Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Void · 2022-07-25 09:09:25

In this post, I will claim that I am seeking to Terraform or Para Terraform our solar system. I do that as I do not want to suffer the "Off Topic" power move that might otherwise seek to stifle this effort. In reality I think that the claim of the first sentence is correct even so.

As I am trying to break unknown ground my chances of significant errors in thinking is large. But then you either get it right or you get it wrong. If you get it wrong, then you learn, and may try a alternative notion. If you get it right, then you may know a productive thing to do.

If you do nothing you may avoid trouble, but you probably learn nothing.

We can guess why Starship is structured as it is. They calculated what they might do, presuming no other entity likely to do anything of use in the vacuum presumed to result from human intentions.

But in reality, they are not alone. There are other aspirants to the possibility of achievements in space and for the human race.

At this time, I think I understand a bit about the costs to space flight. There is inertia, atmospheric drags, gravitational hover costs related to time in a gravitational field, and of course time vs. the overcoming of inertia.

I am going to take a pause, but first I will say that I want to seek to blend the contents of several of the recently previous posts, with the notion of Starships efforts then also assisted by Electron Argon Devices, and also Hydro Lox propulsion devices. I need a moment to think more.

I have imagined a geosynchronous platform(s) in previous posts, an suggested why I think they may be of value.

I would also like to suggest that there could be others. 1) LEO+, 2) Lunar Associated, and at least 3) Geo synch for Mars.

1) LEO+ is just that it might be OK to be a bit above LEO as then you need expend less effort to maintain the orbit as you would be higher in the Earth's atmosphere. Also, you may be a bit outside of the major amount of space junk, I hope.

2) Lunar? Well somewhere out there, eventually I suppose a notion will develop about relative advantage.

I can see the logic for Metha Lox for Starship or Terran-R or Neutron. This would make most sense for dealing directly with Earth and its lowest orbits and Mars, and its lowest orbits. I could go into details but that would likely bore people who already understand.

It seems to me that the three substances currently seeming to be of value, away from planets such as Earth and Mars, are Water, Argon, and CO2.

There is no reason to seek to disassemble the SpaceX plan to reach Mars and the Moon with refueling. It would be good to retain that ability, even later in developments. But as I see it, it might be good to have the option for reaching down from the LEO+ platform(s) to fetch stuff upward from Starships and their like from LEO. Those methods could include Electric Argon, probably for cargo, and possibly Hydro Lox, to fetch humans and perhaps even to fetch a Starship up to LEO+. A space tug that might work for the Hydro Lox, at this stage in time might be the Centaur.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_tug

"Platforms" might hold lots of water for shielding from radiation and for agriculture at the same time, and to make Hydro Lox propellants.
Similarly, they might hold significant Argon reserves, and perhaps some Carbon. They would then be sites to cook up propellants as needed, probably using solar energy, but nuclear would not be ruled out.

Such propellants may come from Earth, Mars, and the Moon, and some think they can get water, and I suppose Carbon from asteroids by robotic methods.

A Starship launch to Mars and the Moon could involve boosts to the ships where appropriate to higher or lower orbits, by use of Hydro Lox tugs, or for the cargo in some cases by Argon Electric propulsion. Nuclear is not ruled out for some cases. Maybe Nuclear Argon Electric.

Well, that is the most of it. You use Hydro Lox tugs to change orbits of Metha Lox ships, you primarily use Electric Argon methods to move cargo, and cargo can include water, Argon and perhaps Carbon.

It's likely I will have something else later.

OK, eventually Laser propulsions, Photon Sails and Magnetic Solar Wind Sails, but those are just starting up. A considerable distance off, I think.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-25 10:04:44)

Void · 2022-07-25 13:04:04

In the last post I feel that I left out a factor. Food as a radiation protection, and as food when needed, and possibly as propellants if so needed.

While the notion of keeping big tanks of water as protection from radiation on these proposed platforms seems worthy. Also, with the fluxes of energy that are provided by the sun at these stations, the notion of overproduction of food may be sensible. In times of plenty you freeze or freeze dry food as an addition to radiation shielding, and as food in the future if you were to fall on hard times from some combination of unfortunate events. Life does not always play the way we want, so providing yourself with extra edges on fate is not a bad notion.

That, and perhaps stored Lunar Regolith also as shielding may be sensible. These can be stored at reasonable temperatures and would afford flexibility in response to unexpected developments.

Done

Last edited by Void (2022-07-25 13:08:04)

Void · 2022-07-26 09:08:46

I wasn't ready to post but I see there were 5 members signed on so I thought I would make it 6

Done.

Void · 2022-07-27 13:27:23

Well, you know how I am, protecting the new world from the old world.

I will appropriate something from here and add to it. "Index» Science, Technology, and Astronomy» Nuclear vs. Solar vs. Others"

Mars_B4_Moon, puts a lot of materials on this site. Sometimes it clicks for me. From post #243 of that topic mentioned above, Quote:

Well I sort of have an attraction to one of the subtopics of the previous post by MbfM.
This one: "Green Ammonia To Rescue US Farmers From Fertilizer Supply Woes"
https://cleantechnica.com/2022/07/25/gr … pply-woes/
In the article they talk about using offshore winds. Using remote energy sources that are otherwise hard to connect to grids, to produce chemicals seems very sensible to me.
I have previously had a look at the "Roaring 40's".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roaring_Forties
Quote:
Roaring Forties
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigationJump to search
For the electric company, see Roaring 40s.
Not to be confused with Roaring Twenties.
The Roaring Forties in the Cook Strait of New Zealand produce high waves, and they erode the shore as shown in this image.
The Roaring Forties are strong westerly winds found in the Southern Hemisphere, generally between the latitudes of 40°S and 50°S.[1] The strong west-to-east air currents are caused by the combination of air being displaced from the Equator towards the South Pole, the Earth's rotation, and the scarcity of landmasses to serve as windbreaks at those latitudes.
The Roaring Forties were a major aid to ships sailing the Brouwer Route from Europe to the East Indies or Australasia during the Age of Sail, and in modern times are favoured by yachtsmen on round-the-world voyages and competitions. The boundaries of the Roaring Forties are not consistent: The wind-stream shifts north or south depending on the season.
Similar but even stronger conditions that occur at more southerly latitudes are called the Furious Fifties and the Shrieking or Screaming Sixties.
Picture Quote: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ … rRoute.png
So, the 50's and 60's as well
No stationary wind platforms for this, rather ships with sails and dragging a water turbine behind them.
I recall members, I think kdb512 talking about Ammonia as fuel.
Query: "Ammonia as fuel"
Responses: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Ammonia+a … 294c439d1e
A specific response: https://www.sustainable-carbon.org/ammo … he-future/
So then the ship is a sailing ship, with a dragged water turbine system to generate electric power, to cook up chemicals, including Ammonia perhaps.
Query: "Ammonia internal combustion engine"
General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Ammonia+i … 445a965d14
Specific Wiki response: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonia
Quote:
Ammonia - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Ammonia
Ammonia engines were used experimentally in the 19th century by Goldsworthy Gurney in the UK and the St. Charles Avenue Streetcar line in New Orleans in the 1870s and 1880s, and during World War II ammonia was used to power buses in Belgium. Ammonia is sometimes proposed as a ...See more
But there are winds in the Atlantic and Pacific that may be more local for various nations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevailing_winds
Picture Quote: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ … _earth.png
So, now perhaps a method that works for people like North America and Europe and people also compatible in nature such as Japan and others of that region.
I think this may be much more accessible than fusion power at this time.
I wonder what such ships would look like? Super Tanker sized?
And the sails.
This is a thing that all Technical, Industrial, and even the Religious Greens should support. And a national security item, so it should be of interest at the highest levels, I would think. I can see North Europeans, Japan and other pacific rim nations and indeed Canada and the USA to be interested.
And as the motor fuel is also fertilizer, I cannot see agricultural nations not be interested.
I was thinking of just one drag turbine on a ship, but now I think many, and so they could have magnetic drag imposed on them selectively to help navigate the ship. But of course if you are running an Ammonia engine(s) to propel the ship they would be drag, but maybe not too bad at low speeds. Maybe it need a bit of work.
Maybe the turbines could also serve as propellers when needed.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-27 13:32:31)

Void · 2022-07-27 13:33:32

And so, what about sails?

A sort of kite has been considered, and I would consider that to be a tensile sail.

Historical sails required somewhat rigid masts sort of held up by compressive forces, I sort of think.

We think of space elevators with cables with unobtainable tensile strength. But it seems to be considered true that stuff we have now might work for lesser tasks. Maybe a space elevator for Mars, or maybe tethers in orbit to snatch things from the Earth's upper atmosphere.

So, anyway pretty strong.

What about an airship with a sail below it where you find a way to attach it to a ship to drag through the water?

Maybe several above and below each other in a serial fashion?

You have a problem to get them hooked together, and then to drag the ship. This though is different than historical sails as the more you add, the more you drag, and to capsize the ship is perhaps a reduced probability.

So then you cook up some chemicals with the electricity generated but need to bring the ship to ports to distribute it then. I guess you need a procedure to unhook the sail/airships, and somehow get them to hook to another ship.

Problems to solve.

Those who continue to seek to enslave the new world(s), have less access to the deep seas. Our heritage makes it likely that our kinds could succeed in such a task as this. This could be our ticket to space and the ocean of stars. We should take it.

Our would be captors should be left in the dirt.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-27 13:54:41)

Void · 2022-07-28 07:04:49

Continuing with the previous post, I can see advantages and problems.

Lightning could be an issue particularly if your lifting gas is Hydrogen. But I guess ships, and lighter than aircraft have found ways. Although this could be worse, as you have a potential giant lightning rod.

But on the other hand, is it possible to draw an electric current from the sails into the water?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospher … %20neutral.

If the problem of lightning can be solved, and also a method to extract differential electrical potential from the machine, that would be quite good.

----

Hydrogen as a lifting gas. I guess if you are manufacturing Ammonia or other chemicals you are likely to be able to manufacture Hydrogen which you may use as a lifting gas for your sails. The sails have not been defined in structure too much except that they are more pull than push in nature.

----

It may be that the idea in general for these ships is that they would not come to a port, but rather a different ship would transfer things from ship to shore. These things then might be kept at sea as long as may be practical.

They could make chemicals and distill water. It is possible that they could have some forms of manufacturing on them.

Well, those are my thoughts up to this point.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-28 07:12:51)

Void · 2022-07-28 07:34:33

It just occurred to me that if such a "Pulling" sail were to precede a ship like an inclined ramp, then it might collect rain into the ship.

And also, in fogs it might condense water as well, that might run down it to the ship. If that could be marketed on shore, fine, but also, perhaps it could support productive processes on the ship.

So, have a drink of water.
https://www.waterworld.com/drinking-wat … ndensation
Quote:

New studies show options for gathering water from fog, condensation
Jan. 2, 2019
Inspired by desert life, research focuses on collecting clean water from air.

The cactus, beetle and desert grasses all collect water condensed from nighttime fog, gathering droplets from the air and filtering them to roots or reservoirs, providing enough hydration to survive.

So.....Maybe lots of resources untapped.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-28 07:37:35)

Void · 2022-07-28 12:07:03

I recall being told that this happens between the land and sea.

https://www.quora.com/Why-does-the-wind … n-at-night
Quote:

HsBadarinath
Former CE, Graduate, PG, Research Scholar and Faculty at Indian Institute of Technology, Roorkee (1964–2000)Author has 50.2K answers and 31.9M answer views1y
Why does the wind change direction at night?
Land heats up faster than water. So during the day, the air above the land masses heat up faster and being light, rises. As a result, the wind from the sea which is at a lower temperature blows towards the land to occupy the space previously held be the warm air. That is known as ‘sea breeze’. At night, the land loses its heat faster than the sea/water. The sea being warmer than the land, the air above the sea rises and to occupy that space, wind blows from the land towards the sea and is termed as ‘land breeze’.
Yes, wind directions change alternately, during day and night.
611 viewsView upvotes

So that sort of confirms it. It only makes sense.

So, I am thinking that some smaller sized devices might move in and out from the shoreline, but you would want to hit the shoreline with a ship.

I suppose that if the ship had motors with a source of power that could help. Also, more or less drag in the water from the turbines.

I would imagine this particular notion would work the best near desert coastlines. Namibia, Southern California, Australia, North Africa, perhaps Persian Gulf. But of course, there are many places where the land may heat up during the day significantly and cool off at night as well.

I have thought of what might be done if you had to unhook the lighter than air sail in an emergency. I would suppose that a large UAV, could connect to it, and tow it with the sail perpendicular to the wind, but you might have to wait for a less windy period. Ideally that would never be necessary.

I would think that this version might be more suited towards catching rain and fog, or distilling water, as it would not be too far out to sea.
But the Ammonia too, I guess.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-28 12:16:07)

Void · 2022-07-28 19:52:19

Well I think that that has gone as far as I can take it at this time. My interest returns to Mars, and of course surface activities and perhaps orbital notions as well.

But for the surface, I am interested in the possible interactions of these sub parts:

Food: https://interestingengineering.com/inno … t-sunlight

Vertical Farming: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_farming

Habitats: https://www.cnn.com/style/article/nasa- … index.html

I have been getting a lot of a sense that Vertical Farming is getting fairly real for some crops in some situations.

Similar to that would be possible on Mars, but I wonder if it were blended with the Food without sunlight notions. The use of acetate to grow some plants, if as real as suggested.

So, then three methods, under the sun, under LEDs, and with Acetate as a chemosynthesis method. And then combinations of each, perhaps.

And I wonder about orbital habitats. Just now I am thinking of a slow rotating drum with water pressed from the interior to the walls to form a canister shaped lake. And then some similar method of water containers on the ends. This then as both radiation protection and aquiculture. Then within vacuum chambers with higher speed rotating, wheels. And above the lake due to low gravity, LED type vertical gardens. This might tend to overheat, but if the heat is put into the lake water, and then a secondary system cools it by rejecting heat to the universe then a sort of power recovery and energy storage method. Perhaps a fluid suitable, Ammonia? Maybe there is something that can tolerate lower temperatures than that.

So, basically, electric power from a source, solar and or nuclear, light into the habitat by LED, maybe windows. Heat into the lake water, then heat to the universe through some type of steam/condensation cycle of a fluid with a high vapor pressure at warm temperatures, and a condensation process at very cold temperatures.

But it's late. Tomorow maybe.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-28 20:01:12)

Calliban · 2022-07-29 09:17:54

The sun delivers a fixed flux per unit area of exposed surface. The amount of carbohydrate that a plant is able to produce per unit area, per unit time, must be proportional to flux, all else being equal. Too much flux and the plant suffers heat stress, which is unlikely to be problematic on Mars. On this basis, vertical farming only makes sense if supplemental lighting (LEDs) is provided. Most crops on Earth are grown under natural light. Some in greenhouses, most in outside air.

On Mars we have essentially two options for crop plants. We can grow plants under natural light in pressurised greenhouses. Or we can grow plants in artificial light in far more compact volumes. Which is best? Both options are energy hungry.

Natural light: Surface pressurised greenhouses must be large, with higher construction costs than a vertical farm. Depending upon the crop, lattitude and time of year, greenhouses may require substantial heating. On the plus side, this could make use of low grade waste heat from a fission reactor, which otherwise has little value. Space radiation could impose a dose hazard for farmers, but is unlikely to be a problem for plants provided that greenhouses have UV absorbant coatings.

Vertical: In theory, compact vertical farms can be constructed underground, greatly reducing construction costs compared to above ground greenhouses. Heating is also unneccesary, as light sources will generate plenty of process heat. Space radiation is not a problem, because an underground farm will be naturally shielded by its own overburden pressure ballast. The most significant problem here is the high energy consumption of lighting, given the low efficiency of photosynthesis. To feed your average person may require 200-300kWh per day of electrical energy. For this to work, electricity must be cheap.

We have the third variation of aquatic plants grown under ice.

Which is best? I don't know. There needs to be detailed engineering studies comparing these options. I think the answer will depend on where the Mars base is built. If it built in the far North, then an above ground greenhouse will produce precious little for at least half of a Martian year. If the cost of growing food is dominated by direct energy cost, then the above ground greenhouse may have an advantage relatively close to the equator. This is because waste heat is cheap, whilst electricity is expensive. The answer also depends on what we are growing. There is evidence to suggest that rye grass grows well at pressure 70mbar and wheat grows well in a 200mbar oxygen rich atmosphere. Low pressure reduces greenhouse structural cost. Micro-algae can be stored in an insulated tank and released into external panels only when the sun provides optimum insolation. Such systems require far less heating and less capital cost as well. Detailed economic assessments are needed to tell us which methods work best for each circumstance.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-07-29 09:22:10)

Void · 2022-07-29 09:24:08

I have been puzzling on the previous post, and still have an interest in orbital methods, but something Calliban posted now seems more interesting for a thing to work on.

From post #386:

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,941
Email
Void, another option that was introduced by Zubrin was to melt a dome shaped cavity under the pond ice layer and have an air bubble trapped in the cavity. The ice could be thick enough to allow a net compressive force even at the apex of the ice dome. We could use a thin layer of transparent insulation to prevent further melting. Your garden could then float in a large barge or tub, within the trapped air bubble.
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

In my previous post I suggested that perhaps agricultural blending might work well. I think that it could in a structure as described in the quote.

A three legged stool does not wobble?
1) Sunlight, (Through ice?).
2) LED's electric power solar and/or nuclear.
3) Chemosynthesis with acetate and Oxygen.

Oh, Calliban I did not notice post #410. I will read it before continuing.

Yes, that is also good information but there is a lot of complexity, I am now considering toroidal cavities in the ice, as they may be stronger, as curving in more dimensions than a dome. Also, a person inside cannot see everything, even from high up. This is a bit like being on the surface of the Earth. Also, you might go walking. As you cannot see everything, then individual areas can be given variations better.

So, then there could be sunlight most days, through the ice. But you could have artificial lighting as well, you might have aquatic or vertical LED towers. Any of these could be covered with transparent tents to allow the interior to be warmer, that way you have less chances of melting the ice above.

Because you have some natural light and perhaps can stimulate more growth with Acetate/Oxygen, you would likely need less LED's, and therefore less electricity to grow good crops. But the LED's likely could be used either to increase light intensity or to lengthen the days.
Plants do only need so much light, so, the amount from LED's should be reducible as plants typically are used to sunny and cloudy day periods.

It would be desirable to have as clear ice as possible. Degassing the water is helpful likely. But water expands to ice by volume ~9 to 10, so then cracks? How to work with that? Maybe some kind of annealing process using microwaves, during the freezing process?

If you had solar energy capture equipment adjacent to the toroid's, then they would shade that adjacent ice. If you can keep the ice sufficiently frozen, then you might also use heliostat mirrors to inject extra light through the ice.

Fun Fact Sea ice is more flexible than freshwater ice.

As for the surface of the ice exposed to the atmosphere, while we could us a slightly pressurized bubble, I have a tendency to think towards water ice bubble pancakes.

Basically, pancake shaped balloons that you fill with water and allow the water to freeze. That then intended to be stable inside of itself as the balloon is a container, and then to stabilize the ice below from its pressure in the gravitational field of Mars. Of course something has to be done about the Joins between balloons as well.

My view is that the balloons could project above the surrounding surface to some degree to discourage wind blown materials to travel up to the top of the balloons. And then also it would be needed to have some kind of cleaner/sweeper robots keeping the "Lense top" cleaner.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-29 09:53:32)

Void · 2022-07-29 10:04:04

What I think about these last few posts of mine and Calliban, is that if we can arrive at a method that actually is quite fit for the Martian environment, it can be done most places in some variation. And excess ice in some places can be moved to more equatorial places to do it there as well.

So, I feel it is very worth continuing an effort towards.

Done.

Void · 2022-07-29 11:04:21

Heat rejection is something that needs work. I have suggested that the adjacent areas may be shaded by solar collecting equipment, so those may be pretty cold. So then to push excessive accumulated heat to these areas to radiate heat to the universe. Ideally to do that while generating electrical power as well.

One possibility: https://techxplore.com/news/2020-01-ant … ep%20space.
Quote:

Home
Engineering
Home
Energy & Green Tech
JANUARY 30, 2020
Anti-solar cells: A photovoltaic cell that works at night
by Andy Fell, UC Davis

But it does need a lot of work but may give good rewards.

It is possible that solar collecting devices at night can be used to reject heat as well, and so generate electricity.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-29 11:06:58)

Void · 2022-07-29 12:52:42

Looking at your materials further Calliban, Quote:

We have the third variation of aquatic plants grown under ice.
Which is best? I don't know. There needs to be detailed engineering studies comparing these options. I think the answer will depend on where the Mars base is built. If it built in the far North, then an above ground greenhouse will produce precious little for at least half of a Martian year. If the cost of growing food is dominated by direct energy cost, then the above ground greenhouse may have an advantage relatively close to the equator. This is because waste heat is cheap, whilst electricity is expensive. The answer also depends on what we are growing. There is evidence to suggest that rye grass grows well at pressure 70mbar and wheat grows well in a 200mbar oxygen rich atmosphere. Low pressure reduces greenhouse structural cost. Micro-algae can be stored in an insulated tank and released into external panels only when the sun provides optimum insolation. Such systems require far less heating and less capital cost as well. Detailed economic assessments are needed to tell us which methods work best for each circumstance.
Last edited by Calliban (Today 10:22:10)

I see what you are thinking.

But if only 1,000,000 people on Mars, then of course the whole planet does not have to be embedded in ice gardens.

I would think that the Mariner Rift Valley might be a good place to start, if it works out that it is as we think it might be.

Then the Mid-Latitude, ice sheets.

At some point orbital power plants could perhaps send various kinds of extra energy to higher latitudes, including reflected light.

Possibly forcing Mars to have an approximately equal amount of energy at all latitudes. And so, ice would redistribute itself approximately equally. Then too, it may be that there would be no place for CO2 to condense long term.

I am sort of heating in that direction, but for 1,000,000 people, certainly humans can pick and choose a few favorable spots.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-29 12:54:46)

Void · 2022-07-30 10:41:31

Thinking about it, a probable key to success is to get a lot of economic gain, which requires technological competency, from bulk low grade materials, fashioned in to usefulness.

So I am interested in the ice chambers apparently suggested by Dr. Zubrin as communicated by Calliban.

In conjunction to that, I also see the value of sedimentary, relatively soft bedrock below the ice.

And then another trick is to manufacture a dry regolith plug. This item would be a hole in the ice that you created all the way down to bedrock and then filled with dry regolith. This would allow you to communicate very hot fluids down into caverns in the bedrock, without melting icy permafrost.

So then by very hot I do mean really hot fluids. Various methods would be available.

So, then you can keep the ice chambers relatively cold, and control the sag and perhaps upthrust of the ice bounding the ice cavern with air pressure and temperature.

Perhaps this involves at least three transparency devices. A "Bonnet" device can stabilize the ice on the top of the chamber by pressure and temperature stability. In my case I suggest pancake shaped water/ice balloons above the ice of the chamber proper.

Then the "Ice Liner" which would be a balloon that is between the cavern walls of the ice chamber and the air within.

Then the environment tenting which would possibly be tents on a frame, or inflated bubbles, on the floor of the caverns.

The floor would likely be regolith.

So, then the interiors of the tents could be various in character. For trees, crops, or aquiculture.

Solar or nuclear sources having heated thermal reservoirs in the caves in the bedrock below the ice layer, could provide controlled heating.

Then we need a heat rejection method. Possibly the solar collecting devices at times doubling as radiators.

Certainly, more will be needed for testing and adapting, but I think this looks pretty good already.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-30 10:53:19)

Void · 2022-07-31 07:50:53

One of the things that interests me the morning is Bioplastics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioplastic
Quote:

Bioplastics are plastic materials produced from renewable biomass sources, such as vegetable fats and oils, corn starch, straw, woodchips, sawdust, recycled food waste, etc. Some bioplastics are obtained by processing directly from natural biopolymers including polysaccharides (e.g. starch, cellulose, ...See more

An interesting thing would in fact be a low-pressure high productivity, method where a "Bonnet" dome using the ambient air pressure of Mars could also be pressurized just a bit more that than.

It may be reasonable to expect that a pool of water within would develop an ice layer. The top of that ice layer could be much colder than the water below the ice. Still, it may be sensible to place a flat film on top of the ice to discourage evaporation from the ice.

Salt ices and fresh ice have different characteristics. Salt ice forms brine channels which would allow microbes to get further up in the ice column. Salt ice is also more flexible.

This is then a greenhouse where the ice is yet another insulating material that is wanted to also have transparency.

In the case of fresh water the water just below the ice might be 32 degF, and water perhaps 6-9 feet below that could be 39 degF.

(0 degC to 3.88888889 degC)

I am supposing a similar situation for salt water which does not have salt gradients.

But with salt gradients and a suppression of mixing processes such as wind and waves, it would probably be easy to use salt gradients and get the temperature a bit higher.

So, then without resorting to yet another plastic film at the bottom of the water, you may have an environment which may suit some photosynthesis.

Query: "Algae in the polar seas"

https://www.nwf.org/Home/Magazines/Nati … 20recently.

I like this quote and it's terms:

In polar seas, algae can be pelagic (blooming in open waters), benthic (living on the sea floor) or sympagic (blooming in or on ice). Sympagic sea-ice algae pack more fats and bloom several weeks earlier than their cousins, but their relative importance to the food web has been a mystery until recently.

Pelagic, Benthic, Sympagic. Very good!

Images: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Al … HoverTitle

I am sure that all of them will be useful on Mars.

Query: "benthic algae of the northern seas"

https://www.bing.com/search?q=benthic+a … 6d07f139c9
Quote:

Benthic algae - Polarpedia
https://polarpedia.eu › en › benthic-algae
Benthic algae. Algae is a term for a diverse group of organisms living in the ocean. Benthic algae usually cover hard bottoms from the seashore down to 40 metres depth. Below that level, insufficient sunlight hampers their growth. …

Surprised, 40 Meters, maybe 20 Meters on Mars as for less sunlight per unit of area, if no Heliostats used

Images: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=be … RE&first=1

However if possible maybe "Sympagic" of types that cling to the undersides of ice would work well.

Query: "Sympagic algae of the northern seas"

That did not work well.

Query: "Algae that grow on the bottom of ice"

https://www.livescience.com/27141-melti … algae.html
Picture Quote: https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/aegtx … 024-80.jpg

I wonder what happens if you saturate the water with nutrients?

A wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_algae

Fresh water is likely to be different. Worth a look, I will suppose, but I anticipate that they would be a lesser amount. It is very hard to study for things that grow on the bottoms of tundra ponds, as mostly people are interested in those that grow into the air and can be in gardens for decorations.

From post #392:

I stumbled into this this morning:
https://biopharma.co.uk/bps/home/
Quote: (It is a useful chart) https://biopharma.co.uk/blog/2015/03/30 … re-of-ice/
Part of their business seems to be freeze drying things. As it happens in places Mars is a natural freeze dryer.
And I am now again on the path of creating large solar collectors mostly out of ice and water, and some transparent vapor barriers and a few other accessories.
Quote:
Metric    Imperial
Temp.    Pressure    Temp.    Pressure
°C    mbar    °F    torr
0    6.108    32    4.581376
-1    5.623    30.2    4.217596
-2    5.173    28.4    3.880068
I was thinking about sea water, which I read is 3.5% salt, and freezes at 28.4 degF. (~=2 degC)
Lake Vida is a different lake than Lake Vanda. Lake Vida is extremely salty and very cold, yet microbes grow in it at ~-13 degC I believe.

I think that it will be very possible to have ice where the top is quite cold, sufficiently where the vapor pressure will not be a big problem.

So, then this suggests that cold water aquiculture may be relatively easy to implement on Mars.

So, this could be one way to grow bulk biomass to make bioplastics, (And other things), and some algae are food worthy as well.

So, it might feed on itself. More biomass, more bioplastics, more aquaculture, more biomass.

Probably gardening would be done by robots.

It is also not against possibility to have open water ponds, but then your "Bonnet Domes" have to hold more pressure. Even so, if it can be done then it may be that even more plants would be available for foods and materials creation.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-31 08:37:23)

Void · 2022-07-31 09:58:01

Some more material about the just prior post #416.

Robert Dyke has previously supplied us with a notion on the lower pressure limits to grow vascular plant (Land Plant) crops.

I believe it is about 80 mBar, which is too low for shirt sleeve humans. The plants seem to suffer from dehydration at lower pressures, and I presume that their tissues are in danger of being disrupted by boiling. I think I am approximately correct.

https://efbce.fluxus.org/did-green-alga … 0diffusion.

Ask a silly question: "Did green algae have stomata?
Last Update: May 30, 2022"

Quote:

Did green algae have stomata?
Last Update: May 30, 2022
This is a question our experts keep getting from time to time. Now, we have got the complete detailed explanation and answer for everyone, who is interested!
Why is there no stomata in algae?
In their marine home, algae had no need of stomata to obtain the CO2 they needed – CO2 can enter cells submerged in water by simple diffusion. ... To grow to this size, ferns needed both vascular tissue (a plumbing system) to transport water and food around the plant and a way of taking up CO2 from the atmosphere.
Do green plants stomata?
The stomata are most common on green aerial parts of plants, particularly the leaves. ... The aerial parts of some chlorophyll-free land plants (Monotropa, Neottia) and roots have no stomata as a rule, but rhizomes have such structures (Esau, 1965, p. 158). Stomata occur on some submerged aquatic plants and not on others.

So, then sea water freezes at about 28.4 degF. (-2 degC)

The vapor pressure/boiling point for -2 degC is ~5.173 mBar. So, even at typical Martian air pressure ~5.5 mBar, not boiling.

But it seems likely to me that at mid to low latitudes, ice would be unstable even in the ground without a bit more air pressure. I am going to guess that the Martian air pressure for most aquaculture would be ~9 mBar or more.

If we use a dome bonnet of plastic transparency, and inflate it, at minimum it has to have enough differential additive pressure to keep the dome inflated. And then you are going to likely have a layer of ice on simulated sea water.

It is approximately true that 1 foot of ice on Mars will have approximately the weight of 9/10 of a foot of water. But sea water is typically 3.5% salt so it would weight a bit more. Sometimes using excessive precision is silly and an obstruction to deriving a desired estimate.

1 foot of fresh water on Mars is approximately 10 mBar. Let's just say we might have a ice layer between 1 foot and 8 feet. The thicker the ice the more it will attenuate sunlight though.

*Just a note, I think that it might be considered to create a unit of pressure for Mars based on the pressure of 1 foot of water or ice. Not sure yet. But in a nod to the Metric system, maybe have 10 subdivisions not 12. I did say that I worked in metrology. For Mars, this unit may be very important for understanding how to work with water and ice in a .38 gravitational field.

100 Mars feet would approximately equal one Mars Bar

So, I have kind of a notion that the pressure of the water column where it meets the bottom of ice might be about 12 + 10 to 12 + 80, where I have presumed that the top of the ice will have 12 mBar imposed on it inside of the bonnet dome.

So, maybe 22 mBar to 92 mBar depending on the thickness of the ice. And yes I have not corrected for ice being 9/10's as heavy as fresh water. So, what, we are looking for an approximation. At some point in rocket science you have to dump the estimates and get real accurate, but probably not for this, until you turn it into a math related science.

There is then the problem of Henry's law(s) for gasses dissolved in a solution, which I only approximately understand but perhaps my awareness is sufficient.

Cold water holds more gas than warm. It is possible that at 22 mBars, there would not be sufficiency for the dissolved gasses, but I am going to guess it is more likely not to matter that much. Certainly at 92 mBars it should be OK.

The game here would be to pump Martian atmosphere into the ponds, and then let biology consume it and also release Oxygen. The result should be a mix of Oxygen, Nitrogen, and Argon, and biomass.

If this all works then what you have created is a wet bio-solar cell.

And having an approximate air mixture, and biomass, you could likely extract hydrocarbons from the biomass along with food, and even Hydrogen.

Worth a try, I am thinking.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-31 10:20:56)

Void · 2022-07-31 10:54:25

So, then continuing with the last two posts, sea salt simulants made on Mars could become an important thing.

There is this: https://news.uchicago.edu/story/salt-de … ient-water

Not all salt mixtures may suit the garden. It may be that simulants will take some trouble to create.

Query: "Types of salts in sea water"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Types+of+ … 78834e218d

Specific response: https://manoa.hawaii.edu/exploringourfl … s-seawater

So to reduce the burden on early Martian society, I would think that experiments could be done on Earth for pond aquiculture in sea water simulants that might be possible to create on Mars. Exploring the effects of different mixtures, and the tolerance of living things to variations.

Who knows, maybe high latitude aquiculture may result from it here on Earth. Canada, Alaska, Siberia?

Query: "Salts in Martian soil"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Salts+in+ … c4fb938b0a

Specific Response: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 3581900415

So, anyway it is obvious that in the "Brewing" of sea salt simulants Perchlorates are not wanted in a food to Humans situation.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-31 11:15:32)

Void · 2022-08-01 06:55:15

So, for these ponds, likely a permafrost bottom will exist. In reality a ditch might be dug, and a long "Balloon" would be put into it. Then partly filled with sea water simulant. Then allowed to develop an ice layer on the surface of the water.

Of course there could be many other methods to grow biomass in bulk, but this is one that may pay. Thermal regulation of quantity of ice might be regulated with shading or adding light with Heliostats.

The device will need to be able to survive a global dust storm, where it might freeze solid.

The temperature of the water likely at 28.4 degF / -2 degC, it is less likely that fresh water permafrost would melt below it. Although ice below might sublimate, so I guess it might be good to have a thick dry sand bed below the plastic tube.

Some Seaweed farming does exist on Earth at this time, but not of an Artic ice pack habitat.

Query: "Nations that farm seaweed"

Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Nations+t … bc887a0518

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seaweed_f … 0fisheries.

So, seaweed farming exists, but typically the varieties need warmer water than exists in the Arctic Ocean.

Query: "Seaweed plants in the Arctic Ocean"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Seaweed+p … bc887a0518

Specific Response: https://sciencing.com/plants-arctic-ocean-6951567.html
Quote: "Arctic seaweed forests, arctic moss and phytoplankton are some of the most common plants you will find in the Arctic Ocean.

Arctic Seaweed Forests
While there may not be forests on land in the Arctic, there is a type of forest underwater. Kelp is a type of underwater seaweed that forms forests along the ocean floor."

Here is a freshwater item that could grow in simulated fresh water tundra ponds, Quote: "Arctic Moss
Though we normally think of moss as growing on land, there is also a type of moss that grows underwater. Arctic moss, or Calliergon giganteum, is an aquatic plan found on the bottom of tundra lake beds and in bogs. Like other mosses, arctic moss has tiny rootlets called rhizoids rather than normal roots, and these mosses don't have wood stems. Their tiny leaves are usually only one cell thick. Each plant is only able to grow one centimeter per year, and the shoots are able to live seven to nine years.

Living in a harsh, cold climate has its challenges, and arctic moss has adapted well. When arctic moss does grow underwater, it is protected from the strong freezing winds of the arctic tundra. Whenever the moss is not growing, it stores nutrients for the following year. This means that the moss can grow leaves more quickly the following spring once it is ready."

But it seems to be slow growing. But it might be useful for something. It could be possible that if it gets more light and nutrients it might grow faster.

As far as cultivating Kelp in a tank, that might be hard, as I think that they may need turbulence in the water, but maybe there are exceptions. Anyway it seems like it may be possible to have something that is like a land crop and not microbes.

I would also think that it might be possible to up the air pressure in a plastic bag terrarium and raise the temperature and grow varieties that are from somewhat warmer environments.

Even 80 millibar might work OK, with water then further pressurizing the plants.

I would wonder if these could be grown also under artificial lighting in underground enclosures.

If scaled up to be huge, perhaps surface installations could be put in old river bed channels. If kelps could be grown, then a surface pressure of 80 millibars, may still allow for a water compression deeper down, and it would be possible for a diver to swim. As most kelp grow in fairly cold water, really the air pressure might be dropped to a lower value than 80 millibars. Some kelps survive long winters so perhaps there is hope for surviving on Mars, even global dust storms.

I believe kelps are fast growing.

Done

Last edited by Void (2022-08-01 07:30:59)

Void · 2022-08-01 07:54:09

Now I am switching to Artificial Gravity as a sub topic. Both in orbit but also on the surface of Mars:

It is a cross section diagram. A vacuum chamber "A" allows an air pressure lower than the outside Martian ambient pressure. The water must be cold brine, to not boil.

The Disk "B" is where supplemental spin gravity is desired. Since Mars has .38 g, you only need an additional .62 g spin gravity to reach 1 g. So, the speed of the disk is not as much as would be needed for orbital spin gravity.

The disk and attachments are held up pneumatically by water/air buoyancy, "C", and magnetic levitation and stabilization methods "ML".

"D" allows passage to the underground even while the system is spinning.

The diagram is intended to offer notions of how to do this but when Mechanics and Engineers were done with it I am sure better can be done, For instance the volume of vacuum chamber "A" should be minimized, and it might also be covered with regolith to give radiation protection of ice if you want to let light it. In that case the ice has to have protection from vacuum issues It is something in progress.

This whole thing could also be completely underground in a cave in sandstone as an alternative.

I just wanted to demonstrate a possible way. I would love to see possible works/solutions for this from others.

I am still in favor of colonizing also the orbits of Mars, as Earth is going to have a Microgravity industrial base in orbits to produce special products, it would only make sense to do similar for Mars.

In the case of Mars we have a parent planet with only .38 g, and two small moons. This is much more convenient for orbital builds than is the Earth/Moon environments.

Done

Last edited by Void (2022-08-01 08:06:54)

Void · 2022-08-02 06:57:50

An alternative notion, using an air bearing and also some magnetic levitation.

This version is underground, perhaps in sandstone caves.

I am sure that there is a lot to learn to make anything like this practical and affordable, and useful.

I am doing examples as I would think that there are others out there who will eventually come up with better than what I present.

It might be that the Centrifuge will be constructed similar to an aircraft, but still have enough weight to make a pretty good seal at "E". The Junction of "E" and "C" might be lubricated with air, but who knows maybe grease?

The proportions of volumes should be set so that if "C" leaks air suddenly into "B", The quantity of air in "C" and "D" overpowers the vacuum in "B", and upon equalization, humans would not get bends and certainly not explosive decompression.

------

As I have said, I am interested in synthetic gravity in orbit of Mars, but the questions of relative cost, safety, and utility/benefits, will likely determine what the proportions of synthetic gravity quantity of living space, would be Orbital vs. Surface & Subsurface.

In some cases, robots like the Tesla Bots, might also be distributed according to potential advantages in the different places.

We think about using Starship SSTO and others SSTO for Mars, to Earth, but what about lifting mass to Martian Orbits?
And then consider the major bulk of materials available from the Martian moons. And then consider the value of Orbital energy sources to beam down to Mars.

Done

Last edited by Void (2022-08-02 07:10:34)

tahanson43206 · 2022-08-02 07:14:32

For Void re #421

Would you be willing to provide an overhead view?

The complete vision is in your mind, and you have kindly provided a "camera view" from an angle, so I'm hoping there might be orthogonal views available as well.

This work of yours seems worth supporting/encouraging, at least at this early stage.

(th)

Void · 2022-08-02 09:21:04

I'm inclined to think that would be a poor way to communicate it.

Just imagine a Flying Sauser in an upper cave on a hollow column as the central support. Some mag lev methods additionally can react fast to sudden changes to the distribution of mass inside of the spinning Sauser.

They might also do assistive lifting.

And the hollow column has a passage that leads to a lower cave system.

I do not assert that this is for prime time. This is a crude start, and the best hope is that other people can put me to shame with better methods.

I have probably mentioned it before, but when doing Calibrations and adjustments, to resort to precision thinking at the start is likely to leave you with no latitude to bring something into what it needs to be to be of value.

Now and then you can cheat a little, if high precision is not required to "Get it done", but usually approximations are appropriate to start something out.

You do not paint a house and then build it.

And don't take this as a negative response.. I appreciate that you took the time to inquire. I think that in this case using word pictures and Spatial Relations Intelligence, we could hope to ballpark this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spatial_i … sychology)
Quote:

Spatial intelligence (psychology)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigationJump to search
For the business model, see Spatial intelligence (business method).
Spatial intelligence is an area in the theory of multiple intelligences that deals with spatial judgment and the ability to visualize with the mind's eye. It is defined by Howard Gardner as a human computational capacity that provides the ability or mental skill to solve spatial problems of navigation, visualization of objects from different angles and space, faces or scenes recognition, or to notice fine details. Gardner further explains that Spatial Intelligence could be more effective to solve problems in areas related to realistic, thing-oriented, and investigative occupations. This capability is a brain skill that is also found in people with visual impairment. As researched by Gardner, a blind person can recognize shapes in a non-visual way. The spatial reasoning of the blind person allows them to translate tactile sensations into mental calculations of length and visualizations of form.
Spatial intelligence is one of the nine intelligences on Howard Gardner's theory of multiple intelligences, each of which is composed of a number of separate sub capacities. An intelligence provides the ability to solve problems or create products that are valued in a particular culture. Each intelligence is a neurally based computational system that is activated by internal or external information. Intelligences are always an interaction between biological proclivities and the opportunities for learning that exist in a culture. The application of this theory in the general practice covers a product range from scientific theories to musical compositions to successful political campaigns.[1] Gardner suggested a general correspondence between each capability with an occupational role in the workplace, for examples: for those individuals with linguistic intelligence he pointed journalists, speakers and trainers; scientists, engineers, financiers and accountants on logical-mathematical intelligence; sales people, managers, teachers and counselors on the personal intelligence; athletes, contractors and actors on bodily-kinesthetic intelligence; taxonomists, ecologists and veterinarians on naturalistic intelligence; clergy and philosophers on existential intelligence and designers, architects and taxi drivers, astronauts, airplane pilots and race car drivers and stunt men on spatial intelligence.[1]

My opinion is that this is as they seem to indicate, using your mind's eye to touch things like with your fingers, in your imagination.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-08-02 09:29:42)

tahanson43206 · 2022-08-02 10:37:14

For Void Re Post #423

Thank you for the courtesy of your reply.

It seems you are unaware that power mental powers such as yours are not gifted to everyone.

Your supposition that they ** are ** seems (to me at least) well worth re-considering.

All I asked for was a simple top down view of the structure you showed us in "camera" view (off at an angle)

If my use of the term orthogonal was off-putting, it tells me you might enjoy learning how to program and operate a 3D printer.

You could put your ideas into hardware form (plastic models) and set them on a shelf.

Should you decide to pursue learning about 3D Printers, and the software that prepares instructions for them, we have several members of the forum who have ventured into the arena.

(th)

Void · 2022-08-02 17:27:03

This is an attempt to satisfy a request to have some type of "Top View", of the drawing in post #421.

That's about what I can do.

Done

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