The green grass of Mars

SpaceNut · 2020-08-01 14:40:44

It is a far off future when we will walk on it on a planet that is not Earth "Green Grass" but how long before the first seeds will be brought there to grow.

These are the post that we have talk about Grass;

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=768#p768

thunder wrote:

A lot of people seem to think of Mars as a small, distant Earth with a thin atmosphere and no biosphere. And by thinking like that, solutions are made that won't work well if at all.
When the word "dirt" or "soil" is used, it conjures images of the brown stuff underneath the grass in the back yard. But there hasn't been rainfall on Mars in a very long time. Think of how hard the ground gets on Earth when it hasn't rained in a month or so. Most of the land on Mars is going to be very hard as the wind blows the smaller stuff out and the larger stuff compacts. ANd that's where there is dirt at all. Dirt is mainly produced by numerous weathering factors, but the two biggest things needed to create dirt are living things (such as plants) and water.

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=1577#p1577

Phobos wrote:

Can you think of any specific species of "weed" that makes a good and durable food plant? There's one we call miner's lettuce (i have no idea if that's the actual name or not) its a plant that merely has a grass like stem with a flat green disc stuck on top of it. It grows like mad up in the mountains where I live and doesn't taste to bad even though its not particularly attractive. I wonder if mushrooms and its related kin would make good plants considering that they're perfectly happy in the dark. Onions would probably grow well to.

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=1919#p1919

C M Edwards wrote:

NASA has sponsored research along these lines in the past. It's perfectly practical to subsist on a hydroponically grown vegetarian diet. The major nutrient lacking in such a "restricted" diet is not proteins or vitamins but table salt, which any Martian colony will need a reliable (and as yet unproven) source of. So even the earliest explorers can reasonably expect to successfully raise some of their own food.
There will be obstacles, all of which will need to be addressed before the first Martian gardeners ever leave Earth.
The climate will be a major pain when raising vegetables. A greenhouse will need heat and maybe supplemental light, which takes energy. Many plants will grow anywhere they get enough light and heat, but others are more picky. Fruiting plants especially require very precise timing of conditions during their growth cycles. Some which are light sensitive may not grow at all on Mars.
Another important point to consider when picking plants to grow on Mars is pollination.
Several plants, including specially bred varieties of plants that normally wouldn't be, are self pollinating. These include varieties of peas, beans and tomatoes. Other plants are wind pollinated. Given a little air circulation, they see to themselves. These include spinach and all grasses (corn, wheat, rice, etc.). But unless you're fine with a diet of peas & spinach, eventually you will need active pollinators for your Mars garden. Some plants -- squash, dates, etc -- have flowers large enough with enough pollen than people can pollinate them by hand efficiently enough to make a large crop. But for almost everything else, pollination means bugs.
Honeybees can service a lot of species, as can stingless bees. Those two species are fairly general pollinators, but their preferences do not completely overlap. Some useful plants are very selective, luring only one type of insect for pollination. Figs, for example, are prefered only by wasps.
And then there are the numerous fruits which are pollinated by flies. (Sorry, Cindy. The Martians may have to skip the cows and still be afflicted with hoards of flies.)
But bugs aren't too bad. Many species can also solve other food problems. Several species of bee produce honey. And fly larvae can be an excellent source of meat protein for the colonists without the mess and expense of cows or chickens.
It's a very complicated subject, with lots of room for original research by amatuers like us.
CME

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=5687#p5687

Palomar wrote:

i remember hearing something once about the advantages of small goats as a food source, obviously far less energy efficient than veggies, but maybe for special occasions?
*I think it'd be great to have small goats in a Marsian settlement; they are such interesting animals. However, I've begun to wonder if it'll be feasible to have such animals on Mars anytime soon, considering how much even one goat eats per day...even if plants and some grasses are growing in Marsian "hot houses" rather well.
It would, however, be a "fun fact" to note who was the first settler to get rammed in the butt by a goat!
Yes, it would behoove someone on Mars to jot down little notables like that!
--Cindy

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 124#p18124

Palomar wrote:

can't you get milk and cheese from goats?
What about miniture cows?
Pygmy pigs- hello bacon, ham, and pork chops- all in one.
*Yes...you can get milk and cheese from goats. But do you realize the vast amount of greens 1 goat (even a pygmy goat) eats in a single day? They eat A LOT. Sans expansive terraforming, grass couldn't be grown fast enough to keep up with consumption within an enclosed biodome.
How to feed even smaller breed cows and pigs? Corn would do the trick, have fun growing it fast enough to keep up with demand (even if genetically engineered, like Starlink).
--Cindy

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 279#p20279

clark wrote:

Dairy goats eat about 5 pounds of alfalfa hay a day, which is also supplemented with a mixture of grain (14-16% protein)
But hey, meat and dairy requires a much more advanced food chain base becuase you have to support animals to create it.
Perhaps they can monkey around with the pigs genes and make them produce goats milk though.

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 320#p20320

grommet37 wrote:

I posted this on another thread, but it bears on this subject, too:
My personal take on the subject of a future Martian ecosphere would be to utilize those very plants and animals which we find so hard to control on earth: the weed species. By this I mean all the so-called "invasive species", as well as all of the human-introduced "feral" species.

This would include all the "pests" commonly associated with people and their colonization of any area: cats, rats, dogs, pigeons, flies, fleas, ticks, spiders, ants, beetles, termites. Plants would include dandelion, clover, English Ivy, kudzu, crabgrass, purple loosestrife, thistle. For aquaculture, I recommend algae and carp (and tiger mussels).
Let's face it, if it's hard to kill, if it'll "grow anywhere", that's the stuff we want on our side. People were originally foragers, and ate lots of companion animals and bugs, too. These people will be explorers. They will be somewhat inured to hardship. They will need a source of protein which is not a major drain on their oxygen resources. Small mammals and birds are called for. As well as insects.
Not only are such animals as dogs, cats, and pigeons useful animals, in that they can be trained to perform useful work functions, they are easily handled by humans. Insects, too, perform many useful functions in the field and garden (pollinators, soil conditioning, etc.).
Further, our colonists will need a source of raw nutrients, besides just protein. What do doctors constantly tell us we never get enough of? Why our green leafy vegetables, that's right, the bitter greens, the salad greens, the primitive greens. What better source than LED-grown fresh young dandelions? And after the clover and the crabgrass has kicked the crap out of the Martian soil for us we can thank it, by (hopefully) choking it out with primitive grains like buckwheat and alfalfa. I think we'll have to work our way up to your cattle and apple trees.
One last note. An eminent entomologist who was also a theologian was asked if his many years of study of the processes of Nature had given him any insight into the character of the Creator. His reply was: "An inordinate fondness for beetles". I suggest we take a couple dozen varieties along to our new home, as well.
For more on Man and his pests, see Twain's "Letters From the Earth."

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 34#p157434

louis wrote:

The gorges can be planted with natural vegetation - trees, shrubs, grass, flowers and so on - and be landscaped with numerous paths, rope walkways, waterfalls, ponds, play areas, sports facilities and so on. Along the gorges retail and other units can be carved out of the rock.
These gorges I conceive of as natural leisure and recreational areas while the working day would be spent in surface habs and you would also have home habs where you slept . The home habs would have a combination of small real windows and also large artificial windows - live TV screens showing the external view at that point.

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 25#p159625

Oldfart1939 wrote:

Rob-
I disagree completely with your view on cattle feeding; after all, I only did this on a small scale (between 36 and 100 cows) for 22 years. I learned a lot from my Veterinarian neighbor about feeding and care of cattle. We do not initially need a bull, as tubes of semen are normally kept for years at liquid Nitrogen temperature. Once herd is established there will be ample bull calves born for herd propagation after the initial supply of semen is exhausted. A bull is sexually mature at 18 months, and cow calves are normally bred as late yearlings between 15 and 18 months.
Where did you get your information on feeding cattle? I normally irrigated and grew, cut, cured, and baled 90 tons of hay annually for winter feed of the herd. This was mostly grass hay with some clover and a bit of alfalfa mixed in as grown. It takes roughly 1.5 tons of hay to feed a cow 100 %, except for salt blocks with trace minerals added. This quantity is based on 7-8 months of feeding. Over my career as a part-time hobby rancher, I raised approximately 1,100 calves to market weight or for herd growth and mother cow replacement. Every rancher in the area was dependent on success of the hay crop for maintenance of the herds.
In response to Calliban--Algae can be extremely toxic if animals drink too much water containing significant quantities. They die by bloating. I'm not saying anything negative about the bottom line; it could be dried and processed into feed for all livestock. Cattle, poultry, and swine.

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 20#p164020

RobertDyck wrote:

louis wrote:
From their blurb:
"If “science is real magic”, then it’s time to meet the magic powder of science. Solein is a unique single-cell protein born from an equally extraordinary bioprocess of electricity and air. Its fully natural fermentation process is similar to the production of yeast, resulting in the purest and most sustainable protein in the world."
Well sounds like you are on the right lines with yeast...assuming they really have got a successful process there....
I must admit I thought they were chemically putting something together...excuse my ignorance.
Whenever some says "magic" or "magic powder" or "secret proprietary", my immediate response is bullshit! Be very careful of unsubstantiated claims.
Realize all plants use photosynthesis. Basic chemical process is:
6 CO2 + 6 H2O → 6 O2 + C6H12O6
Starch is polymerized by taking one hydrogen atom (H) from one molecule, and one hydroxyl (OH) from the other, and connecting the open bonds together. Sugar is a carbon ring, this links carbon rings together. The "H" and "OH" join together to form water.
Cellulose is also polymerization of sugar. The chemical formula is exactly the same; the only difference is which "H" or "OH" are removed to link sugars together. Human and other animals have enzymes in muscle cells and most cells to break apart starch back into individual sugar molecules. Sugar can then be used as an energy source, as food. But the way cellulose links it's sugars together, that enzyme doesn't work. Furthermore, because of the way sugars are bonded in starch, the starch molecule coils into a tight balls, and can branch. Cellulose is a straight molecule, doesn't branch and stiff. Cellulose is used as structural material for grass and other plants.
Lignin is formed by ripping open the carbon rings. It's also a polymer, but with carbon rings ripped open, the enzymes that animals use for digestion certainly won't work. And Lignin tends to cross-bond, so instead of a single chain, it's a far larger, more complicated structure. Lignin is the basis of wood. Trees are mostly made of cellulose and lignin.
The reason I'm going on about this: notice all starch, cellulose, and lignin are made from sugar. And all sugar is made of CO2 and water. That means the vast majority of all plants comes from air and water. There's a little bit of other substances in plants, but very little. For example, chlorphyll is the primary photodye used by plants to convert sunlight into electric charge that powers photosynthesis. Chlorophyll is a cage molecule made of carbon with 4 nitrogen atoms in the centre holding a single magnesium atom. It has a tail of carbon with methyll groups (CH3). I could go on but the point is it's mostly carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and nitrogen (CHON), which comes from air. There's only a single magnesium atom per molecule; that magnesium comes from soil.
So when this guy claims they produce protein from air, realize he's talking about growing something. The description claims "fully natural fermentation process is similar to the production of yeast". Un huh. That's really sounding like he's growing algae. Is this Spirulina?

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 18#p163718
Not sure where I was going with this in Dust, The health effects - danger to humans from both Moon and Mars

SpaceNut wrote:

Nice refreshing question as it ties in with global warming for the ocean rising and yet what we are seeing is not dust but fires...
If lowering of the ocean is what it takes then plumb the water to each household for waste removal and stop using fresh drinking water for the purpose.

SpaceNut wrote:

The fresh water is then used to keep the green grass growing, which in turn lessens the dust storms, as we are not flushing it...but that is for earth not so much moon or mars...

but in the end grey water for the green grass lawn would be a good use

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 60#p165060

Calliban wrote:

On Earth, the regions with the highest yields of wheat and barely, tend to be located in the northern hemisphere. There are three reasons:
1. Plenty of natural rainfall;
2. High land cost, leading to relatively intensive agriculture;
3. High insolation during summer months.
The final point may be a problem for Mars, with only half the sunlight intensity of Earth. Wheat and barely both benefit from long, hot summer days for the grains to reach maturity. Mars has a thinner atmosphere, with less cloud cover and the seasons are twice as long. Maybe, that will balance out the lower insolation effects. With longer seasons, we should hopefully get more than one crop per year. I think yields are difficult to determine. We will find out when we get there!
Presumably, barley could be grown under ETFE sheets, that are reinforced and regularly anchored to the ground with basalt fibres. Water would be heavily recycled, along with all mineral nutrients that don't make it into finished whisky. The spent mash could be recycled into animal feed. This could sustain animals during winter. During early spring and autumn, we could grow grass in fields not yet planted, to allow grazing.
Straw would be an important byproduct of Martian cereal agriculture. When compressed with glue, it would substitute for wood products. Alternatively, it could be bio refined into organic compounds.

I will be adding quotes as time allows.

Grass is calming, smells nice when freshly cut and is a source of food as well as an oxygen creator.

There are a large variety of these to chose from.

SpaceNut · 2020-08-01 15:57:00

I am reminded of a local business that makes and installs Sod as well as provides other grass services.

Sure in time each plot of the "My Hacienda" will some acreage set aside for the pleasures and uses of a nice lawn for running and jumping on.

Void · 2020-08-01 18:54:56

I hadn't thought of this:
Quote CME:

Several plants, including specially bred varieties of plants that normally wouldn't be, are self pollinating. These include varieties of peas, beans and tomatoes. Other plants are wind pollinated. Given a little air circulation, they see to themselves. These include spinach and all grasses (corn, wheat, rice, etc.).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-pollination

I think you could look at the difference between Tundra, and the Mammoth Stepp. The later is more grass, and did support large animals at high latitudes a while back. Some actually exists still. Don't know if it retains tolerance to frost/cold.

The Mammoth Steppe may be what you are looking for.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammoth_steppe

This is where I could be compatible with your desire for a green Mars. As the Mammoth Steppe grew on top of permafrost, then I may also have my underground seas.

Of course to have a Mammoth Steppe, you would need at least an Ozone layer, and perhaps dust control, and some significant warming up, by methods including greenhouse gasses. I would think that with snowfalls and melts, you might have hopes for parts of the Northern plains, and Hellas. It could be a nice world. But without significant Oxygen, I am guessing you need robots to graze the grass for you.

I like the mind picture though.

The Mammoth Steppe was supposedly much more nutritious than is our Tundra.

Done

Last edited by Void (2020-08-01 19:27:28)

SpaceNut · 2020-10-24 11:39:53

Well it took a few minutes to find to copy tis post to....

tahanson43206 wrote:

Here is a business opportunity that ** should ** work on Mars (and in transit to Mars) as well as it would on Earth ...
It ** should ** be possible for home owners (and perhaps even some renters with free space) to grow sod in terrariums using all LED light. LED lighting is now routinely used for growing lettuce (and other crops) in urban "farms".
The occasion for this idea for a small business for home development arises from a situation I'm seeing in the neighborhood. A homeowner decided to start over with a small 20x20 foot plot of land between the house and the sidewalk. The first step (after clearing) was to sprinkle a couple of bags of fall lawn mixture on the square. Sparrows began immediately to scoop up the seeds.
In anticipation that there won't be much to show for that investment next spring, it occurred to me that there might be a market for squares of sod grown over the winter in suitable enclosures indoors.
I'm not sure how to cost out the process ... the equipment would be a one-time investment. The seed and starter soil would be a one time investment as well, but specific to the season. Electricity costs would factor in, but I'm assuming they would not be the greater part of the expense. Water would be needed, although (I'm guessing) not a great deal would be needed. Perhaps a liter a week would be sufficient.
At Mars (or in transit) the same equipment and supplies would be needed.
How important would a patch of lawn be in a Mars habitat? It might assist to some small degree with oxygen production and CO2 consumption. It might assist to some small degree with air filtering. It might assist with addition of aromatic molecules to the air.
Edit#1: The web page at the link below provides plenty of encouragement for indoor greenhouse growing of sod.
The version of this that I would like to see is one that presumes "no" sunlight, and instead achieves success entirely with LED lighting.
On Mars, as discussed many times on this forum, it should be possible to collect sunlight with mirrors and other light guide equipment to provide lighting sufficient to grow sod. However, LED lighting would be an attractive option for underground living space, where having growing plants would be a psychological benefit.
(th)

Even under ground chambers for living with in could benefit from grass growing.

jfenciso · 2020-12-02 05:05:23

I suggest the use of grass from prairie grassland. A grass from prairie grassland doesn't need an LED light and could save electrical energy. And, prairie grass could sequester more carbon in the soil that could lead to an increase in the soil organic matter. High soil organic matter could help the soil more nourish and the microorganisms and plants could live healthy in Martian soil.

tahanson43206 · 2020-12-02 08:35:38

For jfenciso re #5

Thanks for continuing to contribute to the forum!

Your suggestion of prairie grass is interesting. When you said the grass would not need LED lighting, I was intrigued. Can you describe how you would provide light to the grass in various locations on Mars? In my post, I was thinking about providing the scent and feel of fresh grass inside a Mars habitat, far under ground. Your vision may have a different location in mind?

Since you were here most recently, the forum members have made some progress in delivering visual content for display. The images you may wish to show us can be stored on a web site called imgur.com. There is no charge. The web site provides a way for you to select a bit of bulletin board code that you then paste into the forum post.

There are numerous online and offline tools available for free, to help you to create diagrams to show us.

As an example, you can look at the work of Void.

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 67#p174167

Here is an example from RobertDyck:

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 68#p174168

Here is a "how to" article:

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 72#p168972

(th)

jfenciso · 2020-12-02 10:24:07

tahanson43206 wrote:

For jfenciso re #5
Thanks for continuing to contribute to the forum!
Your suggestion of prairie grass is interesting. When you said the grass would not need LED lighting, I was intrigued. Can you describe how you would provide light to the grass in various locations on Mars? In my post, I was thinking about providing the scent and feel of fresh grass inside a Mars habitat, far under ground. Your vision may have a different location in mind?
Since you were here most recently, the forum members have made some progress in delivering visual content for display. The images you may wish to show us can be stored on a web site called imgur.com. There is no charge. The web site provides a way for you to select a bit of bulletin board code that you then paste into the forum post.
There are numerous online and offline tools available for free, to help you to create diagrams to show us.
As an example, you can look at the work of Void.
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 67#p174167
Here is an example from RobertDyck:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 68#p174168
Here is a "how to" article:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 72#p168972
(th)

I don't have any idea which places on Mars to be planted. If you have a research paper about the light properties of Mars measured in the photometric and quantum metric unit, it is much better. That paper could help us to understand which place in prairie grassland in the US which has a slightly similar light from Mars and serves as basis for selecting a prairie grass species. Sorry, I don't have any idea about prairie grassland in the US. That's what I assume for.

However, I am planning to study a neglected/underutilized crop. I can't tell the details of the crop because I am currently crafting the literature review for the research project proposal, once I will go back to my university where I previously worked for. I will include the measurement of soil organic matter also while amending a plant growth-promoting rhizobacteria (PGPR).

By the way, I am not living in U.S.. I am living in the Philippines.

kbd512 · 2020-12-02 11:44:40

jfenciso,

I think you'd have to look at islands near to or within the arctic circle to find flora that grow under similar insolation levels as those that will be present in the equatorial region on Mars during that planet's summer.

RobertDyck · 2020-12-02 12:00:05

What kind of information do you want? Light levels on Mars are not the same as Earth. Let's start by calculating light intensity from the Sun based on planetary distance. Earth's aphelion is 152,100,000 km, perihelion 147,095,000 km, semi-major axis 149,598,023 km. Mars semi-major axis is 227,939,200 km. Light intensity is inverse square of distance so (Earth semi-major axis)² / (Mars semi-major axis)² = 0.4307384778, rounding that's 43%. But that doesn't take into account for how much light is blocked by Earth's atmosphere. The ozone layer blocks all UV-C and most UV-B. Earth's atmosphere blocks more light; there's absorption by moisture, oxygen, and CO2. Note CO2 absorbs very little sunlight compared to water or oxygen. Light on the surface of Mars is 53% as intense as on Earth, comparing to a cloudless day with low humidity, and same latitude.

From Wikipedia (click image for Wikipedia page on Sunlight, where this image is hosted)...

Want a graph from a more prestigious source? Here's a graph from NASA. (click image for NASA webpage)

Why do plants use visible light, and why do human eyes use what we call "visible light"?

Here's a better graph, although units are photons per micrometre rather than watts. For agricultural use it may require some conversion. Click image for the paper...

SpaceNut · 2020-12-02 18:30:27

Do I recall that c4 plants need warmer as well as higher lighting plus more water to get the converting to work.

SpaceNut · 2020-12-15 23:18:57

Grass or weeds the tools to be used on mars if we are not using hand tools will be robotic.
not endorsing this just giving it for reference.

before and after image on the page which showed how in 3 weeks that the tool had worked in the garden to remove the weeds....

Mars_B4_Moon · 2021-06-11 15:13:28

Arabidopsis thaliana, the thale cress, mouse-ear cress or arabidopsis, is a small flowering plant native to Eurasia and Africa. A. thaliana is considered a weed; it is found along the shoulders of roads and in disturbed land.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabidopsis_thaliana
'plants would support the silkworms with oxygen, and the silkworms would in turn provide the plants with necessary carbon dioxide and nutrients through their waste'

Life on Mars: creating a Martian food system
https://www.newfoodmagazine.com/article … od-system/
LUNAR OUTPOST
https://naples.floridaweekly.com/articl … r-outpost/
NEARLY 50 YEARS AFTER astronauts last set foot on the moon, NASA is once again leading the human race in its first tottering steps toward the stars. This time, scientists and astronauts are tasked with establishing a permanent off-Earth colony on the moon’s south pole — a way station to Mars and worlds beyond.

China’s Lander Successfully Grew Some Cotton Plants on the Moon. Fruit Flies and Potatoes Didn’t Fare So Well
https://www.technology.org/2019/10/03/c … e-so-well/
When China’s Chang’e-4 spacecraft landed on the lunar far side on January 3rd 2019, it made history. It was the first spacecraft to visit that part of the Moon, and among its payload was a 2.6 kg (5.7 lb) mini-biosphere called the Lunar Micro Ecosystem (LME).

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-07-30 07:35:54

NASA will soon have its own Lunar Greenhouse or Asteroid Biodome better than a Chang’e-4 experiment?

Astronauts might be able to use asteroid soil to grow crops
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/ast … food-space

SpaceNut · 2022-07-30 19:19:24

Most anything will grow in dirt from anywhere once its fine and not hard for roots to grab water and chemicals from for growth.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-09-02 15:50:15

Biodome for people on Mars will be a Tundra Biosphere?

Determining why the Arctic is turning ever greener
https://phys.org/news/2022-08-arctic-greener.html

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-09-02 15:56:48)

SpaceNut · 2022-09-02 16:24:34

Spitsbergen, an archipelago lying at about 78 degrees north latitude, where the thermometer climbs to an average of 9 degree Celsius.
Between 1984 and 2012, 30% of the tundra in North America became greener, a NASA study has shown. But why some areas of tundra green up more strongly and more quickly than others is probably related to local soil fertility and microclimate.

So plenty of sunshine, water and warm sounds to me like they are going to do this....

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-02 12:39:20

For SpaceNut .... when you started this topic in 2020, I ** think ** you had grass that grows in soil in mind, and indeed the topic seems to have progressed under that impression.

However, Void has recently reminded us (assuming the subject had come up previously in a 20+ year old forum) of "sea" grass.

Void has posted recently in one of his "possibilities" topics.

This topic appears to be focused upon more practical applications of Void's ideas, so I'm hoping you will welcome sea grass to your topic.

I had asked Void about the conditions on Mars that would be favorable for growing sea grass, and if he had any ideas for preventing evaporation of any water on the surface. Void's reply is available for review in another topic. http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 59#p204659

Here, I am hoping members will want to nail down the exact specifications for a surface pond where sea grass might be grown at Mars atmospheric pressure, or just slightly above.

NASA has done a lot of research on Mars (of course) and I have captured a tiny bit of all that work for this topic:

https://science.nasa.gov/science-news/s … st29jun_1m

Global Surveyor topography data. A simple version of the model is the basis for daily martian weather forecasts at the Ames Mars Today web site.
"I used the model to look for regions that meet the minimum requirements for liquid water -- above the triple point and below the boiling point," explained Haberle. "According to the model, the highest surface pressure, 12.4 millibars, occurs at the bottom of the Hellas Basin (a low-lying area created by an ancient asteroid strike). The problem is that the boiling temperature there is only +10 °C. It can't get very hot or the water will boil away."
Evaporation of water in contact with Mars' dry atmosphere is also a problem, says Haberle. "Liquid water can be stable against freezing and stable against boiling, but unstable with respect to evaporation. The situation is analogous to Earth's oceans. Liquid water on the surface does not freeze ... or boil, yet it can evaporate if the atmosphere is not saturated with water vapor. [more information]
"There are 5 five distinct regions where we might sometimes find surface water: in the Amazonis, Chryse and Elysium Planitia, in the Hellas Basin and the Argyre Basin. Together they comprise about 30% of the planet's surface. That's not to say that liquid water really does exist in those places, just that it could."

What I take from the quote above is that a pond might be located in a variety of locations on Mars, where Mars atmospheric pressure is just above the boiling point of water. The water must be kept at a temperature between 0 degrees and 10 degrees Celsius (if I've interpreted the quote correctly).

(Between 32 degrees and 50 degrees Fahrenheit per Google).

The protection for the pond could be a light weight plastic dome held in place by a slight positive pressure of ordinary Mars atmosphere.

The mixture of atoms in the water needs to match Earth oceans where sea grass grows easily.

In his post, Void mentioned perchlorates ... I see no good reason for these to be present in the pond water. The most common salt in Earth sea water is sodium chloride. Thanks to SpaceNut for catching an error in this paragraph.

A small (Earth equivalent) presence of salt would seem appropriate.

I remain interested in any suggestions members may have for planing the mixture of atom types to be present in a sea grass pond on Mars.

If the pond is well planned and well executed, it should be possible to lay sea grass in the water with reasonable expectation of success, despite the reduced light level present on Mars.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2023-01-02 12:56:01

chloride is what is within the mars soils and since water would be processed from that you end up with a similar type of sea water to have those that will thrice contained in such a biome.
The other topics have had a variety of these talked about by a contained water body all over the place.
Until you are extracting and building large areas for these is more of that vapor ware we are talking about in disconnected fashion.

Salt ponds (solar)

What Biome's are needed on Mars

of course, there is the ice structure and pond coverings of ice ect....

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-02 13:17:00

For SpaceNut ... re #18 Thanks for catching the error in my post.

The proposal here is to set up a pond of sea water at a suitable location on Mars. I don't see a need to elevate it to the term "biome".

That is something very different. This is a simple sea water equivalent pond to grow sea grass on Mars.

If I have interpreted the NASA research paper correctly, such a pond can be operated at a number of locations on Mars without pumping the pressure inside the enclosure to elevated levels. I ** think ** all that is needed is enough pressure to keep a plastic dome inflated.

The temperature of the pond water needs to be kept between 0 degrees and 10 degrees Celsius.

There should be NO need to worry about ice .... I appears that Void is discussing ice at great length in the topics he has created.

This topic is NOT about ice .... it is ** your ** topic. Please confirm this topic is NOT about ice.

This topic ** is ** about grass, and specifically about GREEN grass.

Sea grass is green (to the best of my knowledge and subject to correction).

It is time for this forum to move beyond endless words to Real Universe plans that can be realized on Mars in a few years.

A salt water ocean-equivalent sea grass habitat ** should ** be achievable.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2023-01-02 14:44:31

Biomes take into account what item is required for life to exist in a specific eco system. Such as fresh water will not have saltwater fish ect...
Deserts will not have rain forest trees ect rain forests will not have cactus.

Calliban · 2023-01-02 15:52:21

Void has covered most of this I think.

A plastic tent is needed above the pond to prevent the ice from subliming. But it need not be pressurised because the atmospheric pressure on Mars is above the partial pressure of ice at 0°C. It is there to prevent evaporation. It could in fact be a layer of polythene laid over the top of the ice. You would need to clean dust off of it occasionally. Maybe a simple robotic vacuum cleaner can do that. The suction achievable on Mars is very weak. But the dust grains are typically tiny.

If you are happy to keep the pond at say 1°C, then a layer of ice is sufficient to keep the water underneath liquid. The water underneath the ice can be slightly warmer than the ice itself, because of the convective boundary layer that will form between the water and solid ice. Heat must cross this layer by conduction. This allows for a temperature gradient between the ice and the bulk water. Keeping the water as cold as possible allows for higher dissolved oxygen concentrations. The pressure in this pond is essentially the weight of the ice layer above. To maintain good transparency, it cannot be too thick. But the lower the pressure is, the lower the dissolved O2 concentration. It all depends on what your plant can tolerate.

The water can be warmed up beyond 1°C, by placing a layer of transparent aerogel between the ice and the water. The problem here is that algae and dirt will need to be cleaned off of the underside of the insulation layer to maintain transparency. Anyone that has owned a fish tank knows how quickly the glass gets greened up with algae. You woukd need a robot to do that. It isn't neccesary in a pure ice cover, because daily temperature fluctuations will cause the ice layer to fluctuate in thickness. Anything stuck to the underside of the ice won't stay there for too long.

Another option would be to heat the pond to say, 10°C and provide a lightly pressurised polytunnel above it, filled with oxygen. The vapour pressure of water at 10°C is about 12mbar. This means a pressure difference of 4-6mbar between the inside and outside of the tent. That is structurally easy. Even polythene without reinforcement can stand up to that.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vapour_ … e_of_water

The pond will develop a natural temperature gradient. Colder and higher pressure water at the bottom will be more oxygenated than the warmer low pressure water at the top. We would need some means of actively oxygenating the water at the bottom, much like in a fish tank. Colder oxygenated water shoukd remain trapped under the warmer layers above it, if the waters are still enough to prevent mixing.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-01-02 16:12:04)

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-10 19:37:47

This is for Void .... the forum Archive contains numerous posts in which you provide detail about sea grass...

This post is about a chef who discovered that the seeds of sea grass are packed with nutrition ...

You may have already posted this, and if so, please excuse duplication ...

https://www.theguardian.com/environment … ate-crisis

EnvironmentClimate crisisWildlifeEnergyPollutionGreen light
Seascape: the state of our oceans
Plants
The rice of the sea: how a tiny grain could change the way humanity eats
Ángel León made his name serving innovative seafood. But then he discovered something in the seagrass that could transform our understanding of the sea itself – as a vast garden
Chef Ángel León holds a strand of Zostera marina, or eelgrass
Chef Ángel León found eelgrass seeds have 50% more protein than rice – and the plant stores carbon far faster than a rainforest. Photograph: Álvaro Fernández Prieto/Aponiente
Seascape: the state of our oceans is supported by
theguardian.org
About this content
Ashifa Kassam in Madrid
@ashifa_k
Fri 9 Apr 2021 01.00 EDT
Growing up in southern Spain, Ángel León paid little attention to the meadows of seagrass that fringed the turquoise waters near his home, their slender blades grazing him as he swam in the Bay of Cádiz.
It was only decades later – as he was fast becoming known as one of the country’s most innovative chefs – that he noticed something he had missed in previous encounters with Zostera marina: a clutch of tiny green grains clinging to the base of the eelgrass.
His culinary instincts, honed over years in the kitchen of his restaurant Aponiente, kicked in. Could this marine grain be edible?
Operations At The Canadian Kelp Resources Ltd. Seaweed Farm<br>Canadian Kelp Resources Ltd. workers harvest kelp in the Barkley Sound, British Columbia, Canada, on Monday, May 6, 2019. As of 2014, the global seaweed harvest had an estimated value of US$6.4 billion a year, and commercial production had more than doubled over the previous decade, BCBusiness reports. Photographer: James MacDonald/Bloomberg
Meet the 'star ingredient' changing fortunes in Alaska's waters: seaweed
Lab tests hinted at its tremendous potential: gluten-free, high in omega-6 and -9 fatty acids, and contains 50% more protein than rice per grain, according to Aponiente’s research. And all of it growing without freshwater or fertiliser.
The find has set the chef, whose restaurant won its third Michelin star in 2017, on a mission to recast the common eelgrass as a potential superfood, albeit one whose singular lifecycle could have far-reaching consequences. “In a world that is three-quarters water, it could fundamentally transform how we see oceans,” says León. “This could be the beginning of a new concept of understanding the sea as a garden.”
It’s a sweeping statement that would raise eyebrows from anyone else. But León, known across Spain as el Chef del Mar (the chef of the sea), has long pushed the boundaries of seafood, fashioning chorizos out of discarded fish parts and serving sea-grown versions of tomatoes and pears at his restaurant near the Bay of Cádiz.
Minuscule grains nestled in a strand of eelgrass.
The tiny grains within the eelgrass. The plant is capable of capturing carbon 35 times faster than tropical rainforests. Photograph: Álvaro Fernández Prieto/Aponiente
“When I started Aponiente 12 years ago, my goal was to open a restaurant that served everything that has no value in the sea,” he says. “The first years were awful because nobody understood why I was serving customers produce that nobody wanted.”
Still, he pushed forward with his “cuisine of the unknown seas”. His efforts to bring little-known marine species to the fore were recognised in 2010 with his first Michelin star. By the time the restaurant earned its third star, León had become a fixture on Spain’s gastronomy scene: a trailblazing chef determined to redefine how we treat the sea.
What León and his team refer to as “marine grain” expands on this, in one of his most ambitious projects to date. After stumbling across the grain in 2017, León began looking for any mention of Zostera marina being used as food. He finally found an article from 1973 in the journal Science on how it was an important part of the diet of the Seri, an Indigenous people living on the Gulf of California in Sonora, Mexico, and the only known case of a grain from the sea being used as a human food source.
Next came the question of whether the perennial plant could be cultivated. In the Bay of Cádiz, the once-abundant plant had been reduced to an area of just four sq metres, echoing a decline seen around the world as seagrass meadows reel from increased human activity along coastlines and steadily rising water temperatures.
Working with a team at the University of Cádiz and researchers from the regional government, a pilot project was launched to adapt three small areas across a third of a hectare (0.75 acres) of salt marshes into what León calls a “marine garden”.
It was not until 18 months later – after the plants had produced grains – that León steeled himself for the ultimate test, said Juan Martín, Aponiente’s environmental manager.
a hand holds strands of eelgrass with the sea in the background
Salt marshes near Cádiz were used to create a ‘marine garden’ where the eelgrass seeds could be sown. Photograph: Álvaro Fernández Prieto/Aponiente
“Ángel came to me, his tone very serious, and said: ‘Juan, I would like to have some grains because I have no idea how it tastes. Imagine if it doesn’t taste good,’” says Martín. “It’s incredible. He threw himself into it blindly, invested his own money, and he had never even tried this marine grain.”
León put the grain through a battery of recipes, grinding it to make flour for bread and pasta and steeping it in flavours to mimic Spain’s classic rice dishes.
“It’s interesting. When you eat it with the husk, similar to brown rice, it has a hint of the sea at the end,” says León. “But without the husk, you don’t taste the sea.” He found that the grain absorbed flavour well, taking two minutes longer to cook than rice and softening if overcooked.
In the marine garden, León and his team were watching as the plant lived up to its reputation as an architect of ecosystems: transforming the abandoned salt marsh into a flourishing habitat teeming with life, from seahorses to scallops.
The plant’s impact could stretch much further. Capable of capturing carbon 35 times faster than tropical rainforests and described by the WWF as an “incredible tool” in fighting the climate crisis, seagrass absorbs 10% of the ocean’s carbon annually despite covering just 0.2% of the seabed.
News of what León and his team were up to soon began making waves around the world. “When I first heard of it, I was going ‘Wow, this is very interesting,’” says Robert Orth, a professor at the Virginia Institute of Marine Science, who has spent more than six decades studying seagrass. “I don’t know of anyone that has attempted to do what this chef has done.”
We’ve opened a window. It's a new way to feed ourselves
According to Orth, seagrass has been used as insulation for houses, roofing material and even for packing seafood, but never cultivated as food. It is an initiative riddled with challenges. Wild seagrass meadows have been dying off at an alarming rate in recent decades, while few researchers have managed to successfully transplant and grow seagrass, he says.
In southern Spain, however, the team’s first marine garden suggests potential average harvests could be about 3.5 tonnes a hectare. While the yield is about a third of what one could achieve with rice, León points to the potential for low-cost and environmentally friendly cultivation. “If nature gifts you with 3,500kg without doing anything – no antibiotics, no fertiliser, just seawater and movement – then we have a project that suggests one can cultivate marine grain.”
a pile of marine grain
A pilot project was successful in cultivating seagrass and obtaining grains that Ángel León then tried in different recipes. Photograph: www.MAPDIGITAL.es
The push is now on to scale up the project, adapting as much as five hectares of salt marshes into areas for cultivating eelgrass. Every success is carefully tracked, in hopes of better understanding the conditions – from water temperature to salinity – that the plant needs to thrive.
While it is likely to be years before the grain becomes a staple at Aponiente, León’s voice rises with excitement as he considers the transformative possibility of Zostera marina’s minuscule, long-overlooked grain – and its reliance on only seawater for irrigation. “In the end, it’s like everything,” he says. “If you respect the areas in the sea where this grain is being grown, it would ensure humans take care of it. It means humans would defend it.”
He and his team envision a global reach for their project, paving the way for people to harness the plant’s potential to boost aquatic ecosystems, feed populations and fight the climate crisis. “We’ve opened a window,” says León. “I believe it’s a new way to feed ourselves.”
The year is 2033. Elon Musk is no longer one of the richest people in the world, having haemorrhaged away his fortune trying to make Twitter profitable. Which, alas, hasn’t worked out too well: only 420 people are left on the platform. Everyone else was banned for not laughing at Musk’s increasingly desperate jokes.
In other news, Pete Davidson is now dating Martha Stewart. Donald Trump is still threatening to run for president. And British tabloids are still churning out 100 articles a day about whether Meghan Markle eating lunch is an outrageous snub to the royal family.
Obviously I have no idea what the world is going to look like in a decade. But here’s one prediction I feel very confident making: without a free and fearless press the future will be bleak. Without independent journalism, democracy is doomed. Without journalists who hold power to account, the future will be entirely shaped by the whims and wants of the 1%.
A lot of the 1% are not big fans of the Guardian, by the way. Donald Trump once praised a Montana congressman who body-slammed a Guardian reporter. Musk, meanwhile, has described the Guardian, as “the most insufferable newspaper on planet Earth.” I’m not sure there is any greater compliment.
I am proud to write for the Guardian. But ethics can be expensive. Not having a paywall means that the Guardian has to regularly ask our readers to chip in. If you are able, please do consider supporting us. Only with your help can we continue to get on Elon Musk’s nerves.
Arwa Mahdawi
Columnist, Guardian US

(th)

SpaceNut · 2023-01-10 21:19:43

Green grass is a freshwater land plant so do we have salt tolerant land plants comes to mind....not an ocean plant that's in constant contact with seawater.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-02-20 09:33:44

Man has developed but sometimes it goes back to old ways of Superstition, Imperialism, Religions and War. If Mars is to be like Earth then Will Mars worship its grass or bamboo or sea plant in an artificial lake as religious types worshiped? The true grasses include cereals, bamboo and the grasses of lawns (turf) and grassland. Uses for graminoids include food (as grain, sprouted grain, shoots or rhizomes), drink (beer, whisky), pasture for livestock, thatching thatch, paper, fuel, clothing, insulation, construction, sports turf, basket weaving and many others.

Invasive seagrass and native upside-down jellyfish are battling for space
https://www.naturetoday.com/intl/en/nat … ?msg=30398

Is Shinto as old as some of the oldest stone and animal and tree religion, they prayer to spirits of Paleolithic religion. Theer was worship of bear bones, Skull cults, people wore feathers or wore deer skin and antlers, some blew air through a bone and made a musical set of tones or notes, perhaps they developed a simple five note scale turned bone and wood and skin into musical instruments, some wise man or woman might have turned grass and flower into a medical cure, Shamanism is another popular explanation, grass and flowers became paint or pigment use, Grasses are monocotyledon herbaceous plants.

Religion and Pagan customs, Bamboo breaks in direction of good fortune in 1,000-yr-old river ritual, Japanese men climbed a bamboo pole erected in a river?

Men clash in fierce bamboo pole battles in northern Japan town ritual
https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20 … na/004000c

Cold Cuts: Home-Grown Arctic Food
https://polarconnection.org/arctic-food/

Many grasses are short, but some grasses can grow very tall. Bamboo is a grass that grows very tall. Plants from the grass family can grow in many places and make grasslands. They can also be found in areas that are very cold or very dry.. Poaceae or Gramineae are the "true" grasses. They are a large family of monocot flowering plants. There are about 12,000 species and 780 genera. They are one of most ecologically and economically important of all plant families. Unlike other plants, grasses grow from the bottom, so when animals eat grass they usually do not destroy the part that grows. This is a part of why the plants are successful. Without grass, soil may wash away into rivers (erosion).

Family Lives in the Arctic Circle by Building Cob House in a Solar Geodesic Dome
https://mymodernmet.com/hjertefolger-ar … cob-house/

Placing the 25-foot-high dome around the five-bedroom, two-bathroom home gave the six-person family protection from strong winds and heavy snow loads, as well as cutting down on heating costs. The geodesic dome, which also covers a garden area, gives the family the necessary greenhouse environment to grow much of their food. Apples, cherries, plums, apricots, kiwis, grapes, cucumbers, tomatoes, herbs, squash, and melons are just some of what they can grow in an area that is without sunlight for three months a year.

Zostera marina is a flowering vascular plant species as one of many kinds of seagrass, with this species known primarily by the English name of eelgrass with seawrack much less used, and refers to the plant after breaking loose from the submerged wetland soil, and drifting free with ocean current and waves to a coast seashore. It is a saline soft-sediment submerged plant native to marine environments on the coastlines of northern latitudes from subtropical to subpolar regions of North America and Eurasia. Domestication of poaceous cereal crops such as maize (corn), wheat, millets, and rice are eaten around the world. The Poaceae are the most economically important plant family in modern times, providing forage, building materials (bamboo, thatch) and fuel (ethanol), as well as food. Sugar comes from sugar cane, which is also a plant in the grass family. People have grown grasses as food for farm animals for about 4,000 years. People use bamboo to build houses, fences, furniture and other things. Grass plants can also be used to power engine fuel, to keep in heat and cover roofs, and to weave baskets. Zostera marina sea grass species grows in the Arctic region and endures several months of ice cover per year. It is the only seagrass known from Iceland. It can be found in bays, lagoons, estuaries, on beaches, and in other coastal habitat.
https://web.archive.org/web/20060713232 … es_low.pdf

15 Unique Plants That Flourish in the Tundra Biome
https://www.treehugger.com/tundra-plants-5193248
From shallow roots to fuzzy stems, these tundra plants have adapted to grow in some pretty extreme conditions.

Antarctica's Ancient Mosses—the Toughest Plants on Earth—are Drying and Dying From Climate Change and Ozone Depletion
https://www.newsweek.com/antarcticas-an … te-1138836

Seagrasses have been in decline in Tampa Bay for three years in a row. Here's why
https://wusfnews.wusf.usf.edu/environme … -heres-why

Grasses are found on every continent, including Antarctica. The Antarctic hair grass, Deschampsia antarctica is one of only two plant species native to the western Antarctic Peninsula.
https://web.archive.org/web/20100206221 … l#Famlarge

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-02-20 10:08:08)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-02-20 10:04:45

Some environmentalist political type might take offense to people starting a farm on Mars but plants are already grown on the Moon.

Green Grass of the Farside of the Moon?

Chinese route map for lunar day 50
https://twitter.com/AJ_FI/status/1610254052629090304

China Lunar Rover images
https://finance.sina.com.cn/tech/roll/2 … 8522.shtml

Chang’e-4 was the first ever mission to successfully grow plants on the Moon inside a Biosphere on a Rover.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-02-20 10:06:00)

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#1 2020-08-01 14:40:44

The green grass of Mars

#2 2020-08-01 15:57:00

Re: The green grass of Mars

#3 2020-08-01 18:54:56

Re: The green grass of Mars

#4 2020-10-24 11:39:53

Re: The green grass of Mars

#5 2020-12-02 05:05:23

Re: The green grass of Mars

#6 2020-12-02 08:35:38

Re: The green grass of Mars

#7 2020-12-02 10:24:07

Re: The green grass of Mars

#8 2020-12-02 11:44:40

Re: The green grass of Mars

#9 2020-12-02 12:00:05

Re: The green grass of Mars

#10 2020-12-02 18:30:27

Re: The green grass of Mars

#11 2020-12-15 23:18:57

Re: The green grass of Mars

#12 2021-06-11 15:13:28

Re: The green grass of Mars

#13 2022-07-30 07:35:54

Re: The green grass of Mars

#14 2022-07-30 19:19:24

Re: The green grass of Mars

#15 2022-09-02 15:50:15

Re: The green grass of Mars

#16 2022-09-02 16:24:34

Re: The green grass of Mars

#17 2023-01-02 12:39:20

Re: The green grass of Mars

#18 2023-01-02 12:56:01

Re: The green grass of Mars

#19 2023-01-02 13:17:00

Re: The green grass of Mars

#20 2023-01-02 14:44:31

Re: The green grass of Mars

#21 2023-01-02 15:52:21

Re: The green grass of Mars

#22 2023-01-10 19:37:47

Re: The green grass of Mars

#23 2023-01-10 21:19:43

Re: The green grass of Mars

#24 2023-02-20 09:33:44

Re: The green grass of Mars

#25 2023-02-20 10:04:45

Re: The green grass of Mars

Board footer