop up atmosphere.

The CO2 can become throw mass, where approximately 2/3rds is Oxygen and 1/3rd is Carbon. Nitrogen and other gasses, if collectable would serve other purposes.

Magnetic Dust could be delivered from Mars/Phobos/Deimos, at first. Later maybe from Venus crossing asteroids, maybe from Venus itself.

If Ceres is mined, then water ice and iron from that might push lots of mass to the orbit of Venus, perhaps to make orbital spin gravity habitats.

https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/planets/dw … /in-depth/
Quote:

Orbit
Orbits of Ceres (red, inclined) along with Jupiter and the inner planets (white and grey). The upper diagram shows Ceres's orbit from top down. The bottom diagram is a side view showing Ceres's orbital inclination to the ecliptic. Lighter shades indicate above the ecliptic; darker indicate below.
Ceres follows an orbit between Mars and Jupiter, near the middle of the asteroid belt, with an orbital period (year) of 4.6 Earth years.[4] Compared to other planets and dwarf planets, Ceres's orbit is moderately tilted relative to that of Earth; its inclination (i) is 10.6°, compared to 7° for Mercury and 17° for Pluto. It is also slightly elongated, with an eccentricity (e) = 0.08, compared to 0.09 for Mars.[4]
Ceres is not part of an asteroid family, probably due to its large proportion of ice, as smaller bodies with the same composition would have sublimated to nothing over the age of the Solar System.[52] It was once thought to be a member of the Gefion family,[53] the members of which share similar proper orbital elements, suggesting a common origin through an asteroid collision in the past. Ceres was later found to have a different composition from the Gefion family[53] and appears to be an interloper, having similar orbital elements but not a common origin.[54]
Resonances
Due to their small masses and large separations, objects within the asteroid belt rarely fall into gravitational resonances with each other.[55] Nevertheless, Ceres is able to capture other asteroids into temporary 1:1 resonances (making them temporary trojans), for periods from a few hundred thousand to more than two million years. Fifty such objects have been identified.[56] Ceres is close to a 1:1 mean-motion orbital resonance with Pallas (their proper orbital periods differ by 0.2%), but not close enough to be significant over

Interesting stuff, but I don't want to overthink this.

We do have the notion that Laser systems powered from the orbits of Venus, might send power to spacecraft, using a mass driver system, and so perhaps you could pull a lot of stuff from the Asteroids into the orbit of Venus.

And I think there will be cloud cities, and even craft that can go to the surface and collect regolith to bring up to the cloud cities.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-04 12:25:12)

Void · 2023-02-04 12:48:13

If I can argue that such a propulsion system can be a tool for Terraforming, then I have another thing to add.

If you shoot a pellet down the barrel of a Mass Driver, as it exits can you hit it with a laser pulse to vaporize it perhaps even to plasma?

Can you then impose a pulsed magnetic nozzle?

I would say I don't know how much use that can be, or how hard, but eventually it might be tried.

These pellets would be dirty ice and should vaporize well in proportion to the energy of the laser pulse.

But they are already going to be moving so fast.....I just don't know.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-04 12:49:31)

Void · 2023-02-05 06:10:45

Still looking at this form of water ice: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … d8f2e140c4

I don't know if it is the best one to shoot out of a Mass Driver, but it is interesting.

And the use of a laser as the finishing touch? Maybe.

I suppose some form or either steam propulsion or plasma shot out of a magnetic nozzle? https://news.sky.com/story/new-concept- … s-12202285

But really for now just shooting magnetic ice out of a Mass Driver may be quite good in some situations.

Power could come from solar or nuclear fission or maybe Helions Fusion reactors, (If it works).

CO2 Ice is a candidate which may be workable for Venus and Mars.

Atmospheric Mining: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_mining
Quote:

Methods of atmospheric mining
Various methods have been proposed to extract resources from the atmospheres of the giant planets. Due to the inherent risks in travelling into the atmosphere of a giant planet, most such proposals involve sending only robotic craft into the atmosphere, with any human presence limited to space stations based on one of the planet's moons and/or orbiting at a safe distance.
Aerostats
An aerostat would be a buoyant station in the atmosphere that gathers and stores gases. A vehicle would transfer the gases from the aerostat to an orbital station above the planet.[1]
Scoopers
A scooper would be a vehicle that gathers and transfers gases from the atmosphere to an orbital station.[1]
Skyhook
A Skyhook (structure) is similar to a space elevator, such a device would be used to pump gas to an orbital propellant depot.
Cruisers
A cruiser would be a vehicle in the atmosphere that gathers and stores gases. A smaller vehicle would transfer the gases from the cruiser to an orbital station.[1]

About Skyhooks: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyhook_(structure)
Quote:
Perhaps that could be appropriate for Venus. Venus has on a crude guess 100 times as much atmosphere as Earth, so lots of mass, if you could lift it to orbit.

Venus and the Solar Wind:
https://www.esa.int/ESA_Multimedia/Imag … lar%20wind.
Image Quote: Interaction_between_Venus_and_the_solar_wind_pillars.jpg

Venus is as large as Earth and it is difficult for its atmosphere to escape due to the planet’s gravity. The solar wind is the best source of energy to accelerate the upper atmosphere’s charged particles, giving them enough energy to escape. This is why Venus loses its atmosphere due to interaction with the solar wind.

A magnetic bubble turned on during certain parts of an orbit of Venus, may be propelled by the solar wind, where it is compressed by hitting Venus? While I have tended towards a tether method, I also wonder if a magnetic scoop could be used to grab ionized gasses.

If by some method atmosphere can be captured to orbit, then that might be very useful.

The Atmosphere of Venus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Venus

Venus Crossing Asteroids: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_V … or_planets

So, maybe these could be a source of materials for the orbits of Venus. Magnetic materials, I hope.

I think that for Venus the use of propulsion that sails on the solar wind or perhaps on Photons, could be very useful.

I am looking for mining the atmosphere of Venus to deliver Dry Ice to the Earth/Moon, as Mass Driver propellant.

Other gasses would have other uses. Nitrogen for Space Habitats, Oxygen the same.

So, if you could mix magnetic powder with dry ice in a ball mill to make a material to shoot out of a Mass Driver? Such materials might be delivered to other worlds, using the solar wind to conserve the mass.

Perhaps this method: https://www.space.com/31063-electric-sa … ation.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_sail
Image Quote:

So, in general, I think it is easier to ride the solar wind outward, rather than inward.

These materials shipped to Earth/Moon, Mars/Phobos/Deimos, Asteroids, that dry ice and water from space objects, along with magnetic powder may allow a method to ship built objects to Venus.

Those then might break into orbit using friction with the atmosphere, or a magnetic parachute, against the solar wind.

So, really it is not Venus or Mars, it is everything possible.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-05 07:17:37)

Void · 2023-02-05 11:12:27

Nothing much, just thinking about Ceres, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahuna_Mons
Image Quote:

From what I read; ice will quickly sublimate on the surface of Ceres. So, using ice pellets with magnetic dust mixed in should be OK, as the ice being blackened with the iron dust should absorb sunlight well enough for the ice to vaporize. But to be cleaner about it a laser blast might help.

I guess maybe some additional propulsion might be possible, don't know.

But the total amount of propellent built into Ceres is massive, and the gravity is low, so I guess it is a world worth looking into for sure.

Query: "Megga satellite for Ceres"

https://www.sciencealert.com/could-huma … anet-ceres
Image Quote:

Probably a space elevator makes sense also.

So then possibly canisters full of water might be sent to Venus, and to skim the atmosphere to achieve orbit.

Venus might send dry ice outward by way of the solar wind. I think CO2 ice could be used further out in the solar system, as the dry ice should sublimate quicker than water ice.

But it is true, you can use mirrors at Ceres to get a similar level of sunshine as Earth, so maybe Venus isn't that worth it???

Options don't have to be exercised. But it is interesting.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-02-05 11:38:35)

Void · 2023-02-05 12:59:35

I have been thinking further about thermal expansion of the pellets to dispose of them and also to hope to get more thrust from them.

A magnetic nozzle might work if you converted all the materials to a plasma, but that sounds troublesome.

Query: Temperature where iron loses magnetism

The Curie point of iron............

https://www.drbakstmagnetics.com/the-ef … magnetism/
Quote:

Curie point in metals, but it is 770 in iron, so it is at that temperature that permanent magnetic field is lost.

https://www.scienceabc.com/nature/if-ir … netic.html
Quote:

Iron stops being ferromagnetic at 1043 K (around 770 degrees Celsius/1417 Fahrenheit).

So, if we zap an iron impregnated ice pellet, then it may become an expanding cloud of vapor and magnetic iron dust. The expanding dust cloud of iron particles may react against a magnetic nozzle. But of course, the pellet material would already be moving very, very fast, so I don't know if a gain is achievable. Maybe if is squeezes the dust cloud. But you would not have to heat it to plasma.

Dry Ice might work better as it has a lower evaporation temperature and may not rust iron.

Generally solar is frowned upon in the orbit of Ceres, Fission Nuclear is likely to be nominated over it.

But what if solar concentrating mirrors we used to produce electricity and from that a laser beam to power a ship? Maybe???

Anyway, the next problem is how to handle the pellets. How to create them, and when to create them, how to use them. They will be magnetic, so that might help.

It occurs to me to wonder, has Ceres been collecting small objects for millions of years? Are the accessible?

So, then it might have been collecting dust to its surface for very long periods of time. Perhaps Ceres will be a "One Stop Shopping Center" for things that are wanted?

So, if you have so much propellant, then Ceres may be the place to get what we want and to ship it to other worlds.
I am of the opinion that lots of Iron and Nickle will be about.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-05 13:20:38)

Void · 2023-02-06 12:27:46

This fell into my lap today: https://phys.org/news/2023-02-hydrogen- … he%20poles.
Quote:

FEBRUARY 6, 2023
Study shows that hydrogen and carbon monoxide fuel ocean microbes from the tropics to the poles
by Monash University
Dr Rachael Lappan in the lab. Credit: Monash University

They did not study Methane, but I am sure it can be a similar story.

Quote:

A world-first study reverses the idea that the bulk of life in the ocean is fueled by photosynthesis via sunshine, revealing that many ocean microbes in fact get their energy from hydrogen and carbon monoxide.

Quote:

"The surface layers of the world's oceans generally contain high levels of dissolved hydrogen and carbon monoxide gases due to various geological and biological processes. So it made sense that oceanic bacteria used the same gases as their terrestrial cousins," Dr. Lappan said.

They still partly cling to a more classical notion of what powers life; I would expect that they think that the Oxygen comes only from plants. But I might be wrong about that.

One of the geological processes that creates the CO and H2, and I expect Oxygen, is radioactive decay.

Radiolysis: https://www.theatlantic.com/science/arc … ds/619030/
Quote:

SCIENCE
Earth’s Underground Worlds May Run on Radioactive Decay
No sunlight, no problem.
By Jordana Cepelewicz and Quanta Magazine

In my mind this brings up two interesting things. Some form of liquid water, nutrients, and radioactive decay could support microbes. (Already understood).

This may qualify asteroids as having had conditions for life.

Query: "Asteroid water and aluminum 26"
https://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/mine … 20silicate.

Quote:

They noted that any larger asteroid formed very early on in the solar system would have been heated to high temperatures by the decay of large amounts of aluminum-26, a radioactive nuclide, resulting in the melting of rock throughout the asteroid’s interior, along with chemical differentiation, such as the segregation of metal and silicate.

So, now, if you believe life came from abiotic processes, we have had them all over the solar system.

At some time for instance Vesta could have had melted water in its rocks, and chemicals produced from radioactive decay.

Earth might have just been infected by it.

We have microbes that "Eat Air": https://newatlas.com/biology/air-eating … her%20life.
They also get their water from Hydrogen in the air.

If we should look for life on Mars, it could have a metabolism that functions down to -15 C to -20 C and can get its water from Hydrogen.
The Hydrogen of the solar wind may mix with the atmosphere, and of course there is radioactive decay on Mars, and perhaps photolysis from UV hitting the atmosphere and surface.

http://endmemo.com/chem/vaporpressurewater.php
For -15 C the vapor pressure is calculated as 1.8753 millibar. It may be that such life could persist on Mars through its history.

-------
That is a background which is not strongly attached to Terraforming.

However, I have advanced the notion that it might be useful to set Hydrogen Bombs off in a relatively isolated ice body on Mars.

And repeatedly. The heat of it could be a power source, and the radioactive decay process could support biological activity.
Having learned the tricks of Helion Fusion, I anticipate that some Helium3 and Tritium would be created by each blast. After a number of years, the Tritium would decay into Helium3. Helium would also be created.

Just now I am thinking of Korolev Crater: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korolev_(Martian_crater)
Image Quote:

The trick would be to not breach the surface of the ice body, and to keep the heavy materials in the liquid water and to sink to the bottom of the created Lake/Sea. So, now we have a reservoir of heated water, or at least melted water, and a source of Helium3. We should also have a biome created where microbes will life off of CO2, CO, and H2. We may also pump Martian air into that water as it contains things useful to biology.

From this we can hope to get fuels and greenhouse gasses to release. Plastics maybe?

So, it would not be a Hydrogen bomb designed to Kill. I might have a fission reactor in it to allow the assembly to melt through ice.
You would pack it with "Surround" Materials which you would hope would be transmuted to decay isotopes, and perhaps even other useful materials.

I believe that Mars has 3 to 6 times the concentration of Deuterium as Earth water.

So, you would have a Hydrogen Bomb Neutronic process in the Lake/Sea, which would give you those things, and they you could extract Helium3 and Deuterium from the water, and that could support Aneutronic Reactors such as the Helion type.

I say have consideration of the possibilities.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-06 13:12:19)

Void · 2023-02-06 20:49:02

I feel a bit guilty, as I fear to disrupt the fine work the other members have done with plans to navigate between planets, but still I sort of am obliged to work on it. It may be that the various methods will eventually connect together, or that the separate systems would have value each on their own.

I am hoping that the Semi-Cycler can actually be possible and useful, but I also allow that it can become a full cycler, if that is the choice of actions. I have imagined a distinct world of its own, where possibly Starships might visit and exchange people in route at some points. In that I am not sure of the practicalities. I think for the Earth pass, the Starship would have to be in an extreme elliptical orbit and heading back to Earth in a path somewhat parallel to the Cycler. If that is possible it might use its engines to connect (rendezvous/dock). Then exchange people and then separate from the Cycler and hit the Earth's atmosphere.

I don't know if it can be done.

------------

However, I am getting a notion of a different process where at least two Starships would meet up with the Cycler, and trave to Mars on it.

I was thinking of a Cylinder but now think a disk(s) would be suitable. I am eager to be corrected should readers see flaws. I wish to dispose of them as soon as possible.

I am thinking of water jacketed garages for at least the crew portions of the Starships, and the water jackets would be used to grow plants of some kind by whatever means.

A curved mirror is the basic shape: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curved_mirror\
Image Quote: th?id=OIP.I-TGpuxOSFzzalRLxG3cBAHaHa&w=160&h=160&rs=1&qlt=80&o=6&dpr=1.1&pid=3.1

The Starship Garages would be housed in the concave of the Mirror. They will block some of the mirror, but the mirror could still be used as a concentrating mirror. The Mirror would serve as a Chassis for the assembled hardware. And there could be included a target to collect the concentrated solar energy. The Mirror would also be a protection from impactors from much of the sky.

It is not impossible that the Mirror could skip off of atmospheres, if that was a desire. Magnetic methods also would be possible.

There could be many configurations and methods.

Of course I want to consider sailing on the solar wind with magnetics. I also want to consider a propulsion method of a Mass driver, shooting out ice pellets laced with iron dust. When not using the mirror to skip, (Which I am not thinking is a huge draw), many containers of ice and iron and other stuff could be connected to the convex hub of the mirror. For Skipping, I guess perhaps they would be moved to the concave side.

I would hope to get a maximum g of 1/3 g to simulate Mars, in some part of the crew compartments.

https://th.bing.com/th?id=OIP.I-TGpuxOS … .1&pid=3.1

so as to not need to use propellants to start and stop spinning, the dark rotor may be spun to zero relative speed to the Starships, so that they can be connected into the garages. In order to do that then the Mirror has to survive being spun up more. Then when the ships are seated, the whole assembly can be reset to the same spin direction and speed.

To deal with drift, I think to use magnetics acting on the solar wind, to keep the combined spin as is wanted.

I only included the air braking notions to be complete. However, it is my impression that you could use a magnetic field striking the Earth's magnetic field to break a bit like a parachute, if you want to. Maybe like an airfoil.

The option to cook up more propellant for the Starships might exist. Probably from stored ices, and with electric energy.

To do an Oberth Maneuver around Earth or Venus or Mars (From Ceres), you might use various methods. The Mirror Ship might have its own engines, and perhaps would also be able to host other types of ships. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oberth_effect

I would hope that the rotor would actually have a passage in it so that people could move from one ship to another.

But I am sure refinements may be desired.

It might be that if Hall Thrusters were upgraded enough, they would be included as well.

So, the intent would be full life support, or as much life support as can be afforded.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-14 18:27:22)

Calliban · 2023-02-07 05:29:57

Isaac Arthur discusses the use of asteroids as interstellar spaceships.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=grfLUOOARBw

Whilst the use of cyclers within our solar system do hold some promise, I cannot see asteroids being a viable option for interstellar travel. Isaac Arthur is talking about building engines that accelerate asteroid ships to a significant fraction of C. That is always going to be an expensive engineering task. Why would we build enormous engines to accelerate gigatonnes of dumb rock, rather than a purpose engineered space craft?

One option for interstellar travel would be to use an engine to decelerate the relatively modest orbital speed of an Inner Oort cloud body. This would then fall towards the sun and could then be boosted to solar escape by Jupiter gravity assist. That is an almost free propulsion system that avoids the cost of building an engine to accelerate dumb rock. Another cheap propulsion system is a magsail, which could intersept millions of square kilometres of solar wind, to accelerate the ship to 100km/s as it heads out from the sun.

But crossing interstellar space at ~10-100km/s would imply a journey time of 10,000 - 100,000 years to reach the nearest star. It just doesn't seem very practical to plan for a journey that long. Real machines and structural elements wear out over a period of centuries at most. Such a ship would need to be a self sustaining world, capable of building and recycling internal components over geological timescales. Such a ship would become a kind of galactic cycler, that would dispatch colonisation ships to any star that it passes within ~0.1ly. But it would need to be self sustaining, with a closed internal ecosystem capable of surviving for hundreds of thousands of years as it slowly journeys between the stars. Humans would need to maintain a sort of symbiosis with other life and self replicating machines. Within the cycler, civilisations would rise and fall. Thousands of generations would be born and would die. Somehow, through all of that, they would need to stay on mission.

The counter argument is that if human beings are to colonise the outer solar system and live there long term, we will eventually need to build those self-sustaining ecosystems anyway. That conclusion remains the same regardless of whether those ecosystems remain in orbit about the sun or are dispatched on long interstellar journeys. There are similar requirements to build self sustaining ecosystems that are fit for long term habitation. Bringing life to the solar system assumes that we are planning long term. So perhaps building ultra slow world ships is an entirely valid idea when one considers it as part of humanity's long term goals. The solar system is 4.5 billion years old. If humans settle the outer solar system, we should aim to build things that last.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-02-07 05:55:07)

Void · 2023-02-07 10:28:24

Thanks for your view Calliban. https://www.bibleversesnow.com/through- … 0of%20time. Quote:

By Lawrence August 14, 2022 7 Mins Read To “see through a glass, darkly” is to have a distorted or incomplete perception of reality. The phrase is taken from the teachings of the Apostle Paul, who emphasizes that while we do not currently see clearly, we will do so at the end of time.

It is rather true.

The solar system and Oort Cloud are likely to keep us busy for some time, if we manage to muddle through with an accumulation of abilities continuing.

I am getting to the point where I think that worlds like Venus, Mars, Ceres, and Titan may become significant places for human operation not too far from now, presuming humans don't get really stupid.

My opinion is that likely there are a lot of small objects you might hit on a trip to another Star, so I am dubious about that kind of interstellar travel. If we send robot probes, we will likely find out. I think for such explorations though we will want very big telescopic means though.

How to detect rogue objects will be important for avoidance of collision, but also if they are there then they may be of value themselves.

I think I recall you suggesting that a ball of water could be a world in itself. Of course, you need the other elements, not just Hydrogen and Oxygen. But I think you indicated that a 50 kilometer object might have sufficient pressurization inside of it.

It has been considered likely for a long time that building artificial worlds could be very productive. And we already know of lots of materials for it.

An option I have considered for icy worlds would be that solar sails could be sent out to seed these worlds. They would perhaps be manufactured on Mercury or our Moon or the Asteroids. In the case of Titan, Triton, and Pluto, they perhaps could burn in the atmosphere, and so give a dusting of heavier elements to the surface of those worlds. That then to be collected.

But impacting ice moons might work also. No need to do it for Callisto, as it appears to have a distribution of Materials. But for Uranus, it might be tried, (For a moon of it).

And then there will be the Kuiper Belt, and the Oort Cloud. So, by that time human habitation could be as far as 2 light years from Earth, in a spotty manner.

From there you might start working with other stars Oort Clouds if such exists, and Rogue/Nomad/Steppenwolf planets/objects.

Detecting those objects would be very helpful.

Should some form of humans' heritage survive, then stars and other objects drift about, so, over endless time, access to new objects will continue.

Some rogue objects of sufficient size will have collected Deuterium and Helium3 after being ejected from their star systems. If they had Volcano's like Mars, or plate tectonics like Earth then there would be rock exposed above thick ice.

If they were of the right size, then they would lose regular Hydrogen. It might even be possible to manufacture a Helium/Nitrogen/Oxygen atmosphere for them and maintain it.

As for Brown Dwarfs and Red Dwarfs which seem to be of significant numbers, Dry worlds may be preferred. Worlds without atmospheres, perhaps, but with ice deposits.

Of the potential worlds of Proxima Centauri, I am most interested in 'd'. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxima_Centauri
Quote:

Proxima Centauri has two known exoplanets and one candidate exoplanet: Proxima Centauri b, Proxima Centauri d and the disputed Proxima Centauri c.[nb 3] Proxima Centauri b orbits the star at a distance of roughly 0.05 AU (7.5 million km) with an orbital period of approximately 11.2 Earth days. Its estimated mass is at least 1.07 times that of Earth.[16] Proxima b orbits within Proxima Centauri's habitable zone—the range where temperatures are right for liquid water to exist on its surface—but, because Proxima Centauri is a red dwarf and a flare star, the planet's habitability is highly uncertain. A candidate super-Earth, Proxima Centauri c, orbits roughly 1.5 AU (220 million km) away every 1,900 d (5.2 yr).[17][18] A sub-Earth, Proxima Centauri d, orbits roughly 0.029 AU (4.3 million km) away every 5.1 days.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxima_Centauri_d
Quote:

Proxima Centauri d
Article
Talk
Read
Edit
View history
Coordinates: Sky map 14h 29m 42.9487s, −62° 40′ 46.141″
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Proxima Centauri d
Artist’s impression of Proxima d (close-up).jpg
Artistic depiction of Proxima Centauri d, with Proxima Centauri and Alpha Centauri A & B visible in the background
Discovery[1]
Discovery site VLT-ESPRESSO
Discovery date 2020
Detection method Radial velocity
Orbital characteristics[1]
Semi-major axis 0.02885+0.00019
−0.00022 AU
Eccentricity 0.04+0.15
−0.04
Orbital period (sidereal) 5.122+0.002
−0.0036 d
Semi-amplitude 0.39±0.07 m/s
Star Proxima Centauri
Physical characteristics[1]
Mean radius ≙0.81±0.08 R?
Mass ≥0.26±0.05 M?
Temperature 360 K (87 °C; 188 °F)
Proxima Centauri d (also called Proxima d) is a candidate exoplanet orbiting the red dwarf star Proxima Centauri, the closest star to the Sun and part of the Alpha Centauri triple star system. Together with two other planets in the Proxima Centauri system, it is the closest known exoplanet to the Solar System, located approximately 4.2 light-years (1.3 parsecs; 40 trillion kilometres; 25 trillion miles) away in the constellation of Centaurus. The first signs of the exoplanet emerged as a weak 5.15-day signal in radial velocity data taken from the Very Large Telescope during a 2020 study on Proxima b's mass. This signal was formally proposed to be a candidate exoplanet by Faria et al. in a follow-up paper published in February 2022.[2][1]
Proxima d is a sub-Earth at least one-quarter of the mass of Earth (or twice the mass of Mars), orbiting at roughly 0.029 AU (4.3 million km; 2.7 million mi) every 5.1 days.[2] It is the least massive and innermost known planet of the Proxima Centauri system. It is the least massive exoplanet detected with the radial velocity method as of 2022. Proxima d orbits too close to its star to be habitable, and receives about 190% of Earth's irradiation—assuming an Earth-like reflectivity, its equilibrium temperature may reach 360 K (87 °C; 188 °F).[1]

I am guessing that it is either tidal locked, or rotating like Mercury perhaps. In either case there could be icy deposits on the planet. It's gravity being lower then Earth but greater then Mars, it may be practical to lift mass from the world.

If tidal locked you hide from the radiation on the dark side of the planet, if rotating then you might hope for deep craters at the poles.

If this is often replicated for Brown Dwarfs and Red Dwarfs, then there is endless potential out there.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-07 11:06:22)

Void · 2023-02-07 13:52:30

I thought this was "A picture is worth a thousand words".

Query: "utube, walking on clear ice on Lake Superior"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=utube%2C+ … 4ba3cfb45d

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ut … &FORM=VIRE

So, optical grade ice is possible: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/xn7Uv0brfNk

https://www.yahoo.com/now/crystal-clear … 22735.html

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-02-07 13:57:37)

Void · 2023-02-07 14:00:54

I want to return to this: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 85#p205785

I want to investigate the possibility of a special maneuver.

Could this use a magnetic field to slow down into the Earth's magnetic Field, making it easier for ships like a Starship to connect to it? Basically, land on it?

Then can it use a gravitational assist and possibly a Obert maneuver to set itself on a path to a more outer planet?

The mirror suggests a on board power supply. The ability to do magnetics also may provide resources for further propulsions on the way to the target planet.

So, there may be some room to make-up for "Slop" (Errors, after the encounter with Earth, and all the orbital propulsion does not have to only be chemical or gravitational.

I think I would like to consider the craft to be a "Spaceship Carrier".

Unlike a standard cycler of consideration previously, this might have enough life support capability to get people back to a safe location even if there is a mishap in navigation. But it might take time.

* A further note: The rotor which will include the protective "Garages" for the Ships does not have to impair the mirror. It could also have a mirror that faces the target.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-07 14:10:13)

Void · 2023-02-07 21:16:15

Back to ice

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?&q=u … ajaxhist=0

It sort of brings up a question. Since most of the ice wants to condense at the poles of Mars, might it make sense to make low pressure domes and clear ice as solar receivers?

And then use mirrors in orbit to add photons. And even send microwaves. Where at this time Martian polar areas are either dirt colored or even opaque ice reflective colored, if you can get the bulk of the photons into the water under ice under domes, then you actually warm Mars up, and create a vast artificial biome.

And you can have fission and maybe fusion reactors to help as well.

Just a thought.

Done.

Because of mega floods in the ice age, I would fear to directly undermine the ice caps with melting. Maybe the trick would be to evaporate them from the top and hope that the evaporated water will snow somewhere. And then to incorporate those snows into ice covered dome covered pools.

Harmonizing is supposed to be a Chinese method, it is not western. But I think it is a sort of "Go with the flow" thing. That is the water wants to be at the poles, so don't fight that but bend the water into liquid with ice on top and domes on top of that. At least that is my interpretation.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-07 21:30:39)

Void · 2023-02-07 21:40:29

Not much happening here at this time, and I have been going on and on about ice covered lakes so an attempt to visualize what we might create on Mars.

Really sorry about the language, but it is glorious: https://www.facebook.com/uniladmag/vide … 214258089/

Ahh....Kids and silly people don't take stupid risks. It's hard to see how thick the ice is.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=wa … M%3DHDRSC3

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?&q=w … ajaxhist=0

Well, you might see that it would not be impossible to have a mirror system under the ice to focus light on plants, or to generate warm or maybe even hot water.

It might be a challenge, but I think it could be done.

For Mars that could be of value.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-07 21:55:37)

Void · 2023-02-08 10:10:47

I want to study this item. I think it indicates that they have a method to react to the Earth's magnetic field similar to aerobraking.

I am wondering if it could possibly work for Mercury.

Search: "A Plasma Aerocapture and Entry System for Manned Missions and Planetary Deep Space
Orbiters
MSNW LLC
.
A Plasma Aerocapture and Entry System for
Manned Missions and Planetary Deep Space Orbiters"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=A+Plasma+ … 781a8b13ae

https://www.nasa.gov/directorates/space … netoshell/

I recall reading that braking against the magnetic field of Earth is possible, but I will have to search to see if I can find that again.

Done for now.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-08 10:17:39)

Void · 2023-02-08 14:20:01

I am beginning to be partially aware of how some things work, like heat shields, and various type of space sails.

So, thing have come to my mind today that maybe we should label as "Maybe's". That way (th) may not get to0 upset. Kids, if there are any consider my materials as much as questions and suggestions as to be firmly validated.

There that should shield the schoolchildren from misdirection.

If no one corrects me then I feel partially excused if something I speculate on is wrong.

First of all, I see an inverse relationship between a Parachute and a Capsule traveling through the air. A parachute presents its concave surface the resisting air, and the Capsule as space defines it presents its convex surface to the resisting air.

This device could be reconfigured to do either: (Think Transformer Robot):

Last edited by Void (2023-02-08 14:25:09)

Void · 2023-02-08 14:27:22

So, far I have included the functions of Flywheels, Mirrors, Radiation Shelters, and life support into the device.

And contrary to my expectations I also want to include high altitude aerobraking and aero skipping to the device.

In at least one case this could be useful. Venus. And Venus has a tail defined by the collision of the solar wind with the atmosphere of Venus, where special manipulations might work. That could also include magnetic braking and perhaps accelerations.

If the atmosphere of Venus can be mined, then there could be cargos to carry outward. The most desired substance could be dry ice. Maybe Nitrogen as well.

So, a ship aero braked to the orbit of Venus might take these on board in bulk.

The main aero brake device would be the mirror. We could put special substances on it as tiles or ablation methods, but if it is Stainless Steel, we might be able to stay in rarified atmosphere and not exceed the melting point of the device.

And I find this exciting. The closest method already in use is to use a solar photon sail to drag space junk down.

Things having more history are ablatives, and ceramic tiles. I also am going to guess that some active cooling using the "Sweat" method have been tested, in fact I know that SpaceX did ground testing of it.

Stoke Space seems to be developing a "Tea Pot" method, which I am surprised is possible. I was wondering about it. I am so happy that they will try.

The "Mirror Method" however is yet another animal. The idea is to use impact of air and its compression >>>soak to the mirror >>> conduction to the reverse side >>> radiate to the universe. Certainly, it will have its limitations, but I am guessing it cah handle temperatures of several hundred degrees without melting.

Melt points of Stainless Steel: https://www.theworldmaterial.com/meltin … %20rows%20
Quote:

Stainless Steel Melting Temperature Range

Stainless Steel Melting point (°F) Melting point (°C)
304, 304L, 304N 2550-2650    1400-1450
316, 316L, 316N 2500-2550    1375-1400
201    2550-2650    1400-1450
202    2550-2650    1400-1450

So, you might have a Steel Parachute glowing red, but I would suggest trying not to test it that hard.

A possible action was that it swung around Earth prior to an encounter of Venus. It probably carries very little cargo. Maybe some iron dust. If nearing Venus you can magnetically brake against its magnetotail, then fine. Eventually you have to do actual mechanical impacts of air molecules.

So, supposing you got an orbital capture to Venus, then you load up with stuff, probably Dry Ice, maybe Nitrogen. You might unload Iron dust and a few other things.

You want to depart. You have a mirror power system and the sun's strength is about twice that of on Earth, maybe even a bit more.

So, you have power to inflate a magnetic bubble, and you head out.

When you get to Earth, you either dump your cargo and it has to aerobrake to Earth/Moon, or you might go ahead and so some type of capture to Earth/Moon.

While magnetics can be made to sail into the sun like tacking with the wind it is hard. But if your ship is lightened up by off loading the Dry Ice and Nitrogen and only taking on a bit of cargo such as iron dust, maybe you can do it. But a Mass Driver that use iron powder and dry ice might help you out.

But if you did not stop at Earth but dumped your cargo to be responsible for its own capture, then you just swing around Earth, and head back to Venus.

Got other things to do, but though I might present this.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-08 14:56:34)

Void · 2023-02-09 10:08:32

Continuing from the previous post:

But if you did not stop at Earth but dumped your cargo to be responsible for its own capture, then you just swing around Earth, and head back to Venus.

I am aware that Ballistic Capture is considered possible Earth>Moon, and Earth>Mars. I am wondering if Venus>Earth/Moon is possible.

So, if you have an engine like this:

And load it up with stuff from Venus, Dry Ice being the main item of cargo, then it has a very good slice of solar power on its way from Venus to Earth. Much better than Earth to Mars. The combination of engine and cargo may go to a Ballistic Capture to Earth/Moon. The Cargo may be handed off to a path to capture, and the engine can just keep going to do a gravitational slingshot around Earth to go back to Venus, and as arriving to Venus may use magnetics and aero capture to again get into orbit of Venus.

A much smaller propulsion method would help to guide the cargo to Earth/Moon proper orbit, with little propulsion needed.

So, for Mars<>Earth/Moon, things would be done differently. I am presuming that water ice would be the cargo, and it would be a possibility to use a Ice Pellet mass driver to push the cargo to Earth. The mirror would still be a power supply. It is possible to use magnetics to head into the solar wind, but I don't know how useful that would be. So, then this engine might do a pass by of Earth, and some sort of aerocapture might be used for the ice cargo. Then the engine would simply loop back to Mars to do a ballistic capture. The engine might aerocapture to Earth using a big mirror, but some danger would exist for crashes doing that, and if it had nuclear fission on board, that would not be a welcome sort of crash.

I suppose I could continue, but I think I have covered the basic potentials.

-----------------

I wonder about small asteroids crossing terrestrial planet orbits.

Could an engine or collection of engines go around munching on those, and continuously growing?

They would have the propulsion measures of solar wind, photon momentum, and perhaps icy mass driver.

One way to get rid of planet killers would be to eat them and move the mass to less dangerous orbits.

Oh well!

Perhaps they can be parked into Trojan pockets as built materials. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_(celestial_body)
Image Link:
Quote:

Trojans by planet
Planet Number in L4 Number in L5 List (L4) List (L5)
Mercury 0 0 — —
Venus 1 0 2013 ND15 —
Earth 2 0 2010 TK7, 2020 XL5 —
Mars 1 13 (121514) 1999 UJ7 many
Jupiter 7508 4044 many many
Saturn 0 0 — —
Uranus 2 0 2011 QF99, 2014 YX49 —
Neptune 24 4 many many

You can see the table above in proper format inside of the parent link attached above.

It looks like there are natural trojans for Venus, Earth and Mars. So, those might be good places to start on those materials, and then to start fetching wanderers which may present danger to a planet, to these L4 and L5 locations. Building 6 new worlds out of those for Venus, Earh, and Mars.

It apparently is relatively easy to keep materials inside of those gravitational pockets.

So, then these might be associated with Cyclers of some type, and of course with other types of spacecraft.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-09 11:36:00)

Void · 2023-02-09 11:24:52

The question of spinning disks.

I have already dabbled in this, thinking that a mirror and other mass may serve as a flywheel. Bearings may allow another object to spin at a different rate and even in an opposing direction. I do not know everything I might want to know about this.

For example if we had tow Standford Torus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_torus
At some risk we could connect them with bearings and spin one up to 1 g in one spin direction and spin the other up to 1 g in the other direction.

We could also use this as a power storage device, but that is a deviation from my main focus here, not a bad one though.

If you wanted to you could draw energy from the flywheels and spin them both down to microgravity, if for some reason you wanted to. However, getting to zero spin in the real world would probably need supplemental forces such as manipulating against magnetic fields around you and if necessary, thrusters.

So, it is possible that a spin pair of disks could have a net null spin, even if spinning in opposition.

I do not understand what the gyroscopic of this would be.

Obviously if these things would impact each other, you would have a centrifugal explosion. So, I am one who would not want that so serious concern needs to be applied if something like this were built.

I have been thinking about it for this diagram of a supposed "Spacecraft Carrier".

I have thought that at times the rotor can be spun to a "Null Reference" relative to an approaching spacecraft(s).

Then when the spacecraft have been docked and then further connecting devices applied, the rotor and mirror disk will gradually merge to the same spin.

Balancing pairs of ships might be easiest if they are of equal mass and proportions. Some tricks might be used if they are not. Positioning, and also water ballast tanks. The ballast tank would also be for agriculture and radiation protection. They might be cylindrical so portions of a spaceship could fit into them.

Such carriers may use the solar wind as supplemental propulsion. I would also hope to use spinning magnetic fields to modify the nature of the spin of the total device. For the moment imagine that the rotor with ships has merged rotation with the Mirror and that everything is safely locked down.

I am trying to avoid the use of propulsion gasses tossed overboard to regulate the spin and spin orientation.

So, that is sort of what I am after.

Oh, sometimes the perimeter of the mirror would have a rather high spin, so I have imagined a "Spiderweb" of cabling to give it good tensile strength. Keeping in mind that I also intend that this mirror structure is also to serve as a heat shield at times, to slow the craft into orbit around some worlds.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-09 11:47:42)

Void · 2023-02-12 13:17:55

I have been considering all the bits and pieces around the solar system. I am not comfortable with my level of vision yet. But I wanted to capture this article: https://astrobites.org/2014/11/10/most- … c%20orbits.

So, from the inner solar system to very far out are various kinds of worlds.

I am thinking of "Kits" to find ways to deal with them.

I feel I want more rest.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-02-12 13:19:57)

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