Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Void · 2022-08-15 10:02:55

While some people may still say they need to be outside, I see that robots can be eyes and ears for the people, and apparently helicopters also.

So, for any avatar robot out on the surface or in an installation of any kind, it may be that a person would be allowed to be a "Passenger". Read Only. And in some cases, you might be the driver.

And it is my opinion that various kinds of gardens will be possible, under artificial light (With a sun like spectrum for humans), and even over time I expect that surface installations with real sunlight may become safe and reliable with the passage of a learning curve on how to do that.

And yet with avatar robots you could be on the surface and have sensory experiences that you could not have with a spacesuit on.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-08-15 10:06:13)

tahanson43206 · 2022-08-15 17:26:20

For Isaac Arthur fans, the gent is scheduled to appear on The Space Show:

August
16
Tuesday

1. 7 PM PDT (9 PM CDT; 10 PM EDT): We welcome ISAAC ARTHUR to the program. Isaac is known for his Science and Futurism podcast series.

The Space Show is free to all.

Programs are archived if you miss the live broadcast.

On the ** other ** hand, the live broadcast provides and opportunity for anyone to ask a question of the speaker.

(th)

Void · 2022-08-18 09:41:34

So, at this time I would hope to evaluate what I think are possibly true things (Otherwise known as speculations).

Our abilities of observation are not entirely sufficient and adapting to the alien is not natural to many parts of our societies. There is aways an argument between efficient unawareness, and adaptive abilities. Adaptive abilities are always trying to escape from efficient unawareness, as efficient unawareness is always trying to be all and everything at the expense of adaptive abilities and awareness and skills in general. Efficient unawareness wants power and replicative dominance. Sort of like "Grey Goo" that is feared to be a bad possibility for nanotechnology.

Anyway, for that problem we can thank the source of the universe that rules of reality tend to punish the efficient unawareness, as long as we do not excessively give them maps of reality. They never interpret them correctly and they always do the wrong thing, endlessly.

But even speaking or thinking of such things gives the brain dead M.F. Idiots better chances than they disserve.

So, it is better not to alert such more than is necessary.

So....I have noticed members working on the issue of metals, particularly iron. Very nice notions. I have some background in the processing of ores of iron, but don't consider myself good enough to feel confident about my footing on the later processes. Still, very good! I look forward to more and hope I can possibly have something to offer.

For now, I retreat "Underground" to things that are not metals, possible methods to support a society that can eventually indeed process materials on Mars and its moons.

Things I think are true:
-Some places on Mars will have hard rock, softer rock, and rock that may crumble. I think we want most the softer rock, that may not crumble.
-Some places on Mars have accessible water in the form of ice. Typically, the mid latitudes, and Valles Marinaris, we think. The poles also have lots of water, but it will take lots of energy to access that.
-We could build bulk shelters by digging in rock overlayed by ice. In the ice we may place naturally illuminated domes, also probably using manufactured materials. We may make lakes and even seas covered by ice and manufactured materials. We may have barometric airlocks, using special tricks to assist such. We may build landing pads inside of cylinders cut in ice sheets, with lids that can be placed over them, to service spacecraft.
-Solar is better in orbit, but the ground has more likelihood of the materials needed.
-Various sources of energy may be available for the surface of Mars. Local Solar, local nuclear, maybe geothermal, and orbital solar power, perhaps.

So, if we can add methods to process metals in bulk and also perhaps ceramics and such, that would be a great thing to add to the above.

I have no proof, but I speculate that.....
-Iron and Nickle on the moons of Mars will be magnetic and not so much Oxidized.
-Iron in sand dunes may be partially magnetic, and if so, we may avoid the crushing and mining processes, and perhaps go directly to ore enhancement with magnetic methods.
-I have read that the soils of Mars may be 5% to 14% iron, which is almost an ore in itself.

My guess is that since Mars appears to not have plates diving down under each other, metals, perhaps from the asteroid belt are more present in the crust than for Earth. Don't know that to be true, but maybe it is.

This in itself may be an explanation for the differences in atmospheres. If the Earth's plates dump heavy elements down to the Mantle and Core, then that leaves more lighter elements in the crust of the Earth. But if Mars keeps its more recent arrivals of metals in it's upper regions, perhaps some loss of atmosphere may be due to rust?

I am not sure, but it pays to have good maps of reality. This is a proposed map of relative realities, Earth vs. Mars. It will need further evidence.

As far as metals go, I am interested in all three Martian worlds, Mars, Phobos, and Deimos.

Enough for now.

BDMFI

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-08-18 10:20:10)

Void · 2022-08-19 09:44:12

So, I will go into the beneficiation of ores as that is what I am somewhat experienced in.

Some articles:
https://ioresearchhub.newcastle.edu.au/ … %20More%20

https://www.911metallurgist.com/blog/be … n-iron-ore
Quote:

Beneficiation of Iron Ore and the treatment of magnetic iron taconites, stage grinding and wet magnetic separation is standard practice. This also applies to iron ores of the non-magnetic type which after a reducing roast are amenable to magnetic separation. All such plants are large tonnage operations treating up to 50,000 tons per day and ultimately requiring grinding as fine as minus 500-mesh for liberation of the iron minerals from the siliceous gangue.
Magnetic separation methods are very efficient in making high recovery of the iron minerals, but production of iron concentrates with less than 8 to 10% silica in the magnetic cleaning stages becomes inefficient. It is here that flotation has proven most efficient. Wet magnetic finishers producing 63 to 64% Fe concentrates at 50-55% solids can go directly to the flotation section for silica removal down to 4 to 6% or even less. Low water requirements and positive silica removal with low iron losses makes flotation particularly attractive. Multistage cleaning steps generally are not necessary. Often roughing off the silica froth without further cleaning is adequate.

Image Quote: https://z4y6y3m2.rocketcdn.me/blog/wp-c … on-Ore.png

The facility that I worked at included some of the above features, but flotation, (At the facility), was just experimental at that time.

The objective was to make ceramic pellets with a high iron content, that could go into a furnace situation. They would breathe well, because of the gaps between pellets. Raw Iron ore alone may not be as good for air flows.

So, people who make iron and steel, are like bakers mixing stuff and with a "Baking recipe".

A metallurgist told me that our ore was desirable was that it did not have much in the way of impurities. I know that there is an ore deposit in our state that is not worthwhile, as it has Manganese in it, or so I did read.

Things I am attracted to are the dunes of Mars, the metals of Phobos and Deimos, and what may be under ice slabs. Having an ice slab would shelter the extraction and make processes and would provide water for a wet method.

But I see that there are dry methods in development.

Also, I was attracted to this:

This also applies to iron ores of the non-magnetic type which after a reducing roast are amenable to magnetic separation.

We did not do that, but it is interesting. I suppose you would use heat and Hydrogen or CO to do that reduction to magnetic iron in the content, and then a magnetic separation.

So, apparently Iron is a really big thing on Earth, perhaps 90% of metals per Peter Zeihan.

My notion of tunnels/canals under the ice slabs, is not as stupid as it may seem.

You have to get to the ore and have to transport the bulk of it.

Such tunnels could have regolith bottoms or ice bottoms or even contain a cold-water canal. Probably some of each.

In searching for iron ore under an ice slab, other ores may also be turned up to a discovery.

Calliban and kdb512 have recently spoken about creating crude iron products, by methods similar to those already known.

It may also be that a Mond process could be used???

And the Brits/Europeans have a method to extract Oxygen and alloys from Lunar regolith that might be adaptable.
https://www.freethink.com/space/lunar-r … surface%29.

So, it might be possible to do a run through the European machine to reduce the content, and then do a magnetic separation of the remainder to concentrate the magnetic materials, such as iron and maybe Nickle?

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-08-25 09:11:52)

Void · 2022-08-19 11:47:29

This was a surprise to me: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Wa … M%3DHDRSC3
Quote:

Earth's Magnetosphere Is Creating Water on the Moon!
YouTube96K viewsFeb 7, 2021by Anton Petrov

So, apparently resupply at some unknown rate can be expected.

It might be that artificial magnetospheres on the Moon could enhance this, but that will be far off.

While the Moon is an object of interest by itself, I wonder if some manufactured items can be also shipped to Mars, either it's orbits or even the surface.

For instance, something that can harvest sunlight to make a magnetic field and ride the solar wind.

The Moon has superior solar energy to that of orbital Mars, and orbital Mars solar energy is better than surface solar energy.

But of course, Mars, Phobos, and Deimos might be places to get materials to manufacture things from.

But we also have tolerable time latency on and around the Moon, a large human population and computer population on Earth that can do telepresence to the Moon and around it and also things like Tesla Bot.

So, I would not rule it out. Having water from the Moon will not hurt the situation.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-08-19 11:53:55)

Void · 2022-08-19 11:56:47

This is of interest in the issue of Synthetic Gravity: https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/fitnes … 5b9676cdf3

It seems to me that simulated gravity of a higher nature than the Moon or Mars may not require 24/7 immersion. Rather if you can go into it a few hours a day then perhaps that will allow the rest of time to be at lower gravity levels.

I guess people will find out eventually, if they do go to the Moon and Mars, and orbital as well.

Done.

Void · 2022-08-21 09:25:43

This article is a few years old but a goodie, as far as I am concerned: https://www.politico.com/story/2018/07/ … any-718457
Quotes:

Space tugs and fuel depots around the moon?
How would the concept work?
Propellant is expensive. It takes half your mass and propellant to get anywhere down to the moon and back. We send up water to a propellant depot, a production facility that converts that water to oxygen and hydrogen, liquifies it, stores it. We have space tugs that go out to geosynchronous orbit for commercial satellites and put them in orbit so that they can get rid of...propulsion. That’s the first revenue stream.

So, no real surprise, someone else was on to the notion of water in a propellant depot much before me.

I have seen many members fussing about boil-off and active cooling on this board for a long time. All of that is a lot of trouble for objects that are going to change momentum, such as spaceships.

Space Stations/Propellant Depots, are less susceptible to those limitations.

You can have a sunshield, and a mass heavy power supply to generate propellants from easier to handle materials, such as water and CO2.

So, the Moon might supply water, and just possibly CO2 in small quantities it seems possible, and I hope Argon, and perhaps solid materials of value, to a platform in association with the Moon.

Such a platform might include various 'g' force centrifuges. I am hoping that humans will only need to spend a portion of their time in a higher 'g' centrifuge. Then it might be economical to have much more space in minimum 'g' centrifuges.

Minimum 'g' centrifuges might give a sense of up/down, and might make pluming and cleaning more functional than in micro-gravity.

I am hoping that these will not need to be in a vacuum chamber, but that it would be possible to construct them to minimize air drag, to conserve energy and reduce heating.

As for the Moon itself and water, perhaps it may be possible to enhance the water production on the Moon.

Seeming very ambitious, perhaps the Moon could have a magnetosphere that is turned on when the Moon is not in the Earth's magnetic field. It might be leaky on purpose to hope to capture a portion of the solar wind. If it could create and retain more water, it might be worth it. Don't know yet.

If such a field were a dipole magnet, each pole might be centered on a cold trap crater. In this way water may be assisted to a freezing place, and also perhaps Argon that may be outgassed from cracks in the Moon.

If that were done, perhaps some kind of chemical "Getter" might be put in those locations. Something with excessive Oxygen. Maybe Hydrogen Peroxide? Again, I don't know the worth of such a notion or how well it might work.

Again, I don't know but I suspect that an ice containing a proper quantity of Hydrogen Peroxide, if struck by (Hydrogen) Protons may flash chemically to create more OH and H20.

Well, I have to get after some other things for a while,

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-08-21 09:50:12)

Void · 2022-08-21 19:09:14

I respect this presenter. But I am another animal. I do not say that his thinking is wrong, but I want to contrast it with mine. I feel that at the edges these are ultimately compatible to a degree(s).

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Dr … M%3DHDRSC3

I can consider that all of what he says is interesting, and that some of what he says seem like useful measurements to me.

For instance a mirror(s) about the size of Texas could warm up 2% of Mars. That seem sad, but then if you could make such a thing then why couldn't you make 10 more? 100 more?

Calliban and the Finns have made me rethink the whole notion of terraforming Mars. On a practical level you have to "Earn your daily bread, wherever you are. Now this may seem rude if I say that I think that Academic roots does tend to bring questionable practicality. But they are what they should be, they are useful, and it may fall on us to try to bring practical into the situation, if the reader can tolerate my arrogance.

The Finns have supposed a Mega structure to house humans around Ceres, as it has the correct mixture of raw materials.

But I look at Mars/Phobos/Deimos and see the same thing. Ceres is easier to lift materials from than Mars, (Maybe), depends how you get your lifting mechanism. But Phobos and Deimos are still easier, (Depends on what they may have to offer).

So while these people are interested in terraforming Mars, I am more interested in Para terraforming Mars and its orbits.

While the people of his camp have one specialized notion of what to do in space, what people like me may have an interest in is a quicker victory and the ability perhaps to move the similar to the Asteroid Belt, Jupiter and moons, and perhaps many other places.

The two cases could very well work together. But the problem with pushing their case as the only valid case, it is very easy for other Academics to punch holes in that terraform plan, as it requires a lot of time and there is a lot of uncertainty attached to it.

Remember that there are a lot of people in principalities of power that use the tung, to do satanic enslavement. It is not wise to pave the roads for those who only see us as a source of wealth, tax money, grants, etc.

The two concepts should work together to fend off the social predators.

But I will throw a bone. Those types have said that there is not enough resources to build an atmosphere for Mars, (Or the Moon). Well both are to a large degree composed of Oxygen. Given the energy and robotic automation, as I see it there are no permanent impediments to either having a significant atmosphere.

However, as Calliban has pointed out, and atmosphere may interfere with transfers to orbit by Mass Drivers.

I myself like a strong notion of orbital habitats around Mars, (And in the Mars itself), as it is the quickest way for Mars in my opinion, as you can do SSTO on Mars.

It may be that Mars starts as a Mining planet, and eventually we get mined materials from elsewhere. And over time Mars becomes more Earth-Like.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-08-21 19:29:34)

Void · 2022-08-23 18:52:01

I have enjoyed this from Marcus House: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLD4DpuGWUA

Some may think it not quite related to terraforming, but if you are going to terraform or Para Terraform, then you need tools.

The more I think about Terraforming, the more I do not like the idea of "Red Mars, Green Mars, Blue Mars" I never thought it a great idea to flood a big portion of Mars with open water anyway.

And I have taken counsel from members like Antius, and Calliban.

A tool kit to do a cold icy Mars, would also be useful in many other places in the solar system.

The underground habitations of Cappadocia can help understand why also it may be an advantage to have a lower down water table, if you are going to have a water table at all.

https://www.kapadokyadayim.com/en/cappa … ound-city/

These underground structures were facilitated by rock not too hard, so that it could be carved, and a water table that would not flood them.
Rock from volcanic and other sediments, are possible on Mars, and some may be of an ideal strength and hardness.

As I have said before, I am also interested in such rock under ice slabs. Large vaults could also be carved in the ice slabs, and perhaps even some lighting from the sun to enter some of them. So, the use of liquid water reservoirs, might only be done with care, not to damage an underground situation.

A lot of time, on Earth mining becomes unprofitable, if too much water enters the mine and has to be pumped out. I suppose that may be possible to happen somewhere on Mars, but probably at such a magnitude as on Earth, and if it does occur, then of course you have water, which is going to be useful on Mars.

Even on an icy Mars though there is no reason to not expect heated swimming pools, possibly in caves underground but maybe also under some sort of transparency on the surface.

So, it does not have to be a dreary or confining situation at all, I expect, at least not after the economy gets booted up.

In the previous post a person discusses a Texas sized orbital power method that can heat 2% of the Martian surface. But I have always thought that was a wasteful to use energy on Mars to heat the surface, (In most cases). If you use that energy to heat up and light the undergrounds, you could produce much more living space. And yes, in some situations even lakes and possibly seas, just so you don't flood your undergrounds with water.

But such an icy Mars would not totally eliminate the possibility of a surface biosphere, I think that even with double the existing atmospheric pressure you could have microbes and lichens, which would be a start.

But I think it might be very smart to have a low corrosion surface environment, as when the tunnels are dug, you may make machines to put on the surface and in orbit, (Out of the extraced materials), and then may release gasses such as Oxygen.......and maybe others to the atmosphere, and over time build up the atmosphere substantially. But it would be better that the machines be made to resist corrosion, and for the environment to be minimally corrosive as much as is possible.

The total amount of tunnel/chambers space could be huge, as the gravity is only .38 g, and it is possible that water tables would be much less trouble on Mars than on Earth. But you would need to be careful not to heat Mars up on the surface too much.

However selected locations might be warmed 24/7 with orbital mirrors. This might be nice if the atmospheric pressure gets sufficiently high for outdoor habitation without a pressure suit.

Possibly in the lowest places first.

So, I do not agree that there are not enough materials to Para Terraform, or even eventually Terraform Mars.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-08-23 20:12:59)

Calliban · 2022-08-24 05:07:00

Regarding underground cities built on other worlds. Lava tubes on Earth can be 15-30m in diameter, depending upon the type of rock. On Mars, one lava tube found near Pavonis Mons appears to have a diameter of 190m. On the moon, tubes can be 500m in diameter, before gravitational instability causes collapse. Approximately, D~1/g^2. Halve the gravity and stable width quadruples. This assumes rocks of the same compressive strength of course. On a world like Vesta, which is basalt and has gravity no more than a few percent of Earth, caverns many km in diameter woukd be stable.

On icy worlds, gravity is lower, but the compressive strength of ice is only 2-4MPa. This is only 1-2% the compressive strength of rock. On Callisto, with gravity about 1/7 that of Earth, it may be difficult to make caverns or tunnels much bigger than 20-30m in diameter. But that should be sufficient for most human purposes anyway. Ceres appears to be an ice dominated world. Mars and lunar are rock dominated. Tethys is a Saturn moon that is water ice dominated and 1000km in diameter. It's gravity is 1.5% Earth. It should be possible to build icy caverns up to 1km in diameter on Tethys.

On moons like this we can make habitats by either drilling or melting our way through the ice. With a compressive strength of 2-4MPa, ice will be much easier to cut through than most rock. Melting is possible, but melting a single cubic metre of ice from -150°C, would require about 700MJ of heat. This sounds like a job for the aqueous homogenous reactor. A tunnelling machine equipped with a 1000MWth heat source, could melt a 10m diameter tunnel at a rate of 1m per minute, or 526km in 1 year. If the tunnelling machine were equipped with a steam-electric power generator, then it could generate the power needed to both move itself and electrolyse water into hydrogen and oxygen, providing the breathing gas needed to fill the tunnel. The boring machine would then use the melt water as a way of disposing on waste heat. This is a neat solution. Melt water could be pumped to the surface, where it would be used to fill in cracks and crevaces that might destabilise the overburden.

The walls of the tunnels would need to insulated, to prevent direct human contact with the ice and to prevent ammonia from seeping into the air. The natural ice on Jovian moons is cold enough to freeze human flesh off of bone. So insulation is essential. The ice on most of the candidate worlds is dirty and contaminated with silicates. These complicate the pumping of melt water, but are actually useful materials to use for making tunnel linings and other things. Another industrial process could involve melting this material and using it to produce fibreglass insulation panels.

Just one of these machines, could tunnel out and pressurise enough volume for a city of millions of people in just a few years.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-08-24 05:45:04)

Void · 2022-08-24 05:40:54

All useful materials Calliban.

It appears to me that Ceres would be a next major place, along with other asteroids. The Finns, took note that it is thought that Ceres may have significant Nitrogen, and of course Mars does as well. Both of these offer a mix of materials, with a broad spectrum.

I have wondered if Callisto, Ganymede, and perhaps Europa might have significant Nitrogen, embedded in ice, and perhaps in the portions of liquid water. But the "Jupiter Realms" offer again a broad mixture of materials, and hopefully Ammonia buried in those moons.

As you might go further out, a lack of rocky/stony materials occurs. But Saturn's sub system offers Nitrogen, from Titan, and maybe Saturn itself.

Enceladus may offer accessible rocky/stony materials, but of course if it does have life, then I would seek another source(s).

The Solar wind of the sun offers a method to send rocky/stony materials from more inward worlds to the more outward worlds.

But in time I would be thinking that a smaller icy moon could be mined down into its stony/rocky core.

And so on. I do agree a great deal with your concepts.

Back to Mars, we don't know what happens if you have an almost limitless labor pool. Robotics could offer that. It would be a rather stupid human race that would make most of its robot's super smart. For the majority of robots, a small intelligence and I suppose a beehive mind might be all you need, to provide a massive amount of simple replicated actions.

This machine would be a good start on what to do with materials extracted from the crust of Mars, to make tunnels and caverns.

https://www.freethink.com/space/lunar-r … surface%29.

I would expect it to produce an excess of Oxygen, provided you had the labor and energy. The solids left over could be treated with grinding to release the metal particles, and various methods such as magnetic fields, would be able to produce a high-quality set of "Ores", to create manufactured materials with.

In my view, it would not only be the Martian undergrounds where large amounts of habitat could be created, but the materials created by the "Spoils", could then also allow construction of things on or near the surface.

Then also placing items in the orbits of the hill sphere of Mars would grant large amounts of energy from sunlight. Unlike the surface of Mars, orbital solar will be predictable, and would respond to concentrating mirrors.

While Rockets, Mass Drivers, and Tethers may join the orbits to the surface, it may prove true that space elevators will eventually be within the grasp of those living on and around Mars.

Here is one concept for it: https://marspedia.org/Space_elevator

But I realize that any space elevator, even for Mars will be a very hard thing to become proficient at but let's just say we think it may eventually be possible.

So, then we will have solar energy, both orbital and surface, likely fission energy, possibly fusion energy, and possibly geothermal energy.

If new Nitrogen were not yet available, then however, a largely Oxygen dominated atmosphere of ~333 millibar might be ideal, as you could have a heat sink situation, and even so have some spots in near constant reflected sunlight. You could use radiative cooling and evaporative cooling with water, and so really an ideal world someday.

And it will also be possible to send water vapor to the high atmosphere of Mars to be split into Oxygen and Hydrogen. It might be possible to snag some of the Hydrogen produced that way using orbital and tether methods.

But as we have discussed before it would likely be preferred to not excessively heat the planet and as previously stated we would not want to flood the undergrounds either, I expect, except for intentional controlled impoundments.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-08-24 06:03:15)

Void · 2022-08-24 09:10:39

I wanted to mention atmospheres for Mars. Previously I read that for Mars to be like Earth, (Sort of), it would need 1 bar of CO2, or 2 bar of Earth Atmosphere simulant.

As I have mentioned sometimes, I am beginning to think that neither of those are what we should want.

I think now, that at the beginning we try to inflate the atmosphere, while having concerns about how that may affect the movement of mass from Mars to orbits. My guess just now is that a complete evaporation of surface CO2 would be tolerable and would allow Mass Driver action from some high elevations.

As far as moving towards an almost completely O2 atmosphere, this would take time, and I have seen values of 333 millibar as supporting human life, but per what I recall of GWJohnson, perhaps even as low as 250 millibar.

So, at 333 millibars, I estimate that that is about 1/6th of what is needed to melt Mars like Earth.

250 millibars presumably is about 1/8th of what is needed to melt Mars like Earth.

But I have already said why "I do not want to melt Mars like Earth". The cold is valuable. Also being able to breath an atmosphere without a pressure suit is valuable. And if the atmosphere is still toxic so you cannot breathe it, still not needing a pressure suit is valuable.

While you might want to use some greenhouse gasses and other methods to evaporate CO2 from polar and seasonal deposits, as you might move the air pressure up with O2, you might want to cut back on the greenhouse gasses.

While making an O2 atmosphere with the labors of humans alone might take an eternity, with automation and also perhaps with using the nature of the high atmosphere to be spilt water molecules, it might not be out of reach. And also, Oxygen and perhaps other items can be extracted from tunneling spoils, and those spoils could also give structure materials for underground, on the surface and in orbits.

This could be an ideal world for humans. Just needs a bit of attitude adjustment to tolerate new things and methods.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-08-24 09:21:51)

Void · 2022-08-24 09:35:20

OK, I have had this on my mind for small worlds, multi-shells.

Also using a magnetic field for protection, I am hoping that the "Cracks" between the shells would be cold enough to condense escaped molecules like water and maybe even Oxygen and Nitrogen.

Only 3 shells are shown, but perhaps the entire surface would be covered this way. The lower portions where the desired condensation might occur would be well insulated to keep interior heat in. The upper surfaces might be radiators.

And of course, I support a variation of what the Finns have proposed for Ceres. I don't know how big of a gravitational field will allow this sort of thing.

https://www.sciencealert.com/could-huma … anet-ceres

Like this: https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2021/01/19 … 602061.jpg

And of course, this might be where the use of Space Elevators might be first tried.

Or Vesta? It seems to have hydrated minerals with Carbon: https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/dawn-sees … t-asteroid

So, several worlds, and Mars could be a jumping off point to them?

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-08-24 09:41:59)

Void · 2022-08-25 09:05:01

This item shows up from time to time. In this case they mention making bricks as well as Oxygen, and "Metal Alloys".

https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articl … r-mankind/
Quote:

One giant breath for mankind
By Praharsha Anand
Published Wednesday, November 11, 2020
The European Space Agency (ESA) is making pure oxygen out of lunar dust. Will this innovation allow humans to settle on the Moon once and for all?

Of course this is pointed at the Moon and proposes to do what has been mentioned.

I am interested then to further use the processes of corrosion, and perhaps microbes to do more processing of the solid residue that this ESA/Brit process may produce.

For one thing I recall that steel wool allowed to rust in water can produce free Hydrogen.

And I presume you can formulate different types of corrosive environments, and environments for bioreactors.

So, the outputs may be variable, and may include some metals corroding at a higher rate than others.

So, I am thinking that multiple passes might work to produce concentrates or desired substances.

Also possible to include between steps could be the contents of post #454:

So, I will go into the beneficiation of ores as that is what I am somewhat experienced in.
Some articles:
https://ioresearchhub.newcastle.edu.au/ … %20More%20
https://www.911metallurgist.com/blog/be … n-iron-ore
Quote:
Beneficiation of Iron Ore and the treatment of magnetic iron taconites, stage grinding and wet magnetic separation is standard practice. This also applies to iron ores of the non-magnetic type which after a reducing roast are amenable to magnetic separation. All such plants are large tonnage operations treating up to 50,000 tons per day and ultimately requiring grinding as fine as minus 500-mesh for liberation of the iron minerals from the siliceous gangue.
Magnetic separation methods are very efficient in making high recovery of the iron minerals, but production of iron concentrates with less than 8 to 10% silica in the magnetic cleaning stages becomes inefficient. It is here that flotation has proven most efficient. Wet magnetic finishers producing 63 to 64% Fe concentrates at 50-55% solids can go directly to the flotation section for silica removal down to 4 to 6% or even less. Low water requirements and positive silica removal with low iron losses makes flotation particularly attractive. Multistage cleaning steps generally are not necessary. Often roughing off the silica froth without further cleaning is adequate.
Image Quote: https://z4y6y3m2.rocketcdn.me/blog/wp-c … on-Ore.png
The facility that I worked at included some of the above features, but flotation, (At the facility), was just experimental at that time.
The objective was to make ceramic pellets with a high iron content, that could go into a furnace situation. They would breathe well, because of the gaps between pellets. Raw Iron ore alone may not be as good for air flows.
So, people who make iron and steel, are like bakers mixing stuff and with a "Baking recipe".
A metallurgist told me that our ore was desirable was that it did not have much in the way of impurities. I know that there is an ore deposit in our state that is not worthwhile, as it has Manganese in it, or so I did read.
Things I am attracted to are the dunes of Mars, the metals of Phobos and Deimos, and what may be under ice slabs. Having an ice slab would shelter the extraction and make processes and would provide water for a wet method.
But I see that there are dry methods in development.
Also, I was attracted to this:
This also applies to iron ores of the non-magnetic type which after a reducing roast are amenable to magnetic separation.
We did not do that, but it is interesting. I suppose you would use heat and Hydrogen or CO to do that reduction to magnetic iron in the content, and then a magnetic separation.
So, apparently Iron is a really big thing on Earth, perhaps 90% of metals per Peter Zeihan.
My notion of tunnels/canals under the ice slabs, is not as stupid as it may seem.
You have to get to the ore and have to transport the bulk of it.
Such tunnels could have regolith bottoms or ice bottoms or even contain a cold-water canal. Probably some of each.
In searching for iron ore under an ice slab, other ores may also be turned up to a discovery.
Calliban and kdb512 have recently spoken about creating crude iron products, by methods similar to those already known.
It may also be that a Mond process could be used???
And the Brits/Europeans have a method to extract Oxygen and alloys from Lunar regolith that might be adaptable.
https://www.freethink.com/space/lunar-r … surface%29.
So, it might be possible to do a run through the European machine to reduce the content, and then do a magnetic separation of the remainder to concentrate the magnetic materials, such as iron and maybe Nickle?

Done.

This may be more possible on Mars than the moon, concerning local resources such as water and CO2, but lets not rule it out for the Moon.

In the quote are materials about magnetic separations and also bubble separation processes.

I think that corrosion rates may depend on water, and chemicals mixed into the water and also temperature of the fluid mix, and in some cases, microbes added to the mix.

For Mars of course as I have mentioned before I am interested in sand dune materials.

I am pausing for breakfast.......

OK, after that.......

The production of useful materials may involve multi-staged actions. This, post includes reduction and Oxidation for various purposes.

These could be completely abiotic or may at some points involve biology.

I have a tendency to support the use of dune materials as a source. They supposedly include Iron, Chromium, and Titanium, and I suppose many other things like silica, and some Oxygen.

The attraction is that they are already ground down, which can be a burden if you have to do it to large ore materials.

The European/British machine produces "Alloys", which may be easy to corrode in water with an acid nature?

However maybe not with iron and Chromium. So, as I want a path to produce fuels by corroding metals and perhaps other materials, certain separation processes might be desired. Maybe to produce relatively pure iron.

This may support one version of the corrosion process: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 9920310247
Quote:

Abstract
Hydrogen gas generation from water in the temperature range of 10–60 °C using iron and carbon dioxide was studied. During the reaction, carbon dioxide consumption and hydrogen generation were observed, and the stoichiometry of the redox reaction with iron carbonation was checked. The rate of the reaction steadily increased with the temperature, and the time required to consume half of the carbon dioxide at 60 °C was less than one-fifth of that at 10 °C. The activation energy was determined by examining the temperature dependence of the reaction rate. Carbon dioxide used in the reaction precipitated as carbonate in the aqueous phase, covering the raw material iron and hindering the progress of hydrogen generation reaction. Experiments following the same procedure were performed using steel and sludge from steel processing, which contained elements other than iron, to show that hydrogen generation and carbon dioxide fixation were also possible.

So, this may fit in with using Microbes as well: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech … erals.html
Quote:

Space miners could use BACTERIA to extract valuable metals and minerals from rocks on Mars and the Moon, experiments on board the ISS confirm
Scottish researchers produce a device that uses bacteria to remove minerals
The microbes are already used on Earth to mine for gold, copper and uranium
In a three week study, the device was used on basalt rock samples on the ISS
Finding the technique works in low gravity means it could be used by astronauts living and working on the Moon and Mars over the coming few decades
By RYAN MORRISON FOR MAILONLINE
PUBLISHED: 11:00 EDT, 10 November 2020 | UPDATED: 15:53 EDT, 11 November 2020
e-mail
16
shares

For this it becomes like a baker's activity with specified sequences of ingredients, and the choice of microbes. Temperatures and mixtures of course would matter.

By using the European/British machine, then producing a mass of reduced solids, by then adding parts or all of that, a fluid mixture of Water and Martian Atmosphere, then corrosion. By selecting microbes in a batch perhaps influencing the extraction of substances.

In certain circumstances this might also produce clays, I think.

But then if desired you could put the results back into a reducing method such as the European/British machine.

So, a source of Oxygen and perhaps also fuels, while doing materials concentrations.

I think that is pretty good.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-08-25 11:31:44)

Void · 2022-08-25 12:30:48

I thought this is a good video from Isaac Arthur: https://isaacarthur.net/video/the-first … ettlement/
Quote:

The First Space Settlement
Aug 25, 2022

I am a bit more shy about space elevators than he is, but really "What do I know?".

If he is closer to right than me, then that is a good thing.

Done.

Void · 2022-08-25 18:29:30

The Angry astronaut, MOXIE and Ingenuity may work, but they suck! There's better solutions for Elon Musk's Mars!

Well, he has an opinion, and I prefer to learn if possible: https://www.reddit.com/r/TheAngryAstron … ck_theres/

I think it is good to do a broad evaluation before committing to a plan.

In fact, I want to keep the two devices he does not like but I also want to investigate strongly the two devices or methods he does like.

Done

Last edited by Void (2022-08-25 18:50:37)

Void · 2022-08-25 18:51:34

The materials of post #464 can use a little more in the way of conversation, I feel.

I think that Calliban and I agree that we want a method to reduce a raw material ore. This could be the European/Brit Calcium Chloride method or to push heated Hydrogen though the ore, and this would produce Oxygen in the one case and water in the other case.

It is also possible then to separate magnetic grains from less magnetic grains, and so likely a beneficiated ore from a raw source.

And then the notion is to smelt for instance iron or even steel from that.

But the "Tailings", or waste materials might be then placed into a corrosive environment to produce Hydrogen and maybe clay.

For this purpose, I suggest an ice-covered body of water which is also similar to a solar pond.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_pond

But I am going to deviate. Calliban has suggested that we could use a body of water as a radiator for a nuclear power plant. Of course Solar Thermal could also be used.

The water in this pond would be various gradients of salty, and that is intended for several reasons. So, it may be a problem to avoid corrosion in fine machinery, so the reactor would have to be protected sufficiently by some means.

But you could dump heat into the various layers, (Salt gradients), of water and provide an environment for the corrosion of "Tailings" that have been reduced.

I might suggest taking in cold less salty water at the top as coolant, then heating it and distilling water from it, and then heating it sufficiently for it to become very salty bottom water for this purpose.

Wash water and grey water which would not be salty could be returned back to the top layers, as make-up water.

You would likely also take some water from an ice slab to give sufficient additional make-up water, to maintain a proper fill of the pond.

The tailings would corrode and would release Hydrogen, which might be recovered.

It may also be possible to add Martian Atmosphere so that CO2 would also help to corrode the reduced materials.

In the end you may end up with a clay like material. I think that for that PH might need to be controlled. I am going to look it up.

Pause......

https://www.sciencelearn.org.nz/resourc … 0of%20time.

Making clay may not be compatible with adding CO2, not sure yet.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clay
Oh! This quote looks good:

Formation
Italian and African-American clay miners in mine shaft, 1910.
Clay minerals most commonly form by prolonged chemical weathering of silicate-bearing rocks. They can also form locally from hydrothermal activity.[14] Chemical weathering takes place largely by acid hydrolysis due to low concentrations of carbonic acid, dissolved in rainwater or released by plant roots. The acid breaks bonds between aluminium and oxygen, releasing other metal ions and silica (as a gel of orthosilicic acid).)[15]
The clay minerals formed depend on the composition of the source rock and the climate. Acid weathering of feldspar-rich rock, such as granite, in warm climates tends to produce kaolin. Weathering of the same kind of rock under alkaline conditions produces illite. Smectite forms by weathering of igneous rock under alkaline conditions, while gibbsite forms by intense weathering of other clay minerals.[16]
There are two types of clay deposits: primary and secondary. Primary clays form as residual deposits in soil and remain at the site of formation. Secondary clays are clays that have been transported from their original location by water erosion and deposited in a new sedimentary deposit.[17] Secondary clay deposits are typically associated with very low energy depositional environments such as large lakes and marine basins.[14]

So, it actually looks like a potential way to create clays while also producing Hydrogen. Of course, it would need testing.

It is also reasonable to expect organic materials to build up, so this might be a good way to make a part of gardening soil, perhaps you could mix it with washed sand and create something like loam.

Good Enough!

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-08-25 19:13:43)

Void · 2022-08-27 09:49:48

I think that this is a demonstration of how some reduced materials can react with water, and release Hydrogen.

I would not choose the materials of this video, but it is a good demonstration.

This Liquid Metal Turns Garbage into fuel, "The Action Web"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pqyaIiBlCY

Done

Void · 2022-08-27 10:48:32

The previous posts and some parts of posts before it suggests that it may be possible to first reduce regolith materials, then extract parts such as Iron for use, and then use the remnants to produce Hydrogen and perhaps Hydrocarbons.

I begin typically with looking at the sand dunes, as they resemble the beneficiated materials, we used to produce in Taconite processing facilities.

Much of the grinding process has already been done, however. Possibly a real benefit.

But where there may be valuable ore bodies, then the full spectrum of needed processing would be justified, if mining were deemed worth the trouble.

Done.

Void · 2022-08-29 20:54:23

So, I think I will shift gears here for a while and do speculations on the Earth's climate(s).

Much of what I will say is not of my origination.

Wood Bison: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_bison
Quote:

Its original range included much of the boreal forest regions of Alaska, Yukon, western Northwest Territories, northeastern British Columbia, northern Alberta, and northwestern Saskatchewan.[8]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_Buff … ional_Park

https://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?a … the%20wild.

Video: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Wo … M%3DHDRSC3

In this video, you can see the difference in albedo between the grass/Marshlands, and the evergreens, especially in the winter snows.

They have also been introduced into Yakutia in Russia: https://tass.com/society/1070217

It is not proven if the Megafauna of the Mammoth Steppe died out first, or if the death of the Mammoth Steppe, lead to the losses of the animals. I am inclined to think that humans may have played a role in the reduction in the amount of the animals.

The Mammoth Steppe used to have animal analogs for many of the animals in Africa.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammoth_steppe

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleistocene_Park
Quote:

Pleistocene Park
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigationJump to search
This article is about the existing Pleistocene Park in Siberia. For information on proposed Pleistocene parks elsewhere, see Pleistocene rewilding.
Ambox current red Americas.svg
This article needs to be updated. Please help update this article to reflect recent events or newly available information. (April 2020)
Pleistocene Park
Плейстоценовый парк
Ice age fauna of northern Spain - Mauricio Antón.jpg
Depiction of some mammals common in northern Eurasia during the late Pleistocene, by Mauricio Antón. From left to right: wild horse, woolly mammoth, reindeer, cave lion and woolly rhinoceros.
Pleistocene Park is located in RussiaPleistocene Park
Location Russian Arctic, Sakha Republic
Nearest city Chersky
Coordinates 68°30′48″N 161°31′32″ECoordinates: 68°30′48″N 161°31′32″E
Area 20 km2 (8 sq mi)
Established 1988 / 1996
Founder Sergey Zimov
Director Nikita Zimov
Website pleistocenepark.de/en/ Edit this at Wikidata
Pleistocene Park (Russian: Плейстоценовый парк, romanized: Pleystotsenovyy park) is a nature reserve on the Kolyma River south of Chersky in the Sakha Republic, Russia, in northeastern Siberia, where an attempt is being made to re-create the northern subarctic steppe grassland ecosystem that flourished in the area during the last glacial period.[1][a]
The project is being led by Russian scientists Sergey Zimov and Nikita Zimov,[3][4][5][6][7] testing the hypothesis that repopulating with large herbivores (and predators) can restore rich grasslands ecosystems, as expected if overhunting, and not climate change, was primarily responsible for the extinction of wildlife and the disappearance of the grasslands at the end of the Pleistocene epoch.[8][9]
The aim of the project is to research the climatic effects of the expected changes in the ecosystem. Here the hypothesis is that the change from tundra to grassland will result in a raised ratio of energy emission to energy absorption of the area, leading to less thawing of permafrost and thereby less emission of greenhouse gases.[8][9] It is also thought that removal of snow by large herbivores will further reduce the permafrost's insulation.
To study this, large herbivores have been released, and their effect on the local fauna is being monitored. Preliminary results point at the ecologically low-grade tundra biome being converted into a productive grassland biome and at the energy emission of the area being raised.[10]

There is some hope of eventually de-extinction of some of the other animals such as the Mammoth.
It is considered likely that the Mammoth like the Elephant may have knocked trees over as a habit, helping to maintain grasslands, and also so making the landscape reflect more sunlight back into space. Also, it is considered that animals trampling the snow would reduce its insulating character, and so allowing winter cold to more creep into the ground and maintain the permafrost.

I think it will take some time to bring back the Mammoth, if ever, and that robots with herbicide may help to bring back the grasslands and the fertility they offer. This would not be to spray herbicides, rather an injection into the trees.

The allowance of forest fires should also be considered, to help restore a balance of northern savannah patches of grasslands and forests.

This then would be related to how some people think that a darkening of the Martian ice caps would help to terraform Mars, but in this case, we hope to cool the Earth.

There is one caution for this. You do not want to facilitate deer that carry pathogens to come in contact with Moose. The moose apparently do not have sufficient immunity for what the deer may carry.

Not natural to the Canadian Shield, but still where grass might grow it may be considered if this could be implemented on the Canadian Shield. Many places do not have Propper soil in that "Biome", but some may.

I might guess that these northern lands where any typical farming can happen, may support such modified biomes to cool the planet and to also provide additional food. I would prefer to see the human race get away from eating anything with a face, but we don't have that luxury yet.

I would like to also then go to the issue of Deserts, and the role they have in distributing iron to the Oceans, where it stimulates the growth of Algas.

The greening of the deserts will inhibit the (Sort of), "Natural" distribution of iron to the oceans. This greening can be by intention of humans, and also by the elevation of CO2 in the atmosphere.

As others have said, Quote: "We do not live on a Natural Planet".

Here again we have the option to consider where we can artificially introduce nutrients to the oceans or draw them up to the surface from the deep, (Perhaps while generating benefits of fresh water and energy".

You should not be deceived, the "Greens" are wicked people, or their delusional followers. They wish you to be slaves or to be dead. (With the probability of some exceptions).

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-08-29 21:31:38)

Void · 2022-08-30 04:20:07

Query: "Pleistocene Park"

Then select video if you like: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Pl … ORM=HDRSC3

A nice video. It also displays a "Permafrost Cave": https://www.bing.com/search?q=Pleistoce … b44432dca7

The permafrost cave may show how things might be done in some places on Mars. kbd512 had recently talked about making vertical enclosures in the permafrost on Mars.

Done

Last edited by Void (2022-08-30 04:25:36)

Void · 2022-09-01 10:26:18

Back to Mars then, I guess. This is yet another appropriation from another topic by me to here. Even if I put materials I like in a serial fashion here, it will be hard to rediscover, but easier than when it is out there in the jungle of topics. So, when I see something, I like I prefer to also include it here and perhaps also provide an alternate development as well.

From "Index» Life support systems» Possible timelines for martian agriculture?"
From post #33 by "Mars_B4_Moon", this: https://medium.com/predict/a-breakthrou … dec6805184

My response in post #35:

Multiple pathways to process the raw results of the plasma process to "Decompose" CO2, probably exist. One path would be biological, and another would be to use solar thermal.
Biological:
https://newatlas.com/biology/air-eating … ica-artic/
Quote:
This phenomenon is known as atmospheric chemosynthesis.
And now in a follow-up study, the team has found that this ability may not be limited to Antarctica. The researchers found that the two genes previously linked to atmospheric chemosynthesis are abundant in soil in two other similar environments – the Arctic and the Tibetan Plateau.
There is every reason to believe that life found out how to do this a very long time ago.
Something like it exists in the bark of trees. Trees pull Methane out of the ground and microbes eat it in the trees bark, presumably using Oxygen available.
This is a bit related: https://news.mit.edu/2022/great-oxygena … robes-0314
Quote:
MIT News | Massachusetts Institute of Technology
SUBSCRIBETO MIT NEWS NEWSLETTER
BROWSE
Enter keywords to search for news articles:
SEARCH NEWS
Submit
Microbes and minerals may have set off Earth’s oxygenation
Scientists propose a new mechanism by which oxygen may have first built up in the atmosphere
Jennifer Chu | MIT News Office
Publication Date:March 14, 2022
One process I think might work is to take the raw output from the Plasma, CO and O2, and dissolve it into water reservoirs, and provide microbes to facilitate chemical actions. However, the minerals in the enclosure could also be involved.
You would also want to include some Nitrogen from the Martian atmosphere, presuming a path to its use were to become existent.
First thinking may suppose that the microbes would consume all the CO and O2, and the result would be CO2, again and the Nitrogen you also introduced. But the Microbes have to build Hydrocarbons in their bodies. So, they will keep some of the Carbon and will have to get Hydrogen from the water they are in.
So, some of the possible sources of O2 would be, what you injected, what is in the H20 that the microbes extract Hydrogen from, and possibly Oxygen from the Minerals in the water impoundment. This would leave an excess of Oxygen, unless all of the biomass of the microbes were then Oxidized. Even then if some Oxygen is coming from minerals there would still be excess Oxygen.
So, this process would be simplified as you would not have to purposely separate the O2 and CO from the output of decomposed CO2 from the Plasma process.
The remnant gasses would likely contain lots of Oxygen, but maybe too much CO2, and perhaps still too much CO. Not sure. But then it might be entirely suitable for cryogenic processing or membranes. Cryogenic would likely be able to pull out the CO2. You might scrub out the remnant CO, with yet another stage of microbial consumption. Eating CO and Breathing a part of the O2.
And you also would get biomass, which may be of some use. As for the minerals preferred, it is possible that Martian soil, which may include perchlorates would work well in some cases, for some microbes.
Not sure, but this may even be a way to make iron in those soils reduced, and perhaps even magnetic, so that magnetic separation could be applied.
The CO is after all a reducing agent, and microbes that "Breath" Rocks and Perchlorates might do the job.
Solar Thermal is obvious:
You separate the CO from the Oxygen by some means, and then push it and water steam into a very hot oven. Probably powered by a multitude of heliostats. This should result in Hydrocarbons, and CO2.
If you then have this syngas, there are ways to extract Hydrogen from it, I believe.
https://news.mit.edu/2022/great-oxygena … robes-0314
Quote:
Steam-methane reforming
Steam-methane reforming is a widely used method of commercial hydrogen production Steam-methane reforming currently accounts for nearly all commercially produced hydrogen in the United States. Commercial hydrogen producers and petroleum refineries use steam-methane reforming to separate hydrogen atoms from carbon atoms in methane (CH 4).
In order to have a chemistry for a Industrial economy on Mars more than one trick is needed I expect.

I do like the biological approach. If the biomass can be collected, you could extract hydrocarbons and Hydrogen from that.
Done.

Well, there is a problem with that last link, but I found this which seems interesting: https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/hyd … 8CH%204%29.
Image Quote: https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/hyd … n_eere.png

Well since I screwed up the part on steam reforming perhaps this will help: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_reforming

------

So, I sort of like the plasma method to decompose CO2 to CO and O2, and the notion of adding regolith with available Oxygen to a water reservoir along with those gasses.

A saline body of water with an ice cover, also protected mechanically, may be a good place to do all of this. The temperatures of the bottom water can be warmer which would quicken biology and chemical reactions.

A minimal airlock on top of the ice would allow heavy equipment to dump Oxygen laden regolith into the bottom waters.
The minimal airlock might be just a fraction of a bar in variable pressure. The water column itself being a major part of elevating pressures at the bottom of the impoundment.

The processing may be continuous or perhaps batch in nature.

So, a bit like lungs, this thing might breathe. You would have an "Inhale" mode where you pushed O2 and CO and Nitrogen in, and then an "Exhale" mode where you pulled out Oxygen, and metal bearing reduced regolith. At least that is what I would hope for. Separating the two modes may be important as you would not want to risk getting a poison mix out. You would give time for the microbes to consume the CO, and the Perchlorates, and Oxygen in regolith and water.

While nuclear might be a good power supply, I would note that this process might "Inhale" during the day, and "Exhale" during the night, so it may fit into solar power rather well, as well.

------

I believe that this process can bypass photosynthesis. However as most of the pressurized water column would not be in strong use it might be considered to host this type of thing as well in the water: http://www.nemosgarden.com/

Here again if you use solar power, then you can get a good use of a surplus if you use artificial lights.

I do like cave gardens with artificial light, but it can be noted that these may be more proximate to the source of solar electricity on the surface, which might well be solar panels that help protect the ice layer over the impoundment.

These may not be diving bells but instead full bubbles, so as to isolate from the CO in the water.

Just something to consider.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-09-01 10:57:49)

Void · 2022-09-01 11:17:03

So, I think I am pleased with the stimulation I have gotten from other members. I think the materials of the last post may be a very powerful terraform tool, that will put the deniers on their posteriors.

Calliban has given a good caution about losing atmosphere to the regolith, but this process may well do the reverse, and also provide building materials

These waters will generally not be running. But also, if microbes can pull Oxygen out of the regolith, will build up atmospheric Oxygen, and perhaps CO2 and just maybe Nitrogen. A possible replacement of Volcanism.

So, eventually under these circumstances where the net amount of atmosphere absorbed to regolith and lost to space, is less than that generated to the atmosphere from the regolith, then I would think that a good atmosphere could eventually be achieved for Mars, and that be maintained indefinitely.

The process would also generate greenhouse gasses and fuels, so that part of terraforming would be covered as well.

We can consider another look at the giant ice slabs, and the polar ice caps themselves as I think I recently noted kdb512 had ideas about.

Raw materials for ice slabs on Mars:
https://www.space.com/30502-mars-giant- … ts%20added.

Quote:

The ice the scientists found measures 130 feet (40 m) thick and lies just beneath the dirt, or regolith, or Mars.
"It extends down to latitudes of 38 degrees. This would be like someone in Kansas digging in their backyard and finding ice as thick as a 13-story building that covers an area the size of Texas and California combined," Bramson said.

So now using feet, for water, 100 feet in a .38 g field is ~1 bar of pressure. Ice is about 90% as heavy as water.

How thick you wanted the water layer or ice layer would be according to needs, I guess.

The ice slabs have plenty of regolith on top of them, most of it relatively loose. I don't know how much perchlorate, but maybe enough to care about.

Ice is a good insulator, perhaps you could leave a nominal 50 feet of ice above, so the leakage of heat would be rather slow. You might have unpressurized sheds over the ice, and those might have solar panels as roofs. Robots could function inside of those sheds doing work.
Tending as well to plasma devices to generate Oxygen and CO from the CO of the atmosphere.

The bulk of the regolith above the ice sheets might be dumped into the water down a multistage airlock system, to provide Oxygen and minerals feed.

Eventually covering much of the surface of Mars, these may also treat dust that can blow in the atmosphere. That is grab some of it and dump it into the water and eliminate it from the surface environment. Dust can help warm a planet up, I have read, but Mars has much too much of it.

Under this water could be a vast network of tunnels and chambers. The spoils from that excavation to then also contribute materials to the process.

And yes, there can be transport methods, of various kinds to move water where it is wanted most. Canals and pipelines can be included.

I think this will work out well.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-09-01 11:31:05)

Void · 2022-09-01 12:04:31

The previous two posts have a generic formulation on what to do with water and ice on Mars. I am guessing that 2/3 of the planet might be treated to become more useful this way.

When I said shed, that could also include transparent "Domes". Maybe some could have water all the way up if the pressure inside them is at least 100 millibar. 250 to 333, might be shirt sleeve for humans. It might be noted that if these sprung a leak, humans inside might be able to swim down to the bottom to escape injury and death. I think that over time technology to be good at making things like this may be very good. These would likely be very good to grow sun bases things.

Of course, bodies of water could be partitioned by berms, so that if one has a toxic process, it will not mandate that they all would.

In actuality you could have an artificial crater made of berms, where you put a dome over it. You could have connections to the undergrounds, and also the surrounding waters. Perhaps as much pressure as 1 bar. But of course, humans will need to get very good at this technology to be able to trust it.

Placing lights in a body of water has been suggested by Dr. Robert Zubrin, so that is not ruled out.

I think this collection might cover needs.

Done.

Void · 2022-09-01 20:26:28

I guess I want to do a summary of what I think is possible for Mars in the long term.

I think that getting new atmosphere from the crust is very possible, and at the same time to build masses of useful machinery from the solids.

The quantity of dust can be controlled by collection and distribution to water reservoirs.

An enormous web of tunnels can be dug all around Mars, and very deep. The spoils from that can be processed for more atmosphere, and for the materials for the machines.

Ice can be molded into chambers, tunnels, canals, and reservoirs.

Energy can be nuclear, solar on the surface, solar in orbit, and maybe geothermal.

A vast amount of living space could also be created in orbit.

Space Elevators may eventually work for Mars. The thing I am shy about for them is impactors. However, I wonder if lasers directed could fend them away from the space elevators?

It appears to me that the crust of Mars may be metals rich.

So, rather than a meager economy, I am thinking that Mars and its associated objects could be very rich, and a good place for people to move to. It will simply be a matter of time, application of effort, and inventions to come.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-09-01 20:33:35)

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