Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Void · 2022-07-16 21:11:30

I cannot vouch for how real this is, but it is worth a study perhaps.

CO2 Battery:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ne … &FORM=VIRE

https://energydome.com/co2-battery/#:~: … sformation.

Of course if it has value then it will help the Earth.

I am thinking it could be interesting for Mars, where perhaps the temperature conditions may be helpful.

Obviously if you are going to Para Terraform, you will need energy storage methods.

https://interestingengineering.com/carb … -and-water
Quote:

The world's carbon dioxide battery is here and needs only steel and water
And it is 50% cheaper than lithium-based batteries
Ameya Paleja
By Ameya Paleja
Jun 09, 2022 (Updated: Jun 10, 2022 06:52 EDT)

It is really starting to look like it may be that in the long run technology is the path to redemption, not a deindustrialization with feudal lords and ladies.

I am not sure how they store CO2 as a liquid at room temperature, that does not seem right, but maybe there is a trick they are not talking about.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-16 21:18:47)

Void · 2022-07-17 07:57:00

So, following up on the previous post:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Th … M%3DHDRSC3
Quote:

MIT scientists discover how to fully reverse climate change
YouTube · 12,000+ views · 7/13/2022 · by The Electric Viking

A terraforming tool? Yes.

Practical? I don't know.

Worth a look? I think so.

-----

So, that is interesting. Expend wealth, to treat the Earth's climate, and then if it works it produces wealth.

I would be more inclined to seek to generate power with any mass delivered to "L1" Earth<>Sun.

The trick would possibly be useful for Mercury, Venus, and Mars. It would at least a way to alter the environments of those planets.

I include Mars, as, I think it might turn out to be valuable to balance the thermal conditions of the Planet to some extent.

It is felt that the Axis of Mars is variable, and that at times the polar areas would be warmer than the equator. That situation does not exist at this time, but by use of energy redistribution, a similar climate might be reproduced, in my opinion, which might simulate to some extent a different polar axis.

The L1 notion might be OK, or an equatorial ring of orbital objects. Probably both.

So, the equator would be shaded by this on average more than the poles, and energy from the space platforms could be beamed to the preferred locations. Beamed could mean mirrors, microwaves, or lasers, maybe something else.

Efficiency not being 100%, then Mars as a whole would get colder, but the heat would be better balanced between poles and equator.

So, you would want to use things like Greenhouse Gasses, and Albedo to counter that thermal loss and bring it to the level possible and desired.

In this scheme, it seems likely that a major objective would be to keep all the CO2 in the atmosphere, as a gas and not on the surface as ice.

Another objective would be to redistribute water by Sublimation/Snow Condensation. The idea would be to transfer polar ice to the equator as snow. This would be an albedo tool, as it would tend to cool the equator, and perhaps even warm the poles. Other methods to change the albedo of the polar areas to darker shades might be employed.

Perhaps covering the ice with solar power equipment, or perhaps the old idea of covering the reflective ice with dirt.

Surface melting might be avoided, as it would tend to clean the dirt off of the ice, and also, running water tends to incorporate atmosphere into the regolith.

Although there might be covered canals to redistribute water, particularly any melt water, for the most part irrigation of the dry areas would be done by using energy redistribution to move ice from one location to another.

It is possible that if a level of ozone were to develop high in the atmosphere, then primitive life could take hold in places on the surface. Microbes, and Lichen perhaps.

This would be a very good world for humans, because keep in mind that there would be lots of habitat in orbit, and with the atmosphere at twice the current value the radiation problem would be greatly reduced.

Human habitats could exist on the surface and under the surface, under ice, sandstone, and in Salt Domes, if there are some.

A magnetic field would then also be added to reduce atmosphere losses to space.

Greenhouse gasses will also help to redistribute heat from the Equator to the Poles by a thicker atmosphere, and to reduce the losses of heat from the polar areas, into space.

So, doing all of this could very likely quell the dust storms, at least the global ones. That is my opinion.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-17 08:28:52)

Void · 2022-07-18 09:08:57

I have taken an interest in the insitu construction notions of others. Now I have an adaptation of my own.

How NASA plans to 3D print a Mars colony! "The Space Race"

https://www.bing.com/search?q=How+NASA+ … 5e0e5ba1a6

https://blog.prv-engineering.co.uk/3d-p … 0solutions.

3D printing with moon dust

https://makenica.com/3d-printing-with-moon-dust/

Plants that provide glue

https://news.lafayette.edu/2019/09/29/g … of-plants/

This one is about aquiculture so then interesting for this post.

Glue from Seaweed: https://komatsu-washi.com/en/news/%e3%8 … e%20summer.

Seaweed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYnGAAU-05Y

Same video, just want to make sure it is available.
This is a very valuable information source for Mars, I feel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYnGAAU-05Y

--------

I am having trouble with Imgur and my paint, so no drawings for now, I will try to do verbal.

I am uncomfortable with the typical 3D printed habitat notions put forward so far. A problem I see is that if you are going to be where there a lot of water ice, then as depicted, these buildings which would be heavy would be built on top of wet permafrost, which is likely to be unstable.

I got into Imgur, but now my computer will not let me into the version of paint I am familiar with so I guess there will be a learning curve.

So, drawings later.

Alright, I have indicated under ice canals, and also gravity batteries. Historically I liked the idea of lakes and seas created by simple thawing. Those lakes and seas would not create a stable environment though I feel.

The great hope would be to find a significant ice slab, that is on top of sedimentary rock, or even maybe lava tubes.

The ice slabs in the "Temperate Zone", are about 300' thick or I think 90 Meters. For the ice in Valles Marinaris, I don't know what the underground nature of this ice is.

So, the first thing is to dig a large hole, remove all the water ice and loose regolith, get down to bedrock. Then build a wall probably circular inside the pit. The wall is to be of regolith and the glue might be cement from Perchlorates, or some type of glue. The wall would have a nominal height of ~the same as the normal surface at the edges of the hole.

This then would be like a circular swimming pool, ~300 feet deep, and a circumference of perhaps ~300 feet. Water is not added yet.

Now then pack Martian soil outside of the circular pool walls: https://www.industrytap.com/martian-soi … ngredients.
Quote:

They discovered that Mars soil can be compressed into bricks stronger than even steel-reinforced concrete. Scientists found the way Martian soil reacts to being put under pressure, and one can craft bricks from the soil with the pressure equivalent of a hammer blow, without the need for ovens or any extra ingredients.

Now the inside of the pool probably needs some kind of watertight liner for the inside walls, maybe the bottom as well.

From SeaDragon, post #167 of "Index» Human missions» Construction technology for Mars?"
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=8116&p=7
Quote:

SeaDragon
Banned
From: Merry Old England
Registered: 2020-07-25
Posts: 32
Email
louis,
Casey Handmer is amazing but I'd like to add a technical fix to that fluorine access problem for ETFE.
The call for ETFE is based on the impression that UV damage would destroy other types of plastic which is not necessarily true - it's mostly the production of oxygen based free radicals that causes the issue (for quick reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UV_degradation ). If you can stop oxygen from inside diffusing into the plastic then UV degradation is greatly reduced and the inclusion of hindered amine light stabilisers (HALS) as copolymers, even making up as little as 0.25% of the total plastic, this can be greatly reduced yet further.
So:
- With a thin layer of something like poly(ethyl vinyl alcohol), usually written EVOH, the majority of oxygen transmission into a plastic habitat skin can be stopped
- A small amount of HALS copolymers stops initial free radical compounds made just after UV absorption in the plastic from propagating and leads to spectacular decreases in corrosion rates before any oxygen that does get through can make things worse.
With these fixes we can just use PET or a similarly cheap and easily produced plastic with no crazy elements like fluorine needed at all.
If we reinforce with basalt fibre (very nearly as good as Keflar but far far cheaper than Keflar) instead of Keflar or equivalent we'd be able to build this sort of thing at an industrial scale using only the resources we have on hand + a few low mass imported extras like HALS copolymers, accounting for perhaps 400 tonnes of plastic per 1 tonne of HALS or something.
Last edited by SeaDragon (2020-08-01 09:14:35)
Offline

A very good contribution from that member.

So, now a transparent balloon lid for the pool.

Then to fill it with ice water or very cold brine perhaps.

Prior to filling the pool would be injected with compressed Martian air to pressurize it a bit, but the needed pressure in addition to Martian ambient to keep the liquids from boiling and freezing would be relatively small.

A guess is that the bottom of the tank would have a water column pressure of ~2.7 bar, if the water is fresh. If it is highly saline, then the pressure would be considerably more.

Going with high salinity, then the bottom of the tank can be a heat reservoir while the top might have an ice layer on top of it, preferably transparent. I am hoping that this can be compatible with the ice slabs, as the construction methods I suggested indicated a packed relatively dry regolith around the pool walls that should serve to insulate thermally. Perhaps some further innovations where the packed regolith could have air ducts in it that would draw heat off by natural convection might be included.

Well, this is a nice article about solar heat ponds, and it has a nice drawing also, very fortunate.
https://www.ecomena.org/solar-pond/#:~: … the%20pond.
Image Quote: https://www.ecomena.org/wp-content/uplo … r-pond.png

So, then the bottom of the pond could be very hot. It is not only that sunlight will warm the pond, but hot water solar could also be associated, so you could bring the temperatures up pretty far.
Quote:

Solar Ponds in the Dead Sea have a certain characteristic which allows them to keep heat energy, and that is the increase in salinity with increased depth. Accordingly, density also increases with depth, forcing the warm water to stay lower down because of the salts. Next, the heat which the water has absorbed in the last, salt-saturated layer whose temperature can reach between 85-90°C – moves turbines, thus generating clean, renewable, environmentally-friendly electrical energy.

And you could have another pool of brine where you store very cold brine, to assist in the power generation method.

Since our version may have a ice layer on top of it, it may resemble some types of Antarctic Dry Valley Lake.

Lake Vanda: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Vanda
Quote:

Lake Vanda
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigationJump to search
Lake Vanda
Landsat 7 image
Landsat 7 image
Location of Lake VandaLocation of Lake VandaLake Vanda
Location Wright Valley, Victoria Land, Ross Dependency, Antarctica
Coordinates 77°31′47″S 161°34′32″ECoordinates: 77°31′47″S 161°34′32″E
Lake type Hypersaline lake
Primary inflows Onyx River
Bartley Stream
Clark Stream
Meserve Stream
Primary outflows none
Basin countries Ross Dependency
Max. length 8 km (5.0 mi)
Max. width 2 km (1.2 mi)
Surface area 5.2 km2 (2.0 sq mi)
Average depth 30.8 m (101 ft)
Max. depth 75 m (246 ft)
Water volume 160 million cubic metres (130,000 acre⋅ft)
Surface elevation 143 metres (469 ft)
Settlements Vanda Station
Lake Vanda Hut
References [1]
Lake Vanda is a lake in Wright Valley, Victoria Land, Ross Dependency, Antarctica. The lake is 5 km (3.1 mi) long and has a maximum depth of 69 m (226 ft).[2] On its shore, New Zealand maintained Vanda Station from 1968 to 1995. Lake Vanda is a hypersaline lake with a salinity more than ten times that of seawater[3] and more than the salinity of the Dead Sea. Lake Vanda is also meromictic, which means that the deeper waters of the lake don't mix with the shallower waters.[4] There are three distinct layers of water ranging in temperature from 23 °C (73 °F) on the bottom to the middle layer of 7 °C (45 °F) and the upper layer ranges from 4–6 °C (39–43 °F).[5] It is only one of the many saline lakes in the ice-free valleys of the Transantarctic Mountains. The longest river of Antarctica, Onyx River, flows West, inland, into Lake Vanda. There is a meteorological station at the mouth of the river.

For our system though higher temperature storage is likely available. Either you heat the water/brine with a solar thermal apparatus, or you send extra sunlight into the top of this using a mirror system including heliostats.

The top layers of Lake Vanda have Oxygen, the lower layers are anoxic. Algae grows in the top layers, but it is starved for nutrients. That is a problem we could fix, so if you wanted to grow certain types of algae, you may.

It should be possible to create endless numbers of these pools, some as heat storage/collection devices, and some as very cold brine radiator topped devices.

In some cases a "Hot" pool would be kept hostile to algae, to prevent it building up on the surfaces of devices you would put in the pools.

These could be water filled, aquaculture bags, or air filled terrariums, that could be moved into the sunlight part of the time but when planting them or harvesting them you would perhaps have a diving bell to bring them into.

Special space suits would be used as diving suits. They would allow a person to move to various parts of the water column from an entry point, upward to service items in the water.

The entry point would perhaps be somewhere in the water column between a pressure of 1/3 bar to 1 bar, approximation.
So, bends should not be a problem. Maybe something looking a little like a SpaceX flight suit, with a mobile robotic consumable's module hooked to it. If a person passed out the robot might be able to move that human down to the diving bell.

Well, that is a pretty long post, I think I will end it.

Except that there may be a problem to solve where the ice layer if it repeatedly freezes and thaws, might damage the pool walls. I would think that problem could have treatments and solutions.

And also, you would have caves in sedimentary rocks under the pools, and also some of the pools might have sunlit air-filled enclosures for humans at the 1/3 to 1 bar level, and so there could be good sunlight. Especially if no organisms were growing in that pool such as Algae or Fungi. Spacenut once mentioned something like that, a room with an aquarium on the roof.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-18 11:14:39)

Void · 2022-07-18 12:51:34

So, I think that these pools could be made much larger, and also of different shapes, even a canal shape.

It may be that a variation on the plan would be to have transparent diving bells. That might be possible.

We have seen this before, just connect many domes into a line or plain.
http://www.nemosgarden.com/
Videos of Nemos Gardens:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ne … &FORM=VDRE

You might actually anchor the edges to the bottom and have a hill inside so that you can walk.

The lighting could be augmented by local mirrors/heliostats, and also orbital ones.
This would be a case where orbital mirrors deliver additional power, not just warm up parts of the planet.

Presuming an installation in the northern plains, you could have a stack of mirrors north of the warm pool and south of a cold pool.
The structure that holds up the mirrors may also serve as a radiator method if the supports were tubular.

There are many possibilities.

As for farmland, I am guessing that 1/3 to 1/2 of the Martian surface could be converted to this method, which I believe might be highly productive.

Over time water would be moved from high latitudes to lower latitudes where desired, by canal, pipelines, or induced sublimation in the polar areas and induced snowfall at lower latitudes.

How much water is there on Mars?
https://www.soulask.com/how-much-water- … ck%20water.
Quote:

Researchers believe that at present, the total water resources of the Red Planet are approximately 65 million cubic kilometers, which could well be enough to cover the surface of Mars with a layer of 35 meters thick water.

114.829396 feet.

Obviously if only 1/3 to 1/2 of the Martian surface would be occupied by pools, then those pools could be ~70-105 meters deep on average.

And propellants for Rockets and surface vehicles? Well just grow propellants in these pools. Extract Hydrocarbons from the vegetation.

Nuclear could have it's place as well, for instance using up the Fossil cold of the ice caps and then producing liquid water to flow towards the equator.

In the case of the Southern Hemisphere, you might get an energy bump by flowing the water downhill to produce Hydroelectric power.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-18 13:13:59)

Void · 2022-07-18 13:24:49

It is possible that water clarity could be very high, allowing sunlight to penetrate further.

The Balloon top of course will accumulate dust and some good cleaning methods will be needed for that to not be a show stopper.

Done.

Calliban · 2022-07-19 04:25:04

I think 3D printing has both strengths and weaknesses. The main strength appears to be that it allows fabrication of multiple different components in small batches, in applications where you cannot reap economies of scale from things like injection molding, which would require retooling for different components. That makes it invaluable to a Mars colony in all sorts of applications, as scale economies will be lacking for most things and the supply lines from Earth are very long and very costly.

On the other hand, 3D printing builds components in layers. Depending on what you are making, this may result in structural weakness due to poor cohesion between layers. In situations where there is enough scale to allow use of injection molding, 3D printing looks less desirable. This may be the case for relatively simple structural elements on Mars that will be built in large numbers. If we want 100,000 identical structural elements made from cast basalt or cast iron, then we don't need a lot of retooling between batches. It is hard to make a case for 3D printing in this case, versus just casting the product in a mold.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-07-19 04:27:03)

Void · 2022-07-19 05:50:15

OK, I do agree we would want the most and best for the least effort. I guess it will be natural to select what is the most productive.

I am also considering the value of sending additional sunlight from Geosynchronous Orbit to these "Farms".

Quote:

If we want 100,000 identical structural elements made from cast basalt or cast iron, then we don't need a lot of retooling between batches. It is hard to make a case for 3D printing in this case, versus just casting the product in a mold.

So, I am imagining 100,000 ponds adjacent to each other like a honeycomb.

Could this be a sufficiently large target for an orbital mirror(s), to reroute orbital sunlight to?
Here I am looking for added productivity. If you built the farmland, the surface conditions of Mars as natural will supply less sunlight than the farmland could use.

While the ponds will be "Wet" solar collectors with greenhouse potentials for plants, also in-between ponds, could be solar collection equipment more familiar.

And when I talk about this, I am not asserting that it would be the only way to do things, but instead I am seeking to examine the potential(s).

I understand that plants can only use a maximum amount of sunlight, but the stuff coming from orbit would to a large extent come in at night, I believe. Some plants do rather well with very long days, for instance in farming in Alaska.

17 hour days in the summer: https://farmflavor.com/alaska/foods-gro … mid-August.

This would also be a treatment for the very long winters in the "temperate" areas of Mars where major ice slabs appear to exist.

So, you may know that I do favor alternate ways to deliver bulk freight to Mars, such as electric rockets, solar sails, solar wind magnetic sails. These then to deliver freight from the Earth/Moon, to Martian orbits.

Query: Geosynchronous Orbit, Mars: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Areosynch … identified.
Quote:

The areosynchronous orbits (ASO) are the synchronous orbits for artificial satellites around the planet Mars. They are the martian equivalent of the geosynchronous orbits (GSO) on the Earth. The prefix areo- derives from Ares, the ancient Greek god of war and counterpart to the Roman god Mars, with whom the planet was identified. The modern Greek word for Mars is Άρης (Áris).
As with all synchronous orbits, an areosynchronous orbit has an orbital period equal in length to the primary's sidereal day. A satellite in areosynchronous orbit does not necessarily maintain a fixed position in the sky as seen by an observer on the surface of Mars; however, such a satellite will return to the same apparent position every Martian day.
The orbital altitude required to maintain an areosynchonous orbit is approximately 17,000 kilometres (11,000 mi). If a satellite in areosynchonous orbit were to be used as a communication relay link, it "would experience communications ranges of 17,000 to 20,000 kilometres (11,000 to 12,000 mi)" to various points on the visible Martian surface.[1]
An areosynchronous orbit that is equatorial (in the same plane as the equator of Mars), circular, and prograde (rotating about Mars's axis in the same direction as the planet's surface) is known as an areostationary orbit (AEO). To an observer on the surface of Mars, the position of a satellite in AEO would appear to be fixed in a constant position in the sky. The AEO is analogous to a geostationary orbit (GEO) about Earth.
Although no satellites currently occupy areosynchronous or areostationary orbits, some scientists foresee a future telecommunications network for the exploration of Mars.[2]

I believe that the orbit would be inside of that of Deimos, and outside of that of Phobos and of course take one Martian day.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deimos_(moon)
Quote:

Deimos /ˈdaɪməs/ (systematic designation: Mars II)[10] is the smaller and outermost of the two natural satellites of Mars, the other being Phobos. Deimos has a mean radius of 6.2 km (3.9 mi) and takes 30.3 hours to orbit Mars.[5] Deimos is 23,460 km (14,580 mi) from Mars, much farther than Mars's other moon, Phobos.[11] It is named after Deimos, the Ancient Greek god and personification of dread and terror, and who is also a son of Ares and Aphrodite and the twin brother of Phobos.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobos_(moon)
Quote:

Phobos (/ˈfoʊbɒs/; systematic designation: Mars I) is the innermost and larger of the two natural satellites of Mars,[8] the other being Deimos. Both moons were discovered in 1877 by American astronomer Asaph Hall. Phobos is named after the Greek deity Phobos, a son of Ares (Mars) and twin brother of Deimos.
Phobos is a small, irregularly shaped object with a mean radius of 11 km (7 mi).[5] Phobos orbits 6,000 km (3,700 mi) from the Martian surface, closer to its primary body than any other known planetary moon. It is so close that it orbits Mars much faster than Mars rotates, and completes an orbit in just 7 hours and 39 minutes. As a result, from the surface of Mars it appears to rise in the west, move across the sky in 4 hours and 15 minutes or less, and set in the east, twice each Martian day.
Phobos is one of the least reflective bodies in the Solar System, with an albedo of just 0.071. Surface temperatures range from about −4 °C (25 °F) on the sunlit side to −112 °C (−170 °F) on the shadowed side.[9] The defining surface feature is the large impact crater, Stickney, which takes up a substantial proportion of the moon's surface. In November 2018, astronomers concluded that the many grooves on Phobos were caused by boulders ejected from the asteroid impact that created Stickney, and rolled around on the surface of the moon.[10][11] An alternative theory is that the grooves are stretch marks caused by tidal forces.
Images and models indicate that Phobos may be a rubble pile held together by a thin crust that is being torn apart by tidal interactions.[12] Phobos gets closer to Mars by about 2 centimetres per year, and it is predicted that within 30 to 50 million years it will either collide with the planet or break up into a planetary ring.[9]

An interesting thing is that it might be possible to build mirrors from Lunar materials and fly them as sails to Mars, riding on photons.

Perhaps they could be sprayed onto a template that could be used over and over.

I guess I will again suggest that mirror method to transmit energy to the surface of Mars, would likely be easier than Microwave or Laser methods. Of course then you have to have the proper solar receiver on the surface of Mars, and the ability to aim the mirrors at it efficiently.

Supposing that 1/3 to 1/2 of the Martian surface were converted to solar collectors of various kinds, then orbital sunlight diverted to the surface locations brings the thermal input from the sun upwards towards that of Earth. (Potentially).

One part of the objective, farmland, then can be a great producer of Oxygen and organic matter, the organic matter among other things could be processed to produce greenhouse gasses and fuels.

Although I would expect spin gravity farms in the orbits of Mars, I think that this farming method on the surface of Mars, may be an easier way to develop a large life support system for humans not on Earth.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-19 06:25:16)

Void · 2022-07-19 07:15:16

I have always hated it when the people farmers have tried to hobble our space program with notions of "Mission to Earth".

But lets have a Mission to Earth!

In the last few posts, I have included the possibility of using orbital power stations, (Mirrors), to increase the energy density for created "Farmlands/Receivers, on the surface of Mars.

And now then the question what about Earth?

It is very possible that the Religious-Cultish branch of the "Greens" will flip out about this. They are ignorant people to a large extent so that is to be expeccted.

It could be possible that some kind of "Farmland" could be created in places sort of polar. But that is not my big push here.

I am interested in hooking up OTEC with Orbital Mirror power, and large rocket launches.
https://www.explainthatstuff.com/how-otec-works.html

Query: "The location near the equator where hurricanes do not happen"
Response: https://www.soest.hawaii.edu/GG/ASK/hur … 0initially.
Quote:

The Coriolis "force" is a maximum at the poles and zero at the equator.
Observations show that no hurricanes form within 5 degrees latitude of the equator. People argue that the Coriolis force is too weak there to get air to rotate around a low pressure rather than flow from high to low pressure, which it does initially.

Picture Quote: https://thumbor.forbes.com/thumbor/fit- … ide1-1.jpg

So being near the equator, these places may be favorable for launching materials to LEO, including propellants and perhaps CO2 and Water.

So, you might have an OTEC+Solar platform, in some proximity of a sea launch platform in this relatively safe weather zone.

Isaac Arthur, has said that the process of beaming energy down to Earth will in no way be a danger for overheating the Earth, such as greenhouse gasses are supposed to be.

So, can you shine an orbital mirror down on a very large OTEC platform and boost it's efficiency with the heat?

One problem I can see for OTEC in those locations is the need of a market and a product for that market. But manufacturing Oxygen and Methane with produced power, then can send those to the sea launch platforms to power rockets. Same for Hydro lox.

It may be very hard to get a safe and tight focus on the OTEC platform, even if it is very large, but the "Spilled" sunlight that would then enter the water would tend to further warm the water surrounding the OTEC platform.

That and the OTEC process itself cause warmed water to pancake outward on the surface horizontal, and that and the OTEC process will warm up water from lower layers and bring nutrients up. It is not sure that Iron would be included so you might want to add that as well.
The photosynthesis will produce food for fish, and along the way detritus will drop to the ocean floor, sequestering Carbon.

So green after all. I will need a shower to get the green off of me.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-19 07:40:04)

Void · 2022-07-19 17:40:28

From "Index» Interplanetary transportation» Basalt fiber" Post #22

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=5335

Quote:

I am interested in the possibility of making Anchors/Sinkers.
Probably tear drop shaped, with an eye like for a needle, at the tapered end.
I am afraid such might corrode/rust in water though.
I want to use it to anchor and/or counterpressure a net enclosing a transparent dome, such as Nemo's garden has, but on a much larger scale.
http://www.nemosgarden.com/
Or perhaps there is a better way to make such weights.

Nemo's Gardens, Images: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Ne … HoverTitle

Image Example: https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.zWrxghDUG … 25&pid=1.7

I really like their work, but am thinking of modifications for use on Mars. (And maybe Earth)

Mars has a gravity field of ~.38 of that of Earth. So the differential pressure for the same dome in very similar water, would be that much lower in the Mars pool.

I would like to entertain a version application where the interior pressure of a dome would be 333 mBar. So on Mars, as it happens 1 foot of fresh water creates a pressure of 10 mBar. So then a dome 33.3 feet from top to bottom? I think so. So, about 10.14984 Meters.

If I understand Nemo's gardens they pound anchors into the sea floor, to fix the dome, which I presume is buoyant.

I would more like to put a net over the dome, and also include such weights as to sink the dome. It may be that most weights would be around the perimeter of the retaining net. But if it is desired to counterpressure the top as well, then weights could be there as well, at the expense of blocking some of the light.

Probably these domes will be closed bottom as well but needing at least one entry method.

And rather than a circular dome, I would rather have a more linear shape with length, sort of a sausage for one version.

As the dome would be weighted, it could sit on the bottom of the pond.

The net that retains the dome might be kept somewhat protected from microbes that might try to digest it, by degassing the water the dome is in. Also, a higher salt content if desired would to some degree pickle the net.

The pond it is in should be deep enough that the top of the dome will be well under the "Surface".

Lighting may be increased with mirrors on the ground and perhaps in orbit.

This is superior to a greenhouse on the surface, as there will be very good radiation protection.

Also, if it leaks, or rips, even though humans might be in danger of drowning, the dome would either collapse as air escaped, or water would come in as air went out. If this would be on the surface and a puncture happened, you would not only have already been exposed to unnecessary radiation, but you might very well experience all the joys of being on the Martian surface without a spacesuit.

Gotta go do something else.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-19 18:03:44)

Void · 2022-07-20 09:24:45

The scheme in the last post is a bit extreme, as a method to grow calories, but might have value spiritually as well.

I suggests 1/3 Bar, which is about as close as one could get to the sunlight on Mars in street clothes, using a water radiation method.

Higher pressures with a diluted Oxygen content, perhaps a Nitrogen/Oxygen mix would be possible as well, but I expect that then you need more counterpressure from a deeper layer of water and perhaps ice above.

Other methods such as vascular aquatic plants in plastic bags, and microbes simply in the water might provide more calories but otherwise less comfort for humans. So, those methods would provide most of the organic materials, but the air bags in water might provide some specialty crops, which could improve quality of life, and the ability of humans to migrate, perhaps without airlock into the "Sunbags", from caverns in the rocks below. Probably sandstone, maybe salt.

The use of a "Sink Trap" like method might allow passage at will without an airlock, but probably airtight doors would be available in an emergency.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trap_(plumbing)

While some sandstones might allow the carving of a sink trap, it might be a better alternative to build one with stairs up and down as appropriate, with manufactured products like metals, etc.

So, it is possible that a person/family might have an apartment that consists of a cave and a "Sun Bubble".

The hope would be that under normal conditions you could walk stairs, if healthy, and transit between the two. In the event of a bubble rupture, the hope would be that the staircase "Trap" would fill with water and prevent the pressurized air in the cave-house from exiting to the Martian surface and creating a lethal condition. For handicap people then some additional thinking will be required.

Perhaps additional staircase sink traps could connect an individual dwelling to various "Commons" tunnel structures.

It might be considered that going up and down stairs could be good exercise, which would likely be of value, and also with .38 g falls would likely be less dangerous.

I think I will stop here for this post. A next one may talk about maximum calories using the water bubble method or just a minimal enclosure where a water phase can be maintained.

Done

Last edited by Void (2022-07-20 09:43:30)

Calliban · 2022-07-20 17:59:24

Void, another option that was introduced by Zubrin was to melt a dome shaped cavity under the pond ice layer and have an air bubble trapped in the cavity. The ice could be thick enough to allow a net compressive force even at the apex of the ice dome. We could use a thin layer of transparent insulation to prevent further melting. Your garden could then float in a large barge or tub, within the trapped air bubble.

Void · 2022-07-20 20:07:36

I like that, there will be many options it seems and that is very good.

I would like to see that done on a fashion with a toroid bubble. And then you could abut other such toroid's to each other. That would leave a possible need for isolating a leaking one. Perhaps an inflatable balloon that could isolate a toroid which had a life support failure of some kind.

Indeed, a linear road even from one place to another.

It think the odds are that Mars might indeed be a land of plenty, with the only concern being at this time long term human heath in a .38 gravity. But people are thinking of centrifuges. A toroidal bubble might accommodate a train(s) where natural light could get through the ice and plastic films, and into windows of the train. Perhaps in this case the whole settlement would have many of these where I would hope that all that is needed is a visit to a gym, or certain types of work. It might be that a train would spin for 2 hours at a time with pauses to have passengers, come on or get off.

Otherwise in chambers such as he suggests the interior air temperature does not need to be too far from freezing. You could have transparent plastic tents which would further have warmer air in them.

Very nice, I think.

And then there can be aquiculture that is for production of calories and food varieties.

And then it seems that some crops will benefit from chemical inputs.

Done.

Solar would be a big help, solar of various kinds, but remember I have no phobia about nuclear, particularly on Mars as it is so cold and there does seem to be room for mistakes, but lets hope it would be done with a collection of more mature methods than since it inception.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-20 20:14:26)

Void · 2022-07-21 09:36:24

I am going to goof around here a bit, and as often it true it will be about bodies of water. This will be concerning two planets, Earth and Mars.

This will involve "Plastics" quite a bit. Before I get into it I will relate my experience which induces paranoid thinking in me. At some point I was suggesting that water enclosures might be possible to exist in the desserts to hold water.

Probably a co-incidence, but thereafter the "Plastic Sin" showed up. Sea Turtles, swallowing plastic bags! Micro-Plastics!
Oh My!

As for the Sea Turtles, just stop dumping plastic bags where they can swallow them. Micro-Plastics? I simply don't know how toxic they are and at what level of density. I do expect that microbes are going to evolve to consume them, as that is how nature works. I really don't think that we can eliminate plastics from our society and have a decent standard of living. So, beyond those confessions, I am going to ignore the problem and just continue.

I am seeking to have fun quite about inland waters around the world, and possible to be created for the world Mars.

Particularly I want to play with California and the Salton Sea. I have already done some of that so expect part of this to be redundant.

I will list some potential bodies of water to treat.
-Aral Sea
-Dead Sea
-Quatara Depression
-Lake Eyre (Some ecological concerns there?)
=Carson Sink (USA)
-Great Salt Lake (USA)
-Salton Sea (USA)

There may be others but let me use the Salton Sea as a template. I am also hoping that in some way similar to this could be done on Mars.

The objective would be to turn the Salton Sea into an agriculturally productive solar power plant. Now that should really mess with Californians, as there are established patterns that would be disrupted, and some religious types would also already have locked into the notion that the Salton Sea is "Natural, even though it is currently dying.

Even so, if I said "Solar Cells" these types might say praise paganism!

This will propose to turn things upside down, so it will need a lot of social digestion.

It is sort of "Martian Thinking", so not normal actually. But normal is not necessarily in our interests.

On Mars, as it currently is, the ability to hold a body of water liquid would be supported by a source of water, and a inhibition of evaporation. And of course, an impermeable basin bottom.

The Salton Sea has an impermeable basin bottom of sufficiency it seems. It has an insufficient input of water from rain and agricultural runoff.

The sea is currently shrinking and becoming saltier, which is a disadvantage in many ways.

I have previously suggested a interchange of water from the Salton Sea, to the Pacific Ocean. This would be an enormous task, and might require Mexican consent, if to go though Mexico, or some very Sci-Fi tunneling to the Pacific through California itself otherwise. This would be an energy storage and release method, and might reduce the salt level in the Salton Sea. I see, it as having endless red tape connected to it, but perhaps in a very long time it might come about.

But in the meantime, while being held hostage by red tape, social inertia, and facts of practicality of technology, what else might be tried?

Is I understand it the reason why the Salton Sea is not a solar salt gradient pond, is that insufficient means of creating salt gradients exist, and excessive mixing of water from wind also exists.

The reason why the Salton Sea is shrinking is that it has excessive evaporation and insufficient input of "Make Up Water".

One method to reduce evaporation could be transparent floating plastic domes. Expensive, I am sure, but perhaps justified if the economic result is sufficiently positive. The coverage of the "Sea" does not need to be 100%. It seems to me that the shores could be left open for swimming, fishing and boating, and perhaps there could be passages across the "Sea". This would also suppress mixing of the waters by waves, so that if you could induce salt gradients they may persist sufficiently to create a solar salt pond of enormous size.

Distillation of water would help to produce a salt gradient. That salt gradient would also produce a stored solar energy source which could drive distillation, and probably produce power as well.

The bulk of the salt interred into the lower layers of water, then the upper layers may be acceptable to fish and plants.
This could be done for a while. It is also possible that salts might be precipitated out of solution and stored in the bottom of the "Sea", if the lowest layer is very saturated with dissolved salts.

The floating transparent bubbles could condense evaporated water on their inner surfaces, especially at night and in the winter. This is then a output of value. In order to lower the lakes level, then sell that to dirt farmers. Otherwise, if you want the water level to rise sell less to the dirt farmers.

At times the floating domes may be cool enough for the growth of plants, so you would possibly use them as greenhouses. Would you do Nemo's Gardens?

http://www.nemosgarden.com/

I don't know, it might be too warm in the Salton Sea. But for the Great Salt Lake you might, and for the Aral Sea, maybe at times.

So, it might be possible to "Jetson" the situation(s). It is not my call, but I think there is potential. And anything worked on, on the Earth of this sort could probably be useful on Mars.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=Jetson%2C … cc=0&ghpl=

Oh, I forgot Fjords and Polders (Netherlands). Fjords, often have a shallow portion at their connection to the sea. Consider a dam and then "Jetson" that body of water, if you can deal with the Luddites and red tape.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fjord
Quote:

Fjord
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigationJump to search
This article is about the landform. For other uses, see Fjord (disambiguation).
Geirangerfjord, Norway
In physical geography, a fjord or fiord (/ˈfjɔːrd, fiːˈɔːrd/ (listen)[1]) is a long, narrow inlet with steep sides or cliffs, created by a glacier.[2] There are many fjords on the coasts of Alaska, Antarctica, British Columbia, Chile, Denmark, Germany, Greenland, the Faroe Islands, Iceland, Ireland, Kamchatka, the Kerguelen Islands, Labrador, Newfoundland, New Zealand, Norway, Novaya Zemlya, Nunavut, Quebec, Russia, South Georgia Island, Tasmania, United Kingdom, and Washington state.[3] Norway's coastline is estimated to be 29,000 km (18,000 mi) long with its nearly 1,200 fjords, but only 2,500 km (1,600 mi) long excluding the fjords.[4][5]

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-21 10:42:19)

Void · 2022-07-21 10:51:05

Well, there is more pertaining to the last post.

These created objects may be large enough that you could import solar energy from space as light deflected by orbital mirrors, this could be useful especially at high latitudes.

Not Microwaves or Lasers, reflected sunlight.

As for Carbon accumulation in the atmosphere? Make more Plastic Domes. That will sequester it.

We could get to the situation where we can burn coal to put CO2 into the atmosphere and produce energy, and then by that method pipe it to a situation where it is pulled out of the atmosphere, to produce plastic domes. Lots of them.

Lots of solar energy and agricultural products.

Maybe a pleasant situation for people as well, even far north.

Done.

Void · 2022-07-21 11:37:14

Well, now, I want to see about twisting things a bit more.

The Canadian Shield, which I grew up on, has lots of rocks trees and water. Some farmlands in clay deposits but not so much.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Shield
Picture Quote: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ … al_map.JPG

Yuppies will hate me, but to convert some lakes to solar power plants both light from the sun and from orbital mirrors, you have to include salts and reduce water. This is sort of the opposite of the typical situation in the Great Basin.

This will very likely mess with social inertia.

But if you could find some lakes, not most lakes, and inhibit the introduction of fresh water, and indeed perhaps use distillation to produce distilled water and also introduce salts to the lakes, then you may have a solar salt pond. The energy could power the distillation process. You would probably need transparent floating domes, and this would be a way to sequester Carbon into the plastics.

Even if far north these might also be agriculturally productive.

So orbital mirrors, sequestering Carbon, and producing power for industry. Maybe benefiting humans and cooling the planet? Especially cooling the polar areas if we believe CO2 is doing the greenhouse thing.

I think it is worth a look.

Where do the salts come from?

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-21 11:46:05)

Void · 2022-07-21 16:58:37

I want to continue with the idea of orbital mirrors to send extra light to "Receivers" on Earth or Mars.

https://zeihan.com/

Quotes and links to his works on the web:

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=pe … HoverTitle

This Map is from the Absent Superpower by Peter Zeihan: https://www.bing.com/images/search?view … ajaxserp=0

I am winging it here. I only half know what I am talking about, but this can be a learning process anyway.

In this topic today, we seem to have evidence of a solar thermal system that can produce fuels.
Posts #46, #47, and #48 are significant to this recent activity.
A quote of kdb512 in #48:

Excellent find. Well, there it is ladies and gents. A fuly functional solar thermal H2O + CO2 to Syngas to Methanol to Kerosene / Diesel solar reactor scaled up from a 4kW lab prototype to 50kW. Next steps would be 1MW, followed by 150MW. Ivanpah remains the largest solar power tower facility at 392MW, but uses 3 ~130MW power towers. 150MW has been done at Ouarzazate in Morocco and at Aurora in South Australia.

The solar power plants might be able to also receive redirected solar energy from mirrors in orbit, at times.
They may need to be redesigned a bit for that, but maybe it can be done with future plants of that type.
These facilities however may be built to make fuels. I have methane in mind, perhaps with a little H2 enrichment.
And lets be honest, until that becomes mastered, likely we get Methane from the interior of the USA in the case of North America. As an example in this case, presuming we are using so called "Blue Methane", it comes from our sun belt somewhere.

Our natural gas pipelines might be extended into Canada's territories (Yes Canadian Natural Gas Pipelines). Don't want to ruffle Canadian feathers. And this is only an example, as there are places in the north USA to do similar.

Lets suppose that in some Canadian Shield lake in the north of a prairie province, it would be allowed to convert a lake to a solar pond type lake with saline gradients. Keep in mind that there are other places where this might be done as similar such as Japan by the looks of Peter Zeihans solar map.

I read that solar ponds have a maximum efficiency of 17% which is not great, but the heat of the lower layers could heat a city, and you might generate some power. But I have in mind to pioneer a method where the solar pond becomes the preheat, and then you further heat the water with natural gas. It could be "Blue" natural gas.

And with orbital mirrors it may be possible to deliver orbital solar power to that solar lake, during the winter and otherwise, and during the nights at times.

But at this lake during the long winter nights, you have some excellent cold. So how to harness that as well. It would require invention and so I am not sure. But the same might be true for Mars, where long winter nights really provide cold, and global dust storms do as well.

So, if you have orbital mirrors, they might point to deliver photons to a northern lake collector when the cloud cover allowed it or when wanted they would deliver photons to places in the American South West to make fuels. Another use of them would possibly involve warding off killing frosts in places with short growing seasons. That is an old dream.

Another such arrangement could be Japan and Australia. Japan may be able to build receivers in it's inland seas.

Europe is harder still, but who knows? I see that it might be possible to deliver intermittent photon enrichment to places like Greenland, Iceland, and a spot in northern Labrador.

And of course I am also interested that the northern receivers would employ plastic domes on the surfaces of the water collectors. This will capture Carbon longer term, and also horrify the people who are having panic attacks of doom about plastics. I see that it is all good.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-21 17:39:07)

Void · 2022-07-22 07:43:17

I stumbled into this this morning:
https://biopharma.co.uk/bps/home/
Quote: (It is a useful chart) https://biopharma.co.uk/blog/2015/03/30 … re-of-ice/

Part of their business seems to be freeze drying things. As it happens in places Mars is a natural freeze dryer.

And I am now again on the path of creating large solar collectors mostly out of ice and water, and some transparent vapor barriers and a few other accessories.

Quote:

Metric    Imperial
Temp.    Pressure    Temp.    Pressure
°C    mbar    °F    torr
0    6.108    32    4.581376
-1    5.623    30.2    4.217596
-2    5.173    28.4    3.880068

I was thinking about sea water, which I read is 3.5% salt, and freezes at 28.4 degF. (~=2 degC)

Lake Vida is a different lake than Lake Vanda. Lake Vida is extremely salty and very cold, yet microbes grow in it at ~-13 degC I believe.

Query: "surface air pressure map for Mars"

Well, that query did not turn up anything I liked much. I do believe that the Northern Plains have a pressure of about 7 to 9 mBar. Hellas can get up to about 11.5 mb.

So, the point is I think that there will be places on Mars where you could have an ice covered body of sea water simulant, where you could drill a hole in the ice and the water might not actually boil. But it would probably be very prone to evaporation. Still with a sort of a slightly pressurized shed you might get things in and out of that body of water through a hole in the ice.

I believe that for Lake Vanda, the water under the is about twice as salty as sea water, so it could be at a temperature lower than -2 degC. I don't know what the value would be.

Just supposing (-4) this might be close: Quote:

-4 4.372 24.8 3.279269

So some protective materials are of course needed, but with slabs covering 1/3 of Mars, a temptation arises to build a giant solar collector of the solar pond type, and receive both local and perhaps orbital energy.

It then is an energy device with thermal storage, that will also support microbial sea type life at least.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-31 08:30:57)

Void · 2022-07-22 09:44:52

So, I guess it could make sense to create protected bodies of water, and also to shine additional light from orbit down to Mars. But of course it might make sense to shine that light also on other types of solar devices.

Returning to this: https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-022-00530-x

Giving crops Acetate and Oxygen to grow, microbes as well.

So then this can added to such a solar pond, to stimulate more growth.

The other members have mentioned "Energy Density" as mattering. I am sure it can matter.

It seems to me then down the road a Mars settlement method should include orbital and surface activities, as it may be possible to make certain areas more resource dense, and to better utilize equipment.

But then again even if you could get 1,000,000 people on Mars after 50 years? Then if such productivity is possible, the extent of things like seas, do not have to be that big.

But in a few centuries maybe big then.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-22 09:57:24)

Void · 2022-07-22 18:29:57

Well it looks like I have not been giving enough attention to other members posts.

Quote: From post #349:

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,936
Email
I know we have discussed this before. Here is an article written by Robert Zubrin concerning the use of nuclear heat sources to melt ice covered lakes on Mars.
https://www.centauri-dreams.org/2020/05 … -for-mars/
In principle, we could build purpose built aqueous homogenous reactors for this task. They would not need to operate at high temperature, as we intend to use them to generate heat. A reactor operating at temperature of 100°C would only need to be pressurised to 1 bar and could make use of a single low pressure turbine, with lake water pumped through its condenser.
The reactor itself would be a stainless steel tank containing water with dissolved uranium and thorium salts. A clever design would achieve unity breeding ratio, allowing fission products to be removed and thorium salts added continuously. 1GW-yr of thermal power production would consume about 300kg of thorium salt. It should be possible to build extremely powerful AHR reactors very cheaply, especially if heat is the desired product.
In such a situation we don't really need to care as much about efficiency, as the cost of the heat producing system will increase only slightly with increasing power. The heat exchangers will scale with power. At the sort of low pressures considered here they could be cast iron maybe even ceramic tube. A simple, slow rotating turbine can be constructed from carbon steels. The casing can be cast iron, along with the condenser.
Last edited by Calliban (2022-07-03 20:25:04)
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

I missed it previously. I guess I was being too important

I will read it now. I also did read some of Dr. Zubrins thinking on this in a book of his, I think it might have been "The case for Mars", or "The case for Space".

Yes I did read and like "The Case for Space", and recall his thinking. I guess I can agree that if the early settlers can get nuclear reactors to take with them to Mars, nuclear is a good way to go.

But then, I think it might be good to expand into solar, and then when possible, to try to set up a local to Mars nuclear industry with extraction of needed substances.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-22 18:37:03)

Void · 2022-07-23 05:52:34

My attention span is now on this query phrase: "Cloud Cover Map of World".

I am actually rather aware of most types of geography for the Earth. Mars is harder. Lots of time a science article will speak of some feature on Mars, and I cannot get a big picture as to where it exist in a whole view of the planet.

For Earth water clouds which can block light matter to me, but not much so for Mars at this time. For Mars of course dust storms are important.

Query: "Cloud Cover Map of World"

General Images: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=%2 … HoverTitle

I will pick a specific one: https://www.bing.com/images/search?view … ajaxserp=0

The above map, tells where the clouds are but not so much when they are, Day/Night?, Season?

I think I understand part of the reason that solar heated dry valley lakes can exist. Probably lots of sunlight in the summer.

When I was much younger, the idea of having orbital mirrors was sort of in fashion, maybe not so much now. Now it is more likely to think of microwave projectors in orbit powered by solar. Maybe Lasers are being speculated on. Those would also be important for propulsion of spacecraft.

For the purpose of benefiting the human populations, I am thinking that orbital solar power facilities might be having all three for various purposes. But the wealth created would justify them. Europe does not appear to be able to benefit much from orbital mirrors. North America seems to have a continental core that may allow for the utility of mirrors, although the other two would be of use as well.

The area of North China and South Siberia looks like it has potential.

And of course areas that are already sunny could receive more light, if humans wanted to use that to generate power/fuels.

If the world were open minded then the idea of fighting frost might be a side deal for this, allowing farming further north than is practiced now.

It may be possible to cause an upwelling of nutrient rich waters in certain locations in the Oceans, if it was felt that that could reduce the CO2 in the atmosphere/water. Presumably this would grow more photo microbes and so more fish, and then part of that to drop to the ocean floors as sediments, sequestering Carbon. This then possibly a new food supply.

So such an orbital mirror system might target opportunities. For power and fuels, target desert locations. For agriculture target cloudless nights. Possibly create solar ponds, in the regions that have say 50% cloud cover, and send extra photons to those when the opportunity exists. But in realty even if it is not done for Earth, now I have a visual for what might be done for Mars.

Mars................

I choose to see a two-part Mars. 1) Near Mars is of things orbiting Mars, and 2) Far Mars is Mars itself.

Mars direct is more or less the sensible way to get people to Mars, at least to start with. So that is more or less Earth>Far Mars.

But where cargo is concerned, other methods may do, or even be better. Also, the other members notions of the "Large Ship" does not go too Far Mars, but Near Mars. So, I am not the only one flirting with Near Mars.

The way I see it is that Near Mars will be a solar system hub. Connecting;
-Earth/Moon
-Mars
-Phobos
-Deimos
-Main belt and beyond asteroids.

And it may be that eventually containers will be manufactured on Mercury and stop at Venus to get atmosphere and will go to Mars orbit.
But that is a long way off.

So, until something like the "Large Ship" shows up then you do Mars Direct to get people to Mars, but you may very well use "Slow Boat" methods to send bulk cargos to Mars, either Near Mars or Far Mars.

These methods might involve solar power and perhaps solar wind and could as is useful involve Ballistic Capture to Mars Orbit or Mars surface. These typically will be one-way trips, with a possible return of certain propulsion components to Earth/Moon in some cases.

Phobos and Deimos may provide Oxygen in orbit and Carbon. We don't know about Hydrogen, but Mars can provide that if necessary.

As far as how many people or robots would be in orbits of Mars or on the surface of Mars, that is a thing that can be self-adjusted. Whatever is the useful mix at the time(s).

As far as Phobos and Deimos go a thing I would like to see beyond a radar probe, would be harpoons with listening devices/Seismometers.
I believe that these moons will have a solar tide, so they should creak and rumble a bit. So then that might be another way to look inside of them beyond radar. Knowing what they are like inside can help for making plans and decisions.

To me it is fairly obvious that if you can make propellants and structures with these materials and materials from elsewhere, then ships lifting cargo from Mars, or arriving to Mars will not have to lift their landing propellants to the orbits of Mars. To land they would be filled, and they could land.

And of course, a position(s) in orbit will be useful for terraforming and for projecting extra energy to special locations.

Guess I will come back later and talk about those.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-23 08:03:00)

Void · 2022-07-23 08:27:05

I ran into this. This is related to terraforming for Earth.
https://video.foxbusiness.com/v/6309878 … show-clips

I do wish to see more rational and honest thinking on these things.

Done.

Void · 2022-07-23 09:13:31

I think there should be a new evaluation of the use of orbital energy sources. Probably geosynchronous.

With Starship(s), Terran-R, Neutron(And their next bigger one), and of course international competitors. But also considering the use of Electric Rockets.

And another thing that just popped into my head. Granted that Starship(s) and others can bring propellants to LEO, with electric rockets can these propellants be brought efficiently to geosynchronous orbital positions where there might be platforms that beam energy to Earth?

In this case I suggest that what would be transferred would be Water, as liquid or ice and CO2, likely as dry ice. Lifting this stuff to LEO would be safer for the chance of ground explosions, and then so to LEO, and then by electric rocket to geosynchronous orbits, where it could be converted to rocket propellants on demand as needed. It would also have radiation shield and agricultural uses there as well. And obviously you avoid boil off problems.

So, now your Starship only has to carry enough propellants from LEO to Geosynchronous orbit to arrive there, as the electric rockets have moved water and CO2 to geosynchronous orbit, more efficiently. Then you fill up, and go, Moon, Mars, or whatever.

Coming from Mars back to Earth this probably does not help, as you need to scream into the Earth's atmosphere at high speeds. But for Lunar Starship and the like, yes maybe you can take advantage of a refill in geosynchronous orbit from the Moon to Earth. As time goes by maybe even water and/or Oxygen comes from the Moon partially carried by robotic Argon Electric Rockets. The hope being that the Argon can come from the Moon.

Spinning artificial gravity devices may double as gyros on these geosynchronous orbit platforms.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-23 09:24:31)

Void · 2022-07-23 09:41:27

Terraforming/Para Terraforming Mars:

Calliban and others have give wise counsels. I have also awakened to some additional understandings.

Working with Ice and Water, there is a temptation to think that Hellas is the best place, having the largest air pressure, but it is not as water rich as other locations, unless well water becomes a real thing there.

Given that virtually anywhere on Mars you have to have a "Top Dome" to hold water or ice in place, by imposing some small pressure, then quite a few places are almost as good even without the pressurization of Hellas.

Another thing is that I would like to see orbital assets around Mars, of great significance. This then will eventually reduce the relative value of the Mariner Rift Valley, as if those orbital assets were functional, they could export energy to high latitude situations with lots of water ice.

Calliban's concern that inflating the Martian atmosphere would reduce the effective use of Mass Drivers from the Martian surface, needs attention.

That is if the orbital assets are as important as that then unless a substitution of materials from another world, (Phobos, Deimos, other) is possible, then at least at the beginning the use of Mass Drivers from Mars may be of a large value.

I have previously said that even with a thick atmosphere Mass Drivers may work on top of the shield volcanos, but that might be a bother and cost not desired.

This is just an alternate look at what is of value. Dust storms? I think it may be possible to stifle them, by heating the high latitudes and cooling the low latitudes and altitudes, but if you have nuclear and also long-term storage of solar, food, and chemicals, is an alternative to just live with them?

And we do not know yet, how human biology will be on the surface of Mars. We will not know until it is tried, for the most part, so having an orbital and a surface plan seems the correct path to me.

Granted we can mess with Mars, Red Mars, Green Mars, Blue Mars, or for me Icy Mars with productive energy and food, but we need to have a broad path, and to make measurements as we move through time carefully, deciding what is prudent and useful.

That is how I think.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-23 09:50:42)

Void · 2022-07-23 10:04:32

Well, I searched for this, as I found it on my phone, but as is so often true my computers search engine did not see it's existence:

Anyway it might fetch related content as video's: "Beaming power down from space Sa a UK Initiative's plan, "ViedoFromSpace"

Lunch and gym, sauna I guess. At least that hope

Done.

Void · 2022-07-24 09:22:06

Well, the previous posts where I suggested using the old notion of protecting crops from frost with orbital mirrors, got me wondering if you could do that with microwaves. Apparently yes.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US4434345A/en
Quote:

Microwave system for frost protection of fruit trees
Abstract
A microwave system for frost protection of fruit trees and plants which utilizes a concentrated beam of microwave energy radiated from a directional microwave antenna and directed toward trees, plants and fruits in danger of freezing. The microwave energy is absorbed in the tissues of the leaves and fruits where it is converted to heat energy. In one form the antenna is mounted atop a mast from where the beam may be directed toward selected trees or plants by means of a two axis swiveling sequencer controlled by motors and control apparatus. In another form, the antenna is mounted atop an articulated two-leg boom attached to a wheeled carriage that may be self propelled or drawn and which has controls for operating the boom and for direction the antenna.
Images (3)

Of course, this might be of interest for Mars. No further comments on that at this time.

But what else could be useful is to have large platforms in geosynchronous orbit. But those cost money to build, lots of money. Power delivery to the Earth's surface has been suggested as a product to justify the investment. But if you could also use those microwave projectors to ward off early killing frosts, that may also give a payback, presuming you could find a way to charge the customer. The customer might be an individual landowner or some kind of an association of farmers, or perhaps a government agency.

But with soils thinning, and hunger likely an issue, this might be important.

Of course, people would have to be used to the idea that at times near the harvest season, some power from orbit might be diverted to this task.

If global warming is as real as it seems, then growing seasons should be getting longer and I believe that they are. I recall Peter Zeihan indicating that for some places in the American Midwest, it is getting close to being able to have two crops a year. This could help make that pay off.

The Canadian Shield is mostly without good soils so it would not help in those places so much, but I believe that the northern parts of western provinces of Canada such as Alberta has had farming expanding northward, and places like the Yukon, may have valleys that have a growing season of about 70 days. Probably 90 days are wanted as a minimum, but if your average was 90, then half of the time you would have crop losses some years. And then Alaska and Siberia are in a similar boat. Probably some places with good soil but not quite a long enough growing season. The Nordic Countries? Iceland, Greenland?

As Peter Zeihan has suggested, you could get by without petroleum products perhaps, but if you don't have food, your done.

-----

So, these platforms would have multiple services to offer.
-Energy projection.
-Crop Protection, Mirrors/Microwaves.
-Propellant filling.

I have suggested previously that materials from Earth and Moon, maybe asteroids, could be processes at these platforms to make Fuels and Oxidizers. Methods such as Electric Rocket Propulsion might be involved to make the deliveries of these materials more efficient.

Relatively easy to store products like Water, Carbon Dioxide, and perhaps Lunar Regolith could be stored at these platforms, and serve as shielding for humans and sensitive machines, and also be used agriculturally.

While there would be electricity to drive the propellants creation, it might also be possible to take an agricultural route for that. Grow plants as food, release Oxygen, process organic waste for fuels.

Ships may then stop at these platforms to refill propellants, that means that they don't have to have as much mass to propel from LEO to these platforms.

I am not sure that the reverse will work, ships traveling from the Moon and stopping to refill before going to LEO. Maybe.

The intent would be to get enough value out of the platforms by providing these services so that the costs of creation and maintenance can be justified economically.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-31 08:31:12)

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