Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Void · 2022-08-02 17:32:25

This is exactly what I like to see, an alternative method, especially from another sub-culture or people.

From "Index» Human missions» Space Station V", Post #64:

Mars_B4_Moon
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New 1300ft 'lunar city' with artificial gravity will allow babies to be born on the moon
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-new … l-27567886
People Could Live in Rotating Cones On the Moon or Mars in the Future
https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/ … he-future/

My questions on this would be radiation, and why give spin gravity to major gardens. but still it is good.

It may be that on a future Mars if atmosphere is doubled in thickness, and an artificial magnetic field is applied to the planet the issue of radiation will not be that much to fear.

Perhaps also I need to understand more. More learning perhaps.

But I will also suggest that such a device could be in an ice cavern or a cave of sandstone.

Mars, it seems may have very deep layers of sediments alternating with lava. Without Plate Tectonics, I am guessing it has been piling up for billions of years.

Isaac Arthur is also a source of thinking for centrifuges on small worlds.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-08-05 11:26:54)

Void · 2022-08-04 11:14:05

Orbital Solar Power Station:

https://wonderfulengineering.com/the-uk … io%20waves.
Quote:

The UK Is Making A Planning A $20 Billion Orbital Solar Power Station – And They Want SpaceX To Help Launch It

https://newatlas.com/space/uk-governmen … lant-2050/

https://www.campuslately.com/the-uk-wil … ng-spacex/

Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-based_solar_power

I am no expert, but I can hope it works out. I see this a possibly being associated with Lunar resources eventually, and assistance of propulsion of spacecraft.

In the case which would exist for the windy parts of Europe, a mirror electrical load in space, (I am not talking about actual mirrors), might process materials and also possibly eventually give other methods of propulsion such as Lasers.

When the wind was good for the UK, for instance, more power could be consumed in orbit, and obviously if the surface power grid was underpowered, then not as much.

I am certainly not an expert, but I would like to think that semi-raw materials from the Moon being brought to geosynchronous power stations might be further processed to produce more solar panels and to produce Oxygen, and perhaps metal/ceramic products to be used on site or exported.

As for the lifting and transfer process, my ideas are not deeply developed, more they are a desire, maybe not possible, but maybe possible.

Where usually we think of processing them in a "L" location, I think that the possibility to further expand solar power in orbit would be of value, and of course the Oxygen refill available at these platforms would be of value. It is also possible that products to send to Mars could be manufactured on such platforms.

Perhaps by the time this would develop, robotics such as Tesla Bot will also be ready to be of use on those platforms and guided by Humans and computers on Earth.

And as I have indicated previously there should be some evaluation as to if these power plants, would be able to extend growing seasons for crops, in the fall, by warding off frost. I believe the article said that a person in the rectenna would receive a warming of about 1/4 of sunlight. Assuming it is functioning correctly.

If the winds storage are good, then maybe using the energy on crops won't be noticed, otherwise, brown-outs or black-outs for the consumers on Earth, in the late evening or early mornings on a few days in the fall.

So, the justification for the power plants may be the manufacture of product at those sites, and perhaps in assisting farming. This might help to pay the bills.

As for radiation, this might be a place to learn to use magnetics to help and also by having water which may come from several sources, to also explore orbital radiation shielding along with agricultural productivity in orbit. However, I don't feel that if a robot can do the work humans should be as large a population in Geo synch.

I would expect this to be a possible productive use of Starships, and knockoffs of such.

And of course, I have been thinking of how all of this might also be done for Mars.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-08-04 11:35:52)

Void · 2022-08-04 12:17:06

Looking at North America, of course there are 3 wind intense areas, the coasts and the Great Plains. So, what is true for the winds of Europe would likely be similarly handled for those.

But looking at Solar, it is pretty obvious that it has a seasonal nature. So, it you have an orbital power grid in geosynchronous, you could expect to use more power in orbit in the sunny times for North America than for the Winter.

And then also if I understand, you could also distribute power between orbital use and surface use on the basis of the weather conditions as they change.

And once again, it might be that agriculture would be enhanced for frost preventions in the fall, if I understand the capabilities.

Having periods of time to process materials in geosynchronous, may be very important to the expansion of humans into space.

Perhaps materials can come from Asteroids as well, to Geosynchronous orbit, but I am not capable to be sure of that.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-08-04 12:23:55)

Void · 2022-08-04 12:52:25

This query may educate. I need a lot of further understanding: "Transfer of Earth, Lunar and Asteroidal Materials"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Transfer+ … b6&pc=U531

This query then "Moon to geosynchronous Orbit"

https://technology.nasa.gov/patent/TOP2-272

Well, I still don't know enough about getting materials from the Moon to Geosynchronous orbit. Perhaps Argon in an electric rocket could be involved.

I am guessing that somewhere along the way the Ores could be beneficiated to reduce the amount of less wanted materials and to enhance the amount of more wanted materials.

If a Mass driver from the Moon could be of assistance in part of the trip, I do not know.

It does appear that Lunar flyby's can be of assistance for some things such as changing orbital plain, and possibly for capturing asteroid materials to somewhere, I don't know about to geosynchronous orbit.

More to learn, but not just now.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-08-04 13:02:40)

Void · 2022-08-05 11:26:10

I am having attitude problems just now, but I finally thought of something more to be interested in.

A hybrid machine for propulsion in the Earth/Moon system. Cislunar space then I guess.

I am interested in a craft for that that would involve Electric Ion propulsion and Magnetic Bubble propulsion. They would likely not run at the same time, but would draw from the same power source alternately, I believe. I am thinking of Argon for the propellant, as we think it may be available from both the Earth, and we hope the Moon.

This somewhat old article tends to support Argon from the Moon, and even in the polar deposits. But not proven. https://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Argo … n_999.html
Quote:

There's no reason why argon shouldn't be at the poles, but there is reason to suggest that there could be more of it there than elsewhere. The polar regions are very cold, as NASA's Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter recently discovered. In fact, the poles could be the coldest places in our solar system!
Temperatures are so low that argon would be frozen solid. This could help these regions to retain more argon than the hotter regions of the Moon, because argon gas escaping from rocks over a long period could simply freeze in place. Admittedly, radioactive decay produces heat as well as trace gases, but the gas could percolate upwards from hot, underground areas and reach the colder surface.

Quote:

Ar-40 originates from the radioactive disintegration of Potassium-40 (K-40) present below the lunar surface. Once formed, it diffuses through the inter-granular space and makes its way up to the lunar exosphere through seepages and faults.

But perhaps there can be wells drilled to obtain it. Again we don't know yet.
https://telanganatoday.com/distribution … 40-on-moon

The Earth's magnetic field encompasses the Moon at times: https://sservi.nasa.gov/articles/full-m … teract.%29
Quote:

Full Moons Get Electrified by Earth’s Magnetic “Tail”
When the moon is full, it develops a strong electric field near the surface as it swings through Earth’s magnetic “tail,” according to new observations from a Japanese probe.
Earth’s magnetic field creates a protective bubble known as the magnetosphere, which surrounds the planet and shields us from solar wind—a rush of charged particles, or plasma, constantly streaming from the sun. (Related: “‘Warm Plasma Cloak’ Discovered Enveloping Earth.”)
As the solar wind pushes on Earth’s magnetic bubble, the planet’s magnetosphere stretches, forming what’s called the magnetotail. This tail reaches beyond the orbit of the moon, and it’s always pointed away from the sun. (See NASA illustrations of how the moon and the magnetotail interact.)
Meanwhile, we see a full moon when the lunar orb is on the opposite side of Earth from the sun—and therefore within the magnetotail.
Read the full article at news.nationalgeographic.com.

So, a craft in Cislunar space will sometimes be in the Sun's magnetism or the Earth's, and in some places in an area between, such as may be in the tail.

So, this is interesting: https://science.nasa.gov/science-news/s … st04oct_1/
Quote:

The Marshall scientists use a more down-to-Earth plasma source for their M2P2 experiments -- a helicon plasma generator, which ionizes gaseous argon and helium with high-power radio waves. "Helicons are fairly common," noted Gallagher. They are routinely used for fundamental plasma research and to etch commercial semiconductors.
Maintaining such a bubble in space would require about 1 kW of power and less than 1 kg per day of helium propellant for the plasma source. In return, the bubble would intercept about 600 kW of solar wind power.

If such a craft we going to pass near the Earth, I think the preference would be Solar power, otherwise perhaps Nuclear Fission.

The situation where this might accommodate humans would be for a cycler, which would offer extra life support and protection from radiation, especially in the Van Allen Belts. Calliban has suggested such a thing, I believe.

I believe that Dr. Zubrin has designed a machine with magnetic propulsion.

There are many proposals:
https://www.centauri-dreams.org/2007/05 … ic-fields/

This one can only propels away from the sun:
https://www.centauri-dreams.org/2017/12 … nd-beyond/
But if these things orbit the Earth, Earth/Moon, then some of the time it would work. I also think that it would work to modify such an orbit by producing drag, when orbiting towards the sun.

So, I suppose a cycler, might offer additional support for a craft traveling in Cislunar space. Ideally having a radiation shield that a Starship or other ship could hide behind, even possibly the ability to be shielded also from GCR, for part of a trip.

It might be able to take waste from a ship and recycle it so that it would have additional resources for the next arrival. Its propulsion and navigation would be used to maintain a useful orbit phased with an object orbiting the Earth. Geosynchronous platform, or the Moon itself.

Otherwise, though I think that the combination of the two methods of propulsion might work well as a robotic tug to slowly move materials from one location to another. For instance, from L1 or LEO to a Geosynchronous Platform, and of course to return to those locations.

I like this magnetic method, as I think it does not consume Argon??? https://www.centauri-dreams.org/2017/12 … nd-beyond/

Quote:

Suppose I told you that a device you could make yourself would be a more energy efficient space drive than an ion engine with a far better thrust to weight ratio? Fantasy? No!

Quote:

Unlike a classic magsail [9] (figure 1) that generates the magnetic field with a large diameter electrical circuit, the plasma magnet replaces the circular superconducting coil by inducing the current flow with the charged particles of the solar wind. It is an upgraded development of Robert Winglee’s Mini-Magnetospheric Plasma Propulsion (M2P2) [7, 8], a drive that required injection of charged particles to generate the magnetosphere. The plasma magnet requires no such injection of particles and is therefore potentially propellantless.

So, no Argon consumption for the magnetic drive, we hope.

That version mentioned above might travel to Mars in the flow of the solar wind, but it cannot then travel back.

But for a craft orbiting in Cislunar space, it could perhaps ram the solar wind at times, and I am very curious if it could ram the Earth's magnetic field to alter course?

That drive is slow in acceleration, and so are ion drives, but if you are moving cargo around that is not time sensitive, it might do quite well.
And it might be a very good way to move materials to Geosynchronous orbit from the Moons orbits, and from LEO. Perhaps tanks of water and also perhaps tanks of CO2, or just Carbon. None of those have very high problems for boiloff, so, move those and then cook up propellants where desired and convenient.

In the case of a Geosynchronous power platform, you could cook up a batch, when there is less demand for power to be sent to Earth.

And as I have indicated previously at any time when the Magnetic Propulsion will not serve, then switch to Ion Drive.

I suppose there could be a case to add aerobraking, but maybe not as that could lead to crashes where debris hits the surface of the Earth.
But maybe...........?

I do wonder about magnetic braking, passing though the Earth's magnetic field.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-08-05 12:21:37)

Void · 2022-08-05 19:07:22

My thinking on this in the previous post is that to bring water up to LEO and beyond, or CO2 or Carbon, may reduce the potentials for explosion, and the magnitude of any explosions that may occur.

These substances can be contained on platforms, and then only the amount of propellant needed at a certain time would be dangerous, and
of course, if you keep Oxygen and propellants sufficiently apart in that situation you should greatly reduce explosive hazards as well.

Elon Musk wants a Starship 2.0 which I believe may be about 8 times the volume? Well even at sea, if you are bringing materials for propellants up to orbits, it is probably better if they are not explosive, but that they may even dampen an explosion.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-08-05 19:08:37)

Void · 2022-08-06 09:25:16

I have been thinking this through. I think that these may be possible participants in a portion of a reality.

Expert
Contender
Puzzler
Observer
Oblivious.

I consider myself to be a Puzzler.

And so, the things I think I see interest me, but I don't feel I understand all that well, but at least I am interested in trying.

And no Yoda, there is a try, many of them.

I am interested at this time in platforms, at suggested locations. Geosynchronous seems worth consideration, but I am also considering the 1/2 and 1/4 value of altitude for a circular orbit. And elliptical cyclers that can connect to them.

This could change with nuclear rockets, but I don't know. For now I am going to presume Hydro lox and Metha lox propellants, at least to lift materials off of worlds, and to more quickly transport people from on base to another. A base may be on a world, or in orbit of a world.

Previously I suggested a ship with electric ion propulsion and Magnetic bubble propulsion in the solar wind. However, within the Earth's magnetic field the magnetic method may not be that productive. I wonder tethers, electrodynamic as a partner in such situations.

The goal may be to use such to move propellant materials such as Water, Carbon, CO2, and Argon, efficiently from base to base.

Another possible inclusion(s) could be tethers as momentum exchange and mass drivers. I do not rule them out.

I am already fairly sold on a Geosynchronous platform, and possibly a platform in a Lunar "L" location. I am wondering about the value of 1/2 and 1/4 geosynchronous orbits. It is almost certain that there will be some facilities in LEO.

I wonder for those platforms about sending power to the ground and alternately using power in orbits, and refilling chemical and ion ships in each stage of platform.

I also consider the notion of tugs to assist ships, those tugs then refilled at platforms.

Of course the advantage desired is that a chemical ship does not have to carry all of the propellants from its starting point to it's destination.

SpaceX and others already are in consideration of such a thing where they plan to refill in LEO.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-08-06 09:38:36)

Void · 2022-08-06 15:13:05

So, the Angry Astronaut has put out a video, suggesting that Blue Origin, per New Glen, is showing signs of progress after all. Not prime time yet but some progress. The most interesting things are it is 45 Tons to LEO, as it is not stainless steel, and its upper stage is Hydro Lox propulsion, I believe.

I do still understand and appreciate the SuperHeavy/Starship of SpaceX, as I understand that they want to refill it as Metha Lox on Mars as well as on Earth.

He also pointed out that the New Glen would not need as large an exclusion zone as Starship 1.0 or 2.0. Probably true. Is this to be a binary contest like a football game? Well really, I don't think so. Rather the two can fit together, I feel.

If it is possible to work with platforms as my recent posts have speculated on, then there is no reason why a Hydro Lox orbital 1st Stage cannot be put onto a Starships back end and then to boost it with Hydro Lox, reducing the amount of Metha Lox, to achieve a purpose.

And in my view whoever can best produce water to these platforms is going to be of importance. There are several possible options, I do not wish to bother the listing at this time. There could be several platforms accessed in a serial fashion, so the Hydro Lox boosters might not be that big. Or maybe just one. Options open for considerations.

I do not specify how many people will live on these platforms. That is to be influenced by a very large number of factors.

But except for the LEO locations, it seems that a lot of hard and deadly radiation has to be handled for biological creatures, and perhaps even robots.

So, the conditions on these platforms will not be identical to rockets with humans that may make sudden changes in inertia.

Some of the best protections would be Liquid Hydrogen, Liquid Methane, and Water. If you are not making sudden changes in inertia, then you may afford insulation and active cooling mass on these platforms.

However, although you might afford to use any of these and also LOX and CO2, Carbon as radiation blockers, you can use water for farming as well, until you convert it into propellants.

What I have in mind is a cylinder with a coil(s) of transparent plastic tube of significant size that would be within the cylinder(s). And then a light source or a chemical source to stimulate organic growth.

This then being potentially agricultural in nature, could also leave a protective hollow in which human habitations might be placed. Some of these may have synthetic gravity.

Hydrilla does not like a lot of salt in its water, and Hydrilla is my model here, so probably fresh water, which is less corrosive to machines.

And I am also wondering if Hydrilla will grow in high humidity air in zero gee.

If that were true and you took the bulk of the water to make propellants from time to time, then even so the radiation protection for humans would be reduced, but the agricultural output may still continue.

So, depending on the amount of shielding water, you would have more or less protected space for humans and their machines.

I have speculated that these platforms especially in geosynchronous orbit, may have surplus electrical energy available on the platform, at times when the surface of Earth has sufficiently powered itself with local solar and wind.

This could be seasonal as a large part, but with wind or cloud cover variations it may fluctuate more quickly in time.

I have focused on Hydrilla as a crop, but there may be other suitable things.

This could produce Oxygen as a propellant, and also it might be processed for fuels.

These substances could be stored in fuel tanks to also offer some radiation protections.

So, that is a fair amount to work on.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-08-06 15:44:05)

Void · 2022-08-07 10:37:06

People who live in harsh conditions such as cold may use "Layering" to better adapt to those conditions.

This post is a continuation of recent materials. I have been thinking about agriculture and habitation of orbital solar platforms, and in particular one that may be in geosynchronous orbit or Earth or another world.

As I just returned home from breakfast, I thought of an outer layer that may be of use.

My current awareness of prior concepts for solar power platforms that will beam microwaves down to Earth is either a flat plane of solar panels, or mirrors that will focus concentrated solar energy on boilers of some fluid.

I want to think of something else, where solar panels are arranged in a tubular array, with some facing the sun directly and some facing the universe. However, to get light to all of the solar panel's mirrors will be used, those more or less on the sides of the tubular structure.

If I get a chance, I will provide illustrations.

If the only purpose put to the mass of the solar cells was to collect energy, then this would seem not worthwhile, but I intend to use the mass cage of solar panels to provide a buffered environment inside of that cage.

This cage is not intended to be airtight but will be protection from impactors for items within the cage. Of course, only for small impactors, the definition of small of course can be debated in this case.

Inside the cage thermal conditions will also be buffered, reducing the rigors an EVA suit must endure, and also buffering the environment thermally for other items within the cage.

Another function of the cage would be to retain shed parts, like tools, nuts, bolts, and indeed humans in EVA suits. So, although not airtight, it needs to be "Part Tight".

So, then this could function as a garage of sorts for spacecraft, just perhaps, and humans working within with EVA suits, might be umbilical attached to a large life support pod, which would travel with them.

While it may be possible to modify this so that sunlight could get inside, to shine on gardens, for now I want to consider gardening under LED's inside of pressurized containers. As I have speculated before, it may be that there will be times where all the power harnessed by this device, will not need to be sent to Earth, and some types of agriculture will tolerate more or less light, for certain time periods.

So, we have a buffered environment, now we can put a line of pressurized cylinders within the cage. Filled with breathable gasses, it might be preferred, usually. This line of cylinders would not rotate.

I think that the next major concerns are solar storms, and then GCR. Both of these may respond to water walls, and those water walls would also support certain types of agriculture, most likely aquatic.

To visualize this, consider a linear bacterium. We might be designing a robotic space bacterium.
https://www.biologydiscussion.com/bacte … gram/49624
Well, this picture quote may show examples that may be somewhat similar to what we would create per shape: https://www.biologydiscussion.com/wp-co … mb-213.jpg

Perhaps the "Sheathed" bacteria, only with less curve or wiggle in form. More like a staph.

So, we have a pressurized stator string of cylinders, now we can put some water related radiation protection in them. One simple solution is transparent bags of water, LEDs to shine on them to promote some type of aquiculture. Certainly, there are other ways to contain water in microgravity with some part of the chambers being transparent. We of course don't want big blobs of water to engulf humans as in the Sci-Fi movie "Passengers" so we choose to control the water in microgravity with containments.

The next thing we might want is low level microgravity. This could be done with rotating cylinders each with a counter-rotation partner.
Low level is not defined well yet, but let's consider the gravitation of Ceres.

And then we might want some major gravity wheels, which would have to be put in vacuum chambers within the pressurized cylinder.

Major signifies gravitation simulation which is sufficient to promote good human health.

To build these as power sources for the Earth may pay the way to bring the technologies into existence, but eventually platforms like this could become spaceships, cycling or otherwise strong enough to bring human habitations to worlds we cannot yet think to reach. For the outer solar system though Nuclear may be an addition desired.

A further addition would be tethers, both up from the "Cell" and down from the "Cell". These can be propulsive in magnetic fields, and could also impart momentum to ships, maybe even capture ships from another orbital energy situation. They might also help the keep the "Cell" oriented correctly to the sun.

Done

Cigar shaped UFS"s Well I don't think the aliens think I am much of anything, should they exist in realty and not in my minds realty.

No, I don't think we are going to dip the "Beak" of a cigar into an atmosphere anytime soon, to fill propellants, but maybe in a thousand years?????????????????

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-08-07 11:35:36)

Void · 2022-08-08 06:12:51

I stand ready to be corrected on these things. I am trying to figure it out.

Keep in mind that this idea of a "Balloon" of solar panels just occurred to me yesterday, and it may be a way to go but does not have to be the way.

Anyway, I have discovered that satellites at least in some cases orientate themselves magnetically in the Earth's magnetic field. It is my understanding that geosynchronous orbit is typically inside the Earth's magnetic field under the circumstances currently existing.

Well, I am not ready to do such a deep dive as this, yet: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/196 … 020961.pdf

This might be a bit milder: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetorq … 20Contents
Quote:

Magnetorquer
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigationJump to search
A magnetorquer or magnetic torquer (also known as a torque rod) is a satellite system for attitude control, detumbling, and stabilization built from electromagnetic coils. The magnetorquer creates a magnetic dipole that interfaces with an ambient magnetic field, usually Earth's, so that the counter-forces produced provide useful torque.

Well, that approximately covers how to control some part of an orbital object's orientation.

The other possibilities are tethers up and down from the main mass, gyroscopic methods, which maybe spin gravity devices might be involved in, and of course thrusters. It is desirable to use thrusters the least I suppose.

Anyway, in the notion I have suggested of an envelope of solar panels, some means to orient mirrors to face the sun as the assembly orbits the Earth, is needed. I can think that that would be possible using bearings and motors, or the orienting methods that I just mentioned above.

The mirrors would likely be very light weight.

A Kesler Syndrome perhaps is less probable in Geosynchronous orbit than for LEO. Even so, if providing an enveloping cage of solar panels may help to reduce the problem of parts floating away. And then "The Gateway Foundation" has notions of handling shed parts as well.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=th … &FORM=VIRE

And I expect that over time orbital methods to clean things up will emerge.

One other feature of such a cage, would be thermal stability, except that it may be too hot. It would be possible to put screen "Windows" here and there to allow heat out, and then it might be necessary to have external radiators. I have been exploring what advantages a cage may have, but there may be problems to solve as well such as the thermal problem.

But in that case, you might generate additional electricity other than the solar panels using some kind of boiling fluid.

If it turns out an enveloping cage is more trouble than it is worth, then it can be partially or totally avoided. The other features may still be good. I like the idea of a stationary pressurized cylinder with synthetic gravity devices within, and water as agriculture and radiation protection.

As for Mars, the question of orientation without a global magnetic field. Some people think that a space station could be put inside one of the moons of Mars. Deimos has been mentioned. I think that if the water method works, for radiation shielding, then a method as I have previously mentioned could be anchored by tether to one of the Moons. Phobos, the near side, gets secondary radiation from Mars itself, but that is just a thing to be aware of and perhaps to avoid. The major question would be if water could be obtained in the quantities needed.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-08-08 06:42:16)

Void · 2022-08-08 06:39:01

The question of water. I recently read that the Hydrogen part of water accounts for 11.11 % of the mass of water.

We do have the possibility of getting water from our Moon, and around Mars it is considered possible that Phobos and Deimos would have water. However, access to any such water sources will be an expense, and practicality may impose barriers.

Some people feel that they would be able to mine asteroids for water robotically. Well maybe?

Some entities are contemplating refilling propellants in orbit. SpaceX is one of them. In their case I believe that they contemplate bringing Methane and Oxygen to orbit for that purpose, using tankers. It is possible that some others will work with Hydro Lox.

I have been thinking about bringing water to orbit, and then using it to create propellants. Carbon and CO2 could also be included but might not need to be.

Water would be a safer substance to transport and will be better behaved in orbit per thermal issues, boil off.

However, if alternate sources of Oxygen can be obtained in the space environment, then it may make sense to bring just Hydrogen to orbit, as it is supposedly only 11.11% of the mass of water. If you had that alternate source of Oxygen, then you might run rockets with it immediately, or you might burn the chemicals to produce water, perhaps in fuel cells. Then the water to be used as "Water" for various purposes and stored as a possible future source of propellants at a later time.

Presuming that Moon water is hard to get to LEO, then a possible alternative other than lifting water from Earth to LEO, would be to scoop it from the Earth's upper atmosphere. This would very likely involve tethers, and likely electrodynamic in nature.
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio … t%20system.

If you had a two-part tether, I expect the lower segment could be electrified so as to lift atmospheric molecules upward to higher orbit. At some point the molecules have to then be captured and contained by some method. Above that section would need to be a tether that
lifts the whole assembly by pushing molecules down. This would certainly be tricky with all the space junk in existence.

So, there would be a stream of molecules traveling up the bottom segment and down the top segment, and a collection method at that junction. The molecules would likely include Nitrogen, Oxygen, and Argon? Not really sure about the upper atmosphere. But the atmosphere extends to the Moon and beyond technically.

Collection methods are going to be tricky. Could you condense a film of molecules on a capacitor plate, using electrostatic charge?
Could you then create a compressor using a Piso electric device? Can you then nullify the ionization of the molecules? If you add Hydrogen molecules, can you create water?

Well, tricky business.

--------

What about Lunar materials?

Of course, if you could get water, you could lift it to orbits with rocket methods.

Some people have suggested Mass Drivers, pushing stuff to a Lunar "L" location. Historically I recall it being bags of Lunar regolith. A very nice starter idea. But I am interested in some modifications.

If Mass Drivers were to be used, perhaps it would be possible to create propelled objects from Lunar materials. That is if you calculate a beneficiated ore extracted from raw Lunar materials, it may largely be composed of a mix that you prefer to build things out of in orbital locations. You might include water into the materials as bound to the minerals, and you might also include magnetic grains into the objects, and they might be sized such that they would be optimal for the Mass Driver launcher.

This might carry with it the problem of creating impactors in the orbits that human space devices dwell in. However, perhaps it would be more manageable than bags of dirt and rocks. And you might have reduced the quantity of substances to close to what you need in orbits, and so leave the tailings behind on the Moon. But that means processing materials on the Moon prior to sending it to orbits with a Mass Driver.

So, nothing is free of burden, you would just have to choose your problems to be involved in.

For Mars, it may be likely that we can get our water to orbit more easily.

Even if Phobos and Deimos do not have water in them, then you could lift Hydrogen to orbit and then extract Oxygen from the materials of the moons, and then in that process perhaps also reduce the materials to a state better, from our point of view, perhaps extracting metals with some type of process.

The Brits/Europeans have a process to get Oxygen and metals perhaps from Lunar regolith. Perhaps it would work for this.

Presuming the moons have no accessible ice, then lift liquid Hydrogen to orbit, in a .38 g field, and understanding that you would be perhaps lifting just 11.11% of the mass of the water you intend to obtain using Oxygen from these moons.

I have mentioned this on several occasions: https://www.space.com/esa-oxygen-from-l … ation.html

At least Deimos may have Carbon in its makeup.

And if you needed Nitrogen, then Mars has some.

So, then what I tend to call "Near Mars" may have some advantages. A lot of materials could be delivered to its orbits by various means from the Earth/Moon, and it seems likely that with the correct infrastructure build up, then much could be built in orbits of Mars from Mars itself, things delivered from elsewhere, and the two moons of Mars.

So, that is quite a lot.

I prefer to avoid spinning radiation shielding and indeed much of the heavy air pressure containing pressure shells. I would rather tend to only spin low spin devices for the most part, but also perhaps high spin devices that would be like cities, those would need to be in vacuum chambers. I tend to like the vacuum chambers to be inside of pressurized containments, as an air leak is less likely to be deadly, provided you used good common sense in the proportions of vacuum to pressurized volume.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-08-08 07:32:13)

Void · 2022-08-08 09:13:33

It is my impression that while people will entertain the notion of synthetic gravity worlds, around Earth and in the Asteroid belt. But they are so caught up in the notion of a habitation on the surface of Mars, that they neglect the notion of such around Mars, even though Mars is a world with some similarities to Earth and has two moons that resemble asteroids.

I have been trying to solve for methods that will be more productive economically while reducing the necessary input magnitudes. If done similar to what I suggest, these will be odd situations for humans but perhaps tolerable. And then if the societies associated, do in fact accumulate enough wealth, they may build some more expensive synthetic worlds that are a truer simulation of Earth. If they can afford it.

But I think it is true that one thing that might be done for Mars is to get it more energy, as it is further from the sun than Earth. So, the orbits of Mars have some of that desired energy in the form of solar energy. A good tool then for Terraforming Mars.

And of course, possibly a part of the Earth's future energy resources as well.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-08-08 09:17:54)

Void · 2022-08-08 11:49:06

So, then perhaps it will be proved that I do not know what is practical for recovering atmospheric molecules to a concentrating device in Earth, Mars, or Venus orbit.

But I consider it worth looking at. This seems interesting: https://www.universetoday.com/85322/wha … 20velocity. Quote:

This layer is mainly composed of extremely low densities of hydrogen, helium and several heavier molecules including nitrogen, oxygen and carbon dioxide (which are closer to the exobase). In order to maintain a Low-Earth Orbit, an object must have a sufficient orbital velocity.

Image Quote: https://www.universetoday.com/wp-conten … 80x438.jpg

Of the Terrestrial planets, Mars seems the best for recovering atmospheric molecules to orbit.

Its gravity field is low, and it also has the momentum of Phobos to harness.

The tether to dip into the atmosphere just a bit, however, will be very long.

Here is an article: https://marspedia.org/Space_elevator

However, I am not so enthusiastic about pulling materials off of the surface of Mars. I consider it a lesser task if an electric current could cause molecules to march up the tether, and to a concentrator method on Phobos. I don't know if this is possible, but I have previously suggested that ions coming up the tether, might spill onto a capacitor like surface where if may collect as a film, and then I would try to use a piezoelectric pump to further compress it. It might need some change of electrical charge to normalize it, if not being an ion is considered normal.

But I don't know it would work.

The Martian atmosphere being in a lesser gravity field, I would expect that it could have significant density at a higher altitude than for the Earth. Although atmosphere would be lifted Phobos has plenty of momentum stored to do this for quite some time, I would expect, if it is a thing that can work.

And then as I have said, for the Earth we might try a double electrodynamic tether. The lower half pulls up molecules and reduces the orbital energy of the tether, but the upper portion probably being much longer, pulls down molecules and so then may increase the orbital energy of the tether.

But I have to confess, I have my concerns about space junk for LEO of Earth, and possibly asteroid materials for Mars.

But perhaps people better than me and more expert can better evaluate the practicality of these things.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-08-08 12:03:06)

Void · 2022-08-09 07:43:50

Well, I am still thinking about orbits of Earth, but my thoughts wandered into this, this morning: https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists … etic-field

I have been wondering if a string of clusters of habitation and energy collecting devices could be in the orbit of Phobos, or perhaps inside of it? If inside of it, then perhaps some radiation protection from the magnetic field? I wonder if they could be compatible with the dust ring.

Even though these solar habitation orbital assemblies would not be in geosynchronous orbit, perhaps there could be a ring of ground stations on the surface of Mars that could receive power from them.

Not being in Geosynchronous orbit, has the advantage of having a shorter distance to lift materials up from Mars, and of course Phobos being in association donates materials as well.

For Earth, a temptation to build below geosynchronous might also exist, but I think it is more likely that water will come from the Moon than the Earth, and eventually from asteroids. It might be similar also that materials from the Moon could be brought to geosynchronous.

I am in the mind that some materials from the Moon might arrive to orbit with a mass driver system, and some by chemical rocket. For now, I do not include tethers. But if the Moon has Argon, and if humans can build magnetic bubble craft, then after materials have been moved to a lunar orbit, a hybrid craft would be good for moving some of them to geosynchronous orbits.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-08-09 07:51:07)

Void · 2022-08-09 09:18:52

So, in the previous post where I mentioned a ship that uses Argon and Magnetic bubble propulsions, I did intend that it would include electric rockets. Both electric and magnetic bubble propulsions need electric power, and so I typically first think solar power but for this do not rule out nuclear electric power. In this case the ships are not expected to approach Earth closer than geosynchronous orbit, and so Nuclear might be tolerated.

As for Lunar materials in orbits, which these machines might transfer to geosynchronous, I have been thinking on that. It does seem to me that if the Moon has Argon obtainable, then it cannot likely be transferred in a Mass Driver. Maybe by chemical rocket, maybe by tether?

For non-noble materials, I have a notion to propose that would involve some beneficiation of materials on the Moon's surface and then projectiles to be shot out of a Mass Driver.

The old notion from the 70's I believe was a bag made from basalt fibers, sort of, that would contain Lunar regolith, to be shot to an "L" location, where it might reduce speed in the Moons gravity by arriving at the final destination. It was to be partially fine-tuned in travel by electron beams shot at it. That is what I remember.

When I worked in a Taconite processing facility, we made little ceramic pellets for the blast furnaces. Their size and shape and the increased content of iron in them made them worth the trouble. Much non-iron materials were rejected from the raw ore.

So, in a similar manner I suggest making "Bullets", "Cannonballs" of Lunar materials, where they have some magnetic content, and thus likely iron, but maybe Aluminum for inductive magnetism, and then also have a proportion of materials suitable to transfer to orbital locations to build things with.

So, these manufactured projectiles may contain various substances. Two that I am interested in are magnetic iron and Hydrogen.

Hydrogen can be bound to minerals and Oxygen. The magnetic Iron may be separable from the Lunar regolith by magnetic separation, something we used in processing Taconite. (But that was a wet process).

So, this may be a sort of "Brick" shaped like a projectile, with magnetic iron objects within it. A tall order to make a brick and not oxidize the iron in a way that does not destroy its magnetism. Aluminum metal within may also be useful for magnetism, if a induced magnetic field can be created.

So, then, if possible, these projectiles will have internal magnetic elements to help shoot them out of a Mass Driver.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_Driver_1
Quote:

As originally envisioned, the mass driver was intended to launch payloads from a lunar base to L5, the fifth Lagrange point in which a stable orbit can be maintained. This is where Gerard K. O'Neill proposed building a space colony (of the five Lagrange points, only L4 and L5 are truly stable, both for the real physical Earth/Moon system as well as for the ideal restricted 3-body case).

As the projectiles may not need a bucket, that is a change.

As I recall, the bags of regolith were to slow down in the Moon's gravity well and arrive at a centrifugal colleting bucket in the "L5" location.

As I have modified, this I suggest that the bucket also have a very strong magnetic field. If the materials of the projectiles are containing little "Rasins" of magnetic metals, this may help in the collection.

Iron Filings in a magnetic field (Images): https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Ir … HoverTitle

So, such a material situation makes a sort of sponge, which may serve as a shock absorber. I do expect to also use the centrifugal force.

In addition, the projectiles may have some ability to shatter, if necessary, upon impact, and this may be helpful, but we would want all of the pieces to be gripped by magnetism and centrifugal force.

The collection bucket spins on its axis, and so the hope is that objects entering at some few hundreds? of mile per hour can be captured. Magnetic parts inside the projectile may assist in this, if we have a significant magnetic field also coupled to the collection bucket.

As I have said, I think that it may be possible to include Hydrogen into these projectiles, to produce water later. But for Argon, I am not sure that can be included. That may need chemical rockets or tanks that can be lifted up by tethers. I do not so much trust tethers that would have to be that long, because of impactors in orbits.

The creation of the projectiles would be work, but then if you could come up with a content of them which is approximately ideal for building the things in orbit that humans may want to build, it might be worth it.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-08-09 09:58:06)

Void · 2022-08-09 11:25:35

OK, for primary propulsion "L5", Geosynchronous, I think a ship with an electric rocket, and a magnetosphere.

Some of these need to be inflated with gasses such as Argon and/or Helium: https://science.nasa.gov/science-news/s … st04oct_1/

This one apparently does not need ionized gasses added, it gets some from the solar wind: https://www.centauri-dreams.org/2017/12 … nd-beyond/

The second one cannot tack into the solar wind, but if operating within Cislunar space, my impression is that sometimes the solar wind passes the Earth and goes to the Moon, and sometimes it passes the Moon and goes to the Earth.

Sometimes the Moon is in the Earth's magnetic field, but mostly not so.

I believe that Dr. Zubrin knows how to navigate in all types of magnetic fields, including the Earth's, so perhaps his vision would be the one to go with.

Well, here is something of his: https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2018/05/r … drive.html

It would take me some time to comprehend better. Maybe later.

The point is you could have some kind of drive that may operate well outside of the Earth's magnetic field, and then electric rocket propulsion for when that may serve. This then could power robotic tugs, that would move bulk materials from "L5" to another location. In my case, I am interested in building massive orbital power stations, probably in geosynchronous orbit, and I feel that these could host a lot of robots, perhaps like the Tesla Bot, and even some humans.

If fact if the methods of colleting materials to these power stations was effective financially as per the productivity of activities of these platforms, then they might some long time from now become large population centers. Make sure you understand that this is not a "Moon before Mars" obsession. I would choose to go with the flow, as long as it also includes Mars as a very major factor.

You also understand that I want to do very similar for the Martian orbital environments.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-08-09 11:37:01)

Void · 2022-08-11 11:01:17

Well, I have lacked enthusiasm to produce my own "Stuff".

But I ran into this today, and it caused be to try to think: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Mo … ORM%3DVDRE

So, anyway I am thinking productivity and Aeroponics in lower gravitational fields. I am also thinking that it may be a benefit that these potatoes may need less wash water to make the suitable for food.

What I am thinking is that reduced gravity would allow the suspension of bigger potatoes, and also may reduce the rate of runoff of the watering fluid. Of course, this would possibly be true on Mars, but I am also thinking of orbital stations with synthetic gravity.

I have previously stated the notion of Aquiculture in bags in Microgravity, as both agriculture and radiation shielding. I then further suggest a "Rotor" inside of the aquiculture "Stator", of a very low 'g' to grow crops this way.

And then perhaps inside of that a vacuum chamber with limited volume where higher 'g" forces can exist. Possibly a Wheel type synthetic gravity machine to be inside the vacuum chamber. So then layers nested inside of each other, giving radiation protection.

My feeling is that it could be true that humans only have to be in a high gravity field part of the day. Not so much when sleeping, not so much when sitting. So, in fact how much time does a modern human spend standing, walking, running, working out?

So, then the low 'g' rotors might be a place where a person could spend ~4 hours in a day, (Totally guessing), and the high 'g' rotor in a vacuum tube, probably portioned out by evaluating muscle mass and bone density.

Of course, I cannot speak to the eyes, if that would be safe. But it might work OK.

The point is to get productivity, with the least amount of expense. The high 'g' rotor might be rather small per population, particularly if it turns out that people can have their bedrooms in a lower 'g' situation and still be healthy.

It is a thing to discover.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-08-11 11:16:55)

Void · 2022-08-11 12:18:31

So, this is in support of the just prior post:

At this time I see something like this being in LEO, or Geosynchronous, or some orbit of the Moon. "L5" or Lunar Gateway. (Sorry Gateway haters ).

The device would be connected to other mass perhaps, and the rotors red can be many that travel in different directions. So, then I hope to avoid Gyroscopic tumbling of the whole mass.

Aquaculture in water bags (Blue), may have planting and harvesting in place, or the water bags could be moved to a low 'g' rotor for those activities including patching.

I suppose a large-scale water leak may present problems so methods to handle such will be needed.

The rotor in vacuum will be primarily for human health, and it is unknown how much time and activity are necessary for adult health, or possibly someday child health.

In the beginning I only expect competent human adults to be present.

The red rotors may also be sites for aeroponics, and perhaps some dwelling activities such as bedrooms, and other things, I suppose.

The quality of the micro-gravity in places might be suitable for industrial micro-gravity activities, but such activities might need to be sheltered from vibrations, and air currents.

I guess that is some sort of notion(s) to think on.

I still think that Cislunar space above and including geosynchronous, orbit, might do well with a combination of magnetic bubble drive, and Argon Ion Drive. Primarily to move freight, including materials which propellants can be made from.

We can hope that some effective way to lift materials from the Moon can come into existence, and that materials from Asteroids can be an input as well.

To get sensitive materials though the Van Allen Belts, perhaps a cycling shield that has an elliptical orbit. A ship could simply go inside of it like a garage, possibly LEO<>Geosynchronous orbit.

Just some notions.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-08-11 12:38:24)

Void · 2022-08-11 19:20:53

Well, this is an interesting video about powersats. I am an old guy so I am not strongly comfortable about some of the more advanced materials.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Is … M%3DHDRSC3

I do think that at the beginning things like what I suggested for humans and agriculture in the previous post would start with professionals, and would be kept as low budget as possible, but eventually if it works out, I suggest a very substantial amount of people in Geosynchronous orbit for both Earth and Mars, and well maybe other planets as well.

For either planet, I would not think the idea of a total dependance on orbital solar makes sense, so it would just be a part of an energy scheme. Under that notion then there would be times when there would be a surplus of energy at the powersat, and it would be good to have a local energy consumer (Load) at that location.

But it is getting late.

While I have currently suggested solar panels in orbit, I do think that mirrors and boilers are also an option to explore.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-08-11 19:25:12)

Void · 2022-08-12 13:06:32

Something I have been pondering are the underground cities of Cappadocia. They may suggest methods for Mars.

Query: "underground cities of Cappadocia"

Images: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=un … HoverTitle

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=undergrou … 0ae3a751cb

So, it seems that these were built by hand as the rock was from a volcanic ash.

Query: "Sediments on Mars"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Sediments … baf4068842

This is actually a negative for the subsurface of Insight: https://scitechdaily.com/surprise-surpr … ectations/
Of course, they also overstated that all the water is at the poles as we know that much is at least as far down as the mid-latitudes.

The rift valley has apparent sediments of significance: https://mars.nasa.gov/resources/26702/l … marineris/

And I am especially interested in what is under ice sheets both at the mid-latitudes, and in the Marriner Rift Valley.

So, I guess the point I am making is in some places of Mars it is likely that the subsurface will be ideal for cities like in Cappadocia, but of course modified to the conditions of Mars.

Some do think that we can make structures involving ice as an ingredient. Members here are considering Cast Iron for structures, so I don't think that pressurized volume is going to be as much of a problem as it might be feared.

Now I am going to veer into another direction with this. I feel that our side has chosen a poor strategy, in promoting for Mars.

Changed my mind I will mention the types that say that Mars cannot be terraformed, and also the types who say that Mars is worse than Mt. Everest.

I think you know the types, some are verbal mimics, and some are siphons, perhaps even succubus and incubus.

These are not pioneer types; they rather seek favor in the lap of established powers and hope to have a magic wand waved to appoint and anoint them privilege. Maybe not J.B. He seems to have a real spark.

Since he does have some legitimacy, I will do him first. The notion that Mars is like Mt. Everest only worse is of course both accurate and wrong at the same time. Mars has much more potential than Mt. Everest, but it cannot be denied that it is a real hard case to survive on at least at first.

It is true that in orbit of the Earth/Moon, the solar conditions are stronger? Is that correct? Well in the orbits of Mars, it is only cold that is a big problem you are not in danger of boiling in the sun. (Radiation not yet considered).

So here is a hint: https://www.answers.com/astronomy/What_ … _of_Phobos
Quote:

Temperature â 233 K is known as Phobos temperature.
The temperatures of Phobos, one of the moons of Mars,range from about −4 °C (25 °F) to −112 °C (−170 °F), on the sunlit and shadowed sides respectively.

Compare that then to the Moon: https://nineplanets.org/questions/what- … the%20dark.
Quote:

While the moon is smaller than the Earth, the core temperature of the moon does not get hot enough to warm the other layers that compose it.
The temperature of the moon ranges from extremely hot (127 Celsius) to extremely cold (-272 Celsius). Its temperature depends on whether you measure the temperature in the sun or the temperature in the dark.

So, in dealing with orbital Mars, (Phobos, Deimos), you are mostly dealing with cold and not that hot. That sounds miserable but in orbits, mirrors will help you out quite a lot to bring up levels that are comfortable.

So, I choose to regard Mars as a mining planet, at least at the start, and probably a rich mining economy. Terraforming might be implemented, but even more likely Para Terraforming.

The old Red Mars, Green Mars, Blue Mars, notion is unwise in my thinking as it gives the enemy too much latitude to snipe at our intentions.

Remember they would much more like the minions to serve them from far below and worship them.

That was not what our ancestors settled for if they had a choice, and we do have a choice.

Just remember, some form of orbital settlement technology, may work for many or most of the worlds in our solar system, eventually.
It is going to be worth it.

Done

Last edited by Void (2022-08-12 13:50:48)

Void · 2022-08-12 18:38:10

There are lots of possibilities. I have recently been on about LED's and Solar Panels, but of course there are various types of boiler/turbine/Generator concepts. And of course, Nuclear, if it is better, which it may be in the outer solar system.

Gardens can be under LEDs, or light through windows.

But the part I like the most is that most of them can be joined on a common Chassie, and in many cases space suits will not be needed to travel from one part to another. In far imagining, such a thing could actually circle Mars eventually.

But you will notice that I am very willing to also support living on the surface of Mars as well.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-08-12 18:40:46)

Void · 2022-08-13 08:55:17

Today, I am thinking about a reversal of greenhouse/habitats as a load, per LEDs, and am wondering about greenhouses, but less likely habitats as electricity producing devices, along with growing plants.

But I have other things to do today, so I will keep this short.

I took a look at plants that can grow under 24-hour sunlight. It seems Beets qualify, and wild tomatoes but not normal domesticated tomatoes. But the Dutch apparently have put the wild trait into a new strain of domestic tomatoes. There are many other plants that also can grow under continuous light, but those families have science names. So more to seek to understand.

But, if it were done to turn a greenhouse into a power plant in orbit, then not having to turn the lights off and so choke the power production seems like an attribute to seek.

OTEC uses a far smaller thermal difference, and yet might be marginally acceptable. But in space let's say 70-100 deg F, (Sorry, short on time) Say room temperature to somewhat uncomfortably hot, then contrasted with the cold of the universe might work.

But in fact, if you could take the greenhouse heat as a preheat, and then heat that to more with a solar concentrator, I think there could be possibilities of utility.

I have a tendency to not trust windows to space, where populations may have their means of shelter, but maybe in time this will prove an unneeded precaution. But these solar generators might also be connected to habitation sections in such a method(s) that you would not normally need a spacesuit to cross between them.

Query: "Scientists develop a tomato plant that can grow all night"

Specific response: https://www.latimes.com/science/science … story.html
Quote:

Scientists are not sure how widespread continuous light tolerance is throughout the plant world. Pepper plants, rose bushes and lettuces are all perfectly happy when the lights never go off, but as botanists first discovered nearly 100 years ago, tomato plants are different.

Query: "plants that can grow in continuous light" (I sometimes cannot pull up the same articles on my computer that I find on my phone)

A response: https://www.researchgate.net/post/What- … tant-light
Quote:

Most plant species will grow fine under continuous light, although some (e.g. tomato) cannot. If the species is photoperiodic, flowering will obviously be affected. Not sure if it matters whether the plant are in vitro or in vivo.

In particular I am interested in Beets. I found on my phone that they are OK in continuous 24 hour sunlight, but not yet on my computer, "Bing".

More Info: https://homeguides.sfgate.com/24hour-li … 95954.html
Quote:

While some plants need a certain amount of darkness to bloom, others crave light. Exposure to 24-hour light helps some plants like orchids (Orchidaceae spp.) and cacti (Cactaceae spp.) bloom more quickly than they normally would if grown outdoors. Orchid varieties, depending on species, grow outdoors in USDA zones 1 through 11 while cacti, also depending on species, are perennial in USDA zones 5 through 13. Many houseplants and bedding plants also do well in 24-hour lighting, including coleus (Coleus hybridus), Swiss cheese plant (Monstera deliciosa) and dieffenbachia (Dieffenbachia spp.). The Swiss cheese plant and dieffenbachia both are perennials in USDA zones 10 through 12, while coleus is grown indoors or as an annual.
A Word on Intensity
When experimenting with or altering the amount of light your indoor plants receive, remember that the intensity of the light can be as important as the amount. Some plants require bright, intense light while others require low or indirect light. A plant that looks dull and has smaller leaves than it should is not getting enough light. Try increasing the intensity of the light the plant receives or start providing light 24 hours a day. Plants that receive too much light turn yellow in color and may eventually be covered in patches of dead, burnt tissue. Help these plants by moving the light source further away, reducing the intensity of the light they receive, or by providing longer periods of darkness.

So, it appears that many plants can be accommodated with 24/7 light, but some may need genetic alterations either through cross breeding or GM.

Elon Musk it credited in saying that "The best part is no part". so, if you can remove the parts needed to give a day night cycle for plants, that seems like it would be good, particularly if orbital greenhouses are go be involved also in generating electrical power, as well as crops, and a nice place to visit (Maybe).

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-08-13 09:22:21)

Void · 2022-08-14 20:02:20

I noticed this article a few days ago: https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/2022 … 000-people

So, I don't expect all sedimentary rock to be equal in quality. But I am going to guess that some will be suitable. My greater desire is to find suitable sedimentary rock under a giant ice slab, or under the ice in the Valles Marinaris.

Where they did as much as they did with old technology, people who might go to Mars to live should be able to do much nicer work, and to have lighting that is psychologically acceptable.

So, the bulk of living space might be in the rock with some vaults and passages in the ice, where perhaps some natural light would shine into. And on occasion a well-built observatory here and there where you could actually see the sun and the stars.

This may strongly reduce the amount of high-quality building materials which might be needed to inhabit the planet with large populations.

And actually, if under ice, let's not rule out canals for Mars: https://ychef.files.bbci.co.uk/1600x900/p0cndv10.webp

I suppose someone with the wealth for it might make a pleasant parkland, but I note the sea water which may freeze at -2 degC, will have a vapor pressure lower than the average Martian surface pressure. And it might support life, including simple and more complex life. But mostly I would think to have robot canoes, and robot portage equipment for slo-mo transfers of cargos.

I have mentioned this sort of thing before. The watercraft might have electric power systems and have recharge locations periodically.

Tunnels under the ice may help to confirm and access ore deposits under the ice.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-08-14 20:16:56)

Void · 2022-08-14 20:56:11

I pillaged this from: "Index» Science, Technology, and Astronomy» Planetary Cores and potentials for geothermal power.", Post #17

I think that this is a similar article (th): https://www.treehugger.com/geothermal-d … gy-5219924
Quote:
You Can Have Geothermal Power Everywhere If You Drill Deep Enough
A new technology drills with microwaves and can go down 12 miles to where the real heat is.
By
Lloyd Alter
Published February 23, 2022 09:00AM EST
Fact checked by
Katherine Martinko
I think it may not be out of the question for this to be a good thing for Mars.
My thinking about Mars, is what I have read, and that says that Mars has not had that much tectonics, and so I am guessing that sediments have been building up for billions of years. That alternately seems to be covered in lava flows.
The crust of Mars is supposed to be more porous than that of Earth, and it appears that the hot core is stratified. To me that indicates that although small, Mars may have conserved its heat, while Earth has been pumping it out through the spreading plates of the oceans.
I also wonder about that drilling technology, to go sideways, as it may serve humans well to have honeycombs of undergrounds for extensive habitable areas.
And as I believe I have seen Calliban suggest an ice-covered lake as a radiator.
Done.

So, then heat from below, and cold from above. Ice vaults with day lighting to some degree, and vast undergrounds, and perhaps water canals with portage methods.

Only missing part might be artificial gravity, but that may well come along as well, in vast caverns below.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-08-14 20:59:46)

Void · 2022-08-14 21:08:56

I can expect that people will run and hide if I continue to mention water canals for Mars, but it may be an excellent way to gather "Makeup Water". You just keep melting tunnels on the grounding line of ice slabs. You leave a dirt canal under the ice roof. If the water is say -2 degC and salty like the ocean, lights or chemicals can keep it thawed, and also grow biomass. It may be expensive to line the ice arch above with a suitable substance. But the payoff may be great as your canal system will just keep expanding, and reaching minerals needed.

Very good chances that -2 degC will not melt the permafrost below it as it is very cold, and the canals would be rather narrow, so cold from above would continue to intrude downward from the sides, and to under to bottom of the canal.

But microbes can even grow at -13 degC per "Lake Vida", I believe, but it has to be really salty. Probably do not have to go to such an extreme.

So, technically you might even have electric trolly lines in the tunnels, so you would be able to float your cargos with robot boats/canoes, with portages at intervals.

The atmosphere would not have to be suitable for humans in shirtsleeves. A pressure of 10 millibar might be enough, but you could almost certainly go higher, but it might be just pressurized Martian air, with Oxygen in it, if you do have plant growth lights shining in the canal water.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-08-15 10:01:35)

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#426 2022-08-02 17:32:25

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#427 2022-08-04 11:14:05

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#428 2022-08-04 12:17:06

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#429 2022-08-04 12:52:25

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#430 2022-08-05 11:26:10

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#431 2022-08-05 19:07:22

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#432 2022-08-06 09:25:16

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#433 2022-08-06 15:13:05

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#434 2022-08-07 10:37:06

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#435 2022-08-08 06:12:51

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#436 2022-08-08 06:39:01

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#437 2022-08-08 09:13:33

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#438 2022-08-08 11:49:06

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#439 2022-08-09 07:43:50

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#440 2022-08-09 09:18:52

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#441 2022-08-09 11:25:35

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#442 2022-08-11 11:01:17

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#443 2022-08-11 12:18:31

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#444 2022-08-11 19:20:53

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#445 2022-08-12 13:06:32

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#446 2022-08-12 18:38:10

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#447 2022-08-13 08:55:17

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#448 2022-08-14 20:02:20

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#449 2022-08-14 20:56:11

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

#450 2022-08-14 21:08:56

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

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