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#801 2023-01-25 07:27:51

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,380

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

This can perhaps explain a little bit: https://www.reddit.com/r/titansspace/co … routes_to/

Specifically for Mars: https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti … e%20planet.  Quote:

Getting spacecraft to Mars is quite a hassle. Transportation costs can soar into the hundreds of millions of dollars, even when blasting off during "launch windows"—the optimal orbital alignments of Earth and Mars that roll around only every 26 months. A huge contributor to that bottom line? The hair-raising arrivals at the Red Planet. Spacecraft screaming along at many thousands of kilometers per hour have to hit the brakes hard, firing retrorockets to swing into orbit. The burn can require hundreds of pounds of extra fuel, lugged expensively off Earth, and comes with some risk of failure that could send the craft careening past or even right into Mars.

This brute force approach to attaining orbit, called a Hohmann transfer, has served historically deep-pocketed space agencies well enough. But in an era of shrinking science budgets the Hohmann transfer's price tag and inherent riskiness look limiting.

Now new research lays out a smoother, safer way to achieve Martian orbit without being restricted by launch windows or busting the bank. Called ballistic capture, it could help open the Martian frontier for more robotic missions, future manned expeditions and even colonization efforts. "It's an eye-opener," says James Green, director of NASA's Planetary Science Division. "It could be a pretty big step for us and really save us resources and capability, which is always what we're looking for."


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The premise of a ballistic capture: Instead of shooting for the location Mars will be in its orbit where the spacecraft will meet it, as is conventionally done with Hohmann transfers, a spacecraft is casually lobbed into a Mars-like orbit so that it flies ahead of the planet.

So, a capture to Mars, would be then end of the Cycle.  No heat shield needed, but not forbidden either.

The beginning would be departure from Mars orbit, to swoop down to do a flyby of Earth.  So, gravitational factors will to some degree provide propulsion.  So, the Martian orbit would be the "Home" orbit.

There are at least 5 worlds that can provide supplies in the Martian "Home" orbit Mars, Phobos, Deimos, Earth, Moon.

Most supplies from Earth and Moon would be delivered by robotic crafts, "Perhaps" using electric propulsion of some kind.  They would deliver to Martian orbit.

As the semi-cycler could dwell in Martian orbit as long as is desired, it could pick a timing to leave orbit on a presumed intercept of Earth.  I believe that some of the propulsion would be by having the energy of orbit of Mars oppose the energy of orbit of the sun.

I don't want to limit options.  Just now I want a method that might be workable.  It is possible that the ship would have stocked up on lots of combustible propellants while in orbit of Mars.  Lots of water ice and dry ice could be included for later use.

But some method of electric propulsion could be included.  Electric ion propulsion or maybe plasma bubble along the way at some points.

On a wild guess the number of people headed from Mars to Earth would be 1/10th of the amount that get on for the trip back to Mars.

The orbit could be modified, to make the work that the taxi has to do less.  So, I would suppose that it would be better for taxi to intercept the ship before a gravitational flyby of Earth.  In the gravitational flyby of Earth, the use of the Oberth effect would be wanted.  In the completion of route to Mars, plasma bubble drive might be very useful.

So, the missions start from Mars, and Earth is just a flyby, perhaps only collecting people to visit/emigrate to Mars.

That is a rough view.  Special items of manufacture may be pushed out to Mars orbit by robots as I have mentioned.  Electric rocket or Plasma Bubble as possible methods, but Nuclear Fission might be OK, because in the orbit of Mars, those reactors might be very useful.

That is a very rough view.

Done.

I am very sure that this notion would come sometime after Starships have been operating on their own.

It may be possible that a Starship delivering people to the semi-cycler could be refilled from the propellant depot of the semi-cycler and may have a way then to return to Earth in an Early fashion.  If they could get the people onto the ship just prior to the flyby/Oberth maneuver, then the ships might do a pass into the Earth's atmosphere and land.

Certainly, I am not an expert, but actually this half-baked plan may have some merits.  If there is a better way, then I would like to hear of it.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-25 07:55:57)


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#802 2023-01-25 12:13:58

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,380

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I may or may not delete this post.  I need some information.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbit_of_Mars
Mars =

687 days

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbit_of_Venus
Venus =

225 days

OK, 3 * 225 = 675.

So, does Venus orbit the sun 3 times for every orbit of Mars?  It looks almost true

Mars/Phobos/Deimos, appears to me to be a place where a Semi-Cycler can be supplied.

It appears to me that the orbits of Venus could use some of those supplies.

Although I have mostly avoided aerobraking for the Semi-Cycler, it is not forbidden.  Some of the other members have contemplated a Big Ship, which may have some thinking to borrow from.

However, for now I am going to imagine discrete units to travel along with the Semi-Cycler, which can individually aerobrake into the atmosphere of Venus, not to land but to achieve orbits.  Such might have a onetime ablative heat shield.

Venus could also be a place to pick people up from while doing a gravity assist Oberth maneuver.

I believe that it would be easier to travel to Venus with a more traditional spacecraft, than to go to Mars.

Both Mars and Venus not having an appreciable global magnetic field, I anticipate that. magnetic bubble propulsions can be used to move objects Low Orbit <> High Orbit.  Just with the Solar Wind Push.

I might hope that a Semi-Cycler might use the Solar Wind in part for navigation Venus <> Mars.

Query: "Magnet propulsion in the solar wind"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Magnet+pr … 167c3cbd27

Query: "Magnet propulsion against the solar wind"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Magnet%20 … cc=0&ghpl=

I think I recall that Dr. Robert Zubrin has invented one that can travel into the wind, and perhaps in the Earth's magnetic field as well.
Yes, here is something.  I have my own weird notions with magnetic wheels, but Dr. Zubrin is the real thing.  Lets have a look at his stuff.
https://www.centauri-dreams.org/2018/06 … ropulsion/

I will come back and chase this around again.  I am interested in stimulating activity on Mars and in Mars orbit, and in Venus Orbits, Clouds, and Surface.

Who, knows?  Someday could a shell with a dry ice filler, protect another shell with liquid Nitrogen in it and could these be conveyed from Venus to Mars, while solid materials and water might be sent from Mars to Venus?

A long way off but closer, if you start something up anyway.  And yes, Solar Wind might assist in moving the Masses.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-25 12:41:44)


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#803 2023-01-25 19:56:52

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,380

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

That last post was just a bit of fun.

I have thought that the Orbit of Venus could be a place to build orbital structures.  Using the atmosphere of Venus to "Catch" these loads from Mars/Phobos/Deimos is an interesting notion.

In some ways the location of Venus would be good, provided you could shelter from radiation and have synthetic gravity.  It might not be that hard to extract materials from the atmosphere of Venus as well.

But another reality is that if you have mirrors in orbit of Mars, you can get solar concentrations that will do very well in the orbits of Mars.

But using the solar wind may work well in the orbits of Mars to move stuff about.

Probably focusing on Mar is a good idea for now, if we could.  But I still am a supporter of both surface and orbital development of Mars.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-25 20:00:07)


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#804 2023-01-26 08:48:48

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,380

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Just working into something about sailing.  Storing materials for it.

Query: "rotating wind sails for ships"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=rotating+ … ab38904114

Rotor Ship:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotor_ship

Magnus Effect:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_effect

Something from Isaac Arthur: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grfLUOOARBw

The materials in this post, are scattered and sort of a beginning to investigate possible propulsion methods.

I think I will set it aside until later for now.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-27 08:38:06)


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#805 2023-01-26 10:41:08

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,380

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Anyone reading this just remember I am not that good at walking and chewing bubble gum at the same time, sometimes.  It's not that hard to find flaws.

But here I am going to try to work with the subpart of a Semi-Cycler where it might fly by a planet such as Earth, and exchange people and perhaps some materials as well.

I am going to attempt fancy so that might end in a joke.

The concern is what happens to the people if the transport "Taxi" misses the Semi-Cycler?  Well, in the first place if you send a Starship to Mars and it goofs up the injection burn to Mars, then you may be in even more trouble.  So, we might work on the comparative risks.

In the case of the Starship as a Taxi, you know very soon that you have a problem, and are closer to the Earth/Moon which might be more recoverable.  The Taxi should have had a proper inspection for fault discovery prior to the attempt.  In the case of injection to Mars orbit from Hohmann method, your ship has been in deep space for months.  Some additional deterioration is possible.  Also, an impactor might be more possible.  You are after all closer to the Asteroid Belt.

For the Taxi to Semi-cycler, I am thinking of multiplexing sub-units into a temporary transfer assembly.

For this I am imagining two Starships (Minimum) tied together where they can at short notice swap propellants between each other.
Cargo will preferentially be in a bundle outside the ships but tied to the ships.  It is debatable if the passengers will be in one or both ships, or in another parcel outside of the ships.

I kind of think nose to nose might be a good configuration with Cargo strapped on outside the ships.  It would not be forbidden to have drop tanks as well if you needed them, but you might not drop them unless you needed to.

The preferred action is that the assembly launches from the Earth/Moon orbits, and fires one ship and then does a tumble and fires the other.  By doing this then to make it to the Semi-Cycler.

In a mishap you have two ships.  In some cases, if needed you eject the cargo.  If one Starship is not able to fire engines, then you move the propellants to the other.  There is more than one possible script for that.

In an ideal reality the Ship pair would function well and do their job to deliver cargo and passengers to the Semi-Cycler.  Then somehow abort back to Earth, or (Not Likely) the Moon.  The Semi-Cycler would be able to receive the cargo and passengers.  In an even more ideal situation if needed more propellants would be taken from the Semi-Cycler and delivered to the ships if needed, and people from Mars, might travel back to Earth in those same ships.

But I do not know at all how possible that is.  Keep in mind that I intend that at Mars/Phobos/Deimos orbits, the Semi-Cycler would have taken on quite a bit of materials for propellants. 

So, in a problem in the Earth end of the flyby, the idea would be to somehow either recover the people back to Earth, or with two ships and Cargo make it to Mars, somehow.  But the chances are simply iffy.  Having the ability to quickly react to a fault, would be important, and perhaps having the ability to get all the people to Mars in one ship might be an option but not fun at all.

So, that is my partial solution for the Earth end of the process.  It is a partial solution because it does not completely eliminate the possible of suffering and death for people, in some cases.

But any spaceflight is like that.  So, is flying on a plane.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-01-26 11:02:23)


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#806 2023-01-26 11:05:52

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 12,757

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

For Void re concept of a "semi-Cycler"

Void, this is a figment of your imagination.

There will NEVER be a "cycler" that stops mid-way, unless the laws of physics are repealed.

Please stop using the term "semi-cycler"... it will be confusing to young folks who might otherwise be inspired by the creativity of your posts.

To give ** any ** child the impression that a bowling ball hurtling down the lane toward the pins can be magically stopped mid-way, and then magically restarted at the full  velocity it had before the stop is not commendable activity.

Please just use the normal terms that are in service on Earth for shipping.

There are ferry craft that meet your criteria.  They stop. They travel They stop.

The are NOT called "cyclers"  They are called "ferries"

Please try to keep your posts labeled properly ...; you are either doing "magic" or you are doing "physics"

You can't do both (at least in ** this ** Universe).

(th)

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#807 2023-01-26 11:09:24

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,380

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

You should inquire before being rude.

I do believe that the Aldrin Cycler was able to park at Mars at times if they wanted it to.

I do not have that text, but recall it.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_cycl … r%20storms.
Quote:

The Aldrin cycler is an example of a Mars cycler.

Cyclers are potentially useful for transporting people or materials between those bodies using minimal propellant (relying on gravity-assist flybys for most trajectory changes) and can carry heavy radiation shielding to protect people in transit from cosmic rays and solar storms.

So, now we do a flyby of Earth and if we do it right, we get into a ballistic trajectory to Mars and do a Ballistic Capture.  We might do the Ballistic Capture, or maybe choose to just do a flyby of Mars.  I prefer the Ballistic Capture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_capture

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti … e%20planet.
Quote:

A New Way to Reach Mars Safely, Anytime and on the Cheap
Ballistic capture, a low-energy method that has coasted spacecraft into lunar orbit, could help humanity visit the Red Planet much more often

Quote:

The premise of a ballistic capture: Instead of shooting for the location Mars will be in its orbit where the spacecraft will meet it, as is conventionally done with Hohmann transfers, a spacecraft is casually lobbed into a Mars-like orbit so that it flies ahead of the planet. Although launch and cruise costs remain the same, the big burn to slow down and hit the Martian bull's-eye—as in the Hohmann scenario—is done away with. For ballistic capture, the spacecraft cruises a bit slower than Mars itself as the planet runs its orbital lap around the sun. Mars eventually creeps up on the spacecraft, gravitationally snagging it into a planetary orbit. "That's the magic of ballistic capture—it's like flying in formation," says Edward Belbruno, a visiting associated researcher at Princeton University and co-author, with Francesco Topputo of the Polytechnic University of Milan, of a paper detailing the new path to Mars and the physics behind it. The paper, posted on arXiv, has been submitted to the journal Celestial Mechanics and Dynamical Astronomy.

I have posted about ballistic capture again and again, and somehow it just doesn't get through.

I said Semi-Cycler, because it can stop at Mars if that is the choice.  It may refill supplies in orbit of Mars/Phobos/Deimos.

It does not need a heat shield to either Ballistic Capture to Mars or to flyby Earth or Mars.

It can wait in orbit of Mars until the proper time to depart and head for a flyby of Earth, or perhaps Venus.

It is quite a bit like the Aldrin Cycler, except in that time I don't think they had much of a notion of a Ballistic Capture to Mars.  I am sure they would have included it as an option if it had appeared on their radar screen.

I am ambiguous about the propellants to take on board at Mars.  I like Water and CO2, as ices or liquids if possible.  But you would also want some Methane and Oxygen, I am supposing.

The propellants on Board could be used to do an Oberth Gravitational Swing-by of Earth (Or Venus).  It might be possible that Starships that brought people to the device during the swing-by could just possibly fill up the Starships so that they could take a path back to Earth.  That is something I am very uncertain of at this time.  Better people than me might figure that out.

I also want an efficient propulsion method on board, something electric, I think.  It could be electric rocket propulsion with Argon from Mars, or I hope possibly the use of a method to sail on the solar wind.  So, it may be that this device would be a cross between a cycler and a really big spaceship, and would have latitude to do maneuvers that are not practical for a Cycling Spaceship normally.

Having coffee, will try a new post soon, maybe about solar wind propulsion.

You have an opportunity to insult me some more if you like.

Done.

Oberth Effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oberth_effect
Quote:

Oberth effect

Article
Talk
Read
Edit
View history
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Not to be confused with Gravity assist.

In astronautics, a powered flyby, or Oberth maneuver, is a maneuver in which a spacecraft falls into a gravitational well and then uses its engines to further accelerate as it is falling, thereby achieving additional speed.[1] The resulting maneuver is a more efficient way to gain kinetic energy than applying the same impulse outside of a gravitational well. The gain in efficiency is explained by the Oberth effect, wherein the use of a reaction engine at higher speeds generates a greater change in mechanical energy than its use at lower speeds. In practical terms, this means that the most energy-efficient method for a spacecraft to burn its fuel is at the lowest possible orbital periapsis, when its orbital velocity (and so, its kinetic energy) is greatest.[1] In some cases, it is even worth spending fuel on slowing the spacecraft into a gravity well to take advantage of the efficiencies of the Oberth effect.[1] The maneuver and effect are named after the person who first described them in 1927, Hermann Oberth, an Austro-Hungarian-born German physicist and a founder of modern rocketry.[2]

If you can load up on propellants at Mars, then you may do a Oberth propulsive action while also doing a Gravity Assist.  (I think).

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-26 11:37:25)


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#808 2023-01-26 11:38:34

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,380

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

A propulsive method for a Cycler may also provide some radiation shielding.

However, the cycler should have opportunity for lots of passive shielding.

There is this one which is only useful when heading away from the sun, (I think this is the one): https://thedebrief.org/this-new-deep-sp … .%E2%80%9D

This is definitely the one: https://www.centauri-dreams.org/2021/11 … e-magsail/
Quote:

The performance of the Wind Rider is very impressive. Calculations show that it will accelerate very rapidly and reach the velocity of the solar wind, about 400 km/s. This has implications for the flight trajectory of the vehicle and the mission time.

So, if this can be included to the "Cycler", then there is more latitude to modify the stored orbital energy on the way to Mars.

Although the above device will not accelerate towards the sun, it could be used to modify orbit as heading to Earth, I suspect.

In orbit of Mars, it could thrust in one half of its orbit and brake in the other half if that were useful.

I believe that Dr. Robert Zubrin has a sail that can navigate planetary magnetic fields, interplanetary magnetic fields, and interstellar magnetic fields.  And I believe that it can thrust into the solar wind, so then in the part of the path from Mars to Earth.

I have been working on what is likely a lesser concept, but I am not so much in the mood and have other things to do.

Now, if you can show me how I am wrong about each of the things I have been working with then tell me and explain it please.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-26 11:51:03)


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#809 2023-01-26 12:22:26

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,380

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I think I need to talk about robotic supply ships as well in this overall scheme.

In the event such a craft would do Ballistic Capture to Mars orbit, then robotic propulsive devices may have transported materials to Mars orbit from the Earth/Moon.  These could use electric rocket propulsion or magnetic propulsions just discussed.  They may be solar or nuclear powered.

If they are solar powered the solar panels might be used in orbit of Mars after that, or on the surface.  If they are nuclear, they may be used to provide power in Martian orbit or to help the "Device" to head out towards Earth.  I recall discussions of using Hydrogen as a propellant or water.  But of course a nuclear electric device may not be suitable for that.  Anyway possible methods.

In the event that the "Device" may decide to flyby Mars, robotic supply ships might bring materials to the Device from either Mars/Phobos/Deimos or from Earth/Moon sources.

So, it is not simply some thing that only orbits, it has methods to also alter orbits.

In the case where it did not stop to refill from Mars/Phobos/Deimos, then Ships traveling with it such as Starships could skim the Martian atmosphere to be captured to orbit or to land.  Not an easy thing from what a member here has indicated.


Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-26 12:29:57)


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#810 2023-01-26 13:15:38

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,380

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

So, then there can be other things.  Like one reason I would like to tank up on water and CO2 at Mars, is that you might shoot ice cubes out for propulsion.  You probably want to include some magnetic iron dust.  And you would use a mass driver system.

So, on the way out of parking orbit around Mars, you can use solar wind sailing to get your craft to a very high orbit, and then at the right point in the orbit leave Mars in a direction opposing the orbit of Mars around the sun.  This would drop your path towards the sun I believe.  After than you need some form of propulsion, which could be chemical burn, possibly a magnetic drive, or electric rocket, but you might shoot ice out which has magnetic dust in it.

The ice should evaporate, and the solar wind should push the dust outward out of the pathways, in a reasonable amount of time.

You need a special ice cube making machine, and a Mass Driver system.

This then allows Water or Dry Ice to be lifted from Mars, perhaps cooked from Phobos and Deimos.  This then reduces the burden for propellant production on the surface of Mars, where dust storms can very much get in the way.  And you may not even have to turn the water and CO2 into propellants if you can shoot them from a mass driver.

------

As for fuels and Oxygen, an alternate path to them could be photosynthesis.  Possibly to produce Oxygen and biomass, and maybe some process to release fuels from the biomass.  This could be in the orbits of Mars, or even on the "Semi-Cycler".

I will use the term "Semi-Cycler" as that distinguishes it from a regular Cycler.  Pardon me.  Or just stop being rude and not bothering to have civil discussions.

Lunch then the gym.  Maybe I should just buy a hammer and Wack myself instead of coming here.  Vote?  I am a dictatorship; your votes don't count against my life.


Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-26 13:22:05)


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#811 2023-01-26 19:36:34

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,380

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Well, might as well seek benefit from current dialog.  Once upon a time I wanted to shoot Oxygen ice out of a mass driver, as it is, I believe paramagnetic.

But now water ice, with very small magnetic grains in it.  That could be Iron or Nickle, but maybe an induced magnetism of Aluminum, with eddy currents.

So that may be fairly good out to the middle of the asteroid belt.  Mars, Ceres, and some asteroids might supply that water.  The bullets though might not disintegrate if you get outside the "Snow" line for water.  But then you might be able to go to Dry Ice.  After that, other ices.

So, it may be mass drivers could do some good that way.

The ices are to vaporize after being shot out, and the dust remnant should be kept fine grained enough that the Solar wind will push it outwards away from travel pathways.

So, I will settle for that gift as a useful one in some situations.

That's enough.

Done.


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#812 2023-01-27 06:15:34

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,380

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

So, I feel that the building of "Castles" in space is para terraforming just as a dome on a planet would be.  Isaac Arthur has a military background, and to some extent a Castle sort of is at least partly military.  It is sort of Human against Human in concept.  I suppose the phrase Human against Nature is more the direction I am interested in, but apparently some people own the word cycler.

Perhaps the word Nomad Community might work for Castles that visit multiple locations in the solar system.  So, maybe that can elude the nonsense of the word police.  Something to work on.

Now some discussion of Nomad Communities can include gravitational and other propulsions, without someone thinking they have some stupid schoolteacher powers over fully adult individuals.

I have been discussing dual relationships where a Nomad Community may pass by worlds like Mars, Earth, Venus, and may though Ballistic capture park in orbits of those planets temporarily like Nomads, and then depart.  The parking has its advantages, and its costs, to unpark later.

So, in the relationship of Earth<>Mars(C), an optional capture to Mars orbit can be considered, or a flyby of Mars.
For Venus<>Earth(C) similar method available, and for Venus<>Mars(C) again a capture to the outer world of the pair is a possible choice.

I don't know how well Ceres(C) might work.  I am interested in Jupiter(C), and Saturn(C) as capture or flyby partners.  Not sure how well they can work, but Jupiter of course has the most massive gravity well to ballistic capture to.

I wonder what the capture capabilities might be for the Trojan Asteroids of Jupiter.

The good thing is that Ceres, Jupiter, and Saturn, would allow the accumulation of useful materials, and an orbit which passes more toward the sun in part would make solar energy more useful that is would be at the capture world.

So, can the Trojans be visited by Nomad Communities? 
https://www.bing.com/search?q=Trojan+As … 247f84805e

For now I am thinking of the Jupiter Trojans: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter_trojan
Image Quote: 310px-InnerSolarSystem-en.png
Quote:

The total number of Jupiter trojans larger than 1 km in diameter is believed to be about 1 million, approximately equal to the number of asteroids larger than 1 km in the asteroid belt.[1] Like main-belt asteroids, Jupiter trojans form families.[4]

So, I am not sure how a Nomad Community might interact with the two trojan "Pockets".  I believe the trojans move about in those pockets.  Perhaps it would simply be sensible to have a partner that stays in the trojans and builds and sells objects to be added to a Nomad Community.  In that case, the Nomad Community might not have an inward planet it bothered to do a gravitational pass with.  Perhaps it would simply move inward to bask in the sunlight, and then outward again, to pass through one of the Trojan pockets.

I presume that the Trojans have the same average orbital period as Jupiter: 11.86 years.

Perhaps there may be some method to link some of the Hilda's: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilda_ast … 0%C2%B0%29.
Quote:

The asteroids of the Hilda group (Hildas) are in 3:2 mean-motion resonance with Jupiter.[4] That is, their orbital periods are 2/3 that of Jupiter. They move along the orbits with a semimajor axis near 4.0 AU and moderate values of eccentricity (up to 0.3) and inclination (up to 20°).

So, I don't know if it is possible to have a orbit of 1/3rd the time of Jupiter's orbit.  11.86 / 3 = 3.953 years.  That would be interesting as it is very close to 4 time the year of Earth.  Likely it would be rather easy to compensate for that with solar wind propulsion I speculate.

In that case a Nomad Community of the Trojans might be synchronized with a Nomad Community that passes by the Earth?  I can't puzzle that yet.

But for the Trojan part, the ability to pick up mass in the Trojans by whatever means, would perhaps allow an orbit that would be good enough to use solar, and have a pretty good solar power in the more inward parts of the orbit of the Nomad Community.

Interesting.  No proof of ice in the trojans, but it is highly suspected.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-27 07:05:58)


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#813 2023-01-27 08:07:43

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,380

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

So, Nomad Communities would always want a full set of possible propulsion methods.  I will work on that a bit if I can.

The use of dusty magnetic projectiles to thrust with a Mass Driver.  Basically the stuff of comets.

I think the use of water ice will be appropriate in association with Mars/Phobos/Deimos, and probably Ceres.  Probably the water is more precious in the Earth/Moon.  To use water ice beyond the snow line of the solar system for water ice, may create impactor problems.  I do think that dry ice might work further out.   And if it could be taken from Venus, it might be significant.

For the case of Mars, it may be that loss of mass can be reduced, if the items fired out of the mass driver, intercept the atmosphere.

The combination of magnetic dust and water ice, may in fact promote the development of high clouds which might help to warm the planet.

Water as mass lifted from Mars itself, is not explosive, and neither would iron dust be expected to be.

Water stored in orbit as liquid or ice, is a radiation shield, and would give little trouble as per boil off.

Iron should be obtainable from Mars/Phobos/Deimos, and water would be available from Mars, and just maybe the moons of it.  If mass driver propulsion can be implemented then there is less need to do all the work needed for combustion propulsion.  Although combustion does include stored energy, that stored energy has to be collected and many manipulations are needed before the stored chemical energy exists.  It may be easier to simply shoot ice projectiles.

The inclusion of magnetic dust into ice projectiles, may be relatively easy in Microgravity, and the cold needed would be available.  So, it might be that the projectiles would be handled like ammunition, or they might be created enroute.

A transfer between Ceres and Mars, might use this method, I would think.  Solar is relatively weak in those places, so I suppose nuclear fission might be the way for electrical power.

Nomad Communities might load up on water and iron in Mars orbits, and so would have that means of propulsion, and additional radiation shielding.  Either headed to an Earth, Venus, or Mercury flyby or moving outward into the asteroid belt.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-27 08:30:51)


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#814 2023-01-27 08:33:35

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,380

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

From post #806:

Quote:

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 12,630
Email
For Void re concept of a "semi-Cycler"

Void, this is a figment of your imagination.

There will NEVER be a "cycler" that stops mid-way, unless the laws of physics are repealed.

Please stop using the term "semi-cycler"... it will be confusing to young folks who might otherwise be inspired by the creativity of your posts.

To give ** any ** child the impression that a bowling ball hurtling down the lane toward the pins can be magically stopped mid-way, and then magically restarted at the full  velocity it had before the stop is not commendable activity.

Please just use the normal terms that are in service on Earth for shipping.

There are ferry craft that meet your criteria.  They stop. They travel They stop.

The are NOT called "cyclers"  They are called "ferries"

Please try to keep your posts labeled properly ...; you are either doing "magic" or you are doing "physics"

You can't do both (at least in ** this ** Universe).

(th)

(th), you owe me an apology, and I want it from you, in front of everyone.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-27 08:34:16)


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#815 2023-01-27 08:35:22

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,380

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I was working on yet another set of notions mostly to do with the solar wind: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 68#p205468

Quote:

Just working into something about sailing.  Storing materials for it.

Query: "rotating wind sails for ships"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=rotating+ … ab38904114

Rotor Ship:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotor_ship

Magnus Effect:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_effect

Something from Isaac Arthur: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grfLUOOARBw

The materials in this post, are scattered and sort of a beginning to investigate possible propulsion methods.

I think I will set it aside until later for now.

Done.

Of course, I am thinking of rotating something in the Solar Wind, supposing that it may be possible to modify what the solar wind may do to a magnetic bubble(s).

Where the objective could be to accelerate or decelerate a Nomad Community, for the moment I will just think about what might be done with a spinning object, with a spinning magnetic field.

The spinning object may develop induced currents within it if you spin a magnetic field inside or attached to it.  But for now, that can be set aside.  I have imagined the objects spin as oscillating between 1/3 to 1 g simulation.  At least the 1 g would improve people's health.  The 1/3 g might still help with things like sanitation and mobility.

So, the spin of the object could be considered to have a spin axis, and of course the spinning magnetic field will also, but its orientation does not have to be the same as the spin axis of the object.  The spin orientations may be the same or opposing.

The solar wind is an object with mass, just as the wind is an object with mass.  The plasma of the solar wind can be influenced by a magnetic field spun in this manner.

I am hoping to produce a Magnus effect, but for now I am just wondering if the spin of the spin object can be modified by acting the magnetic spin field with the solar wind.  I think it should be possible.

Here is an article about the solar wind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_wind

There is a schematic for the solar wind here: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Sch … _331978260
Image Quote: Schematic-picture-of-the-solar-wind-in-the-ecliptic-plane-Small-dyed-circle-in-the.png
Quote:

Schematic picture of the solar wind in the ecliptic plane. Small dyed circle in the center corresponds to the Sun. The arrow shows the direction of rotation of the Sun. The boundary of the middle circle defines the corona region, at the border of which magnetic field becomes completely radial. The shaded gray areas correspond to the zones of the heliospheric current sheet which is shown by dashed lines running from the corona to the periphery. It separates magnetic field of the solar wind with different directions of magnetic field lines (from the Sun or to the Sun). The orbit of the planet (shown by a dotted circle) is located in the heliospheric region. (A color version of the Figure is available in the electronic version of the journal.

I have a lot more to learn, but at least in shows how the solar wind spirals outwards from the sun.

As far as living on a variable g spin object, perhaps high g would be at noon when you might exercise, and low g at midnight, when you might sleep.  I don't know if you can alter a spin object that quickly against the solar wind.  It would require the correct field strength, and of course the velocity of spin would matter, and there would be torque.  Lots to learn.

So, then: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotor_ship
Image Quote: 220px-Sketch_of_Magnus_effect_with_streamlines_and_turbulent_wake.svg.png
Quote:

The Magnus effect, depicted with a backspinning cylinder in an airstream. The arrow represents the resulting sideways force that can be used to help propel a ship. The curly flow lines represent a turbulent wake. The airflow is deflected in the direction of spin.

The thing should allow spin modification of the object, and some modifications of thrust.

Elliptic Orbit:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliptic_orbit

In the case of orbiting Mars, Venus, and Mercury, Ceres, the spin object would be presented to the solar wind in different ways during orbit.
So, that is something to get a handle on.  How this might work in a planetary magnetic field, I do not know.

I have in previous posts discussed using a magnetic field like a wheel in orbit of the Moon.  It is desirable to get a grasp on that possibility as well.  Tethers have a tendency to orient up/down to the center of gravity, I believe.  So, if you had a spinning magnetic field, perhaps you could have a unicycle.  Acting against the magnetic structure of a world.

The high master is mentioned in this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_sail
Magnetic field sizes can be quite big, but of course it costs machines and energy.

Might you do the Unicycle thing on Mars?  I don't know, but it is an amusing thought.

Some or all of this may come to nothing, or maybe something useful can be found.  But I think I prefer to rest on it for a while and see what emerges for further understanding.

The thing I want most is for a Nomad Community to be able to thrust against the solar wind towards the sun when returning from Aphelion.
https://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/p … stice.html

But any possible thrust may be worth looking at.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-27 09:32:56)


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#816 2023-01-27 10:51:00

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,380

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

While the work with the solar wind will be important, water is really a big thing.

Obviously, I favor aquiculture as it can be seen that with a large store of water you can get organic mass and food, and Oxygen.

The water will shield you per radiation per passive method, and the magnetic fields may add to propulsion methods and also give active radiation protection.  And then if you see it as worthwhile you may use a mass driver to shoot ice out for propulsion, provided you have some sort of magnetic (Pixie) dust.

At some point does water become a currency in outer space?  Maybe, sort of.

So, using water itself and dust, and the solar wind, will it become profitable to bring water inward in the solar system for such uses?

I think that is really possible.  It would be slow boat methods though I think, and Nomadic Communities might be the ones to do it.



Done.

Of course, water can be split for combustion desires, or water can be used for steam thrust.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-01-27 11:01:23)


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#817 2023-01-27 19:37:53

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,380

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I went out for a late dinner and left my computer on.  I found this had popped up to the screen while I was away.  I have encountered things I do not care to speak of in my life, so I will take it as maybe somehow it might fit in somewhere.  I do believe in spooks!

https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/file … er%20orbit.

Maybe I will study it later.

Done.

OK, I will turn the other cheek.  No grudge held.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-27 19:41:06)


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#818 2023-01-28 11:36:10

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,380

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

The Article in this post, looks very good but of course the authors are practically of another species, as far as me having the ability to strongly comprehend their work.  I have had a shallow look.  http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 27#p205527

I think that the braking and aerocapture will be an important asset for planetary encounters by "Semi-Cyclers" or if you like, "Nomad Devices".  And I will use those phrases if I like (th).  The idea that there should be an Orthodoxy already established about the concept annoys me.  I first encountered the concept in a very old Sci-Fi book.  The inhabitants were monks, who enjoyed being in isolation, and I believe that they only aligned with one Planet, as they were not eager for contact, except to sell a few things they made from time to time.
I don't recall the name of the book.  The phrase "Semi-Cycler" to me indicates that you store energy as speed and orbital radius, from one encounter and use it in part to encounter yet again either the same world, or another world.  But of course I am very interested in methods to further modify orbits to make the process more useful.  But enough of that.

I want to make sure that it is understood that my notion of how to start with Mars is pretty much aligned with what SpaceX projects.  I am simply looking at what later moves might be like, and how they might expand capabilities for the human race.

I like the electrical, which I am rather trained in, and so then Magnetic Bubble propulsions, and I like the idea of pairing that with mass drivers.  Currently I would like to make "Comet Bullets" to fire out of them.  Those would be a main structure of ice, with a lacing of some kind of magnetic dust.  There has been a lot of binary conflict about solar vs. nuclear.  I value both.  It is true that the more remote you get from the sun, the more inertia you would have to overcome if you are trying to so some sort of start-stop rocket type propulsions.  But if you begin to use your propulsions in large cycling and semi-cycling structures, then mass can be energy storage.  It is not always against your needs.  So, with concentrating mirrors, solar could be used much further out than might seem sensible on the surface.

So, since I am very interested in electric based momentum change features, I am also interested in the magnetic shield that these very higher than me have contemplated.

Please forgive this appropriation from R.Z. : https://alchetron.com/Magnetic-sail#:~: … n%20radius.

I wanted a notion of size for the magnetic bubble.
Quote:

For a sail in the solar wind one AU away from the Sun, the field strength required to resist the dynamic pressure of the solar wind is 50 nT. Zubrin's proposed magnetic sail design would create a bubble of space of 100 km in diameter (62 mi) where solar-wind ions are substantially deflected using a hoop 50 km (31 mi) in radius.

So, then I think we should be allowed to have a bit of fun: gF8SHuG.png

So, then for the Moon or Ceres and such worlds, imagine a magnetic wheel.  As I understand it, the tether should tend to stratify with an up and down orientation.

There might be ways to steer left and right, I can speculate on several.  One just relies on momentum of the mass of the structure and then simply turning the coils from which, the magnetic field emanates.

And it may be that for Mars the upper atmosphere being rather plasma in nature, could you ride a magnetic wheel on top of that?  In that case can you collect some atmosphere into your Unicycle?

Don't forget to have a bit of fun now and then if you continually resort to your reptilian mind with low emotions, you will have trouble accessing your higher mind, which we hope is various better parts of what a human can be.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-28 12:17:43)


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#819 2023-01-28 15:18:20

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,380

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Well, as I often do in this topic I can switch about.
From: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 62#p205562
Quote:

I think your efforts are worth continuation.  You are seeming to seek to find a very local way to enhance energy manipulations.

This, article I found is gratifying as it is something I have been hoping for:

https://techxplore.com/news/2023-01-geo … d-oil.html
Quote:

JANUARY 26, 2023

Geothermal 'battery' repurposes abandoned oil and gas well in Illinois, researchers report
by Lois Yoksoulian, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign

Image Quote: geothermal-battery-rep.jpg

Apparently, some pre-existing wells can be put to good use.

The frack wells out in the Dakotas and Texas?  Maybe, I don't know.

One thing about places with less water is that if you have energy, then water recycling, and extraction from the atmosphere become more practical, maybe economical.

It is my suspicion that for places like the Dakota's that may get snow, vertical east/west solar panels might do very nicely and shade the ground so that desirable vegetation might be assisted.  If you have repurposed wells that you can store excess solar energy, or wind energy, then you might be arriving at some method to have reliable power.

And of course with Eavor or other such companies, you might even tap into geothermal energy.

https://www.eavor.com/

Done.

So, it is not unreasonable to think of Geo storage for Mars, and perhaps even some geothermal.

That of course requires drilling.

Let's consider lava tubes for thermal storage.

A lava tube(s) could have several sections.  You could analyze what each section is best for.  Obviously, some might be heated very hot, with radiant heaters.  Other than the heat and some efforts to keep it in an envelope, you would not so much modify that section of lava tube.  Methods to produce that heat back to a process, could follow various paths.

If you had water resources and could seal the bottom of a section of tube, perhaps with permafrost, then you might have a water filled lava tube section.  Water might come from a well, if there is an aquifer.

Lave Tubes on Mars: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martian_lava_tube

If it were possible to fill a section of Lava Tube with water, which might not be easy, then you may use the same salt gradients method to store heat in a stratified liquid.

Should you do that, then you may have a para terraformed section that only needs something to breath to have a basic life support.

And if you wanted to put diving bells in the structure, perhaps even abutting the Ceiling you might.  The pressure in the diving bell, should it not have a leak, will be the that at the bottom lip of the diving bell.  Then of course to make it better, you might put floors and walls in it.

Also, if you drilled boring company tunnels from this "Water Lock", you could make them habitable.

You could use a barometric airlock from this situation to access the surface of Mars.

It would make sense to put artificial underwater lights in to heat the water and to allow extreme microbes to grow.  You could of course use capsule agriculture for more complex plants.

Some really good sections of the Lava tube could be made habitable.

In some sections you might store cold.  I guess there may be various ways to try to do that.

You would not be prohibited from having surface structures as well, including greenhouses.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-01-28 15:39:05)


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#820 2023-01-28 17:10:52

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,380

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

In view of emerging technologies, the appearance of the solar system shifts.  Where we have had the attitude that Mars is a failed Earth, I have more come to think that Mars is not flooded like Earth, and has the resources that might be suitable for the expansion of human technological society.

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sci … %C2%B1%203.

So, by being "leaky" a concentrate of Deuterium exists.  There is enough water to base a large scale human activity on as well.

Robert Dyck did a post mentioning Helion: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 46#p205546

I feel that it may be that SpaceX and others may initiate missions to Mars, but then afterward, I would think that would turn around, as Mars could be where missions to Earth might be initiated.  It is just another way to look at it.

If reactors on Mars could cook up Helium3 from Deuterium on Mars, then "Large scale colonization ship" activity might happen.  But it may be in the form of Mars recruiting immigrants.  I have made a point of not interfering with the Large Ship concept until now, and will try not to disturb its evolution.

Ships and Stations might use Fusion technology, but also may use solar and Fission.

Stations in orbit of Saturn could use concentrating mirrors even that far away from the sun.  So, according to this reference, you would need a mirror of 100 to 200 times the size of what you would want to shine light on.  That is just me adjusting for slop.  Mirrors will not be perfectly efficient at reflecting light.  https://astronomy.stackexchange.com/que … 2F%20m%202
Quote:

AU    Sun brightness    no. panels
Mercury perihelion    0.307    10.61    0.094
Mercury aphelion    0.466    4.6    0.22
Venus    0.723    1.91    0.52
Earth    1    1    1
Mars perihelion    1.382    0.523    1.9
Mars aphelion    1.666    0.36    2.78
Vesta    2.36    0.18    5.57
Ceres    2.76    0.131    7.62
Jupiter perihelion    4.95    0.041    24.5
Jupiter aphelion    5.25    0.036    27.6
Saturn perihelion    9.04    0.012    81.7
Saturn aphelion    11.1    0.0098    102
Uranus    19.2    0.0027    368
Neptune    30.1    0.0011    906
Pluto perihelion    29.65    0.0011    879
Pluto aphelion    49.3    0.00041    2430
Eris perihelion    38    0.00069    1440
Eris aphelion    97.4    0.0001    9490
Sedna perihelion    76    0.00017    5780
Sedna aphelion    936    0.000001100    876000

I won't fuss with that table; it is in the link in more readable format.

With that sort of thinking, then Neptune would require 1000 to 2000 times the area for a mirror.  That does get rather out there.

As I have said before, I like the idea that a ship or assembly of ships could initiate a mission from Mars to Earth.  If we presumed only thrust from chemical rockets, then we would have to keep a tight alignment for the cycles of Earth and Mars for the launch date.

My hope is that modifications are possible by use of other propulsion methods as well.  Solar Wind, Ice Pellets per Mass Driver, other.

Rather than to stop at Earth, it would do a flyby, and like a Cycler, an opportunity to exchange populations would exist.  It could be dangerous, but then if you completed your exchange successfully you would likely be in relatively comfortable surroundings.

So, you would preserve much of your momentum in the swing-by of Earth.  You also might have the option of a gravity assist to change your orbital characteristics, and if you had the resources, you might do an Oberth method as well to change course.  I believe that is true, at least I think that for now.  Probably that would need to be a chemical burn with big engines, as it has a limited time in the gravity well of Earth to be implemented.

This sort of thing might also be done for Venus, or who knows, as Calliban seems to have suggested, Mercury.  In the case of Venus, you have an atmosphere to brake objects into either to capture or actually break sad

So, then your efforts might be to get a Ballistic Capture to Mars, Ceres, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, Pluto?  I don't know if Ceres and Pluto are big enough to have a suitable gravity well.

Maybe we could call Mars/Phobos/Deimos>Earth/Moon>Mars/Phobos/Deimos a boomerang method.  That perhaps could distinguish it from other concepts of cycling.

But to look at the solar system now, presuming Fusion becomes real, where the ice is to some degree is where "it" is at.

We could always export Heavy Elements to those icy objects, probably using the solar wind, and a Lithobraking Method, (Maybe).

And it may well be true that ices will be exportable to the inner solar system, in large bulk.

And as per the ideas of Isaac Arthur and others, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune will be possible to mine, and eventually maybe Jupiter, and eventually even the sun.

With Fusion, the Oort Cloud may even be inhabitable, and then even to other star systems perhaps.

Not a bad emergence, from where we were.  Fusion though will likely be the key piece.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-28 17:43:47)


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#821 2023-01-28 17:54:06

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,380

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Quote of me from the previous post:

Maybe we could call Mars/Phobos/Deimos>Earth/Moon>Mars/Phobos/Deimos a boomerang method.  That perhaps could distinguish it from other concepts of cycling.

The scary part of it is the swing-by of Earth with the exchange of people.  We will want to avoid and reduce the potential of people being cast off into space with no long-term survival likely.

I have already tried to address this with a Dual Starship method.  We receive an inherited treasure from Apollo 13.  They had 2 ships, or if you like 1 1/2 ships.  The managed to survive.

The saying is that "There is safety in numbers".  Well, ganging ships together could be overdone.  One explodes and destroys the others for instance.  That is much less likely in the vacuum of space than on the ground.  So, two or more together, up to the danger of a cascading event of damage.

Ideally the Starships would be able to catch up with the ship from Mars, before it did its slingshot.   That is a desire, not a necessity.  The collection would have to be in an Earth orbit, perhaps protected by a radiation shield, and be able to fire rockets to intercept the Mars Boomerang vehicle.

We might hope for days or at least hours where the people and cargo might be transferred, and the Starships be refilled.  Then, ideally, the ships would take the return people and intercept the atmosphere of Earth while the Mars ship passed by Earth.

Maybe it could be done.

The ships would be fresh, not having traveled through space for some months.  So, maintenance on them should have been done with great results, we would hope.  They would be in service for days at the most, unless a mishap happened.

I feel that the bulk of cargo should be outside the ships to be carried by the ships in that manner, so that upon intercept the cargo could be swiftly transferred to the Mars ship.

In the event that an intercept of the Mars ship has a problem prior to intercept the cargo can be cast off and also any dead ship even perhaps.

In the event of a mishap after intercept, if access to the Earth is not promptly possible, then we would hope that some of the collection of Ships would be able to scratch a method of survival back to Earth or maybe Venus or something like that.  The Earth being the most developed planet in the system, assistance from Earth might be realistic for them, provided that there was an agency on standby like the coast guard for such emergencies.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-28 18:12:30)


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#822 2023-01-29 04:45:00

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,380

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

If the Martian Hill Sphere would be the place to launch missions to places like Earth, it seems likely that we might enjoy it if the moons of Mars were including water ice. 

This would be very valuable, but is not at all verified as true: https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/moons/mars … 0asteroids.  Quote:

Like Earth's Moon, Phobos and Deimos always present the same face to their planet. Both are lumpy, heavily-cratered and covered in dust and loose rocks. They are among the darker objects in the solar system. The moons appear to be made of carbon-rich rock mixed with ice and may be captured asteroids.

So, an alternative would be to process water on Mars.  The extraction of the Deuterium and Hydrogen would be important the Oxygen might be consumed.  The Deuterium might be processed to make Helium3 per Helion technology.  Nuclear fusion "Fuels" might then be used in orbit, possibly with Helion reactors having aneutronic process. 

The Hydrogen also lifted to orbit could be reacted with the rocks of the two moons to produce various products.  In orbit it would be sensible to use concentrated solar heat from concentrator mirrors to heat reaction chambers to a hot temperature and to introduce regolith and Hydrogen.  Part of the result would be water, which would have very little Deuterium.  Also, magnetic materials may be produced by the reduction process.  Some of that magnetic material may be modified to be a very fine dust, and so then from that and the water you could make magnetic projectiles to shoot out of Mass Drivers.

There are various ways that the Mass Drivers could be powered.

Obviously, the materials processed from the moons could be used also to build local structures in orbit.

For a Boomerang Cycler as it moved from Mars>Earth, solar energy would be enhanced.  Electrical power would be for propulsive methods in some cases, for life support, and to cook up something like Hydro Lox, or Metha Lox.  So, if you started from Mars with tanks full of water and CO2, as you moved closer and closer to the sun more of the energy could be devoted to making those propellants.  They would likely be wanted for a Oberth Maneuver in a fly-by of Earth.

Time will tell.  Fusion power might be used instead of Solar, but Solar might be a good fit, for Boomerang Cyclers that start from a place rich in Ice but poor in energy.  Then to fly in a single cycle inward to greater sunlight abundance.

I am not 100% sure that I have this right, but if Saturn were the Ice Source world, then an enormous number of orbital worlds, (Artificial), might follow that pattern, all linked to Saturn.  In these cases, they might very well not have a planet that they did gravitational passes on.

In that notion Titan might be a receiver for heavy elemental materials in structures.  If these were sent by the solar wind or by photon sail, from more inward planets, then they could be crashed into the atmosphere of Titan.  Of course, they would be burned up, but the resulting dust and debris, could then be recovered.  The atmosphere of Titan is deeper and thicker than that of Earth, so this might work well.

While I have said that the artificial worlds tied to Saturn, might not do orbital passes of planets, they might although send ices to do lithobraking.  Mercury, Venus, Luna, and Mars might be places to receive this.  In the case of the Moon, these would be crashed into the shadowed craters.  If it were desired, it might prove useful to create a magnetic field for the Moon, not so much to create and allow an atmosphere, but to make more efficient the collection of water and other substances to the shadowed crater floors.

The size of the icy impactors would need to be small so that if a mistake is made the damage would not be of a large scale.

So, then receiving such water, if it then also had deuterium in it of course then you have an ability to do many good things.

If Saturn itself were mined for Deuterium, then perhaps water could be loaded with it for crashing or lithobraking onto the Moon or other worlds.

Just for the sake of exciting imagination, it seems to me that Lasers from Mercury could send energy to Saturn, Saturn also receiving Lithobraked heavy elements from Titan, may then build more worlds that dive towards the sun.  These might be loaded with ices, and then from a more sunward part of the orbits, to send guided mini-Comets to impact on worlds, such might be for Mercury.  The Polar Craters of Mercury already thought to have much ice, could be converted to covered seas.

So, the relationship between Saturn and its moons with the inner planets looks very interesting to me.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-29 05:22:00)


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#823 2023-01-29 11:20:23

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,380

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I found this article on a Martian moon.  It does not settle uncertainty, but attempts to improve definition of what might be true.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 3521003699
Quote:

Icarus
Volume 372, 15 January 2022, 114714
Icarus
Research Paper
Constraints on the interior structure of Phobos from tidal deformation modeling
Author links open overlay panelAndrei A.DmitrovskiiaAmirKhanabChristianBoehmaAmirhosseinBagheriaMartinvan Driela

Quote:

Highlights

We apply a novel method to study the tidal deformation of Phobos.


Observations of the tidal deformation is a potential means for studying its interior.


Certain classes of model families are distinguishable based on tidal deformation.


A rigid central part causes the largest deformation relative to a homogeneous Phobos.

Quote:

Currently available information on the interior include satellite mass (Pätzold et al., 2014a) and shape model (Willner et al., 2014), which constrains the mean density of Phobos to 1.845 g/cm
. This relatively low value suggests a fractured and porous moon filled with either water-ice or voids or a combination thereof.

I like the article, but really can only understand it in vague fashion.  I will attempt to say a bit, but retain humility as I don't think I have definite answers.  I liked this Image: 1-s2.0-S0019103521003699-gr1.jpg

The image suggests to me that the world not being a sphere, shows more surface to the polar directions than towards the sun.  And of course, just as much surface faces the outer solar system as faces the sun.  So, to me this suggests an object that would be cooler on the interior than a sphere would be.

I am thinking that the dust layer is likely fluffy, and the voids between the dust grains are filled with vacuum, except if the solar wind passes into the grains.  So, it should be like thermos bottle.  So, the interior should have steady temperatures.

If there is ice in the interior, it should be more present under the North and South surfaces and less so under the equatorial surfaces.
So, I speculate that that icy material will conduct heat towards the North and South surfaces at a higher rate than the presumed ice free regolith of the subsurface of the equator.  So, I speculate that the interior is colder than a solid sphere would be because of shape, and because ice may transfer heat to radiate off better than would regolith void of ice, but filled with vacuum.

I suggest also that if indeed water has been shed from Mars, if Phobos was cold enough then it might have absorbed some of it even if it originated as dry rock.

The sun was about 70% as bright in the beginning as it is now, I seem to believe.  So, at the time that Mars was shedding water from presumed oceans, Phobos would have been colder than it is now.

Could such water ice be retained into this era?  I don't know, of course.

In any case my position is that the moon containing heavy elements, and Oxygen, and likely some Carbon, Mars could provide the Hydrogen to make icy pellets laced with magnetic materials.  And it may be possible to use those as mass driver propellants.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-29 11:57:08)


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#824 2023-01-31 21:20:20

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,380

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

This comes from "The Angry Astronaut" about Phobos.  My last post was of that topic, so I thought I would put the link here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiRuDpqVrkE

There is some useful information for anyone regardless of what plan you may prefer for initiating activity for Mars.

Noted things are that if your base sits in Stickney Crater, then 90% of radiation both solar and GCR is blocked.

Robotic probes are needed to confirm Carbon and Hydrogen Resources.  We know that there will be Oxygen and metals and silicates.  Also needed to be found is a large chunk of rock that can be accessed to lock onto.

The velocity of Phobos goes a long way towards escape velocity for Mars.

A skyhook may be an option down the line.  Keep in mind that even Dr. Zubrin has pondered such.

As you might know, I have been arriving at a notion that we should set up so that missions will launch from Mars orbit to pass by Earth, and then to return to Mars.  That does not forbid a Hohmann transfer method, but of course I am very interested in Ballistic Capture as a preferred method.  The possible longer time of transfer from Earth pass to ballistic capture, can be justified if you have sufficient life protection on the ship.

How this works, is several entities including individuals have their own notions.  If we are fortunate we will invent and find a best way, or at least one that can be tolerated.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-31 21:47:55)


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#825 2023-01-31 22:04:19

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,380

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I am unable to give a drawing at this time on this computer, but what I am interested in at this point is balloons Enclosing canals.

In the Canals will be diving bells that may be of various form and will be mobile.

The canals themselves will be trough solar concentrating mirrors, so the diving bells will endeavor to keep in the focus as the sun moves through the sky.

An interesting, fun concept.

I even think in terms of perhaps north/south canals.  And others of course, why be limited?

And yes, I am beginning to think that there might be a way to have shipping though such canals.

It' practically magic smile

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