SALT PONDS (Solar)

Void · 2016-12-07 15:16:33

I touched on this in other locations. I think this deserves it's own topic. If the moderator decides to tack it onto something else, that's OK I guess as well.

I have done some looking at saturated salt solutions of water and table salts and think that the characteristics of the fluid are suitable to locations on Mars where there is evidence of significant water resources, such as Utopia Planetia and perhaps Hellas Planetia.

Salt Ponds:
We could modify this situation for other results by adding salt, and so producing a solar salt pond.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_pond
http://www.solar-energy-for-homes.com/solar-ponds.html
xsolar-ponds-01.jpg.pagespeed.ic.wz3SD9y95X.jpg
Quote:

The effect of solar ponds also occurs in natural salt lakes, from which the technology derives. A natural solar pond, where the effect is really noticeable is at the shore of the Red Sea in Egypt, at Solar Lake. Due to the effect of solar heat the lake can get as hot as 140°F.

Brine:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brine

What prompted me to look into this is a wild idea about canals on Mars, where a member warned me that the type and amount of salts required to have a canal on Mars would be extreme, and toxic to life.
The comments were justified, unless the situation can be overcome by some technological tricks, and unless a whole set of methods compatible with the realities of Mars can be put together to build whole structures which can be stable in the present Martian conditions.

In this topic canals of any kind are just simply long ponds.

As for table salt, I see that it will freeze at -20 degC even at its greatest saturation, and I intend to exploit that. I want it to freeze at such a temperature, so we can have hopes that ponds could be held in ponds in the very cold subsurface regolith of the higher latitudes of Mars (Utopia Planetia, Hellas Planetia). In the manner of tundra ponds on Earth.

The levels of saturation for such ponds could easily be made unsatisfactory for life, but I don't care. The primary purpose of the ponds will be to serve as salt ponds (solar), and to retain water. Just possibly the exaggerated buoyancy of a salt solution could indeed allow a vehicle to pass inside the column of water or on it's surface.

Power supply:
It is obvious that if this device can store stratified heat energy, methods to harvest that energy, can be employed, by various technologies. Such systems might help to keep the system from overheating.

Heliostats: Yes, with heliostats, extra solar energy can be added. That along with tapping power from the system would allow a better thermal regulation of the system.

Gardens: Although the solution in the heat pond will likely be toxic for most or all life (Which could be an advantage), methods are available to place sub containers in those waters that would be more hospitable to life.
https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable … rden-italy
41946a6a-2024-4583-b322-fb1b372337a2-620x372.png?w=620&q=20&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&dpr=2&s=5f3855f8aa303c82d1fcd7210645b46b

But I would be more interested in partially pressurized submarine/barges which could be moved about in the "Pond".

Protecting the "Ponds" surface from evaporation: Terraformer helped with this.
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7542
From the article which is quoted in that topic, we get a double ice/plastic dome.

For my tastes, the height of the arch is excessive. And the two domes could be connected on the interiors by tethers. The interior between the two layers of plastic could have less ice, just enough to handle U.V.

An alternate covering would be of a flat pillow(s) of plastic filled with fresh water to freeze, to lie flat on the surface of the pond. This type might have issues with vehicles moving through the water below creating internal wave action, which might stress this covering. Still working on it. Think there are solutions to that.

That's enough for now. I just wanted a topic for salt ponds (solar), and wanted to collect supporting technologies available and proposed.

For a model of how this might work, we have hyper salty lakes in Antarctica.
"Dry Valley Lakes" which no one here will ever say.

Last edited by Void (2016-12-07 15:57:25)

Antius · 2016-12-07 16:47:46

A good idea for a domestic Mars energy source that can be built without a lot of high tech. So long as you have abundant water.

I would suggest that such a device can be simpler on Mars than on Earth. On Earth, salt ponds work by stratifying, because ambient temperatures are relatively high and you need to get the water hot to generate power. It is cheaper to use a pond than a manufactured panel. Evaporation cools the surface very effectively and the higher density of brine allows a thermal inversion to form.

On Mars, day-night temperature variations are huge. And your water has a very high latent heat of melting, meaning it can store a lot of energy without changing its temperature very much. If your water contains chlorate, it will be toxic as hell. But freezing point could be depressed to -40C or lower. At night, your water will be at least 50C warmer than the temperature of the sky. During day, a black body may reach temperatures of 0C or warmer, depending on latitude. Your water is therefore an energy store that can function as either a hot source or cold source for a reversible heat engine.

A black polymer float will cover the surface of the water. It will function as a radiator at night and a solar panel in day time. It will also provide the pressure that prevents evaporation. The float will consist of 3 layers. The top and bottom layers will be filled with compressed CO2. The middle layer will be insulation. The gases will be blown through heat exchangers for the heat engine, which will probably be CO2 based.

Last edited by Antius (2016-12-07 17:07:46)

Antius · 2016-12-07 17:21:35

Actually, the float at the top would only need two layers, as water at the bottom of the pond would always remain liquid and the ice would grow on top. In fact, the ice itself may provide the insulation needed between the two layers, whilst keeping the brine under pressure. So basically, you run a hose pipe over the top of the ice and put a sheet of black polythene over the hose. During the day, the ice thickness shrinks as the water absorbs heat. At night, it would grow.

The thermal conductivity of ice is about 2W/mK. So for a 40C temperature difference between the two sides, the ice would need to be at least 1m thick to be an effective insulator.

Last edited by Antius (2016-12-07 17:30:41)

Void · 2016-12-07 18:45:50

Well, I like that you are designing your own machines around the basic ideas. I think there will be a large number of variations.

I will give one I suggest.

To make it simple, just a tent over a toroid canal covered filled with very salty water.

The tent will not block U.V. but let it through.

The ideal temperature for the surface liquid being perhaps as low as -17 degC. That will be hard to attain, if the bottom layer is saturated with salt, and the upper layers have to be less salty.

So, it is a toroid canal of very salty water, covered by a single layered tent of plastic, or a glass enclosure might be possible alternately. Neither would be designed to block U.V.

This version is not designed to support life, but perhaps later I will attempt to graft some type of a life supporting mechanism into it.

By the U.V. entering through the tent and passing into the waters unopposed, the best spectrum of the light energy is delivered along with the visible light to impinge on the bottom of the pond, or any suspended particles in the waters.

The reason for a toroid canal is that water can gently circulate in a rotation of laminar character.

A power plant will be placed as a blockage in one spot. Upper layer cold water will be passed through the engine, and of course lower layer hot water passed through the engine. This intended to generate power. So, you could size the ring to be the correct capacity for the size of the generator.

If the tent were not pressurized to the ambient atmosphere, then you might not want to get the discharge temperature of the upper water much higher than perhaps -2 degC?

I think you have seen and can see that this has some strengths as compared to solar panels. Solar panels require a network of electrical conductors to associate them, and to channel the power to the point of use. Here, we could have a generator at one spot in the ring, which would likely be very close physically to the using items, the load(s).

A possible problem might be the condensation of ice on the interior of the tent at night, but I suspect that the hypersaline fluids will quickly absorb the moisture during the day, when the sunlight causes the frost to sublimate from the tent. It is a problem to anticipate/work on.

I anticipate that if the bottom layer is at say 20 degC and the top layer is at -17 degC (Somehow), more cold fluid has to pass through the generator, than hot fluid, in order for the discharge cold fluid to not boil. That is unless the toroid tent were significantly pressurized. But I don't see it as a problem. If you passed 2 units of cold water through the cold side of the generator, for each ~1 on the hot side, you could simply shunt the remaining ~1 unit of hot fluid back around without passing it through the generator.

I think these toroidal canals could be just huge, at Utopia Planetia or possibly also Hellas Planetia.
Therefore the size of the power plants could be huge. If laminar flow were possible to maintain, then mixing of the cold upper layer and hot lower layer could be minimized.

I do not absolutely exclude methods to be added to support the growth of green life, but it will definitely complicate the use of the brine ring as a power supply. For now, I just want the power supply.

I make the note here also that with a sufficiently large ring, this power plant could run day and night, and possibly part way into a dust storm.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2016-12-07 19:16:45)

SpaceNut · 2016-12-07 23:53:30

I sort of like the image you posted

As it uses the water as shielding for the colonist that are working inside.

Void · 2016-12-08 00:18:36

Per the associated article, it is ice that protects from U.V. and apparently radiation. The surfaces between the two domes are coated with ice printed with a 3D printing process apparently. I will give you the original link again, since you seem to be interested. It would work at high latitudes on Mars, it is supposed.

Here it is, I consider it a good read.
http://cloudsao.com/MARS-ICE-HOUSE
Quote:

Mars Ice House redefines this typology by innovating a translucent fin shaped double shell structure contained within a transparent ETFE film. The form is driven by a humanist approach with crew comfort and well-being as key design factors.

This illustrates what it would be like to be in between the two domes where you would need a breathing mask and where the seen surfaces are a 3D printed ice coating:

Quote:

Why ice? Water ice is an effective radiation shield, diminishing both ultra-violet solar and galactic gamma rays to safe levels with only a 5cm thick shell. Ice is translucent allowing natural daylight to stream into the dwelling connecting inhabitants to circadian cycles necessary for maintaining healthy bio-rhythms. The translucency gradient of the ice shells can be modulated to achieve transparent windows allowing for views of the Martian landscape beyond, which has been proven to improve crew morale and psychological well being. Water ice is abundant in the northern latitudes and easily extracted as it's covered by only 30cm of loose regolith.

However for a looped or circular power canal filled with brine, I would not bother with the ice unless there was a life form you intended to protect with it.

Last edited by Void (2016-12-08 00:24:59)

Antius · 2016-12-08 06:05:10

Interesting ideas. I think the problem you will face is freezing of the brine. On Earth, the heavy brine sits at the bottom of the pond and light brackish is at the top. You build up a thermal inversion because brine has higher density and therefore counteracts convective forces. On Mars, your top layer would need to be very salty simply to prevent it from freezing. And it is certain to freeze at night. You would use a lot of morning solar heat, simply melting the ice that froze during the night. To reduce the amount of freezing, the upper layer would need to be saltier. But that immediately removes the difference in density and undermines your ability to build a thermal inversion.

A slight variation on your idea would be to use non-transparent material for your tent and allow it to function as a solar collector. Water could be thermo-syphoned between two layers of polymer sheeting, which would work very effectively if the water is boiling at low pressure. The Martian atmosphere is so thin that it would provide virtually no convective cooling to the polymer sheet, so you don't need any glass. The water underneath would provide a cold source, which is recharged every night.

If your hot source is at 0C and your cold source is say, -40C, then Carnot efficient of a vapour cycle would be 14.7%. Realistic efficiency is about 2/3rds Carnot, so just shy of 10%. Not bad for something that should be cheap to build. Aside from the heat engine itself, we are talking about a trench, a few sheet of polythene and hose pipe. You might not even need a pump. If you can use the sheets as a heater during the day and radiator at night, use supersaturated brine as coolant and simply treat the pond as a thermal store, you can run your power plant night and day. The 'thermal difference engine'.

Last edited by Antius (2016-12-08 06:16:05)

Void · 2016-12-08 08:54:51

Again, I feel that your machine designs can be kept as part of this topic as they do the basic processes, but they do deviate. So, lets say they are members of a family along with the direct solar ponds that so far I have promoted.

Your input has been useful in defining problems, and asking indirectly important questions.

I of course will continue to promote a transparent tent, because it offers much. I will explain.

Don Juan Pond:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Juan_Pond
Quote:

On that initial investigation, the temperature was −30 °C (−22 °F) and the water remained in a liquid state.

http://www.amusingplanet.com/2014/09/do … er-on.html
Quote:

Don Juan Pond is a small, ankle-deep lake located in the McMurdo Dry Valleys of Antarctica, nestled in Wright Valley between the Asgard Mountain Range and the Olympus Mountain Range. With a salinity level of over 40%, it is the saltiest known body of water on earth. The pond is 18 times saltier than the ocean, or twice as salty as the Dead Sea. Even though it’s situated in one of the coldest region in Antarctica, it’s so salty that it never freezes even in temperatures as low as minus 40 degrees Celsius.

A description of the temperature range of Mars:
http://www.space.com/16907-what-is-the- … -mars.html
Quote:

Mars's atmosphere is about 100 times thinner than Earth's. Without a "thermal blanket," Mars can't retain any heat energy. On average, the temperature on Mars is about minus 80 degrees F (minus 60 degrees C). In winter, near the poles temperatures can get down to minus 195 degrees F (minus 125 degrees C). A summer day on Mars may get up to 70 degrees F (20 degrees C) near the equator, but at night the temperature can plummet to about minus 100 degrees F (minus 73 C). Frost forms on the rocks at night, but as dawn approaches and the air gets warmer, the frost turns to vapor, and there is 100 percent humidity until it evaporates.

At Utopia Planetia and Hellas Planetia, we will have a degree of "Midnight sun" effect at different times in the year. Therefore suggesting that any inhabitants will want the utilize Hybernation and Migration methods if they are available to them. (I don't indicate actual human hibernation, but a yearly cycle of low activity on the surface during the winter).

So, with your prompting, and further inquiry, I have determined that it is likely that for each location during the summer half of the year, keeping an ice layer off will be likely mostly possible.
For the winter season, the use of an ice layer should be promoted as it is insulating.

This leaves open the question of what happens to the light spectrum during summer and during the winter as it is likely that different methods to suit different purposes can be employed.

I also remind you that I again mention Mirrors, Heliostats as a method to add energy to the system, beyond what might normally impinge on the solar pond/canal.

So, for the summer season, I suggest a purpose of maximizing energy production, electrical energy, and mechanical energy even possibly, as the power station might skip the electrical step and be so located near a process line that steam of some sort could directly act on a process. Therefore the avoidance of ice would be preferred, as ice will indeed block the passage of U.V. into the deeper water, while it exists.

But have you ever walked on the ice of a lake when it first freezes? It can be as transparent as a window, to visible light. And solar ponds on Earth run primarily on visible light. So, if indeed a temporary layer of ice had to be melted off of the surface of a tented solar pond in the morning, it is not a show stopper. Particularly if your days are say 18 hours long.

Now, as for any frost which might form on the interior of the tent, it seems to me that early in the morning the U.V. will cause it to vaporize, as U.V. apparently is significantly absorbed by water ice.
While this will reduce total photon delivery into the solar pond/canal, an opportunity is provided by it as well.
Quote again a subpart from the last previous post:

Frost forms on the rocks at night, but as dawn approaches and the air gets warmer, the frost turns to vapor, and there is 100 percent humidity until it evaporates.

We can think then that possibly during the morning there will be a temporary pulse of high humidity within the tent, and if we were to devise the means to condense this, we could have fresh water. I suggest compressive condensation be used.

So, we are not going to capture every photon, U.V. or Visible for effective/efficient use. But I will then compare that to solar cells.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_cell_efficiency
Seems to indicate maybe about 20% efficiency. Much higher laboratory numbers are produced, but that may not be technology actually available, at least not yet.

Still the efficiency is not the only determiner. The question is, what is the utility of the device(s) you build, against the economic burden they impose on your settlers?

That is a question that can only be answered in time. The advancement of technological development could change the balance between solar pond/canal vs. other methods.

For instance it is easy to say "Well, lets just do nuclear fission". But in reality beyond a donation from Earth for the initial settlement(s), such an industry has to be developed insitu, as all of you understand. How hard is that relative to a solar pond/canal? I would say that at certain stages of the development of a "Civilization" on Mars, it would be impossible. But not necessarily forever.

Now what to do with a solar pond/canal during the darker half of a Martian year? Give in. Make a point of keeping ice on the surface of the water. Therefore providing a potential protection for photo life. Perhaps you are no longer running air filled greenhouses because the length of the day is too short, and you could use another Oxygen source. Well, this system could possibly fill some of that need.

The dry valley lakes of Antarctica are variable in their natures. However we could likely find one which maintains a ice thickness of 11-13 feet. (Sorry, won't bother with the conversion).
However even with this ice thickness, photosynthesis can be found in the waters of these lakes. It apparently occurs deeper than I had thought it should due to the lack of nutrients in the "surface layers" of water under the ice. For our winter solar pond canal, it fertility could be arranged just under the ice layer. And I would say that the ice layer might not be that thick except for during the winter solstice, when very little light can be collected.

Briny ice allows the biosphere to extend upwards and into the ice layer in brine channels. So up to the point where the ice thickness is insufficient to provide U.V. protection, a biosphere could exist.

Last edited by Void (2016-12-08 09:41:06)

Antius · 2016-12-08 09:38:37

Hello Void,
If the ice is sufficiently transparent to allow optical transmission to the salt water beneath, as you suggest, then I think your design makes sense as it is. From what I can remember, the addition of salt to water has some effect on its optical properties. So a layer of pure ice above the brine may have better optical properties than brine itself, I do not know. It is worth investigation.

In terms of suppressing convection within the pond, nothing is more effective than a solid lens of ice. The latent heat of melting of ice is so high, that the water at the bottom of the pond may be warm and it could take many hours for the lens to actually melt. At night, the ice lens will regrow again. You could amplify that effect by putting in place another layer of polythene separating you briny water at the bottom and potentially pure water at the top. That way, your thermal gradient will be even greater, but you use more polythene.

Void · 2016-12-08 09:45:36

The levers available are very large. Salinity can be controlled by layer. One method is the day night freeze cycle. During the night if ice does form, it will squeeze cold brine out off it and that will sink to the bottom and mix with the hot brine. This is useful to maintain the stratification, reducing saltiness in the upper layers, and adding to saltiness in the lower layers.

If we have a single power station in the "Pond Loop", and indeed can circulate the brine layers sideways to input power to the power station, but limit unwanted mixing using laminar flow, still if we want to we can then mix the layers at the power station to suit our desires.

As for the transparency of ice, I recall standing on a few inches of ice, and seeing a frog swim under me, it was like looking through aquarium glass. Of course ice can be clouded by many factors, so you would want optimum ice. How much latitude to maintain that? Well it is not likely to snow on the ice so that helps. Air bubbles can also make the ice translucent rather than transparent, but we are possibly talking about a rather low pressure system. I don't know how much air bubbles can come out of the solution during the freezing process.

Cracks in the ice can alter the path of photons as well, but it is evident that even in lakes with 11-13 foot thick ice photo synthesis can occur, and also the waters deeper can be as warm as possibly 22 degC. (On Earth, without U.V. and without Heliostats.

I think that a solar pond/loop system(s) for both Utopia Planetia and Hellas Planetia, could support settlements that use both Hibernation and Migration methods.

In the winter, the solar pond/loop would be generating some Oxygen and heat for a skeleton crew who might winter over. But the majority of the crew might migrate.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2016-12-08 09:53:22)

Void · 2016-12-08 12:17:13

I think this can be sweetened quite a bit by looking into some other options.
First of all here is another solar pond article for the possibility that bored people might like a read: http://www.teriin.org/technology/salt-gradient

Electricity from salt gradients: (Here is just one example, there are other methods.)
http://phys.org/news/2016-07-electricit … brane.html
Should you make ice on the surface of a brine pond at night you will have a squeeze which will generate a more salty brine which should flow down towards the bottom of the solar pond/canal.
During the day, if you do have an ice covering the U.V. should melt some of the ice, creating a less salty brine which should tend to float near the ice. So the Cold of night creates a saltier brine, and the U.V. of the day releases a less salty brine from the ice every day. So, this recharges the "Battery" every day (Less well if there is a dust storm though I would think).

So, we are using the cold of night for a good purpose, and the U.V. spectrum for a good purpose. What of the visible light. The visible light would then go on to heat up the lower brine layers.

But could we get it to do more for us?

I nominate Elodea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elodea
th?id=A542abd4d621023a0c01989ab9c3412be&w=118&h=149&c=8&rs=1&qlt=90&dpr=1.45&pid=3.1&rm=2
Quote:

Elodea is a genus of 6 species of aquatic plants often called the waterweeds described as a genus in 1803. Elodea is native to North and South America[2] and is also widely used as aquarium vegetation. It lives in freshwater.[3]
The introduction of some species of Elodea into waterways in parts of Europe, Australia, Africa, Asia, and New Zealand has created a significant problem and it is now considered a noxious weed in these areas. An older name for this genus is Anacharis, which serves as a common name in North America.[4]
Elodea canadensis, sometimes called American or Canadian water weed or pond weed, is widely known as the generic water weed. The use of these names causes it to be confused with similar-looking plants, like Brazilian elodea (Egeria densa) or hydrilla (Hydrilla verticillata). American water weed is an attractive aquarium plant and is a good substitute for Brazilian elodea. It can be used for science experiments in classrooms demonstrating how plants use carbon dioxide with the usage of bromothymol blue.
The American water weed lives entirely underwater with the exception of small white flowers which bloom at the surface and are attached to the plant by delicate stalks. It produces winter buds from the stem tips that overwinter on the lake bottom. It also often overwinters as an evergreen plant in mild climates. In the fall, leafy stalks will detach from the parent plant, float away, root, and start new plants. This is the American water weed's most important method of spreading, while seed production plays a relatively minor role.[5]
Silty sediments and water rich in nutrients favor the growth of American water weed in nutrient-rich lakes. However, the plants will grow in a wide range of conditions, from very shallow to deep water, and in many sediment types. It can even continue to grow unrooted, as floating fragments. It is found throughout temperate North America, where it is one of the most common aquatic plants.[5]
American water weed is an important part of lake ecosystems. It provides good habitat for many aquatic invertebrates and cover for young fish and amphibians. Waterfowl, especially ducks, as well as beaver, muskrat and aquatic turtles eat this plant. It is also of economic importance as an attractive and easy to keep aquarium plant, although in the states of Alabama, New Hampshire, New York, South Carolina, and Washington it has been deemed an invasive species and is illegal to sell.[6]

Elodea does not appear to have a food value, but I do believe that it could be digested by Mushrooms, and I think it has plant fiber in it unlike seaweeds. (So, maybe mushroom wood?)

Here is another plant to nominate, but it may be fussier about temperatures, but that is not absolutely an obstacle.
http://www.eattheweeds.com/hydrilla/

Hydrilla can be used to feed livestock and even directly humans, and apparently for whatever reason it happens to be a source of Vitamin B12, which is going to be very important to your Mars settlers.
Quote:

As for powdered hydrilla… in north Florida they raise Hydrilla in an isolated lake, sterilize it with pure water and ozone treatment, low-temperature dry it, powder it and sell it to you. The mild earthy-flavored powder is 13% calcium which some writers call the richest plant source of calcium on the planet. It’s also high in B-12 and iron. Further, Hydrilla has been investigated as possible animal fodder. It has 16 percent more available dry matter for fodder than cattails and no bad chemicals were found in it during the examination for cattle food. In fact in one study when fed Hydrilla cows gave 20% more milk and chickens 14% more eggs, probably related to the calcium content. But what about Hydrilla as food for people?
Hydrilla Nutrition, courtesy of Nawebstore
As you know I developed and use the I.T.E.M approach to wild foods. Identification, Time of Year, Environment. M is for Method of Preparation. Here’s where the Hydrilla information trail breaks down. I’ve never found any reference in English about consumption of Hydrilla prior to the powdered form. In theory there should be no problem with eating Hydrilla (beyond the possible problems associated with any aquatic plant such as environmental pollution and some algae.) No special processing is done to make it an edible powder. The entire plant is dried and only water removed. So why isn’t Hydrilla used as human food like a cooked green? Well… edible does not mean palatable. As Dick Deuerling used to say about wild food: “I only eat the good stuff.”
Hydrilla leaf, photo by 123rf
Here’s one possible reason: The plant is tough and prickly, not as bad as many land plants but noticeably so. In fact one quick and easy way to separate it from two similar looking plants (Elodea and Egeria) is to pull Hydrilla through your hand. Edodea and Egeria will feel smooth. Hydrilla will feel harsh and scratchy. It may simply be that texture kept the plant off the dinner table,

The possibility of getting Mushroom wood from fresh water pond weeds may exist. They likely descend from vascular land plants that adapted to an aquatic environment, so they have some fiber, and perhaps with manipulation some types can have fiber content upgraded.

Mushroom Wood: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7537
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7537

OK so your solar pond might be able to have temperatures of 140 Degrees F. on the bottom, but of course that is way too high. But you could set it to a tropical temperature, and of course it is frost free. As for lighting? It may be desired to use heliostats to increase the amount of light going into the solar pond/canal.
This gives the opportunity to divert light from it's normal path, and point it directly at the plants in the bottom of the solar pond.

There is one other problem to overcome, the toxic nature of the salt concentrations which neither Elodea or
Hydrilla are likely to tolerate at all. You bag them, and make an environment inside the bags that they can tolerate.
41946a6a-2024-4583-b322-fb1b372337a2-620x372.png?w=620&q=20&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&dpr=2&s=5f3855f8aa303c82d1fcd7210645b46b
But unlike Nemo's garden's greenhouse diving bells, you fill them with water, and close them off entirely from the hypersaline environment at the bottom of the pond.

This will greatly reduce the stains on the envelope materials, and greatly reduce the anchoring forces acting on them.

The bags will still need an anchoring process. This could be provided with soil for the pond weeds to anchor themselves in. Since the plants flower in the air, perhaps small bubbles of air could be provided within the bags to satisfy this need. Not sure Elodea needs it, as it spreads from clippings.

How to harvest? Well somehow go in the bag and clip the weeds, or blow air in the bags to make them have neutral buoyancy and move them to a harvesting planting area / Airlock.

I don't mind saying I think this is looking really good. I wonder why the Nemo's gardens people don't just start farming Hydrilla in bags of fresh water anchored to the sea bottom, instead of farming normal vegetables.

So to sum it up agriculture added to the solar pond(s)/Canal(s) could provide Mushrooms as food, Mushroom wood?, Animal feed, and actual direct human food, with Vitamin B12 included.

Not bad!

Done.

Last edited by Void (2016-12-08 13:07:48)

Antius · 2016-12-08 16:51:38

I have not yet considered all the points in your post in detail. But it does appear that provided an abundant supply of water is available and the optical transmittance of ice is sufficient, ice covered ponds are the most practical food producing systems and habitats on early Mars. This is surprising and I do not believe that the topic has even occured to anyone in mainstream circles up to now. If ice is abundant at the colony site, it is much easier to build a pond in a crater than a tensile pressure dome covering the same area. An inflatable polyethylene tent cover would raise pressure to perhaps 20mbar and would prevent dust from blowing onto the top of the ice.

I believe it may be more suitable to your goals to use water with ocean levels of salinity. That way, productive food plants like kelp and even fish could survive within the pond. That water will freeze at -2C. However, as the ice sheet grows thicker, it will insulate the water underneath. The thermal conductivity of ice is about 2W/mK. So, an ice sheet 50cm thick with a surface temperature of -40C and a water temperature of -2C, will be losing heat at a rate of 140W/m2. During the night, the ice thickness would grow by 1.26mm per hour, but would recede again during the day. If the thickness of the ice sheet grew to 2m, the rate of heat loss would drop 4 times. So, even a prolonged dust storm would not likely result in the lake freezing to the bottom. A 10m depth would equate to a pressure of 5.6psi. So people could walk along the bottom of the pond without a spacesuits. They would need an oxygen mask and a wetsuit to reduce heat losses into the water.

You mentioned the use of heliostats. It strikes me that the beauty of the pond idea is its simplicity and potential low cost. If you are going to invest in sun-tracking systems then I would suggest that the ones most likely to pay for themselves are those that raise steam for electricity. Your solar power plant can dump waste heat at 30C into the bottom of the lake whilst providing your habitat within the pond with electricity. Since you are paying for sun tracking systems anyway, it makes sense to use them to the greatest economic effect.

Habitats within the pond can be simple in construction. They need to withstand and counteract buoyant forces, but will not need to be pressurised. Habitats can be constructed from polyethylene sheeting that is weighed down at regular intervals by ballast material. The bottom of the habitat could be open to the water, allowing colonists to enter the pond and even swim to the surface.

More later.

Last edited by Antius (2016-12-08 17:34:02)

Void · 2016-12-08 20:05:38

Very pleased at your response, what you have also provided.
Here is a very simple description of how water ice can be transparent or translucent.

Here it is, somehow lost the first time:
Quote:

Water which has undergone processes that remove dissolved gases will not become cloudy ice. For example: deaeration by boiling water at 100 degree C. The reason ice cubes you buy in the market, hotels, and bars are clear is that the freezing takes place in a flow of water over a cold surface. Then the minerals and air are continuously washed away and pure ice forms clear ice cubes.

But you will largely dearate the water to form the ice by having it at 20 or less mb.
http://www.answers.com/Q/Why_is_Snow_Wh … an_be_both
The Inuit have many words for ice.
Sea ice (Salt ice) is different than fresh water ice, it is more flexible.

Terraformer suggested similar to this as well:
Antius said:

An inflatable polyethylene tent cover would raise pressure to perhaps 20mbar and would prevent dust from blowing onto the top of the ice.

The tent will need to be able to endure U.V. However per RobertDyke this requires a plastic which is in part formulated from Fluorine. PTFE....?

Quote Antius:

The bottom of the habitat could be open to the water, allowing colonists to enter the pond and even swim to the surface.

That then is part of a barometric air lock. You must of course have an EVA suit on if you do swim up, and if you have a counter pressure suit the insulation will be very poor. Very cold brine will be unpleasant, but there are ways around that. For now let imagine that you swam up with an EVA suit, and passed into the tent through a hole in the ice. You are then at 20 mb of pressure. How to go outside onto the surface?
The barometric part of the process took care of 94% of the job, if you came from a habitat with 330 mb pressure. For the last 6%, then an airlock filled with Martian ambient pressurized air, variable from 20mb to 8mb at Utopia Planetia, and perhaps 20mb to 12mb at Hellas Planetia. The pump which is used to cycle the airlock would also be used to pump Martian air into the tent. That air will be processed by the agriculture, to capture Carbon, produce Oxygen, and leave a buildup of N2 and Argon, etc.

I am having a terrible time copying your text, so I will have to approximate what I believe you said.

As for Fish and Kelp. Due to Henry's laws about dissolved gasses in water, with a tent pressure of 20 mb, I do not believe that enough dissolved Oxygen would be in the water for fish. Kelp, maybe, if you can simulate ocean water, but I am dubious that it would be comfortable with the dissolved gas levels.

I would go with the solar heat pond model, and model it near to that of a dry valley lake of Antarctica. In that case the water near the ice although cold, is fresh enough for plankton. The water below being warm typically in those lakes is anoxic, but it would not have to be in our lakes. The trick for fish and possibly kelp would be to make a secondary enclosure underwater, and then you could dissolve much more gasses into it's interior waters, since it is back pressured by a water column above it's roof.

In the model for the salt pond with warm water on the bottom, 20 degC is attainable, especially if Heliostats are used. Your people however need to be weighted down, or they would float up to their death if they did not have pressure suits. And yes a swimming suit for modesty, and a breathing method.
Nice, you are on the bottom of a lake on Mars, and you can pick up a rock with your bare hand and live to talk about it and do it again.

Here is something to think about granted it is very out there, but imagine walking on the bottom of a massively broad solar sea in the bottom of Hellas Planetia, 20 Thousand Leagues under the sea style".

It's a fun dream, admit it!

th?id=OIP.Ma03a46e2eed1e1e36f54ed3400059747o0&w=179&h=160&c=7&qlt=90&o=4&dpr=1.45&pid=1.7

20,000 leagues under the sea on Mars. Could it ever get more Sci Fi?

Last edited by Void (2016-12-08 21:59:21)

Void · 2016-12-09 10:01:00

A new day, so I will add materials specifically about 3D Printing and refabricating the "Ice Window(s)" in a tent covered pond on Mars.
Here is some interesting material about such a printer. They are not dealing with very transparent ice here,
and I presume it is not ice that contains salts. (Salty ice is less brittle, and more flexible than fresh water ice).
http://www.marsicehouse.com/3d-printing-with-ice/

Here is the article I linked in a earlier post #6 in this topic:
http://cloudsao.com/MARS-ICE-HOUSE
Quote: (Including mention of transparency)

Why ice? Water ice is an effective radiation shield, diminishing both ultra-violet solar and galactic gamma rays to safe levels with only a 5cm thick shell. Ice is translucent allowing natural daylight to stream into the dwelling connecting inhabitants to circadian cycles necessary for maintaining healthy bio-rhythms. The translucency gradient of the ice shells can be modulated to achieve transparent windows allowing for views of the Martian landscape beyond, which has been proven to improve crew morale and psychological well being. Water ice is abundant in the northern latitudes and easily extracted as it's covered by only 30cm of loose regolith.

If it is hard to get transparent ice while freezing salty water at 20 mb's as specified by Antius and also Terraformer, then I suggest that the ice might be recycled, degassed, and printed onto the surface of the pond, to provide an optimal window for visible light transparency.

The existing conditions and the passage of time might alter the printed ice, such things as impinging U.V. and materials that might stain either the top or bottom of the ice. The development of air bubbles, in newly formed ice?

Another feature might be to work to degas the pond water itself. It being generally a toxic brine, and with the degassing, it might be possible to provide a favorable result with this where the growth of unwanted organisms in the water is prohibited, and then if any new ice forms on the bottom of the existing ice air bubbles will be minimized, and transparency maximized. This of course would require that the ice layer in general help to isolate the water below from the 20 mb mix above.

The previous paragraph does not prohibit secondary chambers filled with water inside the pond/canal where dissolved gasses are present in the waters interior to the secondary chamber. It also does not prohibit air filled secondary chambers. It just maximizes the chances for transmission of light into the pond/canal waters.

As for this sub quote from the above article:

Why ice? Water ice is an effective radiation shield, diminishing both ultra-violet solar and galactic gamma rays to safe levels with only a 5cm thick shell.

I am not absolutely sure that normal water ice blocks U.V., but it is strongly implied in the statement.

Still if there is some reason to want to further modify the spectrum entering the water, I would think that 3D printed ice windows could have substances added to them to accomplish the desired result.

Last edited by Void (2016-12-09 10:19:47)

Void · 2016-12-09 10:22:16

Antius, you mentioned putting a pond in a crater.

Some craters have a central peak. And of course a raised ring wall. If you partially filled such a crater then you would have a canal like pond/ring of water. You would also have two elevated terrains that were above the canal. The central peak, and the crater rim. These might be good places to place heliostat mirrors, to reduce the required scaffolding to place them in positions to intercept sunlight.

You could also put a berm/dam across one spot in the ring pond/canal, and put a power plant there. The power plant would suck in warm and cold water from one side of the dam, and discharge water on the other side. Laminar flow in the ring would be strongly desired. The flow should be done in such a way that the warm salty water at the bottom mixes minimally with the colder less salty layer above. I think this could be done.

And alternate power scheme instead would use the differential saltiness to generate power as mentioned previously. There are several ways to do that apparently. Here is another one.
https://www.wired.com/2011/04/battery-ocean-saltwater/

As mentioned before, I hope that the night cold would squeeze dense brine out of the ice layer on the pond, and that would fall to the bottom and be warmed up. I also hope that the following day, the U.V. flux, and the infrared coming up from the pond bottom will melt some of the ice which has been partially depleted of salt, adding to "Fresher" water melt water in the upper layer of the pond, and so recharging this "Salt differential" power system/battery.

So, options for power generation exist, both thermal and salt differential.

And for power, the process of radiating heat to the cold universe is used, and we hope the U.V. is used, and ultimately the Visible light is used to grow plants under about 10 feet of water/ice (100 mb level), and the waste heat from that goes out into the bottom layers to warm them up, and therefore the visible light provides the warm salty water side of the power generation scheme.

Not much wasted!

Last edited by Void (2016-12-09 10:37:49)

Void · 2016-12-09 10:40:54

Planters in the pond, secondary enclosures.

RobertDyck has mentioned that plants grown in 100 mb pressure do quite well. This is unsuitable for unprotected humans however.

Further, humans would prefer perhaps at least 250 mb of water column above their highest body parts, but most likely 300 or 330 or more are preferred. Getting light into debths that far down will be hard. Not impossible but hard. If the water is very pure, then perhaps. But alternatives exist.

For instance a secondary chamber could be placed just under the ice, it could be pressurized. It also could be like a diving bell, with a tube allowing a human to enter if from deep below. But of course then we might be discharging waste heat from the secondary chamber into the upper less salty water, which we do not prefer to do.

So, perhaps a compromise. Make the clearest ice windows, and keep the primary waters of the pond clear.
Clearness of the pond water will be partially accomplished by making them toxic to life, and denying the nutrients for life. As mentioned before degassing will help to deny the needed nutrients. With very clear water, the secondary chambers can be placed lower in the water column.

Additionally if the secondary chambers overheat, then that heat can be discharged to the saltier layers below with liquid cooling methods.

However we will prefer to use the KISS method Keep It Simple Stupid.

So, yes there will be compromises to make when using a salt pond/canal to provide multiple aspects of life support.

Last edited by Void (2016-12-09 10:46:33)

Antius · 2016-12-09 13:43:47

I did some scoping calculations earlier. It may be difficult to design an underwater habitat. For one thing, the density of water results in a significant pressure gradient that would result in a higher pressure at the bottom of the habitat. So the upper parts would need to be reinforced against internal pressure. In addition, buoyant forces on the structure apply as much load as internal pressure would on the surface. However, the water does provide all of the radiation shielding that the habitat would need.

One way around the problem would be to weight down the habitat by filling the top sections with dirt and rock that sit on top of an inflatable bag. The top sections of the bag would be under tension due to internal pressure. Reinforcement can be provided using steel cable or polypropylene rope.

It would be handy to be able to post diagrams, as it is difficult to visualize using words alone. But I know of no way of putting diagrams onto this board that have not already been posted somewhere else on line. Is there no way of simply attaching an image to a post?

Last edited by Antius (2016-12-09 14:33:07)

Void · 2016-12-09 20:23:07

I used to have a blog, but my abilities to diagram and draw, sort of might get me the bum's rush out the door.

I think I have some kind of a picture account I could look in my files. But lets let that hang for now.

I agree that human habitats in briny water will be a significant problem. But the good news is that their are nice alternatives in my opinion. So, I feel that habitats for humans in the waters of ice covered ponds, should be for convenience, to do work in those waters, and not the major habitat.

Considering the ice and regolith materials of Utopia Planetia, New Mexico state size (Nice ).
And I hope Hellas Planetia will offer something similar, at least in it's southern half.
Now this:
https://www.theguardian.com/science/200 … ntpagenews
https://www.theguardian.com/science/201 … ptic-world

Not entirely what we are looking for, but they tunneled through permafrost I believe and then perhaps into rock.

So, a major challenge is going to be how to punch a tunnel into our pond from and through permafrost, and how to make that stable so it does not try to re-organize itself into a death trap, or impassability. So, that is a significant problem to solve.

So, I will do a shortcut and indicate that essentially our desire is to build an interface between the pond environment into the permafrost environment and to burrow down to the "Grounding Line" if we were to compare this to a glacier. We want rock/soil under our feet, ultimately and an arched tunnel of ice/regolith above us. If we need supports then we need supports.

Being cave people in permafrost caves does not sound that attractive, even if we can go for a swim/walk in tropical waters in our sometimes sunshiny pond. But this tunnel system can get us to better things.

Alright here is what we might be looking for in Hellas Planetia, and since Utopia Planetia is a depression perhaps we can hope for similar there.
http://phys.org/news/2016-12-evidence-w … -mars.html
I suppose I am looking for the possibility of rock that is easier to carve, sedimentary rocks, in some cases may be, so quote from that link:

"These plains on the northern rim of Hellas are usually interpreted as being volcanic, as we see with similar surfaces on the Moon," said Francesco Salese of IRSPS, Università "Gabriele D'Annunzio", Italy, and lead author on the new paper. "However, our work indicates otherwise. Instead, we found thick, widespread swathes of sedimentary rock."
Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2016-12-evidence-w … s.html#jCp

Actually if we really got lucky we would find a sandstone bluff where it extends above the permafrost deposits of Utopia Planetia, or Hellas Planetia. Then we can dispense with the permafrost interface transition.

That would be gold. Carved caves in the sandstone, your pond or a tributary canal of it, connecting to the sandstone. We could also make Louis's canyon habitats be connected, also carved in the sandstone.

But if pressed into it we can try to work with the permafrost. Perhaps there is sedimentary soft rock below the Utopia Planetia / Hellas Planetia ice/regolith deposits. Well then a permafrost interface tunnel gets us from the pond to that rock and we carve our habitat below the ice. Actually perhaps a bit safer as far as explosive decompression risks run. But we sure want Louis's canyons. Lets try to include them.

If we do work with permafrost tunnels or sandstone tunnels, it is possible we can connect to include into our settlement system this thing we previously reviewed.

We have a lot of good stuff that can be connected. I am rather happy about it.

And if worst comes to worst, and the rock is too hard, perhaps we can tunnel to the "Grounding Line" in the icy permafrost, which is said to be quite deep, and with our feet on dry rock/soil, build a dome of ice/rock, and give it lots of insulation, so that periodically we can heat it. Such enclosures might host apple tree orchards under artificial lights. 6 months of summer, and then 6 months of the coldest winter the trees can endure.

Want to go for a walk in an apple orchard on Mars?

So what if you have to change habitation cave every 4-6 months, you can make lots of them.

I think we might be doing good

Done.

Last edited by Void (2016-12-09 21:00:40)

Void · 2016-12-09 21:12:46

Maybe we could have some "Green Onions" somewhere in this interlinked system.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=gr … ORM=VRDGAR
Now, it seems quite suitable for Mars.

Last edited by Void (2016-12-09 21:13:41)

Void · 2016-12-12 15:59:03

I want to continue on with an extension of part of post #18. It is and isn't off topic. Previously I mentioned a version of this that could be linked to tunnels to "SALT PONDS (Solar).

This one also could be, or it could stand alone. Probably we would want some type of greenhouse/solar pond associated with it.

Quote from #18:

And if worst comes to worst, and the rock is too hard, perhaps we can tunnel to the "Grounding Line" in the icy permafrost, which is said to be quite deep, and with our feet on dry rock/soil, build a dome of ice/rock, and give it lots of insulation, so that periodically we can heat it. Such enclosures might host apple tree orchards under artificial lights. 6 months of summer, and then 6 months of the coldest winter the trees can endure.
Want to go for a walk in an apple orchard on Mars?
So what if you have to change habitation cave every 4-6 months, you can make lots of them.

This is not the most desired method for habitat for those who want to use the sun directly, but the deposit at Utopia Planetia is said to be the size of New Mexico, so this method might yield a lot of habitat. The question is the economy of it.

I will add this for reference/review. This information was originally posted by Louis I believe on another topic.
http://midnightinthedesert.com/mars-ice … -superior/
So here is a quote containing estimate specifications for the deposit:

Scientists examined part of Mars’ Utopia Planitia region, in the mid-northern latitudes, with the orbiter’s ground-penetrating Shallow Radar (SHARAD) instrument. Analyses of data from more than 600 overhead passes with the onboard radar instrument reveal a deposit more extensive in area than the state of New Mexico. The deposit ranges in thickness from about 260 feet (80 meters) to about 560 feet (170 meters), with a composition that’s 50 to 85 percent water ice, mixed with dust or larger rocky particles.

So, one question is if you tunneled to the grounding line at the base of these icy/rocky deposit's and carved out an arched cave, how stable would it be without supports? (Presuming you did not melt it). Also how much pressure could you put in it without a rupture? I am going to guess 1 bar would work typically. Are there any locations where 5.1 bar would hold? That being the triple point of CO2. My understanding is that 5.1 is the triple point of CO2, so just possibly 560 feet of an ice rock mixture could counter pressure 5.1 bars.

I think that 5.1 bars of a N2/O2 mix may not cause Nitrogen narcosis. Not sure it is healthy on a steady basis.
Equivalent to 163.2 feet of water column? Actually I have looked it up, and that environment would be toxic to humans in the longer term for sure. Too bad.

Plan "B" then just pressurize to 1 bar.

So, then you have a cold ice cave with an arched roof of ice and dirt and rock, and a floor of rock and dirt. The objective is to heat the bottom part, and keep the arch of ice and dirt and rock frozen.

OK, long enough, I will suggest the following to accomplish it.
-Tent inside the arch, that connects to the rock and dirt floor, and isolates the chamber into a warmer atmosphere inside of it and a colder atmosphere outside of it.
-To cool the arch of ice and rock nighttime cold.
-To warm the inside of the tent and the rock and dirt floor, perhaps solar heat. Perhaps steam from a solar collector on the surface.

And of course to grow plants inside the tent, a light source needed. That far down it has to be artificial lights most likely, but remotely the possibility of fiber optics comes to mind.

Of course this is perhaps in some ways less desirable than surface installations which use direct sunlight for agriculture, but with a deposit as specified in the quote. You could have habitable area, similar to a fraction of the state of New Mexico, perhaps by using less physical resources. (Domes, Greenhouses). But of course you still have to have surface installations to gather power, hot steam, or cold night temperatures.

I am just putting this out there. I see the limitations and the advantages.

Last edited by Void (2016-12-12 16:24:37)

SpaceNut · 2016-12-12 20:10:55

So we being by landing in capsule or habitat to which we begin to collect insitu materials to make the shell structure around the ship.

I would look at creating the first shell around the ship to make an area that can be used to get the crew out of the cabin and into short sleeves later after a few mor layers are made to contain the water in for sea as well as ocean food sources, another for an shell ozone nitrogen atmopshere for natural plant growth and then follow that with the outer shell before finishing the structure. Of course use the interlocking system to go from 1 zone to the next and a means to bring the vehicles in an out so as to be able to work on what we bring in under more normal conditions to what we would see here on earth.

I would seem that we would want layers of plastics and glass to make up the walls of the structure.

I hope this can be followed....

Void · 2016-12-13 13:18:47

Yes Spacenut, maybe something like that to start and to continue. If it is not continued, what is so much the point of starting?

I am like a lot of the people here, when I connect the dots for what is, I come up wondering how possibly can this Mars dream ever actually happen?

But one has to have faith. I do believe that it is highly likely that if we are vigilant, we will be presented with new opportunities, by the invention of new ways. Our burden of suffering now, is that we are victimized by those who only see us as meat on the hoof. And we know it. But they by their specialization in exploiting the adventurous and the inventive, have made themselves weak. And they are too stupid to understand that.

We have to understand that while we are lifting up the light there are many who consider themselves clever in that they can rape the people trying to rescue the situation.

Indeed some type of efficient/effective delivery of materials from the Earth with humans seems the best way to light off a civilization. And places like Utopia Planetia seem to suggest that there could be a hearth place for a fire to be lit. But never forget that the predators are sure to follow the sent of a free meal. They will have to be fought off and put down for the sake of the human race.

Last edited by Void (2016-12-13 13:27:48)

Void · 2016-12-13 18:57:14

Dead board just now. Just in case people misunderstood my last post, the Mars settlers are going to want to watch that they don't make things too comfy for parasites, who will come there to try to replace them genetically. Nature is kind if it sculpts the human race into human. But humans by forming their own internal ecology, tend to make the human race less than it should be. Going to Mars is so that humans can test them selves against nature, not so that they can again be tested against other humans. Humans against humans has a rather bad result, without Humans against Nature. That's my opinion anyway. But if you would prefer to go in circles until the deterioration of humans leads to the last of them picking their teeth with the second to the last humans bones, then by all means go ahead, waste your time.

Void · 2016-12-13 19:22:41

Alright, I am comfortable with the work for "Salt Ponds", but now I am interested in complimentary space which can be pressurized and might be useful to humans on Mars. For instance I am wondering about a vertical shaft with a cap on top that projects through the Utopia Planetia deposits all the way down to the bottom of them.

For the cap, I am wondering about the outer shell of this idea:

As I see it that "Cap" in the nighttime would be a giant radiator. Not sure what would be set up for daytime operation. Could point heliostats at it and concentrate an energy focus in the center of the "Cap". Not sure the plastic would put up with it. And I expect the ice would melt, but that might be ok.

For now, I am going to look at the radiator at night aspect.

So, for now I am looking at the cold side of an energy device, which is never-the-less a passage also to the bottom of the deposits.

Obviously if it is a vertical shaft, you would need some kind of a very scary very long ladder, or a hoist mechanism to access the bottom of the shaft.

I anticipate convection will move cold from the "Cap" to the walls of the shaft during the night, if the interior is pressurized say 1/3 to 1 bar.

So, then this shaft will become a cold storage mechanism, and the "Cap" of course will be a night time radiator.

To keep the walls of the vertical tube from drying out and the soil flaking off, periodic squirting of water onto the walls will be needed, or a vapor barrier.

In place of a "vertical" tube could be a helical tube with staircase, or a diagonal ramp with staircase. Potentially any of these could store cold. And of course they could be passageways to what else might be built down deep in the Utopia Planetia deposit's.

So, I guess we can call these "Cooling Shafts", and they are very simple in their cold collection operation, relying on convection, and the integrity of the pressure shell of the "Cap" and shaft.

Last edited by Void (2016-12-13 19:38:20)

Void · 2016-12-13 19:43:42

So, if you have a "Salt Pond (Solar), and a cooling shaft, perhaps you can get a temperature range of 140 degF, (Barring dust storms). And generate electricity by it. I'm not being Metric just now, have my war paint on actually. Strangely an American using "English Units". That's just a nice thumb in their eye. I'm just outside the campfire watching. You.

Metric is OK, but this is a required ritual, rebelling and such.

So, now you have shafts that reach to the bottom of the deposit's and the skyentists are just incredibly excited as they got samples from all the shafts, helical staircases, and ramp staircases.

Last edited by Void (2016-12-13 19:47:08)

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