Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Void · 2022-12-21 20:48:58

I am doing a lot of leapfrogging, but continuing with this about the Antarctic Seaweed: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 11#p204311

I just have a bunch of reference materials:

red alga palmaria decipiens
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio … f_darkness
https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 … 22-03071-y
https://news.yahoo.com/seaweed-found-10 … 23059.html
Quote:
"Seaweeds are also an important food source to numerous animals and fish and have been eaten by people in many coastal communities in parts of the world for centuries... [and] have been used in a variety of cosmetic and pharmaceutical goods and with carbon-neutralising properties it represents a sustainable product."
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02342184
100 meters = 328.08399 feet.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals … 40221BF4E1

One of the adaptation problems will be the light sequence, as Mars is almost 2 times as long for a year.

But in the Tropical area, I expect that there are two cycles of 11 months, with more or less the sun overhead.
Perhaps the Algae could adapt to that. Otherwise in the high latitude areas of course the summers and winters will be very long, but who knows maybe the plants could endure it.

Done.

Void · 2022-12-22 17:04:47

I am more drawn to Mars itself than I was, because I believe that it may be possible to have endless numbers of surface and underground installations which could be economically productive.

This is an interesting video from Isaac Arthur, I think I recall he does have a mention of orbital power methods.
https://isaacarthur.net/video/farming-on-mars/

But I am also interested in Phobos and of course eventually Deimos.

Of course these people were not specifically thinking of Phobos or Deimos, but I have been, and would like to consider adapting what they have to that. https://newatlas.com/space/space-habita … 20together.
Quote:

Inside-out asteroids: A practical method for creating space habitats

Image Quote: https://assets.newatlas.com/dims4/defau … d-base.jpg

I had been thinking of a non-rotating sort of quilt which could be deployed like a dome, attached to Phobos.

That would give some radiation protection and thermal protection. A method of attachment is required.
Now though I am thinking of an American football shaped spinner.
https://www.bing.com/search?q=American+ … abcdfc9f29
It is just a first try, so let's not do a wedding ring. We could consider other.

But I can see if I can make a drawing.

This is very preliminary:

https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/moons/mars … /in-depth/
https://gabrielenoziglia.com/is-chondri … agnetic%3F
Quote:

Are Meteorites Magnetic?
Magnetic: Since most meteorites contain metallic iron, a magnet will often stick to them. For “stony” meteorites, a magnet might not stick, but if you hang the magnet by a string, it will be attracted. Unusual shape: iron-nickel meteorites are rarely rounded.

I have shown a crude rectangular base and a "Football" above it. I am thinking of using magnetism to orient each of them. They might have mechanical connections, bearings, but I am sort of thinking of some method to levitate the "Football" magnetically, as the gravitation of Phobos is very weak.

If from the base you could dig into Phobos, you might deposit the extracted regolith into the spinning football.

As this apparatus is to be on one of the spin poles, then with sufficient thickness you would have radiation shielding from the sun's outbursts. And it might protect from GCR as well, although I have indicated an opening at 'A' and 'B', those could also be modified for protections.

At this time, I am contemplating a low gravitation spin for the football, but then a torus or something like that that could hole air pressure could be in it.

I have not yet speculated on power supply.

Good enough.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-23 09:10:07)

Void · 2022-12-22 18:54:37

So, anyway, it seems likely that Phobos is "Chunky" inside. If so, it may be possible to establish relatively safe environments between big slabs of rock. Later it might be convenient to even put spinning habitats inside of Phobos.
But now by adapting the web notion it might be possible to create a spinning radiation shield, which also would moderate temperature fluctuations inside of it.

It has long been my feeling that there is an advantage to delivering supplies to Martian orbit, from Earth, as it allows methods other than Starship alone, to deliver a large amount of cargo.

Using a nuclear-powered ion propulsion for instance. For Phobos when the "Hot" reactor arrives it can be put into radiation shield and be used in the orbital power grid of Phobos. But this could be done with solar panels as well.
The method to use might be Ballistic Capture, so the departure times from Earth can be more permissive to a very large extent. If the materials were for use on and around Phobos then just fine. But if they were to be delivered to the surface of Mars, the relative stress of landing from a low orbit of Mars is ~4 to ~6.5 for entry from interplanetary space. So, a Starship would be less stressed.

And for a Starship traveling up and down, it might be that Oxygen for landing might be procured from a Phobos base. Maybe even Methane eventually. We don't know.

This machine again might be able to get Oxygen, maybe even Carbon from the materials of Phobos: https://www.space.com/esa-oxygen-from-l … ay%2012%29.

This has a GIF I like: https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/moons/mars … /in-depth/
It sort of looks like there is a crater at the top of Phobos as viewed. That might be a good location.

So, ships launched up from Mars to fetch stuff delivered from the Earth/Moon, would not have to bring up all of the propellants that they then would need to land on Mars with, provided those propellants could be created from the Materials of Phobos.

For various reasons then it might make sense to make the effort to put a base on and inside Phobos.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-22 19:13:56)

Void · 2022-12-23 09:04:37

I need to say I recall Calliban with a notion to have a rotator around a small asteroid, and with an arm that could touch the surface of the asteroid to fling materials into the centrifuge of his device. I always want to attribute to a source if I can.

So, this would be in the family of what he proposed, just for a bigger object.

This is very preliminary:

And here is what stimulated my thinking: https://newatlas.com/space/space-habita … 20together. Image Quote: https://assets.newatlas.com/dims4/defau … d-base.jpg

So, if going to Mars as per plans of SpaceX, it seems sensible to look of method to deal with Phobos and Deimos as well. I don't feel strongly satisfied with my conversion to a device to work with Phobos but it is a start.

For instance, it is difficult to see how to work with Phobos, at least it's surface. The gravitation is so low.

I have suggested magnetism, and that may help. But if we create a device that is bulky, then it might be large enough for the tiny gravity of Phobos to be utilized.

So, here is a possible variation:

The Disk-Torus is partly filled. It has spin gravity but is also pulled in the direction of the parent body, Phobos, to the degree that it has mass added.

Query: "How much would I weigh on Phobos?"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=How+much+ … 7bd4848392

Specific Response: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobos_(m … %20Travels.
Quote:

About 40 gram-force (2 ounces)
A person who weighs 68 kilogram-force (150 pounds) on Earth would weigh about 40 gram-force (2 ounces) standing on the surface of Phobos. Geological features on Phobos are named after astronomers who studied Phobos and people and places from Jonathan Swift 's Gulliver's Travels.

So, technically Phobos shields hard radiation from a bit less than 50% of the sky.
A problem is if you placed this device on the Mars facing side secondary radiation may come from Mars, and be a hazard. But Mars and Phobos would to some degree shield from GCR.

If you can find or make a significant crater at a polar area, where the berm-lip of the crater, encompasses the machine, then still greater protection can be afforded.

The disk centrifuge, partly filled with dirt/regolith, can create spin gravity. You might burry habitats in its dirt.

So, then this is probably rather good radiation protection along with the other factors that were mentioned previously in this post. So, by adding mass to the spin torus, you begin to be of a size that might significantly respond to the gravitational field of Phobos.

To begin the process, you might use magnetism to make the device stick to Phobos, while you were by some means stirring up surface regolith and directing it into the spinning torus.

Spin gravity desired might be 1 g, but I am not sure that the net could put up with it, be strong enough.

But it may be a notion that can be developed over time to practicality. A ton of regolith on Phobos would be quite a lot of mass.

So, I will let it hang there for now.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-23 09:47:52)

Void · 2022-12-23 12:25:35

Query: "Phobos is lumpy"

General Response:
https://www.bing.com/search?q=Phobos+is … c2f2657eef

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne … 180957249/

https://sci.esa.int/web/mars-express/-/31031-phobos
Quote:

One reason to suspect that Phobos is not a captured asteroid is its density. Analysis of Mars Express radio science data gave new information about the mass of Phobos based on the gravitational attraction it exerts on the spacecraft. The team concluded that Phobos is likely to contain large voids, which makes it less likely to be a captured asteroid. Its composition and structural strength seem to be inconsistent with the capture scenario.
It is possible that Phobos formed in situ at Mars, from ejecta from impacts on the Martian surface, or from the remnants of a previous moon which had formed from the Martian accretion disc and subsequently collided with a body from the asteroid belt. Data from the Mars Express OMEGA spectrometer suggests Phobos has a primitive composition, so primitive materials must have been available for accretion during its formation. The circular orbit suggests that Phobos formed in situ whilst analysis of the Planetary Fourier Spectrometer data from Mars Express also points towards in situ formation but does not rule out the possibility that Phobos is a captured achondrite-like meteor.
Further information about the orbit, shape, rotation and interior structure of Phobos would have been gathered by the Phobos-Soil mission, which failed to leave Earth orbit following launch in 2011. Understanding the formation of the Martian moons would contribute to the overall understanding of the formation of the Solar System, and scientists from ESA are considering a future sample return mission to Phobos.

So, it is not proven, but if it does contain large voids, I would also presume it contains large lumps of rock as well.

This device could be good for starting up a base, but it would be prudent to improve it over time.

The disk would spin on the base "Box", so that needs wheels and perhaps also magnetic levitation like a train.

But it has to be considered what will happen if the power goes out and the thing starts spinning down.

Can the disk hold its shape? Will the thing start spinning out of control and beat itself to death on the surface of Phobos?

So, there could be phases of development:
*At the beginning some small habitats are to be placed in the inside perimeter of the bag.
1) Use magnetism to hold the device to the surface of Phobos, only spin the minimum needed to make regolith deposit in the inside perimeter of the disk bag. A method is needed to stir up the regolith under the machine and bounce it into the bag where it will centrifuge to the inside perimeter.
2) When possible, create a physical link from the base of the device to a sizable chunk of rock inside Phobos. Anchor it. Perhaps cables?
3) Spin the disk up to whatever g force it can handle and will also give health to humans.
4) Build additional living space inside of Phobos.

The small habitats inside of the spinning disk would be for therapy for humans working inside of Phobos and also in orbit of Mars, perhaps arriving to Mars, supposing that a safe efficient way to transport humans to the orbits of Mars would come to exist.

It might be possible to add materials to the outside of the spinning disk by a vacuum deposition method, to strengthen it.

Probably eventually a centrifuge habitat would be built inside of Phobos, but the initial construction phase might have humans in small habitats embedded in the regolith of the disk, for periodic rehabilitations.

If this moon can become a refilling station for spaceships, the economics of it may be rather good. In addition to access to Mars itself, access to asteroids might be a good thing it could assist in.

But it would not be a substitute for Mars itself. I think it would be great to be able to develop both worlds, and perhaps Deimos as well. If the method works for Phobos, then it might be a good way to initiate settlement of many asteroids of various sizes. Perhaps not the smallest asteroids, but some rather small ones, and it may work ok for Ceres as well.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-23 13:06:26)

Void · 2022-12-24 11:14:56

I don't think I am going far off topic with these two videos, not far from Mars and Phobos, and perhaps including Earth as well.

I have some more snow shoveling to do, but I need a rest anyway.

I have been stimulated today to keyboard the phrase "Climate Control".

Our people who constantly want to hit the big red panic button, haven't gotten to that yet.

They have progressed from Greenhouse Effect to Climate Change to Climate Catastrophe, to lighting their hair on fire and running in circles screaming.

I guess we actually want climate control after all. So, far, we have "Climate Influences".

I suggest that we avoid "Climate Panic".

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=A+ … &FORM=VIRE
Quote:

A New Way to Achieve Nuclear Fusion: Helion
YouTube2.1M views1 week agoby Real Engineering

My early thinking on this is that it is incredibly complex, but our abilities perhaps are expanding to work with it.
I think it will be a long time to perfection to be truthful. The most important thing to be careful about is the apelike craving of a sports game, trying to choose a winner, and dropping the looser. We would be very foolish to ever abandon the development of this, unless something equally amazing showed up, and even then this should be nurtured. If this eventually is perfected it may allow human expansion all the way out to the Oort Cloud and also to Rogue Planets as well.

In our energy systems I think that it is important to consider the social influences of having distributed power compared to having centralized power. That is why I favor home solar as part of the mix. Even if at this time China burns coal to make solar panels, having North Americans have some distributed power is important to reduce the social power of the Literal Idiots. People were amazed by the river valley civilizations of old, but they ended up being ruled by tyrants, for the most part, I think. Similar for Petro-States. So, providing that individual citizens get even 10% of their energy from solar on average would be a good thing in my opinion socially.

And perhaps eventually this fusion process will be competitive, but even then, it is better to have some relative distribution of power both energy and social.

The literal idiots, also keep some violent enforcers in their hive structure, so if allowed they kill out the other skill sets, such as technological.

Granted, most energy systems are now very technological, but don't misunderstand just how stupid the literal idiots can be. They very easily could draw us to a sudden collapse situation and feel that they are the most brilliant people doing it. They are verbal apes more or less, in my opinion.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Th … &FORM=VIRE
Quote:

The Milankovitch Cycle Timeline: Where are we now?
YouTube243K viewsOct 13, 2019by It's Just Astronomical!

So, if we are to believe this video, we should be in a mild ice age at this point, but it is put forward that our "Greenhouse Effects" have prevented it.

Some people worry about major cities being flooded. But would we want the sea level to fall say so much that they were no longer in an ideal place?

I am willing to entertain the idea that an ice age has been forestalled by human activities. We were in a "Little Ice Age" prior to the industrial revolution.

This Query: "Volcanism created the snowball earth"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Volcanism … 2fc70cf335

You can look it over if you like.

So, there are different types of Volcanism. Some can cool the Earth, and some can heat the Earth.

Underwater volcanos that result from continental breakup, and Sulfur into the Stratosphere can cool the Earth. And more rainfall/erosion can as well.

We expect greenhouse gasses to heat the Earth.

Sulfur compounds in the atmosphere is one way to try to cool the Earth. Caution is advised in doing that.

https://www.usgs.gov/programs/VHP/volca … 20aerosols.
Quote:

Explosive underwater volcanoes were a major feature of this ‘Snowball Earth’, according to new research led by the University of Southampton. Many aspects of this extreme glaciation remain uncertain, but it is widely thought that the breakup of the supercontinent Rodinia resulted in increased river discharge into the ocean.

So, now we may have methods to climate control for both Earth and Mars.

For some reasons it might be considered more important to improve the atmosphere of Mars than to warm it up too much. I also consider flooded land to have limited value. Small, controlled bodies of water might be very useful, but an out-of-control ocean not so much.

So, if an orbital solar power inverse Dyson swarm were created around Mars, to send vast amounts of energy to the Martian surface, that power could help to increase the atmosphere, but it might be important to keep the planet cold. in general. If you had such orbital assets, you could warm up certain locations of Mars, such as the Rift Valley, and The Hellas Depression, but you might want to avoid a general planetary warm up.

So, it might be in the future that Simulation of certain types of volcanism might be used on Mars to cool the planet, so that more orbital solar could be safely sent to its surface.

So, it is probably good to develop orbital assets for Mars, and that would involve Phobos and Deimos and perhaps asteroids as well.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-24 11:52:32)

Void · 2022-12-27 10:31:37

I have been thinking about Rogue Objects and this possible/probable path to Fusion power.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=A+ … &FORM=VIRE
Quote:

A New Way to Achieve Nuclear Fusion: Helion
YouTube2.1M views1 week agoby Real Engineering

Of course, in the end it is not enough to be able to do Fusion, as even bombs have claimed that since WWII.
1) You have to get more energy out of the process than what gets put into it.
2) It has to be economically competitive.

#1 has to be achieved, or it is wasted effort.
#2 Might not ever be competitive on Earth, but even so could help to open up some worlds where other methods for energy are lacking. And that could involve remote words in orbit of a star but far from its warmth, and also Rogue Planets.

Query: "Rogue Planets"
General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Rogue+Pla … 6b97a92f02
Query: "How many rogue planets are there?"
https://planetseducation.com/rogue-plan … nd%20Venus.
Quote:

100 billion rogue planets
According to an estimation, our galaxy milky way alone has more than 100 billion rogue planets. Most of these planets are gas giant planets like Jupiter and Saturn but they can also be rocky planets like Earth and Venus.

https://skyandtelescope.org/astronomy-n … milky-way/
Quote:

Researchers at the Kavli Institute for Particle Astrophysics and Cosmology (KIPAC) at Stanford University estimate that "nomad" planets could outnumber stars by as many as 100,000 to 1. Ejected from their home stellar system, the wandering planets now free-float through the Milky Way. Earlier estimates were more like a handful to 1, though previous studies have only counted unbound planets more massive than Jupiter.

Not a language I very well understand, but: https://arxiv.org/abs/1201.2687
Quote:

Astrophysics > Astrophysics of Galaxies
[Submitted on 12 Jan 2012]
Nomads of the Galaxy
Louis E. Strigari, Matteo Barnabe, Philip J. Marshall, Roger D. Blandford
We estimate that there may be up to ~10^5 compact objects in the mass range 10^{-8} -10^{-2} solar mass per main sequence star that are unbound to a host star in the Galaxy. We refer to these objects as nomads; in the literature a subset of these are sometimes called free-floating or rogue planets. Our estimate for the number of Galactic nomads is consistent with a smooth extrapolation of the mass function of unbound objects above the Jupiter-mass scale, the stellar mass density limit, and the metallicity of the interstellar medium. We analyze the prospects for detecting nomads via Galactic microlensing. The Wide-Field Infrared Survey Telescope (WFIRST) will measure the number of nomads per main sequence star greater than the mass of Jupiter to ~ 13%, and the corresponding number greater than the mass of Mars to ~25%. All-sky surveys such as GAIA and LSST can identify nomads greater than about the mass of Jupiter. We suggest a dedicated drift scanning telescope that covers approximately 100 square degrees in the Southern hemisphere could identify nomads as small as 10^{-8} solar mass via microlensing of bright stars with characteristic lightcurve timescales of a few seconds.
Comments: 10 pages, 6 figures
Subjects: Astrophysics of Galaxies (astro-ph.GA); Earth and Planetary Astrophysics (astro-ph.EP)
Cite as: arXiv:1201.2687 [astro-ph.GA]
(or arXiv:1201.2687v1 [astro-ph.GA] for this version)
https://doi.org/10.48550/arXiv.1201.2687
Focus to learn more
Journal reference: Mon.Not.Roy.Astron.Soc. 423:1856-1865, 2012
Related DOI:
https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1365-2966.2012.21009.x
Focus to learn more
Submission history
From: Louis Strigari [view email]
[v1] Thu, 12 Jan 2012 21:08:03 UTC (45 KB)

If Rogue Planets outnumber stars by 100 to 1 or 100,000 to 1, that is a lot of real estate, isn't it.

So, there might be a lot of what I now think of as "Flooded Worlds". Flooded with Hydrogen, perhaps.

If we do the "Three Bears" on the 8 so called planets in our solar system, as to Dry, Just Right, and Flooded, I think Mars wins for a technological society.

Earth may have been "Just Right" as a nursery planet for humans, but much of its surface is flooded by Hydrogen and Hydrogen containing compounds.

But I believe that we can likely terraform Mars, where much more of its surface % can be useful land than for the % for Earth.

Sometimes Rogue planets are described as those which are ejected from a star system to, but I also consider the ones that form in a nursery and are net even as large as brown dwarfs. 13 to 80 Jupiter masses are Brown Dwarfs I believe. But even those tiny worlds might have moon/planets? That is if we consider them also to be failed stars, then objects orbiting them are planets of some sort. (Dwarf Planets also perhaps). If we consider objects 1less than 13 Jupiter masses but being like our four outer planets, then orbital objects would be called moons.

I would expect most rogue planets would be "Flooded".

But if Jupiter with its moons was a rogue, either ejected or "Native" to Rogueness, the it may be possible that Io would be "Dry".

Would Europa, Ganymede, or Callisto have Hydrogen/Helium atmospheres?

All this notion of dry or flooded, has made me look at Flare Stars differently.
Could newly formed planets be toasted by a flare star, and then be ejected?

Then it would be expected that if they had sufficient size, they might acquire a Hydrogen/Helium top Atmosphere.
They might even have a Nitrogen/Argon atmosphere under that, if the topping atmosphere of Hydrogen/Helium held enough warmth for those gasses to also then be in vapor form.

We may expect that they might have so much Hydrogen/Helium that the surface pressure would be very high, perhaps as much as what is at the bottom of our oceans.

Some visions of such worlds have open water. But a more conservative one would be ice covered oceans/seas/lakes, and then Nitrogen/Argon over that and then the Hydrogen/Helium topping atmosphere.

In that version the ice-covered Oceans might have some free Oxygen, I speculate. The reason for my speculation, is that life living on radioactive decay products would incorporate lots of the Hydrogen and Carbon into their bodies, but not as much Oxygen.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/21 … sea-floor/
https://www.intelligentliving.co/life-d … under-sea/

So, we might consider the ejection of Mercury and Venus. I guess we might presume them to be much like they are now, as we do not really know their previous natures very well.

Both planets have considerably more Carbon than Hydrogen, as far as we know.
https://phys.org/news/2016-03-discovery … lanet.html

Maybe I will focus on Venus. Ejected into space to be a rogue planet, just as it is now, as we do not know its previous nature.

Upon ejection, eventually the CO2 would condense, first to liquid than then to freeze.

Until a "Topper" atmosphere of Hydrogen and Helium could be accumulated from the interstellar environment it would continue to cool, perhaps until Nitrogen would condense, probably to a liquid, but potentially to an ice.

The subsurface still hot springs of fluids, and geysers might be present, perhaps cryovolcanoes.

Venus may already have something somewhat similar to plate tectonics, but with lubrication and with the cooling of the surface that should speed up.

As a "Topper" atmosphere of Hydrogen and Helium would accumulate, leakage of Hydrogen down would allow plate spreading to generate water from CO2 and H2, (I think). This would further lubricate things. Some water would form ice on the surface, but there could be hot spots where the ocean spreading might occur.

As I have previously said, Red Dwarf infants with flares might create some dry worlds. Those ejected would become flooded over time.

A spacefaring "People" who might find these planets would likely find them at some stage of Dry to Flooded.

As such worlds more and more "Topper" atmosphere, they would also warm up, it is thought. Such worlds might have a variation of amount of radioactive heating.

An alien race might be adapted to very high pressures. Perhaps even some future descendant of humans might, at least robots might.

But such worlds might have utility to humans, by terraforming them. Selectively removing the "Topper" atmosphere, to cool the world. Then running fusion reactors to make energy for humans. So, then it becomes a radiator, and it is possible that the surface would be relatively suitable to humans.

So, then we might think that magnetically active stars might eject dry terrestrials into interstellar space. Somo of these might be possible to terraform, provided fusion was an option. I am supposing that part of the "Topper" atmosphere would be ejected using Fusion bombs set off in orbit.

But it may be that such worlds will continuously accumulate more Hydrogen, and Helium from the interstellar medium. Helion seems to be able to generate its own Helium 3, so I am guessing that eventually Fusion of regular Hydrogen may become possible. If so, then do you really need stars?

So, rogue planets might be the best stuff, rather than star orbiting planets.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-27 11:48:30)

Void · 2022-12-27 19:44:11

Continuing with the last post, it seems I recall that brown dwarfs can burn Deuterium and perhaps Lithium. When they run out of those, they no longer do fusion. They are 13 to 80 times the size of Jupiter. So, for an object to be a planet, it is not supposed to be more than 12-13 times the size of Jupiter. At least the previous is what I believe to be true. Correct me if needed.

There are some Red Dwarf Systems discovered, that have planets with tidal resonances. Trapist-1 is one such.
Jupiter resembles that. Ignoring that Io is very radiation bathed, it might be wondered if a "Sized up" brown dwarf system could exist.

Multiple in sizes to Jupiter, could such a system have an Io the size of Earth? Or a Europa?

An Io with just some water, but not flooded, might be very interesting to space travelers of the future. A place to get heavy elements.

Even worlds the size of Jupiter or 12 times as big might provide that.

-----

I did a speculation on an ejected Venus in the last post. I would like to speculate on an ejected Earth now.

The Earth has plate tectonics of course, and that interests me for this.

This is a very nice article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plate_tectonics
In the seafloor it can often occur that new crust is created at this sort of a formation:
I think that the mid-Atlantic ridge, including Iceland could be a nice model for what I am thinking about for rogue planets.

On a planet which is cold, there might not even be sublimation of fluid materials, and yet the spreading sea floor, (Which might be dry in this case), would move ice materials around as if they were continental rock that can float on the lower structures.

So, it would be like a conveyor belt that moves ices towards this sort of thing where they will pile up:

Some water might be generated by Hydrogen in the atmosphere seeping into the exposed hot rocks at the Midatlantic Ridge, but mostly it would be a dry mountain range, perhaps on a dry sea floor.

But at the subduction zones, likely subglacial lakes might form from the piled-up ice.

So, glaciation and catastrophic floods might be possible from that piled up ice, (Ices of many things). But in a very cold environment the rate of glacial flow may be low. It depends on what the ices are made of. Nitrogen on Pluto is like tooth paste I have read.

Ice on Europa's surface may be as hard as rocks.

And so, this is what I think might be found in the case that no major thermal insulation from Hydrogen and Helium develops. If we could find an Earth like that, three major sources of energy would be available. Geothermal in the ridge areas, nuclear fission, and perhaps the Helion type nuclear fusion.

On the ridge, it might be possible to build domes held up with heated air inside. Opaque insulation might work fine. Artificial lights then of course. Aerogel insulation?

But if you do find rogue terrestrials that have had a lid of Hydrogen and Helium placed on them, the surface may be somewhat different.

The possible variations are many some even of open water seas.

But to make the useful to humans you would need to deplete much of the Hydrogen and Helium, in order to lower the air pressures. This then would likely cause the seas to freeze on top, but that is not necessarily a bad thing.

So, you could then have domes over the ice and heat them with fusion to melt the water, and even have an N2/O2 mix inside.

Flooded situations may be prevalent in Rogue bodies, rock covered with ice/water/very thick atmosphere. So, you would value "Dry Land" on Rogue planets. But if we can get to full fusion even of regular Hydrogen, then these rogues may mostly be gigantic untapped fuel tanks, to give vast amounts of energy to a space faring "Civilization????".

I have enjoyed visualizing the materials here.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-27 20:14:25)

Void · 2022-12-28 11:31:19

I have sort of considered something else now. Undifferentiated worlds.

Rhea a moon of Saturn may be such. That might be important to access "Metals" by which is indicated heavy elements other than H2, O2, Carbon, ect. But you also need Nitrogen. Titan has it, and Enceladus seems to have Ammonia in its waters.

The movie Interstellar does not mention fusion power, but the story includes the struggle to acquire Mastry of gravity.

https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questio … er-station

Of course, the audience needs and wants a good story, and so they went for that. I am not cutting it down and have no desire to.

But once they had Cooper Station with or without some gravity tricks, they could have built themselves a civilization for humans making many replicas of Cooper Station. The ingredients may all be there.

Even Enceladus, if it has no life might be a source of heavy elements, I read that the pressure at the "Sea" bottom might be equivalent to 1000 to 1300 feet of water on Earth, so perhaps not impossible, but perhaps easier to get if from undifferentiated moons if possible.

It is tempting to say well if Helion can create aneutronic fusion, why not inhabit Titan? But really it might be that artificial habitats in orbit may be the way to go. Titan could be used for aerobraking of ships, perhaps Saturn as well could be used that way.

It is disputed, the differentiation of Rhea apparently: https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2007D … quilibrium.

Anyway, undifferentiated objects might be the best for human purposes around Saturn.

In taking such a moon apart, the ice could be dumped into Water Ball habitats, and the heavy materials used according to wants and needs. Caliban has in the past suggested water balls, which might have an ice cover, and would have enough gravity to produce sufficient pressure inside of them for habitation.

Of course, it might make perfect sense to have a metal/ceramic/plastic shell protecting the exterior.

Inside you could have vacuum chambers, in which you might spin habitats for artificial gravity. There is a potential for some safety in that case, where if the surrounding pressure is 1 bar, and you keep the volume of the vacuum low relative to the volume of the spinning habitats, an air leek or water leak into the vacuum chamber would not lead to deadly consequences, if you built it correctly.

This image is of a notion of a water jacket shape.

The water jacket is between two mechanical walls and can have partitions as desired. The water jacket area could have air pockets, and might be used both as a radiation shield, and for aquiculture.

Spinning a lot of water around might put considerable stress on the outer shell, but it could likely be done. When operating around Saturn and its many moons, the availability of water would be very large.

This water jacket shell might just have "Convenient Gravity", not 1 g. So, then that allows the structure to be bigger perhaps, less centrifugal force. My understanding is that our Moons gravity is not enough, so perhaps something between that of the Moon and Mars. Perhaps .25 g???

In this case the structure is simplified, as no windows included except for viewing ports perhaps. The intent is to be all about artificial lighting and aneutronic fusion to supply the power for that.

Other structures internal or external to this might supply heavier gravity simulations.

And this might be something that could be in the direction of habitats around dwarf planets, the Oort Cloud and Rogue Planets.

It is not very well developed, as not all is known about what future options are.

Having a water shell might also help for thermal regulation, and that might involve heat engines to utilize excess heat to make more electrical power.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-30 12:24:00)

Calliban · 2022-12-28 13:14:28

The original Island One proposed by the late Gerard O'Neill was a Bernal Sphere, some 500m in diameter. It would have massed about 5 million tonnes. Of this, about 250,000 tonnes would be steel structure, some 30,000 tonnes of air, around 700,000 tonnes of internal silicates for buildings and soil, around 50,000 tonnes of water and the balance about (3.7 million tonnes) being shielding. Water ice is actually the best shielding and happens to be abundant in the Kuiper belt and Oort cloud objects. So the substances we need to build a space colony are about 80% water, about 1% O2/N2 (also derived from water), 5% iron, 14% silicates. A rogue dwarf planet like Sedna, would contain enough of these materials in about the right proportions, to build trillions of space habitats. And the water, contains both protium and deuterium. Both could serve as fuels in large fusion reactors.

A large dwarf planet like Eris contains enough materials and fusion fuel to sustain an Earth sized population for billions of years. This population will not for the most part be living on or in the dwarf planet. They would form an orbital swarm or ring of habitats around it. By mounting individual spheres or cylinders on a rigid ring around the dwarf, humanity could build interconnected habitats with more land area than the Earth. Travel between them could be accomplished without expending any propellant. Electrically powered trains would run along the ring, allowing propellantless travel between the habitats. Some of these habs could be country sized.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-12-28 13:23:39)

Void · 2022-12-28 13:18:52

Thanks for the valuable assist. I will note your post in the index I am making in the 1st post of this topic.

There is some hope that for some Rogue planets, the fuel would be almost infinite, as the interstellar gasses may provide such. They might even accrete it continually if they are of sufficient size.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-28 13:22:25)

Void · 2022-12-28 19:49:13

I am certainly excited by this post from Calliban: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 68#p204468

Seeing that there appears to be real possibilities, I think I would reference some of the work of Isaac Arthur, concerning interstellar settlement and activities that may be possible as well. But I want to size his materials down our solar systems' objects, with the hope of eventual expansion into rogue planets and in a very distant future even to stars.

It makes sense to expand the human race to beyond the ability for it to destroy all parts of itself, or to so damage it in a major way.
The Planets, Asteroids, and Dwarf Planets offer that opportunity I feel.

Interstellar Highways
YouTube435K viewsFeb 23, 2017by Isaac Arthur

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Is … %26ghpl%3D

Beam Powered Spaceships
Isaac Arthur
718K subscribers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wol8EU6Rtbk

Crawlonizing The Galaxy: Settling Space At Ultra-Low Speeds
YouTube173K views6 months agoby Isaac Arthur

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Is … %26ghpl%3D

I am sure that we will try to send probes to shoot past near stars, which would be exciting. And we will likely build very powerful telescopes in space to look at those star systems as well.

But for our material needs, and the need for redundancy of active human centers, it seems to me that our solar system and eventually Rogue or Nomad objects will be better in reach. We know of the 8 major planets, and many of the minor objects and we are learning of Dwarf planets. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarf_planet

So, if we ignore major moons in the solar system, we have 17 objects which might in some way support human efforts.

If Fusion does become real as per Helion, then that is quite a big network, and it will take major idiocy to be able to kill all communities off. I think that is one of the things we want, to remove the ability of idiots to destroy human hopes. https://www.helionenergy.com/

So, I feel that many of Isaac Arthurs notions for the galaxy will fit very well for our not so small pond the Solar System + Oort Cloud + Rogue/Nomad objects.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-28 20:09:55)

Void · 2022-12-28 21:39:30

Quote:

Deep Space Habitats
Jul 7, 2022

This could be appended to the just previous post: https://isaacarthur.net/video/deep-space-habitats/

Done

Last edited by Void (2022-12-28 21:40:36)

Void · 2022-12-29 11:24:34

I wanted to post this:

Helion Comments: https://www.reddit.com/r/fusion/comment … ch_really/

Some skeptics included, and that is probably good.

What I think I do get, is the notion that 95% of original input energy can be recovered. And then the notion would be that a fusion explosion would add more energy to the rebound.

So, it is like a spring compressed from two sides. The energy of compression is recovered from the inductors to capacitors, I suppose an LC circuit(s)??? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LC_circuit Quote:

So, only 5% of the input energy has to be made up by a fusion action, in order to break even.

Financially though of course it has to have an energy gain, and also be financially competitive with other energy sources on a world.

In this case the world is Earth, so that may be one of the hardest markets.

Across the solar system, in many places fission would be the competitor.

Mars and Venus both have concentrated Deuterium, which might matter. Those both also would have solar and fission, and Mars may have geothermal.

Very icy worlds in the outer solar system might struggle to have a competitor from local resources, so fusion might be "The Thing" in those locations.

Of the dwarf planets, Ceres might be the exception.

I presume that any dwarf planet might be used to the best productivity possible. But they are not the same. I am thinking about and "Ideal" Dwarf Planet. If Fusion is possible, then it could make sense to look for it.

We might prefer it to have heavy elements available, near the surface, but that is a big ask.
We might want it to be suitable to space elevators. Anton Petrov has a recent video on that: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=An … &FORM=VIRE

I am guessing that given the arrival at both fusion at a reasonable price, and also space elevators able to work for Dwarf Planets, then my next question is atmosphere.

For Pluto, currently the atmosphere is in the process of freezing out, it appears.

It also loses atmosphere to space, but appears to have a massive supply: https://www.space.com/30265-pluto-nitro … stery.html

This is similar to what is said for Mars, but with a bigger supply, less gravity, and less sunlight, but I think in both cases, less magnetic protection from the solar wind.

A problem has just occurred to me for space elevators for Pluto. A space elevator might get damaged if materials accumulate on it by condensation to ices. So that would have to be guarded against.

In an ideal Dwarf Planet, you might inflate the atmosphere with fusion reactors. You would have to keep a space elevator warm enough to avoid ice accumulation.

The Dwarf Planets atmosphere would then serve as a radiator. Further from the sun, atmosphere loss to space should be reduced. But for Pluto, would an artificial magnetic field sufficiently reduce atmospheric losses to space?

An atmosphere for a Dwarf Planet may reach very high, and the space elevators might be much shorter than for Earth or Mars. It seems possible to me that much of the space elevator might be protected from micrometeor impacts by the atmosphere.

Whether this could be done for Pluto, is a question. But we can hope that forming stars would have ejected many Dwarf Planets in their formation, to become Rogue Planets. It may be possible that Rogue Planets that do not often enter a Stars solar wind may accumulate atmospheres of Hydrogen and Helium, but that might be a big ask. If fusion is placed on the surface of these worlds and with a strong artificial magnetosphere, perhaps such atmospheres can be retained even if the Nitrogen is warmed up to inflate an atmosphere under the Hydrogen and Helium. Maybe.

I intend to connect this post with post of Calliban.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-29 12:01:27)

tahanson43206 · 2022-12-29 11:40:58

For Void re #714

Thank you for the link to Helion news, including mention that their chief scientist will be attending a conference.

The reports of continued investment by risk takers is encouraging. I expect those funds are at considerable risk, but the rewards would be considerable as well.

(th)

Void · 2022-12-29 12:02:07

Thanks (th)

Calliban made this post: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 68#p204468
Quote:

A large dwarf planet like Eris contains enough materials and fusion fuel to sustain an Earth sized population for billions of years. This population will not for the most part be living on or in the dwarf planet. They would form an orbital swarm or ring of habitats around it. By mounting individual spheres or cylinders on a rigid ring around the dwarf, humanity could build interconnected habitats with more land area than the Earth. Travel between them could be accomplished without expending any propellant. Electrically powered trains would run along the ring, allowing propellantless travel between the habitats. Some of these habs could be country sized.

I have this post: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 10#p204510

So, I would like to imagine the ideal Dwarf Planet I might seek to have a ring around it in the manner that Calliban has suggested in his post.

So, if such worlds exist as Rogue Planets, they may be a more valuable target for human efforts, than would be the settlement of other star systems, in my opinion.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-29 12:07:06)

Void · 2022-12-29 12:29:14

In reference to the previous and more recent posts, it does not hurt to look at materials produced by others. In this case Isaac Arthur. I have not reviewed all of it, but will:

Isaac Arthur Videos, Pluto, Oort Cloud, Ceres:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Is … &FORM=VIRE

Done.

Rogue Planets: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Is … &FORM=VIRE

This newer thing can be added to the possibility of life on Rogue/Nomads: https://thecosmiccompanion.net/could-al … n%20worlds. Quote:

Could Alien Microbes Live Off Products of Radioactive Decay?
February 26, 2021 James Maynard 649 Views Biology, Extraterrestrial Life, Geology, Water
Microorganisms living under the ocean floor feed off products of radioactive decay. Could alien microbes do the same?
Microbes living beneath the seafloor feed largely on the products of radioactive decay, aided by sediment of the seafloor, a new study reveals. This finding radically changes how we look at life processes in one of the largest ecosystems on our planet. It could also alter our views of how life may have evolved on Mars or other alien worlds.

So, not connected directly to heat for organic energy, radioactive decay>Chemicals>Organics.

Steppenwolf Planet 1/3 to 3 times the size of Earth: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/scie … %20sources.
Quote:

Dubbed a Steppenwolf planet—since it "would exist like a lone wolf wandering the galactic steppe"—such a world could host a liquid ocean under an insulating layer of water ice and carbon dioxide snow, the study authors say. Hydrothermal vents on the planet's seafloor may infuse the alien ocean with chemical energy sources.
Earth-Size "Lone Wolf" Planets May Host Life - Science
www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/110309-rogue-planets-lone-wolf-steppenwolf-earths-water-life-space-science
www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/110309-rogue-planets-lone-wolf-st…

So, Dwarf Rogue Planets would not be like Steppenwolf Planets, so less chances of disturbing a life form. They would be smaller and colder. I don't know if they could accumulate much Hydrogen and Helium though. Maybe.

Done

Last edited by Void (2022-12-29 12:51:15)

Void · 2022-12-29 14:47:59

More and more I start to see things from a different perspective.

It is most likely that most "Outer" worlds will be "flooded" with light materials and have limited "Dry" land to provide heavy materials.

So, then that suggests that space habitats could often be built in the inner solar systems, and conveyed out to the outer flooded regions, to receive water and fusion fuels, and Nitrogen.

It also can suggest that perhaps some of these would fill up on such stuff, and then move inwards to a star, to get into its warmth.

Many people of science are just drastically desperate to find new life, so they despair about planets of excessively active magnetic winds from stars, usually Red Dwarfs.

My hope is that red dwarfs being presumed to be very active magnetically as stars are in youth, and persisting with it often, may cast out dry worlds in greater numbers. They would then likely accumulate some water and hydrogen over time as Rogue Planets/Rogue Worlds. This might be a great benefit to humans or their like in the future.

So, now when considering Proxima Centauri, I do not despair of it, I am pleased.

Should humans or their machines ever reach it, it may be of great value.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxima_Centauri
Of these worlds, this one interests me the most:

Proxima Centauri d
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigationJump to search
Proxima Centauri d
Artist’s impression of Proxima d (close-up).jpg
Artistic depiction of Proxima Centauri d, with Proxima Centauri and Alpha Centauri A & B visible in the background
Discovery[1]
Discovery site VLT-ESPRESSO
Discovery date 2020
Detection method Radial velocity
Orbital characteristics[1]
Semi-major axis 0.02885+0.00019
−0.00022 AU
Eccentricity 0.04+0.15
−0.04
Orbital period (sidereal) 5.122+0.002
−0.0036 d
Semi-amplitude 0.39±0.07 m/s
Star Proxima Centauri
Physical characteristics[1]
Mean radius ≙0.81±0.08 R?
Mass ≥0.26±0.05 M?
Temperature 360 K (87 °C; 188 °F)
Proxima Centauri d (also called Proxima d) is a candidate exoplanet orbiting the red dwarf star Proxima Centauri, the closest star to the Sun and part of the Alpha Centauri triple star system. Together with two other planets in the Proxima Centauri system, it is the closest known exoplanet to the Solar System, located approximately 4.2 light-years (1.3 parsecs; 40 trillion kilometres; 25 trillion miles) away in the constellation of Centaurus. The first signs of the exoplanet emerged as a weak 5.15-day signal in radial velocity data taken from the Very Large Telescope during a 2020 study on Proxima b's mass. This signal was formally proposed to be a candidate exoplanet by Faria et al. in a follow-up paper published in February 2022.[2][1]
Proxima d is a sub-Earth at least one-quarter of the mass of Earth (or twice the mass of Mars), orbiting at roughly 0.029 AU (4.3 million km; 2.7 million mi) every 5.1 days.[2] It is the least massive and innermost known planet of the Proxima Centauri system. It is the least massive exoplanet detected with the radial velocity method as of 2022. Proxima d orbits too close to its star to be habitable, and receives about 190% of Earth's irradiation—assuming an Earth-like reflectivity, its equilibrium temperature may reach 360 K (87 °C; 188 °F).[1]

Because of likely tidal locking, the hot temperature should not be a big problem, particularly as the planet is expected to not have a significant atmosphere. Even on the sun side, methods to deal with the heat should be possible. But radiation would be a big problem.

I expect that the night side will have lots of ices, and perhaps even a sub-ice ocean(s).

If it is not tidal locked as Mercury is not, then still ices may exist at the poles.

If ices exist there, then this would possibly be the way to go: This image is of a notion of a water jacket shape.

From post #709: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 62#p204462

A water jacked habitat would likely put up with the radiation well and might be flown outward if desired on the vigorous stellar winds of the star.

It is possible that Mass drivers would work on the planet as it is only twice the mass of Mars, and likely is without an atmosphere problem for that.

And there would likely be a lot of solar energy on the planet as a mirror pointing to the star would not have to ever be moved, provided that the planet is tidal locked.

So, it is a different way of valuing a star system.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-29 15:06:12)

Void · 2022-12-29 21:01:13

There is still a vast amount needed to learn for rogue planets.

I had the thought that our planets Mars and Mercury are special, as they are at the threshold between what could become a Steppenwolf world or perhaps a Rogue Dwarf world. So, adapting to these two could be very important if humans are going to venture into interstellar space to work with Rogue objects out there.

This article seems to support the idea that many Mars sized worlds might be cast out of forming star systems to become rogue worlds:
https://www.syfy.com/syfy-wire/could-tr … our-galaxy
Quote:

“We are most interested in those rogue planets that form around stars and are later kicked out of the system,” he said. “Learning about that populations could answer things about how messy the process of planet formation is. If planet formation is a really violent process, we would expect to find a lot of small, Mars-like rogue planets.”

So, Mars sized is an "If", but it is early days.

Detecting Rogue Planets, is very difficult.

There is some evidence though: https://phys.org/news/2020-10-earth-siz … milky.html

I see a whisper of a chance, that if the secondary radiation from GCR striking a rogue object, perhaps it could be detected. Not so sure that we could make anything that sensitive though. But it might look different than the general cosmic background?

I believe that that is one way they detect Hydrogen on Mars.

Objects with magnetic fields may emit radio waves in some cases I believe.

Perhaps if rogue worlds do have an atmosphere they will have an induced magnetic field, and interact with the interstellar magnetics.

A comet does emit something apparently, at least in one case: https://www.npr.org/sections/alltechcon … deos-memes

Perhaps devices on the far side of the Moon might detect something, but I am guessing that the Oort Cloud objects would be more detectable. But they are of some interest as well. Being beyond the suns solar wind in many cases, maybe they might accumulate atmospheres, which might interact with the interstellar winds.

Well, obviously I don't actually know.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-29 21:26:40)

Void · 2022-12-30 10:55:17

Well this gives some encouragement: https://scitechdaily.com/our-solar-syst … telescope/
Quote:

“Our Solar System May Be Unusual”: Rogue Planets Unveiled With NASA’s Roman Space Telescope

Quote:

Finding galactic nomads
Roman will find rogue planets by conducting a large microlensing survey. Gravitational lensing is an observational effect that occurs because the presence of mass warps the fabric of space-time. The effect is extreme around very massive objects, like black holes and entire galaxies. Even solitary planets cause a detectable degree of warping, called microlensing.

It would at least give an estimate of the true population of Rogue Worlds.

Perhaps it might give some indications of objects in the Oort Cloud?

-----------------

I have been thinking about how things can be turned on their head to have a different understanding.

For instance, Flare Stars may give dry surfaces on planets and planets without atmospheres, (It is thought). But they also seem to prefer to make terrestrial sized planets rather than gas giants, and they may eject them, perhaps quite a few of them.

Another thing that could be looked at differently would be that it may be harder for binary stars to host planets, it may be that they tend to eject them. From my point of view now, if Fusion is possible, an ejected planet may have more potential value, as you would not have to navigate a star's gravity well to get to one. And stars can be sources of solar storms also.

Of course, detecting rogue planets is not a solved problem at this point.

A quote from the referenced article above in this post:

Lessons from cosmic castaways
Johnson and co-authors showed that Roman will be able to detect rogue planets with masses as small as Mars. Studying these planets will help narrow down competing models of planetary formation.

But that does not detect "Dwarf" sized worlds.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-30 11:08:51)

Void · 2022-12-30 11:51:33

Stumbled on this today. I do like to review the thinking of those better than me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYyg8JC-6ew

I have a fair desire to fool around today, maybe do two useful things as well.

I have been thinking about multifloored habitats in space, deriving from works like that of O'Neill.

The further from the sun, then the less a concern will be solar storms, and the less valuable the light of a star. Fusion is mostly the option considered for energy, so then this would often be dependent on it. But for Proxima Centauri, perhaps the notions would be OK as well, to use its stars output.

Back to post #709: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 62#p204462

This shape as a beginning for multifloored structure: This image is of a notion of a water jacket shape.

The original notion suggests that this would spin. But what if it did not spin? What if you could connect many of these things together?

The water being trapped between walls could be useful for radiation shielding, and also aquiculture, but humans inside of microgravity water vats probably requires masks and breathing gear and methods for passage into and out of the chambers. A sort of air/water lock method.

But the white space inside of the water surround, could be in a vacuum and you could have a spinner(s) inside it. As for ruptures to vacuum, you could by intelligent means reduce catastrophic hazards. The water jackets could also be helpful in thermal moderation and might help in recapturing waste heat to generate some power, perhaps.

As in O'Neill Cylinders you would have to compensate for gyroscopic effects by having counter spinning devices.

These water jackets could be arranged like a string of sausages or might join at angles to each other.

The availability of large amounts of water for this may start at Mars but begins to be easier in the more outer solar system.

The "White Space" in the diagram might not have a spinner in it at all and might be pressurized. A sort of microgravity place perhaps for aeroponics agriculture. The water jacket may serve in part to cool the interior, while recapturing waste heat.

One thing I am drifting towards is having a pressure shell that does not contain water, but a spinner(s) that do.

If open topped, then they would need sufficient artificial gravity to hold the water in the rings. But the rings could be multifloored, and you would have the chance to have what atmosphere you wanted in the outer pressure shell.

Most likely these spinners would be slow and give a low gravitation. Air resistance would sap some energy and create heat. But it would circulate air.

So, I am thinking of something like this:

While I say the rings are supported on rails, actually the rings should have tensile strength to keep them from flying apart. The rails would simply help guide them in place.

The upper floor in the shape of a "U" could be walked on. There could be reasonable shielding in this case, and a non-wet access to the containment canister wall to repair it. Earh ring could rotate in the opposite direction, perhaps to deal with gyroscopic problems.

But this is to stimulate the imagination of others, I can already think of ways to better a system like this, and reduce air drag.

So even "Sausage" links that were vacuum filled could have pressurized tubes to allow the bypassing of the vacuum, while a spinner was hosted within.

So, this could be a rather large complex of "Sausage" or other shaped links.

People may have increased safety option in a danger situation in one section.

And they could perhaps have daily access to alternate structure methods.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-30 12:57:36)

Void · 2022-12-30 19:15:19

I make note that Robert Dyck initiated conversation about Helion here: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 45#p204545

And so far, the conversation I have observed has continued to here: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 80#p204580

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-30 19:17:25)

Void · 2022-12-30 19:18:29

I wish to return to this conversation: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 64#p204564

I have in mind the idea of a Spiner, that is a spin gravity device inside of a water jacket device, with two ports one on each end of its axis.

I will attempt a diagram.......I guess this is it:

So, I think it would be possible to have passages pressurized 'A', and 'B' where you could walk out of the spinner into them and from them into the spinner. You would need seals that allow relative rotation between the spinner and the passages.

The Vacuum zone which is white and between the Grey Spinner and the Blue Water Jacket, would be of a minimal volume. Just enough so that service people and machines could navigate it when the spinner was stopped, and the vacuum was temporarily pressurized.

The volume of the Vacuum would be proportioned so that if the spinner and the vacuum zone equalized in pressure the occupants would not suffer significantly from the event, as the bends would not be induced. Also of course suffocation from vacuum or freezing from vacuum would not occur.

The Water Jacket would likely not spin, and access to it would be arranged separately but it would be radiation shield, possibly associated with dumping excess heat, and aquiculture.

Many of these or variations on these could be linked together.

The spinner would likely be guided to a centering by magnetic rails of sorts.

Lighting would almost certainly be artificial.

Done

Last edited by Void (2022-12-31 13:42:05)

Void · 2022-12-31 02:07:02

I was up late and found the video linked here. I listened to a part of it and found that he really had things to say that are interesting. I did not want to lose the reference so here it is. I will finish it later. He really has interesting things to say about global warming. And of course, that is of interest for terraform notions.

I believe he popularized the "Dyson Sphere" which I would call a potential form of para terraforming, just as domes on the surface of a planet could be.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeman_Dyson

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyson_sphere

Freeman Dyson: Heretical Thoughts About Science and Society, Boston university

The Video I refer to: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Fr … M%3DHDRSC3

https://www.edge.org/conversation/freem … nd-society

Done for now.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-31 02:11:31)

Void · 2022-12-31 13:41:27

I wish to return to this: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 82#p204582
And this in particular: I will attempt a diagram.......I guess this is it:

I want to modify it to the following, so that I can ask some questions about potential aspects of it:

Calliban gave this post, so I am adding water: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 68#p204468
Quote:

So the substances we need to build a space colony are about 80% water, about 1% O2/N2 (also derived from water), 5% iron, 14% silicates.

In reality, you could have multiple shells of water of different types. The outermost perhaps an Ammonia Water mix which could be very cold.

The water containment might actually be disk shaped, which I think is like a blood cell to offer a large exchange surface. In this case it would be the dry radiating of heat though the outer wall, and perhaps conductive thermal transfer through various more inner walls.

The outer shell might have a thermal insulation which could be modulated to help keep a thermal equilibrium that might be desired.

It would seem less likely that humans would like to be exposed to a very cold Ammonia Water mix. But if they did, they would need appropriate protection.

For water with or without salts, less protection might be required. But these would be microgravity water reservoirs, and while they might be overkill for radiation protection, the function of aquiculture might be valid. I think that fish do not do well in microgravity.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne … 180961817/

But perhaps breeds will develop that can. If so, that might shed light on some possible space medicine that may help humans in microgravity.

Anyway, in such water, for humans it may not be possible to have a layer of air to breath. Of course, you might use normal scuba gear to breath. But I have been trying to consider a centrifugal method to maintain an air bubble you could swim into. Perhaps if it were transparent, it could also host underwater lighting to shine into the waters. But of course, the use of Acetate might also be done to promote at least microbial crops.

This again: https://www.udel.edu/udaily/2022/june/g … catalysis/

But I would think that having some lighting would be OK, at least for human eyesight.

I have some ideas for bubble centrifuges that humans might swim into, but I am not quite ready with them. Obviously if the heavier water can be rejected and the lighter air retained that makes a sustainable bubble. And then needed is a method for humans to enter and leave the bubble.

That is as far as I am with that for now.

The other item I am thinking about is the vacuum between the water shell and the "Spinner", (Grey color). By Vacuum, it is more proper to say greater partial vacuum, and that might be considered a vacuum relative to the pressures in the grey spinner and the water jacket.

A hard vacuum should not be needed. Just enough for the spinner to not drag too much and I think speed of sound issues might matter, but I am not sure about that. Another concern is it takes a lot of work to provide a hard vacuum. I am going to guess that 10 millibars would be low enough, and Elon Musk has indicated that hyperloop could work on Mars, without the tunnel to travel through, but in the open atmosphere. Who knows, maybe 50 millibars? Anyway, the higher the pressure, the less high tech the pumps need to be to maintain the greater partial vacuum. And the less fussy you have to be about the seals that are at each "Bearing" end of the Spinner.

I have already indicated that the volume or size of VOID of the vacuum should be kept small enough so that a bearing leak would not lead to loss of life of medical problems.

It may also be true that in the volume of the VOID, the lower partial pressure air should spin, so the outer surface of the spinner and the inner surface of the water jacket should not experience full differential motion.

The spinner may need special methods to expel excess heat. It could have radiator fins on the outside that would also serve as structure strengthening but might even distill water and vent the steam into the vacuum VOID space. This then recompressed into water, would be returned to the spinner by some method. Possibly a pipe traveling though one or both of the end ports.

So, the atmosphere inside the VOID would be dominantly water vapor. This would be a forced distillation process, with evaporative cooling for the spinner. It might also be a source of hot water.

Well, Calliban said 80% water, so I wanted to move in that direction.

That of course more applies to the more outer solar system including the Kuiper Belt, and perhaps the Oort Cloud, and perhaps Rogue/Nomad/Steppenwolf worlds.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-31 19:50:55)

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