Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Void · 2023-01-04 20:48:46

Building on the two prior posts, I do wish to consider the idea of assisted Artesian wells for Mars.
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 47#p204747 (Post #749)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 50#p204750 (Post #750)

In my opinion if there are aquifers for Mars, they may well be very deep.

Does Mars have aquifers?
https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/25/1760 … life-radar
Radar information supported the above, and then it was disputed, and then laser measurements currently now also support it.

This article may support it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groundwater_on_Mars
Quote:

Groundwater on Mars

Quote:

Deep aquifers may still exist.

Quote:

Evidence for groundwater upwelling

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groundwat … _upwelling

How Deep is the permafrost on Mars?
General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=How%20Dee … cc=0&ghpl=

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.10 … -5418-2_38
Quote:

Calculations based on the Viking Mission Data indicate that permafrost thicknesses range from about 3.5 km at the equator to approximately 8 km in the polar regions. The depths to the bottom of Martian permafrost are more than three times the depth characteristic of permafrost in terrestrial polar locations.

SO, WHAT ABOUT ARTEASIAN WELLS IN PERMAFROST?
Query: "Artesian wells in Permafrost"
General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Artesian+ … 779d17a631

https://ascelibrary.org/doi/abs/10.1061 … n%20winter.
Quote:

In permafrost valleys, artesian wells often penetrate highly pressurized aquifers beneath confining subpermafrost. These wells must be quickly brought under control at installation, and heated through their operational life to prevent them from freezing in winter.

Author: Dennis M. Filler, Rorik Peterson
Publish Year: 2013

Query: "How deep is the Valles Marineras?"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valles_Ma … of%20Earth.
Quote:

7 km (23,000 ft)

So, the Equatorial Permafrost might be 3.5 km at the equator, but the rift valley is 7 km deep. Granted the walls and the rift valley floor will also build permafrost, but I anticipate that if the rift valley shifts, a rupture in the ice seal may occur and an eruption of water may be possible.

How old is the Valles Marinaris?
THE MATERIALS IN THIS ARTICLE ARE EXTREMELY IMPORTANT, IN MY OPINION.
https://dessonxa227.amebaownd.com/posts/29753952
Quote:

Weakening Resistance. Not all the erosion within the valley produced catastrophic floods. In places such as Louros Valles, where numerous tributary canyons cut into the valley's southern rim, canyon widening and erosion occurred on smaller scales. These canyons likely formed by the same method as the main valley segments - release of groundwater - but the quantity of water was less, the scale was smaller, and the results more localized. As geologists reconstruct it, water emerged from the canyon walls as springs and seeps and carried away sediment.
In its wake, this sapping process left round-headed valleys that slowly retreated from the rim of the canyon. As faults and cracks in the rock guided the sapping, the growing valleys developed a characteristic tree-branch shape. It's worth comparing the tributary canyon seen here to the Grand Canyon in northern Arizona. The Grand Canyon is about kilometers miles long, while this tributary is only kilometers 72 miles long. But where this valley empties into Valles Marineris, it is more than 3, meters 12, feet deep - over twice the depth of Earth's Grand Canyon.

So, if we imagine that the faults in the rift valley are filled with salts, then it might be that they can be assistive to allowing moisture to percolate upwards in the valley floor. The canyon walls are almost certainly too cold to allow springs and seeps anymore, in my opinion.

How deep is Candor Chasma?
https://www.bing.com/search?q=How%20dee … cc=0&ghpl=
Quote:

6.5 km deep

Water detected in Candor Chasma?
https://www.livescience.com/water-found … 0Marineris.
Quote:

Data beamed back from the Trace Gas Orbiter's (TGO) Fine-Resolution Epithermal Neutron Detector (FREND) instrument found unusually high levels of hydrogen, which alongside oxygen makes up water, at a site called Candor Chaos — a Netherlands-size region located at the heart of Valles Marineris.

Well, that looks OK, but I guess I am confused. I should check out Candor Chaos

How Deep is Candor Chaos? Water in Candor Chaos?
General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=How%20Dee … cc=0&ghpl=

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne … 180979267/
Quote:

Beneath Canyons on Mars, Astronomers Find Potentially ‘Water-Rich Area the Size of the Netherlands’
A Martian orbiter located a large reserve of hydrogen in a mountainous area of the Red Planet
Elizabeth Gamillo
Elizabeth Gamillo
Daily Correspondent
December 20, 2021

OK, the depth is perhaps 6.5 km, the depth of permafrost could be 3.5 km below that but is probably less, as the rift valley is deep. If the fractures are filled with salt brine, what temperature would they freeze at?

What is the average temperature at the equator of Mars?
https://www.allthescience.org/what-is-t … C2%B0C.%29
Quote:

-80°F
Another reason for the difference in climate is that Mars is much smaller than the Earth, and the diameter at the equator of Mars is around half the size of that of the Earth. As a result of these factors, the temperature of the Mars climate is relatively cold, and the average temperature is -80°F (about -60°C.)

But I believe that the equator is warmer than the poles so it may be warmer at the equator than the average given above.

What temperatures do Martian Brines freeze at?

https://www.nasa.gov/jpl/msl/nasa-mars- … -for-brine

https://cosmosmagazine.com/space/martia … udy-finds/

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 3717303617

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 3580902377 210 k ?

This one might do it:
https://www.dailyuw.com/news/discoverie … 33569.html
Quote:

According to Shumway, perchlorates can keep briny water liquid at temperatures as low as -64 degrees Celsius, or -83 degrees Fahrenheit, and they are especially effective at pulling water vapor from the thin Martian atmosphere.

So, if moisture could flow up cracks in the rock though salt deposits, perhaps what has been observed in Candor Chasma/Candor Chaos might, maybe be explained. Of course, dirt would cover the salt deposits.

Brine flowing upwards might also bring some heat with it.

I am not saying that this is why Hydrogen is detected, but it is in the list of possibilities at this point in my opinion.

Done (I will suggest what to do with it in the next post, presuming it does exist as I have given suggestions for).

Last edited by Void (2023-01-04 22:04:37)

Void · 2023-01-04 22:09:57

This lengthy post can be summarized as "I think there could be artesian water in the Candor Chasma/Candor Chaos region of the Mariner Rift Valley. Vallis Marineras. http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 70#p204770

Saying that it could be is not me saying that it is. It is one of several possibilities, and I don't want the usual punishments normally mandated if the notion does not prove out.

I would like to know the association if any of the fogs that occur in the valley to this Hydrogen detected in Candor Chasma.

Here are images of the fogs: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Fo … HoverTitle

https://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/imagega … re_83.html Quote an image quote:

https://www.space.com/mars-grand-canyon … 0Marineris.
Quote:

How can astronauts explore Mars' Grand Canyon, Valles Marineris
By Leonard David last updated July 22, 2022
Can future crews on the Red Planet dive safely into this huge canyon system?

Image Quote:

OK, this could be just one moment in a weather pattern, but this one makes me wonder why the adjacent canyons have much less fog than the main canyon and its tributary canyons.

So, then could we put tents over the area where the Hydrogen detection was, and have a collection of elevated humidity? Then with a compressor can we get water?

Can there be water in the Valles Marineras?

Of course, the answer is yes, even for fresh water at 0 degrees C. But cold brines should be very possible. Damp salty ground under dry dirt? I think it is possible.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-01-04 22:31:00)

Calliban · 2023-01-05 05:25:23

Liquid brines could be stable in Valles Marineras from a boiling perspective. But any that spills out onto the surface will evaporate quickly. Given that evaporation causes cooling, it will tend to freeze. So brine is only stable as ground water, rather than surface water.

Another factor to take into account when considering the behaviour of any Mars water is viscosity. By adding salt, freezing point is depressed. But the further beneath zero you go, the more viscous the water becomes. At -50°C, a perchlorate saturated brine could technically still be liquid. But its viscosity would be comparable to treacle. This will undoubtably have an impact onmits ability to produce flood patterns where it does exist.

Void · 2023-01-05 08:43:53

I am going to put you into my water library for that Calliban! A new word also. "treacle". You learned me good!

The water library: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 15#p204715

treacle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treacle

OK, so there is a Hydrogen signal, and it is not known why. There could be several reasons, one of them could be water eruptions, maybe.

Thanks Calliban.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-05 09:02:42)

Void · 2023-01-05 11:22:16

I intend to borrow from (th)'s topic: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 88#p204788

Quote:

If you did a double dome, then it would work, as the submerged and water filled dome would be able to keep gasses better dissolved into the water within it.
You may also have to produce a method to protect the seagrass and the dome from UV radiation.

First of all, the UV protection: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Glass+tha … 6b4510efd3

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1961489 … 0radiation.
Quote:

Green glass
Green glass totally blocked UVA radiation, while blue glass transmitted the highest dose of radiation (56.8%). The presence of a sunlight control film totally blocked UVA radiation. All glasses totally blocked UVB radiation.
Author: Ida Duarte, Anita Rotter, Andrey Malvestiti, Mariana Silva
Publish Year: 2009

Apparently you could create panes of a material which would be protective from UVA. maybe UVB and if needed UVC also?

So, I am going to want to use a double dome. The upper dome is likely to be a tent sort of dome that can hold a bit of differential pressure inside of itself against the outside pressure on Mars. It will be avoided to have Oxygen in the tent dome, as it may react with the dome under the influence of UV light, as per SeaDragon's counsel some time back.

The Secondary submerged dome would have UV protectives in it and might be composed of easily removable panes in a frame of some kind. The composition of the frame will need to be resistive of corrosion in salt water, or fresh water.

The secondary dome will divide the water of a pond or lake or canal on top from that on the bottom.

Reasonably attempts will be made to keep the upper waters relatively sterile. To prohibit the growth of Alga?, Algae , other microbes.

A forced stratification will allow more dissolved gasses to be kept in the lower water. It will likely allow higher temperatures in the lower water.

The upper water might use a little thermal and/or salt gradients stratification to allow the bottom to be warmer than the top.

While the surface of the top water might be icy at times, it would also be possible to let it get warm to the limits of the strength of the top dome, and to use a compressor to withdraw vapors from the dome to provide thermal regulation through evaporative cooling, and also to provide distilled water.

So, a solar distillation device, which would have a downstairs where you could grow aquatic plants.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-05 11:41:51)

Void · 2023-01-05 13:52:05

I will put this here as an incidental item.

My intention is to point out a relationship which might be missed while arguing about climate issues. I am not putting this here to irritate certain members.

I simply want to follow and note things that appear to be happening.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juHoVLjo4HU
Quote:

China’s solar panel price war will double solar panel installations globally
The Electric Viking

https://www.scmp.com/business/china-bus … s-globally

I am willing to subscribe to the notion that China burning coal to make solar panels is not that great for CO2 content in the atmosphere. But that is not what I am posting about.

China needs the income, and is not going to stop, unless we can come up with something other than coal or other fossil fuels.

Again, that is not a moral issue I care to comment on.

What I notice is that China's coal and labor, will build energy supplies for other locations. For themselves as well.

A solar installation is supposed to be waranteed for 25 to 30 years, so an installation provides an energy supply. Even in Germany.

It is true that it may not make sense environmentally or even immediately economically, but once installed it is an energy supply, and may make a difference to future unfolding of geopolitical events.

But, yes, this may be a terraform effect on the world's climate.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-05 21:34:44)

Void · 2023-01-05 21:36:07

I have taken an interest in Uranus.....

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Pl … &FORM=VIRE

Project Icarus: The Gas Mines of Uranus : Discovery News

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Project%2 … cc=0&ghpl=

So, if you probe there are thing to learn: https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna43232067
Quote:

You guessed it; the best helium-3 supply in the solar system is from the "Gas Mines" of Uranus.
That the planet which is the butt of so many poor jokes should be relatively rich in methane as well is purely coincidental, but as a mining site it has several advantages. The surface gravity, which is defined from the 1 bar pressure level in a gas giant's atmosphere, is 90 percent that of Earth's and the speed needed to reach low orbit is lowest of all the gas planets. Uranus's rings are also high, thin and not showering the atmosphere below with a hail of meteors, unlike Saturn's.

https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna43232067
Quote:

One day on Uranus takes about 17 hours (the time it takes for Uranus to rotate or spin once). And Uranus makes a complete orbit around the Sun (a year in Uranian time) in about 84 Earth years (30,687 Earth days). Uranus is the only planet whose equator is nearly at a right angle to its orbit, with a tilt of 97.77 degrees – possibly t… See more

I will rest better if I just erase what I had and consider it some more, perhaps for some time. But Uranus is certainly interesting and so is Helion Fusion. In truth, if they can make Helium 3, the need for gas giant fusion fuels is very far in the future anyway.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-05 22:34:21)

Void · 2023-01-06 12:14:54

So, I have reconsidered. I have never been particularly fond of the notion of a ship diving into deep atmosphere to collect mass.

But I am wondering about a magnetic scoop involved with a nuclear fusion propulsion device.

The Bussard Ramjet has some things to indicate about its potential. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bussard_ramjet
As it happens Dr. Robert Zubrin has looked into it over time.
Quote:

Feasibility
Since the time of Bussard's original proposal, it has been discovered that the region surrounding the Solar System has a much lower density of hydrogen than was believed at that time (see Local Interstellar Cloud). John Ford Fishback made an important contribution to the details for the Bussard ramjet in 1969.[2] T. A. Heppenheimer analyzed Bussard's original suggestion of fusing protons, but found the Bremsstrahlung losses from compressing protons to fusion densities was greater than the power that could be produced by a factor of about 1 billion, thus indicating that the proposed version of the Bussard ramjet was infeasible.[3] However, Daniel P. Whitmire's 1975 analysis[4] indicates that a ramjet may achieve net power via the CNO cycle, which produces fusion at a much higher rate (~1016 times higher) than the proton–proton chain.
Robert Zubrin and Dana Andrews analyzed one hypothetical version of the Bussard ramscoop and ramjet design in 1985.[citation needed] They determined that their version of the ramjet would be unable to accelerate into the solar wind. However, in their calculations they assumed that:
The exhaust velocity of their interplanetary ion propulsion ramjet could not exceed 100,000 m/s (100 km/s);
The largest available energy source could be a 500 kilowatt nuclear fusion reactor.
In the Zubrin/Andrews interplanetary ramjet design, they calculated that the drag force d/dt(mv1) equals the mass of the scooped ions collected per second multiplied by the velocity of the scooped ions within the solar system relative to the ramscoop. The velocity of the (scooped) collected ions from the solar wind was assumed to be 500,000 m/s.
The exhaust velocity of the ions when expelled by the ramjet was assumed not to exceed 100,000 m/s. The thrust of the ramjet d/dt(mv2) was equal to the mass of ions expelled per second multiplied by 100,000 meters per second. In the Zubrin/Andrews design of 1985, this resulted in the condition that d/dt(mv1) > d/dt(mv2). This condition resulted in the drag force exceeding the thrust of the hypothetical ramjet in the Zubrin/Andrews version of the design.

So if Calliban wishes we could get some more enlightenment about this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CNO_cycle
He has already indicated that p-p fusion is not that productive, but I wonder if a Helion * 10 big orbital device might be able to do the CNO-cycle. This is mentioned respectfully, I hope that will be understood. Sincerely.

This is also of interest: https://www.centauri-dreams.org/2017/12 … nd-beyond/

And the above is just a big magnetic field that might somehow scoop stuff off of Uranus.

This prior post indicates some of the parameters of Uranus: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 96#p204796

There will be a difference between 1 bar Uranus atmosphere and the atmospheric bare minimum of Uranus gasses that could be scooped.

As in a space elevator, the distance traveled at the low end of this measure will be less than that at the bare minimum of Uranus gasses that could be scooped. So, the scoop would be traveling that much faster, and would also not go as deep into the gravity well of Uranus.

And I think I will leave it there. We will have so much Deuterium fusion fuels from the Earth and nearer objects, and Helion says they can manufacture Helium 3, so the need for bothering with Uranus, is not that pressing and Uranus is not that attractive at this time.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-06 12:31:05)

Void · 2023-01-06 12:37:15

For some time, I have participated in the notion of lakes with coverings as a method to do some activities on Mars.

Now I think I have a modification of that that borrows from several people. Isaac Arthur, Dr. Johnson, Spacenut, and perhaps Robert Dyck at least.

It will be the target of heliostats. I will make a drawing in a bit if I can. But about Heliostats, I found this:

"Transformers for Lunar Extreme Environments - Origami Heliostats"

Images: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=%2 … HoverTitle

This appears to be the organization: https://www.robertsalazar.design/services/

Had a lot of trouble with Bing, getting into what I had on my phone. That is not an unusual experience. I guess this will do, we know what Heliostats are: https://www.nasa.gov/feature/trans-form … 20%28EE%29.

What I am working towards could work in that lunar environment, but I am focused on Mars

We can have a look at this:

Isaac Arthur has talked about putting mirror focus though a portal, for activities on the Moon.
Dr. Johnson has talked about his Mushroom House.
Spacenut has talked about an aquarium above a room.
And Robert Dyck has indicated fixed mirrors for greenhouses to increase illumination.
And we may also consider mobile "Transformer" Heliostats as well.

So, I think I will rest soon.

I was thinking about Greek Soldiers holding shields to light ships on fire, but I read that was a hoax.

But we might consider robots that can carry a reflector and point it, and clean it. Maybe when not needed for that task they might do other things?

Anyway, I like this "Focus House", derived from Dr. Johnson's "Mushroom House".

Done.

I forgot to mention, on top of the "Bubble" can be a mirror(s) that then can deflect light downward, that is sent by heliostats.

The Bubble will not share fluids with the cylinder water. The bubble could be filled with an oil, which would probably yellow over time from radiation. The bubble is inflated to a relatively low pressure and that pressure is retained by tensile strength. So, then the bubble rests on the concave roof of the cylinder, to give it pressurization.

The bubble could also be filled with brine, supposing the brine would not damage the film of the bubble. Oxygen would be excluded from the interior of the bubble to avoid chemical reactions in the influence of U.V.

The Bubble might even be filled with Ice. Not so sure about that.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-06 13:20:40)

Void · 2023-01-06 18:42:44

I am trying to develop and accumulate notions for Mars at times in this topic. I think I have a nice setup now; the last post was perhaps a sort of schematic of possible notions but could be taken in many directions. I think that that is a good thing.

Now, I think that in a new way I will bring back a protective pillow notion. It will be a gravity device to help create a downward pressure on an underlayer chamber. But it will also be optical, and thermal in features as well.

I have had things similar to this before, but I feel that this is getting there:

The triangle side view could actually be an inflatable balloon of some type. Pressure needed is relatively small.

Side B would likely face the equator, and would have a reflective foil placed over it to both serve as a mirror and to protect side B from the elements.

Side A would be a window, and it may be noticed that since it is vertical, it may be easier to keep clean than other orientations.

Side C is another window, but likely will have the light blue fill layer over it. It could be some form of water, or oil or clear marbles. It is there to apply some gravitational pressure.

If it were oil that could be insulating like whale blubber. I have feared that it would yellow in the presence of radiation, and likely it will eventually, but I intend to seek to moderate U.V. at the Heliostats if possible.

This suggests that it is possible to improve the spectrum, if you want to exclude U.V. from reflected light.

https://www.glassnmirrors.com/do-mirror … -uv-light/

Quote:

Many people claim that glass helps prevent skin damage due to sunlight because it can block UV light. Given that some types of mirrors are also partially made of glass, do mirrors reflect UV light?
As a general rule, most mirrors will only reflect a very small amount of UV light as the glass on the front of them absorbs the majority. In saying this, mirrors that are made from polished aluminum can reflect as much as 80% of the UV light.
To better explain the scientific concepts at work here, I’ve written this article as an introduction and discussion about how UV light interacts with mirrors and other reflective surfaces.
Do mirrors reflect UV light
What Is UV Light?
Ultraviolet (UV) light refers to a type of electromagnetic radiation that originates from the sun. Several studies have shown that it can cause significant damage to living cells.
Much like visible light, UV rays are transmitted in particles or waves. Because the range of the wavelengths varies, experts have also identified 3 sub-bands of UV light:
UVA
Also known as near UV, the wavelengths for this type fall somewhere from 315 to 400 nanometers. Of the three, this is the closest to the visible light spectrum. About 95% of all UV radiation that reaches humans belongs to this sub-band.
UVB
The middle UV has a wavelength range of 280 to 315 nanometers. This is the type of UV light that can be almost completely absorbed by the glass.
UVC
This is referred to as the far UV. Its wavelength ranges from 180 to 280 nanometers. The planet’s atmosphere absorbs all UVC that enters from the sun so it is not considered as harmful, unlike the damage that UVA and UVB can cause to people’s health.
Do mirrors have lag? See my post showing the truth.
Take note that various environmental factors determine how much UV radiation may be expected. For example:
Presence of Clouds – The lack of clouds in the sky means that the UV light reaching the ground is at its highest level. A few stray clouds have minimal effect on filtering UV radiation. In certain cases, their scattering may even boost UV radiation. Read my full article that explains Do mirrors reflect heat?
You might assume that a cloudy day will completely protect you from the effects of UV. However, staying unprotected under the sky, especially around highly reflective surfaces, will cause skin damage, too.
Type of Ground – As you will learn later on in this article, different kinds of surfaces can reflect UV light.
Those who are hanging out at the beach may still be exposed to UV even if they are under an umbrella because dry sand can reflect up to 18% UV. At around 80%, fresh snow reflects even more UV radiation than grassy areas, which can reflect about 5% of UV light only. Could the cold of the snow cause your mirror to break?
Altitude
The higher your location is, the greater the exposure to UV radiation is going to be. According to experts, it increases by 10% for every 1,000 meters (or 3,280.84 feet) in altitude.
Why?
The atmosphere gets thinner the higher you go. As such, there is also less atmosphere to absorb UV light.

Well, I am still learning. That is a good thing: https://www.climatepro.com/blog/does-wi … s%20itself.
Quote:

How Does Window Film Protects Us From Ultraviolet (UV) Rays?
There are three types of UV rays: UVA, UVB, and UVC. UVC rays are blocked by the atmosphere. UVB rays are blocked by the glass itself. UVA rays are the kind that can be blocked by window film. 3M™ Window Film blocks 99% of the sun's UVA rays. It's an affordable and effective way to protect your family and helps to safeguard your home furnishings. How does 3M™ Window Film work?

God Bless 3M!

OK, then this covers UVC: (And UVB): https://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q … %20blocked.
Quote:

UV-C is produced only by specialized lights and the sun. When produced by the sun, UV-C does not penetrate the earth's atmosphere. Standard window glass, according to the International Ultraviolet Association, will allow UV-A to pass through while almost 100% of the UV-B and UV-C light is blocked.
Does solar UV penetrate window glass? - Health Physics Society
hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q12082.html
hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q12082.html

So, then there are choices, as to how to block and what to block and then you decide how that should be.

So, we may use stupid plastic films as long as we protect them correctly and they should last even on Mars for an extended period of time.
The glass could be on the Heliostat mirrors or on wall A of the lean-to hut. It is debatable which is better. A would suffer from cracking if the heliostats suddenly change the thermal situation on the glass. Glass on the Heliostats would not, and it would perhaps be easy to clean by robots.

Back to the diagram, the box below contains water and a green enclosure inside of that. Hydrilla, Alga/Algae/Cyanobacteria, and Sea Grass are possible crops. It would also be possible to have air filled chambers as well, but more trouble to do that.

Done.

Well, actually side B could have solar panels put on it as well, over the reflective foil, as it may be the correct angle to the sun and is to face the equator.

Very nice!

Done.

And Spacenut came up with something today as well: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 13#p204813

https://plasticranger.com/best-uv-resistant-plastics/

Thank You for that Spacenut!

Done

I want to make the note that with the use of Heliostats and stationary mirrors, very large concentrations of light could be put into the enclosures, to try to simulate Earth luminosity, and to compensate for attenuation of light through windows, reflective optics, and clear fluids.

It may also be true that by these methods heat may be collected and stored, while utilizing the photons that can feed Photo life.

Done

We might use this method atop the canals I have mentioned here: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 59#p204659

And here: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 64#p204664

The canals do not have to be circles but could be other polygonal shapes.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-06 20:20:21)

Void · 2023-01-08 11:36:00

I guess I will start this post with the "Water Closet"

Actually, a water library: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 15#p204715

I consider the water deposits in the Valles Marinaris to be different, as we don't really know how they are and how they have come to be there.

But for Mid Latitude ice slabs we have some more defining information. This one is very useful: https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/mars-ice- … e-superior

› Water ice makes up half or more of an underground layer in a large region of Mars about halfway from the equator to the north pole.
› The amount of water in this deposit is about as much as in Lake Superior. It was assessed using a radar aboard a NASA spacecraft orbiting Mars.

At the latitude of this deposit -- about halfway from the equator to the pole -- water ice cannot persist on the surface of Mars today. It sublimes into water vapor in the planet's thin, dry atmosphere. The Utopia deposit is shielded from the atmosphere by a soil covering estimated to be about 3 to 33 feet (1 to 10 meters) thick.

Here, is shown how history has done some earth moving for us, perhaps: https://www.space.com/30502-mars-giant- … y-mro.html
y8wdkgyDUgZPW7grfHTgZQ-1200-80.jpg.webp

Canals as I have previously suggested might be good in this ice slab, but they might do very well in this crater. If arrays of heliostats can be placed as useful on the crater walls, they may be pointed towards a target where a solar concentration is desired.

Sublimation mining of ice may be useful for this. I like to imagine a laser as the tool for it but others may work as well. If the subsurface is 50-85% I said regolith, but I intended to say ice, and you start a tunnel from some point, you might shine a laser to heat the end of the tunnel up. Ideally the rock will drop as the water is evaporated. Then you use a compressor to compress the vapors to water for your canals inside the crater.

So with the crater wall solar concentration methods and the relatively easy mining method, a rather good situation might be obtained, where it is better than the average Martian surface situation. Evaporative tunnels might reveal minerals as well, as you might have a Sniffer Bot that might sample the regolith in the tunnels for desired materials.

It may also be true that some part of the impactor survived as it was cooled by an icy patch of regolith that it impacted.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-08 22:34:07)

Void · 2023-01-08 12:09:54

Continuing with the previous post, arrays of heliostats in craters will allow distribution of photons, so that they may be pointed to greenhouse type operations or power plants.

Eavor technology would allow the pumping of hot fluids for storage into deep undergrounds, so that staying power would exist through dust storms.

https://www.eavor.com/

So, with these tubes, it might be possible that geothermal would heat them, but you may pump hot fluids into them as well, from your solar thermal method. Also, if you desired, the heliostats could focus on solar panels and generate electricity and flow an electric current though Eavor tubes to also heat them.

And if we wanted a simulation of an Antarctic Dry Valley Lake, that could be done instead of canal systems. Those are multi-month thermal storage systems as well.
Lake Vanda:
https://www.bing.com/search?q=Lake+Vand … 68bf6cd1f6
Lake Bonney:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Bonney_(Antarctica)

So, heliostat mirrors would be part of the power distribution system, and so less so electrical conductors and switchyards.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-01-08 12:15:36)

Void · 2023-01-08 22:49:33

Craters that appear to be in icy areas seem like good places to consider setting up camp, for the reason that if water is confirmed, the crater gives higher and lower solar energy places. A sun facing angle might be a good place for solar installations. Those then can be focused on a target, if they are heliostats by nature.

This is not that unlike seeking peaks on the Moon at the south pole that have extra solar energy and are near water resources.

So, we might look for "Splosh" or "Splash" craters, then confirm the presence of the water ice.

This is an example: https://www.autoevolution.com/news/spla … 78828.html

https://s1.cdn.autoevolution.com/images … 7.jpg.webp

Here is another one: https://www.lpi.usra.edu/publications/s … ide_7.html

Of course, they can tell from orbit if there is water ice/mud near the surface, by this time.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-08 22:57:40)

Void · 2023-01-09 11:27:26

A centralized focus of installations around a resource such as a crater, would allow for augmentation with solar energy delivered from orbit as well.

So, human activity is basically materials manipulated intentionally using energy resources.

Hydrogen to orbit, if needed would allow ocean habitats in orbit as well.

I am open to imagination. Isaac Arthur said:
https://isaacarthur.net/video/oceans-in … preserves/

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-09 11:29:12)

Void · 2023-01-10 21:50:38

To be sure, I am still strongly interested in what SpaceX, Tesla, and other Elon Musk enterprises may do. I still want
All the space freaks to keep going, all of them.

But it seems that Bill Gates is "A pike in the weeds". Something I have wanted to hold as my label.

He is invested in Stokes Space now it seems and also this: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=%2 … &FORM=VIRE

I can't not adore it.

I was speaking of crater heliostats, anyway, so why would I not like it.

Query: ""The main reason revealed" , Bill Gates Solar Energy Startup. Everything you need to know. Utube"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=%22The%20 … cc=0&ghpl=

I am currently considering the value of orbital microgravity bodies of water, their potential value is how humans could work with them.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-10 21:52:53)

Void · 2023-01-11 22:10:48

Just for a visual, this again: https://www.space.com/30502-mars-giant- … y-mro.html
y8wdkgyDUgZPW7grfHTgZQ-1200-80.jpg.webp
This an article about the solar apparatus: https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/24/business … index.html
Video: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=%2 … &FORM=VIRE

The downside for Mars will be dust. Upside is not much wind or hail. Low gravity .38 g And land available.

This system is supposed to be able to make Hydrogen and give industrial grade heat. Another downside is that the sunshine is not as intense.

A fix for that could be orbital mirrors. What if you used orbital mirrors to give 4 times the sunshine a location normally gets? So, don't use orbital mirrors to melt the ice caps (Vaporize them actually). Well maybe the CO2 portion as might prove convenient.

But make lots of greenhouse gasses along with generating material wealth.

And perhaps also use the contours of the craters to help create a Heliostat Focus.

But I like the idea of orbital habitations around Mars anyway, so now I am again interested in water in orbit of Mars.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-11 22:25:19)

Void · 2023-01-11 22:44:44

So, to shine light into water in orbit, I would prefer to have a Chevron method.

So, anyway, the purpose of Chevron Mirrors is to block impactors but let light though. The drawings above have chevrons, but are not new thinking in themselves.

So, if you have a "Can' in orbit with a chevron covering over one end, you may point that end at the sun, or use outside mirrors to introduce reflected light.

New you might put a glass layer on the inside of the Chevrons, the glass will block much UVC and UVB light.

Next you can put a film that blocks UVA, which I understand 3M makes.

Then a balloon inside the cylinder that is having a transparent character for the window. This is to hold some air pressure.

You may then have water containments which are also to be transparent. These will block hard radiation, and will be able to grow living things using light.

Technically if you filled them with salt water you could have that water at -15 degrees Centigrade, and the vapor pressure would be almost zero. But you do need some pressure so that gasses can be dissolved. I just wanted to state the approximate limit temperature and pressure wise.

For fresh water at 0 degrees Centigrade, then ~6 millibars. Why this would be done, I don't know, but you could.

So, now you have a solar powered bioprocess. You might also dump excess heat and generate power by some heat engine.

But now you have a can with light and radiation protection and Oxygen production. You can put a synthetic gravity habitat inside of it.

And as these cans do not themselves spin; you may connect them to other structures.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-11 22:58:36)

Void · 2023-01-12 11:08:54

I am really not looking to design a specific device, but to consider methods that might be considered for an attempt.

A think that interests me is to get multiple benefits from something. Water can grow food, and also protect from radiation, and moderate temperature swings.

Isaac Arthur has had notions on the use of water in space, and so has our Calliban.

https://isaacarthur.net/video/oceans-in … preserves/

And: https://soundcloud.com/isaac-arthur-148 … nic-aliens

Just now, I am thinking of Solar Salt Ponds, and Antarctic Lake Simulations in orbit.

We can consider any gravity simulation from micro-gravity to 1 g or more.

Generally, gravity promotes liquid thermal convection. This then mixes the salt gradients and destroys the thermal collection process.

Salt Gradients fight against convective mixing. Winds are a problem on Earth for mixing the salt gradients.

While we might want solar panels in orbit, or solar concentrators, this other path might be included in the Mix.

We have been conditioned to think of Mars as a Desert Planet, and I guess according to some forms of analysis, it is. But Calliban has caused me to see that in Terraforming Mars, we want to keep running water down to a minimum, to avoid the absorption of atmospheric chemicals into the regolith.

Some estimates put the amount of Mars water at 100 feet / 30 meters for the entire surface if spread. Of course, we may only impound water to cover 25% of the surface??? So then 400 feet / 120 meters for that 25%. (I think that there is more than 100 feet / 30 meters actually.

So, in my opinion, beginning with Mars, we have plenty of water and as we wo out in the solar system a whole lot more.

I am going to draw somethings......

Taking advantage of lack of convection to heat up water.

Keeping in mind that this might cycle CO2/Oxygen & Organic Mass. It may also be helpful to generate electricity, and it may protect space habitats from hard radiation.

Also, providing a temperate temperature section that a space habitat could be housed in.

Keep in mind that space also offers a much deeper cold, and also you might consider this to be a preheat section. You may also heat the water further with mirrors.

So, the Earth being a flooded planet, and yet with lots of gravity, I don't know how much we would care to do this from the Earth's waters.
But Mars, Ceres, Trojans, Callisto >>>>Oort Cloud, probably in some way. Granted solar becomes less and less effective and perhaps eventually useless but anyway, I think that the notion might be evaluated anyway.

This one has spin gravity so that the sunlight facing window will not have to hold back a strong differential pressure:

Once again it is likely capable of fostering photo organisms, is a part of a solar power system, and can give radiation and thermal assistance in orbit. And once again we have the heat sink of the universe. And once again the warm/hot water can be just a preheat prior to using concentrating mirrors.

But it is only notions. I do not propose that these notions are ready for prime time. And of course, they have to be worth the effort to create them. If not, then humans do not prosper, and I think we want humans to prosper.

I think I have had it. Need rest.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-12 12:00:27)

Void · 2023-01-12 19:45:26

In the beginning though, I would think a large enclosure with lighting, Could have plastic bags of water placed on the inside of the outer walls.
It might even be like intestines, where the water would flow, with green organisms in it.

This would then allow for a centrifuge of some kind for experiments in synthetic gravity in the inside of the canister.

Sort of drifting in the direction of more ambitious things.

I want to relax tonight so that is about all for now.

Done.

Void · 2023-01-13 11:12:34

This came to me today, and with a little consideration it does matter very much: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQRD3hNnxN8 Quote:

Incredibly, Cyanobacteria Could Thrive on Mars, Producing Oxygen
Anton Petrov

The "Cheats" that they use to make Cyanobacteria thrive in an improved Martian environment, are likely quite achievable in an ice covered canal on Mars.

And similar could be done with this in orbit. From post #768:
This one has spin gravity so that the sunlight facing window will not have to hold back a strong differential pressure:

It might be modified though. I am looking to create a radiation shield, and produce Oxygen, and biomass. Maybe even harness energy, but that seems something to consider later.

So, I will start with what I remember about ponds about 6 feet deep. That is about the minimum depth where fish can survive a winter typically for loss of Oxygen over the winter. (Maybe). Anyway, dealing with fresh water, during the winter, the 39 degree water settles to the bottom, and of course above that will be colder water, and then ice. (Presuming a higher latitude winter situation.

So, I will start with that. As it happens a human in a protective suit could move about in such water.

Some conversions for the "Civilized" of our members:
6 feet = 1.8288 meters
39 degrees F = 3.88888889 C
32 degrees F = 0 C

It happens that I Rember the numbers in non-metric units.

Technically, the ice above the pond can have a temperature well below 0 degrees C. Very Low. But that leaves us wondering how we put the system in place in the first place.

I am looking for windows that have to hold minimum air pressure. I am almost certainly doing overkill, but I want to find the minimum possible. Really, I might just estimate.

Probably down to less than 1 millibar is possible while freezing of the ice can be maintained.

In reality, we would want windows that would hold more if needed, but to avoid leakage, a lower operational pressure might be preferred.

So, in this case I am going to suppose about 1 g of centrifugal force on the outer layer of the tube.

We might want to change the tubes orientation so that the sun's outbursts might be blocked as well as GCR.

In reality the right side might be facing the sun, and perhaps have water or ice included into it.

A mirror system "Behind" The cylinder would bounce light from the sun into the cylinder. At the left side of the picture. If possible, the mirrors may filter the types of light that can be reflected, perhaps avoiding U.V. if possible.

The proportions would be much different as the cylinder has to have enough circumference so that people don't get sick.

The water and ice layer would not be nearly as thick as I display in the picture.

I will make a new picture......

Keep in mind that I do not intend this as final or completed yet. But it does point to a direction. Perhaps much better can be had over time.

The garden capsule method might even be possible in the "Pond", where you would place pressurized capsules with garden crops into the pond. A little tricky as you then need an airlock method.

This does cover the sun radiation issue to a degree. Some GCR might get in though the right end, but it would be reduced. As I have said, this could be improved. Maybe even an ice window for GCR, but I don't want to commit to that.

The non-rotating shield A would likely be connected to another such with a counter spinning cylinder to deal with gyroscopic effects.

In reality I just wanted to open up the concept for thoughts.

Now we go back down to Mars and do similar.

Just an opportunity to suggest why Ice is really good.

We may enter some of the cheat methods into the water under it, and hope to achieve the growth of a photo organism, and perhaps support capsule greenhouses.

We are going to try to be indifferent as to the salts that are in the water. Actually, thinking of fresh water, but maybe allowing some salts to seep in. Handling Perchlorates as needed.

The Tent-Dome above this might have an additional pressurization of 6 millibars, so that in an average location on Mars, the pressure on the surface of the ice of the pond would be 12 millibars.

I don't think we need to go as high in our game as the people spoken of by Anton Petrov went. We can maybe have an ice layer 2 feet thick. That gives an additional pressure of 18 millibars. This is all approximations. So then 0 degrees C water at 30 millibars in reality it only needs 6.1, so the 12 Millibars in the dome would be sufficient for liquid fresh water.

This particular situation is salt water, but we already have one for fresh water in some of my previous posts: https://www.sciencenews.org/article/alg … winter-ice

Since we have a ~30 millibar lid under the ice, we can pump Martian air into the water to dissolve it. The photo organic process will yield Oxygen and biomass. The mix that bubbles out of the solution and could be collected under the ice will be heavy on Oxygen and have some Nitrogen and Argon.

It might be preferred to exclude Oxygen from the area above the ice and under the dome, so that it will not react with the presumed plastic Dome/Tent.

So, now the pond at least 6 feed deep, might allow humans in special suits to survive and work, and incidentally be protected radiation to a large extent.

The biomass might be food and fuel, and perhaps building materials as well.

That's enough for now.

--------

As for the orbital method, while water is heavy to loft to orbit from Earth, it may come from worlds with less gravity, and maybe in some cases Oxygen would come also from low gravity situations to help create water with Hydrogen from other locations.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-13 12:57:21)

Void · 2023-01-13 12:57:49

I guess I want to go on with this some more:

For the Toroid B, I don't see why multiple floors would not be done. The floors could help to hold the walls. You could also use tensile cables for that as well.

As for the 1 g cylinder pond only 11 feet of water would hold a pressure of 333 Millibars. (~ 33 feet of water is 1 bar on Earth). But of course, you have to adjust for ice being .92 as dense as water, and the g forces being less as you move up the water column.

But, if you went to 16 feet, you might have leeway so that a person without a pressure suit could swim on the "Bottom".

Do 33 feet + needed compensation and you can have 1000 millibars.

How far can light travel though clear water?

https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/light_travel.html
Quote:

How far does light travel in the ocean?
Light may be detected as far as 1,000 meters down in the ocean, but there is rarely any significant light beyond 200 meters.

656.167979 feet is far more than is needed.

Let's try 50 feet, and water clarification methods.

This would be a cross section:

You might use mechanical means to keep freshwater stratification, but you might also include salt gradients, although people moving through the water would cause mixing.

The upper layers of water could be kept nutrient free to prohibit the growth of microbes so that the light can get through.

So, technically you could grow things attached to the bottom and swim though them.

Sea Grass for instance.

As you would not be just on the bottom your radiation protection should be of some use.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-13 13:16:21)

Void · 2023-01-13 13:41:25

So, we have a way to have very low-pressure windows to feed light into water column pressurized centrifugal ponds.

This may greatly reduce the cost of conducting light from a vacuum environment to a living environment.

I agree with Calliban and Isaac Arthur that as we move outward we will have more and more water to build things with. So, learning the uses of water will be important.

While I love the notion that various types of nuclear may be developed over time for space use, the fact Elon Musk has stated that the sun is a nuclear reactor, is true all the way out to Pluto.

Granted, I suspect that after Saturn the size of mirrors becomes a bit ridiculous, but even so, let us not limit ourselves if we are not forced to by reality.

I feel that beginning with Mars/Phobos/Deimos and continuing outward to Ceres/Asteroids and then Callisto>>>>>Further, building with water and mirrors may be quite productive. It does not mean that you would never make any other habitat, but this sort of thing could be a bulk creator of Oxygen and biomass for human use.

Not a bad deal to work on, I feel.

Done.

Void · 2023-01-13 19:27:21

Well, I think I need to work on the orbital device more.

Added Baffles to reduce sloshing of fluids:

The transparent divider between the two layers of water could have dimples and so then air bubbles in the dimples.

As far as maintaining cold and even ice at the top of the top layer, many things have to be considered.

So, they can be worked on, over time. I have ideas for and about that.

I am beginning to think of one of these that would be a bit more like a torus, and where people might actually live in containments inside the water.

It could be quite amusing. I will work on it more later though. Pretty tired tonight.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-13 19:35:41)

Void · 2023-01-14 04:13:25

Insomnia, but I did find a really nice calculator for vapor pressure of water:

Vapor Pressure of Water Calculator
http://endmemo.com/chem/vaporpressurewater.php

So, we might calculate for 10 degrees C, if we don't want to deal with ice. That gives 12.2118 millibar. They grey area is where that pressure is desired, so for this post we can call that the "Grey Pressure". So, we try that:

The above has indicated as an addition a cylindrical tent to retain an air/vapor pressure. The tent may be stopped from squeezing like a sphincter, by the use of a cylinder of expanded metal.

The notion of expanded metal is only to give a notion of a retaining cylinder that lets light in. A better notion might be a net with small sinkers attached to in in multiple places. Then we can use centrifugal force to counter the vapor pressure force.

But expanded metal anyway, as that is an option: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expanded_metal
Here are some images: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Ex … C2&first=1

In this example I have not been specific about handling UV light, or micrometeors. Methods can be added as needed and convenient. Prior posts may have options to use.

Unlike in the case of Mars surface it will be hard to maintain 10 degree C water on the top of the light blue water. But a way is evaporative cooling. Now you just pull vapors off from the top layer and cool it that way while distilling fresh water.

Another way to maintain thermal difference would be a heat pump that pulls heat off the top layers and dumps it into the lower layers.
Methods to create salt gradients would also be employed, if the water is stratified brine.

The lower blue layer could be as salty or fresh as is desired, as it is indicated to have a partition between it and the overlying light blue water.

If we wanted a different "Grey Pressure":
20 degrees C = 23.2977 millibars.
-20 degrees C = 1.2230 millibars.
-60 degrees C = 0.0165 millibars.

Dealing with temperatures below zero will either require brines or ice at the surface.

Other ways to maintain thermal balance other than evaporative cooling would be to have a dry heat rejection heat exchanger outside in the shadows and use it to provide a cooled fluid.

If you want to you can do a solar salt pond and actually turn this thing into a power generator, using a heat engine, while maintaining the temperature stratifications. That may still allow some extreme photo organisms in some layers of water.

I have tried to not over specify the device(s), as there are many variations possible, and more research is needed as well for some of those.

The lower the "Grey" pressure, the less centrifugal weighting is needed for the "Grey Pressure" web to keep it from collapsing.

You could send much more than normal Earth level lighting into the device, but that again may not be tolerated well by many organisms you might want to grow in the "Power Plant".

But you might find something that likes it. Something extreme no doubt. This is a hint: https://www.academia.edu/34640718/Engin … vironments.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10845466/

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-14 05:00:46)

Void · 2023-01-14 11:42:38

If we are going to build with water, (In Part), then we also want to have a look at building with ice.

Now about ice: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice
Quote:

Ice is water frozen into a solid state, typically forming at or below temperatures of 0 degrees Celsius or 32 °F (0 °C; 273 K)[3][4] Depending on the presence of impurities such as particles of soil or bubbles of air, it can appear transparent or a more or less opaque bluish-white color.

Image Quote:

Brine ice is different from fresh water ice. It tends to have liquid brine channels in it that organisms can live in, and it is somewhat flexible.

A static layer of ice may not be a problem, but freeze-thaw cycles will impose mechanical problems as the ice forming expands and can break other mechanical devices when it does.

Handling ice will add problems. One simple notion would be to put ice tray like partitions of materials that can be squeezed. I don't want to obsess about solutions just yet. To use ice will cost trouble to handle. But ice can present a very low "Grey" pressure, and is insulating, and may block some U.V. light.

But we might avoid ice and simply maintain the "Grey" pressure. for tipple point fresh water, about 6.1 millibar, or for some sort of salt water at an even lower temperature and lower "Grey" pressure.

I have previously spoken of a sort of containment; I would like to suggest yet another. (There can be many variations).

Pause.....

Keep in mind that a "Grey" pressure might be only 1/100 th of sea level pressure, so that the retaining walls/windows for the grey containment does then not have to be all that strong. (Unless it explodes like a geyser. If it does, then poor design or sabotage/attack).

The outer circumference can use tensile strength of the building materials, and those could include high tension cables.

While the grey containment is still under spin, in part if will respond to centrifugal force and so oppose the effort of the "Grey" pressure to expand.

While I often try to blend multiple enclosures into a super structure, I sort of am thinking of a very large singular structure, and have moved towards a torus form, to try to avoid the gyroscopic tumble problems of cylinders. I may not have moved far enough towards a torus.

The grey containment may also include mirrors and shades to direct the sunlight better to the water.

Large external mirrors might convey concentrated sunlight to the device, if you are somewhere beyond Earth towards the outer solar system.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-14 12:18:22)

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