Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Void · 2022-09-01 21:19:38

Well, this may be a future query phrase. But it does not work for the bing search engine yet. That seems to often happen, that there is a lag.

Query: "New type of photosynthesis found in the oceans could exist on alien worlds, Anton Petrov "

A different type of photo protein, which may be purple, is much more significant in the oceans of the Earth than was supposed. It is speculated that it might be an early precursor of Chlorophyl, or not, who knows yet.

But possibly interesting for Mars.

The video surprised me in that it indicated the U.V. is blocked by a significant depth of water. I thought that the shorter the wave the more penetration. So, of course I was wrong.

This is the pigment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodopsin

Apparently under some conditions of depth and chemicals Rhodopsin may be the most efficient.

So, some locations favor Chlorophyl and some Rhodopsin, and they don't usually appear together? I think that is what he said.

Rhodopsin in the eye is similar to that in the eye, he said, but the stuff in the ocean may be more primitive and ancient.

Before Oxygen and Ozone, A few meters of water would protect from U.V. and the Rhodopsin may have used green and blue light unlike Chlorophyl.

The pigment can apparently be pink, purple, or red.

So, it may be the Rhodopsin was first before Chlorophyl. But don't really know.

But for Mars, Rhodopsin may be useful, perhaps in water, until a good Ozone layer might be created. It would be interesting if it might be possible to create life that uses both pigments. It might be more productive.

If I can find the video later, I will try to put it here.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-09-01 21:31:51)

Void · 2022-09-02 11:34:44

Well, I haven't been able to get the video mentioned in the previous post yet. So, I will work with something else.

Reduction of Martian Regolith. There seem to be many things.

The European/British machine draws me: https://www.freethink.com/space/lunar-r … surface%29.
I have mentioned that a lot. It looks like it ideally handles small rocks, OK?
Image Quote: https://www.freethink.com/wp-content/up … ze=768,458

A part of Moxie could be used to produce CO and/or H2, to heat up and push through iron ore or other regolith, and to then reduce it and possibly increase the magnetic nature of the iron in the ore. Not sure what size limits there are for that for gravel and small rocks.

The biological method may be to split CO2 into O2 and CO, and apply it to regolith in pools of water, to feed microbes. The expectation is that since the nature of life is to create organic bodies, the microbes should not use all the Oxygen available to them. For Mars sources of Oxygen could be Oxygen mixed with CO, H2O, Regolith itself, and in the case of Mars Perchlorates. Some organisms may target the rocks and Perchlorates, leaving behind excess Oxygen.

Although I would guess that there are other paths, I think those may do well for Mars.

Screening regolith might allow the finer materials to be processed and the coarser rocks to be piled up to become sponges for cold. That would work better for Earth, but even on Mars, over time heat should be shed out of the pile of rock. A sort of radiator perhaps? Well I don't know what machinery such as tubes and such with fluids in them that you might use.

Anyway, I am sure that there is lots of room for improvements.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-09-02 11:46:25)

Void · 2022-09-03 15:40:26

I have seen mention of this before, and I am not sure how they are going to expel the vaporized rock.

How this hole generates infinite energy, utube, Ziroth
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ho … &FORM=VIRE

I understand that some will form glass on the drill hole walls, but that is just what I recall from a different article.

I have this article from a search: "geothermal energy for Mars"
https://www.thinkgeoenergy.com/geotherm … ing%20Mars

Well, here is another article about it: https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucedormi … f0b9ed4b25

But I guess geothermal for Mars is a thing that may become real. We don't know yet.

But someone better than me seemed to think so:

“The first human bases on Mars could carry a 100 kilowatt nuclear reactor,” said Zubrin. “But to have a Mars settlement, you’re going to want 10 megawatts and for that kind of power, you need to develop Mars’ geothermal potential.”

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-09-03 16:58:09)

Void · 2022-09-05 10:56:30

OK, I am going to do it again, appropriate someone's topic here: "Index» Human missions» Is Half Gravity 0.5 G Centrifugal enough to stay Healthy to Mars?"

The original post #1 for this was:

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 3,782
Email
In 1957 a Soviet 'space dog' was launched, in 1969 the USA Won the SpaceRace by Landing Men on the Moon. In all this time do we still not know how much Fake Gravity it takes to stay in Good Health? How much would it need to make plant and tree and grass grow health, to transport bee, fish, bird, dog, cat, pig, rabbit, human or other animal and avoid Urinary tract infections, space motion sickness in human, a Strong health system to fight autoimmune diseases, how much Gravity to Avoid significant Muscle Loss, visual impairment or intracranial pressure, Bone loss, Orthostatic Intolerance?
I tried checking for the answer on a NASA site but it was a waste of time, maybe nobody knows.
Other new mars discussions
Artificial gravity station?
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7246
1 gee artificial Gravity on Moon and Mars surface
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=10295
Artificial 1g Gravity on Mars vs in Space
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7655
50 years after...
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=6180
Artificial Gravity
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7136
Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-09-03 06:42:47)

I like the original question of the topic. Other members seem to want to go to 1 g. And that is OK, but it is not so much in the direction I want to go. I have to wonder what things can be done in orbits, and with the Moon as well as Mars. Orbital activities can occur also with the Moon and Mars, and those can be assistive to terraforming activities.

Making orbital habitats, is the equivalent to Para Terraforming as far as I am concerned.

I think that one of the problems with expanding into space is sometimes ideas become grandiose much too soon. That then causes an incorrect direction because information is assumed before building the object of the idea.

GW Johnson gave an idea some time ago for a Starship to tumble and generate up to .5 g. in a manner tolerable for humans. This would be an option to go to Mars with.

I want to use in it LEO, to gather test data, and to keep costs down.

Some other thoughts, if the Starship can endure, it perhaps 1 g could be achieved, but any humans on it would have to be specially trained to deal with motion sickness. I recall that that might be possible.

But going to .5 g max would be very valuable anyway. If you went to 1 g you might not have humans on the ship at all perhaps.

I did work in the world of measurements, so this is how I think.
Metrology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrology

This is some valuable incidental information: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4153541/
Quote: (From the donor topic): Quote:

Estimates of this threshold vary considerably depending on the methods employed [19] but there is a general agreement that accelerations along the long axis of the body above about 0.15 m.s−2 (0.02 g) are reliably detectable.
I have a feeling that to some degree at lower g forces the human mind will eventually adjust to less than .15 g. But of course that is not yet tested.

For me than the Starship becomes a measurement tool, if some special features added.
It appears that the Japanese have already done good work along these lines on the ISS. using fish.

This is also a quote from the donor topic:

We need to address your concerns, and to get test data we need test subjects, we can try this: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne … 20research.
Quote:
Life in space is hard on the human body. The lack of gravity's pull can quickly take its toll—bone density declines, muscles deteriorate and more. But compared to a fish, humans have it pretty easy, Michael Byrne reports for Motherboard.
For several years, scientists working with the Japanese Space Agency (JAXA) studied the effects of life aboard the International Space Station for a small school of medaka fish. Also known as Japanese rice fish, medaka are small, freshwater fish native to Japan. And they are invaluable for space research. Not only are they easy to breed, but they are transparent, giving researchers a clear view at their bones and guts as they adjust to life in space, Jessica Nimon writes for NASA’s International Space Station Program Science Office.

Image from the included link: https://th-thumbnailer.cdn-si-edu.com/9 … ic2_lg.jpg

So, it might be possible to establish multiple test points with multiple aquariums with these fish in them, distributed in multiple locations.

I would not think you would easily achieve microgravity on the Starship if it were spinning, so probably the test point on the ISS could be used. I would think that an Earth based aquarium population might do well enough at first for 1 g, so I would not bother with 1 g on the Starship.

In order to reduce costs, this Starship might also move cargo up and down, as long as the aquarium test points were hot harmed by it.

So, then while these test points might be studied in orbit, it might also be possible to bring the whole thing down for study on Earth. The test subjects (Fish) would travel along with the ship. If desired, they could go back up and do some more.

So, not a bad test instrument, in my opinion. And as long as it does not have a mishap, it might be used repeatedly.

---------

Perhaps this could be looked at as well: https://medicalxpress.com/news/2022-09- … nique.html
Quote:

Pulsed electromagnetic field application technique for preventing bone loss due to radiotherapy

I certainly don't know if it can apply, but I would want to know. If it did apply, I would think that bedtime might be a place to do it.

---------

Microgravity is supposedly going to be a good place to manufacture special things, so Starship might be useful to tap into transport for those. One solution will be to simply move humans in and out of Microgravity from and to the surface of the Earth.

Another solution is to make partial gravity spin devices, partial or all the way to 1 g if necessary.

Such machines can simulate the g's of worlds smaller than Earth, and also could provide partial gravitation simulations that may be useful for industrial processes. So, possibly money makers.

I have been interested in stators in orbit with rotors inside them or I suppose attached to them.
I like the shape of tubular bacteria for the stators. Nature often shows good examples: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=tu … RE&first=1

And just as in nature, one stator can be attached to others.
Where you then have rotors either internal or external attached, it can be a bit like a cells interior with different parts.
Shapes like that might fit OK in Starships, but they also might be inflatable? Or they could be manufactured in orbit as well, perhaps.

High speed rotors could be attached to the outside, but of the stators, but this adds more danger, and complications for communication of people and items between the rotor and stator. High speed rotors could also be in their own vacuum chamber inside of the pressurized stator. More expensive but better in the ways an external one is not.

Low speed rotors might be air cushioned like a Hovercraft, or on magnetic rails, or even wheels.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-09-05 12:33:36)

Void · 2022-09-06 08:47:09

In "Index» Human missions» Starship is Go..." Posts #1663-#1667, speculate on methods that could involve the Moon.
My post #1663 mentioned the Orion capsule. I am not satisfied with where I went with that. So, I will try again here.

Currently my thinking involves Dream Chaser, Terran-R, Starship, Centaur, and depots, along with other things.

While Mars and other places are of strong interest, I am going to more focus on a Moon Base <> Earth's Surface.

I guess I am wondering specifically what hardware might be useful and mature by the time the Moon has a significant base, and is able to incorporate Lunar materials into construction projects. I am going to imagine that at this point post people on the Moon will be temporary in stay, staying days or a few years.

There are plans for private space stations in Earth orbit at this time and also for a base on the Moon.

LINA is apparently a proposal involving NASA
https://3dprinting.com/news/new-regolit … -unveiled/
Quote:

LINA’s will be 3D printed with a lunar regolith polymer composite made with materials found or manufactured on the Moon, and the structures will feature an ultra-thin shell with 3d printed load-bearing arches.
The thin structure will be buried under a 2.7-meter thick, protective regolith overburden. The result is a lightweight, mass optimized structure that functions as defense against radiation and the extreme lunar environment.
LINA is proposed to be situated at Shackleton Crater, on the Moon’s south pole, which contains water ice (for fuel, oxygen, and drinking) and something approximating a “peak of eternal light” on the crater rim, where solar panels bathed in near-perpetual sunlight could be used for virtually round-the-clock power generation.
The design and testing of LINA is part of NASA’s 2020 Announcement of Collaboration Opportunity (ACO) project Relevant Environment Additive Construction Technology (REACT).
Initially, AI SpaceFactory had developed a polymer that could in principle be manufactured on Mars, and they used a simulated Martian regolith to demonstrate this on their MARSHA habitat project.
In collaboration with Techmer PM, AI SpaceFactory developed a Mars plastic made from a mixture of basalt fiber, which can be extracted from Martian rock, and renewable bioplastic (PLA) processed from plants grown on Mars. This process is being modified to work with lunar regolith simulants.
“Our Mars habitat prototype MARSHA proved that 3D printing with a polymer composite was a strong solution for habitation off-world,” said AI SpaceFactory CEO David Malott.
“Developing LINA and printing in an environment that is void of atmospheric pressures or weather systems advances that technology through a new context, with new and more precise variables.”
MARSHA
MARSHA habitat (Image credit: AI SpaceFactory)
Further testing is required on the material and the extruder system under vacuum conditions to determine the viability of the method. This will occur at the company’s new vacuum chamber which is located at NASA KSC.
The AI SpaceFactory extruder has been fitted to a custom gantry designed and built by NASA, and this printer has been installed in the vacuum chamber. This will in-part serve to simulate the conditions of the Moon where the plastic lunarcrete printer will hopefully end up. The first vacuum chamber prints will be attempted later this year.

So, if it works in testing, this could be the start of the habitation of the Lunar surface. A place to go to and come from.

I am sort of thinking that Terran-R might be among the vehicles that may be able to land at the Lunar location and take off from.

In the future if there is a significant base on the Moon, there will likely be the potential for a vast number of robots as well, and many of those to be operated by humans and AI, both on the Moon and from Earth. So, a large labor pool, and lots of Insitu activity to produce things. The need for imported hardware will dwindle over time.

However, if it still proves useful to import plastic materials, then that could continue.

But I would wonder if the import device could be one-way Starships. At some point, if like the manufacture of cars, mass production exists, the relative value of the reuse of a Starship might be less than the value of a one-way trip where the substances of the Starship might be cannibalized.

An interesting variation of the Starship might have a cabin/cargo section mostly constructed of plastics. It only has to punch through the Earth's atmosphere and survive the transit then to the Moon. It might not carry any other cargo than the plastic of the top section, and the metal propulsion portion. It is debatable if the Engines might be recycled to Earth.

As for the Terran-R, I am thinking it could be refilled in LEO, by Starship. It might also eventually have its Oxygen refilled on the Moon. I am thinking that while it could land on the Earth, mostly it might Aero burn into LEO, landing on occasion for overhauls. Centaur which I presume would be Hydro Lox would be able to serve as a tug for it. I am presuming Oxygen and Hydrogen from the Moon, but perhaps also from water lugged up to LEO from Earth.

There may at that time, be many ships that can move people up and down from LEO to the Earth's surface, but I think that Dream Chaser would be among the best, as it can distribute people back to many airports, and it's launching is less dangerous presumably than a Starship, simply because of the smaller size of its booster rocket. Super Heavy appears to have to eventually be based near the shore but at sea. I am presuming lots of space stations, mostly in LEO, but some in association with the Moon.

I have been rethinking Mass Drivers from the Moon, and also perhaps tethers. Of course, I think this is not yet a proposal but rather some preliminary notions.

The original notion of putting regolith into sacks and shooting those to a receiver in L5 is still interesting, but I want to think another way. We made pellets in the ore processing facility I worked at. That is because they worked good in a blast furnace. Not all of the substances in Lunar regolith are of value in the quantities they exist in in raw regolith. I also think that broken bags might litter the space environment with impactors that would complicate space flight.

The pellets we made were Oxidized in a way that made them non-magnetic. For these objects that might be shot out of a Mass Driver, I would want parts that are of Magnetic materials, and parts that were not magnetic and were Oxidized, and maybe even having Hydrogen bonded to some of the molecules.

So, far, I am thinking that you would create Magnetic Iron beads and find a way to incorporate them into a mass, of Oxidized and even Hydrated minerals, without compromising their magnetic nature, possibly actually making those beads magnetic. If you had Calcium from the Moon and Water, perhaps you could even use Concrete?

Calcium on the Moon: https://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration … 0Scientist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_resources#Calcium
Quote:

Calcium
Anorthite crystals in a basalt vug from Vesuvius, Italy (size: 6.9 × 4.1 × 3.8 cm)
Calcium (Ca) is the fourth most abundant element in the lunar highlands, present in anorthite minerals (formula CaAl
2Si
2O
8).[46][48] Calcium oxides and calcium silicates are not only useful for ceramics, but pure calcium metal is flexible and an excellent electrical conductor in the absence of oxygen.[46] Anorthite is rare on the Earth[49] but abundant on the Moon.[46]
Calcium can also be used to fabricate silicon-based solar cells, requiring lunar silicon, iron, titanium oxide, calcium and aluminum.[50]

So, I am thinking that you try to make an ideal projectile out of these materials. It might actually include spring-like qualities, and also other shock absorbing qualities, even perhaps including crush structure to absorb impacts.

And alternative to shooting them to L5, would be a lesser push that puts them into a sub-orbital path around the Moon. If they are not collected in orbit, they would be expected to impact the Moon.

I suppose you would not want to be on that part of the Moon at that time. This then may reduce the amount of space junk put into Lunar orbit. Many Lunar orbits decay over time anyway, so that would help to keep things clean as well.

You then may want to try to intercept them at the high point of their orbit. If you have a collector in an elliptical orbit, that may help. But there will be a speed difference, so you might want a magnetic collector on a tether, also using centrifugal force, like in the Gerard K. O'Neill idea. So, the collection thing maybe needs some work. Shock absorbers may be involved along with a very strong electromagnet. Tethers may spin. You might also use gear like that used in catching a large fish, with drag. Any room for improvements.

Ideally the projectiles then caught, the makeup of the materials incorporated being of satisfactory proportions to use in orbital projects in the Earth/Moon system.

Some manufactured items also could become cargo to go to Mars.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-09-06 09:54:15)

Void · 2022-09-07 11:04:15

As concerns mining on Mars, for Iron ore, I thought I would show some crusher action.

HARD IRON ORE PULVERIZED BY KOBELCO GYRATORY CONE CRUSHER, "Fe2O3 & Fe304 Mining"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20fKIoJzLuc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9NqIS8jLew

Eventually if humans occupy Mars in numbers this level of machinery may be possible.

At first though, unless an unusual type of Iron ore is found, it might be considered how to work with sand dune materials. The materials are already crushed, maybe even fine enough. They supposedly contain Iron, Chromium, and Titanium.

This again: https://www.freethink.com/space/lunar-r … surface%29.
Quote:

ESA plans to make the first oxygen on the moon
It's launching a device that pulls oxygen from lunar regolith.
By Kristin Houser
March 27, 2022
lunar regolith
Credit: ESA / ATG-Medialab
This article is an installment of Future Explor

As you can see in this picture, it does not melt the ore, rather it just pulls most of the Oxygen out: https://www.freethink.com/wp-content/up … ze=768,458

Left side is raw simulant, Right side is post treatment where most of the Oxygen has been pulled out.
It is possible that the treated simulant will have magnetic Iron and so you may be able to concentrate the iron content using magnetic methods.

After than you might the pulverize the concentrate and do yet another magnetic separation.

At least it is a proposal.

When I was working in the mines and running the crushers, if you jammed it up and it kicked out then humans had to go into it and use a "Rock Saw" to dislodge the rocks it typically took about 3 days of work. You can bet the co-workers might not be happy at all.

I did jam one once, but the boss was able to lower the cone and get it restarted, so I was really fortunate to have his help.

So, imaging doing that on Mars.

Done

Last edited by Void (2022-09-07 11:26:38)

Void · 2022-09-08 17:27:08

To terraform Mars, I am supposing that to some degree you turn back the clock for some things, but not for things like a warmer crust.

Glaciation and water flows under glaciers and ice sheets will be items to ponder and plan for.

https://phys.org/news/2022-09-glaciers- … lowly.html
Quote:

Glaciers flowed on ancient Mars, but slowly
by American Geophysical Union

https://phys.org/news/2020-08-early-mar … Geoscience.
Quote:

Early Mars was covered in ice sheets, not flowing rivers: study
by University of British Columbia
UBC researchers have concluded that early Martian landscape probably looked similar to this image of the Devon ice cap. Credit: Anna Grau Galofre
A large number of the valley networks scarring Mars's surface were carved by water melting beneath glacial ice, not by free-flowing rivers as previously thought, according to new UBC research published today in Nature Geoscience. The findings effectively throw cold water on the dominant "warm and wet ancient Mars" hypothesis, which postulates that rivers, rainfall and oceans once existed on the red planet.

I am not sure about it but this suggests to me that on the way to terraforming Mars a phase resembling this model of ancient Mars may be reached.

What this may mean then is that even if only a small part of mid-day were warm enough to melt dusty snow, that may then flow down cracks in the ice, and rivers will flow under the ice.

That may only require that all the CO2 in the ice caps be vaporized, and perhaps some greenhouse gasses, and some high-altitude ice clouds to warm the planet.

The ice itself will move slowly, and I will bet it will pool in flat areas and craters.

This might be very useful to humans to have melted water to tap into, and also relatively stable ice to use as a building material.

It is likely in such a climate that there will be true snowfalls as well, which would then give ice packs and water flows. Previously it has seemed unwelcome to have running water, but now, I think that by extracting Oxygen and other gasses from rock, in the mining of materials, a rate of production might be able to exceed the loss of atmosphere to water based erosion of regolith.

I would like the venture the idea of a carrier gas as well. Currently the significant carrier gasses on Mars are Nitrogen, and perhaps to some degree Argon. If Mars had more of these, then more heat would be distributed from the equator to the poles. Once upon a time this was likely the case.

It may be hard to procure extra Nitrogen, but Oxygen may serve as a carrier gas as well.

Of course, if you are adding Oxygen to the atmosphere, it may also enhance the greenhouse effect as well.

It may be possible to produce more Oxygen in a large-scale mining process, but also it may be possible to tap the U.V. in the upper atmosphere as a power supply by injecting water vapor into it. This then may form heat retaining high altitude ice clouds, and also it may be split by the U.V. and produce Hydrogen and Oxygen and the Hydrogen would be expected to float away into space at a faster rate than the Oxygen, particularly if an artificial magnetic field is provided.

I am also thinking that it may not be wrong to produce Methane from microbes, which live off of the products of radioactive decay. In fact, it might be reasonable to use nuclear wastes to enhance such a thing.

Such biology already exists under our ocean floors. It is actually a recent discovery. I will seek articles out later on this.

The point is, if such a biology runs off of radioactive decay, I am inclined to thing that any Methane produced will not be particularly radioactive itself, and could be released to the Martian atmosphere, and perhaps even be used as a fuel.

You would pump CO2 from the Martian atmosphere into an ice-covered lake with "Enhanced" radioactivity from nuclear waste products.
The decay will produce Hydrogen from the water, and CO from the CO2. I think.

It is a thing to consider.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-09-08 17:50:05)

Void · 2022-09-08 20:37:06

OK this part of the previous post needs some additional consideration:

I am also thinking that it may not be wrong to produce Methane from microbes, which live off of the products of radioactive decay. In fact, it might be reasonable to use nuclear wastes to enhance such a thing.
Such biology already exists under our ocean floors. It is actually a recent discovery. I will seek articles out later on this.
The point is, if such a biology runs off of radioactive decay, I am inclined to thing that any Methane produced will not be particularly radioactive itself, and could be released to the Martian atmosphere, and perhaps even be used as a fuel.
You would pump CO2 from the Martian atmosphere into an ice-covered lake with "Enhanced" radioactivity from nuclear waste products.
The decay will produce Hydrogen from the water, and CO from the CO2. I think.
It is a thing to consider.

While microbes could feed on released H2 and CO, there would also be free Oxygen created. I guess if all reduced molecules were then Oxidized, then the output would be H20 and CO2.

However, microbes absorbing Hydrogen and Carbon into their bodies would allow for free Oxygen. And if the microbes die, and decay, then Methane and perhaps other Hydrocarbons came from that, for a time you may have fuels and Oxygen in the water.

So, it needs further work. It is interesting though. If you could somehow not have microbes that consume Methane that would make it easier to pull both Methane and Oxygen out of the water.

There is a much more recent article, but this one is not bad: https://www.livescience.com/48125-oxyge … oxide.html
So, if the radiation in the mud creates Carbon or CO it is possible that those would stay in the mud or absorb into Iron or Nickle. If there are microbes, then those might be eaten by the microbes. And if the microbes were anaerobic but could tolerate a bit of Oxygen then the Oxygen might disperse into the water above. Reaching for straws though.

OK, this is more recent: https://news.mit.edu/2022/great-oxygena … robes-0314
Quotes:

Microbes and minerals may have set off Earth’s oxygenation
Scientists propose a new mechanism by which oxygen may have first built up in the atmosphere
Jennifer Chu | MIT News Office
Publication Date:March 14, 2022

A new hypothesis, proposed by MIT scientists, suggests that oxygen finally started accumulating in the atmosphere thanks to interactions between certain marine microbes and minerals in ocean sediments. These interactions helped prevent oxygen from being consumed, setting off a self-amplifying process where more and more oxygen was made available to accumulate in the atmosphere.

It is also my opinion that possibly the Earth did not accumulate Oxygen for a while because more fuels were coming out of the Volcano's in the early history of Earth, (And Mars).

This again: https://beta.nsf.gov/news/microbes-deep … ve-process
Quotes:

Microbes deep beneath seafloor survive on byproducts of radioactive process
Results have implications for life on Mars

Microbes in sediment below the seafloor are sustained primarily by chemicals created by the natural irradiation of water molecules, report U.S. National Science Foundation-funded researchers at the University of Rhode Island and their collaborators.
The team discovered that the creation of these chemicals is amplified by minerals in marine sediment. In contrast to the view that life in sediment is fueled by products of photosynthesis, an ecosystem fueled by irradiation of water begins just meters below the seafloor in much of the open ocean. This radiation-fueled world is one of Earth's largest habitats.
The results are published in the journal Nature Communications.

So, I am not clear on how to do what?, but it seems to me that there can be something here. You might run nuclear fission reactors, and then further use the waste from it or perhaps certain parts of the waste to create a reactor that would produce both Oxygen and fuels.

You might also release some of these fuels as greenhouse gasses.

I think that it may be true that Oxygen and Methane produced this way may not be too dangerous. But I am not sure.

The pools with the radioactive waste products might have very thick permafrost under them and an ice covering over them so it may be possible to contain the danger in those basins. That needs further consideration.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-09-08 21:03:02)

Calliban · 2022-09-09 09:22:27

Void, if I am reading this correctly, you are talking about using radioactive materials to dissociate water and CO2 into hydrogen and CO, respectively, which are then metabolised into methane by methogenic bacteria. It could work, but the problem is that radioactivity is quite a weak energy source and even if the radioactive substances were dissolved in water ( which would be toxic to any higher lifeforms) it would inefficiently converted to chemical energy, with much energy being lost as heat.

To quantify the problem: During operation, a fission reactor generates about 7% of its total heat output from decay of fission products. However, 1 year after shutdown, this drops to 0.1% of average operating power profile. By this point, almost all heat is being generated by long-lived fission products or daughter products, with half-lives measured in months or years. Fuel typically sits in fuel ponds for at least a few years before reprocessing. So the reality is that the annual waste discharge from a large 1000MWe nuclear power station, would produce only a couple of MW of thermal power by the time you get hold of it. That is about the same energy flux as provided by sunlight on a few acres of martian surface. If the waste containers were sealed, they could provide enough heat to prevent high lattitude ponds from freezing to their bottoms during winter months. They could be useful in that application. For really big ponds, like the one we have talked about creating in Korelov crater, a standard sized fission power reactor can provide GW of waste heat when operating. The decay heat provided by long-lived waste is petty in comparison, but we need to store it somewhere.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-09-09 09:26:58)

Void · 2022-09-09 10:38:02

Thank You Calliban. It does indicate the relatively small portion that using the waste could provide.

But as you have said the stuff has to be stored somewhere. I guess then it also has to be retrievable at some point for reprocessing.

I think that Mars can be handled different from Earth, there is a lot of space to do these things without endangering large populations.

And although I also like various solar methods, if a nuclear industry is started, why not do it big time?

I would think that for Mars, there is not going to be anything like too much energy for a very long time if ever.

However, I am not at all sure about the biology and chemistry and its results, what the options might be. It is probably true that for intensity of radioactivity perhaps only a few microbes can deal with a large amount. That could be good or bad.

So, it is more of a question than an answer.

It does seem interesting for alien worlds.

I do wonder how much nuclear materials may be available from the asteroid belt.

But you are likely right, as a source of greenhouse gasses, perhaps there are better options.

I like the idea more of reducing an iron containing "Ore", and magnetically separating it into concentrate and tailings. Tailings if dumped into water may also produce greenhouse gasses, and again chemical reactions and type of microbes may influence the output.

And of course, I am getting away from the post you responded to, but I think that terraforming may involve using several tricks, as previously mentioned, and perhaps also altering the albedo of the Martian ice caps, at least in the CO2 deposits.

But it is all more questions than plans and answers at this point.

Getting ready for a fishing trip, so my participation here will be limited for a few days soon.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-09-09 10:48:39)

Void · 2022-09-10 10:19:58

Based on the materials of post #483, I want to speculate on the situation of oceans under ice, can they generate free Oxygen?

We have many of these, in our solar system, and there may be many throughout the universe beyond.

My own opinion, not proven, is that planets often start with lots of Hydrogen in their deeps. Perhaps the same for Carbon. I think that as this drains out into oceans and to any atmosphere on the surface, then suppressing the accumulation of Oxygen.

So, Earth would be Oxygen suppressed for quite a while, and Titan is apparently still Oxygen suppressed.

Because of tidal heating in addition to radioactive decay, Europa "May" have aged faster. Really, we don't know.

But based on the materials of post #483, it seems to me that circumstances in the sediments of that ocean "May" generate Oxygen to the waters of that ocean.

There has been speculation that Oxidants from the surface, created by radiation bombardment may somehow get into the ocean below, by the movement of ices. That may be, I don't know.

But if radiation in the sediments of the sea of Europa, drives a biology, then it can be supposed that the bodies of the organisms in the sediments do not prefer to be Oxidized. If they can, they would resist Oxidation. If radiation is creating CO, H2, and Oxygen, then per the materials of post #483, they may shed Oxygen to the Ocean above.

But while the radiation may give life, it may also kill some microbes, so there could be an ecological place for scavengers, which might use Oxygen to consume the bodies of the dead, and of course this could lead to predators.

I have to wonder about dust in orbit of Jupiter. Could the radiation transmute it to radioactive materials? If then the dust incorporates into the surface of the ice of Europa, can it then eventually enter the ocean and prime the sediments for further activity of life from radioactive decay?

This then was in Post #483: https://beta.nsf.gov/news/microbes-deep … ve-process

And this: https://beta.nsf.gov/news/microbes-deep … ve-process
Quote:

Microbes in sediment below the seafloor are sustained primarily by chemicals created by the natural irradiation of water molecules, report U.S. National Science Foundation-funded researchers at the University of Rhode Island and their collaborators.
The team discovered that the creation of these chemicals is amplified by minerals in marine sediment. In contrast to the view that life in sediment is fueled by products of photosynthesis, an ecosystem fueled by irradiation of water begins just meters below the seafloor in much of the open ocean. This radiation-fueled world is one of Earth's largest habitats.

And that is a surprise.

I would like to know what the point of radioactivity magnitude, where toxicity, exceeds its life-giving nature, in ocean sediments.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-09-10 10:45:19)

Void · 2022-09-15 19:34:32

Well, I did not see where this should otherwise go. I guess building islands in the sea, and also reducing greenhouse gasses for Earth can be considered terraforming of the Earth, so..............

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ma … ORM=VRDGAR

I myself am not interested in suppressing most hydrocarbon production. But those who do find ways to produce alternative energy, look like an asset to all of us, in my view.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-09-15 19:35:48)

Void · 2022-09-17 11:00:18

I am going to do an "Appropriation" from the topic "Harvesting Asteroids - Economics and Practice of by tahanson43206", posts #19-#28.

My reason is that I feel that some of the materials suggest methods to deal with objects about the size of Phobos and Deimos that appear to be in part at least rubble piles.

Callibans ring notion is very interesting as well, and I might want to see that done down the line as well. But I am looking for a relatively "First" deployment of a significant nature to objects like these. I also want to leave the other members alone to develop their own thought streams, in fact I desire it.

Quote from post #28 of the other topic mentioned above:

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,760
Email
I will continue to intrude here.
I consider Calliban's notions as good, at least for small objects. Of course, I am myself interested in objects that may be larger, so the solutions may be different, or perhaps may borrow from other solutions for other objects.
In my case Phobos and Deimos, even if they are moons, to some extent resemble asteroids, quite a lot, but they may be a bit more porous.
Here might be a basis for a useful tool: Query: "corkscrew yard anchor for dogs"
https://www.bing.com/shop?q=corkscrew+y … 540FE1303B
These will need to be used in counter orientations, as at least pairs. In other words, one designed to spin in one direction clockwise, and the other in counterclockwise.
In this manner they may be able to attach to a rubble pile. They would have to be presented to the rubble pile perhaps a first action would be to spear the rubble pile using the inertia of the mining vessel. Then the spin to get an anchorage.
Additional anchors might be used subsequently to provide additional anchoring.
If a rubble asteroid were subjected to a strong magnetic field, this would both attract to both the projector of magnetism, and the ship itself if it had magnetic qualities. This would also cause the rubble asteroid to clinch together like a fist, as the magnetic particles in the rubble asteroid would be attracted to the field and each other.
If you vibrated the ship, then a fluidization process may be induced, and it may even be that the mining ship might become enveloped in particles with some magnetic portions in them. I don't know if that is useful or a problem. It could be useful as to provide some radiation shielding.
Phobos and Deimos being where I think that this type of mining might be pioneered, I don't really know how much magnetic materials are in them. There are probably some.
Query: "Magnetic iron in rubble asteroids"
https://sservi.nasa.gov/articles/astero … -the-moon/
https://physics.stackexchange.com/quest … etic-field
I think that in any case that Phobos and Deimos were created, there should be at least some magnetic Iron, maybe Nickle?
The mining vessel could have a very powerful magnet, similar to those contemplated for magnetic plasma bubble space drives.
My posts #23 and #24 can be referenced for additional things that might be done.
If it turns out that somehow Phobos and Deimos have some kind of Hydrogen resources, then Eureka!
You may have already established a set of holdfasts on the surface of the objects and might then access these Hydrogen resources.
It seems likely that Deimos at least has some Carbon on its surface. The interior, we cannot be sure of.
This is simply of interest: https://screenrant.com/mars-moon-phobos … olar-wind/
I will make the point that if materials of Phobos and Deimos contain anything of value to Earth/Moon, that may be possible to carry back in a returning Starship(s).
Done.
Last edited by Void (Yesterday 14:18:34)

OK it has been considered by other people to colonize/settle Deimos, and I suppose Phobos might be a target as well.

https://www.reddit.com/r/IsaacArthur/co … or_deimos/

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=co … RE&first=1

https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.UwDiEWg4Y … mgDet&rs=1

Rubble Pile Asteroids: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubble_pile
Quote:

Moons
The moon Phobos, the larger of the two natural satellites of the planet Mars, is also thought to be a rubble pile bound together by a thin regolith crust about 100 m (330 ft) thick.[13][14] Spectroscopy of Phobos' composition suggests that Phobos may be a captured main-belt asteroid.[15][16]

A link from that quote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobos_(moon)

Mentioned preveiously are Harpoons (I got from Isaac Arthur), double corkscrew harpoon/drills, magnetic forces, electrostatic forces, vibrations, fluidized regolith flows.

Also, explosive injection into the asteroid with explosives.

Dr. Johnson has voiced concerns that I think are valid, if one does not employ methods that may be adaptive to these rubble pile worlds.
The prompt seeking of solutions not yet tried.

And so, I suggest an enclosure of manufactured materials, which can manipulate the effects mentioned recently above, to burry itself under a protective coating of regolith. To burrow into the 330-foot coating of fine regolith, if that quantity is an accurate estimate.

The problems that were mentioned might be that the low gravitation will allow regolith to eject from any mechanical activities deployed, and that it is hard to get a holdfast fulcrum to lever against.

But with tools and calculations these things can be used as an asset or overcome. Calliban has a solution of a ring and arms from it. This must encircle the whole body, so for Phobos, and Deimos that would be a large capital outlay to create before gaining any advantage. So that solution is perhaps better either for very small rubble piles, or a very advanced space industrial complex, which we do not have yet.

Burial of mining asset enclosure, would provide the benefit of radiation protection and some protection from impactors.

Employing electromagnetic forces can be steady DC, Pulsed DC, and AC. Pulsed DC and AC would provide vibrations while attracting magnetic materials. If the structure had a non-conducting exterior, then a (+) or (-) charge. Probably easier to shoot an electron beam out into space, and so charge the interior of the structure a (+). This should also attract fine regolith to the structure. The electron beam(s) should curve around and impinge on the rubble pile. You might add mechanical vibrations to the structure by some means to further fluidize the regolith that is proximate. It might be wise if the structure is pointed, then you can use explosive charges on its exterior end to push the structure further down into the regolith.

Although by the time this is well progressed, it will be embedded, additional methods to hold it to the rubble pile would be the magnetic field, and the electrostatic cling

If your progress is stopped by hitting a large chunk of rock, then you can anchor into that as an additional hold-fast method. If somehow you hit ice, then Eureka!

We can be fairly certain that there will be metals in an unknown proportion, and materials suitable for ceramics. There will be Oxygen. Possibly Carbon.

For Hydrogen, some think ice may exist. But also, I would say perhaps hydrated minerals, we don't know.

Another possibility would be a Hydrogen sponge. The body being porous, the solar wind pressing on it, it may be like a restriction in the flow of a fluid, where molecules cling to rubble surfaces in a manner similar to Adsorption.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 5367500015
Quote:

Gaseous Hydrogen Embrittlement of Materials in Energy Technologies
Mechanisms, Modelling and Future Developments
Volume 1 in Woodhead Publishing Series in Metals and Surface Engineering
2012, Pages 3-26
Gaseous Hydrogen Embrittlement of Materials in Energy Technologies
1 - Hydrogen adsorption on the surface of metals
Author links open overlay panelA.A.Pisarev
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … via%3Dihub rights and content
Abstract:
A brief overview on hydrogen adsorption on the metal surface is given with references both to pioneering and current research and overviews on the problem. Potential energy diagram, features of physical and chemical adsorption, and electronic nature of adsorption are considered. Elementary processes taking part during adsorption including reflection, dissociation, diffusion, hot species, desorption, and isotopic exchange are discussed. Elementary structure of the H–Me adsorption complex, formation of hydrogen super lattice, reconstruction effects, and long-range interaction are analyzed. A general approach to the description of the rates of adsorption and desorption as well as equilibrium isotherms is given.
Previous chapter in bookNext chapter in book
Key words
hydrogenadsorptionmetalsdissociationdiffusionhot moleculeshot atomsdesorptionsuper latticereconstruction
Cited by (0)
Copyright © 2012 Woodhead Publishing Limited. All rights reserved.

So, I feel that the chances of making this pay are greater than before.

I also wonder about microwave usage to sinter the rubble into desired forms. Perhaps tunnel walls, or to sinter the surface into a ceramic like coating.

I do think that having a resource base(s) in the orbits of Mars, in the Near Mars situation, could be very valuable in itself, and to gain access to Mars and the asteroid belt as well.

A Lunar type of Starship(s), pushed into the regolith might be a very nice starting method.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-09-17 20:51:18)

Void · 2022-09-17 13:20:11

I have some further thoughts about what could go into the toolbox of tricks mentioned previously.

A release of gas from the nose of the ship could also help to fluidize the regolith and be contusive to the insertion of a Starship into it.

Unless a major void is found inside of the rubble pile, synthetic gravity will need to be exercised outside of the surface of the object. This of course will expose it to impactors and radiation.

Here again Starships might work out but will have to be fortified against the dangers. I think many people can think of many ways to do that, particularly if regolith and/or water are available.

You could sinter a counterweight for the starship's spin. Or put two or more Starships into an assembly.

Putting regolith and water into the walls of the Starship might strain its structures, so perhaps a mesh cable cage could be synched on the outside of it.

So, with the inserted Starships and the fortified spin Starships, and assistance from the Earth, Moon, and Mars, this could be a very good starter method(s).

Do remember that if settlements could be established in and on these moons, then you have a propellants depot where you do not so much have to lift stuff out of a gravity well and atmosphere.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-09-17 20:50:49)

Void · 2022-09-18 10:11:36

Gathering some additional information. Query: "How much would I weigh on Phobos?"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobos_(m … %20Travels. Quote:

About 40 gram-force (2 ounces)
A person who weighs 68 kilogram-force (150 pounds) on Earth would weigh about 40 gram-force (2 ounces) standing on the surface of Phobos. Geological features on Phobos are named after astronomers who studied Phobos and people and places from Jonathan Swift 's Gulliver's Travels.
Average orbital speed: 2.138 km/s
Satellite of: Mars
Surface area: 1548.3 km², (3.03545 µEarths)
Surface gravity: 0.0057 m/s², (581.4 µg)
Phobos (moon) - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobos_(moon)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobos_(moon)

Query: "How much would I weigh on Deimos?"

Well, I don't have it yet, but it would be less than Phobos, I expect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deimos_(moon)

Here is another article on the moons: https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/moons/mars … /in-depth/

This is a "Might Be" sort of thing:

Porosity of Phobos and Deimos: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/20130010070
Quote:

Phobos' estimated macroporosity of 12-20% is consistent with a fractured but coherent interior; Deimos' estimated macroporosity of 23-44% is more consistent with a loosely consolidated interior.
Author: S. L. Murchie, A. A. Fraeman, R. E. Arvidson, A. S. Rivkin, R. V. Morris
Publish Year: 2013
Internal Characteristics of Phobos and Deimos from Spectral ... - N…
ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20130010070.pdf
ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20130010070.pdf

That is very interesting information.

What about the temperature of either of these moons?
Query: "What is the temperature of Phobos?"
Quote:

https://www.answers.com/astronomy/What_ … _of_Phobos
Temperature â 233 K is known as Phobos temperature.
The temperatures of Phobos, one of the moons of Mars,range from about −4 °C (25 °F) to −112 °C (−170 °F), on the sunlit and shadowed sides respectively.

I am supposing that those are maximums that may apply to certain parts of the moons but perhaps not the polar areas.
That is not specified precisely.

So, there is a lot of pore space, and that can be occupied either by a high partial vacuum, possibly containing Hydrogen and other gasses. Or a condensate. Just possibly Hydrocarbons like tar.

If ice lenses do exist, they are probably covered by a layer of relatively ice-free regolith. Even so they would conduct heat much better than porous regolith with a high partial vacuum.

The thermal properties of the areas where ice lenses might exist, will be more like places further out in the solar system than Mars, so the possibility of ice lenses is perhaps enhansed.

By ice lenses I indicate regolith impregnated by ice, probably water ice.

If you could have temperatures similar to the outer asteroid belt, ice might be possible.

In the case of "Dry Regolith", the solar wind may impose itself into the pore space of the moons, and might also drag Martian atmosphere lost to space into those pores.

There may be a quieting of the vibrations of those molecules, and they might chemically bind to materials, and might also be Adsorbed to the surfaces of those materials.

I guess that is a lot. I have to do something else just now.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-09-18 11:18:03)

Void · 2022-09-18 20:45:50

Well, this actually could be quite good, in dealing with orbital Mars, if it is what they say it is: https://www.reddit.com/r/TheAngryAstron … hip_three/

If this is real, then metals are the propellants, and nuclear may be the proper energy source. But I might not rule out solar, myself.

This then if coupled with Ballistic Capture to Mars, could loosen thing up quite a bit for Near and Far Mars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic … r%20launch.

I feel that this combination might be quite good to deliver materials to Phobos and Deimos. But it would not be forbidden to do Hohmann transfers, I suppose.

I guess my desires would be to send a Starship probe to do analysis of Phobos and Deimos, probably without crew, but robotic. And then to establish a base on Mars, unless it turns out that Phobos and Deimos are much better than is thought.

While it may be possible to dig voids into these moons to even accommodate synthetic gravity habitats, I also wonder about expanding those moons by various methods.

I am not saying that using the 100-meter, or 330 feet fine regolith on Phobos into a sphere, if you did, then that would be several times larger than Phobos itself, even if the shell is thick enough to block harmful radiation.

I really don't want to define things more than that. There could be many alternate notions. We also have the possibility to make a toroidal dust radiation shield for Mars, from some of the materials of Phobos, or that is at least a notion of hope.

And if the Magneti Drives work, certainly metals can come from these moons, and from our Moon as well.

And I would point out that if you have a significant electrical power source for an interworld spacecraft, you might use the Magneti Drive and also Magnetic Plasma sails, a combination of the two, perhaps would be useful.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_ma … g%20vessel.
Quote:

A plasma magnet is a proposed spacecraft propulsion device that uses a dipole magnetic field to capture energy from the solar wind.[1][2] The field acts as a sail, using the captured energy to propel the spacecraft analogously to how the wind propels a sailing vessel.

Done.

.

Last edited by Void (2022-09-18 21:04:11)

Void · 2022-09-18 21:26:43

Another appropriation, I am afraid: "Index» Interplanetary transportation» Gravity Remediation in LEO for Space Travelers", Post #10

Quote:

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 11,176
Email
The article at the link below covers the mouse study reported earlier in the forum, and it also speculates on NASA thinking about artificial gravity for humans....
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … 79cc80870b
(th)

This very dry report was linked by clicking " Cell Reports.": https://www.cell.com/cell-reports/fullt … all%3Dtrue

I am very pleased to read this information even if a struggle for me. It leaves me to wonder if there is a level of AF, (Artificial Gravity), less than 1 g, but still giving sufficient protection. We don't know yet, at least I don't know yet.

I would mention that the materials of Phobos and Deimos and perhaps materials from Mars itself could be helpful to shield from GCR and other radiation.

So, we do not know if the Martian gravity field is sufficient, but for Phobos and Deimos it would be possible to have enough AG to aid health, I expect.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-09-18 21:33:05)

Void · 2022-09-19 08:20:17

Sintering is an interesting option possibly of use for some of the materials of Phobos and Deimos.

https://www.spacesafetymagazine.com/spa … the%20dust.
Quote:

Sustaining the lunar dust at a high temperature – 1200-1500 0 C – but below its melting point, creates bonds between particles, forming solid blocks from which the lunar base can be created. Microwave sintering creates a solid building material similar to ceramics only by microwave heating of the dust.
SinterHab: A Moon Base Concept from Sintered 3D-Printed Lunar Dust
www.spacesafetymagazine.com/space-exploration/moon-landing/sinterhab-3d-printed-moon-base-concept-lunar-dust/
www.spacesafetymagazine.com/space-exploration/moon-landing/sinterhab-3d-…

Where for our Moon, we have to cope with the gravitation of the Moon while building, for the moons of Mars, the concern is to not have the materials for sintering float away.

In sintering, shells, I do not focus on a pressure retaining vessel, but one that gives protection from radiation, and some impactors, mostly smaller, more common ones, and also to have something that you can retain things in, and that you can attach objects to as well. They could also equilibrate the interior temperatures to some degree.

Sintering would most simply seem to be possible employing heat from a concentrating mirrors assembly, I would think.

And to be more amusing, we can consider what nature does with shells here on Earth.

The concept is not so alien to most people, I expect, so, just some pictures: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Sh … HoverTitle

These shells may be of sintered components, but you could include also other material such as metals, glasses, and other ceramics as well.

Other shell types could be of interest, but I think that a clam shell is what I want to focus on first.

A clam shell is an enclosure that is also totally a door.

You might put spaceships into them to give protection.

And you might put a modular AG (Artificial Gravity) into them. In my case I suggest derivatives of Starships, connected together. Such might fly SSTO from the Earth's surface and be towed to Mars. It might be that parts such as engines would be removed in LEO, and re-used for more SSTO flights.

I have previously been properly educated by Dr. Johnson that such enclosures fall short in the area of radiation protections, protection from impactors, and thermal cycling. A "Clam Shell" could offer what would be needed.

In this case you could convert the propellant tanks to pressurized space of use. The exact array of such repurposed Starships could be many. No reason to obsess about a particular instance, at this point.

The "Clamshell" assemblies would most likely be included into a superstructure which would include power and other functions. The superstructures could be attached to a Martian moon or asteroid.

That's pretty good for now.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-09-19 08:53:29)

Void · 2022-09-19 09:38:03

Over time the performance of the Starship is expected to improve. So, for the case of a one-way Starship to be repurposed, perhaps another look at SSTO is worth the effort.

https://space.stackexchange.com/questio … pped%20off.

I like this one: https://www.reddit.com/r/SpaceXLounge/c … ntent=PSR1
Picture Quote: https://preview.redd.it/b2nb0737sif81.p … 729aa32a36

The picture indicates flaps and the associated Moters and such for them to be included, which also implies a heat shield.

I would not want/need those, which will reduce the dry mass and expense. It will not land back on any sizable world.

So, my hope would be to stitch together sophisticated modules from Earth with more basic sections built from primitive solar system materials, to get a bootstrap to an industrial economy in orbit.

For humans perhaps a Hohmann Transfer and Aero burn are required for a speedy travel. But it may be that if decent quarters are available in Martian orbit, a landing may not always be mandated.

Done

I feel the possibility may exist doing this were propellants and materials assistive to activities desired, will allow refilling's from the Moons of Mars, at least for Oxygen, and probably for fuels as well. Particularly if you have engines that make a plasma out of metals as propellants.

Although solar may directly sinter moon materials, I also would be interested in the Microwave method mentioned in a previous post link.

The primary means of delivering bulk items from the Earth/Moon would likely be including "Ballistic Capture" so that a heat shield will not be required.

Last edited by Void (2022-09-19 09:50:18)

Void · 2022-09-19 09:57:27

Well, I seem to be very active just now.

We think that the fine regolith of Phobos is ~100 meters/330 feet deep.

So, I guess Starship, unstretched would be about 50 m170 ft in height/length.

If pressurized and the regolith were fluidized by various means it could be completely submerged in regolith, it seems.

So, radiation protection should be pretty good, although gravity would be very low and a health concern.

https://marspedia.org/Radiation

Query: "Marspedia, radiation shielding"

https://marspedia.org/Radiation_shielding
Quote:

Radiation shielding
Jump to: navigation, search
Water-shield Greenhouse Concept
Early explorers will simply accept the radiation dose for the 3.5 year round trip (which should give approximately a 1% lifetime increase of a fatal cancer, from 20 to 21%). See "The Case for Mars, chapter 5. However, radiation protection becomes much more of a concern for long durations habitats where people will live on Mars for years or decades. In such cases, thick shielding (of soil or ice), exotic modern materials, or electro-static or magnetic shields become more sensible. Radiation from the natural radioactive elements in the soil should be approximately equal to Earth doses. Radiation from Solar and Cosmic rays will be stronger, with the latter being much more difficult to shield against.

Contents
1 General
2 Passive shielding
2.1 Protection from Electromagnetic Radiation
2.2 Protection from Particulate Radiation
2.3 Possible Shielding Materials
3 Active shielding
3.1 Design concepts
3.1.1 Protection during transit to Mars
3.1.2 Minimagnetosphere
4 Risk-mitigating behavior
5 Example of using shielding and behavior to reduce radiation dosage
6 Bibliography
7 References

Passive shielding using regolith would need to be rather thick. Not impossible, but perhaps unnecessary if you also use active shielding and have storm shelters, if the active shielding breaks down.

Over time things like plastics and water containers may become available for passive shielding.

If a clam shell enclosure is included into a platform, then items of that platform that fulfill other functions may also offer shielding to the clam shell. If in proximity of a moon or asteroid, then less materials are needed for protection for at least one half of the shell, as the moon would tend to give some protection. The Mars facing side of Phobos however receives secondary radiation from Mars itself, which needs concern.

I think that is fairly good coverage.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-09-19 10:14:31)

Void · 2022-09-19 11:34:59

this is an interesting video: https://www.bing.com/search?q=The+omino … edc0a3bdd1

So, it crashes in 30 to 50 million years :0

Really not a problem is it. If Phobos is turned into processed materials, then by several methods an avoidance of tidal stress breaking it up can be avoided. And the inertia of the moon can be used to help lift things from Mars to orbit. Probably in 1000 years, humans will have either gone to the stars or a dark ages/extinction.

So, in adapting to this it also lays the groundwork for moving to the asteroid belt, and further onto Mars.

As I have already said other times, the dreams of Jeff Bezos, (In part), are most likely to be lived in orbit of Mars, and strangely facilitated by Elon Musk and SpaceX.

Even if at first Mars is unhealthy to live on for various reasons, including low gravity, I expect that eventually medical breakthroughs will the allow humans to be well on Mars, but even so, habitats built from Phobos and Deimos and perhaps later asteroids moved, and materials from Mars itself might actually be an excellent place for humans and their machines to live and operate.

The inertia of Phobos might be used to help lift materials from Mars, such as Nitrogen and Carbon from it's atmosphere.

Done.

.

Last edited by Void (2022-09-19 11:53:38)

Void · 2022-09-19 20:23:45

I do like this article, not sure that it is true though: https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/moons/mars-moons/in-depth/
Quote:

Like Earth's Moon, Phobos and Deimos always present the same face to their planet. Both are lumpy, heavily-cratered and covered in dust and loose rocks. They are among the darker objects in the solar system. The moons appear to be made of carbon-rich rock mixed with ice and may be captured asteroids.

Done

Void · 2022-09-20 09:31:05

In post #491, I had attached this video by "The Angry Astronaut":
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheAngryAstron … hip_three/
I want to look further into it.

This appears to be a website for it: https://www.magdrive.space/

Although this is not yet an Elon Musk project, it may be similar to the Boring Company, Neuralink, Humanoid Robot, Starlink.

All of the above are in infancy, and typically are made fun of at their beginnings. I feel that the Boring Company appears to be accumulating a relatively good footing in reality.

If this propulsion method, I suppose is a "Metal Plasma Mass Driver".

Supposing that it does scale up, then I would like to consider a possible reality where a atmospheric entry Starship does not exist, what are the limits? What can be done with those abilities?

For such a reality, landing on Mars is not yet possible, and lifting liquid propellants to orbit would be very limited.

Don't get me wrong, I expect that eventually a Starship that can land on Earth and Mars, would most likely evolve from the non-reusable 2nd stage.

Pairing it with Dreem Chase and/or Dragon would expand the abilities of the system.

SpaceX has apparently seen a limit of utility for Dragon, and I guess that may be due to Dream Chaser.

As I have said, I am interested in how far things could go with a Starship that cannot land on Earth or Mars and having Dream chaser paired with it. I am also supposing that Dream Chaser can be crew rated relatively soon.

Dream Chaser could launch in parallel to Starship, on its own 1st stage, there are many proposals for that, it might even be possible that Falcon 9 could do it.

An alternative method would be to carry one or more Dream Chasers to orbit with the Starship. But then that has to be crew rated and reduces the other cargo that this version of Starship could lift to orbit.

A version of Starship like this might well not include Heat Shield, Flaps and motors, Header Tanks, and propellants in them. So, a greater cargo could be lifted to orbit.

Obviously, cargo could be the metal required for the Mag Drive propulsion uses.

In my mind, the Mag Drive should also be used along with a Plasma Bubble sail method. Only one usually in use at a time. For delivery of cargo, to Phobos and Deimos, I would think that Ballistic Capture would be used.

Such a version of Starship could not do an Aero Brake maneuver. Until that is possible, then it might be OK to shield the ship well enough to allow crew. I see no reason why a ship departing from the Earth's gravity well could not have a 1st stage and then become a 2nd stage. This then might allow a faster transit. But I don't know if a Hofmann transfer could be done, or if it would be wise to consume the propellant to do that.

It may be that a crew transfer ship would have Artificial Gravity and some passive radiation shielding. If it had Magneti Plasma Drive, then that might work also as an active radiation shield. When it was off, then crew might be restricted to well-built radiation shelters.

I suppose some readers might become upset about this thinking, but I did say I wanted to explore the limits of this.

To return crew to Earth, would be tricky. I guess you could travel in the Starship and use a fortified capsule method to land the crew on Earth. IN that case you might likely sacrifice the Starship. Otherwise, you might need to consume propellants to get it into Earth orbit. I don't know of any Ballistic Capture type method to go (Phobos/Deimos)>Earth.

We do also have the possibility that Terran-R could be easier to aero brake to an atmosphere. But I guess that is cheating, going outside of the bounds I set for early Starship.

Then there is the question of what do you do with a used one-time Starship? Repurpose would be suggested. I don't know if the metals could be propellants. I am guessing that a better use is to convert it to space habitation, with various methods.

It would be interesting if you could burrow a Starship variant into the 100 meters / 330-foot layer of apparently fine regolith on Phobos. Questionable. I think you could insert them, but to travel like a submarine, is probably an impractical notion. Fun, but likely impractical.

These ship though, if already having a magnetic bubble drive and a power source could use a combination of active and passive shielding. If in an array associated with a moon, they would be partially shielded from GCR by that moon, but perhaps secondary radiation might be a problem. In certain orientations, the moon would also protect from solar flares.

I have previously mentioned a clam shell notion of a protection of an Artificial Gravity device partially comp0osed of one-time Starships. Almost the whole length of a Starship might be made habitable, and for a storm shelter, it might be that passive shielding storm shelters could be put in place where low AG dominates.

In the case where a flare occurs, and resort to storm shelters occurs, it may still be possible, (I think), that crew could address repair problems even during a flare, if the moon occults the habitat.

This might be a way to do early habitation of these moons.

For passive shielding water might be just fine, but expensive if it has to be brought from the Earth/Moon system.
But I suspect that there will be Hydrogen Entrained into the interior of these moons. If it can be extracted aloung with Oxygen, then you have water, even if no ice exists. It is also considered that the upper layer regolith is composed in part of Carbonaceous materials, and it may be that if it somehow retains some Hydrogen, it may be good shielding materials.

Got to go to my real life.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-09-20 10:37:35)

Calliban · 2022-09-20 10:33:47

The magdrive looks to me like a Dense Plasma Focus.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dense_plasma_focus

The image of the drive appears to show concrentric cylinders. They are probably using the pinch effect, to heat the metal plasma to extremely high temperatures.

tahanson43206 · 2022-09-20 10:59:37

As a follow up to discussion between Calliban and Void ...

The site referenced is apparently being tended:
Last edited 22 days ago by 87.116.161.85

The most recent citation I found was 2019, but there may be more recent ones.

One characteristic of the site that stood out (for me at least0 was the number of countries where test systems are in place.

Another characteristic of the report that caught my eye was the assertion that a parameter held constant across all sizes of machines.

I've already forgotten what that was, and I read it slowly. Good Grief! At any rate, the point the author was making was that for that particular performance measurement, a student with a small/modest machine could see the exact same performance as a huge system.

There is some discussion of the possibility of harnessing this line of research for power production, and there was a hint that at least one person thinks power production might be possible, but there are no reports of actual experiments.

On the other hand, it appears that the machines described in this article are capable of producing a variety of energetic particles for a variety of purposes, such as medical treatments and product inspections.

(th)

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