Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Calliban · 2022-06-11 06:27:17

This Jupiter Trojan I find particularly interesting.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/617_Patroclus

It is a binary asteroid with two components, both approximately 100km in diameter. Interestingly, both appear to be cometary, with their density suggesting a predominantly water ice composition.

In the distant future, when Mars has a population of many billions, this body and others like it, could provide the materials needed for terraforming. Future terraformers could mine it for water ice, which would be compressed into blocks perhaps 1m in diameter. These would then be accelerated using mass drivers, putting them onto eliptical orbits with perihelion coinciding the semi-major axis of Mars orbit. The bodies would all eventually collide with Mars, exploding in the upper atmosphere. This woukd super-saturate the Martian upper atmosphere with water vapour. Ultraviolet flux would break water vapour down into hydrogen and oxygen, with hydrogen rapidly escaping into space. Oxygen would accumulate within the atmosphere.

To build up a breathable atmosphere, we would need to deliver a minimum of 5 tonnes of water ice for each square metre of the Martian surface. To accomplish this in 1000 years implies a delivery rate of 12,000 tonnes per second. That is a lot of mass and a lot of energy needed to change its velocity. However, even at Jupiter distance from the sun, huge amounts of energy can be harnesed using simple foil mirrors.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-06-11 06:37:32)

Void · 2022-06-11 07:28:01

That is fantastic work Calliban.

I am really getting "InToThis".

Trojans: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter_trojan
I really like this diagram: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ … tem-en.png

The Hilda's are really interesting as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilda_asteroid
Picture Quote(s): https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ … sLousy.gif
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hild … upiter.png

Anyway, it is really looking to me like dealing with Mars should be strongly linked to parts of the rest of the solar system.

Platforms placed in various locations could indeed deliver materials to where they might be wanted. But those platforms could be worlds onto themselves. However, I think it would be good to seek to keep an integration between the separated worlds of the humans and their/the AI(s).

The L4 & L5 are rather special for their relative size and contents. Also any worlds interior to them in the solar system, might donate materials to them with this technology: https://www.centauri-dreams.org/2017/12 … nd-beyond/

As robots. For instance Mercury seems to have a lot of Carbon. Perhaps though such will not need to be imported in quantity, as it may be present in the Trojans/Hildas/Main Belt Asteroids. But perhaps it could be done. Similarly our Moon or the Main Belt could contribute Stony/Metal materials to the trojans. Then with huge platforms, they could send materials to those worlds, using as you have suggested mass drivers in large part.

I am thinking that those platforms could be as large as nations on Earth, and so could certainly host such mass drivers.

Eventually it might be that lasers inside the orbit of Mercury could donate additional energy.

Of course the human race has some growing up to do for that.

I think it is funny that after our success of the Moon and other efforts, what we got was "Star Wars". Which is pretty stupid, stone age mentality unleashed in the cosmos. If you think about it they might as well have butcher blades as light sabers, We typically don't see the blood and gore that would occur.

I'm just saying OK that was an OK playground/outlet for those archaic motivations/tendencies, but adults most of the time do not engage in such behaviors to put order into our societies.

There is a real tendency for the human race to breed itself back into primitives again. That sadly is a major problem at this time. It remains to be seen if the feedbacks for it reward the Mimics or the Originator people.

But that is pretty much beyond my powers to try to deal with.

I prefer to see an exciting future of prosperity and capability, not a worlds of sticks, stones, and gore.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-11 07:50:08)

Void · 2022-06-11 20:50:46

So, I am sort of unsure about things, to a degree. If anyone wants to give me a suggestion I could be very good with that.

Just now the collection of worlds that interest me are Earth, Luna, Mars, Lunar L4, Lunar L5, Jupiter L4, and Jupiter L5, and maybe the Earth/Sun L4 & L5.

I am moving in the direction of seeing each L4 & L5 as potential new worlds, as it seems that over time significant mass could be moved into those which do not have so much and for those with abundant resources, Jupiter L4 & L5, it really looks good to me long term.

The works of the 70's including O'Neil, and now Isaac Arthur and similar tell me that enormous multi-element platforms that would have very much value, could be constructed and linked together.

Just how to fit Mars and the Moon in are a bit of a puzzle, but I think that if the new space hardware being created is as it seems it might be, all of that can be in reach.

I have mentioned the notion that spinning flywheel/synthetic gravity machines can store energy for mass driver runs. I would guess that something like supercapacitors would then temporarily store the energy between events. A mass drive event would then be followed by spin ups, and then spin downs of flywheels > Supercapacitors or batteries > Mass Driver Event.

I have wondered if platforms for our Earth/Moon L4 & L5 could host such a mass driver setup. So then the Bezos dream modified, would then more greatly support the launching of materials to the outwards, such as Mars and Jupiter L4 & L5.

And then the question is could the Jupiter L4 & L5 send special materials so to Mars and Earth for Aero Burn capture.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-11 21:00:39)

Void · 2022-06-12 10:33:15

I have been thinking about Earth Trojans now.

Query: "Existence of Earth Trojan Asteroid Confirmed - Could Become "Ideal Bases" for Advanced Exploration of the Solar System"

Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Existance … 2f&pc=U531

Specific Response: https://www.spacedaily.com/reports/New_ … 0transient.
Quote(s): "New Earth Trojan asteroid"
Trajan> "2020 XL5"
Trojan> "2010 TK7"

WIKI for "2020_XL5"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/(614689)_2020_XL5
Quote

Physical characteristics
I guess if you could, you would do so upon evaluating value of materials, difficulty, and also risk to other objects such as Earth. These could make it worthwhile to do, (Maybe).

Photometric measurements of optical observations from 2020–2021 show that 2020 XL5 exhibits a color resembling that of carbonaceous C-type asteroids. Assuming that 2020 XL5's phase curve behaves similarly to those of C-type asteroids, the absolute magnitude (H) of the asteroid is 18.6, which corresponds to a mean diameter about 1.18 km (0.73 mi) for a typical C-type asteroid's geometric albedo of 0.06.[7] This makes 2020 XL5 the largest Earth trojan asteroid known to date, being up to three times as large as the 0.3 km (0.19 mi)-sized 2010 TK7.[7]
Because 2020 XL5 is only visible at low altitudes in the sky during twilight, atmospheric distortions and scattered light from the Sun hinder accurate photometry of the asteroid's light curve, thus information about its rotation could not be determined.[7]
Exploration
Due to 2020 XL5's high orbital inclination, a rendezvous mission to the asteroid from low Earth orbit (LEO) would require a minimum total delta-v of 10.3 km/s (6.4 mi/s)—too high to be considered an ideal target for a low-energy trajectory. On the other hand, a flyby trajectory to 2020 XL5 from LEO could be more feasible with a minimum total delta-v of 3.3 km/s (2.1 mi/s).[7]

So, I am becoming more educated. These things can have orbital inclinations that make them worse or better for accessing from Earth/Moon.

So, I am thinking that with a Solar propulsion method, either Photons, or Solar wind, perhaps objects with a high inclination could be systematically changed over to low inclinations and then included into two new worlds for human use, E4 and E5, (E=Earth).

A certain small proportion of the substances might be moved to Earth/Moon, if of economic value.

The rest such as Iron, Silicon, to be incorporated into the "NullMass" of a artificial world with Mass drivers on it.

A somewhat silly question is, could those two worlds tow or push the Earth in the Sun's gravity well? (That is not a thing we would need, but of interest to me).

There are other options, but could "Wind Rider" be used for manipulations?
https://thedebrief.org/this-new-deep-sp … olar-wind/
My understanding is that it is somewhat slow for humans to ride, but I would think it would do OK if it was robotic, or to modify "NullMass" orbital characteristics. I am not clear how you steer such a thing, but I would imagine it can be done somehow. Perhaps it would be OK within a Lagrange point, to travel between discrete objects in various locations in the "Pockets".

Certain locations in the pockets are said to be easier to reach from Earth than the Moon. But then if your cargo is humans and their consumables, that may not be precisely accurate.

My understanding is that the gravity wells of L4 and L5 resemble a bowl, so I have the impression that to some small degree you could perturb these things, and they may not leave the pockets, but be dragged somehow by the Earth. Not certain about that.

The masses that are already known are likely sufficient for Radiation protections, and maybe propellants, and to build structure.

And so could humans manage to capture NEO's into EL5 or EL4?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-Earth_object

So, if I understand correctly, NEO's migrate gradually and sometimes are ended by collisions, and I am under the understanding that perhaps the solar system keeps generating new ones.

So to create a control mechanism of capture and utilization seems worth some thinking about it.

Done for now.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-12 11:17:58)

Void · 2022-06-12 21:31:17

I am looking further.

It does seem to me that it might be possible to nibble on these probable rubble piles.

I sort of feel that even if it is hard to access them by chemical rockets, with a magnetic bubble drive, it may be that the asteroid can be visited for a nibble on materials, and a buildup of hardware.

Those are really big chunks of materials.

I expect that there will be magnetic particles embedded in the materials, and so that could be a collection method.

With a small synthetic gravity machine, it seems to me that these materials could be processed similar to what might be done on Earth. Even so microgravity would also allow special materials as well.

So, perhaps like an organism, a "Null-Spaceship could be built and expanded. Until it became a world in itself, with farms, factories, mass drivers, fuel production.

At least I hope that.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-12 21:39:50)

Void · 2022-06-12 22:26:52

I am thinking that it might be good to visualize new methods to treat selected and then all NEO's as feed for spacecraft building.

Some of these already have water many do not seem to. But magnetic fields, dust clouds, and rings may alter the situation both for propulsion of these objects and the collection of Hydrogen from the solar wind.

https://www.cnet.com/science/scientists … ths-water/
Quote:

Science
'Missing reservoir' of Earth's water may have originated from the sun
A cosmic water factory could've helped create our beloved oceans.
Monisha Ravisetti headshot
Monisha Ravisetti
Nov. 30, 2021 3:09 p.m. PT

Quote:

After scrutinizing samples of asteroid Itokawa brought back in 2010 by the Japanese space agency's Hayabusa space probe, the team confirmed the sun as a likely contributor to Earth's expansive water content. They published a paper on their findings Monday in the journal Nature Astronomy.

So here is an idea. Can we try to make sails out of rings?

The objects rings, and dust clouds, could be influenced by gravitation, magnetism, electron beams, and the nature of the particles that they are constructed of.

At first I thought that rings might make a good proton collector method for protons from the sun. But then I began to think of rings as sails.

Magnetic fields can hold dust clouds, and if you have a rotating magnetic field, perhaps you can create a disk shape.

Of course the size and composition of the particles could be controlled to some extent.

A part of a method to manipulate a NEO, would be the orientation of the rings in the place of orbit.

Ring angle would be like the angle of a sail.

An interesting twist on that would be to give rings to large asteroids in the main belt. Perhaps spacecraft could "Swim" on the surface of the rings to go up and down.

I believe that magnetic fields can be made leaky to allow the protons to get to the particles but the field then also needs to retain the particles into orbit of the world they surround.

The general objectives would be to protect inhabited locations, and also to harvest the materials to support locations like L4 and L5 gravity pockets.

I think we want to know a lot more about existing rings.

I need some sleep though.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-12 22:38:24)

Void · 2022-06-13 10:16:32

I am trying to evaluate my last post for obvious flaws, I don't think it is too bad for that, but certainly there are more unknowns than knowns. The question of what people will do, will be answered in time. Not sure I will be a witness.

We really don't know how seriously to take the human race at this point. There are those who, say we should not go into space at all as we have too many problems to fix here. I think they are very immoral people, as they then have indicated that they want to enslave us to make their lives satisfying. I think there is an attempt to deceive in their intentions.
And they never do let things get fixed, as that is their argument as to why we should have to serve them.

The way the game is played is to get the producers to produce, then they, (the enemy), appoint people who are the best and brightest to be in charge. Then they harvest the energy from the producers, and buy the loyalty of the minions.

I don't consider that to be a dream, but a place of darkness and evil.

So, that can lead back to the stone ages as it is not regenerative in feedback.

In any case I do think it would be a good skill to have to "Domesticate" NEO's, and so then utilize them to build structure for humans and/or AI.

Given enough development time where the farmers of humans are not allowed to eat and digest the efforts of the subjugated, it seems that such a thing could emerge.

It is difficult to know how much actual humans would choose to be directly involved.

it could be possible that a lot of these missions would be run by robots.

The dependence on robots could be helpful or not. I don't think anyone can be sure about that.

Well, unless anything more along these lines emerges, I guess I might move to something else.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-13 10:29:41)

Void · 2022-06-14 05:11:37

I am starting to discover my ignorance about trojans.

It seems that then can oscillate closer to the sun and then away from the sun. By quite a lot.

WIKI for "2020_XL5"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/(614689)_2020_XL5
Quote:

Orbit and classification
Heliocentric orbit diagram of 2020 XL5 along with the inner planets
The orbit of 2020 XL5 is well-known with an uncertainty parameter of 0 and a long observation arc over 8 years. The asteroid has been identified in several precovery observations by various sky surveys, including Pan-STARRS, from dates as far back as December 2012.[6][7]
2020 XL5 orbits the Sun at an average distance of 1.001 AU once every 365.8 days, or approximately 1 Earth year. Its orbit has a high eccentricity of 0.388 and an inclination of 13.8° with respect to the ecliptic plane. Over the course of its orbit, its distance from the Sun ranges from 0.61 AU at perihelion to 1.39 AU at aphelion, crossing the orbits of Venus and Earth. Since its orbit crosses that of Earth's while having a semi-major axis greater than 1 AU (by a small margin), 2020 XL5 is classified as an Apollo asteroid.[6]

Picture Quote: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ … _orbit.jpg

I am having a hard time, but am starting to understand better.

So these worlds are not always easy to reach. You have to pay the costs of orbital changes. But of course the space they orbit in has a continuing stream of photons and solar wind to use for propulsion methods.

So, I guess the way to "Infect" these worlds with humans and their machines, might be a "World Ship", that slowly migrates to each in turn, and "Boots" them up into a start of the building of a "World Ship".

So, then as a world was converted into a World Ship, it would develop the ability to sail on Photons and/or the Solar Wind.

So, then this might be done with some NEO's.

Where the "World Ships" might be parked over time would be an interesting notion.

It is possible that I am still more ignorant than I am aware of. That is bad and good. It is bad to be ignorant, but it leaves the good opportunity to learn.

Enough! I am leaving this post at that for now.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-14 17:53:49)

Void · 2022-06-14 17:56:59

First of all, I am goofing.

I am going on the notion of "World Ships".

This is not like SpaceX going to Mars, it is not like Jeff Bezos wanting a gigantic cosmopolis around the Earth in orbits.

It is another thing, kind of in between and yet indeed another thing in itself.

I have looked at resonances before. You don't need to worry; I am deeply interested in Mars still.

For the Earth and the Asteroid belt, somewhere in the Asteroid belt there is a 2 for the Earth's 1.

Ceres has a year of ~4.6, so that is quite a bit more than 2.

Oh, I guess I was dreaming. Asteroids of the main belt are 3 to 6 years. Sort of.

We could do a resonance of 3 years, to approximately the 1.5 of Mars. Those are interesting numbers.

3 Years would be near the inner belt of asteroids, and would possibly connect with the ~1.5 for Mars, and the 1 for Earth.

OOPS! For Jupiter: ~
Jupiter · Orbital period
11.86 years

That is almost a multiple of 3 though.

------

Venus seems to have an orbital period of 225 days.

Mars has an orbital period of 686.98 day

686.98/225 = 3.053244444444444

Yes, I thought I remembered something like that.

So, cyclers between Mars and Venus, on a 3 to 1 period seem ordained almost. But it you have the propellant of photons, and solar wind, shifting to perfection seems within reach.

I agree with the chemical and even nuclear rocket people, cycling spaceships have their advantages, but if you have to move all the mass between them and a source, it seems hard to be wanting to bless it.

But if you have a process in solar orbit where, small chips of rubble piles are injected into an existing pattern replication industry, then it may have more merit.

So, then it may be interesting to have circular cyclers, and also eccentric cyclers in a very complex pattern. Some of these can shift their paths to intersect each other using the propellant of the photons and the solar wind.

Another trick which I do not what to more than mention one example of would be where Mars had a companion world ship that orbited the sun at a period of 2/3 that of Mars, and Earth had one that orbited at a 1 year interval. Perhaps in a Trojan location.

Am I correct to think that they might be of a similar orbit, and only a small struggle would be needed to transfer between them?

I will take another look at this later if I have the chance.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-14 18:22:19)

Void · 2022-06-15 09:04:35

Well, I have my reasons not to strain myself too much today. Just goofy stuff.

I recall Elon Musk vaguely speculating on what I think might have been ring around the sun. I have been interested in that as well, but it may be that he has something else in mind that what I have.

I used this word and was surprised that the spell checker did not flag it: "cosmopolis". I will Query for it and see what it really might be.
Well, that is too bad: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmopolis_(film)

I will need to come up with something else that would describe it. How about a "Bezopolis"?

So anyway lots of "Worldships" in Earth/Lunar orbits. Some of them may wish to be involved in "Muskifications".

Anyway, if there is a lot of habitation in orbital shelters that could be called "WorldShips", they may indeed sail on light and perhaps the solar wind. It is possible I believe in some cases for these to travel inwards towards the sun, but it is easier to travel outward away from the sun.

These same "WorldShips" might have mass driver functions as well, and so might use them to send loads sunward or other, and might even expel material in some cases for propulsion as well.

I have tried this before, but I would like to consider a chain/ring of WorldShips around the sun, with a period matching that of 1/2 a Martian year. I think that might make sense, (To a degree).

Isaac Arthur has spoken of cyclers, and has mentioned an alternate name for them, "Castles". I see these however being a little more active than a traditional cycler, and actually traveling mostly in modifications of a relatively circular orbit around the sun.

How long the Martian year? https://exactlyhowlong.com/how-long-is- … s-and-why/
Quote:

Exact Answer: 687 Days

So, ~half of that would be: 343.5 days, which then needs a ~circular orbit that is slightly inside that of Earth, and it's L4 & L5 gravity pockets. Just for giggles, we arbitrarily could imagine 365 "World Ships" in a ring inside the orbit of the Earth/Moon. The Earth/Moon/L4/L5 would orbit just a bit slower, so that every day, different ones would be "Scanned".

Although you might have small sailing ships that would communicate materials between them you could also have alternate joining's, where your ship would alternately dock to the one ahead and then perhaps the one behind, presuming that sailing on the sun's output allowed it to be practical.

Being active sailing devices, these might be ok for the gravitational passings of real worlds, (Earth/Moon). Able to correct.

While a great deal of artificial worlds might be around Earth and the Moon, there could be some of these in a ring as well.

And then you might have real Cyclers, that can dip down to that ring periodically and we hope also the Earth/Moon/L4/L5.

These as well may have some means of navigation so they could to a degree alter the item they are going to dip down to next.

Then of course rise up to a periodic meeting with Mars, and it's L4/L5 trojans.

Mars and it's L4 and L5 would probably have "WorldShips" as well.

While mass drivers on "WorldShips" might assist to get mass elsewhere, and particularly inward, it seems likely to me that there could be a mass production of "WorldShips" that would simply spiral outward, and then settle down somewhere further from the sun, and these could carry mass with them for further expansion activities.

How something like Starship would be included, might be that it can travel along with a "WorldShip" somewhere.

Perhaps to a capture to Mars or it's L4 or L5.

Perhaps much further out.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-15 09:50:52)

Calliban · 2022-06-15 12:19:44

I always thought that cyclers were a good idea. I'm not sure why we would want to build a ring of them in a circular orbit around the sun. The whole idea is to transport people from one place to another in a way that is safe and comfortable.
Passengers get to enjoy a shielded and spacious habitat with gravity, without the continuous expenditure of reaction mass and energy that would be needed for a large ship that went from orbit to orbit. Transport from cycler to low orbit and back, can be accomplished using a very compact airliner in space type vehicle.

The dowside is that the cycler orbit is fixed, which probably means many years of waiting between close approaches to Earth or Mars. So cyclers end up being cheaper and more luxurious but less useful in some ways. You end up in a situation where very large batches of people join the cycler at any one tine and may wait years for close approach to their destination. It might be easier if the aphelion of the cycler dipped into the inner asteroid belt. That way, the cycler potentially takes you to a lot more interesting places. But the price to be paid would be higher interception speeds at Earth and Mars.

The Amor asteroids would appear to be a good choices for potential cyclers. We need an asteroid which makes close approaches to both Earth and Mars and has enough mass for shielding and space manufacturing. Water and carbon would be a bonus.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amor_asteroid

Some promising candidates.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/3908_Nyx
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1221_Amor
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/887_Alinda
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1917_Cuyo
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1943_Anteros
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_Tezcatlipoca
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2061_Anza
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/3551_Verenia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/3122_Florence

1943 Anteros interests me. Its reddish spectrum may indicate cometary origins, implying the presence of water and other volatiles. It's orbit is

Aphelion = 1.7968 AU; Perihelion = 1.0642 AU.

We could use mass drivers to reduce the perihelion to say 1.006AU, which would allow the asteroid to pass the Earth at about twice the Earth - Moon distance.

One idea that I like is an Earth - Moon cycler. You board it in low Earth orbit and ride it through the Van Allen belts, all the way to the orbit of the moon. The transfer vehicles to and from the cycler can be very small. But the cycler would fully shield passengers from Van Allen belts and cosmic rays. It would be a comfortable way to travel. It is affordable to do that with a cycler because once established on its orbit, there is no further expenditure of propellant. The cycler also affords strict recycling of wastes into food, fresh water and oxygen. So no consumables are needed for the trip, once the systems are properly established.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-06-15 13:29:10)

Void · 2022-06-15 17:58:55

Another stimulating post Calliban.

I see the good of it. I need to add though that I think that cyclers have usually been considered as being only supported by chemical rockets, and so, it is understandable why some may see a poor return for it. But I think that it should be possible to supply and expand them with robotic freighters, which very likely can be driven by the suns output in several optional ways. But indeed, those might also use mass drivers, also in different ways.

I was just peddling my bike at Leasure mentally. I will address why I like solar rings, but first I want to respond well to your materials.

I like the cyclers for the Earth/Moon. It makes sense. I don't feel that precise calculations are necessary just yet but feel that these cyclers should have some small level of propulsion by means of Solar Photons, Solar Wind, Mass Drivers, and perhaps Laser input from the Moon or elsewhere. I don't see them as being entirely in coasting mode. The objectives for this could be to have some ability to bend the rules to allow unusual convergences, and transfers of mass. I don't care to have precise notions.

I do like your Earth/Moon cycler again as I hope that eventually it could be done for the Jovian Moons. In a similar way to deal with radiation problems to get to them. I have generally given up on all of them except Callisto for the radiation reason, but Isaac Arthur has suggested that eventually humans may want to fortify, the Earth's magnetic field artificially. A much greater task would be to alter the field(s) for the moons of Jupiter.

IO for instance is considered a lost cause as it ground heaves up and down, and it is completely bathed in lethal radiation. But I now really wonder. Could you construct emergency radiation shelters/habs in places on it, and could you give it a very strong magnetic field(s) of it's own? Could you then use cyclers to get people and machines in and out of the envelope? Could you reduce the amount of molecules that go into the Jupiter magnetic field and even make it more habitable?

I recall a Russian had an idea to have a machine that would bounce the molecules out of the gravity well of Jupiter. Not sure that can work.

The point is IO would be a very valuable power plant, if converted, and domesticated.

It's a start. I think it is more than most have dared to think. Maybe more thinking is a valid option.

As for the utilization of the various asteroids, I agree, in fact I think that in general they could be converted to a whole host of small worlds that move about and have conjunctions with each other. There could be quite a few things to puzzle out for that.

-------

As for solar rings, they would be a world(s) of their own. I think Americans can understand this best. Maybe India. But there can be valid arguments in many directions on this.

I do see that true cyclers could possibly eject canisters of water/ice, to these on their perihelion, which might alter the nature of their following aphelion. The canisters of water/ice might come from Mars or even it's moons, (some think).

I have trouble with those words:
https://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/p … stice.html

The solar ring habitats would retrieve those as convenient, using some method of local propulsion and manipulation.

Water and other mass could also eventually come from Mercury and maybe even Venus. For instance, it might be possible to get Nitrogen for those habitats from the atmosphere of Venus.

Frankly I would like the gravity well of Venus itself to be protected by a magnetic field. And huge amounts of these habitats to orbit Venus, to shade it, and to also absorb it's atmosphere. That is a pathway that might terraform Venus and give humans lots of assets without wasting the atmosphere of Venus by simply expelling it.

But before that, a ring of habs just south of the Earth/Moon. A "Sunbelt" sort of. With lots of output from robots, perhaps lots of luxury living for lots of humans. But that is totally speculative.

A string of such habitats in a ~Circle, would be a base for many cyclers to align with during their Perihelions. So, it might be possible for a person to leave the Earth/Moon travel part way around the circle using sunlight or solar wind, and then pick up a flight to Mars. Many cyclers in this scheme would not typically align with the Earth or it's L4 or L5, but some would. The circle would have orbital periods of 1/2 that of Mars, perhaps.

Time Latency is then also a resource. We have a terrible time making humans behave. If they see it they want to grab it. Give a tyrant total knowledge of what is going on everywhere all the time, and the people may well be forced to be minions. With discrete habs, and also cyclers, and the Martian assets, we may inhibit the excessive breeding of males who only have the talents of talk and brutality. And we make it harder for the females to be attracted to Hypergamy. The hope would be a scheme that discourages the fall of the human race into a stone age dominated genome and culture.

I do think that these problems I fear are somewhat evident in older cultures that of course once had a wonderful blooming. only to be feasted upon by the people farmers. (Don't you love it?) I sort of actually think this is so.

Nature does not value intelligence, only procreation and the continuation of pattern. Some humans can be a sort of grey goo also.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-15 18:46:02)

Void · 2022-06-16 07:55:39

I am just dropping this off, an opinion about the future of the Teslabot.

Teslabot would certainly be useful for Terraforming, and to help generate the wealth to pay for humans in space.

I am optimistic for it because I don't think it is likely that the skills acquired to learn to make a Teslabot, and likely to be forgotten, outside of a total disaster. So, this type of product will be an accumulating skill, and so will most likely be able to do useful work making it worth having.

https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2022/04/t … e-too.html
Quote: "Teslabot Abundance on Earth Will Mean Mars Abundance Too"

I am going to look into some of the asteroids you recommended Calliban.

I will venture that Teslabots might generally function in space with less gravity, atmosphere, and radiation protection than humans.
So, the shelters they might work in may be much cheaper than the ones that would be needed for humans. This applies to worlds, like Luna, Mars, and Mercury, and of course also to orbital shelters as well.

------

Caliban said:

The Amor asteroids would appear to be a good choices for potential cyclers. We need an asteroid which makes close approaches to both Earth and Mars and has enough mass for shielding and space manufacturing. Water and carbon would be a bonus.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amor_asteroid
Some promising candidates.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/3908_Nyx
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1221_Amor
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/887_Alinda
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1917_Cuyo
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1943_Anteros
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_Tezcatlipoca
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2061_Anza
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/3551_Verenia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/3122_Florence
1943 Anteros interests me. Its reddish spectrum may indicate cometary origins, implying the presence of water and other volatiles. It's orbit is
Aphelion = 1.7968 AU; Perihelion = 1.0642 AU.
We could use mass drivers to reduce the perihelion to say 1.006AU, which would allow the asteroid to pass the Earth at about twice the Earth - Moon distance.

I guess the question of water might not be as hard as it has seemed in the past.
https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/dawn-vest … d-minerals
Quote:

Dawn: Vesta Got Special Delivery of Hydrated Minerals
Sept. 26, 2012

I suppose Vesta or Ceres could be a source of water, but I think that maybe the Earth Trojans might do as well.
WIKI for "2020_XL5"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/(614689)_2020_XL5
Quote:

Physical characteristics
Photometric measurements of optical observations from 2020–2021 show that 2020 XL5 exhibits a color resembling that of carbonaceous C-type asteroids. Assuming that 2020 XL5's phase curve behaves similarly to those of C-type asteroids, the absolute magnitude (H) of the asteroid is 18.6, which corresponds to a mean diameter about 1.18 km (0.73 mi) for a typical C-type asteroid's geometric albedo of 0.06.[7] This makes 2020 XL5 the largest Earth trojan asteroid known to date, being up to three times as large as the 0.3 km (0.19 mi)-sized 2010 TK7.[7]
Because 2020 XL5 is only visible at low altitudes in the sky during twilight, atmospheric distortions and scattered light from the Sun hinder accurate photometry of the asteroid's light curve, thus information about its rotation could not be determined.

For other readers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-type_asteroid
Quote:

Characteristics
Asteroids of this class have spectra very similar to those of carbonaceous chondrite meteorites (types CI and CM). The latter are very close in chemical composition to the Sun and the primitive solar nebula minus hydrogen, helium and other volatiles. Hydrated (water-containing) minerals are present

So, I also think that maybe Mars or Phobos and Deimos could supply water.

So then the stony asteroids you have considered are valuable due to their orbits, which are close to the ones that might be wanted.

-------

I have also been thinking about Venus and Mercury. Of course Mercury is a very hard target to get to, but once manufacturing and mass drivers were established, both water and building materials could be obtained for the orbits, and perhaps even the clouds of Venus.

I think if this approach was decided for, it would still be a long time for Venus to ever become a green paradise. However the amount of orbital habitat could be immense. There is a phrase for a reverse Dyson Sphere around a planet.

This might cure a lot of ills for Venus. It could shade the sun side and hold in heat on the night side, and also of course orbital mirrors could put light into spots on the night side.

Gradually puling the atmosphere of Venus into these orbital structures, of course there would be an excess of Carbon and Oxygen, but also a lot of other things like Nitrogen. The Carbon could go into orbital structures, and the Oxygen might become a propellant in a great degree.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Venus
Quote:

Atmosphere of Venus
Venus
Cloud structure in Venus's atmosphere in 1979,
revealed by ultraviolet observations from Pioneer Venus Orbiter
General information[1]
Height 250 km (160 mi)
Average surface pressure 93 bar (1,350 psi)
Mass 4.8 × 1020 kg
Composition[1][2]
Carbon dioxide 96.5 %
Nitrogen 3.5 %
Sulfur dioxide 150 ppm
Argon 70 ppm
Water vapor 20 ppm
Carbon monoxide 17 ppm
Helium 12 ppm
Neon 7 ppm
Hydrogen chloride 0.1–0.6 ppm
Hydrogen fluoride 0.001–0.005 ppm

It might be possible to use Sulfur in orbit but I think it will have vacuum and temperature related concerns.
https://www.technologyreview.com/2016/0 … -concrete/

I am thinking that if you removed the atmosphere of Venus then Venus would outgas/erupt more atmosphere from it's crust.

So, I think that getting the planet to be an Eden paradise is likely to be very long term or not at all, but as a planet to mine gasses from it would be great. And it might eventually be sensible to even mine non-gas materials from the surface. That remains to be seen. I would think that Asteroids and Mercury might be preferred for that.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-16 08:39:56)

Void · 2022-06-17 06:48:35

~Boo!

Void · 2022-06-19 08:32:02

I am looking at several things together:
-Mushrooms
-Boring Company
-Lava Tubes
-Chemicals from the Martian environment
-Concrete

And other stuff. I guess this is to a large extent for/about Mars, but not totally. You could grow mushrooms in a orbital habitat or Ceres for instance.

------

Atmoshere Gas, life that feeds on atmosphere:
https://www.iflscience.com/microbes-tha … tica-57042
Comments:

I think that for certain Red Dwarf worlds, photolysis could be the base of a food chain, provide an atmosphere could be retained. Perhaps plants would never show up. Life then might prefer to be under water, or in the shadows.

Mushrooms:

Query: "Mushrooms eat oil"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Mu … &FORM=VDRE

Specficic: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Mu … ORM%3DVDRE

https://www.spores101.co/Mushrooms-can- … 3%20months.

Ancient Mushrooms:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne … -13709647/

Query: "When did mushrooms evolve?"

https://phys.org/news/2020-01-mushrooms … ntil%20now.
Quote:

According to a new study led by Steeve Bonneville from the Université libre de Bruxelles, the first mushrooms evolved on Earth between 715 and 810 million years ago, 300 million years earlier than the scientific community had believed until now.

Query: "How much Oxygen does Mushrooms need?"

Response: https://totalgardener.com/mushrooms-req … %20balance.
Quote:

Do Mushrooms Require Oxygen to Grow? (Solved!)
Edible Mushrooms / By John Stephens / October 6, 2021
Mushrooms do not need oxygen to grow. Mushrooms do ‘breathe’ and exchange gases directly with the atmosphere, but not oxygen.
High humidity causes the fungus to suffocate by disrupting the gas exchange balance.

I was deeply surprised about this! But it does say that some Oxyen can be beneficial to the mushrooms to somehow rid themselves of unwanted pathogens?

More, perhaps a bit ambiguous: https://findanyanswer.com/do-mushrooms- … en-to-grow

https://www.mushroom-appreciation.com/g … ilure.html
I think that it tends to be said, that Mushrooms need some Oxygen, to stifle "Anaerobic Bacteria" which can choke them off.
But Mushrooms need less Oxygen than humans.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=does+myce … FORM=QSRE3
Quote:

During their incubation period mycelium can actually tolerate high levels of CO2 but require respiration so as to not promote bacteria who can tolerate no oxygen. The filters allow for gas exchange but now allow contaminants in during incubation – they are sealed using a poly bag sealer in front of the flow hood.
Mushroom information - Midnight Harvest
www.midnight-harvest.com/the-basics-of-mushrooms/

Comment:

I was really surprised at the relationship of Mushrooms to Oxygen as spoken in the above notes. If this is true then the Mushrooms are anerobic themselves but have a symbiotic relationship, (Sort of) which Oxygen which is a toxin for the bacteria's that cause it trouble. And the Mushrooms do not need as much Oxygen for that as our atmosphere provides.

For some time, I have been promoting the idea of growing Mushrooms on chemicals. I am still a bit confused about the metabolism, but it appears that Mushrooms need Organic or Abiotic Hydrocarbons, interchanges with atmosphere, Oxygen to poison some Bacteria, and humidity and some other things.

So, chemical sources may be from the atmosphere. Maybe even the tiny percentage of O2 and CO or maybe processed atmosphere and water with energy from solar or Nuclear.

Calcium Perchlorate, I think could be a source of Oxygen as is known, but also can Concrete be made in part from the Calcium?

So then Lava Tubes. Some have said, do not try to pressurize lava tubes. Of course there can be cracks, the potential for cave in's and possibly blowing the roof off. I think those things could be managed.

For instance some type of concrete, cement could be used to patch cracks. You might put supports inside, and you might have a plastic liner, or metal film liner.

To prevent ceiling blow out, you might pile more regolith above a lava tube, to weight it down.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=La … &FORM=VIRE

Many have collapsed. However the shield volcano's, might have deeply buried ones that did not collapse. I am thinking that layer after layer of lava flows. So it might be like sponge????

Possibly places to have chemically driven Mushroom Farms?

And then the Boring Company: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Wh … &FORM=VIRE

It appears that the Rift Valley, the Shield Volcano's and a big deposit of icy soil exist at the equator.

The volcanos would likely be hard to bore into. But layers in the rift valleys may be easier, and the ice layers easier still.

A civilization where landing can be facilitated by relatively thick atmosphere in places in the Valley, and Mass Launching off of the volcano's.

That is enough for now.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-19 09:40:50)

Void · 2022-06-19 10:06:03

Based on the previous post also:

And this as well: Atmosphere Gas, life that feeds on atmosphere:
https://www.iflscience.com/microbes-tha … tica-57042

While Mushrooms could be fed with organic matter grown, perhaps under sunlight, or Oils produced abiotically with machines and energy, I have been interested in a gas fed chemosynthesis method of farming.

Microbes might indeed be used, but I am, (And have been for some time), more interested in Mushrooms.

This could be dangerous because you would be dancing with the dangers of explosions and fires, but it may be possible to stay within safe limits for LEL and LFL.

Some such farms might have "Air" in them that humans could breath, some not so much.

Air pressures might be manipulated and also gas mixes.

To introduce a fuel, I think it might be good to simply inject Hydrogen, Methane, and Perhaps Carbon Monoxide into the soil at a sufficient rate that the biology in the soil would consume them, and so to not allow a buildup of an explosive or flammable situation. CO of course will present a poising potential for humans.

The Oxygen level could be kept low to help reduce the chances of fire or explosions. The Mushrooms would need some Oxygen though.

Fuels for Mushrooms that are more storable would be frozen or freeze dried vegetation, or possibly liquid fuels, perhaps non-toxic oils.

But if the CO can be extracted with "Gills" from the Martian atmosphere, then that could be sourced all the time, even in dust storms.

There could be various sources of Oxygen, perhaps even with "Gills". Also, Perchlorates as a source during dust storms or all the time.

Query: "Heating a mixture of steam and Carbon Dioxide to get fuels"

Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Heating+a … e10a5e7b98

Here I am more interested in solar thermal to create fuels from Martian atmosphere and water vapor.

I think something of that sort is possible, maybe also using a catalyst.

But where most of these articles speak of creating liquid fuels, I just want something like a very crude natural gas. That could be cooled and introduced into the soil for Mushrooms to consume.

Not 100% sure it can be done, but I think maybe.

So, the hope would be that if you had Heliostats, they could be configured for various purposes, and one of those then to synthesize a very low grade fuel as a gas mixture that Mushrooms might be able to consume. And no I don't know. But if so then a gift for Mars and other places in space.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-19 10:23:45)

Void · 2022-06-19 12:56:02

An interesting Query: "What was the first Fungus? History of the Earth".

I have a suspicion that it may be that something ancestor to Fungi could have lived in the soil, should there have been minority gasses available such as Oxygen, Methane, Hydrogen, and CO. Maybe other.

I suppose stuff that washed up on the shorelines would have attracted such life.

Video: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Wh … M%3DHDRSC3

I think that possibly for Mars, it may be that a degree of terraforming might jump-start a biosphere, perhaps strongly of Fungi.

The scheme could be to evaporate the CO2, to allow for greater humidity, and to get water vapor into the high atmosphere, and to seed high clouds with dust which would have catalytic properties.

Then the atmosphere of Mars being a bit thicker, and having useful gasses, might permit Fungi, even in the flux of U.V. The bigger part of the Fungi being underground. However, I don't know if the Mushrooms could endure the U.V. I suspect that ancient forms could tolerate it.

But there is more to learn.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-19 13:00:47)

Void · 2022-06-21 17:30:28

I suppose it is a stretch to talk about hardware in the Terraform section, but no if you are going to "Form" something, then you need tools.

Here is an interesting one from the Angry Astronaut. Mostly about the Vulcan and Centaur.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Th … &FORM=VIRE

I am going to listen to it again and then I have some ideas, good or bad that I will put here.

Well, I think that is a good video.

I think he has some very good ideas.

Something popped into my head concerning water during the Video.

We have seen projections of a Lunar Starship, which will be presumed to have landing legs. I am tempted to think that perhaps this one could be a one-time use machine, in some cases. The would allow it to carry maximum cargo, and then upon landing to not need refueling of Methane or Oxygen. It would simply be repurposed on the surface of the Moon.

I think we could call the Starship that SpaceX is currently working on "Hanger Starship", as it is not to have legs, and is to land on it's hangers.

So now the Centaur, as I understand it is Hydro-lox.

I am wondering if Hanger Starship can provide its propellants, but in the form of Water to Orbit?

So, the fuel depots would have 3 tanks. Water, Oxygen, and Hydrogen. And of course you would have to break some water into Hydrogen and Oxygen as needed.

The water though then can serve to better protect space stations with humans, as one possibility, to reduce radiation dose over time.

But we also have the possibility of steam thrusters in orbit for various needs.

So, storing water as a propellant also can fit into that scheme: https://steamjet.space/steam-thrusters- … t%20longer.

I think that Starship could bring water to LEO, with a dedicated incorporated tank or with canisters, or both. The canisters should be designed to be useful if repurposed. Either directly or by feeding the materials though a 3D printing process.

While having to split water into Hydrogen and Oxygen, in orbit will be additional trouble, I think it is true that boil off problems can be reduced, and safety increased both for assent to LEO and for LEO operations.

And we might also think that water could come from the Moon or eventually even Asteroids.

This would leave the need for a Lunar Lifter that would probably run on Hydro-Lox to get to orbit and down, but might also use steam power when in orbit.

Transferring water from the Moon to LEO would be much easier than to transfer Oxygen and Hydrogen.

If it turns out Phobos and Deimos have a lot of water, then this scheme would likely make sense for transits Earth<>Mars.

This could be really interesting if the works of ULA and SpaceX ended up being connected in a major method.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-21 18:16:52)

Void · 2022-06-21 18:30:59

This is a continuation of the previous post.

In the question of any type of Starship, I think orbital Centaur tugs could be of great value.

For instance if you did want to get a Starship back off of the Moon, you would only need the Methane to get to a minimal orbit, provided the Moon resources could refill the Oxygen to boost to orbit.

Then Centaur methods could be used as stages to bump Starship back to Earth. It is a possibility as well that a Starship of that sort would aerocapture to Earth LEO orbit rather than to land. (Most of the time).

Such a Starship might have cargo holds on it's landing legs, rather than inside of the ship. The legs would have to be folded into a protected area, if aerobraking to Earth LEO.

It is even possible that the Starship would return to Earth LEO without it's legs, and would receive new ones when cargo is being attached to it in LEO. Those legs then left behind on the Moon, would then be repurposed on the Moon.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-21 18:35:09)

Void · 2022-06-21 18:48:16

If this were done, I wonder if we would use only abiotic methods?

I am thinking that greenhouse facilities in LEO and about the Moon and Mars, else....., could directly produce Oxygen and food in orbit(s), and then organic matter might be a source for Hydrogen, and then where needed Methane.

People do run on Oxygen and food. Then the waste materials to be a source for Rocket Fuels.

Done.

Void · 2022-06-22 07:50:33

This morning I am thinking of Lasers and water for propulsion.

If they can heat the water to a plasma and manage not to wreck their machines, then this is not a low grade type of thrust.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_pro … l%20rocket.

And I believe that kbd512 mentioned lasers and a aluminum plate somewhere recently.

......

I think this is a case where a lot of variations can be considered.

You might have a 2 stage orbital ship, where stage 1 does very powerful thrust from lasers on a "Space Station".

Then stage 2, might have its own means of propulsion after that, perhaps even it's own lasers with thrusters.

The ease of handling water, and the possibility that it can be gotten from several different worlds, may make this attractive.

Of course I am not suggesting launching from a world surface in a deep gravity well, but LEO and other orbits might be just fine.

Breakfast time.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-22 07:50:56)

Calliban · 2022-06-22 12:03:28

Water has low molecular weight, so is an efficient propellant. One potential problem with heating it to very high temperature is the generation of oxygen ions through dissociation. This becomes a problem at temperatures greater than 3000K. Ammonia may be a better propellant.

tahanson43206 · 2022-06-22 12:26:04

For Calliban re #322

This may be a departure from Void's topic, so it may be better to continue in another topic.... however, my question is:

Why is disassociation of the water molecule a problem? Both hydrogen and oxygen are rendered as lower molecular weight entities, so they ? should ? provide higher ISP (a) and (b) once ionized, they should be subject to electric (probably magnetic) acceleration to achieve even greater ISP.

If another topic is preferred by Void, I'd like to offer the Physics topic.

(th)

Void · 2022-06-22 13:15:28

(th)
You are welcome to form a specialized topic for anything you like here. I like to have people post here as well. In intended that this topic would be generalized and not specialized.

Calliban. Ammonia sounds good. Water though is more compatible with humans, and more available. But I get it, if you can get a better kick with Ammonia, there may very well be reason to also use it at times and places. Ammonia may also offer radiation protections.

I am liking water for having so many applications and not having a large boil off problem.

The number of applications look like they would be rather large.

While I think that Laser plasma with water or Ammonia is far off, it is worth considering in my opinion.

The Moon, Phobos, or Deimos, may eventually have enough stored energy infrastructure to produce such a useful energy projection.

Not to say that something could not be put in Earth orbit, but for now I am quite excited about the notion of Starship and Centaur working together, and for there to be landers for the Moon of various types.

I am imagining that if you had stations with water tanks and solar panels or nuclear power, you could manufacture propellants in a just in time fashion. So, you would not have to use strong shading and active cooling for the water, or ammonia, and would have relatively small amounts of cryogenic fluids at one time.

This sort of disagrees with the idea of an Amada of ships every ~2 years to Mars, but it needs some work, all of it.

To some degree though this looks rather good for access to the Moon.

And the Moon has water and Oxygen for propellants, and might eventually have a array of lasers as well to do a send off to Mars.

I took a look at what the space shuttle engine temperatures were. Not far from what you spoke of Calliban, provided the numbers are metric.

https://www.nasa.gov/returntoflight/sys … e%20Center.
Quote:

6,000 degrees Fahrenheit (3,315.6 degrees Celsius)

I think that it might be possible that magnetic nozzles would be used as well to keep the plasma away from the machines?

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-22 13:26:43)

Void · 2022-06-22 13:41:43

A further argument I might make for Starship to lift water and Carbon separately is that the Superheavy/Starship is already a potential bomb, but water might dampen the damage in the case of a mishap. And of course water is easier to handle.

I guess the same could be said of dry ice.

But then of course you have to make your Hydro-lox or Metha-lox propellants in orbit.

I am very much a fan of promoting the linking of hanger-LEO Starship with Centaur, and some types of Lunar landers.

One weird scenario could be that Centaur(s) could push Starship to the Moon and from the Moon. Then you would only use Starships main propulsion methods for landing on Earth or the Moon.

Also, I am sort of fond of the notion of aerobraking to LEO from the Moon some times.

Also, I think it would be nice to have some small Lunar Landers.

Well, it is very open to speculations.

What is the relative size of Centaur and Starship?
Centaur:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centaur_( … n%20rocket.
Starship:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpaceX_St … 20%5B20%5D

Apples and Oranges. I might look at it more later.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-22 13:47:24)

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