My Hacienda On Mars

tahanson43206 · 2022-06-25 07:19:33

For SpaceNut re #900

Thank you for writing a eulogy for your family friend, and sharing it here on NewMars.

Thanks too, for thinking of My Hacienda as a suitable topic for this remembrance.

Different cultures have different ways of returning the materials we use while alive to the Universe.

Some cultures let those materials go right away. Some hang onto them for literally thousands of Earth years.

Most science fiction writers seem to lean toward immediate re-use of the materials we no longer need.

Your introduction of this important concern into the My Hacienda topic is helpful.

It's been a while since I last thought about the specializations that might be included in a 7800 plot community. Your suggestion for these is helpful.

For the near term, back on Earth, I would imagine the family will remember this loyal friend with a small headstone of some kind.

SearchTerm:Eulogy for family friend

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-07-21 19:37:03

I think that we talked about the first few lots of temporary structures would be removed to make way for a ceremonial sacred ground. That it would hold the images and memories for the future to take hold of.

tahanson43206 · 2022-08-05 09:17:18

I am bringing My Hacienda back into view because of the possibility that our newest member, BeerMan, might be interested in thinking about the My Hacienda concept. My Hacienda started out with one of the many expansive ideas of Louis. In the case of My Hacienda, Louis had imagined a city that he proposed to call Sagan City. He suggested a location for this entity, near the landing site of one of the early NASA space probes.

Since that inspiring beginning, SpaceNut and I have accumulated a list of specializations that would together make up part of a self-sufficient community. The list is far from complete! In fact, we have not yet identified a full 1000 specializations, out of the target number of 7800 plots.

To see the full list (as of right now) search for a post that contains "Registry" and "Hacienda"

or search for "registry" and "plotmaster"

The topic is part of Politics and Economy, to narrow the search.

To save everyone time, here is a direct link: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 75#p154875

SpaceNut and I are looking for suggestions for specializations needed to fill out the list of 7800.

The actual list is closer to 2600, because the working principle is to use the Capitalism Rule of Three ...

It is standard practice (or so I understand) for municipalities in the United States to look for at least three vendors to supply goods or services.

In that spirit, it is a working principle that every specialization will be carried out by at least three competitors.

In the case of BeerMan (as just the most recent example) there would be a minimum of three brewery's in the community.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2022-12-12 08:31:30

0039 insitu battery manufacturing containing 4 current topics of materials that could be used. see post 162 for list
0040 Early solar panel battery combination for exploratory expedition range extension initially supplied from earth but later insitu made

I am bringing My Hacienda back into view because batteries keep running out of juice in this location, and rechargeable seem (to me at least) to be more trouble than they are worth.

A good quality alkaline battery would (it seems to me) be highly valued on Mars for all sorts of applications, just as it is now on Earth.

On the other hand, a reliable battery for solar power storage would be valuable for all of Louis solar panel customers, and (at this point) it seems to me the time proven lead acid battery technology that is pervasive on Earth will find a place on Mars.

Here are existing topics that contain the word "battery" in the title:

Solid State Battery by tahanson43206
Science, Technology, and Astronomy 4 2022-10-10 19:11:26 by SpaceNut
The EV Battery Revolution by louis [ 1 2 ]
Science, Technology, and Astronomy 28 2022-06-26 10:43:07 by Mars_B4_Moon
Iron Air Battery by SpaceNut
Science, Technology, and Astronomy 24 2021-10-24 18:31:19 by SpaceNut
Glass Battery by tahanson43206
Science, Technology, and Astronomy 3 2021-09-30 18:28:03 by Calliban
Multi-Input air battery by Void
Life support systems 0 2021-09-03 17:50:45 by Void
Mystery Battery Technology by tahanson43206
Science, Technology, and Astronomy 19 2021-08-06 23:34:09 by SpaceNut
Sodium-Iron battery? by Terraformer
Science, Technology, and Astronomy 18 2021-07-27 04:10:20 by Calliban
Battery power construction equipment by SpaceNut [ 1 2 3 ]
Planetary transportation 73 2021-05-28 15:09:38 by SpaceNut
Flow Battery by tahanson43206
Science, Technology, and Astronomy 21 2020-12-16 17:03:44 by tahanson43206
Nickel Iron battery units by Calliban

My Hacienda is about setting up and running businesses on Mars. The market for all kinds of batteries will be solid and reliable, and it will grow as the population increases.

(th)

Calliban · 2022-12-15 10:31:17

As per Tom's suggestion, a plot devoted to a subsurface rock quarry.
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=6872

The produce of the quarry itself will have numerous applications - roads, railway embankments and sleepers, landing pads, to name just a few. The quarry will be mined in sections, say 100m x 100m, with access tunnels to each section branching off of a central main access tunnel. Room and pillar mining will be employed. When each section is exhausted, the access tunnel leading to it will be filled with waste rock, producing an air dam. The excavated area can then be pressurised, developed into a habitation space and linked to already pressurised sections by tunnelling through the ajoining wall. A single square kilometre of land, assuming adequate geology, would yield up to 100 sections.

Assuming a population density of 20,000 per km2 and a 50% volume extraction, each square kilometre would provide sufficient living space for a town of 10,000 people. Assuming that the quarry mines out rock to a depth of 10m, then some 5 million cubic metres of stone could be provided by a quarry covering 1km2. That is 10-15 million tonnes. Sufficient for about 1000km of double track road or railway. The operation of the mine differs from that of similar mines on Earth. The high cost of fuel on Mars, favours the use of rail to move people, equipment and product into and out of the mine. Additionally, the operational logistics will favour converting segments of the mine into pressurised habitation space continuously, as mining progresses. This favours a segmented layout with branching tunnels into each segment. Work on new segments will take place one at a time, with new segments opened only after exhaustion of the previous segment.

The compact nature of the town and insulation provided by the overbearing rock mass, should provide enough insulation to allow equipment waste heat to keep the habitat warm. This allows the nuclear power source to be colocated with agricultural areas and water mining activities. This avoids the need for heat transfer pipework over several km of open landscape and instead allows polytunnels to be clustered around the nuclear power source.

Human effluents and food wastes will be removed from the town and transported to agricultural areas via pipeline, with pumping power provided by jet pumps. Similar pipe networks will provide the colony with fresh water and capsule pipelines will be used to ship food into the town. Power supply will be provided using a mixture of nuclear electric and solar thermal power, with the latter being located directly above the mine site. The solar thermal power will provide direct process heat for applications like hot water and cooking, with large scale heat storage in hot rock and hot water. Solar thermal will also provide direct electric power (without storage) to certain power consuming functions that only take place during daylight hours. This could include the lighting of artificial sky installed above hallways, for example, or power consumed by activities that only take place 9-5.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-12-15 11:42:13)

tahanson43206 · 2022-12-15 12:26:13

For Calliban re #305

Thanks for the psychological boost of a new entry for Plotmaster for My Hacienda.

That initiative ran for a while on the energy created by Louis' original vision of Sagan City, but without input from anyone else, it withered.

Now, with a fresh injection of energy from Steve Stewart and Calliban (and others) collaborating on a meaningful/realistic underground city vision, I am looking forward to returning to the Plotmaster.

Work on the JavaScript initiative is under way, and making progress after a slow period, so I'll put update of My Hacienda into the queue for this weekend.

If you are inspired by the nature of the My Hacienda/Sagan City concept, additional suggestions for new specializations will be welcome.

In addition, some (if not many) of the existing plot definitions may well deserve review, as time has passed since they were created, and new information about Mars has been arriving with every packet from the rovers and satellites.

(th)

Void · 2022-12-15 13:14:35

I have provided a library of "Some" options for base locations, as I am curious how your concepts might be adapted. But I don't want to swam this topic so "http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 78#p204178", Post #674.

While building under sheets of ice may be good or bad, having a large reserve of water is almost certainly good for Mars. But the potential of geothermal is also attractive. I guess the hope would be to have both.

But eventually there will be cities/settlements in many places on Mars.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-15 13:16:54)

Calliban · 2022-12-15 14:22:30

Cerberus Fossae appears to be the leak site for Martian methane emissions. This appears to be the place to go if you want piped natural gas. If methane deposits do exist in quantity, then we have ready made rocket and vehicle fuel. This fuel would also be invaluable as a feedstock for polymer and steel manufacture. Most likely, we would electrolyse water, use the oxygen for methane-oxygen rocket propellant and use the hydrogen to reduce iron oxide.

Cerberus Fossae appears to be the most promissing target for methane, liquid water and geothermal heat. This is clearly the best location for the first Martian base. I would put a tenner on it. Not that a tenner will be worth much in 2030.

Void · 2022-12-15 20:45:46

I think I might want to put some money on it as well. Please have a look at this and give me any thoughts you might have.
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 82#p204182
Done.

SpaceNut · 2022-12-16 20:28:10

Pre-preparation is the only way that man can go with any amount of mass and expect to be able to stay safely. It's the reuse that allows for even missions of the same mass to be able to build if we continue to send extra stuff by opposition missions to support mars.

Tall poles for all to start is dependable power to support man and the means to create oxygen, water and of course heat so that we can grow food to supplement man's imports to mars until we are well established.

tahanson43206 · 2022-12-23 10:50:24

Todo items:

In addition to the additions inspired by Calliban #305....

Discussion with SpaceNut in a topic about the price of fuel inspires the thought of vehicle rental services

Wealthy individuals may be able to afford their own cross-terrain vehicles, but there would seem (to me for sure) to be a business opportunity for an entrepreneur who is willing and able to stock, maintain and provide emergency recovery capabilities for outdoor vehicles for use by ordinary Mars dwellers, or government agencies who do not wish to maintain their own stable of equipment.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-12-23 18:53:04

That would also go hand in hand with manufacturing of all items that would be needed to create them for use. Plus, all of the replacement parts to keep them running.

Like you indicated you now have lots of store fronts for all of this and dealership to perform the service of them.

tahanson43206 · 2022-12-24 07:39:58

For SpaceNut re #312

Thank you for your reminder that manufacturing needs to be included in the plotmaster.

A work session in the plotmaster has become a mini-project, due to it's size. It must be searched to avoid duplication of specializations, and even for a single entry that takes time, because language of the new entry may differ from existing entries even though it covers the same functionality.

The plotmaster is intended to eventually capture ** all ** the specializations needed to support a 1st tier civilization on another planet. 8700 plots may not be enough, but that is the arbitrary target inspired by Louis' original vision of Sagan City on Mars.

We haven't even reached the first 1000 specializations, so we have a long way to go.

Today's post is to add a suggestion that arose from a discussion with kbd512 about the risks associated with various kinds of emergency power backup systems.

The discussion revealed (to me for sure) the entire field of risk management.

Risk management is a field that includes insurance, public policy, court procedures, specialized skills of all kinds for dealing with a great variety of technology, and without a doubt other concerns/issues that I've not thought of.

Here is an opportunity for NewMars members to contribute suggestions for specific specializations that would fit into the My Hacienda structure in an attempt to provide a robust risk management infrastructure to residents.

Health risks may well have been covered in My Hacienda plotmaster already, because they are so basic to any human enterprise.

Update following "conversation" with kbd512 ... if solar trough systems are not currently in My Hacienda plotmaster, they would seem a good fit.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-12-24 19:35:57

We might also want a strategic planning office as well to aid as a resource of knowledge to aid in the evaluation of those risks and to mitigate them.

tahanson43206 · 2022-12-24 20:18:36

For SpaceNut re #314

My Hacienda is set up to operate as an interlocking and interdependent set of capitalist enterprises.

Your vision of a strategic planning office is thought provoking, and I hope other NewMars members will think (and post) about the idea.

Sagan City has not been defined as of yet. There's been plenty of discussion in the forum archives but no decisions were made.

The traditional forms of city government in the US are the City Manager system and the Mayoral system.

The City Manager form of government is characterized by stability of leadership, so a strategic planning department would make perfect sense.

As Sagan City is shaping up in My Hacienda, there are a minimum of three instances of each specialization to insure competition between the entities.

I am imagining a system of distribution of talent to each entity similar to the method used by the American sports leagues, where by convention, in order to insure a reasonable level of competition, the teams with the worst performance get first opportunity to recruit talent.

A convention like that would (hopefully) prevent the domination of a given specialization by one family/group, and bankruptcy of the competitors.

A strong City Manager would seem (to me at least) better able to manage capitalism to achieve the maximum long term benefit to the society, than the Mayoral system. On the ** other ** hand, choosing the individual to serve as City Manager would test the wisdom of whatever decision making body is put in place to hire the person.

Update 2022/12/28 ... work has started on updates to My Hacienda PlotMaster ...

I made a copy of the current PlotMaster from NewMars, and compared it to one saved in 2021. The differences were minor (spelling for example), so I'm confident this is a copy of PlotMaster I can safely update offline.

For each update to be made, it is necessary to search the existing collection to avoid duplication.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2022-12-28 11:21:33

For SpaceNut re #314....

We might also want a strategic planning office as well to aid as a resource of knowledge to aid in the evaluation of those risks and to mitigate them.

I've started work on an update of My Hacienda after a long pause .... your post here contains a lot of inspiration in a small package...

After pondering your words here for a while, it came to me that this forum ** is ** the Strategic Planning Office for My Hacienda!

The concept I am proposing is to take advantage of the highly successful American Free Enterprise system.

My Hacienda PlotMaster is set up with three plots per specialization, to insure that the standard minimum of three vendors are always available to compete for work, whether the customer is a government entity or a private one.

In order to avoid the inevitable concentration of talent in any one entity, I am proposing that the normal human impulse toward uncontrolled greed be modestly tempered, with a variation of the National Football League (US) and the various baseball consortium policy, to give the least productive entities first crack at new talent when it comes out of the schools each year.

The "resource of knowledge" idea is an important one, and while the Internet (at least on Earth) provides a rich search space for knowledge/advice/misinformation, the traditional library of books, and human repositories of knowledge are important elements to include in a solution.

The NewMars forum archive can play a small role in this "repository", primarily by pointing to other locations of knowledge and advice, and (hopefully) pointing out sites where misinformation is broadcast.

I'll take your suggestions into consideration while attempting the next round of updates to PlotMaster.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-12-28 17:25:54

Yes, the scheduling of priority business and what is located nearby as well as which plots are developed and when they are from the time of starting to when all plots are filled.

tahanson43206 · 2022-12-31 16:27:25

For SpaceNut and all ...

Here are updates added to the Plotmaster for Sagan City (2018)...

0496 Consulting - planning - strategic planning Vendor #1
0497 Consulting - planning - strategic planning Vendor #2
0498 Consulting - planning - strategic planning Vendor #3
0499 Legal services - lawyer - Vendor #1
0500 Legal services - Lawyer - Vendor #2
0501 Legal services - Lawyer - Vender #3
0502 Solar panel manufacture and service Vendor #1
0503 Solar panel manufacture and service Vendor #2
0504 Solar panel manufacture and service Vendor #3
0505 Solar Trough manufacture and service Vendor #1
0506 Solar Trough manufacture and service Vendor #2
0507 Solar Trough manufacture and service Vendor #3
0508 Doctor Vendor #1
0509 Doctor Vendor #2
0510 Doctor Vendor #3
0511 Dentist Vendor #1
0512 Dentist Vendor #2
0513 Dentist Vendor #3
0514 Grocery/General store Vendor #2
0515 Grocery/General store Vendor #3
0516 Pharmacy/Drug store Vendor #1
0517 Pharmacy/Drug store Vendor #2
0518 Pharmacy/Drug store Vendor #3
0519 Medical Services/Hospital/Research/Teaching Vendor #2
0520 Medical Services/Hospital/Research/Teaching Vendor #3

Additions are welcome.

Please save me time by searching the existing Plotmaster before suggesting additions.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-10 13:18:21

For SpaceNut ....

The purpose of this post is to bring My Hacienda into the Active list, in case anyone might be interested in taking a look at it.

Topic:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=8918
Plotmaster:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 75#p154875

My Hacienda is intended to provide a framework for (upto) 7800 individuals to create a community based upon the principles of Division of Labor and Specialization, in the context of a community that would deliver a first tier level of civilization on Mars.

A test version of this community can most certainly be created on Earth.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-11 12:17:29

tahanson43206 wrote:

For SpaceNut ....
The purpose of this post is to bring My Hacienda into the Active list, in case anyone might be interested in taking a look at it.
Topic:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=8918
Plotmaster:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 75#p154875
My Hacienda is intended to provide a framework for (upto) 7800 individuals to create a community based upon the principles of Division of Labor and Specialization, in the context of a community that would deliver a first tier level of civilization on Mars.
A test version of this community can most certainly be created on Earth.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-12 10:56:08

tahanson43206 wrote:

For SpaceNut ....
The purpose of this post is to bring My Hacienda into the Active list, in case anyone might be interested in taking a look at it.
Topic:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=8918
Plotmaster:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 75#p154875
My Hacienda is intended to provide a framework for (upto) 7800 individuals to create a community based upon the principles of Division of Labor and Specialization, in the context of a community that would deliver a first tier level of civilization on Mars.
A test version of this community can most certainly be created on Earth.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2023-01-12 19:42:28

I see that the registry is without manufacturing fabric for parachutes, no materials for blimps or balloons. Plastics clear plus glass for greenhouse or window use and pvc as well as other types of synthetic nylon and other thread materials. Fiber optic cabling materials for cabling build to build network and repair as well as to expand.

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-12 20:43:52

For SpaceNut re Post #322

Thanks for important Todo list items!

This post is reserved for an update tomorrow or this weekend.

Update Saturday .... thanks for additional items to add in Post #324

(th)

SpaceNut · 2023-01-14 18:06:09

Looking at the first page and the registry we are in need of the ability to create a large variety of fuel, liquid and gas types of tanks, along with collection for waste and other purposes including thermal energy storage in a variety of materials from plastics, glass and metal as well as composite methods.

Another is the off shoot of pipeline in that we need connecting tubing, fittings connection ect to be created as well as bringing the first welding gear.

It also looks like after the foundry systems there is no manufacturing into other products from the ore processing or smelting operations.

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-14 21:54:31

For SpaceNut --- here are additions to the PlotMaster....

A few edits were applied to the existing plots....

These are new items .... some of the items you suggested existed so I added text (in some cases) to help you to find them

0521 Banking: Second Bank of NewMars
0522 Banking: Third Bank of NewMars
0523 Manufacturer#1 -sales-support-maintenance: Balloons - Blimps
0524 Manufacturer#2 -sales-support-maintenance: Balloons - Blimps
0525 Manufacturer#3 -sales-support-maintenance: Balloons - Blimps
0526 Manufacturer#1 -sales-distribution-support: plastics
0527 Manufacturer#2 -sales-distribution-support: plastics
0528 Manufacturer#3 -sales-distribution-support: plastics
0529 Manufacturer#1 -sales-support-maintnance: Windows - plastic glass aluminum (ALON) other materials for habitat/greenhouse/other
0530 Manufacturer#2 -sales-support-maintnance: Windows - plastic glass aluminum (ALON) other materials for habitat/greenhouse/other
0531 Manufacturer#3 -sales-support-maintnance: Windows - plastic glass aluminum (ALON) other materials for habitat/greenhouse/other
0532 Manufacturer#2 -sales-support-maintenance: Pipe of all descriptions for gas / fluids PVC iron other materials
0532 Manufacturer#3 -sales-support-maintenance: Pipe of all descriptions for gas / fluids PVC iron other materials
0533 Manufacturer#1 -sales-support-maintnance: cable wound wire for construction/equipment/infrastructure
0534 Manufacturer#2 -sales-support-maintnance: cable wound wire for construction/equipment/infrastructure
0535 Manufacturer#3 -sales-support-maintnance: cable wound wire for construction/equipment/infrastructure
0536 Manufacturer#1 -sales-support-maintnance: Tanks for storage of liquid and gases
0537 Manufacturer#2 -sales-support-maintnance: Tanks for storage of liquid and gases
0538 Manufacturer#3 -sales-support-maintnance: Tanks for storage of liquid and gases
0539 Minerals processor #1
0540 Minerals processor #2
0541 Minerals processor #3
0542 Biofuels processor #1
0543 Biofuels processor #2
0544 Biofuels processor #3
0545 Farm operator #1
0546 Farm operator #2
0547 Farm operator #3
0548 Farm operator #4
0549 Farm operator #5
0550 Farm operator #6
0551 Farm operator #7
0552 Farm operator #8
0553 Farm operator #9
0554 Farm operator #10
0555 Farm operator #11
0556 Farm operator #12
0557 Farm operator #13
0558 Farm operator #14
0559 Farm operator #15
0560 Farm operator #16
0561 Farm operator #17
0562 Farm operator #18
0563 Farm operator #19
0564 Farm operator #20
0565 Farm operator #21
0566 Manufacturer#1 - sales-distribution-support: Fittings, Couplings, all types, all materials
0567 Manufacturer#2 - sales-distribution-support: Fittings, Couplings, all types, all materials
0568 Manufacturer#3 - sales-distribution-support: Fittings, Couplings, all types, all materials

Please note that the farms are not defined ... many will raise multiple crops in rotation. Some will raise livestock - the number of farms can be increased

(th)

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Re: My Hacienda On Mars

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