Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Calliban · 2022-10-13 15:12:11

The problem with polymer balloons on Mars is that Martian fines are both abrasive and carry a static charge. They will stick to the balloon and gradually undermine its transparency. They will scratch its surface. You can either make it out of something hard like glass or make it out of something cheap and disposable like polyethylene. In the second case, you essentially have a polytunnel, but with walls thick enough to resist internal pressure. Polyethylene will be the easiest polymer to make on Mars.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-10-13 15:15:30)

Void · 2022-10-13 18:35:23

Calliban Said:

Calliban
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From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 2,120
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The problem with polymer balloons on Mars is that Martian fines are both abrasive and carry a static charge. They will stick to the balloon and gradually undermine its transparency. They will scratch its surface. You can either make it out of something hard like glass or make it out of something cheap and disposable like polyethylene. In the second case, you essentially have a polytunnel, but with walls thick enough to resist internal pressure. Polyethylene will be the easiest polymer to make on Mars.
Last edited by Calliban (Today 16:15:30)
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

Well, thank you so much, I consider that a good and friendly contribution.

It makes me think of two other related options.
1) Indeed, make a glass dome, maybe if not too expensive an Alon dome. Use it to do some filtering of light, and also to protect from abrasion. Very likely do not pressurize it. But inflate a balloon inside of its frame to hold a pressure sufficient to satisfy needs. Weights could be attached on top of it to balance the pressure, if that were useful.

2) Go ahead with what I previously suggested but give the outer balloon a covering of Polyethylene to be like an epidermis of the skin. Replace as required. Just drape it over and peg it down like on a tent. If Poly is indeed the easy one to make, then the balloon and the "Tarp" over it, can be made of Poly. Then treated like skin, you would shed the outer layer as it abraded and yellowed, and put a new one on.

So, thanks. If you have more suggestions, please bring them on.

I will make note that such installations might receive more light from mirrors/heliostats. In orbit might actually be the preferred way, as they would not be expected to suffer from dust in the same ways as they would in the atmospheric environment of Mars.

We also can hope to enhance the production of agriculture with chemicals, apparently at least for Fungi and Algae, (I expect Cyanobacteria as well).

This again: https://www.inverse.com/innovation/hori … 0with%20it.
Quote:

ARTIFICIAL PHOTOSYNTHESIS CAN GROW PLANTS WITHOUT LIGHT — AND MAY SOLVE A PLANETARY DILEMMA

I have seen print recently that suggests some crops will find the chemical toxic. It has been suggested that new varieties that tolerate it better might be produced. But even if it is microbes that can do a lot of good.

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I have one version of terraforming Mars that would indeed involve creating lots of impoundments at each pole, and perhaps at lower latitudes as well. At the poles it may not be necessary to cover these impoundments. It may be sufficient that precipitation will keep falling on them. Water tends to migrate from hot to cold after all. But the trick is to have a source of energy to keep the impoundments liquid, at least under a layer of ice and snow and frost.

But that is probably a possible thing to do in the next few centuries.

Before that we need to know about the possible existence of water and life on Mars and decide which way to do things.

Done.

And even so, we might hope that that "Epidermis" plastic can still be put to use: https://phys.org/news/2022-10-key-big-g … cling.html
Quote:

Researchers take key step toward big gains in plastics recycling
by Oregon State University

Done

Last edited by Void (2022-10-13 19:05:15)

Void · 2022-10-14 11:31:37

So, based on previous posts, I am of the opinion that it would be possible to have oceans on Mars even at the atmospheric pressure existing now. They would be ice covered, and would require a very large input of energy to tuck under the ice, to keep the oceans liquid.

But the question is, would this be more beneficial than some other notions? It is an option that might be done in some way, but other options may be preferred.

Done.

Void · 2022-10-14 17:11:49

I stumbled on this today: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Gr … M%3DHDRSC3
Quote:

Groundbreaking Research in Artificial Photosynthesis - Doing What Nature Couldn't
YouTube · 44,000+ views · 10/6/2022 · by Anton Petrov

It is the best explanation I have encountered.

A great surprise is the "Cyborg Bacteria" that apparently can create chemicals for this at an 80% efficiency.

It fits in with the notion that large portions of Mars might be terraformed, such as creating two polar oceans. Those would be very inefficient at creating life support. But what was described in Anton Petrov's article suggests that the utilization of light and water and CO2, is going to become incredibly efficient. This might suggest alternate notions of production in space and on the Earth. This would then change notions of spin gravity habitats in orbit, and habitations on planets.

-------

Here is an article about the Cyborg Bacteria: https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-40975719
Quote:

'Cyborg' bacteria deliver green fuel source from sunlight
Published
22 August 2017

Scientists have created bacteria covered in tiny semiconductors that generate a potential fuel source from sunlight, carbon dioxide and water.
The so-called "cyborg" bugs produce acetic acid, a chemical that can then be turned into fuel and plastic.
In lab experiments, the bacteria proved much more efficient at harvesting sunlight than plants.

Apparently, that is not such a new discovery, but the chemicals can drive artificial photosynthesis as well.

I am very impressed!

If they bring this all forward over time, then the total amount of transparency required to make the various products can be strongly reduced. So, presumably a lower cost for a much higher productivity in space and on Earth.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-10-14 17:29:38)

Void · 2022-10-15 12:40:01

This post was a lot of effort on my part, and I expect it might fall by the wayside where it is, so I am putting a copy here. From: "Index» Science, Technology, and Astronomy» O'Neill colonies/cylinders", Post #19

I get attracted to the things that Calliban posts about, I hope I am not too much of an annoyance that way. Spin Launch then. How about for Mars?
https://fossbytes.com/spinlaunch-rocket … ve%20today.
Quote:
Forget About Launching Rockets, SpinLaunch Shoots Them Into Space
A simple-sounding yet promising approach.
Quote:
SpinLaunch is an American space technology firm that is testing an alternate method of launching rockets. Instead of using fuel, its Orbital Launch System uses electricity-powered kinetic force to shoot a re-usable projectile into space. As a consequence, it offers a sustainable alternative to what we have today.
But I am wondering if the tops of the shield volcano's might be a place to have a launch site?
I found this about Olympus Mons: https://spaceflight-simulator.fandom.co … ympus_Mons
Quote:
72 pascals
According to 2 sources
Olympus Mons is one of the tallest mountains of the solar system, standing at 21230 meters. At the top, the air pressure is just 72 pascals. The slope of Olympus Mons is 5 degrees.
A certain Dr. has schooled me that you do not want to land on those type peaks as for lack of air braking.
Query: "convert pascal to mbar" (Yes, I can be ignorant)
https://www.bing.com/search?q=convert+p … 676c75a6ad
3 Decimal places?? So, 0.72 Millibars, it seems.
So, at the top of the Mountains, (There are four I believe), Protection from Micrometeorites, Carbon, Oxygen from CO2 available, Nitrogen available, Argon available. Regolith available.
Air braking from Orbit not very good, Hydrogen resources, presumed to be meager.
Query: "How often do dust storms cover Olympus Mons?"
I think the answer is sometimes yes and sometimes no???
https://www.orlandosentinel.com/space/o … story.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympus_Mons
So, my guess is that solar energy is relatively good on top of the shield volcanos.
This is interesting:
Partially collapsed lava tubes are visible as chains of pit craters, and broad lava fans formed by lava emerging from intact, subsurface tubes are also common.[28] In places along the volcano's base, solidified lava flows can be seen spilling out into the surrounding plains, forming broad aprons, and burying the basal escarpment. Crater counts from high-resolution images taken by the Mars Express orbiter in 2004 indicate that lava flows on the northwestern flank of Olympus Mons range in age from 115 million years old (Mya) to only 2 Mya.[29] These ages are very recent in geological terms, suggesting that the mountain may still be volcanically active, though in a very quiescent and episodic fashion.[30]
I have wondered if these shield volcanoes have lava tubes deep inside of them that might have had subsequent lava flows may have entombed to some extent without collapsing them.
In case the reader hasn't figured it out, I am trying to puzzle out how to get lots of Mass to orbit of Mars from these mountains.
I see it as being sensible to partner these with settlements in the Marriner Rift Valley. It appears that those places may have what the Mountains appear to lack. Air braking, and Hydrogen.
We have seen this before: https://www.space.com/mars-water-below- … ris-canyon
With a bit of Candor:
New analyses of FREND's data show high levels of hydrogen at a site called Candor Chaos, located near the heart of the massive canyon system dubbed Valles Marineris.
"We found a central part of Valles Marineris to be packed full of water — far more water than we expected," Alexey Malakhov, a senior scientist at the Space Research Institute of the Russian Academy of Sciences and a co-author of the new paper, said in an ESA statement(opens in new tab). "This is very much like Earth's permafrost regions, where water ice permanently persists under dry soil because of the constant low temperatures."
So, in my view, it might be possible that Ships like Starship could land in these air braked locations in the Valley, and pick up Hydrogen and hop it up to the tops of these Shield Volcano's???
Then to arrange to bring needed resources that cannot be had from Phobos and Deimos, up to Martian orbits from those shield Volcanos, using Metalox, Spin launch, and perhaps other mass driver methods.
So, the orbits of Mars may be a very good place to build the synthetic gravity and micro gravity devices.
Done.

I have had an opinion for some time that while the surface of Mars is of great interest, it may be that the orbits of Mars, may be of great value. I tend to call Mars itself as "Far Mars", and the orbits of Mars as "Near Mars". That is because if you use a Hohmann transfer, it may be possible to air brake into orbit, without needing to land, once habitats in orbit have been established.

As well, using an efficient propulsion method, you might also bring mass efficiently to the orbits of Mars using a ballistic capture method.

So, it will be more accessible for humans from the Earth/Moon, than Mars itself may be.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-10-15 12:45:15)

Calliban · 2022-10-16 07:42:20

A Mars orbital industrial base. This makes a certain amount of sense. It is energetically easier to deliver volatiles and other resources to Mars orbit from Mars surface, rather than to accomplish the equivelent thing from Earth. Mars has substantial volatile inventory. The moon's resources are meagre. Martian orbit also has the benefit of two irregular moons, with almost zero gravity. Whilst these are probably low grade materials, they are energetically almost free if you are already in Mars orbit. So it has all of that going for it.

The downsides are that Mars orbit is months away from Earth. A Starship type vehicle would complete fewer than a dozen round trips in it's lifetime. The moon is only a few days away. That means that transportation from Earth-Moon will always be cheaper than Earth-Mars. If there do develop large industries in Earth orbit, Mars will have a competitive advantage over Earth in supplying bulk volatiles. But other goods, it is difficult to see how Mars can compete because transportation costs will be higher.

Void · 2022-10-16 09:26:01

Well, my thinking is that adapting planed emerging systems to be a bit more flexible, will get the situation to a future where we have much greater ground truth to guide the patterns of involvement with various candidate options.

The projections we make for possible futures are often changing, if we like it or not. New inventions and discoveries cannot be precisely predicted, so the options are to dabble in this and that, and see what works out for the best mix, for the people and their machines when they arrive at a moment of possible futures.

It appears that the Moon, Phobos, Deimos, and Mars itself may become attainable at somewhat the same time.

As for the Moon, I have read that they think there is enough water there for 1 space shuttle flight a day, for 2200 years, and it may be a magnitude more actually.

It is clear that SpaceX at least wish to attempt landings on Mars itself. In that process a better measurement of what can be done with the Moon, Phobos, Deimos, and Mars can be made. The important thing is to try to arrive at that new reality with significant flexibility to alter plans to the best advantage possible.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-10-16 09:32:45)

Void · 2022-10-17 11:47:54

Somewhat in response to #556 by Calliban: This from the Angry Astronaut: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Fo … &FORM=VIRE

I was supprised that at the moment the cost of bringing mass to Earth from orbit is very high. Of course, ships ilke Starship may be expected to help that problem out.

For Mars, I have the opinion that if Microgravity Manufacturing is going to be important for Earth/Moon, it will be important for Mars/Phobos/Deimos. Granted stuff could be imported from Earth/Moon, at least at first, but it would only make sense to have intentions for Mars habitations/activities in orbit(s).

There has been some hope of propellants from the moons of Mars. Some think, perhaps ice, I have considered Oxygen, but I am rather interested in Metals as propellants. Here is one entity that seems interested in it: https://neumannspace.com/metal-propella … %20payload.

I recently read an article that suggested that metals as propellants may begin to approach the performance of chemical propulsions. So, they are not only slow poke and efficient.

So, the moons of Mars may have potential for this, as well as our Moon may also. So, that means in orbit refueling that would not necessarily involve the Earth and Mars, but these "Space Rocks" instead.

I am currently of the opinion that a good place for a Mars base would be in the Marriner Rift Valley. I have also suggested that it might be possible to hop up from there to Orbit directly, to hop on to the upper portions of some of the high mountains, such as Olympus Mons. Then to launch from those mountain peaks some materials not easily obtained to orbit from the low parts of Mars, or easily available on the moons of Mars.

I have said that perhaps Hydrogen could be tanked up to the tops of these mountains. However, it might not be impossible that ices may exist in some places on these mountains. If it does, however, it may be hard to get to. We just don't know enough yet.

I have been wondering if moisture can transfer to the regolith in these mountains during large dust storms. It is said that water is spewed into space in those events, so I presume that some of the vapors encounter these mountains as well.

Proof is hard to come by, but that is the point. There is a whole lot we don't know, and in my opinion, these may be things that should be explored.

Glaciers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glaciers_ … 20glaciers.
Quote:

Evidence for past glaciation also appears on the peaks of several Martian volcanoes in the tropics. Like glaciers on Earth, glaciers on Mars are not pure water ice. Many are thought to contain substantial proportions of debris, and a substantial number are probably better described as rock glaciers.
Glaciers on Mars - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glaciers_on_Mars
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glaciers_on_Mars

Are they all "Bone Dry"? Well, I don't know at all.

I like this mountain: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavonis_Mons#Glaciers
Quote:

Glaciers
Using MGS and Odyssey data, combined with developments in the study of glaciers, scientists suggest that glaciers once existed on Pavonis Mons and probably still do to some extent.[14][15] Evidence for this includes concentric ridges (moraines "dropped" by glaciers), a knobby area (caused by ice sublimating), and a smooth section that flows over other deposits (debris-covered glacial ice). The ice could have been deposited when the tilt of Mars changed the climate, thereby causing more moisture to be present in the atmosphere. Studies suggest the glaciation happened in the Late Amazonian period, the most recent period in Mars chronology. Multiple stages of glaciation probably occurred.[16] The ice present today represents one more resource for possible future colonization of the planet.

But as I have said, Hydrogen could be brought to a mountain peak base, and to orbit with tankers, if it is not available in those locations.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-10-17 12:33:16)

Calliban · 2022-10-17 15:27:23

Interesting. From a terraforming viewpoint, simply exposing ice at low lattitudes and allowing the sun to evaporate it, would result in a global warming effect. But the Martian surface may be home to cold brines, very close to the surface.
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/brines-mars

If these can be pumped into craters and allowed to evaporate, then increased water vapour in the atmosphere will lead to an increased radiative forcing. The effect will result in positive feedback. More water vapour means warmer temperatures. That means more brine in the ground that can be pumped out to evaporate. We could use use dry ice to pump out the liquid using a gas lift pump.

Void · 2022-10-17 19:04:29

Yes, that adds to the notion that we do not yet know Mars as well as we should. We may be missing problems that need to be addressed and very likely opportunities as well. Take a look at this sir: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_ … %20%C2%B0C.
Quote:

Hydrogen peroxide and water form a eutectic mixture, exhibiting freezing-point depression down as low as -56 °C; pure water has a freezing point of 0 °C and pure hydrogen peroxide of -0.43 °C. The boiling point of the same mixtures is also depressed in relation with the mean of both boiling points (125.1 °C). It occurs at 114 °C

These are things for me to learn, perhaps other people can look at them as well: https://www.vedantu.com/physics/eutectic
Quote:

A eutectic mixture definition is defined as, a mixture of two or more components that, while not normally interacting to create a new chemical substance, inhibit the crystallization phase of one another at certain ratios, resulting in a system with a lower melting point than any of the components.
Eutectic - Meaning, Definition, Example, Composition and FAQs - V…
www.vedantu.com/physics/eutectic
www.vedantu.com/physics/eutectic

If I recall, it is speculated that dust storms may create Hydrogen Peroxide, and that may cause the final existence of Perchlorate salts.
Lets take a look: https://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/ne … esearchers.
Quote:

Electricity generated in dust storms on Mars may produce reactive chemicals that build up in the Martian soil, according to NASA-funded research. The chemicals, like hydrogen peroxide (H2O2), may have caused the contradictory results when NASA's Viking landers tested the Martian soil for signs of life, according to the researchers.

Now if Perchlorate and other salts are added to the presumed eutectic mixture of Hydrogen Peroxide and water, what is the result???

I certainly don't know but have a notion that it may have a low freezing point. I think that if the liquid were formed in a dust storm, could there be a precipitation of a very dirty cold mud?

And could that form Glaciers? Even wet based Glaciers???

There are things to have a look at.

------

As far as terraforming Mars, I believe that we should first plan to para–tera-form both on Mars, and in its orbits.

And I am inclined to mention a progression of sub-orbital jumps, until a final jump to orbit as a thing to study the value of. Granted you might just want to go straight up to orbit from the Mariner Rift Valley floor.

But let's consider a "Spin-Launch" on top of a mountain, where you bring Hydrogen to that base with a tanker, if you do not find Glaciers, containing Hydrogen. And then how about a tether system to catch the loads. I am currently thinking of something like a hook or net system with drag, sort of like catching a fish. With the robot system starting with almost no drag but gradually fetching the object to orbit.

However, it may not be optimal for Hydrogen, so perhaps tankers might bring it to orbit, if it cannot be gotten in the two moons.

The point is that the orbits of Mars are very possibly very good places to build synthetic gravity habitats in.

And also, the sun provides a bias to help send loads from the Earth/Moon to those orbits. For that, ballistic capture method without the compulsion of air braking can be used.

Ballistic Capture allows much broader permissions for sending loads, unlike the Hohmann Transfer method.

So, then you try building on both the surface and in orbits, and whatever works out the best, you might double down on.

In some possibilities Mars is mostly a mining planet to feed the orbital habitats.

But I do favor a Mars Direct to a base on the surface prior to expanding into orbit(s).

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-10-17 19:21:29)

Void · 2022-10-18 11:29:21

In my opinion, Robotics and perhaps particularly Tesla Robotics and knockoffs of those will likely product a lot of ability in the Earth/Moon subsystem, due to low time latency.

Certain material will be less abundant than what may be desired.

I am thinking that a device which may come into its own in the orbits of Mars, but which would also possibly work OK near us would be a containment filled with a mix resembling Pykrete, or a solid mix of regolith and plastic materials.

You could fill it and even if it thawed, in the case of Pykrete, unless heated excessively it should be able to retain its structure and in the case of Pykrete be refrozen. While this would be good radiation protection it also could be a building member, sort of like an I-Beam or a Shingle.

I have not specified a shape, and do not wish to. It only contains a mix, which can also include tensile elements such as Bamboo or Carbon Fibers. You could for instance have a hoop. That hoop also could have tensile netting of Carbon or other fibers/wires around it to help it keep its integrity. While this might serve on Mars in certain cases, I see it more for orbital constructions.

The case for making a metal/silicate casing from Lunar materials, and also adding some volatiles to the structure is existing, in my opinion, but Mars and worlds even further out seem more ideal, to fill out the Volatile inventories needed.

So, my thinking is the mass production of "Dry" objects, mostly of metals and ceramic type materials from the Moon, and to then sail them to Mars. In Mars orbits they would be further outfitted to better support humans and their machines. In some cases some of them would then go further to Ceres and other asteroids, and then Callisto, and the Trojans, and then if sufficient rocky materials can be obtained on locations, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, and then perhaps beyond. The use of Magnetic sail to slowly move these objects out in the solar system seems a possible option.

So, then I anticipate Mars supplying Hydrogen, Nitrogen, Plastics, and such with which to fortify these objects.

Going the Pykrete or Plastic-Regolith routes, Phobos and Deimos regolith could be processed for desired materials, and then the tailings mixed in containers with either regolith or plastics, and perhaps tensile materials, to create orbital sub-structures.

Of course, layering may be valuable, so you would have some kind of mechanical shielding to protect these plastic "Canisters" that would be both radiation shields, and structural members.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-10-18 11:46:01)

Void · 2022-10-18 12:03:09

I began the idea with a metal cylinder, and then imagined spreading Pykrete on its inner surface. Then a bit of spin and a lot of cold though the cylinder walls, and a structure that would protect from radiation, and in bulk be made from low grade materials. Its inner surface could be warmed enough for Tundra vegetation, which though not ideal is a start. These bulk materials could be supplied by Mars and its moons.

But that could be upgraded.

So, then the metal cylinder, constructed near the Moon, from Moon materials? Then flown to Mars with magnetic sails.

Then a better construction might involve plastic hoops put inside the cylinder, those filled with Pykrete. Inside that then some Styrofoam-like insulating materials. Then some soil. A bit of a spin, and then a farm. Perhaps Bamboo as one crop. Fiber from the Bamboo to serve in making more Pykrete.

The outer walls of the cylinder serving as a radiator to keep the hoops frozen. An energy source for the plants and also for the machinery. That solar, nuclear, or chemical, or all of them.

The metals procured from Phobos, and Deimos of course used for many things, including as propellants.

So, cold is the way to go when you have the possibility of icy rubble, and also have the makings for Plastics. Ceres might likely be next, and that will be even colder.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-10-18 12:09:00)

Void · 2022-10-18 16:28:43

So, natures example might be the beaver dam in winter.

But we are possibly more than a savant creature, and should be able to add other factors in.

A real possibility is that the momentum of Phobos may be used to snag molecules from the atmosphere of Mars. This could include the usual suspects present in that atmosphere, and perhaps also Hydrogen, either rising from the environment of Mars or implanted as Protons into the atmosphere by the solar wind. Here is a mention of it: https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com … 0at%20Mars.
Quote:

Key Points
Proton aurora form via interactions between the solar wind and H corona; as such, changes in the H corona strongly influence proton aurora
Proton aurora occur in ~14% of dayside profiles in our data (varying with season), making them the most commonly observed aurora at Mars
Proton aurora occurrence rates are highest in dayside southern summer observations, nearing 100% at low solar zenith angles at this time
Plain Language Summary
We present the results of a multi-year study of a new type of aurora recently identified at Mars. These “proton aurora” form when protons from the solar wind interact with hydrogen in the extended portions of the Martian atmosphere and travel to lower regions. Proton aurora are observed on the dayside of Mars in 14% of the data, which is far more often than initially expected and also more than any other type of aurora at Mars. Proton aurora occur most frequently (over 80% of the time, and in some cases almost 100% of the time) on the dayside side of the planet during the southern hemisphere's summer season (northern hemisphere winter). Around this time period, the lower atmosphere has previously been found to inflate, and dust storm season begins. During this time, hydrogen surrounding the planet also seasonally expands, allowing for more interactions between the solar wind and hydrogen in the upper atmosphere, and creating more proton aurora in this season. Through this study we hope to better understand the Sun-Mars system and the variations in proton aurora as observed over many years.

But we also have the apparent situation where the solar wind is also absorbed into Phobos: https://www.sci.news/space/powerful-sol … the%20flow.
Quote:

When the solar wind strikes the day side of Phobos, the plasma is absorbed by the surface. This creates a void on the night side of Phobos that the plasma flow is obstructed from directly entering.
However, the composition of the wind — made of two types of electrically charged particles, namely ions and electrons — affects the flow. The electrons are over a thousand times lighter than the ions.
“The electrons act like fighter jets – they are able to turn quickly around an obstacle — and the ions are like big, heavy bombers – they change direction slowly. This means the light electrons push in ahead of the heavy ions and the resulting electric field forces the ions into the plasma void behind Phobos, according to our models,” Dr. Farrell said.

So, where do the Protons go? Can they be collected from inside the moon?

In any case, I feel it may be very possible to gather components for water and organic chemistry in the orbits of Mars, perhaps even without rockets.

So then making in part structures out of a sort of space age Pykrete, is not so stupid. Of course, you would have to protect the mass from "Freezer Burn".

Gotta go do something else.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-10-18 16:38:28)

Void · 2022-10-19 19:23:45

So, I do think that especially for Mars and further out, Pykrete structure should be strongly considered, but it will need assistive structures to protect it from heat and drying out.

Done.

Void · 2022-10-19 19:25:18

Anyone is welcome to appropriate this article for their use. I think it is a splendid one, involving geothermal along the lines of things mentioned before here, but it is the best one I have seen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtQmGPmyLA0

I do think that it might be considered to find a way to do this from islands as well, and perhaps the sea floor, to do a "Power to Fuels" activity, and of course to also do it on land for various purposes.

I do believe that it is as they say compatible with wind and photovoltaic. I might work along with solar concentration thermal methods, as you could stuff excess heat, say from a summer season into the loops, and then tap it for the winter.

For Mars this looks rather good as well, I feel, for similar reasons. If you have solar thermal or electric, you could stuff excess energy into the loops. Because of dust storms, and seasonality, it may also make sense to stuff heat from Nuclear Fission into these loops, so that if you have a multi-month dust storm, you could then draw from the loops more to make it through.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-10-19 19:42:01)

Void · 2022-10-20 10:46:36

Well, thinking about it some more, it seems to me that geothermal, hopefully tied to wind, solar, tides, and wave, may make it more possible to create fresh water from sea water, and even better, to recycle wastewater.

The elites may very well try to stifle this new industrial age, because the creation of wealth by manipulation of objects, interferes with their desire to be able to manipulate people at a lower price. It inflates the cost that they must pay, to manipulate people to do their bidding. So, they don't like it, especially because as well, they in general do not have the inherent skills to manipulate objects for a profit. They also tend to not wish to develop those skills but tend to want to put them down as beneath dignity of the ruling classes. But there are wonderful exceptions, and those people sometimes produce new learning, which is very good.

I came to like Ronald Reagan up to a point, but indeed his game was to push the population into a service industry position, (Root Word = Servant), in part by using overseas labor to deflate the cost of wealth created by the manipulation of objects. To what degree this caused the Soviet Union to break up, I do not know, but as Peter Zeihan has explained, the action then dropped lots of raw materials into the world markets. In effect the episode of time since the Great Depression was the rising of the South, and the fall of the North. But now the reverse is in play, I believe, these oscillations are to be expected, it is nothing to go out and kill people about. The universe is not designed so that people do not have challenges. Not even the elites of this day, should expect to live a "Marshmallow Pie" life eternally. Although I don't expect the kind of fall for them that would satisfy revenge. I expect that they will get revived competition for power from people who manipulate objects, and of course they will be jealous of that, but that is just too bad

If you are wondering what this has to do with Terraforming, it is rather simple. On the one hand those subparts that feel they are due an internal Heaven on Earth for their groups/classes, are interfering with industrial process, in order to repress a power competitor. I suppose that they may choose to say that they are promoting de-industrialization and that will save the Earth. I don't agree that it will save the Earth. I think it is exactly the wrong direction.

We can expect an attempt by them to try to use environmentalism to try to repress a new industrial age.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Mo … M%3DHDRSC3

It doesn't hurt to giggle about it a little bit.

It occurs to me that geothermal installations on the sea bottoms may be very good places to distill fresh water.

In addition, places like the Great Plains, might benefit by using geothermal in part to recycle water. That and wind and maybe solar as well.

There are many places which may then have dual or triple or more energy sources, if geothermal does work. I am looking at the great plains because they do have wind power, and if geothermal power should exist, then it may become practical to tightly recycle water. Therefore, those locations might become more habitable.

We might also speculate on a geothermal modification of OTEC, perhaps not so much to generate electrical power, but perhaps more to generate fresh water. My preference would be that these also use other energy sources in concert with the geothermal if it is practical.

https://www.maritime-executive.com/edit … conversion

So, maybe less electrical and more water. That may be easier. And then pipes to send the water to a user, and then the user, we hope doing a good job of recycling the water as well. That would be the ideal.

This being encouraged for Earth, then we might hope to adapt it to Mars.

Where our sea bottoms have stored cold, Mars is itself pretty much full of cold, and lots of fossil cold in the form of ice, which can be used for its phase change potential.

It is my opinion that indeed if it is desired, a method might be employed to use ice covered bodies of water to capture that fossil cold and also the persistent cold of the Universe. Solar, Nuclear, and Geothermal, may be sources of heat for that process.

If the similar process is developed for Earth, then it should be adaptable to Mars.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-10-20 11:33:16)

Calliban · 2022-10-20 12:00:34

Interesting that on Mars even 0°C is warm compared to the average temperature anywhere on the planet. A heat engine that recieves heat at 0°C and rejects it at -50°C, would have a carnot efficiency of 18%. Realistic efficiency would be 10%. I think that if brine could be accessed at a temperature of 0°C it could be made to work. When we think of geothermal, we think of hot water. But cold water at freezing point, is still warm compared to the average surface temperature of Mars.

Void · 2022-10-20 12:27:44

Yes, well now you have tempted me.

Salty water can be colder, and yet support microbial life.

Antarctic water of the sea, transported to Mars would likely not boil, but would evaporate and form an ice top. That would slow down the evaporation rate, but still without a covering the whole thing would evaporate off eventually. But if the polar condensation points were included into two polar oceans, then the sea would persist as long as the heat source was deployed into the water below the ice.

So, I think that is about ~28 degF, (Sorry, I am a Hill Billy), ~(--2.22222222 degC).

The Canadian geothermal uses a Hydrocarbon Fluid like Benzene, I believe. So you can use that cold water.

Now in Antarctica, is a Hypersaline Lake, called Lake Vida: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Vida

I believe it has a biosphere in spite of the water being about 7 times as salty as the sea, and at a temperature of -13 degC.

This is the life that lives in that, apparently: Species lists
The following eukaryote species have been catalogued within 1 degree[17] of Lake Vida:

Kingdom Animalia

Phylum Arthropoda : Alloptes stercorarii (arachnida, mite), Tydeus setsukoae (arachnida, mite)
Phylum Rotifera : Philodina spp.
Phylum Tardigrada : Unknown sp.
Kingdom Fungi

Division Ascomycota : Lepraria sp.
Kingdom Plantae

Division Bryophyta : Bryum argenteum, Bryum pseudotriquetrum, Bryum subrotundifolium, Ceratodon purpureus, Didymodon gelidus, Grimmia antarctici, Grimmia sp., Pottia heimii, Sarconeurum glaciale,
Division Marchantiophyta : Cephaloziella exiliflora
Kingdom Protista

Phylum Ciliophora : Chilodonella sp., Epistylis sp., Euplotes sp., Halteria sp., Homalozoon sp., Nassula sp., Oxytricha sp., Pleuronema sp., Podophrya sp., Pyxidium sp., Saprophilus sp., Spathidium sp., Sphaerophrya sp., Vorticella sp.
Phylum Sarcomastigophora : Acanthocystis sp., Actinophyrys sp.,
Phylum Euglenozoa : Bodo sp. (kinetoplastid)

So, if you wanted to, you can use -13 degC water on the cold side, provided you had the salt and heat to maintain a liquid sea at that temperuature.

You may also consider implanting radiator tubing into the ice on top of the sea, to get even colder, perhaps much colder. If your sea has thick ice, then the temperature say within a few meters of the top may be very, very cold. The process of implanting the radiator tubing might involve simply placing it on the ice and flooding the area with a brine water. If you like you could have a temporary tent over that to reduce evaporation.

The ice in this situation would actually be a giant heat sink, as the water below would not push that much heat up into its higher layers.

If you really wanted to push it you could put a layer of Styrofoam or other insulator down, then the tubing, and then flood the area with low temperature brine which would freeze. Of course, brine squeezed out of the freezing process might be corrosive on the tubing, so you would want to handle that problem.

So indeed, how cold is polar ice? Here is an opinion: https://everycareinternational.com/how- … e-on-mars/
Quote:

How cold is the ice on Mars?
AUTHOR
admin
READING
3 min
VIEWS
1
PUBLISHED BY
2022
This gives Mars four distinct seasons, similar to those on Earth. But polar winters on Mars are much colder (–153° Celsius or –243° Fahrenheit) than the coldest winters on Earth.

But of course, we expect the permafrost to go much deeper at the poles, so that is an impediment to geothermal at the poles. But not for Nuclear, and in reality, not for solar in the summertime.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-10-20 12:41:36)

Void · 2022-10-20 14:12:46

Of course, I will go on, I am a bit out of control.

Query, "Northern ocean of Mars": https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=no … HoverTitle

Here is a nice image: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6d/9a/4e … 058cdb.jpg

A few things. We don't know how much water is available for sure. We would likely have to do something with the Southern ice cap as well.
Perhaps it could be melted into a chain of lakes and pour into the North lowlands with some planetary engineering. We don't really know if we would actually want to work towards this.

While the atmosphere of Mars may be ballooned up a bit, I anticipate a largely or completely ice-covered ocean.

To heat the water, may be solar on the surface, Nuclear, and perhaps also Geothermal. But what about orbital solar?

We have Phobos and Deimos, and the Starship and other ships can be SSTO on Mars.

While radiators can be put into the ice, how about rectenna's?

The electricity to go into the sea bottom, perhaps into underground caves under the sea bottom.

A northern sea would be rather shallow for the most part, perhaps ~1 bar of pressure?

Query: "How much water does Mars have?"
Response: https://marsed.asu.edu/mep/water#:~:tex … 0trace.%29
Quote:

About 30 meters (100 feet) GEL
Taking what can be detected directly by spacecraft, scientists estimate that the measurable total of Martian water — in other words, its hydrosphere — is about 30 meters (100 feet) GEL. Nearly all of this lies in the polar caps and region. (Atmospheric water contributes only a negligible trace.)
Mars Education | Developing the Next Generation of Explorers
marsed.asu.edu/mep/water
marsed.asu.edu/mep/water

So, perhaps you could indeed fill that ocean and have water left over.

Now if the salts exist, then you can maintain stratification and the bottom waters can be warm while the upper water and ice will be a cold radiator. As you could be pushing electricity into the Ocean to be used by humans and their machines, you would have a lot of waste heat. That you could reject to the universe while still generating more electricity.

But is this the thing to do?

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-10-20 14:26:16)

Void · 2022-10-21 12:04:22

So, I am thinking about the balance that might be best between surface installations, and orbital installations for Mars.

I guess the thing that can be certain is that there should be something for each. Probably some people in each location.

In orbit, is relatively constant predictable energy, microgravity which is and isn't desired. Radiation. The two moons.

Here is an active method to shield from GCR, apparently: https://www.nasa.gov/directorates/space … HZE%20ions.

Some passive method can be used with water: https://duquark.com/2019/05/20/radiatio … s%20X-rays.

I suppose that for the orbits of Mars, some combination might be used, with an emphasis on passive protection from the direction of the sun, and total surround for the GCR, perhaps active protection.

For synthetic gravity machines, this should have to surround the device as much as needed.

For very large microgravity enclosures, I think that it may be possible to have a vehicle with water surround, and also use detection of eruptions from the sun. To work in microgravity in a very large enclosure, then people would travel with the protective device to a location of activity within the microgravity structure.

Agriculture might be microgravity, but the question appears, how much production of organic food and materials is desired?

As in other posts previously it also becomes a question, can people be healty, if they move from synthetic gravity to microgravity on a shorter periodic basis?

So, how much healthier can people be in the Orbits of Mars, vs. on the Martian surface or below the surface, below a sea?

To be discovered, I might hope.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-10-21 12:17:02)

Void · 2022-10-22 10:33:09

I am having a look at this today: "Starship and orbital space solar energy"

Bingo! AA had something: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-IuFUx0R9U

Dyson Spheres are supposed by some to be an expected behavior of advanced entities in space. I would say that is a thing to drift towards over long lengths of time.

It seems to me that Mars/Phobos/Deimos will be very good for that, and it would be very good for Mars.

The notion of Orbital Rings has been covered by Isaac Arthur. He goes much further than I feel comfortable with, but perhaps that is as I am a Boomer, aging, and just not so much tuned for the now. We will see, or those who will be here will see: https://isaacarthur.net/video/orbital-rings/

I am not too comfortable with much of "Active Support", but I think that at my age, I should at least keep as open a mind as I can and also review the materials for it.

I think a combination of Mass Drivers and Tethers from Orbit, may work for Mars. I think a space elevator, might also, but I wonder if such can have sufficient mass throughput to justify the effort.

I think that having at least one orbital ring for Mars would make sense as a long-term objective, but I am more conventional about it. Mars it seems can allow mass drivers / Tethers, and SSTO spaceships. That will make a big difference for access to space.

Mass inputs to Mars orbits can be Phobos, Deimos, Mars itself, Near Mars Asteroids, Trojans, the Asteroid Belt even perhaps.

We also should have a very large labor pool of robots on the Earth's Moon, and the ability to "Sail" mass from that location to Mars.

Of the things we want to add to Mars, energy is a topper, and also to create some type of magnetic field may be of value. Those can perhaps be done from Martian orbits. That is not to say that you would not have ground energy on Mars.

I also think that orbital communities across the solar system would likely interact with each other. This then would also connect the Earth and Mars to such a "Social Backbone".

Starship has been designed so that a Ship can lift off from Earth, be refilled, and land on Mars. And that is going to be a very hard task to make work. But material connections between the Orbital Earth/Moon and Orbital Mars, will be much less hard. At each end, if it is desired, Aero Brake to orbit exists as a possibility. Also, raw materials may be converted to propellants and machinery.

So, an orbital ring, and its precursors at the beginnings, could transfer much energy to the surface of Mars, and also provide orbital energy to be used by inhabitants of that ring and its precursors.

Over time, Mars itself can become a major source of mass to orbit.

If desired, a magnetic field can be implemented in some fashion.

If desired, atmosphere can be altered to a degree.

If desired, oceans mostly ice covered can be created.

As a result of this enormous caverns and tunnels can be dug, which in part would be under the oceans.

This does not at all stop the notion of creating pressurized "Domes", (Or something more practical), on the surface of Mars.

Where human habitats with proper sheltering capabilities can be created in orbit as well, it would also be possible to establish vast pressurized space where agriculture could occur in microgravity. Those agricultural spaces may or may not have strong radiation protections.

At the moment, I am liking the idea of artificial seas and even a northern ocean. Areas under those waters would likely be warmed up by about 60 degC or more, as that heat would penetrate the ground over time, it may be that gasses in the regolith would be released.

As for the Carbon in the Martian atmosphere, over time perhaps it could be replaced with more Oxygen. The Carbon becoming organic materials and plastics, both on Mars itself and in the orbits.

Of course, we need more information about Mars, Phobos, and Deimos.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-10-22 11:31:10)

Void · 2022-10-22 12:09:54

Per the previous post, I have gone ahead and looked at Isaac Arthurs video again: https://isaacarthur.net/video/orbital-rings/

As I have said before, I am uncomfortable with active support at the scale he suggests, but perhaps I am just old and brittle.

But if we were to try it on smaller worlds, I just might be more trusting.

I see Mars as too big to start with. Maybe Ceres is too big, but perhaps smaller asteroids? How about Vesta? We know more about that and Ceres than others, I believe.

It is considered likely that Vesta boiled off all of its volatiles a long time ago. But it appears that a coating of dust containing Carbonaceous materials does exist on that world. Perhaps we have to think of that as a "Maybe".

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature1 … %20impacts.
Quote:

Dark material on Vesta from the infall of carbonaceous volatile-rich material

For this post, let's consider that Vesta has the spectrum of raw materials needed to satisfy an occupation by humans and their machines.

For this then I can feel comfortable with the notion of using "Active Structure". It would perhaps be a sort of "Playpen" for such a technology to be developed at an "Infant" level.

Perhaps a different asteroid can be the place where this would be researched, but Vesta might do for now as an imaginary platform: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4_Vesta#: … 0needed%5D

So, to me then it would make sense to find an initial world where strange methods could be researched. If it works well, then you could move up to larger worlds.

But even one such small world, would likely allow for some enormous expansions of humans and machinery in space.

A Mars orbital community would of course be more connectable to this in the Asteroid belt, than would be the surface of Mars, but of course they would all be connected.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-10-22 12:22:15)

Void · 2022-10-23 11:47:52

As I have said, Isaac Arthur has a lot of imaginative stuff. I think it is good to view ideas, even if they reach further than a comfort level, simply to prevent the mind from becoming a fossil.

I worked a lot around maintenance and repairs, and so have that perspective as per active structure. I generally lack trust for it. Even so, machines that we have now which have moving parts can sort of be considered to include both static and active structure already.

I am generally OK with such things, as long as they serve the purposes of humans and their machines. When the activity becomes a client requiring the service of humans, then it can be wondered if it is worth doing.

I am examining the possible use of orbital structure along with Hydraulic surface structure, to make Mars useful.
It is obvious that the hill sphere of Mars intercepts lots of sunlight. So, I see microwave energy beamed down to Mars to be a very large potential as a terraform tool.

It would have the power to melt lakes, seas, and perhaps even an ocean, and would also be able to suck moisture up into the atmosphere to create a thermal warming device out of clouds.

Possibility: https://www.lpi.usra.edu/planetary_news … %20Systems.

If Mars currently had the surface conditions to produce melt water, then I would expect an occurrence of ice-covered lakes similar to some in Antarctica.

There are many variations of those, here are two:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Vida
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Vanda

And while the orbital Mars could assist the Mars proper, the Mars proper could assist the orbital community.

If fact if I was a Martian, my desire would be to have the ability to travel between each. So, to me setting something like that up makes sense. A thing to seek.

Upon the existence of significant human activity on and around Mars, I anticipate that activities will spill into the asteroid belt. Some of the larger asteroids/Dwarf Planets, could serve as testing places to develop methods that orbital and surface/subsurface communities can be connected together as one entity. This then might become transferable to Mars.

So, I consider that it might be the proper objective.

Done

Last edited by Void (2022-10-23 12:16:36)

Void · 2022-10-23 12:45:13

So, raw materials are photons, water, CO2, regolith, and Martian Atmosphere. In orbit also Phobos and Deimos.

The lakes are extremely efficient at capturing and holding energy, even though only a smaller amount of light gets through the ice. The seasonal melt water also helps to warm these.

Both hemispheres of Mars could host a large collection of lakes and even adjacent seas. These bodies of water would typically be covered with ice, but the potential also exists to cover them with domes as well, at least for smaller ones.

In the Southern Hemisphere, I think it is likely that fresh water would be the typical, where in the Northern Hemisphere, salty water may be typical.

The thickness of ice will matter.

I favor divided bodies of water and not a singular ocean for the North, but if there was to be such a north ocean, it might typically be about 100 feet deep, on a guess. If you had 55 feet of ice over 50 feet of water, the insulation would be massive. You would not get sunshine into the water but would keep things melted by other means.

But a thing Mars has to offer is cold. If you can import photons, (Microwaves, Mirrors, etc.) then you can use that cold. So, for a body of water, you might want thin ice, as then it would radiate more heat to the universe. As long as you had sufficient source energy to deploy, that would be just fine.

The Hill Sphere of Mars has to have more than enough solar energy for any such need.

Any terraform of Mars is likely to change the pressure and composition of the Martian atmosphere. But just presuming that it will stay as it is, this may be perfectly OK. A water cycle would develop where lots of energy would be delivered to the condensation points of the seas, to keep melting ice. In other places evaporation of the ice would tend to cool it, but that is OK, as long as you have sufficient input energy to keep melting the precipitation that would occur at condensation points.

You could collect the microwave energy and melt ice directly with heaters, but of course it would make more sense to use that energy in part to stimulate agriculture, in the water, or in domes. In general, the waste heat would go into the waters.

While energy for machines and other life support, could come from the microwave sources in orbit, the seas might also be a store of heat, and cold that could be tapped. The waters could be the warm side, and the ice might be the cold side. You could embed condensers in the top layers of ice.

If you did not want ice to evaporate away where these condensers were you could put a vapor barrier on top of the ice.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-10-23 12:59:44)

Void · 2022-10-23 13:02:45

Looking at the previous post, this is an interesting substance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide_clathrate
Quote:

Carbon dioxide clathrate
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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This article may be too technical for most readers to understand. Please help improve it to make it understandable to non-experts, without removing the technical details. (June 2012) (Learn how and when to remove this template message)
Carbon dioxide hydrate or carbon dioxide clathrate is a snow-like crystalline substance composed of water ice and carbon dioxide.[citation needed] It normally is a Type I gas clathrate.[1] There has also been some experimental evidence for the development of a metastable Type II phase at a temperature near the ice melting point.[2][3] The clathrate can exist below 283K (10 °C) at a range of pressures of carbon dioxide. CO2 hydrates are widely studied around the world due to their promising prospects of carbon dioxide capture from flue gas and fuel gas streams relevant to post-combustion and pre-combustion capture.[4][5][6][7] It is also quite likely to be important on Mars due to the presence of carbon dioxide and ice at low temperatures.

So, I anticipate that there may be some of it buried on Mars.

Is this pure ice? It is a mile down, where it is cold and lots of pressure: https://earthsky.org/space/mars-ice-cap … e%20places.

So, I expect that over time these things will warm up under terraforming, especially if a sea is over them.

If fact however it may be possible to drill down to the deposits. Could the ice be replaced with an underground city? Well, 1 mile of regolith at .38 g. A fair amount of pressure.

Maybe.

I would anticipate taking the Carbon available on Mars for use. Leaving an Oxygen dominated atmosphere. You might not care if the greenhouse effect is diminished, as long as you have lots of orbital microwave energy. In fact the more Mars radiates heat and the more microwave energy that can be pushed onto Mars, the more energy for human activities.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-10-23 13:08:14)

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