Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Void · 2022-10-23 13:12:15

Dust Storms?

If it is decided to alter Mars as much as I have speculated, then dust can be captured and put into a lake to become sediments. Dust can actually tend to warm a planet, I understand, but we might want a cold planet with lots of imported microwave, and perhaps mirror energy.

Done.

Void · 2022-10-23 18:43:47

I am very interested in this major asteroid / possible dwarf planet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_Hygiea … and%20mass.

We know a bit about Ceres, and Vesta.

Pallas is in an inclined orbit so hard to reach.

16 Psyche is interesting as it may have a relatively high metal content, but not sure that is so important. I would think that Hygea may have metals along with a good distribution of raw materials.

OK, I like this article about it: https://www.spacereference.org/asteroid … ea-a849-ga
Quote:

Hygiea
10 Hygiea (A849 GA)
Jupiter
Saturn
Uranus
Neptune
Hygiea
Space Reference » Main-belt Asteroids » Hygiea
Key Facts
Categorized as a Main-belt Asteroid
Comparable in size to the U.S. state of Iowa (407.12 km diameter)
Not a Near Earth Object
Not a Potentially Hazardous Object
See orbit simulation
Overview
Hygiea is a dwarf planet orbiting between Mars and Jupiter in the main portion of the asteroid belt. NASA JPL has not classified Hygiea as potentially hazardous because its orbit does not bring it close to Earth.
Hygiea orbits the sun every 2,030 days (5.56 years), coming as close as 2.79 AU and reaching as far as 3.49 AU from the sun. Hygiea is about 407.1 kilometers in diameter, making it one of the largest objects, comparable in size to the U.S. state of Iowa.
The rotation of Hygiea has been observed. It completes a rotation on its axis every 13.83 hours.
Hygiea's spectral type C (Tholen) / C (SMASSII) indicates that it is likely to contain water, iron, nickel, cobalt, nitrogen, and ammonia.
No Close Approaches
Hygiea's orbit is 1.78 AU from Earth's orbit at its closest point. This means that there is an extremely wide berth between this asteroid and Earth at all times.
Orbital simulations conducted by NASA JPL's CNEOS do not show any close approaches to Earth.
Images and Observations
Hygiea's orbit is determined by observations dating back to May 26, 1849. It was last officially observed on July 3, 2022. The IAU Minor Planet Center records 3,761 observations used to determine its orbit.
Scientists have been able to determine this object's shape:

View asteroid Hygiea in 3D.
Accessibility and Exploration
This asteroid is not considered a viable target for human exploration by the NHATS study.
Similar Objects
These objects have orbits that share similar characteristics to the orbit of Hygiea:
24 Themis (A853 GA)
90 Antiope (A866 TA)
104 Klymene (A868 RB)
References
JPL Small Body Database
Mission Design
Sky Finder Chart

It is not considered for study. Maybe it is a bad choice by me.

I am not sure I trust what I read. It is confusing on the rotation of the object: https://www.astronomytrek.com/asteroid-facts-hygiea/

At any rate, I would like to imagine that at least one major asteroid would be accessed and settled. I would like to see a situation where habitat is inside the object, on its surface, and in orbits of it. I am hoping that the skills to do that may eventually translate in part to Mars.

It would be good if people on Mars could live below the surface, on the surface, and in orbits of Mars.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-10-23 19:01:53)

Void · 2022-10-24 14:15:28

OK, so I believe that it is true that it can be allowed to move extra energy to the surface of Earth from orbit without causing too much relative harm. It is indicated by Isaac Arthur that greenhouse gasses heat the planet more than sending extra energy to the surface. How true, I do not know, but I do believe that what you could do for Earth, you might do far more for Mars.

Orbital power for Mars, in orbit is not disrupted by weather. Same for Earth. Both however do have weather conditions which could interrupt energy transfers to a planetary surface.

What is true for Mars, is not as true for Earth, as far as capacity to receive a proportional value of imported energy from orbits. Simply in part because the Earth already has a larger input of solar energy. That is obvious.

Orbital solar for Mars should be treatable by concentrating mirrors, to make is pretty much as suitable to harvest as would be Earth orbital solar energy. But Mars itself has a much larger potential market for solar orbital > surface/subsurface.

I still hold as valid the options of some other members that nuclear fission should have a place in the mix, particularly in the startup, but still according to economic developments, perhaps also into the future of Mars.
A small amount of surface solar will have a place as well, even after large installations of orbital solar are deployed.

Moving into small worlds and asteroids, inside the orbit of Jupiter makes sense following that.

But then what about the places of Jupiter? Jupiter's Magnetosphere: https://www.missionjuno.swri.edu/jupite … %20Jupiter.

Of course, what I am getting at is that Callisto, the radiation is not too strong, but not great, as I understand it.

If there were an object worth taking apart to make worlds, I think Callisto could be such.

Calliban has speculated on artificial worlds composed of a large ball of ice. Isaac Arther has mentioned such as well.

While sunlight is attenuated by the time you get to Jupiter, the hill sphere and magnetosphere of the planet is very large, and so intersects a lot of photons. The concentrating mirror trick will still work there.

If the passive method of ice and water, and the magnetosphere are used together, then lots of radiation protection. But still as might be desired, the use of artificial magnetics might also be possible.

It is understood by the above and myself, and I presume others, that at the center of such a ice/water ball is microgravity, but also a planned hydraulic pressure. That could be 1 bar, +/- whatever.

These could be constructed to have minimal volatile losses. You rely on the mass of ice/water, to provide most of the pressurizing gravitation. Inside at the center, you may put a shell filled with air, if desired. You may then place synthetic gravity machines, using vacuum chambers or not, depending on the needed spin speed.

You might certainly put a low pressurized metal or glass shell around the whole of that world.

Near the surface would be an ice shell, under that just mentioned shell.

You may then have as many shells inside the water ball as you wanted. You may even have air filled diving bells in many places.

And then so from Callisto you might construct these, as many as desired, to perhaps reside inside of Jupiter's magnetosphere. You might actually mine down to the presumed thin ocean. Of course, you might care about possible life. That is a needed study. If you removed enough of the crust and mantle of Callisto, you might eventually have a rock core with an ocean over it, so that core could be mined, and then for ice you might move to Ganymede.

So, you see, that Jupiter holds a lot of promise.

I do as I have said hope that humans will come up with a means that common people will be able to more back and forth from Mars proper, to its orbits, and also to Earth and Jupiter, of course the Asteroids.

Done

Callisto: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callisto_(moon)
Picture Quote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callisto_ … iagram.svg

The crust may have metals and rock. Or else the Trojans and other asteroids may provide it. It may even be possible someday to turn IO into a giant power plant, and also extract minerals. But that is a real problem with radiation.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-10-24 15:18:39)

Void · 2022-10-24 16:29:33

That does leave the question of IO. Could it be utilized as a resource?

https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/moons/jupi … /overview/

Could the radiation be used to transmute anything?

Could the heat be harnessed?

Could it be mined?

Of course, the radiation is deadly to humans and pretty much their machines.

So, it is a thing go wonder about perhaps.

That's as far as I go for now.

Done.

Void · 2022-10-24 17:19:01

This is a nice presentation about IO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAd6w_2I_Tg

I am thinking that assistive propulsion methods could be connected to many solar and other energy sources, such as Lasser, Mass Driver, etc.

Done.

Void · 2022-10-24 18:03:57

I think this is very timely.

Just the right tool to unlock things: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Wow%21%21 … 2a&pc=U531
Quote:

WOW!! Cassiopeia solar power plant in space! ESA, UK seek to end the energy crisis!
4.6K views · 1 day ago
Save
YouTubeThe Angry Astronaut

Done

Void · 2022-10-25 11:46:13

So, I am of the opinion that when speaking of a world, you should include the gravity wells in their entirety as part of those worlds.

I think that going to a Dyson Sphere, perhaps is going too far, but to utilize the photon flux and solar wind in planetary hill spheres, makes a fair amount of sense.

Like others I wonder what can be accomplished with energy beaming, and mass drivers. The pre-positioning of assets.

Also, the communication of material objects to and from a surface to orbits.

While I think that Earth/Moon<>Mars<>Asteroids<>Jupiter are a natural progression to align to, eventually it would be a possibility to go to Venus, and simply suck the atmosphere into artificial habitats in orbit. Or at least it would be nice if humans and machines become skillful enough that they could do that if they wanted to.

So, possibly a good path.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-10-25 11:53:35)

Void · 2022-10-25 14:04:41

I stumbled into the clever works of some creators, and which to place it here. Others of course can feel free to collect it into their topics if they might so wish.

I feel rather stupid that I did not see this method, but I am so glad that these people did.

Query: "Researchers create Lunar regolith bricks that could be used to construct Artemus base camp"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Researche … be74a5df67

https://phys.org/news/2022-10-lunar-reg … esearchers.
Quote:

As part of NASA's Artemis program to establish a long-term presence on the moon, it aims to build an Artemis base camp that includes a modern lunar cabin, rover and mobile home. This fixed habitat could potentially be constructed with bricks made of lunar regolith and saltwater, thanks to a recent discovery from a team of UCF researchers.

https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/969083
Quote:

NEWS RELEASE 25-OCT-2022
UCF researchers create lunar regolith bricks that could be used to construct Artemis base camp
Using resources found in space to construct off-world structures can drastically reduce the need to transport building materials for programs like Artemis
Peer-Reviewed Publication
UNIVERSITY OF CENTRAL FLORIDA

Of course, Ceramics have their limits, but we use them on Earth along with other materials, so this is going to be great.

Binders that I am aware of are ice for Pykrete, plastics, and also of course clays. Salts is a new one to me.

So, they are definitely looking at these for use on world surfaces.

To me it looks like they may suit the orbits of Mars. Large mirrors should be possible to manufacture in the Earth/Moon system, and it should be possible to transport them to the Mars orbits, by various means. Possibly even sailing them to Mars orbits. This then, in part would give power supplies.

Salts should be obtainable to these locations, and also Hydrogen to be bonded to Oxygen to make water. For this process, I would imagine that the water would tend to be recycled to a large extent.

Because of the limits of ceramics, I would presume that they would be used in a structure(s) that also include other materials.

The materials of Phobos and Deimos then having Oxygen extracted for water, and also metals, the tailings could then make bricks.

This simply makes the idea of constructs in the Martian Hill Sphere more practical, I would think.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-10-25 14:19:47)

Void · 2022-10-26 20:16:50

Well today a thing occurred to me, not a giant thing but an item. I like trying to find loopholes in methods. I think I might have a possibility.

First of all, I try to reasonably conform to the teachings of my betters. So, I have to give a mention that the notion that a Mini-Starship would make things easier for refilling propellants on Mars. That came from Dr. Zubrin. SpaceX has not done that because they have too much to do with Starship as it is.

However, it turns out that Terran-R is in effect resembling a Mini-Starship.

The reason I feel this conversation can be OK in terraforming is that if you don't get a means to manipulate objects on to Mars, in a fashion that can expand as required in scale, then you would not be able to terraform.

I will simply give my current thinking and then why I think it has advantage, but not go into details on how I arrived at the notions.

I would like to consider the sending of pairs of pairs of ships. Each pair being one Starship, and one Mini-Starship.

One pair to go by Hohmann Transfer, the other by Ballistic Capture method. I think that this could have advantages.

I am going on an estimate of what may be actual available hardware say some time in the next 2 to10 years.

Santa could also give us a Nuclear Tug as well to send these things along.

1) The Ballistic Capture pair would have a Mini-Starship that is fully fueled even upon arrival to Mars. The way I think that this could be possible would be that it would be connected to the Starship partner and could reside in the shadow of that Starship. The Starship might have enough power to give active cooling to the Mini-Starship all the way to Mars. But that may not be necessary if the Mini-Starship is in the shadows the whole trip. So, doing this you would have a Starship will full header tanks, and a Mini-Starship primed to launch back to Earth. This collection would have supplies for the return to Earth as well, such as food and water method, Oxygen etc,

2) The Hohmann Transfer pair would also perhaps travel together, as if they carry crew, then you have two ships that might be able to land a crew. I don't think that this Mini-Starship would be fully filled all the way to Mars. It might be too heavy to land if it is fully filled. But it would have header tanks full, and the Starship would as well.

So, team #1 which would be uncrewed, most likely, would have much more permission on timing to launch to Mars Orbit. The Mini-Starship would not land on Mars at all except for an emergency contingency. The Starship on this team would not land on Mars most likely, until the Mini-Starship had headed back to Earth. When it did land, it would carry its solar panels down with it to be included in a power plant.

Team #2 would probably be timed so that in certain contingencies they could do a free return to Earth. In that case, in a best case they would have both ships with them, in a lesser case they could only ride one of the ships on the free return. In the case where things went well, and they were able to land on Mars the ships would land separately, but hopefully near each other and near some other cargo ships that had arrived before. It will be probable that the Starship will stay on the surface even after a departure back to Earth. The Mini-Starship would be used to carry humans up to the Team #1 assembly.

So, minimally the power to propellants plant would only have to provide enough propellants to get that #2 Mini-Starship up to Martian orbit, to the #1 assembly. Optimally, the #2 Mini-Starship would have also had its header tanks filled, so that it could land back on the Martian base uncrewed.

The crew would have transferred to the #1 Mini-Starship to prepare for a return to Earth. They could likely afford to linger in orbit for a little while to await the launch window. There would be extra consumables on the #1 Starship, and so they could linger a bit. As far as radiation they would have a fully filled Mini-Starship and a Starship to shield them.

I suppose in some type of emergency they could land the Mini-Starship to the Base on Mars, but that would be a deviation from plan only done to save lives in an emergency.

The reason I claim that this plan may be sensible is that it reduces even beyond what Dr. Zurbin intended the necessary size of the power to propellants plant. It will free up the crew to do more research on the surface to perhaps collect some samples, presuming the setup of the smaller propellant station is successful at the first.

It would be less of a death march situation where everything has to work perfect. There would be some room for problems to be overcome and some reasons to think that success could be more assured.

There is a difference between efficiency and capability. It will be true that this method may cost more, but it may be more productive.

As time would go by the power to propellants capability would improve to the point that even Starships could be refilled on the surface of Mars at the base camp.

It would be exciting to see other entities involved as well such as Rocket Lab for instance.

A collection of entities might make the thing work better, and the glory, if success were the case can be shared. There would be plenty of it.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-10-26 20:51:17)

Void · 2022-10-27 10:42:48

Relating to post #584, I feel the desire to elaborate, with more posting on its subparts.

The original SpaceX/Elon Musk plan includes only the Starship 1.0, I seem to recall, involves sending several supply ships prior to the first crewed ship, refilling the crew ship on Mars, and flying back to Earth. This has seemed so some to be a very tall order to manufacture so many propellants, after setting a fully functioning power to propellants manufacturing facility.

But I have deep respect for the plan, as it was more or less to say, "How can we hope to do this?". And so, they did come up with a plausible plan. But murphy's laws may apply.

Dr. Zubrin, as I seem to recall, suggested that a Mini-Starship might work better for the crew ship. But SpaceX does not have the strength to spread their material attention beyond the creation of Starship. That can easily be understood as sensible.

Terran-R might show up soon enough to participate in a crewed mission to Mars. It seems to me that it would be reasonable answer to the desire for a Mini-Starship.

So, I suggest that the crewed mission out to Mars on a Hohmann method should involve 1 Starship and 1 Terran-R. Capable of landing on Mars. The collection should also be capable of life support of a crew if a free return is required, or at least with chances to do that.

Two ships together have a greater potential to reduce radiation exposure over the trip time. It is also possible that some artificial gravity might be implemented, especially if a free return becomes required. Another instance of artificial gravity could be a week or two before landing the crew, to get them partially reconditioned for the surface activities on Mars.

The use of artificial gravity in the above, would likely increase radiation danger, but it might be tolerable if a radiation storm shelter would exist. It might make sense if either of the ships could land the crew, if there was a failure on the other ship preventing its landing.

So, with a successful dual landing, and the provision of a propellant manufacturing capability, this gets closer to what Dr. Zubrin seems to me to suggest. But I note that then if the Terran-R is to bring some crew back to Earth, it has to lift consumables and life support for the entire trip to Martian orbit and back to Earth. Then it is also required that the entire quantity of propellants to achieve that must be manufactured on the surface of Mars.

It seems likely that no ships will have gone to Mars without a propellant depot, and such a propellant depot will need to have sun shading and active cooling for propellants. So, that tech has to come into existence. In fact, if I understand Elon Musk, the propellants need to be properly chilled to prevent cavitation of the raptors, and to allow more propellant mass to be put into the ship's tanks. So, those problems will have been solved, or no trips to Mars, I expect.

To improve on the Hohmann part of the mission then, I suggest a Ballistic Capture mission to place resources into Martian orbit(s).

https://www.detailedpedia.com/wiki-Ball … r%20launch.

This should not be confused with "Ballistic Delivery" of supplies to the surface of a world, which can also be called "Lithobraking", I believe.

So, in a similar fashion, I suggest that an asset consisting of a Starship and a Terran-R be sent to the orbits of Mars. Ballistic Capture is said to have more leeway as to when to launch than does the traditional method.

So, for a return of crew then the original Terran-R is given enough propellants to meet up with these two Ballistic Capture ships in Martian orbit. Obviously, I am anticipating that the Ballistic Capture Starship would have electrical assets active that could have kept extra propellants cool for the entire duration. So, at this point you have two Terran-Rs in orbit. At least one will be refilled to go to Earth with the return crew. Ideally the other one would have enough propellants to land back on Mars.

As for the Ballistic Capture Starship, its energy production device, (Probably Solar Panels), would be stowed, and that Starship would need to have enough propellants to land on Mars.

The Terran-R that was to head back to Earth would be outfitted with the consumables needed for the trip back to Earth, from these Ballistic Capture ship. So, it would not be required to land and lift to and from Mars, those supplies, and so that would reduce propellants require to manufacture on the surface of Mars.

Ideally the Terran-R refilled on Mars would only have propellants to carry crew, and temporary life support, and scientific samples to Martian orbit. I guess it might be sensible for it to also have the capability to abort back to the Martian base if that is required.

It will never be possible to remove all danger.

The Ballistic Capture Starship if successful to land, then the electric generation process stowed in it, would then be available to expand the power to propellants factory, and it might also be scrapped in part and made into habitat in part.

I sort of look at this like I imagine making a bridge. You might start with a small cable and then add more over time.

So, at first all you could refill would be a Terran-R to Martian orbit, but then eventually more, and even up to the Starship 1.0, and perhaps even the Starship 2.0.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-10-27 11:21:32)

Void · 2022-10-27 19:13:27

Well, I searched for an appropriate topic but with poor results. I guess I will put this here, as the notion of space elevators for Mars or larger asteroids, becomes more plausible.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ex … M%3DHDRSC3
Quote:

Exciting New Updates About Space Elevator Technology...Possible After All?
YouTube300 views3 hours agoby Anton Petrov

I guess my opinion is that as this technology might become closer to possible, then skyhooks should also become more possible.

And if these become more possible for Earth, then they may become more possible for Mars, and even more possible for the major Asteroids, and I suppose our Moon. Some asteroids may have the proper spectrum of materials for an industrial situation, full spectrum. We think that Mars does also.

So, perhaps these things can be tried on smaller world's first. I am of the opinion that it could make a lot of sense to harvest the energy of the Hill Sphere of a world, and in the case of the outer solar system which I guess Mars would qualify for due to its being cold, warm up a world, and otherwise energize it.

Two relatively local worlds, have a Carbon resource of significance. Mars and Venus. I have wondered if at least for now for Mars, a method could be developed that is less than a space elevator, a method to scoop Martian atmosphere to orbit. If so, then portions of the captured gas could be kept orbiting and portions might be dumped out back to the atmosphere as a thrust. Specifically, to shoot some of the Oxygen back to the atmosphere. Of course, my intentions are to provide orbital habitat.

I suppose that if a regular space elevator and orbital ring system were eventually deployed that would not be so hard at all, and perhaps that would be the correct way to do it, if it can be done that way.

But, if a ring were made from the materials of Phobos, with skyhooks dangling down to the upper atmosphere, then that might be a way to capture atmosphere, where the end of the hook would be traveling faster than the spin of the planet. A certain degree of that could be tolerated, I expect. Methods to collect atmosphere might be produced.

Possibly these could be of interest:
Query: "European air breathing electric rocket"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=European+ … 43fb96a133

Specific Response: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospher … propulsion

Specific Response: https://www.esa.int/Enabling_Support/Sp … c_thruster
Bingo! Quote:

Air-breathing electric thrusters could also be used at the outer fringes of atmospheres of other planets, drawing on the carbon dioxide of Mars, for instance.

So, now if an orbital ring were gradually fabricated from Phobos, from the ring could be dangled electric engines. Other tethers might project outward/upward with magnetic fields on them to catch and block the solar wind.

I will pause to seek to create an illustration................

OK, let's try this:

OK, I consider that to be a mega structure. Although not shown, the magnetics could also be on the ring, to block selectively the solar wind. But it may be that a leaky magnetic shield is desired to allow Protons to mix into the atmosphere, but to prevent atmospheric losses.

So, this does not dangle from geosynchronous orbit, so the tethers are shorter. However, the engines dangling in the atmosphere will either propels and drag, or just drag. Heating would be expected. I guess you could "Fly" your ring to spin it, but the main reason for the engines is to scoop atmosphere. The "Water Wheel" magnets on the outer tether lengths would also be used to adjust ring spin.

While this is intended to mine the atmosphere of course I would think that some method to grab "Hard" assets would be desired also. That may be possible.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-10-27 20:04:12)

Void · 2022-10-28 10:19:49

Per the previous post, there could be another motivating force, I suppose we might call this an actuated accordion drive

If the orbital ring could be selectively "Scrunched" in places and expanded in other places, then as per the planets gravitational field it would not achieve that much, I feel, but the ring although orbiting a planet, is also in the sun's gravitational field.

Actuation could happen naturally, where the ring is occulted by the planet and will cool and contract. It then would draw mass from each "End" of the ring to the cold point. In effect a solid-state condensation. Although this could exist, it might not be desired as it may fatigue the materials of the ring. But if you imagine a multi-part ring with linear actuators, then that could be done on purpose.

The three motivating methods I am currently aware of would be:
1) Electric Atmospheric Propulsion, (Also could be thermal).
2) Solar wind "Water Wheel".
3) Actuated Accordion Drive"

The ring itself, and the items attached to it would be an energy storage device of sorts, you would be able to overdrive or underdrive it a bit, as it may have tensile and compressive strengths.

Where you might make much of the ring from materials of Phobos, you might also procure Carbon for structure as well. Deimos and Mars also exist as sources of solid matter.

As for solar power in orbit? Of course. Habitats in orbit? Of course. So those would like to have some Nitrogen which could come from Mars.

We can hope that more Carbon and Nitrogen can be "Mined" from the regolith of Mars. Otherwise, Oxygen should be available to inflate the atmosphere, from rocks and from water.

Even a very cold Mars with a very thin Oxygen dominated atmosphere would be able to sustain ice covered seas and lakes, that could be manufactured. As long as you would have abundant energy from the solar energy of the Hill Sphere of Mars. Nuclear and Geothermal might supplement that.

So, a Mars with vast underground and undersea habitats, and also vast amounts of orbital habitats seems a good notion to me.

And it is not impossible that there would also be so called "Domes" on the surface, and it is not impossible that eventually the atmosphere would be of sufficient pressure that humans could be on the surface without environment suits.

Pretty good if it can be worked towards, I feel.

In the beginning the "Ring" might just be Phobos and a ring of dust to create a magnetic field. Then you would build on that.

Accordion ring propulsion might work with other planets, even if they have a global magnetic field.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-10-28 10:34:49)

Void · 2022-10-30 18:49:56

On the previous post, the idea of including compound tethers is not out of consideration.

using the solar wind to impart momentum into a growing orbital framework, so, Carbon from the atmosphere, and stony/metaled materials from Mars and its moons.

I am not 100% assured that I understand what should be built, but at this time it seems like a very nice thing to think about.

Various methods might be considered to draw atmospheric materials into the orbital frame. The parts of the frame that might actually be in the very high atmosphere might actually have an orbital speed greater than that atmosphere. Provided the solar wind can overcome the loss of momentum of dragging in the atmosphere.

It might eventually be possible to alter the spin of Mars. By this method. If you could speed up the spin, then how much would be the limit of desire? I don't think so but some ages from now could the equator spin so fast that the orbital frame could be anchored to it?

Just some strange thinking.

What about Saturn, Uranus, Neptune? (Venus, Earth)? Could similar be done? For planets with a block of the solar wind by magnetic field, another source of momentum would be needed though.

Accordion Drive? Robot Squirrel Cage Drive?

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-10-30 18:58:21)

Void · 2022-10-30 19:25:11

Well, Phobos could be very big in a method of artificial magnetic field, and also a world ring for Mars.

I just stumbled into this article which can be a query: "Implantation of Martian atmospheric Ions within the regolith of Phobos"

This is the general response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Implantat … 1639da52fd

This, I believe is the specific article that triggered me: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41561- … ate%202014. Quote:

Abstract
When a planet has an orbiting moon, atoms and molecules that escape the planetary atmosphere as ions and are accelerated into space may be implanted and preserved inside the moon’s surface. Here, we determine the long-term averaged anisotropy of ions escaping the atmosphere of Mars and impacting its moon Phobos from more than four years of in situ ion observations. These measurements are used to quantify an estimate of the average flux of ions that has been impacting each location on Phobos over geologic timescales. We find that the flux of bombarding Martian ions is highly asymmetric on the moon’s surface, as the nearside of Phobos sees a flux higher by a factor of 15 to 100 than its farside. We show that a first consequence of this is that Martian atmospheric oxygen, carbon, nitrogen and argon atoms are implanted and may be preserved inside the uppermost hundreds of nanometres of Phobos’s nearside regolith grains, which may be brought back to Earth by future sample return missions. The second effect is that alteration of the regolith properties is asymmetric on Phobos’s surface, as Martian ions accelerate weathering of the nearside by a factor of ~2.

About the porosity of Phobos: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Porosity+ … f33cc3a2b9
Quote:

The porosity of Phobos was calculated to be 30% ± 5%, or a quarter to a third being empty. Physical characteristics See more

So, it also appears that the solar wind is absorbed into Phobos. I could hunt that down, but I believe I have it in a post prior to this somewhere. On the leeward side from the solar wind an electron cloud results.

So, we may have had a history of Mars atmosphere molecules being pushed into the pore space of the world Phobos, while the solar wind is also pushed into it.

I think this is it: https://www.sci.news/space/powerful-sol … the%20flow. Quote:

When the solar wind strikes the day side of Phobos, the plasma is absorbed by the surface. This creates a void on the night side of Phobos that the plasma flow is obstructed from directly entering.
However, the composition of the wind — made of two types of electrically charged particles, namely ions and electrons — affects the flow.

And the possibility of a very tenuous atmosphere inside of the pore space of this moon, and large electrical differentials.

I see the possibility of the synthesis of water and perhaps organic compounds. Perhaps some kind of electrical discharges assisting in the creation of those.

This article is very optimistic about ice, and I don't know if it is correct. However, I will wonder if things like tar and such might be in this moon.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/moons/mars-moons/in-depth/
Quote:

Like Earth's Moon, Phobos and Deimos always present the same face to their planet. Both are lumpy, heavily-cratered and covered in dust and loose rocks. They are among the darker objects in the solar system. The moons appear to be made of carbon-rich rock mixed with ice and may be captured asteroids.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-10-30 19:46:07)

Void · 2022-10-31 12:13:55

(th), I see that you have something going on "Index» Science, Technology, and Astronomy» Teleoperation". While I am tempted to interrupt, I fear that it would disrupt. You from a much different background, I would like to see how you carry your topic.

But I will intend in part to work with things like robotics and teleoperation in this location as well.

Here, I am interested in the use of those on worlds and between worlds.

In the case of the Earth, we are so well adapted to the Earth, that it makes much sense for the teleoperators to be on the Earth to a large extent, and that machinery then be off Earth (In many cases), but in somewhat local places such as the Moon or orbits of the Earth/Moon subsystem.

I have been thinking about Mars but am now very interested in Venus.

For Mars, it is not certain which location will be better for bulk populations. There will be orbital, surface, subsea, and underground. My notion is to let what works work in that regard.

For Venus, I am starting to think "Turtles, all the way down": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down
Quote:

"Turtles all the way down" is an expression of the problem of infinite regress. The saying alludes to the mythological idea of a World Turtle that supports a flat Earth on its back. It suggests that this turtle rests on the back of an even larger turtle, which itself is part of a column of increasingly larger turtles that continues indefinitely.
The exact origin of the phrase is uncertain. In the form "rocks all the way down," the saying appears as early as 1838.[1] References to the saying's mythological antecedents, the World Turtle and its counterpart the World Elephant, were made by a number of authors in the 17th and 18th centuries.[2][3]
The expression has been used to illustrate problems such as the regress argument in epistemology.

For Venus, "Down" would be the surface, "Up" might be the highest point a structure can be supported to by various means, and of course orbital space.

Venus could be attractive for the probability that it can be determined rather well if life does or does not exist in its atmosphere. Knowing that then a decision(s) can be made as to what might be done with Venus.

So, supposing the determination allows, I propose "Turtle Towers".

Venus being different as it has a slow spin, I suggest that the polar areas might have a more consistent character seasonally. Here is a somewhat annoying response to the Query: "Axis tilt of Venus": https://www.universetoday.com/36123/axis-of-venus/
Quote:

Axis of Venus
[/caption]
The axial tilt of Venus is 177.3°. That’s a bit of a confusing number, so let’s figure out what’s going on here. Compare this number to the Earth’s axial tilt of 23.5°. Our tilt gives us such different seasons between summer and winter, so you’d expect that Venus’ much larger tilt would cause more extreme seasons.
Nope. But if you remember your high school geometry, you’ll realize what’s going on. A full circle is 360°. Half a circle is 180°. So if you subtract 177.3° from 180°, you get 2.7°. In other words, Venus is actually only tilted away from the plane of the ecliptic by only 2.7°. Venus is actually completely upside down – almost perfectly upside down.
In fact, Venus is the only planet in the Solar System that rotates backwards compared to the other planets. Seen
from above, all the planets are turning in a counter clockwise direction. That’s why Asia sees the Sun first, then Europe, and then the Americas. Mars is the same, and so is Mercury, but Venus is rotating clockwise.
It’s possible that Venus was knocked upside down by a massive impact early in its history. it’s also possible that Venus just slowed down through tidal locking with the Sun, and was somehow spun slowly backwards through its interactions with the other planets.
Here on Earth, the axial tilt is responsible for the seasons. When it’s winter in the northern hemisphere, the north pole is tilted away from the Sun, and less of the Sun’s radiation falls on every square meter of ground. The opposite is true in the summer. Without a significant axial tilt, Venus doesn’t experience seasons like this. The temperature of Venus is a nice even 462°C everywhere on the whole planet.
We have written many articles about Venus for Universe Today. Here’s an article about Venus’ wet, volcanic past, and here’s an article about how Venus might have had continents and oceans in the ancient past.

So, if one were to build a "Turtle Tower" on Venus, the polar areas are most likely to have a more consistent weather pattern(s) at the pole, up in the upper atmosphere.

It is well publicized that Venus has some relatively temperate areas at some level in the atmosphere. A "Turtle Tower" would hope to include that in its structure(s).

Each floor of a "Turtle Tower" would hopefully have a buffered environment inside of it. I would think that it would be desired to have a relatively neutral PH inside of the chambers. You would have to have a gas mix that is close to the weight of the gas mix outside. As many areas in the lower floors of this tower would be hot, you would not very much want free Oxygen or water in the mix, for their corrosive potentials.

While a floor might for the most part be "Hot", some areas of it may be cooled by various means, including perhaps water. This would be an exception to the fear of corrosion. It may be possible to operate and sustain robots and teleoperated machines in such environments longer term.

While a "Turtle Tower" would be rooted in the surface of the planet, each floor would to some extents have a relatively "Neutral Buoyancy" in the atmosphere of Venus. It would have to be strong enough that winds would not uproot it.

While the floors "Below" might contain a large number of heavy gasses, the floors in the "Habitable Zone" of the atmosphere might be largely of Nitrogen and Oxygen, where Oxygen is not a corrosion concern.

But above the "Habitable Zone" of the atmosphere, "Lighter Than Air" methods might be used, perhaps involving Hydrogen and/or Helium.

If this could be done, it is obvious that mining could be used to provide expansion of the "Turtle Towers".

Also, the thermal differentials would be of value for energy production. Should the upper sections be cool/cold, then water could be condensed, or Nitrogen cooled.

Either of these could be dropped down ducts to the lower floors in the tower where they could cool certain portions of each floor. In that process then those fluids could be heated, and the heated fluid conducted upwards to the higher cooler floors though other ducts. There are many ways that this could be used to produce energy.

As for altering the atmosphere of Venus, you might store substances from the atmosphere of Venus in sections of the towers. That is, if you actually want to alter the nature of Venus.

You might actually start the production of "Turtle Towers" by placing a chamber on the surface of Venus, for mining to be done. Of course, that internal environment would be buffered to allow robotics to operate, and telepresence machines as well. Wind might produce power, but I anticipate that microwave energy might also be used, and perhaps nuclear fission.

I guess the major thing to buffer is the corrosive nature of the surface atmosphere. And then perhaps some cooling method. The robots will have to be able to work in the pressure of the environment. Cooling might be more for things like computers and such and some of that may be in orbit and kept cool there. The actuators would need to be rugged per heat and pressure, but some cooling might be applied.

So, in this story, the "Turtle Tower" would be built from the bottom up, but with directions from orbit of floating habitats, and with some items being delivered down to the work area.

Just how big the footprint of such "Turtle Towers" would be, depends on how long they are under construction.

I guess that is a start.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-10-31 12:58:01)

Void · 2022-11-01 18:35:10

I guess I am in the mood for some more goofing around about Venus.

A "Turtle Tower" perhaps resembling a bamboo with vertical stacked segments could be amusing.

But if the question of life in the atmosphere checks as a negative, then what that planet is a giant very hot oven and a potential power supply of awesome potential.

Historically the vision has been to have floating cities. I seem to recall that that originated with the Russians. I seem to recall members here, a long time ago suggesting hanging down cables to collect regolith up to these floating cities.

That might also suggest anchoring the cities to the regolith with cables, and perhaps having elevators.

I in the past have suggested aircraft filled with a cryogenic fluid, to drop down to land on the surface, and to use that fluid to cool machinery and also to boil for energy. Not sure how well that works. Liquid Nitrogen should boil, I think that liquid CO2 would. So, then you fly the aircraft up to your floating city with some mined cargo, before all the fluids boil off.

Perhaps elevator cars, riding on vertical cables could operate in a similar fashion.

Things like electricity might be able to travel though such cables, to help power the ground installations.

The environment of Venus is of course severe in many ways. Layering might help. Wind is both an asset and a problem. A tower of big proportions might support some wind installations. I suggest that the tower could incorporate layering. An outer layer device might have some form of flotation. Perhaps a "Shingled" wall. Each Shingle being very large and having Nitrogen floats attached to it. So, then the outside of this would have a coating to deal with Verga, which would be a rain of mostly Sulfuric Acid. The shingles might not keep the vapors out but might deflect the mist and raindrops. Perhaps a mist will be less corrosive than the vapors.

So, then perhaps the outer layer would deflect mist and rain. Perhaps a more inner layer might be a vapor barrier, like plastic that we put next to fiberglass insulation for that purpose.

So, then if you have that, perhaps a dehumidification process inside of that. These all may have individual floatation processes, in the atmosphere at the level they might be in. And still, they would also employ compressive and tensile elements, to compensate for individual parts that are not perfectly balances. Collectively, however they would suspend the enclosure which might be as a cylinder.

In general, the thermal conditions might be very similar to those outside all the way up and down the column enclosure.

At some point pipelines could drop fluids all the way down to feed into engines down on the enclosed surface. These could be used to cool processes, and to boil for powering engines. Ducts might conduct the heated vapors back upwards.

I choose not to fill it out much further.

The question of altering the chemistry of Venus then can emerge. Extracting Hydrogen from H2SO4 for water and other things would be important. Would you take as much of it as you could and therefore leave Sulfur Oxides? That way the environment might be less acid.

If you are compatible with a hot Venus, might you turn up the heat? Maybe you would release super greenhouse gasses. Of course, doing that, you would need a continuing plan to alter the structure of your "Turtle Towers".

But it can turn the view of Venus on its head. Is Venus a wonderful solar collector that you can mine? Should it be altered, even altered to get hotter?

The question comes, would you bring materials from Venus up to low and higher orbits to construct things?

So, a little chalk board upon which imagination can work. I consider that a good thing.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-11-02 08:54:02)

Void · 2022-11-02 08:55:14

I see that my previous post probably needs editing as some of the wording is confusing in places. I will edit a copy here:

I guess I am in the mood for some more goofing around about Venus.
A "Turtle Tower" perhaps resembling a bamboo with vertical stacked segments could be amusing.
But if the question of life in the atmosphere checks as a negative, then what that planet is a giant very hot oven and a potential power supply of awesome potential.
Historically the vision has been to have floating cities. I seem to recall that that originated with the Russians. I seem to recall members here, a long time ago suggesting hanging down cables to collect regolith up to these floating cities.
That might also suggest anchoring the cities to the regolith with cables, and perhaps having elevators.
I in the past have suggested aircraft filled with a cryogenic fluid, to drop down to land on the surface, and to use that fluid to cool machinery and also to boil for energy. Not sure how well that works. Liquid Nitrogen should boil, I think that liquid CO2 would. So, then you fly the aircraft up to your floating city with some mined cargo, before all the fluids boil off.
Perhaps elevator cars, riding on vertical cables could operate in a similar fashion.
Things like electricity might be able to travel though such cables, to help power the ground installations.
The environment of Venus is of course severe in many ways. Layering might help. Wind is both an asset and a problem. A tower of big proportions might support some wind installations. I suggest that the tower could incorporate layering. An outer layer device might have some form of flotation. Perhaps a "Shingled" wall. Each Shingle being very large and having Nitrogen floats attached to it. So, then the outside of this would have a coating to deal with Verga, which would be a rain of mostly Sulfuric Acid. The shingles might not keep the vapors out but might deflect the mist and raindrops. Perhaps a mist will be less corrosive than the vapors.
So, then perhaps the outer layer would deflect mist and rain. Perhaps a more inner layer might be a vapor barrier, like plastic that we put next to fiberglass insulation for that purpose.
So, then if you have that, perhaps a dehumidification process inside of that. These all may have individual floatation processes, in the atmosphere at the level they might be in. And still, they would also employ compressive and tensile elements, to compensate for individual parts that are not perfectly balanced. Collectively, however they would suspend the enclosure which might be as a cylinder.
In general, the thermal conditions might be very similar to those outside all the way up and down the column enclosure.
At some point pipelines could drop fluids all the way down to feed into engines down on the enclosed surface. These could be used to cool processes, and to boil for powering engines. Ducts might conduct the heated vapors back upwards.
I choose not to fill it out much further.
The question of altering the chemistry of Venus then can emerge. Extracting Hydrogen from H2SO4 for water and other things would be important. Would you take as much of it as you could and therefore leave Sulfur Oxides? That way the environment might be less acid.
If you are compatible with a hot Venus, might you turn up the heat? Maybe you would release super greenhouse gasses. Of course, doing that, you would need a continuing plan to alter the structure of your "Turtle Towers".
But it can turn the view of Venus on its head. Is Venus a wonderful solar collector that you can mine? Should it be altered, even altered to get hotter?
The question comes, would you bring materials from Venus up to low and higher orbits to construct things?
So, a little chalk board upon which imagination can work. I consider that a good thing.
Done.

It does not seem that bad at this time. Perhaps I had a dream and remembered it. Oh well, maybe later I will see more problems.

I have no delusions that what may be possible for Venus will be easy. It will require and expansion of human abilities along with the abilities of machines. But supposing Venus was handled in the ways suggested here, I am interested in how ships like the Starship might function for that environment.

The gravity of Venus ~90% that of Earth, which is verified here: https://www.universetoday.com/14245/wha … -on-venus/

Other things:
-Venus does not have as much assistive spin to launch from the Equator.
-The Starship and similar don't appear to be able to survive deep in the atmosphere. You also would not want to launch from there either, as there would be so much drag.
-It is possible that you could get into a wind stream to assist slightly a path to orbit: https://www.universetoday.com/36816/win … 0km%2Fhour. Quote:

At the very top of the cloud layers on Venus, wind speeds reach 355 km/hour (or 100 meters/second). This is the same the jet stream here on Earth. As you descend through the cloud layers, though, the wind speeds pick up. In the middle layer, the winds can reach speeds of more than 700 km/hour.

So, that looks really challenging for maintaining a "Turtle Tower". But some real wind energy there, I suppose.

This is in the dreaming stage, so we won't let reality stop us from trying anyway. That is a heck of a lot of wind power.

Yikes! 434.959835 mph = 700 km/hour. But maybe at the poles it is not so much?
This still sounds like dancing with the devil: https://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration … ss_answers Quote:

ESA - How windy is it on Venus? Venus Express answers
“We have learnt that between the equator and 50-55˚ latitude south, the speed of the winds varies a lot, from about 370 km/h at a height of 66 km down to about 210 km/h at 45-47 km”, said Sánchez-Lavega. “At latitudes higher than 65˚, the situation changes dramatically - the huge hurricane-like vortex structure present over the poles takes over.

Query: "Venus, huge hurricane-like vortex structure present over the poles"

Response: https://www.wired.com/2010/09/venus-pol … 0in%201979. Quote:

New images from ESA's Venus Express spacecraft show that the so-called polar vortex, which was thought to swirl steadily around the planet's poles at all times, is actually a chaotic maelstrom. A gigantic hurricane with two calm, dark eyes was discovered at Venus' north pole by the Pioneer Venus spacecraft in 1979.
Venus' Polar Vortex Is Surprisingly Wild | WIRED
www.wired.com/2010/09/venus-polar-vortex/
www.wired.com/2010/09/venus-polar-vortex/

So, that sounds horrid! Still, lots of energy.

A real challenge.

I suppose that spaceports might end up floating, but maybe not.

I think Elon Musk said that if the Earth's gravity was somewhat less then SSTO would make sense. Well, the gravity of Venus is ~90% that of Earth so maybe SSTO.

I think that a propellant depleted Starship or similar might float at say 5 bars??? I think the wind speed might be lower down there as well. So, if it could survive that environment, it might be unloaded, and then pulled towards the top of the tower and refilled for launch. However, I think it would need to be on the leeward side of the tower, supposing a tower could be built that could survive those wind speeds.

Well, the whole thing is a vast challenge, but maybe with some advanced technology, it might be done someday.

I was not aware of the wind challenge. It is something to think about.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-11-02 09:27:58)

Void · 2022-11-02 10:11:33

It is very easy to come to a conclusion on this. Venus has great potential but the challenge of it is probably too much for now.

The Moon>Mars>Asteroids>Jupiter System, are probably more attainable at this point, and also have large potentials.

Someday perhaps Venus, but not yet.

Done.

Void · 2022-11-04 18:36:21

I did recently come across the indication that Venus has 100 times the Deuterium that the Earth does, per Hydrogen proportioning, I suppose.

Typically, such information might be suggested to support a disappeared ocean that existed in the past. I absolutely don't have any evidence to argue the case either way. But I will suggest that as it is indicated that Venus has a Proton Aurora like Mars, heavy Hydrogen might have come from that????

Or, maybe Hydrogen being in the cores of planets as they form, the existence of an ocean ever, does not have to be true, but it might have been true. As I have said I don't know. I just want all the bases covered; I think it helps to figure out what to look for. Better testing points and methods??? I don't know what those would be, but I would like to figure it out.

At any rate, it seems that Venus has a lot of energy sources that could be tapped, but the question will be, "Is there something else that would be lower hanging fruit?".

That is how I see it now.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-11-04 18:37:27)

Void · 2022-11-05 21:31:19

FYI, I still have trouble logging on, but persistence seems to have worked this time. I have not tried another computer yet.

But Isaac Arthur has this, which seems to indicate the manipulation of Stars, which I would consider to be more ambitious than manipulating worlds. It is certainly interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cw20VbX1XCc
Quote:

Refueling Our Sun

Something I got from it is that white dwarfs can still do fusion, if they are fed fuels that will work. But since they do not have a protective layer of Hydrogen/Helium, they emit hard radiation instead of what we call light.

Also, there is some discussion of how p-p fusion is achieved by several sub-steps.

I am going to attempt something. Most likely I will not get a good solution. Yet.

Calliban has suggested that an artificial world could be constructed out of water with an ice layer. I am not sure if it needs to be 50 km in size??? Well, it has to be of a size. Its own gravity would give a significant water column pressure at its center. However, at its center it will experience a level of microgravity.

I have had the notion of creating a Hydrogen Bomb reactor. I don't know if a containment can be based on the re-enforcement of such a ball of water. My notion at this time is that you would want one water ball as a reactor, and another as what you inhabit. They might be connected to each other with space elevator technology.

I would like a Hydrogen Bomb type that did not involve Uranium or Plutonium, but I don't know how to do that. I have seen reading that suggests the use of Lasers, but I don't know how to make that work. You also need Lithium to produce Tritium for typical bombs.

So, to do things based on that technology is the first and more plausible path to this thing. You would also need to get Deuterium, and possibly Helium 3.

I would like to fortify the reactor ball with a super strong shell, perhaps made of metals and Cables from Carbon substances???

Setting a bomb off in the center of this thing will produce water hammer, unless you have a shock absorber. It will also produce lots of steam, and hot water.

But, if you surround your bomb with a bubble of gas, perhaps that will help. I suggest Hydrogen and Helium types of stuff.

This is also intended to react with the Neutrons and hard radiation emitted by the bomb. The hope is to produce Tritium, Helium 3, Deuterium and such. Sort of like is apparently done in the sun.

It is also hoped that the Hydrogen and Helium bubble surrounding the bomb explosion will produce a plasma mirror that will reflect energy back into the center of the bubble. I don't know if that is possible.

So, after an explosion, presuming your reactor survived, any gas products produced could be centrifuged out of the water, and sent into a new bubble for a new bomb. If you had radioactive products from transmutation that are solids, perhaps they can be deployed to the next explosion.

Well obviously, I am hoping to get to p-p fusion with the other sub processes created.

This would be really nice if the human race moves out beyond the solar wind. Hydrogen with Deuterium and Helium 3 should exist there, so it might be possible to do it without the p-p fusion, but then where do you get the Uranium, Plutonium, and Lithium? Plus the metals a Carbon.

I guess you would have to mine the cores of larger objects for that.

As I said, I am expecting to fail, but I did try.

I like the idea that people could go through the Galaxy, and power their activities this way.

It might be more efficient than stars, if it works.

Done

Last edited by Void (2022-11-05 22:00:52)

Void · 2022-11-06 11:02:39

For the moderators, I was unable to log on from "Index". Then I went here and tried to log on. It worked.

This Video is about setting off a very big bomb in the Mariana Trench: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Hy … &FORM=VIRE

So, although the conditions within a ball of water in space would not be the same, I think there could be hope that it might be done to a profit.

What little I know about Fusion Reactors is that there is Neutronic and Aneutronic variations. The Aneutronic would need Helium 3 to apparently absorb many of the Neutrons.

Our weapons Hydrogen Bombs do not have an encircling volume of Hydrogen and the transmuted materials of it. So, they then emit Neutrons and hard radiation. This seems much like the core of a star as described by Isaac Arthur.

As it happens, what I am thinking of would be like a tiny supernova, surrounded by a dominantly Hydrogen bubble, or materials containing Hydrogen that would release Hydrogen easier than would water.

This could also involve something like a greenhouse effect at some points, and I hope would produce a spherical plasma mirror. But I really don't know. The bubble spoken of would be a bit of a shock absorber. But in the water surrounding the bubble could be bags of gas that would also serve as shock absorbers.

With this I would hope that transmutation of Hydrogen and other substances could occur in the surrounding Hydrogen bubble.
If tritium could be produced, then the need for more Lithium would be reduced. Obviously, the desire for Deuterium would exist. I am not sure you would want so much Helium 3, but maybe it is desirable? Not that you might have a choice though.

The transmutation of metals in this device might also be of value. I doubt that you could produce Uranium or Plutonium, but perhaps some other Neutron producing substances with a shorter half-life might assist a subsequent explosive event?

The question of an outer shell would exist. I was thinking a metal shell wrapped in super strong Carbon cables. Should there be ice under that? I don't know.

I would think that sufficient water resources may exist at Jupiter to do some of this, maybe Ceres.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-11-06 11:16:15)

Void · 2022-11-06 21:02:31

So possibly an Ice/Water ball could incorporate some kind of fusion power method, as I tried to work towards previously.

Callibans Ice/Water balls could also allow for a separate unit that would house human activities and might in part get electrical power from a fusion reactor or other devices. I have a vision of such. I will see if I can make a crude diagram for it.

Pause......

OK, this is rather simple:

While the Dwarf Planet Ceres might do, I am quite interested in the potential for Callisto as well.

At that location you might draw power from the spin of the Magnetic field of Jupiter, perhaps for water balls in the L4 & L5 of Callisto, if those are sufficiently stable. Solar Energy is also OK, with concentrating mirrors, and of course Fission would work. And then perhaps some type of Fusion technology.

The tethers to connect to various other objects in the proximity of the device.

The air bubble would have very little gravity. However, I think it might be possible to have objects "Fall Up" to its inner surface.

You would have synthetic gravity machines inside the air bubble, faster ones would need vacuum chambers.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-11-17 14:06:34)

Calliban · 2022-11-09 19:33:45

One of the technically easiest ways of increasing the energy yield of a fusion reactor is to scale it up. This naturally increases confinement time, which is a key factor in meeting the Lawson criterion. This is true for both magnetic and inertial confinement. The problem with attempting to do this on Earth is that the reactors would need to be at least several GWe, which is too large to be practical for most grids. But if you are building a reactor to power an entire world, the huge power output isn't something that is likely to present a problem for you. You need a lot of power anyway. In fact, a TW scale fusion reactor can exploit some really huge scale economies.

A lot of terraforming concepts end up looking impractical because of the sheer quantity of energy needed to achieve them. However, truly gigantic fusion reactors could be practical in ways that smaller reactors are not. In some ways, it may be technically easier to build a 1TW reactor than it woukd a 1GW reactor.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-11-09 19:39:02)

Void · 2022-11-09 19:39:20

That sounds good, because the further out the human race would go, the more relatively valuable the power, and the greater the accessible mass to work with, of course that will be in islands of mass such as moons, dwarf planets, and perhaps eventually rogue worlds.

Done.

Void · 2022-11-09 20:47:14

Well, I noticed this because of a video by "Anton Petrov". He mentions this: https://www.space.com/phobos-radar-unkn … rs-express Quote:

Mars moon mystery: Strange structures found inside 'fearful' Phobos
By Keith Cooper published 9 days ago
Understanding the interior structure of Phobos could be key in solving the mystery of its origin.

There is this quote as well:

Mars has two moons, named Phobos and Deimos after the gods of 'fear' and 'panic' in Greek mythology. Unlike the major moons of our solar system, Phobos and Deimos are tiny, just 16.7 miles (27 kilometers) and 9.3 miles (15 kilometers) across, respectively. They have a similar composition to carbonaceous C-type asteroids, and are irregularly shaped like asteroids too, which has led to the suspicion that they actually are rogue asteroids captured by Mars' gravity. However, both Phobos and Deimos' orbits around the red planet are over Mars' equator and both orbits are extremely circular, which suggests they formed around Mars. If they had been captured, they would be expected to have more elliptical orbits in different planes.

A very, very amateur guess by me is that the two hemispheres having different heights, tides may have moved the moons to the equator. Like bowling a gutter ball perhaps.

I don't know if that could also circularize the orbits as well. The moons being porous may have "Dry tides", that is rubble shifting around.

It would be nice if some hydrogens were found in a compound, but I don't feel that I need it to be so. Rather I just want to know to know where reality is.

Here is his video that I watched: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=An … %26ghpl%3D

Quote:

[Anton Petrov] Important Mars Updates: Huge Collision, Weird Sounds, Unexplained Debris and New Issues

Done.

By the way it took me about 25 tries to get signed on this time.

Last edited by Void (2022-11-09 21:04:54)

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#582 2022-10-25 11:46:13

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#583 2022-10-25 14:04:41

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#584 2022-10-26 20:16:50

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#585 2022-10-27 10:42:48

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#586 2022-10-27 19:13:27

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#587 2022-10-28 10:19:49

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#588 2022-10-30 18:49:56

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#589 2022-10-30 19:25:11

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#590 2022-10-31 12:13:55

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#591 2022-11-01 18:35:10

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#592 2022-11-02 08:55:14

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#593 2022-11-02 10:11:33

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#594 2022-11-04 18:36:21

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#595 2022-11-05 21:31:19

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#596 2022-11-06 11:02:39

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#597 2022-11-06 21:02:31

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#598 2022-11-09 19:33:45

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#599 2022-11-09 19:39:20

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#600 2022-11-09 20:47:14

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

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