Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

tahanson43206 · 2022-12-05 06:57:31

For Calliban re #650

Your post is a welcome addition to the Terraformation Index!

I had ** just ** logged in to create a topic about Exponential Growth, only to discover your post about that very topic.

I'll create a new topic as planned, and copy your post as the first post after launch.

** VERY ** nice!

(th)

Void · 2022-12-05 07:14:30

A question of purpose? What's to do?

Yes, I think there could be a question of what is enough? Why bother? Also sits in there somewhere.

This is new to me: Quote:

The expansion of the universe actually provides braking for probes dispatched to very distant galaxies.

It might depend on the amount of matter existing between the stars. Chunks of it spit out from star formation. It might be that for that fast travel is playing Russian Roulet.

Someone told me, we might seek a "Polynesian" solution. Just enough "Islands", so that the idiot humans could not exterminate the whole pattern replication process. Maybe.....

I once had a notion of seeding "Wet' worlds with a DNA driven replication machine which would eventually produce humans. The "Seeds" would have multiple genomes, and act as organic replication machines, in the oceans. They would next grow very large "Trees", which would mostly be in the protective water, but would grow trunks up onto the shoreline. They would give "Birth" to animated life. As there would be no significant Oxygen, they would pass oxygen to the "animate life". Sea mammals can hold their breath for prolonged periods in some cases. The animated life would begin to build technology, and eventually something like a human. Someone told me that they would then build a spaceship so that they could come here and kill me.

Well then, we could get the technology from them, but I would be dead.

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The idea of pattern replication. What we already do. It is uncertain if the human race can reasonably keep a sensible form, or just devolve into a cancer like replication machine.

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Currently I am more to the notion of developing skills that would serve us. (But of course, I will be dead, so not really part of us).

Some kind of a pattern replication which could be well adapted to rogue worlds. Some think that there are a lot of them. An energy supply is needed other than stars.

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What pattern reptation would we like to perpetuate?

In one we are born human but then are given another cybernetic brain addition. When the body dies, does that item then go to another human, with the memories of the previous one?

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So, then the satisfaction of desires, a little adventure?

Or a super intelligent mega mind robot(s). Struggling to understand everything. Yes actually '42'.

And when they get the answer to '42', do they have something else to do?

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Is it a good thing when the "Gamers" torment the minions with fears all the time on the news media? Just what are they after. Is it just that they don't want to work for a living and just choose to cry like babies, trying to force the minions to change their diapers?

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So, then some pattern replication, but also some concern about quality. I don't think that it is a good idea to develop high tech, and then to be so silly as to slice each other up with light sabers, as in Star Wars, putting an archaic way of life, a control pattern, on top to rule a technological people.

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The robot mega mind that solves all the questions of the universe. Well, what would be left except to sleep?

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I consider that I have a favorable life, but the "stupid" of humans becomes such a dreary thing. Better to enjoy what you can of life. Not waste life, but enjoy it.

Machine pestilence that eats the universe, I think you and I would wish for more than that, as per quality of life.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-05 07:44:46)

Calliban · 2022-12-05 11:00:31

The more I consider human prospects on other solar system bodies, the more the ideas of the late Gerard O'Neill make sense to me. Why would we expend so much energy escaping Earth's gravitational prison, only to climb down another gravitational well? As a species, we have never really known any other environment than a single planetary surface. Because of this deeply ingrained experience, we naturally assume that living off-Earth, must involve climbing down another gravity well to another planetary surface. But this makes very limited sense.

Gerard O'Neill made the case for living in space. Not on another planet, or moon, or asteroid, but in space itself. The advantages seem obvious when you really stop to think about it. On Earth, huge amounts of energy are expended transporting matter against the frictional forces resulting from gravity, with trucks, trains, ships, cranes, conveyers, etc. In space, none of that applies. When a mass is set in motion, it will continue in motion unless halted. We can produce gravity where it is needed using rotation. But moving around matter becomes easy once gravity is removed. One might argue that human habitations in space must be pressure vessels. But that is no less true on Mars or the moon. On these bodies, power supply is a problem. In free space it is stupidly easy: Any temperature up to the surface temperature of the sun, can be produced using concentrating mirrors 1 micron thick. Solar energy in space is uninterupted and the EROI of slender solar energy systems constructed outside of atmospheres or deep gravity wells, can be superior to any Earth based powerplant. The sort of energy scarcity that is making life very miserable for many people on Earth, will never be a problem in space.

The question then is why would still settle other planets, or moons or asteroids? The answer is to mine them for the materials than cannot be found in free space. But aside from the abundance of raw materials, these places are less than ideal habitats for humanity. By the time humanity has built the infrastructure to terraform Mars, mankind will already have created a planet's worth of livable space on rotating habitats. These people will have little interest in colonising a planetary surface on which energy is scarce and gravity complicates moving things. By this point in time, mass production will have been applied to constructing O'Neill cylinders. We will have huge space factories, that will knock out these habitats innmuch the same way as car factories mass produce vehicles here on Earth. Habitable land with Earth surface characteristics will be cheap to make by using material mined from asteroids as the raw material stock. The cheap solar energy of free space opens possibilities that are hard to even imagine right now.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-12-05 11:13:14)

Void · 2022-12-05 11:10:57

I think that this is relatively true. Small worlds will likely have populations that may suit unusual types, but once the tricks are learned for living in orbits in the outer solar system, the only thing needed to go into the Oort cloud and beyond is an energy source.

Stars are wasteful, except that they can do the fusion of regular Hydrogen. But master that with some enormous type of machine, then the energy of Hydrogen is available in deep, deep space.

Done.

Void · 2022-12-06 11:35:42

From the topic: "Index» Life on Mars» Volcanic activity on Mars - and its age"
Quote:

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 2,232
Email
MarsB4Moon used to report discoveries like this. Does anyone know what happened to him? Is he OK?
***
Scientists discover a giant mantle plume beneath the Elysium region on Mars. This is proof that the planet is still volcanically active. It also makes the presence of liquid ground water highly likely beneath the Elysium crust. Until recently, Mars was expected to be seismically inactive. This magma plume is larger than anythihg existing on Earth. It also originated within the past 100 million years, suggesting that volcanic activity has actually increased in recent geological history.
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 90#p203990
If you want liquid water, geothermal power, or scientific evidence of extant life, the Elysium region is the place to set up base.
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

And from post #25, of the topic "Index» Life on Mars» Volcanic activity on Mars - and its age", this:

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,089
Email
This article that Calliban posted is somewhat ambiguous as the to potential for geothermal energy.
https://www.space.com/mars-recent-volca … ntle-plume
We also know that the insight landing area does not demonstrate much for water/ice.
It is a pity that the mole did not work but the nature of the soil will yield a machine made of dirt, I think.
But an area as large as the USA could have as much variability as the crust in the USA has. Some of it is more and some of it less suitable for typical geothermal power. And a little could be a lot for a Mars base/city.
I am moving my pointer on this to: "Index» Terraformation» Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.", post #654.
Done
Last edited by Void (Today 12:33:13)
Done.

As it happens if we are to be Aliens, and also occupy Mars, we may want to build pyramids. Now I am not trying to boost wacky notions, but I don't mind finding some fun where is can be found. My Sci-Fi space wants to play with this: https://www.universetoday.com/41283/pyr … he%201970s.

Pyramids On Mars
[/caption]
The Pyramids on Mars are hills or mountains on the surface of Mars that, from a low resolution image, have near-perfect symmetry resembling that of the Egyptian pyramids. These formations are found in the Martian region known as Cydonia, an albedo feature that gained celebrity-like attention in the 1970s.

Again, this is just me having fun from the notion that I think we should build pyramids on Mars, and it might be a smart thing for Aliens to do, if they Occupy Mars.

So, there has been some work with a mating of solar energy and geothermal/geostorage. Some of it is in prior posts here, some is in the topic: "Index» Science, Technology, and Astronomy» Geothermal and Geostored Energy"

Some of the members have veered in the direction of heat pump and thermal ground storage, which is fine.

And so, now, machines made in part, of dirt.

We can start with this: https://www.sciencealert.com/it-turns-o … n-concrete Quote:

Martian Soil Can Be Compressed Into Bricks Stronger Than Concrete
SPACE
28 April 2017
ByPETER FARQUHAR, BUSINESS INSIDER

So, now you see we could additively manufacture pyramids on Mars. Polygons. A face may be more sunward, maybe 2 faces near the equator. So, then those could host solar panels on those surfaces. You might incorporate heaters into the structure of the pyramids, should you wish, and insulate the outside surfaces to make it a heat reservoir.

Or you might tap the cold of the universe by letting the pyramid radiate thermally to the universe. During construction you might include cooling methods. Simple would-be tubes, passages that allow convection of a fluid. Martian air is very thin though. So, perhaps an enclosed liquid fluid method.

Although, this particular pyramid would be for storing cold, you still could put solar panels on it. They would shade the pyramid to help it stay cold and you could insulate the rear side of the solar panels to prevent passage of radiant infrared to the pyramid. You might even use the solar panels as radiators at night, to circulate and cool fluids to circulate though the Pyramid(s). This may or may not involve a heat pump system.

As it happens a lot of ice slabs have an overburden of regolith which probably should at least be partially removed. So, you could dig a hole in the slab ice, and construct a pyramid out of regolith, a machine in a large part made of dirt. Compressed dirt, 3D additive manufacturing out of dirt.

In some cases, you might build pyramids with housing in them, perhaps. Those then would be maintained at a sort of +/- comfort level and might help in enduring a global dust storm.

The thermal Pyramids also could be helpful in dealing with dust storms.

So, a cold pyramid would be helpful for some kinds of solar thermal energy methods, and also if you happen to have Geothermal wells, or I suppose Geostprage wells.

So, aliens on Mars

Done.

Even if they are not really from ancient aliens, which I am thinking is true, for visualizing what humans might consider doing, a query:
"Pyramids on Mars"
General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Pyramids+ … dd86b5d14e

It is just for fun. (The conspiracy people could use a toy)

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-06 12:15:13)

Void · 2022-12-06 12:27:06

Of course, building such things on Mars and the Moon or other places would be a signal about our once upon a time existence. So, may a time capsule in them?

On the Moon, you would likely sinter them into 3D shapes.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-06 12:27:34)

Void · 2022-12-06 22:23:34

Well, I wasn't going to post anymore today, but I ran into something that may fit into something I was contemplating.

A plant having qualities which might suit Mars, if given the proper assistance.

https://www.thenationalnews.com/world/u … a%E2%80%9D.

Quote:

Seaweed found living 100m below Antarctic ice shelf
Researchers say the discovery of red algae is 'important for furthering our knowledge of Antarctica'

https://news.yahoo.com/seaweed-found-10 … 23059.html

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals … 40221BF4E1

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio … f_darkness

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-63785575

Query: "red alga Palmaria decipiens"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=red+alga+ … 6b16c2c7c7

You might wonder why a jumped from Pyramids to this? Well, I am thinking that when you clear the regolith off the ice to make pyramids, you might also create aquatic gardens, which their may be a chance that this organism might be able to grow in.

I will try for an Imgur drawing.

A diagram, it is late:

Both the outside and inside of the enclosing dome will in the area of "A" will have little Oxygen in contact with the film enclosing "A".
Seadragon has indicated that this may allow plastic files not including Fluorine to endure U.V. light relatively well.

From "Index» Human missions» Construction technology for Mars?". Post#167

Quote:

SeaDragon
Banned
From: Merry Old England
Registered: 2020-07-25
Posts: 32
Email
louis,
Casey Handmer is amazing but I'd like to add a technical fix to that fluorine access problem for ETFE.
The call for ETFE is based on the impression that UV damage would destroy other types of plastic which is not necessarily true - it's mostly the production of oxygen based free radicals that causes the issue (for quick reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UV_degradation ). If you can stop oxygen from inside diffusing into the plastic then UV degradation is greatly reduced and the inclusion of hindered amine light stabilisers (HALS) as copolymers, even making up as little as 0.25% of the total plastic, this can be greatly reduced yet further.
So:
- With a thin layer of something like poly(ethyl vinyl alcohol), usually written EVOH, the majority of oxygen transmission into a plastic habitat skin can be stopped
- A small amount of HALS copolymers stops initial free radical compounds made just after UV absorption in the plastic from propagating and leads to spectacular decreases in corrosion rates before any oxygen that does get through can make things worse.
With these fixes we can just use PET or a similarly cheap and easily produced plastic with no crazy elements like fluorine needed at all.
If we reinforce with basalt fibre (very nearly as good as Keflar but far far cheaper than Keflar) instead of Keflar or equivalent we'd be able to build this sort of thing at an industrial scale using only the resources we have on hand + a few low mass imported extras like HALS copolymers, accounting for perhaps 400 tonnes of plastic per 1 tonne of HALS or something.
Last edited by SeaDragon (2020-08-01 09:14:35)

The grey divider between Ice and Water 'B' and water 'C', allows 'B' to give protective assistance to 'C'. With the pressure of 'B', 'C' can have different a different temperature, saltiness, and amount and kind of dissolved gasses.

It is possible that 'B' might be given an environment suitable to grow cold water plants and microbes, while 'B' being cold water and often with ice over it will not particularly evaporate or boil as it will be compatible with the pressure of 'A' which can be just a bit about the outside Martian ambient pressure.

Query; "Query what is the vapor pressure of water at 0 degrees Centigrade in millibars?"
https://socratic.org/questions/at-appro … apor-a-0-c
I think that that says: 5.6 millibar.

But I would expect the water/ice in 'B' to typically be below that temperature, quite a bit lower.

This is a nice calculator. It may go more into the weeds than I need, but OK.
https://www.weather.gov/epz/wxcalc_vaporpressure

So from it;
-O degC = 6.11 mb
But the ice/water in 'B' can be quite salty, so it never has to get that warm.
-20 degC = 1.25 mb

So, it looks plausible to me, that this could be done.

Query: "What is the water temperature of Antarctic Sea"
https://seatemperature.info/antarctica- … ature.html
Quote:

Antarctica water temperature today
Home > Antarctica
Sea water temperature throughout Antarctica is not yet warm enough for swimming and does not exceed 20°C. The warmest sea temperature in Antarctica today is 0.7°C (in Elephant Island), and the coldest water temperature is -1.8°C (McMurdo).

No swimming, unless you are a masochist with a death wish.

So, with the protection that might be offered by 'B', 'C' may have a produced environment that might support special organisms. Those may be capable of photosynthesis and growth.

The main concern may be the length of the night, I suppose. I do not know if "red alga Palmaria decipiens", could tolerate such a long winter.

But it is worth a look.

Even if it did not, with a power source, you might artificially light the garden. Would that be worth it? Well, I don't know.

The presumed low cost of the "Garden" relative to other options, is presumed. If true, and if the organisms grown have economic value, then it might be worth it.

I would imagine robots would be used to do the gardening.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-08 11:15:50)

Void · 2022-12-07 12:16:16

So, if slabs of ice are to be converted to seas, cold or even warm in some cases, the need to clear the regolith overburden will exist, and to make something useful out of it would be sensible.

So Pyramids.

But how hot could the innards of such pyramids be?

Yes, there is also hot bricks under development: https://www.freethink.com/energy/brick-heat-batteries
They think that they can work with a lot of high temperature processes.
Quote:

Brick batteries may be a key to decarbonizing heavy industry
Rondo Energy wants to store renewable energy as heat.
By B. David Zarley
September 23, 2022

So, it should be possible to make bricks and I suppose concrete, and steel, so it might be possible to make a chamber inside of a "Packed Pyramid Structure". Inside of such a chamber might be bricks or maybe just stones.

This query: "Pictures of rocks in Martian regolith"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Pictures+ … 26a41a1060

So, some soils above ice slabs may contain rocks, so you would sort them out and use the to fill a chamber to store high heat. That could be inside of a packed pyramid.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-07 12:27:16)

Void · 2022-12-07 19:42:24

I am going to do some considering here, about energy. I will not produce complex formulas; I will simply try to find measurements of what can be real.

Query: "How much energy is consumed to produce a solar panel? - Quora"
General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=How+much+ … ef96548f74

A cherry pick: https://www.solarmelon.com/faqs/solar-p … y-produce/
A Claim: Quote:

Ultimately, Solar Panels Generate Way More Energy than They Use
Researchers Sally Benson and Michael Dale decided to investigate the claim that solar panels use more energy than they produce. They published their results in Environmental Science & Technology. You can view their work here.
What they found was good news for solar energy advocates: solar panels generate more energy than they use, overall, and have been doing so since at least 2010.
Before 2010, solar panels likely produced more energy than they used as well. However, researchers only focused on the period after 2010.
The two researchers attributed their findings to improvements in solar technology, the growth of the industry, and more awareness of the energy used in solar panel production. Put simply, the industry as a whole has become more efficient.
How Many Years Do You Need to Use a Solar Panel Before Its Energy is “Paid Back”?
The paper linked above focused on one specific aspect of solar energy production called “payback”. Payback refers to this: how many years does a solar panel need to operate before it’s produced more energy than was originally used in its production?
Researchers found that it takes just 1 to 4 years for solar panels to “even out” or “pay back” their energy debt. When you consider the fact that panels are designed to last 20 to 25 years, on average, you can see why that’s an impressive rating.

Two things that I am aware of are that it is likely that hydrocarbon fuels will be needed in the manufacture, at least at this time.
Also, some parts of the making require lower wage labor, to keep the prices down.

If hydrocarbons are not avoidable it is possible that such will be manufactured from electricity.
And as for the low wage labor, it may be that something like Tesla Bot will help, even lower the costs.

A possible source for Hydrogen can perhaps come from Japan: https://japan-forward.com/nuclear-hydro … 0Important

While it is true that in the United States, due to cultural behaviors, nuclear will be suppressed, this will not prevent other countries from Manufactuing Hydrogen with nuclear, if the Japan method is good.

It appears that the Swedes along with Germans are closing in on making Steel with Hydrogen as the fuel: https://www.dw.com/en/will-sweden-lead- … a-57263616

Although the Swedes may not accept nuclear, (Or maybe they will), some country will adopt a method to product Hydrogen and methods to do hard processes like steel. They might also get Tesla Bots.

So, then I would say there the possibility to be able build solar panels, and possibly at a lower price than now, if the Tesla Bot labor works out.

-An observation that I have from reading is that solar panels are designed to work best in the winter. This would be of course if they get the light they need, I presume.

Query: "What season do solar panels work best in?"
https://www.justsolar.com/blog/do-solar … -in-winter

But I have been around specs before, and I know how messed up evaluations can become.

There are some longer scale thermal storage devices in development, which may store energy seasonally.
This is one: https://polarnightenergy.fi/

I don't think that this one is for seasonal storage, at least not at this time: https://www.freethink.com/energy/brick-heat-batteries
But possibly it might store a batch of heat, and perhaps that heat could be applied to a batch process of some kind. Then in the summer, it would charge up faster, in many cases I expect.

So I have borrowed from the above ideas and have speculated on speculated on a modification of https://www.eavor.com/ geothermal tubes modified to also accept surplus electric energy to store heat in a similar fashion.

And for Mars, I have speculated in the Pyramid schemes that are in recent posts here prior to this one.

I think the idea of storing seasonal heat on both Earth and Mars is important. Mars has very long winters and dust storms, and on Earth, for high latitudes, much of the solar energy will come in in the non-winter seasons.

Enough for now. There is hope for solutions to be developed over time.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-07 20:22:24)

Void · 2022-12-08 11:19:24

Returning to this diagram:

I think it would be important to confess that although we might want to emulate photosynthesis in nature, nature has already done it for us.

So, if our energy systems rely partly on machine methods, they also can rely on agricultural methods. What is needed though is new farm fields where none exist, and for the Earth aquatic farming looks like a chance.

I also am interested in the possibility that solar panels arranged in the East/West vertical orientation might make semi-arid lands fit to grow some kind of weed crops that might be possible to process to produce needed chemicals.

Currently for Mars I am considering the bulk implementation of "Farms" that host Antarctic and perhaps also Artic creatures, probably green plant life for the most part.

Mars has very effective permafrost, so to a large degree it might be possible to have permafrost under the structure shown, as impermeable to leaking water. The likely best formation would be in the form of a canal. I am not seeing such a "Canal" as being so much for the transportation of good, (Although it might), but to allow robots to swim or crawl in it and groom the interior to a profit.

The water in 'B' being subjected to a low atmospheric pressure should have only a small quantity of gasses dissolved into it. The ice formed should be rather clear. However, it should also be possible to melt the ice periodically to reform the ice window, if it deteriorates in quality.

The air pressure in 'A' is dependent on the actual exterior air pressure, and then also is potentially added to by the pressure that might be imposed in 'A" greater than that, using some pumping method to pressurize it.

If the water temperature of 'B' is below 0 degrees C, then it is likely that that waters evaporation/boiling can be minimized.

But if the materials of the construction would tolerate it, then the pressure in 'A', 'B', and 'C" can be increased. And then in that case higher temperatures may be tolerated for living things that prefer it as their environment.

So, the organic route could be a pathway to fuels, and Oxygen.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-08 12:16:01)

Void · 2022-12-08 12:17:13

Returning to this diagram:

I can imagine a "SpaceSuit" which is actually an AquaSuit, suitable for these farm canals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JIM_suit# … p%20diving.
Picture Quote: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ … Museum.jpg

But we are not likely to use it for pressures greater than 1 bar, although it is not ruled out. And it might go into a Martian atmospheric Vacuum on occasions. But the "Hard Suit" probably can be made much lighter that the depicted device, and the hands will likely have more liberty. But it should be capable of hosting a human in sub 0 water temperatures, and also more temperate, maybe even hot water temperatures in a solar pond.

So, you might move though aquatic gardens in canals. But often robots and telepresence might also be used.

There are various manipulations of the canal method where the bottom water could above 0 degrees C in temperature. Even just a little bit would guarantee that gardens in the bottom would not experience frost, and so be "Tropical" in that sense. (As tropical as some of the bottom waters of the polar seas.

But, if you are going to have 20,000 leagues under the sea suit, why not Nemo's gardens?

http://www.nemosgarden.com/

They have open bottom transparent diving bell gardens, but I can imagine barges with transparent tops hosting aquatic or traditional crops.

These could be moved in and out of processing facilities, to be placed in the sunlight. In the diagram I indicate an exterior mirror to help being sunlight, but it would also be possible to have underwater mirrors to concentrate the sunlight.

So, in these gardens without heaters, it is likely that the temperatures could rise to a suitable value during the day, and would not experience frost at night.

The canal systems could be gridiron, or a series of connected toroid. Also of course linear canals as well to connect networks.

Ice Sheets on Mars: Query: "Ice slabs on Mars"
General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Ice+slabs … 2c74d4a7af

https://www.space.com/30502-mars-giant- … y-mro.html

Now if these canal grids have energy pyramids, then you might extend your network all the way to the poles eventually and rehydrate from the condensation.

But near the poles you might want "Cones", and a solar panel robot that can pivot around the cones to follow the sun.

Now, can a guarantee that these methods would be good enough to be self-perpetuating, that is yield a surplus of wealth sufficient to allow the maintenance, establishment, and starting of such things, no.

But if that is the case then we should stay on the Earth, burn all the fossil fuels and descend back into the stone age.

Maybe in spite of Yoda's advice, we might try.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-10 16:02:31)

Void · 2022-12-10 15:10:36

I am interested now in expanding on the utilization of natural raw materials, including elevation differences.

I am going to draw some materials from another topic: "Index» Life support systems» Caves as Initial Footholds on Mars", Post #25.

The reason I do this is although I might like to post at times to things like that, I do not want to smother it in materials, which would displace the other members, and perhaps take is off track. So, quote:

I have just made a fair attempt to review your provided materials in the last few posts. I would like to try to contribute, as I think much good has been provided, and Mars likely has a lot to offer in this type of activity. If it appears that I am driving other members away, then let me know, I can fade more into the background.
Query: "Sedimentary rocks on Mars"
Query: "Rocks on Mars:: Basalt, Shale, Sandstone Conglomerate"
https://geology.com/stories/13/rocks-on-mars/
Quote:
Rocks on Mars
A variety of rock types and sediments have been found on Mars.
Many are similar to rocks on Earth.
Where Mars does not offer forests, it seems possible that it has been laying down layers in places for the life of the planet. This of course is different than the Earth where plate tectonics recycles the crust.
Billions of years of sedimentation is something very different.
Per its name insight has to some insights to offer: https://www.space.com/mars-subsurface-m … ent%20lava.
Quote:
NASA Mars lander makes 1st ever map of Red Planet underground by listening to winds
By Tereza Pultarova published November 23, 2021
The sound of wind reveals details of Martian subsurface.
Image Quote: https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/BmXUQ … 200-80.jpg
Quote:
The surprising sedimentary layer, the origin of which is still a mystery, is located 100 to 230 feet (30 to 70 m) below the Martian surface, sandwiched between two solidified layers of ancient lava.
The layer above the upper lava layer, is apparently not well cemented, and does not display much water/ice.
In a way, that could be good as it might be relatively easy to get down to the top lava layer.
Quote:
The researchers compared the two lava layers embracing this sediment with previous studies of geology of nearby craters. This data enabled them to place the origins of those layers into two important periods in Mars' geological history some 1.7 billion and 3.6 billion years ago.
On top of the younger lava layer, just below the surface regolith, is an approximately 50-feet-thick (15 m) band of rocky material likely stirred up from the Martian surface by a past meteorite impact that then rained back down to the planet's surface.
So, I think that some methods exhibited by the other members to get though the top layer and also the 1.7-billion-year-old lava layer would be good. Then once through, perhaps the sediment layer could be carved, still leaving plenty of supports to hold up the upper lava layer.
What is between the two lava layers, is unknown, but perhaps some of it is sandstone.
Query: "Cutting sandstone blocks"
General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Cutting+s … 232b4adac6
Specific Response: https://www.hunker.com/13401265/tips-fo … -sandstone
Quote:
Tips for How to Cut Sandstone
By CHRIS DEZIEL, BUILDING CONTRACTOR
Updated SEPTEMBER 3, 2022
Quote:
Sandstone is mined from quarries and delivered in slabs and bricks of varying thicknesses. If you want to use it for a home project, you'll have to cut it at some point, and there are two ways to do this. One is with a hammer and bolster chisel, and the other way is to use a saw. A slab saw is recommended, although a table saw or worm-drive circular saw will also work. In all instances, you need a diamond cutting blade.
So, not only to make a space underground, but perhaps to also make slabs and bricks, and perhaps some other things out of the materials removed.
Of course, not all of Mars will be like what is under the insight lander, and that is a good thing, so that other things might be employed and created.
I think this is enough from me for a bit.
Done.

There are many places, the Mariner Rift Valley, crater rims, the edges of the polar ice caps, or of ice sheets perhaps.
But I will return to Korolev Crater for now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korolev_(Martian_crater)
Image Quote: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ … crater.jpg
By looking at the interior rim, you can see where more sunlight has impinged (South Facing), relative to the portion which shows frost, and is presumed to get less sunlight.

We typically shy away from the polar areas, as with Earth, these have less energy delivered from the sun, at least in the winter. Mars is seasonal, similar to Earth, but the atmosphere is thinner, so it may not absorb as much sunlight as that of the Earth, so the attenuation at high latitudes may be less.

I have also been considering the dogma established in the United States, calling one part the Sunbelt and the other the Rustbelt. That was to some degree trickery, to get industry to move to other states. It had some merit at the time. It is true that snow and cold were expenses in the "Rust Belt".

The emerging technology of seasonal thermal storage may come to reduce that importance. And the placement of water matters in both worlds. In the case of topography, things like crater rims are potential energy centers, and if the crater has abundant water available, then this is also important.

Here is a sort of diagram of a potential use of the Crater:

Dark brown is that which is outside the depression of the crater.
Light brown is that part of the inner rim which more faces south.
Grey is that part of the inner rim which more faces north.
The blue line is where enclosures for greenhouses might be suggested. There could also be power towers there as well.
I could be that the south part of the blue line would not be developed.
The light brown area could host solar panels, and heliostat mirrors. Reflected light could be shined as a concentration to the blue line. Also microwave transmitters drawing power from the solar panels might project power to the blue line.
Of course, wire conductors might be an option as well.

And the blue line could of course host things like this:
Returning to this diagram:
(See from post #657 to here for more information on this diagram)

Since with heliostats we could concentrate sunlight to these, and if we wished we could heat water also with electricity, or microwaves, we might store heat in these as solar salt ponds, in the area of 'C'..

I have included these before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_pond

Quote:

Efficiency
The energy obtained is in the form of low-grade heat of 70 to 80 °C compared to an assumed 20 °C ambient temperature. According to the second law of thermodynamics (see Carnot-cycle), the maximum theoretical efficiency of a cycle that uses heat from a high temperature reservoir at 80 °C and has a lower temperature of 20 °C is 1−(273+20)/(273+80)=17%. By comparison, a power plant's heat engine delivering high-grade heat at 800 °C would have a maximum theoretical limit of 73% for converting heat into useful work (and thus would be forced to divest as little as 27% in waste heat to the cold temperature reservoir at 20 °C). The low efficiency of solar ponds is usually justified with the argument that the 'collector', being just a plastic-lined pond, might potentially result in a large-scale system that is of lower overall levelised energy cost than a solar concentrating system.

But Mars being what it is, ambient can be quite a lot less than 20 degrees C, with some work. It might even be that the ice block inside the crater could have tubing embedded into it, so that the average temperature of it would serve as the heat sink. Very likely that ice would not melt. You might need a hydrocarbon fluid though.

But of course I have already allowed for electricity from the solar panels on the rim, and perhaps from Geo storage.

And I have not excluded nuclear as a possible option..

The water in 'C' might be harsh for life but it is not an impossible thing. But you would likely have floatable enclosures filled with what you wanted to fill them with. The water column might have temperatures of below 0 C to 80 C. The saltiness would be somewhat challenging to life, but again you would have floating barge enclosures that you could situate at the right temperature you desired, and to have a more correct internal environment for your crops.

You could have very large diving bells filled with air that you could move these barges into for planting, maintenance, and harvesting.

Lake Vaneda is a natural lake that has some of these features: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Vanda
Quote:

Lake Vanda is a lake in Wright Valley, Victoria Land, Ross Dependency, Antarctica. The lake is 5 km (3.1 mi) long and has a maximum depth of 69 m (226 ft).[2] On its shore, New Zealand maintained Vanda Station from 1968 to 1995. Lake Vanda is a hypersaline lake with a salinity more than ten times that of seawater[3] and more than the salinity of the Dead Sea. Lake Vanda is also meromictic, which means that the deeper waters of the lake don't mix with the shallower waters.[4] There are three distinct layers of water ranging in temperature from 23 °C (73 °F) on the bottom to the middle layer of 7 °C (45 °F) and the upper layer ranges from 4–6 °C (39–43 °F).[5] It is only one of the many saline lakes in the ice-free valleys of the Transantarctic Mountains. The longest river of Antarctica, Onyx River, flows west, inland, into Lake Vanda. There is a meteorological station at the mouth of the river.

Ice-covered Lake Vanda with Onyx River in the right foreground
The lake is covered by a transparent ice sheet 3.5–4 metres (11–13 ft) year-round, though melting in late December forms a moat out to approximately 50 metres (160 ft) from the shore. The surface of the ice is not covered with snow and is "deeply rutted with cracks and melt lines".[5] During the colder months, the moat refreezes.
While no species of fish live in Lake Vanda or the Onyx River, microscopic life, such as cyanobacteria algal blooms, have been recorded. Due to the concerns over impact to the natural environment that may occur during research, scientific diving operations are limited to work in the upper layer (above 30 metres (98 ft)) and remotely operated underwater vehicle use is not allowed.[5]

The algae growth in the upper waters is impeded by lack of nutrients. Also the ice is not as efficient at letting light through as an artificial setup on Mars could be.

Also with heliostats on the inner crater rim, it will be possible to concentrate light to these, to make up for attenuation issues passing though ice and water to get to the algae or to the crops in the barges.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-13 19:32:12)

Void · 2022-12-11 13:17:56

I wish to work on this a bit:

For this, the dome has at least 1/3 bar air pressure in it. The water column may add more should humans need to escape the dome due to a leak of poisoned atmosphere. The diving bells at the bottom could be entered, and then there would be a further means of exit to the undergrounds.

So, then sort of a water column with perhaps some type of aquatic crop in it. Of course, it does not eliminate all hazards, but may give options to survival.

I guess if there are any questions, I might answer them later.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-13 19:52:16)

Void · 2022-12-12 14:23:52

This from: "Index» Life support systems» Caves as Initial Footholds on Mars", Post #38.
Has some really good Maps:

That seems like valuable input kdb512.
------
There is apparently at least one salt dome on Mars: http://martinhovland.weebly.com/mars.ht … sists%20of
Quote:
At the foot of the giant Hebes Mensa salt dome on
Mars, there is a feature called the "Oil Spill" (Adams
et al., 2009). But, ccording to Adams et al., it consists of
liquid brines that have been coloured black by dark dust particles.
However, - this is not be true.
Image Quote: http://martinhovland.weebly.com/uploads … 256672.jpg
I see no value in arguing the case for or against oil on Mars at this time. But we may know a place to check, and that place appears to have a salt dome.
Having notions of where there may have been seas on Mars, gives a notion of where else salt domes might possibly exist.
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=se … HoverTitle
Image Quote: https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.48c6dcee931 … ImgRaw&r=0
That is a very good Mars map.
In the North and Hellas, for the most part I suppose. But the Mariner Rift Valley may have been part of a northern sea, which may be why there appears to be a salt dome there.
Just possibly the recently discovered volcanic possibilities for Mars, may include salt domes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elysium_( … -7.5%C2%B0.
Quote:
Elysium, located in the Elysium and Cebrenia quadrangles,[1] is the second largest volcanic region on Mars, after Tharsis[2].[note 1] The region includes the volcanoes (from north to south) Hecates Tholus, Elysium Mons and Albor Tholus.[3] The province is centered roughly on Elysium Mons at 24.7°N 150°E. Elysium Planitia is a broad plain to the south of Elysium, centered at 3.0°N 154.7°E.[4] Another large volcano, Apollinaris Mons, lies south of Elysium Planitia and is not part of the province. Besides having large volcanoes, Elysium has several areas with long trenches, called fossa or fossae (plural) on Mars. They include the Cerberus Fossae, Elysium Fossae, Galaxias Fossae, Hephaestus Fossae, Hyblaeus Fossae, Stygis Fossae and Zephyrus Fossae.
Perhaps lava tubes and sedimentary rock layers as well in the region.
Done.
I like to understand where stuff is: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Cerberus+ … 5425faf582
Image Quote: https://www.dlr.de/content/en/images/20 … normal&v=4
So, an ancient sea floor, and possibly new volcanism.
Geothermal perhaps.
Done.

These two maps as image quotes from the above are very helpful.
Big Picture: https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.48c6dcee931 … ImgRaw&r=0
Drill Down: https://www.dlr.de/content/en/images/20 … normal&v=4

The geothermal region apparently has been pushed up "1 Mile?" by a newer volcanic plume, so it might have been lower when an ocean was there. And so maybe salt domes.

If you could hollow out a salt dome in warm rock, that might be worth something.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-17 20:28:27)

Void · 2022-12-12 14:33:19

I wish to elaborate on this a bit:

While I have not shown it, there could be tunnels that allow a "Dry" passage of humans into the dome from the undergrounds. These of course would need security and pressure blocking doors.

So, the dry route might be the normal route up and down.
But the wet route might allow mass evacuation in emergency situations.

Where I have suggested a dome, in reality it might be a substantial structure with some windows. We might consider Dr. Johnson's "Mushroom House".

For sufficient lighting mirrors on the outside might be used, and also interior artificial lights when possible and desired.

So, this might be a relatively well protected area, where people could hang out. In fact, a family might have one,
or some might be for office space where telepresence operators hang out during working hours. Maybe some would be like public parks.

Ideally these basins could be carved into a rock like sandstone.

The pools might even so both grow aquatic crops and be for swimming.
Crops could be potted perhaps, and or moved out of the way for swimming, and otherwise deployed for growth.

I do have Hydrilla in mind, but there can be many others.

The waters could be kept warm, so as to promote evaporation and the "Dome" would perform as a condenser.

So, the water gathered might be for many uses. How to handle the wastewater? Well, I won't elaborate, perhaps it flows down to a cave to be processed, in the worst cases. Perhaps bathing water can go directly into the reservoir.

As for plant matter such as Hydrilla, it will of course produce Oxygen.

Also, it could be harvested and frozen for future use.

Also, it could produce Methane in a digester.

Also, it could be subjected to pyrolysis to produce oil and charcoal, perhaps.

Of course, if sugars were produced, then fermentation could yield alcohol.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-12 20:19:09)

Void · 2022-12-12 20:47:45

I guess I will do some activity here. I don't want to carpet bomb the other topics:

https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com … epressions.
Quote:

The honeycomb terrain on the Hellas basin floor, Mars: A case for salt or ice diapirism

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio … hasma_Mars
Quote:

Salt Diapirs in Candor Chasma, Mars?
February 2000

https://www.livescience.com/water-found-beneath-mars
Quote:

Data beamed back from the Trace Gas Orbiter's (TGO) Fine-Resolution Epithermal Neutron Detector (FREND) instrument found unusually high levels of hydrogen, which alongside oxygen makes up water, at a site called Candor Chaos

So, there may be several places to consider placing settlements, other than Korolev Crater and Cerberus Fossae. But those two of course remain important, I think.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-12 20:53:03)

Void · 2022-12-13 12:23:03

I am going to attempt to work with three previous diagrams. The hope is that they will help to bring a strong economy to Mars.

Here is a sort of diagram of a potential use of the Crater:
This one imagines a crater which is sort of like a sports arena, where in the bleachers will be heliostat mirrors and solar panels, to provide concentrated energy to the blue line area.

The inverse might also be practiced. For Mt. Sharp, the mirrors could be in the crater bottom or on the mountain. The target could be a point at a different elevation.

So, topography of differing elevations, may be assistive in the creation of energy concentration at desirable locations. I used Korolev crater as the model, and some day perhaps it will have such implementations.

Korolev is special as it has an internal condensation process which caused the ice sheet in it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korolev_(Martian_crater)

But I am moving towards the notion that if water can be conveyed to other craters, and perhaps some other landforms, what I have suggested could be done in those.

The craters are a gift from the ages, if this is true.

I want to consider if "Gale Crater" could be "Hydrated". Methods I can think of at this time:
1) Water from aquifers?
2) Water piped in?
3) Shade water?

Gale Crater: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gale_(crater)
Image Quote: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ … Crater.jpg

A possible resource in the crater is the dune materials: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagnold_D … rth%20year.
Image Quote: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ … r_Mars.jpg
As a mineral resource: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ore_resources_on_Mars
Quote:

Dark sand dunes are common on the surface of Mars. Their dark tone is due to the volcanic rock called basalt. The basalt dunes are believed to contain the minerals chromite, magnetite, and ilmenite.[54] Since the wind has gathered them together, they do not even have to be mined, merely scooped up.[55] These minerals could supply future colonists with chromium, iron, and titanium.

The reason that ice collects at the poles on both Earth and Mars, is humidity tends to be drawn to condense in cold areas.

With its current axis, low latitudes get more sunshine than high latitudes, so low latitude regolith is warmer, I presume.

But, what if we shade the regolith in Gale Crater from some of the sunlight, and yet allow the night sky to look at that same regolith?

One method might be vertical solar panels, another would be heliostats. Heliostats are obvious.
Here is a nice article about vertical solar panels: https://cleantechnica.com/2022/07/25/ne … rformance/
Image Quote: https://cleantechnica.com/files/2022/07 … panels.jpg
Quote:

But what if conventional wisdom is wrong? Researchers at Leipzig University of Applied Sciences claim that mounting bifacial solar panels with one side facing east and the other facing west would produce more renewable electricity and reduce one of the side effects of traditional solar energy farms — an abundance of electricity at midday and not enough in the morning or afternoon. Their study was published in the August, 2022 edition of the journal Smart Energy.

So, if solar panels can absorb and reject sufficient energy, the ground they are planted on may drop in temperature enough to be as attractive to water as other places at high latitude where water can condense as ice.

On Mars we do not have to contend with strong wind pressures, and I think that a vertical orientation will be easier to keep clean from dust deposits as well. And the panels anchored to the ground will even remove some heat from the ground at night through conduction.

The efficiency of solar panels: https://www.solar.com/learn/solar-panel … cy%20range.

So, solar panels can remove a smaller portion of the energy of the sunlight as electricity, which I presume is a cooling action for the ground below. The panels however should be able to radiate infrared radiation and also even with the thin atmosphere, of Mars, for vertical panels, dry convection cooling should occur.

Normally the sunlight, and in particular, the high energy U.V. should heat the regolith surface and draw off any moisture. With shading, this process should be reduced. While we might not want the expense of motor oriented solar panels, it might be possible that robots might move the solar panels on a seasonal basis, to get the best results. Maybe.

While it is tempting to suggest a reflective foil to be placed on the ground, if frost can be condensed and maintained, that might do almost as much to reject light to the panels, and to the universe.

So, Gale Crater being near the equator, this process might also be implemented at higher latitudes, and might work even better there.

It might even be true that to do it for the ice body in Korolev Crater would attract even more condensation to the crater than is now existing, (I think). Heliostats might be a better bet for that one.

At such latitudes then, seasonal energy is likely, and heat could be stored in the crater rim regolith. The ice itself can serve as a radiator, where you would embed tubing into the ice, and flow a hydrocarbon fluid in them. Of course, the objective is to not evaporate the ice permanently.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-13 13:12:13)

Calliban · 2022-12-13 16:20:57

This is very interesting.
https://pubs.geoscienceworld.org/eg/art … ossibility

If we do find natural gas and oil on Mars, then making fuel, plastics and steel will be much simpler.

Void · 2022-12-13 19:25:48

Calliban. Good stuff. I guess rather than to argue with experts I do not know who will likely swear that petroleum is not possible on Mars, the best thing to do is keep an open mind, and if a chance offers itself, look of evidence of Hydrocarbons.

If they did exist, I agree that that would be very helpful. That and the Perchlorates that we do know exist.

If no Hydrocarbons, then I suggest synthesizing them from aquatic plants, as I believe that that is a possible farming method that may produce wealth.

Done

Void · 2022-12-13 19:32:49

Returning to this diagram:

There could be several different variations of this, not all would have cold water in 'C', and it is possible that some would not have 'B'.

I am interested in bulk farming, aquatic farming, and likely the farming of Hydrilla.

These might be grown inside of "Barges", with a transparent top. They would float in 'C'.

In growing they would give off Oxygen, and so that might be stored by some means.

But the plants can be stockpiled as frozen biomass.

They can of course provide a dietary supplement, but I am interested also in getting fuels from the biomass.

I suppose it might actually be possible to dry them out so that they could be burned.

But otherwise, fermentation might yield alcohols. I don't know if Hydrilla can be fermented to produce alcohol. But if so, the residual could be further processed by a bioreactor or pyrolysis, I suspect.

or a bioreactor could convert the biomass to Methane and CO2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioreactor
Methane and Oxygen are of course propellants. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioreactor_landfill

or High heat could create oils out of the biomass. Pyrolysis. That might also make charcoal out of it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrolysis_oil
Bio Tar would probably have use on Mars.

So, several forms of energy that can be stored.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrilla

The Hydrilla would need nutrients, so I guess that is a problem needing solving. I am sure there are ways.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-13 19:51:09)

Void · 2022-12-13 19:55:44

These will probably start off as small:
I wish to work on this a bit:

Eventually perhaps bigger versions. I include the idea of vegetation as it will sooth the soul, I expect, and the aquatic stuff will help to purify the water basin. People swimming in it would leave some organic matter.

And I hope this device can earn it's pay by being a distillation device. No boiling water, but evaporation and then condensation on the upper parts, the condensate to be collected.

These upper sun chambers might be very good to have on top of an underground habitat complex.

I have described these also in previous posts.

Done.

Calliban · 2022-12-14 10:17:25

Void, that is an interesting idea. Because habitats on Mars will have trapped air volumes, it is a good idea to incorporate a mechanism to dampen any internal pressure fluctuations. If the air volume is entirely trapped in an inflexible container, then anything that causes pressure to fluctuate will eventually cause stress fractures to grow in tensile components. A water column allows pressure cycles to be dampened.

Void · 2022-12-14 11:51:16

That is an interesting observation. I had not thought of that.

The concept needs further development, but I am rather happy with it so far. I will have to mull over your observation and think how to improve things without removing that pressure damping feature.

While some of these might be public, I would also like to consider that some might allow for personal space, as if a part of an apartment.

I do want a "Dry" pathway into and out, but not a formal air lock. I feel a formal air lock might be too expensive. Perhaps weighted doors that close gravitationally, and which have a good enough seal so that if there is an atmosphere problem in the device, the undergrounds would be sufficiently protected to allow for a sensible response by appropriate further methods.

The air passage that goes from the reservoir bottom might have the same, but perhaps also a pneumatic tube that would allow the equalization you have approved as useful. That tube might have an automatic electromagnetic valve and a manual valve for emergencies.

In the event of a fire or poison in the dome, the response would be different than a depressurization event.

A depressurization event "may" allow humans to remain conscious long enough to jump down into the water and be pressurized by water column, and then to swim down to the diving bell for air to breath, and then to proceed to a further safety method.

If the leak is smaller that might work. But a sudden depressurization might lead to unconsciousness and a lack of ability to seek protection.

Of course, eventually the top of the water column would freeze, most likely, but if you were still in the "Dome" you would already be well on your way to dead.

That is how a currently visualize the potential situations. But trying to get a bunch of people out through expensive airlocks in time would likely be even worse.

The water in the tank might be kept fairly warm, so would help keep a harder vacuum out for a little while. Of course, for fire jumping in the water would have obvious advantages. I don't know what might burn, seems foolish to have things that would burn, but who knows what the economics would be.

While I indicated submerged pond weeds, there might alternately be floating plants.

Anyway, the notion can possibly be improved with accumulation of new features or better features over time.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-14 12:08:20)

Void · 2022-12-15 12:25:58

At this time members are working in two places on underground mining and habitat ideas.

Here I want to complement that with some library of some of the possible places to do that. I want to limit my speculation, rather just get more a list of information.

Resources are variable, but I would imagine that water resources are important and rock qualities might matter, among other things. Latitude can be important as well. Energy sources will also be important as well.

There are several major areas to consider.

1) Valles Marinaris:

-These articles speculate on "Fossil Ice", of great magnitudes/quantities to still exist in the canyon:
https://planetarygeomorphology.wordpres … eris-mars/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 5X13004145
https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/O … dc3481cd74
-This is very amusing at this point; they definitely speak against glaciation in Candor Chaos: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 3517308333
-But then we get to this, (Water detection probability): https://www.cnet.com/science/spacecraft … be%20water.
And this: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne … 180979267/

2) Cerberus Fossae: (Possible Geothermal):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerberus_Fossae
https://www.esa.int/ESA_Multimedia/Imag … in_context
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 3522004353

3) Mid Latitude Ice Slabs:

Here is a search, which gives images of ice slabs:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=mi … HoverTitle
https://mars.nasa.gov/resources/3179/gl … s-of-mars/
Quote:
March 02, 2010
A radar on NASA's Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter has detected widespread deposits of glacial ice in the mid-latitudes of Mars.
This map of a region known as Deuteronilus Mensae, in the northern hemisphere, shows locations of the detected ice deposits in blue. The yellow lines indicate ground tracks of the radar observations from multiple orbits of the spacecraft.
The ice, up to 1 kilometer (0.6 mile) thick, is found adjacent to steep cliffs and hillsides, where rocky debris from slopes covers and protects the ice from sublimation into the atmosphere.
Picture Quote: https://mars.nasa.gov/system/resources/ … -full2.jpg
Here is a general response to my query: "Mid Latitude Ice Slabs on Mars": https://www.bing.com/search?q=Mid+Latit … bc19df0720
And this is for people like me, a bit less sciency in capabilities: https://www.space.com/30502-mars-giant- … ts%20added.
Quotee:
A giant slab of ice as big as California and Texas combined lurks just beneath the surface of Mars between its equator and north pole, researchers say.
This ice may be the result of snowfall tens of millions of years ago on Mars, scientists added.

Quote:
The ice the scientists found measures 130 feet (40 m) thick and lies just beneath the dirt, or regolith, or Mars.
"It extends down to latitudes of 38 degrees. This would be like someone in Kansas digging in their backyard and finding ice as thick as a 13-story building that covers an area the size of Texas and California combined," Bramson said.
Picture quote: https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/y8wdk … 0.jpg.webp

4) High Latitude Ice.

Among this group is "Korolev Crater", which is of interest:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korolev_(Martian_crater)
Image Quote: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ … crater.jpg
And Glaciers in Hellas:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellas_Planitia
Quote:
Possible glaciers
Tongue-shaped glacier in Hellas Planitia. Ice may still exist there beneath an insulating layer of soil.
Close-up of glacier with a resolution of about 1 meter. The patterned ground is believed to be caused by the presence of ice.
Radar images by the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter (MRO) spacecraft's SHARAD radar sounder suggest that features called lobate debris aprons in three craters in the eastern region of Hellas Planitia are actually glaciers of water ice lying buried beneath layers of dirt and rock.[15] The buried ice in these craters as measured by SHARAD is about 250 m (820 ft) thick on the upper crater and about 300 m (980 ft) and 450 m (1,480 ft) on the middle and lower levels respectively. Scientists believe that snow and ice accumulated on higher topography, flowed downhill, and is now protected from sublimation by a layer of rock debris and dust. Furrows and ridges on the surface were caused by deforming ice.
Also, the shapes of many features in Hellas Planitia and other parts of Mars are strongly suggestive of glaciers, as the surface looks as if movement has taken place.

5) High polar ice deposits including the ice caps. Eventually since the water condenses here at this time more than anywhere else a Martian civilization might wish to tap these for "Makeup Water".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martian_polar_ice_caps
Picture Quote, North: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ … ar_cap.jpg
Picture Quote, South: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ … r_2000.jpg

Done

Last edited by Void (2022-12-15 13:17:49)

Void · 2022-12-15 14:19:15

I think I am going to get interested in lighting specifically.

Both sunlight methods and artificial light methods. Of course, there is often a desire to go to a binary Proto ape like contest for one to kill and eat the other. But I believe in exercising the technologies and not killing and eating things fresh out of the nursery.

So, recently I have been working with natural, but possibly modified light. For now, I am going to take a look at artificial lighting, which commonly could be in caves or underwater or in diving bell like structures in water.

Query: "Underwater Lighting methods"
General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Underwate … cdf5cf4a5a

Well, it needs consideration and work, but I have to move to something else just now.

Pending.............

Continuing:

A member showed this to me some time back. It is a wonderful thing. And it appears that a person of merit with intentions towards Mars is involved. A wonderful article.

https://www.centauri-dreams.org/2020/05 … -for-mars/
Quote:

Sublake Settlements for Mars
by PAUL GILSTER on MAY 29, 2020
Terraforming a world is a breathtaking task, one often thought about in relation to making Mars into a benign environment for human settlers. But there are less challenging alternatives for providing shelter to sustain a colony. As Robert Zubrin explains in the essay below, ice-covered lakes are an option that can offer needed resources while protecting colonists from radiation. The founder of the Mars Society and author of several books and numerous papers, Zubrin is the originator of the Mars Direct concept, which envisions exploration using current and near-term technologies. We’ve examined many of his ideas on interstellar flight, including magsail braking and the nuclear salt water rocket concept, in these pages. Now president of Pioneer Astronautics, Zubrin’s latest book is The Case for Space: How the Revolution in Spaceflight Opens Up a Future of Limitless Possibility, recently published by Prometheus Books.
by Robert Zubrin

I am not anti-nuclear, so his version of such ideas are just fine with me:

I believe so. Let us examine the problem by considering an example.
Korolev is an ice-filled impact crater in the Mare Boreum quadrangle of Mars, located at 73° north latitude and 165° east longitude (Fig. 1). It is 81.4 kilometers in diameter and contains about 2,200 cubic kilometers of water ice, similar in volume to Great Bear Lake in northern Canada. Why not use a nuclear reactor to melt the water under the ice to create a huge ice-covered lake?

And he actually does math which could be useful to Calliban.

Quote:

Assuming that the ice cover is reduced to less than 30 meters, there will be enough natural light during daytime to support phytoplankton growth, as has been observed in the Earth’s Arctic ocean [5]. The lake’s primary biological productivity could be greatly augmented, however, by the addition of artificial light.

Now, I am onto something perhaps related but a bit different and perhaps merging with Callibans current work with sandstone and other mining. So he is apparently working with rock structures, and I wish to as well: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 75#p204175

I guess I will try a drawing first. Need to make it..............

My software is misbehaving so this will have to do:

The idea is to have a water reservoir in a cone shaped vault in high quality sandstone.

Employing salt gradients like in a solar salt pond or some Antarctic Dry Valley lakes, this could serve as a heat storage reservoir.

With the potential of hot water and also then heated rock at the bottom, while the top would be more mildly salty and could be sub-freezing. This then allows a window through which concentrate solar light can be passed.

The window needs only to divide the Martian atmosphere from a just slightly higher-pressure gas mixture above the water surface.

If the bottom is too hot, of course it would only allow some extreme organisms if any. So, you would need to define what you would want to do with a particular instance of this device.

I did not label it or draw it well, but there is a white diving bell structure on the wall in the water with a white tunnel.

If we should wish to we could put artificial lights in the diving bell, to promote photosynthesis and to provide light to see by.

The efficiency to generate electricity and then make artificial lights and then to grow organisms is considered in-efficient.

However, I note that the waste heat goes into the cone vaults water, and we are going to want to generate electricity with that heat using a radiator. (More about a radiator later).

So, perhaps the process is not as inefficient as might be supposed.

So, a system of caverns with these light cones might be a thing to consider.

I guess I will call this, a hollow upright cone: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 82#p204182

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-16 20:57:56)

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